Datasets:

BEE-spoke-data

/

falcon-refinedweb-100k_en-xlong

like 0

Follow

BEEspoke Data 40

Touched in the Head A Tale of Characters, Clowns, and Imaginary Misfits Based on a Number of True Stories Rebecca Reitz Touched in the Head Rebecca Reitz dedicated to the staff and employees at Clowning Around–Celebration Authority, as well as the children (including my own little fledglings) who request the presence of characters and clowns at their events. The Roots of Ahchoo The loyalty exhibited by imaginary friends is a precious gift. Their tried and true support is often the catalyst for their creation. What may be most curious about the phenomenon; however, is the fine line between whether the creator thinks the pal is fictional or non-fictional. Be it the former or the latter, does not hold much significance as long as the friend is there during the dark hours, smiles without a grimace, banishes high fructose corn syrup, and so forth. The “so forth” holds a lot of weight, as the boundaries and qualifications of the make-believe friend are ever evolving, which is the reason it is the pal of choice for so very many. The mind naturally designs a tutelary companion by default. However, when I was in search of the ultimate imaginary comrade, I was unaware that I was even doing so. As a young girl, I had a few imaginary friends, all of whom served various reasons at various times. Yet in the years between 1998 and 2002, I searched, but unknowingly at that moment. How could one be looking for something yet not realize it; and thus does that even constitute a fair search? I say yes, and I know it is bizarre; however, such remains the case. It wasn’t until years later that I looked back on those four years as a type of experiment. An experiment to find an ideal imaginary friend. Therefore, anyone out there may have embarked or be “embarking” on the same journey, but not truly know it yet. So this is a story within a story; not only a double adventure, rather a universal diatribe that is to resonate with others out there in their own right…be they real or imaginary. It’s just a tale of being on the lookout for the ultimate buddy, my tale happens to involve costume characters and clowns, real ones that is, as will soon be revealed. Yes, I worked in the children’s entertainment field and truly did have the chance to be surrounded by a multitude of fuzzy creatures, some of which were potential imaginary best friend candidates. Most importantly, however, bullying is now at a despicable level and more people than ever feel ostracized. So being one’s own best friend often ends up as the ultimate solution to a companion search. When in doubt, trusting the self and not being influenced by others is the way to happiness. This is critical to remember if on a friendship quest. Though may it be said, imaginary pals rarely bully, so typically this is a safe path to travel down as well. All this aside, plastic costume heads and drippy red noses await, so may the roots of this tale now proceed… When I was three or four years old, I began to understand the difference between literal and figurative meanings within the English language. It started out small such as when someone said to me, “You’re so nervous, I can see your heart beating.” I knew full well that my heart is one of the internal body parts and the idea was just meant to create a chuckle. That little saying, however, only induced more anxiety on my behalf and a brief look toward my chest cavity to make sure my previous “heart knowledge” was still valid. Yes, it was inside my body and therefore invisible to onlookers. My goodness, I was only three, I needed the verification. This understanding of the literal and figurative continued onward as in the case of one of the only times I came in excessively late as a teenager. When my 16-year-old self popped through the door at 2:30 am to both sets of my parents’ weary eyes, they said, “where the hell have you been, we’ve been running around everywhere in search of you.” At that moment I knew they were the ones lying. As if they had actually ran to Jewel Osco (where I had been by myself, why that late remains locked in my 16-year-old mindset) and then ran back home to sit there all proper and concerned. Ran. Right. I doubt they had left the couch to make more than a few phone calls. Now as an adult my years of practice in the use of literal and figurative forms of expression has arrived at the creation of this book’s title. “Touched in the Head” chronicles the four years I worked as a costume character and clown for a company in Illinois known as Clowning Around - Celebration Authority. Why the title? Well, literally it represents the way in which some pint-sized party attendants would hit the costume character’s head as vigorously as possible while I wore the costume. Often the parents and other adults at the event would find this hysterical. At that point, given the parents’ behavior, I realized how the children had come to be like they were in life. While underneath all the plastic and mounds of fur on my body, I began to grow doleful about the state of society. It can be rather unsettling to have one’s visibility obstructed by the mesh inserts in the character’s eyes, yet know it is imperative to see for the sake of one’s own safety. As employees we were instructed to remove the costume’s head should the little debacle proceed, however, I never did. My reason? I felt bad for the children at the event not engaged in this malevolent practice of physical violence. As need be noted, most of the children usually were delightful minions, but the exceptions certainly left their impact. On the flip side, “Touched in the Head” figuratively signifies the manner in which people, including myself, can be labeled as “crazy” throughout different times in their lives. For me, one of the reasons I was branded with the label was for my work as a clown. Some adults felt it necessary to give snide remarks about the job followed by laughter that was supposed to indicate just how they felt about the profession. Others discovered I was paid $40 an hour and instead of being congratulatory on that fact, decided to belittle the job in an attempt to erase their own jealousy. My answer was for them to join the ranks, put on a red nose, and earn the same dough, however, they were just too good for such nonsense. Yes, “Touched in the Head” is an ode to the suffering endured by all clowns. I worked at Clowning Around-Celebration Authority from 1998 until 2002 while I was 20 to 24 years old and attending school. This fact is simply noted for memory sake, as one of the magnificent aspects of the job is that age is not a factor. In my opinion, age needn’t be a prerequisite for any career, however, being a children’s entertainer is a position in the work force in which the infamous digits truly have no significance. Consider the facts. Does it really matter if the human that occupies the costume is 20 or 80? No, it does not, as long as either party can endure the near-desert-like temperature one’s body will reach as a result of wearing the furry character. Does it really matter what age individual packs on layer upon layer of circus make-up? No, it does not as long as one can accept that he or she will appear ghastly distorted even at 15 or 83 and undergoing intense Botox therapy. My clown name was Ahchoo and given I have an obsession with names, I was more that elated to have the opportunity to name myself once again. It was as if I had been teleported back to 1978 and could declare another title along with the more traditional, Rebecca. I decided on Ahchoo. As part of my “clownly duties” I would have to enter homes. I am allergic to lots of “stuff” within those habitats including animal fur, dust, pollen, mold, and the number one culprit, cigarette smoke. On that note, it was quite anomalous to work with those who had a penchant for puffing on tobacco. Some of the images I was forced to endure while in the line of duty were positively heinous. For example, most costume characters came in three parts – the head, the body, and the feet. Costume characters often did shows in groups and during lengthy parties a break was needed in order to avoid collapse. I would be outside with the head off just to get a breath of fresh air. Suddenly I would look up and see half of a Winnie the Pooh puffing away on a Marlboro. My, my, my, a fellow employee dressed in the furry, tan, pear-shaped suit complete with the red t-shirt and huge, paw-like feet. Only Winnie’s head was missing and in its place was a human face only too happy to get a few drags in on our ten minutes of ventilation. Given that almost all of us employees worked as both clowns and costume characters, this type of behavior also ensued when we were clowns. Only the head didn’t come off and instead I got to watch as the spawn of Bozo went through a pack of Newports like they were candy. It was quite a disturbed scene. Habits, even the killing kind, can be hard to break, but if one cannot quit as Mickey Mouse, is there any hope to quit when simply staring one’s own “human reflection” down in the mirror? Hopefully that question will encourage further research. A most convenient aspect of the job was the fact that employees could take on as many gigs as desired. In other words if a gig was offered, one had the choice of whether to accept it, so some weekends I worked eight events whereas others maybe only a couple. The company was great in understanding clowns had lives too. Primarily almost all work fell on weekends due to children’s birthday parties, holiday celebrations, corporate picnics, and related events often being scheduled on Saturdays and Sundays. Gigs varied in terms of length with some of them only being 45 minutes with others lasting up to six hours. Summer was the season of lengthier extravaganzas often due to the picnics. Some corporations went all out for the employees and their families, and hired a group of ten of us to bring cheer to the day. One question, in which I still get inquiries, was how I got into this line of work. It all began when I attended school and my boss’ sister was a fellow classmate in a Social Work course. In this particular class, role plays were necessary in order to “practice” our counseling skills. For example, one of us would play an addict and the other an empathic counselor at the Local Y. We also videotaped these scenarios in order to replay them as a means of intellectual feedback on our techniques. During one of these altruistic technologically based endeavors, I had to be an individual on the autism spectrum. My boss’ sister had possession of the tape in which this occurred, and she watched it with her brother, who would later become my boss. He stated he liked my realistic portrayal of an autistic woman. He then asked his sister to inquire about whether I wanted a job, because costuming and clowning requires acting skills. I was in search of employment and agreed to come in for an interview as the compliment had been kind. Upon my arrival I found my boss to be as delightful as his sister. No joke. They were both terrific people, as was their Mom and his Wife, both of whom also owned the company and do so to this day. I did get the job, but at the actual shows I would sometimes grow shy and not do much acting. I often, however, overcame that obstacle and was always solicitous to the partygoers. So it all worked out. When on the pursuit of an imaginary friend, ideas from the movies somehow come to surface quite frequently. The cinema comes forth in all sorts of ways, whether it be searching up and down the aisles for the friend itself, creating one from a character in film, or any number of other odd occurrences. This cinema phenomenon took place in the year 2000 for me… Tonight, Hilary Swank is up in the Best Actress category for her role as Brandon Teena in “Boys Don’t Cry.” I keep worrying I am going to miss the Academy Awards show altogether. Right now it’s Sunday evening and my final party is scheduled with another associate at the home of an affluent family. The party is located about an hour from my home. I am to be Woody from “Toy Story” and the other employee is to be his best pal, Buzz Light Year. The two of them are quite a duo and I don’t believe the rumors about them being gay. Not that I even mind, as I think that would be very sweet and a great example of why gay marriage should be legal, but still the rumors have no basis. The trouble with the show is that Buzz Light Year is running late because he has been at another event and has now gotten caught in traffic. I know, Buzz Light Year almost flies in the films, but in real life he drives a used car that carries the potential for a shut down at anytime. I’m worried that I’m going to miss the Oscars. It’s a pity as I know the employee playing Buzz has close to the same interest in the Oscars as well, but first we have to perform among the many partygoers. I loved “Boys Don’t Cry” so much and just have to see if Hilary Swank is going to win. The thought I may miss the opportunity creates a lot of sadness, so I might as well make do with the circumstance to the best of my ability. Given Swank is a woman who played a man I feel as though my Woody get up is a nod to her incredible performance. I too am a woman about to dress like a man, a cowboy nonetheless. As opposed to waiting for my associate to show, I jump on the host’s offer to meander about her home until I find a place suitable for my transformation. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t have to stuff my jeans or anything, but I have a lot to do before I can convince the three-year-olds I am in fact a man named Woody. His name is misleading. It sounds like just the title that will require a stuffing of the old Levis, much less for a “hired party entertainer,” but that’s not the case. All I have to do is put on the boots, of course the jeans, the bandanna, the large Velcro western belt, the plaid shirt, the cow print vest, the tie around the neck, the large molded head that looks like Woody, and the cowboy hat. So I put this apparel and accessories over my street clothes and stand in front of the mirror in the Master suite. I begin to practice standing like a man, walking like a man, and try hard to tuck my long-nailed feminine hands into the cuffs of my shirt. The last part becomes more difficult to do once I start pretending to fire guns as though in a Western shoot-out. Though I feel I have respect and empathy for those who are transgendered, this experience brings it all to such a deeper level. My fun, or should I say work, comes to a close once Buzz pops thru the door and dresses as speedy as hell. We do the show. We make it to our televisions in time. We watch the Oscars. Hilary Swank wins the award. This experience is certainly one to treasure. It’s now a year later, March 31, 2001, to be exact. I get to do a show as Buzz today and my significant other is going to be Woody. Given it’s the date before the infamous April Fool’s Day makes everything seem so surreal. Something about this 24 to 48 hour time frame causes everyone to go a little mad. You’ve got people who haven’t laughed at a joke for years somehow devising the most elaborate of schemes. I have deep seeded theories about the reasons April Fool’s Day is so popular. Some people simply like to play jokes. Others love to laugh. Some hop on any holiday no matter how strange it is just to celebrate. And the last group simply like the trickery. The individuals who comprise this final collection of people are downright filthy liars in their everyday lives. They’re just happy an entire day each and every year is devoted to their insanity. The thought of being able to tell lies and not be called liars, but instead mask the craziness with a simple statement like “April Fool’s!” creates an adrenaline rush for them like no other. It’s the liars that could really get to me if I thought long enough about the whole scenario. These pathological liars are some of the most contemptible people in this world, so I prefer to think they don’t truly get enjoyment out of the day whatsoever. They’re probably quite narcissistic and therefore too busy getting jealous about all the other people getting to tell lies as well. It’s sheer madness. At any rate, it’s March 31, 2001 and I have a typical day ahead filled with two shows. The first is of the costume variety and the second is of the clown variety. Given the initial show is to begin around 1:30 pm I am going to leave the house around noon. A lot needs to be explained when I say I am going to leave my home for the day because so much organization always goes into being prepared for the weekend. First, although I like to wear make-up of the regular kind, meaning Maybelline as opposed to Moscow Circus Mud Mash, I still have to carry a large clown make-up bag with red crayons, blush, red lip balm, white crayons, glitter lip balm, blue crayons, black lip liner, baby powder, baby shampoo, a powder puff, a make-up brush, wipes, paper towels, and plenty of bobby pins. Baby powder works to seal the make-up on the face and the baby shampoo works best to remove the make-up after the sealing is completed hours earlier. It’s a secret of the trade. Next, I bring an enormous boom box that can play my cds or cassette tapes at the shows. I have to remember extra batteries, the electrical cord in case even the new batteries fail to work, plus the cds and cassette tapes themselves. In addition I place plenty of change for tolls, directions to each of the shows, my address book, regular make-up, a regular change of clothes, bottles of water, the contents of my purse, my cell phone, balloons, temporary tattoos, air pumps, prizes, games, face paint, and of course the costume characters and clown outfit themselves. I drive a Chrysler Neon that is cranberry in color and is a little under a year old. My automobile prior to the Neon was a grey Pontiac Bonneville which I had driven since about 1995. All had gone semi-well with the Bonneville up to when I accidentally backed into a fire hydrant as I ran late for a Big Bird show. It’s a terrible feeling to try and hold up as Big Bird for 45 minutes when severely worried that your car has been totaled, much less by a fire hydrant. Unfortunately the car was not totaled, so I had to drive it around for over six months with the one side looking like a Hot Wheels crash-up mobile. It was the fire hydrant incident that lead me to purchase the Neon. Speaking of car accidents, there are a few tidbits of information about them in general that I would like to share. Given the accident also took place while I was on a cell phone, there are a few tidbits of information about cell phones I want to share as well. Automobile accidents are a weird phenomenon in life. What’s even weirder is the way one’s perception of them evolves throughout time. As a child, even the tiniest of fender benders carry enormous importance. Everything becomes measured on whether it happened before or after an accident. This is understandable when devastating crashes occur, but little bumps hold the same weight. Children view time itself in a way that is entirely different from adults and so events are the only means of defining say a day in February versus a day in September. Plus accidents are highly traumatic to children no matter how severe they are as they cannot believe their parents actually told the truth. Yes, I think a lot of kids, including myself at one time, simply thought that accidents were being used as a scare tactic. Cars really couldn’t crash together, the idea was just some fabricated tale meant to stop siblings from engaging in high pitched shrieks, hair pulling, arm twists, incontrollable laughter, crayons up the nose, and so forth, all while in the back of the family station wagon. So when an accident did take place it was cause for bewilderment. It was none of that tooth fairy hocus-pocus, it was the real deal. Thus the complete shock of it all certainly was memorable. These memories were cause for a re-telling of the accident even at family parties. Never mind that the parents had given a strict lecture about the importance of not talking about the accident around anyone they knew. Children do not disclose information to be vindictive, however, it’s just the shock is too much to bear so the information explodes. I understand it, I just wish it wasn’t reality, at least in terms of minor fender benders. Teenagers downplay accidents at almost any cost. Now that my teen years are far behind, I can easily declare my feelings on this issue without worry that I have disowned my own kind. No offense to teens, as in a way I feel sorry for them, however, some of the ridiculous stories they concoct are truly an act of either complete desperation or utter craziness. My teenage self once included, there is for some reason a dire need to cover one’s tracks with elaborate stories that usually end up blowing everything up out of proportion even more so then they need to be. Take it, I did not go down this route often, but I can recall a few times where I now look back and wonder what the hell I was thinking. For example, one time I was on a first date in the city of Chicago and the back of my car was slammed by a taxi driver who had swerved to avoid some lunatic on the road. There was significant damage to the back of one side of the car and all parties involved had to go to the police station. As opposed to simply stating the facts, I made my parents pry the information out of me in a way. Take it, the accident was entirely not my fault and they knew I was on a first date, but for some reason the urge to avoid trouble (even though there was no way I would be in any) overtook my rational mind. Questions like “How bad is the damage done to the back of the car?” were answered with statements like, “Alright. But even the police say everyone has been getting their cars hit lately. They think it’s an epidemic or something.” How the hell does that answer make any sense? From the “alright” to the epidemic scenario, the reply is just silly. Alright, good? Alright, bad? Which way does even the first word of that answer swing? Now adults have a tendency to dwell on every other fact of an accident as long as no one has died. They will always bring it up as a point of reference and say stuff like, “Well, I don’t know why some people would even think of switching lanes without a turn signal and do you know my yearly insurance deductible went up $200 because of that goddamn incident?” The accident is discussed, analyzed, and dissected on every level, except of course when in front of anyone they know, as noted above. Cell phones, cell phones, or mobile phones, whatever they’re called. I have grown to like mine again despite a short ban on wanting to ever own one for awhile. It’s true though, it’s best not to use them behind the wheel, especially when one considers the types of conversations many people have these days. I think some individuals would even ask for a divorce via text message on their way to work. That should not go on for any number of reasons, driving included. I often think back to when they were called car phones and poke fun at the primitiveness of it all. That “car phone” business seems like ages ago, yet it was really only when I was a teenager and could easily pick it up to begin one of those elaborate accident stories. All of this cell phone talk reminds me of a time not so long ago when the mail had created a fury. Snail mail, or the USPS, or traditional mail, or post mail, or whatever one chooses to call it, is becoming rather dated. I love the “regular mail” as much as I adore email, however, I sometimes feel like it is the landline/house phone of the written communication world. Well, about five years ago or so, the primitive correspondence arrived, which accounts for this little tale... The bright neon postcard sat quietly on the kitchen counter, though the intent of its arrival, was meant to be anything but tranquil. Electrified orange always left a mark, an imprint of sorts on those it touched. This time around, not only did the color scream at me, but the message it delivered did so as well. In bold typeface it confirmed the details of my 10-year high-school reunion that was to last four hours, complete with dinner. My guess is that the meal was to be eaten without assigned seating, which of course meant salad may have to be consumed next to the individual who once thought it was funny to whisper obscenities as I read “The Color Purple” aloud in class. If I arrived late, I wouldn’t have a choice as to where to sit, and therefore could be stuck anywhere, which is exactly how I felt in high school. Stuck anywhere and everywhere all at once, with thoughts of going nowhere looming on my mind. My goodness, the emotions a little postcard could stir up, I only imagined what a full length flyer would have created. Such unique timing the austere notification had, as I recently had found out I was to become a Mother again. I would have two under two, a handful that I would love, yet a handful nonetheless. As a student I had taken Parenting. Would others scoff at this remembrance and comment as to why I had children so close together, being sure to note that siblings should be separated by so many, such and such years. As I fed my 10-month old on the couch, staring vaguely into the kitchen at that postcard, I realized I didn’t care if they did, yet I also realized I may not want to be trapped in the same room as those who do. Ironically, or perhaps maybe not, orange had been one of my school colors. Orange and navy blue. The colors were most apparent on days of pep rallies as I scurried though the hall trying to decide if I should go to the spirit festivities or sit in the lunchroom with the gloomy crowd whose colors were black and gray. Over the years I was one of the only ones to do a little of both. Not belonging used to hurt, but now at 28, I embraced the concept as my identity. Uniqueness was simply that, it also didn’t have assigned seating, be it a gymnasium or cafeteria. A decade prior my 5-letter maiden name graced the pages of the yearbook; and now my 11-letter married name would serve as my place card should I attend. My Mom sequestered me on occasion to simply drop some of the letters in my new Mrs. title. In other words, make-up my own last name. However, I explained this wasn’t easy to accomplish in a legal fashion, so she would have to make do with what I was tossed at the altar. It seems the postcard lurked around the kitchen and served as a reminder of all that had changed, but hinted at what had possibly not. Would I go? The answer was left to be seen in the weeks ahead. I gathered the orange notice and put it safely in my purse. I sat on the couch in my navy blue shirt and black pants, read “Harold and the Purple Crayon” to my son, and reluctantly smiled knowing how arduous it would be to teach my two under two all 11 letters of their last name. And reflecting on that postcard scenario now, I realize my new last name is splendid; however, it does look a little awkward on my cell phone bill, or any bill for that matter; but now on with the clown chronicles… As stated, today is the final day in March of 2001 and I just woke up in my room, which is located in my parents’ home where I still reside. Earlier this month I had taken my first and so far only trip to Europe. It had lasted nine days, the country I traveled to was England, and I felt highly fortunate to have had the experience. I never went on spring break or have been to any other continent, so this was a real special excursion. So today I am still a little confused as to what country I am in, as traveling always seems to baffle the hell out of me. I decide to look out my window and since there are no castles or double decker red busses I am safely assuming it is The United States. I hope my theory will prove to be right. Usually once arriving home from a trip this back and forth bewilderment only lasts about a month. So, I figure by the middle of April all should be back to normal. I walk into the bathroom in order to start getting ready for work and notice there are large circles under my eyes. Given I am to be Buzz Light Year today I let out a sigh of relief. For one, the plastic head will in fact cover my head and therefore my face. Second, if I am to truly be in character, I have confidence that Buzz would not let circles under his eyes get him down, so I will need to throw vanity aside. But, I am a bit worried because later I am supposed to dress as a clown. If the circles are too severe I may just come off as a sad mime trying to moonlight as a clown in order to support a drug habit or something. What to do? What to do? I tap my fingers on the counter. I don’t have any answers except to shower, get dressed, and hope for the best, so this is what I do on this April Fool’s Eve. When I say get dressed, I do not mean a business suit or even a pair of jeans. The kinds of clothes that all of us at Clowning Around wear under costumes are typically items that most people sell at their yearly garage sale. I almost always wear a white t-shirt or green work shirt from Sears and a pair of stretch pants I bought as an eighth grader and wore on my first day of high school. Given I am now 23 years old, they are a little worn down. It doesn’t matter. Given the fibers of the pants are near evaporated, they allow for air to circulate to my legs which is a requirement when dressed in hot costumes. On another note, I am not about to bother with make-up yet as I know it will sweat off and just get all over Buzz’s interior facial features. I do not want to do that to Buzz, to the employee who will next have to wear the costume, or myself. As I mentioned, I later have a clown show and will have to re-apply my foundation, powder, and mascara if applying it before The Toy Story sweat marathon. So now I am ready (pajama-like clothes, wet hair, and uncovered circles under my eyes) and go downstairs to the kitchen. Despite being “ready” I have to eat breakfast and pack up the car. One of the unusual, scary, cool, Gothic, freaky, eerie, funny, unique, disgusting, etc. aspects of the costume characters is how they are packaged. Each week, I make the trek up to the office near the Wisconsin border and pick up my supplies for the weekend. Aside from grabbing extra face paint and balloons for my clown endeavors, I have to get the costumes themselves. For example, this week I got Buzz and Woody. As I may have noted before, my boyfriend is going to meet me at my first show. The party host has beckoned the presence of both of the lead stars from Toy Story in order to help celebrate her son’s sixth birthday. So earlier in the week when I arrived at the office, Buzz and Woody were sitting there for me in large, plastic, dark-colored garbage bags. Probably of the Hefty variety or something. Buzz’s head and hands were in one bag with helpful tips on how to get to the show tucked inside his head. In the other garbage bag was his torso and feet, though the feet had gotten separated for a moment, so it looked as though Buzz had endured blunt trauma to his gams the week prior. Fortunately, his other foot was hiding behind the bright green belt he wore to give his physique more definition. So all of his body parts were located somewhere in the two garbage bags. Next was Woody. His realistic features peeking out of his respective garbage bag gave off an appearance that he in fact was an actual dead body that Clowning Around had uncovered from the warehouse. His head and all of his goodies only needed one bag as his outfit could be folded neatly beside the other body parts. Woody’s attire wasn’t bulky at all. He was fit and trim, a real modern day metrosexual, despite the whole 19th/20th century Western get-up. All of the costume characters are placed in garbage bags when they need to be transported by any of the employees into their cars and thus to various shows. It is rather creepy, but also clean and efficient. The large warehouse in back of the office is the storing grounds. In a way it looks like a serial killer’s treasure chest. Heads line Rubbermaid shelves. Torsos hang from wire hangers. Hands and feet rest on the ground in an organized fashion, except for the occasional separation, which causes a foot or finger or something to end up in the employee bathroom. My boss’ mother typically takes charge of packing it all up for each of us and she even sprinkles cinnamon scented deodorizer powder on the heads. This is in case some employee has done the ultimate no-no and placed the feet inside the head and left them there for a couple of weeks. Disgusting! The powder kind of seems like human ashes though, which only adds to the serial killer feel all the more. So, bodies in bags are just another perk of the job. Back to April Fool’s Eve, I load Buzz and Woody into the backseat of my car along with all of my stuff I later need for the clown show. After that I say good-bye to my family and take off. The best route to the first show, which is about 45 minutes away, begins on a street called 143rd that later transforms into The Midlothian Turnpike. From this point forth I will refer to it as The Midlothian Turnpike as it sounds more accident prone than the rather bland 143rd street. Along the Turnpike the speed limit is 45mph and there is a little yellow sign that shows a person riding on a horse. It’s unbelievable to think anyone rides a horse along this road, but apparently the sign indicates this is a regular happening, so go figure. In my opinion horses don’t mix with automobiles zipping by at 45mph but then again a graveyard is near so at least the deceased humans will have a place to rest and the horses could just hitch a ride to the nearest pet cemetery. The graveyard is called Bachelor’s Grove and it is nationally famous for being a haunted site in America. I first went there in the 8th grade on a field trip. It was a two part deal where all of the students got to browse around Bachelor’s Grove and also Rubio Woods which is right across the Turnpike. Given all of the crazy stuff people try to pull off among the tombstones on a yearly basis, a Buzz or Woody resting in the weeds would just seem like a normal occurrence. Fortunately though, they remain in my car as we pass the cemetery grounds. Bachelor’s Grove truly is quite mystical and I like that the swampy pond that sits at its’ side is visible from the street. Tiny houses that were built in a cluster also sit in the forest that lines each side of the Turnpike. As a child I remember hearing rumors that the houses belonged to a cult. Actually they are just part of a camp grounds often used by The Boy Scouts. At any rate the Turnpike is a rather interesting road to travel and this experience is simply making it all the more surreal. I decide to call my boyfriend from my cell phone in order to discuss how we will meet at the show. As noted earlier, I am to be Buzz and he is going to be Woody, so I will simply refer to each of us by those characters as I describe our conversation. Buzz and Woody’s exchange goes something like this (I have allowed myself a bit of artistic license). Buzz says, “Hello, it’s me, are you there?” Woody says, “Yeah, mmm. I’m here. “How’s everything going?” “We just talked last night, nothing has changed much since then.” “Oh yeah, I know, I am just asking to see how you are.” “Well, I’m fine, so don’t keep asking me all of the time if I’m okay.” Flash ahead for a second to the present day again. As I proceed, please remember that Buzz and Woody no longer have a relationship. Also, I was struggling with intense OCD thoughts at the time as I was attempting to drive and talk on the phone all while worried that I may someday get the urge to run over the cute little ducks I just seen crossing the road. OCD is such a hassle. For one, I loathe the thought of violence toward people and animals. Second, I didn’t get violent urges, I just worried that one day I would wake up with them. Third, I’m a vegetarian and wouldn’t even get any meal out of the whole thing anyhow. So there would be no satisfaction across the board. Yes, obsessive-compulsive thoughts are horrendous! I am proud to say I have found a way to manage well with the condition for the past 10 or so years. So, no more concerns for the most part, about Huey, Duey, and Looey crossing the street. Back to the conversation in 2001. So Buzz (which is actually me) then says, “Okay, well, I just left my parents’ house and I can meet you at the show in about an hour.” Woody replies, “Sounds good. I will do so.” “Do you need the directions or anything like that?” “No.” “So, then I have a clown show later, but I thought we would meet up afterward for a $1 show and stuff after that.” “Why? Toy Story isn’t playing at the $1 show.” “I know, I know, but we could see something else and watch Toy Story on DVD after we go to the theater.” “There’s nothing I really want to see.” “Well, I might want to see a drama or a comedy or something. We don’t always have to watch the movies where we are the lead characters.” “I just like to see myself acting and all.” At this point I know I should be getting off of the phone as I shouldn’t be on it in the first place, given I am driving and all. Aside from the OCD thoughts, driving, phone conversation, etc., I also start to ponder why the English drive on the opposite side of the street. (Given I just got back from my trip I really do want a logical answer). In other words, with all of the above carrying forth, too much is now going on in the car! As the conversation proceeds, I begin to approach Cicero and The Midlothian Turnpike and drive into the left hand turning lane. While still on the phone I glide into the middle of the intersection and when the light turns green for some reason my brain clicks that I can turn left. Well, it isn’t a green arrow, it is just a green light and the oncoming traffic has the same shade of green that I do, so they begin to drive forward as well. I turn left on to Cicero and BOOM!!!! My arm bangs into the steering wheel and I let out a small scream. The phone disconnects. Suddenly, I realize I have slammed into another car. The traffic coming from all four directions comes to a halt as green fluid begins to pour out from the front of my car. Given Buzz’s tendency to have hints of green throughout his attire, as well as his alien loving spaceman qualities, it almost appears like the liquid is in fact spewing from him. He has either peeded himself, vomited, or gave a donation at the local sperm bank that just happens to be at the intersection of Cicero and the Midlothian Turnpike. So, the green liquid keeps on pouring and I realize that the left hand side of the front end of my car is demolished. As I get out I suddenly remember I have wet hair, no make-up, pajama-like clothing on, clown accessories that look like I am planning a bank robbery in the front seat, and what appears to be dead bodies in the back seat. In the excitement of the accident these things had temporarily left my mind, until my foot hits the pavement and I realize people in cars are staring at the entire scene. Worse yet the driver of the other car is a male senior citizen, but fortunately he is the only one in the vehicle and neither of us is injured.

PARALLEL: PART TWO By Christopher Kneipp Published by Christopher Kne Andrew and Anthony Who inspire me daily to be all that I can be. Prologue The Blue Gum Forest had fallen silent, after the thunderclap that accompanied the escape of their quarry. Tyrren’s ire was written across his scarred face. A trail of blood drew a red line from his remaining eye, like a crimson tear rolling down his right cheek to the corner of his mouth. For a time his bloody sneer twisted the corded scars that his Parallel had given him. In his hand he held the blue Sea Stone, its glow now faded to nothing. “Damin, take Fynz and find if there’s anyone left on this planet that’s important to him,” he snarled, dropping the aquamarine into Damin’s hand. “Grae take Stew, Red and Folly and stay here. Tell me immediately if anything happens. “Everyone else come with me.” He turned and vanished without another word. The remaining followers began pairing off, those who could teleport transporting those who could not, joining their master in the ether. “Bloody camping trip while everyone else gets to go and do stuff,” Grae complained. “Just do what you’re told, Graeme,” Damin smirked as he held onto Fynz. “Let’s go Fi.” Fiona blew Grae a kiss and vanished, taking Damin with her. Hidden on the north coast were Mark’s parents, Kathy and Peter. They had no idea what was coming. * * * * * Chapter One: Between. Mark fell forward, the light swallowing him whole and then there was nothing. No sun or stars, no ground or sky and no sign of Angelie or Matthew. The pack on his back felt weightless and in his hand he still clutched the quarter staff that Matthew had given him. Beyond these things was a vast and endless emptiness. There was a sense of movement, not like falling exactly, but the feeling of motion just the same. As bizarre as the Between was, Mark could only think about his friends. “Matt?” he called into the void, but there was no reply, only silence. Not even an echo. “Angelie?” Time had no relevance as the limitless fall continued. Without anything as a reference, it seemed to be eternal. Where was Matthew? Was he lost in the endlessness, alone like himself? “Matt,” he called again, straining to hear some sort of reply. There was nothing as the free fall continued. Then he heard something. A distant sound, like the mumbling of a crowd, though the Between still appeared to be empty. “Hello? Matt? Angelie?” he called. “Garodine?” The Between fell silent once more. “Is anyone there?” he shouted. Initially, Mark thought he was seeing things, but soon it became apparent that a multitude of glowing wisps were appearing from out of the emptiness around him. Most kept their distance but one came close to him, like a curious child. “What's it?” Mark heard the voice in his mind, unsure of what it meant. “Please I won’t hurt you,” he pleaded out loud. “I just need to talk to you.” “Ooh,” one of the misty creatures commented. “It speaks like a, live thing. We talk too, yes?” “No. Bad thing. May not friendly,” another wisp objected. “Friendly sounds it. I talk too.” The first cloud said and ignoring the second’s fear it began changing, taking on a semi-human form. It looked more like a ghost than a person, while the other luminescent wisps kept their formless appearance and their distance, fearful of this intruder in their netherworld. “What if eater? Will eat up you,” the second creature warned. “You mind-broke. It no eater. Too hard. Too here.” Then the ghostly figure addressed Mark, asking, “Want what you, live thing?” “Who are you?” Mark asked. “We are Corronell,” the apparition replied. “What are you? “I'm a human. My name's Mark, but they call me Rane Fax,” Mark answered, guessing these things were probably more of Quell than of Earth. “Ahh! You the Hope of Worlds. Heard about you, have we. You peace bringer to every all thing. Yes. Why you now here in the no-place? You take eaters away now?” “What's an eater,” Mark asked. “Eater is nothing maker. Corronell consumer. You take away, forever and long time. Foreverman tell us you coming.” “Yeah well, there are a lot of things I'm supposed to do, but right now, I need your help with something.” “What Corronell can do for you, live thing?” “There are two other people who came into the Between with me. They're friends of mine,” Mark began. “Ooh, yes. They them are here. Dielf and other like you, live thing.” Mark's heart leapt at the news, “Are they alright?” “Elfish one is gone out way now, she knows out way. Other live thing going no-place. He don’t know where he going.” “Can you help him to find the way out, please?” Mark pleaded. “He already long lost. Maybe he stay here with Corronell and Foreverman.” Without warning the mood of the moment changed. “Eaters!” came the sudden cry. At the utterance of that name the clouds scattered every which way in panic. A single combined scream filled Mark's mind with the Corronell’s pain and confusion. Mark gripped the quarter staff tightly in his shaking hands, awaiting the arrival of this unknown threat. After a moment he saw it emerging from the void, rising up from below him. The sight revolted him. The eater was a formless, sickly green light that oozed like mucus, spreading itself flat, surrounding one of the Corronell and enveloping it completely. The terror of the eater's victim, its mental scream, assaulted Mark’s mind before the powerful wave of its emotions crashed over him, leaving only emptiness where that Corronell had been. A second eater arrived, and then a third as the Corronell franticly tried to avoid the green monsters. Still more eaters arrived, melding with each other until the Between seemed filled with the putrid green mass. Mark felt the familiar rage rise within him, as the Corronell's desperation filled his senses. As had happened before, an unbearable pressure grew in his head, threatening to tear him apart from within. The ring on his finger burned in sympathy with his uncontrolled emotions and his vision began to blur. “Rane Fax, help them,” Mark thought, fighting against the growing pressure, but there was no response. Ignoring the pain he gathered all of his fury and focused on the vile creatures. The taste of blood filled his mouth, confirming the cost that his Elae’s were exacting from him. There was a bright flash that exploded over the nearest of the eaters, engulfing its amorphous body in white hot flame. A second eater burned brightly as the first had done, the fire destroying it utterly. The pressure had gone and Mark felt himself beginning to black out. A third eater attacked, enveloping Mark's body. Even in his half-conscious state he could feel the malevolent creature draining the life and strength from him. Suddenly he felt a surge of power and the eater was destroyed, blasted into nothing by that force. The power felt different, like it had not come from him. Mark saw the remaining eaters fleeing, though he could no longer distinguish what was real as the damage took hold. He could taste the blood that filled his mouth, felt it trickling from his nose, eyes and ears but it was like a dream. All reality was stripped away. “Hold on, Mark,” Rane Fax whispered weakly. “You must be conscious to pass through Jarod's Door and I am spent.” Through blurring vision, Mark saw the Corronell returning, surrounding him one by one. Warmth flowed through his shattered body and he smiled at the beauty of the dream as the lights embraced him. “Hope is broke,” the first Corronell said. “No fear you need. Corronell take you home.” There was something, Mark thought, something important. Something he should remember but all he wanted to do was to slip into the arms of unconsciousness. Then he thought he heard Rane Fax whisper one final word, “Matthew.” “My friend,” Mark groaned, barely able to force the words from his bloodied lips. “Save him.” “He go out other where. He be safe. Corronell do for you friend. You show eaters first ever knowing of fear. We never forget.” Mark, his sight failing and his thoughts barely coherent, could not tell if it was moments or hours that passed before he felt something solid take shape beneath his feet. “Welcome, Rane Fax, Worlds' Hope. Welcome home,” a woman’s voice greeted him. The need to retain his senses was now gone and he allowed his injuries to overwhelm him. He felt himself falling forwards, many hands catching him. “Mark!” he heard Angelie scream. His last thought was, “She called me Mark.” * * * * * “Drink this.” The woman's voice was kind, as something was held to Mark's lips. Warm liquid was drizzled slowly into his mouth, the flavour was sweet at first, and then spicy, like ginger. He swallowed the draught, feeling its warmth flow through his body and out to his extremities. Cautiously, Mark opened his eyes and raised himself up on his elbows. Surveying his surroundings he saw that he was in a room, the fire burning in the hearth and a flickering candle were the only sources of light. There was little in the way of furniture, a table, three wooden chairs and the bed that he was lying in. Before him sat a woman who looked about ten years younger than his mother, with olive complexion and dark eyes. Her long, thick hair shone in the firelight, dark brown with copper-red highlights. “Let me guess. You'd be Eitsrik, right,” he smiled weakly, his voice full of gravel. “Yes, I am she.” The woman smiled, bowing her head slightly in acknowledgement. “I see that Angelie has spoken of me.” “Yeah, a little bit. She called you Mahtia Ghia, Mother of Healing. Guess that means I made it out of the Between alive.” “Yes, but you will need to rest a while longer. You are still weakened by the journey.” “How long have I been out to it?” Mark croaked. “You have been in my care since your arrival at the zenith. It is mid-dark.” “What about the others? Are they okay?” “Angelie is well, though she has been greatly concerned about you. Had I not sent her to rest, she would be here still.” Eitsrik paused for a moment before adding “I must tell you however that Jarod's Door has been closed and your friend did not emerge. I am sorry, Rane Fax.” “Could he have come out somewhere else?” Mark asked hopefully. “The Corronell said they’d help him.” “That, I am afraid, is unlikely,” Eitsrik said with a note of finality. “Even with the help of the Lights, without an Elae, he is lost to us.” Despite her insistence, Mark did not believe it but he said nothing. “Now you must rest and regain your strength. You have faced great peril to come here and I fear that more is to come. The Corowine that I gave you will heal your spirit as well as your body. It will make things clearer and prevent sorrow from overwhelming you. You must sleep now and allow it to do its work.” “No, seriously, I'm okay.” Mark struggled to sit up, but the room seemed to spin and he was forced to lie back down. “Sleep,” Eitsrik smiled, touching his forehead with a gentle hand. “There will be the opportunity for questions in the new sun.” Softly, she sang in a language that Mark did not recognise, but the tune was sweet and despite his former assertion, he was asleep in a matter of moments. * * * * * “Rane Fax, the Worlds' Hope, Answer the call.” “Garo?” Mark responded, as the young Kasdtien emerged from the darkness of his dreams. “There you are at last, my boy. I'm glad to see you made it through the Between okay.” “Barely, but yeah, I'm on Quell, though I'm apparently out to it again,” Mark said. “What's happened?” Garodine asked. “Do you mean back on Earth, when Tyrren and a bunch of his mates tried to kill us, or in the Between, when something called Eaters turned up.” “You've seen the Eaters?” he said, alarmed. “Are you alright?” “Yeah, I'm fine. They don't take to being set on fire too well,” he answered matter-of-factly. “I’d guess you’re right,” Garodine said. “Well it seemed to make the Corronell happy, anyway.” “You spoke to the Lights of the Between?” Garodine asked in an awestruck tone. “You're full of surprises, young Mark.” “Yeah, well I surprised myself, but nuking the Eaters nearly killed me.” “You've got to learn to draw your strength from elsewhere, Mark. The way you've been doing it will destroy you.” He paused, “Are you sure you're okay?” “Look I'm fine, stop worrying. Eitsrik gave me something to drink called Corowine to make me sleep, though I'm not sure talking to you counts as resting. “I've got more important things to ask you,” Mark began. “Angelie said there was more than one way out of the Between, is that true?” “Yes, in a manner of speaking. I have made other ways out upon the Earth. Why do you ask?” “My friend Matthew jumped through the door before we could stop him and I want to know if he could have come out somewhere else?” “Unlikely I'm afraid. Without an Elae to guide him through the between, I would hope he dies quickly at the hands of the eaters if I were you.” He shook his head, “Better that than starving to death.” “No. The Corronell said something about him going out somewhere else. Do you think that means they helped him?” Mark asked hopefully. “The impossible is all that is impossible, the old saying goes. You are a shining example of that, my boy. You survived the worst that the Between has to offer.” “I think Rane Fax helped me, but it did something to him. He sounded weird and said he was spent. Does that sound crazy?” “No more insane than standing here talking to me in your dreams,” Garodine quipped. “Now I should let you rest, or Eitsrik will not be pleased.” Already fading from sight, Garodine added, “Welcome home.” With that Mark was left to his dreams, and they filled his sleep until morning. * * * * * Chapter Two: Gar Fall Mark awoke to the crowing of a rooster somewhere outside the hut. The fire in the hearth was out, reduced to fine grey ash. He guessed that it was about five o'clock, as the pre-dawn light slipped through gaps in the wooden shutters. On the morning air was the scent of blooming flowers and a hint of spring, suggesting the day would be bright and warm. His first thoughts were of Matthew and the question of the Corronell’s promise. There was nothing he could do about his friend’s fate so he tried to push his apprehension to the back of his mind for the moment. A walk would clear his head, perhaps. Finding his backpack in the half light, he pulled out some fresh clothes and got dressed in shorts and a t-shirt. He pulled on his socks and running shoes and left the bungalow. Stepping through the creaking wooden door and out into the grey morning light, he surveyed up and down the dirt road. There were thirty-or-so small wooden cottages lining the unpaved street. Each shack had a thatched roof and a small vegetable garden out the front. Beyond the town, in the distance was a mountain range, familiar to him as the one in his painting, the snow-capped peaks crimson in the dawn light. “I see you are awake at last,” Angelie spoke from behind him. Turning, he saw her, smiling at him as she leant against the corner of his cottage. She was dressed in a simple, white shift, with sandals on her feet, and her loose hair falling over her shoulders. At her hip was a hemp bag, woven in a single piece, the long strap going around her neck and across her back. “Don't you ever sleep?” he asked. “Obviously not as much as you,” she retorted, with a wry smile. “Welcome home, Mark.” “Thank you,” he said, “and glad to see you remembered my name.” “It still sounds strange to my ears. I have always known of you as Rane Fax, the Worlds' Hope. It is difficult to now use another name for you,” she said. “You'll get used to it. Just think of it as the name of your friend, okay?” Mark suggested. “I know I'd feel a lot more comfortable with that. It's a bit hard to take all the talk of prophecy and stuff, you know?” “My friend?” She mulled over the idea. “Yes, this I can do.” She smiled at him and Mark felt a sudden flush in his cheeks. There was something different in her demeanour and it caught him off guard. She was relaxed. “Would you like to see Gar Fall?” Angelie offered. “Come with me and let me show you your home.” “That'd be good,” he accepted, glad of the distraction. “So this place is called Gar Fall?” “Yes. The village is in the Plains of Dao, between the Rydus Ranges and the Dragon's Spine, on the banks of the Rydus River.” As they walked, Angelie pointed in the direction of each landmark as she mentioned it. There was a glimmer of something in Angelie's expression as she led him through the village, the meaning of which he could not quite glean. At the edge of town was a wooden footbridge that passed over the Rydus River, beyond which, was a path that followed the watercourse downstream. Low shrubs on either side bore flowers of red and blue and trees shaded them from the early morning sun. They followed the well-trodden path down river, the further they walked the louder the sound of falling water grew. At the track’s end was a large, open rock ledge that overlooked a massive sink hole at the edge of the river. Much of the Rydus’ water poured deafeningly into the pit, disappearing underground leaving what remained of the river to continue beyond the landmark, reduced to a quarter of its original size. “What is this place?” Mark yelled, overwhelmed by the thunderous roar. “This is Garodine's Falls. It is said that he created it long ago, though he remembers neither why nor how it was done.” Angelie was pleased to see the wonder in Mark's face. Mark marvelled at the spectacle as the water disappeared into the darkness far below the lookout. Spray from the falling water rose to meet the morning sunlight, creating a rainbow arch that spanned that great abyss. “Come, there is more to see,” she said, pulling on his hand and dragging him along a dry tributary. The creek bed looked like it had not felt the touch of water for many years. Leaving the river and waterfall behind them, they made their way along the sandy stream bed, the thunder of the falls subsiding the further they went until Mark could barely hear it at all. The sand squeaked under Mark’s feet as Angelie lead him along the empty watercourse until they reached a grove of trees that surrounded an ox bow lake. “It's a billabong,” Mark said, “I’ve only ever seen one of these before.” “Bill-a-bong?” Angelie laughed, the crystalline sound making him smile. “What a strange name,” “There are legends about places like this, back home,” Mark said. “It's where bunyips are supposed to live.” “What is a bun-yup?” she asked, struggling with the pronunciation and frowning. “Nobody's really sure. It's like every description's different but they’re big and scary.” He struggled to explain the indigenous myth. “They hang around places like this and sometimes drown people who go swimming in the water.” “Ahh. Perhaps this will help you to understand.” Dropping her bag on the bank, she turned towards the billabong and sang a single, clear, high note, holding it steadily for what seemed like ages. When she had finished, there was a long pause and Mark waited expectantly for something to happen. Soon, the surface of the water began rippling, though there was no breath of a breeze. Then, from the near side of the billabong, a shape began to rise from the water. Formless at first, a dark creature rose up from the dark waters. As tall as a tree, its great head took shape, broad and terrifying, with water falling from its tooth filled mouth like drool. The monstrous body rose up over the top of them, blotting out the morning sun. Mark was petrified by the horrible creature and he staggered backwards, falling helplessly to the ground. “Tira riory, Imsoola!” Angelie called in a scolding tone, while in Mark's mind he heard her thoughts. “Enough foolishness, Imsoola!” The beast responded to her scolding by falling apart, bursting like a huge water balloon that sprayed water heavily over them both in a drenching shower. “Miro riorie.” Angelie's thoughts were translated as, “Very funny.” Mark's former terror gave way to fascination as his mind translated her words. He was not interpreting the language, instead knowing the phrases' meaning. “Show yourself, Imsoola. Do not embarrass me in front of the Worlds' Hope,” Angelie demanded. From one of the surrounding trees, came a small light, glowing like a minmin light or a will-o' the wisp, flying down over the surface of the water towards them. As it approached, it grew, taking on a form similar in features to Angelie. “This is the Hope?” Imsoola gushed. “He's cute.” “Imsoola, behave,” Angelie chided her. “This is Imsoola. She is an Aquidae, a water wisp, though a very badly behaved one. They are the guardians of the waters here on Quell.” “Um, hi,” Mark greeted, getting back onto his feet, a little embarrassed by the fear he had shown at her original appearance. Imsoola, in her guise as a Quide girl, glided up to him and kissed him playfully on the lips, making him blush. “Tiora ne Imsoola de riory se, Rane Fax?” she asked. “Are YOU offended by my foolishness, Worlds' Hope?” She giggled, seeing his obvious embarrassment. Mark pretended not to understand the flirting nymph, looking to Angelie for some hint as to how he should respond, but she bore a dark expression on her face that he did not comprehend. “Imsoola, show respect. He is not your plaything.” Even if he could not have read the thought, the tone of her voice made her anger more than clear enough. Imsoola smiled slyly at Angelie saying. “I think someone else is wanting him for their plaything, perhaps?” “Be gone you wicked sprite. I bring Rane Fax to you as an honour and you repay me with your innuendo.” Angelie seemed genuinely hurt. “Pray, forgive me Angelie of the Farshyhn, no insult did I mean you. Be at peace and welcome to my waters.” And with a bow of her head to Mark, Imsoola became a wisp of light again, skimming away over the water and back out of sight among the trees on the far side. “What the hell was that all about?” Mark asked as he bent down to pull off his wet shoes. “That was Imsoola being playful, but she has given us permission,” Angelie said as she moved next to him. “Permission to do what?” Mark asked, baffled both by the conversation and by Angelie's crooked smile. “This!” she said, suddenly pushing Mark towards the water. Though she had caught him off balance, he managed to grab hold of one of her arms and the two of them tumbled backwards into the lake. It was cold, making Mark's skin tingle as he stood waist deep in the dark water. Angelie broke the surface several metres away, grinning and doing a backstroke, prepared for any retaliation. After the initial shock wore off, Mark scooped a large splash of water at her. He removed his remaining shoe and his socks, throwing them onto the bank before diving in after her. Laughing, she swam away, but he was a stronger swimmer than she had realised. Soon he managed to catch her foot, pulling her under the surface before swimming quickly away to the far bank. Clambering onto the sand he called out, “Safe.” “Safe?” Angelie asked, “What do you mean, safe?” “Bar. Time out,” he said, sitting down. “Give me a break, it's bloody cold in there.” “Coward,” she laughed. Joining him on the beach, she lay down beside him and closed her eyes. Mark watched the strange girl as she lay on the sand with her forearm covering her eyes, a half-smile on her face. For a while they did not speak, bathing in the gentle peace of the moment, as the morning sunlight filtered through the trees and the birdsong echoed around the lake. After all that had happened, Mark felt the weight of his fears lift. “You’re really different now than you were back on Earth,” he said, breaking the silence. “Nor are you as I had expected,” she said, looking up at him from under her arm. “Better or worse?” Mark asked. “Different, I was in awe of your legend, but of you...not so much,” She laughed. “Thanks.” He laughed also. “So am I better or worse?” she asked. “Different,” he answered. “I don’t know. You were always so intense back home but now you just seem happy.” “This is the place where I feel most at home. Wherever I go, however far away I am, the memory of this place brings me peace,” Angelie said with sudden seriousness. “You know, I wish I had a place like that,” Mark said. “This could be yours also, if you would like,” she suggested. “Thank you, I think I'd like that,” Mark said. “In fact, thanks for everything, I don’t think I’ve said that, have I?” “There is no need.” “Yeah, well thanks anyway,” he insisted. Angelie stood and brushed the sand off herself, saying, “We should return. The Fasdtelae will begin arriving soon. Eitsrik will wish to discuss our plans for the defence of Jarod’s Door.” “And what exactly are our plans?” Mark asked, standing and sweeping the sand from his backside. “That is for you to decide,” Angelie said simply.” “What?” Mark's uncertainty broke like a dam. “I haven't got a plan. Until a week ago, mid-year exams were my biggest worry. Now I'm supposed to have a plan?” “Do not worry. Remember that you are not alone in this war.” “How am I going do this, Angelie? I don’t even believe in war, I mean, seriously. I'm not a soldier. Hell, if anything I’m a pacifist,” he said. “Do not despair,” she said, reaching out and touching his cheek gently. “You were born for this. Whatever is, you are ready for and whatever will be, you will be ready for also when the time comes. You are not alone, Mark, nor are you powerless.” “Everyone keeps saying that, but I can't even use my power without it killing me. Every time I use an Elae, it's like I'm barely holding on. They just burst out.” His voice was filled with fear but Angelie looked into his eyes and smiled. “Then I will teach you.” For an odd moment Mark wanted to embrace her but he resisted the urge, still embarrassed and confused by his own feelings and those to which Imsoola had alluded. “Um, err. Yeah, thanks,” he stuttered, trying to recover some composure. “Come, we should go back. They will be missing us soon,” she said. They walked around the bank of the billabong. Angelie collected her shoulder bag, while Mark retrieved his wet shoes and socks before they headed back to the village. * * * * * Mark and Angelie returned from their swim and sat on the steps of the Long House. The building was the focal point for the village. Thick wooden pillars, broader than his body, rose on each side of the entrance. Stained in mahogany red, every inch of them was covered in intricate carvings. It was reminiscent of something Mark had seen in pictures of New Zealand. The heavy doors were open revealing a large table inside, with many chairs around it. It was an impressive statement about the people of the village. Soon Eitsrik brought breakfast over to them, hot cheesy bread and something brown in a bowl that Mark did not like the look of much. Mark, Angelie and Eitsrik ate and talked together for a time, the mood remaining light until Eitsrik said, “We must begin your training, Rane Fax.” “Yeah, I figured that’d be coming,” he answered with a sigh. “I don’t suppose we could hold off for a little while longer?” “No,” she answered bluntly. “The other Fasdtelae have been given word of your return and are travelling as we speak. You have much to learn before the War Word is given.” “What’s a War Word? Is that like a declaration of war or something?” he asked. “When it is time, the Circulate will issue the Word to all the races and we will oppose the Ty-Cahn. Until then, we are honour bound and no aggression may be shown by any member of the Council.” “What if the Ty decide to start something first?” he persisted. “We are not unprepared!” Eitsrik said bluntly and stood up. “Yeah well I am,” he answered under his breath. “The Fasdtelae will begin arriving soon, we will discuss this further when they get here. I have preparations to make.” Eitsrik took their plates and went back into the long house leaving Mark and Angelie alone. “Is she mad at me, Angelie?” He asked in a low voice. “You should guard your tongue, Mark. Eitsrik is not your enemy,” she said. “I know. I’m just a bit freaked by everything.” “Do not carry the morrow’s burden this sun,” she said. “That’s easier said than done. “So, what are the other Fasdtelae like?” he asked, changing the subject. “You will have to meet them for yourself when they come,” she said, standing. “For now you will need more suitable garb. Go, dress in sturdier clothing and I will come for you soon.” “What’s happening?” he asked. “You will just have to wait and see,” she answered. In her eyes was something that looked a little like mischief. * * * * * Chapter Three: New Things Angelie had come to collect Mark from his hut soon after he had changed out of his damp and sandy clothes. Taking her at her word, he wore jeans, a tee shirt and shoes, expecting that he was going to need something made of tougher stuff than his nylon board shorts. She took him to a large saddling yard near the edge of the village. It had rough-hewn wooden rails and the air was laced with the distinctive smell of horse sweat and manure. “What are we doing here?” Mark asked. “We are here to find you a mount,” Angelie said. Mark recalled his last riding experience. The horse had bolted, throwing him off in the process, leaving him bruised and battered. He did not like horses. “I probably should tell you that I've never been very good with horses,” he said nervously. “I've only ever been riding a couple of times in my life and the last time didn't end well.” Opening the wooden gate, Angelie smiled and ushered him into the yard. “Then I will teach you,” she said, “and this time it will end well.” Moving through the open gate, Mark saw the beasts for the first time. Twelve of them were milling together near a trough on the other side of the enclosure, all large, all powerful and all of them unrestrained. He backed up against the fence, trying to avoid catching their attention. Angelie followed Mark in, shutting the gate behind her and securing it, trapping him on the uncomfortable side of the fence. “Do not fear,” she said encouragingly. It did not work. While Mark remained with his back to the rails, Angelie clicked her tongue loudly. A chestnut mare turned its head at the sound, revealing a pure white star on its forehead. On seeing Angelie it approached, shaking its long mane proudly. It nickered, nudging her gently with its head as the girl stroked its cheek. “This is Saphariel, is she not the most beautiful creature you have ever seen?” she gushed. “Her name is Quidor for the Som star. She has been with me for three cycles and we have seen the breadth of Tarnak together.” Angelie beckoned Mark to come closer, which he did reluctantly, trying to keep her between himself and the horse. “Do not be afraid, she is very gentle.” She took Mark's hand and pulled him closer to Saphariel, making him slide his hand down the mare's muscular neck. He stroked the horse's neck and shoulder and after a minute or so he began to relax, realising that she was not going to attack him. “Now, we must find you a mount.” At Angelie’s suggestion Mark felt his anxiety return. Leading him by the hand, she approached the rest of the horses, most of which moved away skittishly. One horse, however, did not shy from them. It was a young stallion, totally black apart from the thin white strip, shaped like a lightning bolt, which ran from its forehead to its nose. The beast stood its ground, with nostrils flared and its head held high. The horse was an impressive sight, though Mark's only consideration was how easily it could crush him if it wanted. Angelie laughed as the stallion approached him. “I do believe you have no need to choose a mount after all, Mark. It would seem that he has chosen you.” “Are you sure he's not just ticked off?” Mark asked rhetorically, fighting the strong urge to flee. The stallion whinnied, shaking its head and mane. “Do not be afraid. Come,” she assured him. “He will accept you, as long as you show him that you are not a threat.” “I don’t think that’s a problem,” Mark said. “Be calm.” “Easy for you to say.” The horse came up to them, its proud head high. At Angelie’s urging Mark reached up and stroked the nape of the stallion's neck, as he had with Saphariel and it responded by nuzzling against him. “Well done young Master,” a deep voice called from the safe side of the fence. “He is a fine choice.” The voice belonged to a mountain of a man who was wearing a leather apron, leather trousers and boots, with his massive chest and arms uncovered. In one of his hands he held a saddle which he slung easily onto the fence. “A blessed rise to you mistress Angelie, and might this fine young lad be the Hope we've been hearing so much about?” the blacksmith asked with a grin. “The blessing returns to the giver, Guildsman and your word is true. This is Rane Fax, though he prefers his Earthen name, Mark,” Angelie replied. “Guildsman Herick is the smith and master of horses to Gar Fall, a talented crafter of iron,” she told Mark. “G'day,” Mark greeted the blacksmith, though he remained very aware of the powerful animal beside him. “I and all Quell rejoice at your return.” Then with a sly grin he added, “All but the Ty, I suspect, who will rue this day.” “Guildsman Herick!” Angelie chided the smithy. “Begging your forgiveness, mistress. The spirit speaks when the heart is silent. I'll just go and fetch the rest o' the gear, shall I?” Excusing himself, Herick wandered off towards a nearby shed. “What was that all about?” Mark asked. “It is a bad omen to speak ill of any people, even the Ty, unless the War Word is given.” Mark continued to stroke the stallion's neck and despite himself, he found the action was surprisingly calming and he began to relax again. The more at ease he became, the more Angelie grinned. After several minutes Herick returned with another saddle, bridles and the like and joined them in the yard. The smith then proceeded to saddle the horses. “So, this boy needs a name, young master. Have you thought of one yet?” he asked, calling out from under Saphariel as he fixed the saddle’s belt. Mark looked into the stallion's face and at its crooked strip, asking Angelie, “What's the Quide word for lightning?” “Fierzien,” she answered approvingly. “It means sky fire.” “That’s a good, strong name for this boy,” Herick said approvingly. “Then Fierzien it is,” answered Mark. The horse master finished saddling both horses with the quick assurance of years of experience. Sooner than he would have liked, Mark was mounting his horse, still apprehensive but no longer terrified. Angelie swung up onto Saphariel as Herick opened the gate and they rode out of the yard. At first, Angelie just took him riding around the village for about a half an hour, teaching him the basics and soon he had lost the urge to jump off the horse every time it moved in an unexpected manner. He was shown how to nudge his mount forward, how to stop and how to use the reins to direct Fierzien one way or the other. They walked their horses at first, Angelie teaching him to move with the rhythm of the horse’s movement and not against it. They rode for several hours, trotting the horses around the outskirts of Gar Fall before riding out into the open plains. There they tried cantering before taking the horses up to a gallop. Mark was sure he would come out of the saddle on more than one occasion but he managed to stay mounted and attained a rough sort of proficiency. They rode as far as Jarod's Door, about a kilometre to the north of the village. “So this is Jarod’s Door?” Mark commented, “Gotta say, it just looks like a dirty great lump of rock?” “Power is not in what is seen, Mark but what is held within.” It had taken most of the lesson just to get into a rhythm that did not result in him bashing his rear end on the saddle. By the time they returned to the yard Mark felt he'd mostly conquered his fear. He was, however, still more than ready to do something else. They left the horses with Herick at the stables and Angelie continued to show Mark around the village, what little there was left to see. By lunch time, Mark had pretty much seen all that Gar Fall had to offer so he and Angelie headed back to the Long House. “We will ride again after we have eaten,” she informed him. “Great,” he said sarcastically. “Looking forward to it.” Waiting on the long house steps sat two boys. One was an elf, with pointed ears and emerald green eyes, whilst the other was a human with similar features to a Samoan boy whom Mark knew back at school. His black dreadlocks danced over his eyes as he laughed at something the fair skinned elf had said. Despite his childlike appearance, the elf was as tall as Mark. “The Fasdtelae have begun to arrive. I will introduce you to them,” Angelie offered. “Okay,” he agreed. “This is Danielier and this is Lyanor,” she said. “This is Rane Fax, the World’s Hope.” “Ahh. G'day,” he said. “Call me Mark, please.” “Call me Dan. Good t’be fin'lly meetin' yo'. You' feelin' better I see.” The islander stated with a friendly smile. “A lot better thanks.” Something in Dan's smile reminded Mark of Matthew. Angelie continued, “Lyanor is exceptional with the bow and renowned for his knowledge of plant lore, even among his own people.” The elf nodded politely but said nothing, giving her an odd look. “Are the others here yet?” she asked. “Not yet, tho' Irakae could be turnin' up any time. You know 'er,” he smiled at some inside joke the meaning of which eluded Mark. “Come and eat,” Eitsrik called from the Long House entrance. Inside were the smells of roasted meat and the aroma made Mark realise he was hungry. They sat around the table which was laid with roast meat and steaming vegetables, fruits and breads; far more food than they could possibly eat by themselves. The table was made from the enormous cross-section of a tree; its wood stained a deep, blood-red. The dark circles of its growth rings diminished in size towards the carving of a lion in its centre. They chatted away as they ate, Mark finding more little pieces of the puzzle this world and its people presented. Dan had been training under Eitsrik for seven years and was skilled in the use of his Hoelae. The Elae allowed him to feel what others felt and to take away their mental and physical wounds. Lyanor was silent for the first fifteen minutes or so, eating nothing but mushrooms whilst ever attentive to the conversation. Finally the elf spoke to Mark. “I have watched you, as is our custom and have given you due consideration. I will now call you friend and I am blessed to share this life with you.” The elf then bowed his head towards Mark. Mark stopped eating and looked up at the elf, “Ah. Thanks, I think.” Dan burst out laughing, “Yo' s'pose to say the blessin' returns to the giver.” “Oh, okay. Um. The blessing returns to the giver.” At this Lyanor lifted his head and smiled. Dan and Angelie laughed and Mark joined them, though he felt a little embarrassed by his ineptitude. “So Angelie moves things and Dan can heal people, what’s your Elae, Lyanor?” Mark asked, trying to engage the elf in conversation. In reply the elf held out his hand and a small ball of flame appeared, dancing across his fingertips before it rose into the air and vanished. “Fierelae,” he said simply, putting another mushroom into his mouth. “It is fire calling,” Eitsrik explained, “and he is being pretentious.” “So who else is there?” Mark asked. “Who are the other Fasdtelae?” “Well, there's Irakae,” Dan answered through a mouthful of food. “She 'as Doekelae. Means she can go from 'ere to there by thinkin' 'bout it. Then there's Kemparut who knows what you be thinkin'. That's Teelae.” “She is also a deft crystalsmith,” Angelie added. “What's a crystalsmith?” Mark asked. “She's a Dwarf, so she be lettin' out the power from stones,” Dan explained. “Like the Sea Stones, right?” Mark asked. “That's right,” Dan smiled. “Okay. Who else?” “There's Krahl. Now e's a Troll but don't be callin' 'im that to 'is face. He's a Saranjel. 'e 'as Soelae so 'e sees what's 'appening before it 'appens. “Then there's Mandean. He's okay when you get to know him but e's got Eolaelae, so he can play with your 'ead.” “That's everyone?” Mark asked. “That's all of us,” Dan said. Mark looked around the table to one of the empty seats and thought of Matthew. “You be worryin' 'bout someone,” Dan said to him quietly. “Yeah. A mate of mine back on Earth. I just don't know what happened to him.” “Well, these things 'ave a habit o' workin' 'emselves out,” Dan smiled. “Can't fret what you can't fix.” “I guess not,” Mark answered. Nonetheless he did worry. After a while the topic of conversation came around to the impending war with the Ty. “Word of your arrival has been sent to the Council,” Eitsrik said, “They will expect an audience with you soon, before the War Word is given, Rane Fax.” “Yeah, well I still don’t know what I think about all that,” he said. “Most of the wars I’ve heard of ended up being pretty pointless.” “Sometimes war is the only option left to us,” Eitsrik said. “Ever heard the expression, if war is the answer it’s a bloody stupid question.” The mood in the room became noticeably cooler after Mark’s remark and they finished the meal in virtual silence. One by one, Lyanor, Dan and Eitsrik excused themselves from the table, leaving Mark and Angelie alone again. “I know, I know,” Mark said, seeing Angelie’s disapproving expression. “I should watch what I say.” “Yes, you should,” she agreed. “What now?” Mark asked, trying to change the subject “I asked Herick to have the horses ready again by mid-sun. We should not keep him waiting.” “Right,” he conceded unenthusiastically. * * * * * Chapter Four: Lessons In Modern Warfare. Astride Fierzien, Mark was beginning to enjoy trotting around the outskirts of the village, though it had more to do with Angelie’s company than the actual riding. He almost felt disappointment when, after half an hour or so, they began heading back to the stable. Waiting at the stables for them, along with Herick, were the two Fasdtelae, Lyanor and Dan. “G'day. What's going on?” Mark asked as he began dismounting. “Don't be getting’ off,” Dan said. It was then that Mark noticed two more horses had been saddled and were ready. Herick held the horses as the other two mounted. Taking the reins, Dan and Lyanor turned their horses easily and joined Mark and Angelie. “Let’s go.” Dan said. “Got somethin’ we’ll be needin’ t’ show you.” “What is it?” Mark asked. “You’ll see,” said Dan. “Wanna race?” “You’re joking, aren’t you?” Mark felt unprepared for any such thing. “To where shall we race?” Angelie asked, patting Saphariel's neck. “The Ruins of Thenoine,” Lyanor answered in his musical tone. “Keep up, if yo' can,” Dan challenged laughing, and with a shout he kicked his horse into a gallop with Lyanor driving his own horse into action, immediately behind. “Come on,” Angelie called over her shoulder. Saphariel leaped forward and before Mark could respond, Fierzien was cantering after the others, leaving him unbalanced and hanging on for dear life. Through the dirt streets of the village they raced and out into the plains beyond. The four horses, once freed from the confines of the village, all put on a burst of speed. The other riders leaned forward in the saddle while Mark gripped the reins, clenching his teeth in terror. Dan was first passed Jarod's door, with Lyanor hot on his heels. Angelie began closing the gap, with Mark unwillingly drawn along behind them all. Across the plains of tall grass they raced, Angelie catching up with Lyanor and Dan easily. Mark's heartbeat matched the thunder of Fierzien's hooves while the others all seemed to be enjoying themselves. After ten minutes of the bone shaking ride there appeared a shadow on the horizon. Another five minutes and the shadow became a multitude of dark and broken shapes. He presumed it was the goal of the race and he gave his horse its head at last. They raced right to the edge of the broken and blackened ruins of Thenoine. Angelie reached the finish first, followed twenty seconds later by Lyanor. Danielier was a little further behind, whilst Mark was just happy to have kept the others in sight. By the time he reached them they had dismounted and their horses were drinking from a pond of water under a broken fountain. “Huh!” Angelie was still gloating. “None is faster than Saphariel.” Dan feigned misery, whilst Lyanor laughed having enjoyed the race purely for the fun of it. Having survived the ride without embarrassing or hurting himself, Mark had overcome the worst of his phobia, joking as he dismounted, “And Mark Tandell receives a creditable fourth place.” The others laughed, though he was unclear whether they were laughing with him, or at his awkward dismount. Letting Sky Fire go and drink with the other horses, Mark joined his friends, asking, “So what is this place?” At his question, the laughter stopped as though they all suddenly remembered where they were. “This is Thenoine. It was a great trading city once and home to more than twenty thousand lives,” Angelie explained. “Yeah, this was a great city and people'd be comin' from all 'round just to be seein' it,” Dan added. They began to walk through the overgrown streets, between the blackened remains of the buildings. Every structure was shattered. Partial stone walls and foundations were all that remained and Mark guessed that it was abandoned and destroyed a long time ago. Angelie continued the history lesson, “Four cycles after our birth, our enemy sent one hundred of his cursed sorcerers, the Ty-Caia, to avail upon this place. “They like us have power, but whereas our Elaes are born of life, the Ty draw power from death and misery. “They came in the night, first killing the sleeping families that farmed beyond Thenoine’s walls. Using these stolen lives they cursed the people and entered unseen into the sleeping city. Those that were awake fell into slumber and those that slept could not be awakened. “Seeking only the children, they took the life of every child, leaving again without challenge. “The people awoke when the curse lifted and saw the despair that the Ty-Caia had left for them. The wails of every mother of Thenoine filled these walls.” Mark could almost hear the screams, as they wandered through the desolate decay. “Enraged by the horror, those that were able pursued the Ty-Caia into the darkness to have their revenge. For two Sedia, twelve thousand chased the cursed hundred, but then, from whence they had come in the Yeom, they saw a black cloud rising. They abandoned the search, turning back towards the burning Thenoine but when they reached the city, there was nothing but death and rubble. “The Ty-Caia had left a Fierveleck behind, a curse that grows with grief. It consumed the city entirely, leaving nothing but what you see here now.” Angelie stopped talking for a moment to try to compose herself. Danielier took the opportunity to continue the narrative. “The ones that 'ad stayed behind were the grievin' mothers and the frail. They buried them that they could and then left the city like this, takin' nothin' but tears. Some killed 'emselves, some just disappeared, but none'll ever come back 'ere, where everythin' was taken from them.” They had reached a place in the middle of the city where a large mound the size of a football field had been made. “This is where they buried the dead.” The mound was devoid of any vegetation, as though life could not bear to grow over the remnant of such an atrocity. Around the base of the mound were white stones, carved with intricate detail, depicting people, Mark assumed, who had died. “The Dwarves placed the remembering stones here, in memory of the dead. Each contains a Word of Loss from those that returned.” Mark examined one of the stones near to him. The white stone was finely embossed with the image of a mother feeding a child. Reverently, he traced his finger over the grooves in the rock. “Darkness has stolen all love from me.” Mark snatched his hand away. The grief that accompanied the voice in his mind took him unawares as it washed over him. After a few seconds, he traced another. “Wife and mother, child and son. Lost my all and only loves. Today I join them, ever and for all.” Mark traced another, and then another. Again and again the waves of grief, anger and emptiness became his for that moment. He lost count of how many stones he traced and the sorrow of how many fathers and husbands he endured. When at last he could take no more he fell to his knees, his vision blurred by tears. “Why?” Mark asked. “Why did they do this?” “They were lookin' for us, Mark,” Danielier answered. “They were wantin' to destroy the Fasdtelae, so they could change the future.” Angelie took back up the narrative. “Garodine and the Dwarves found the Ty-Caia at the foot of Fier Rhile and defeated them. Because of this, the thread of peace remains unbroken. “Garodine searched the land to find us all, those that had be gifted by you, and brought us to the safety of Allholm, under the protection of the Circulate. “So what are the Ty up to now?” Mark asked. “The Saranjels sent word to us, two seasons and a cycle ago, that the Ty hordes had been summoned by their master. Garodine was trying to discover why when he disappeared.” “Okay, that's what you don't know.” He stood and faced her, “but there's something you're not telling me. What is it?” “The Saranjels sent their Word three seasons past of hearing thunder coming from Tykreake' and now the Noin have heard the same sound near the Dragon’s Mouth. “Irakae has gone to the Dragon's Teeth, to seek an answer to this mystery. We know little other than this, but it does not bode well for us. It may be that the Ty have a new weapon to use against us. “Until we know more of this threat, we may do nothing,” she concluded. Mark tried to guess what this latest threat could be, but all he knew was a growing sense of apprehension. The four of them were silent for a moment as Mark surveyed the massive burial mound, contemplating the thousands of white stones and the heartless nature of his enemy. Dan sensed the mixed emotions and placing his hand on Mark's shoulder, he said. “I've felt what you're feelin' 'bout wars my friend but sometimes the question’s not so stupid.” * * * * * The ride back was taken at a much more leisurely pace and the despair of Thenoine faded the further they rode from the ruin. They talked as they travelled and Mark soon discovered that Dan had a sense of humour, making much of Mark's clothing, particularly the fluorescent motif that covered his back. “Not really tryin' for hidin', are you?” Dan laughed. “Yeah, well it's normal where I'm from, mate,” Mark objected. “I don't know that I'm ready to wear what you guys are wearing, anyway.” “Well you're goin' to have t' sooner than you think.” Dan and Lyanor grinned at some private joke. “What?” Mark asked. “What's the joke?” “You'll just have t' wait and see,” Dan said cryptically. It was getting late in the afternoon by the time they reached Gar Fall. As Mark dismounted, he felt the discomfort of saddle soreness, walking gingerly, with his legs slightly apart. “Come 'ere.” Dan called as he dismounted and Mark went over to him. Dan placed a hand on each shoulder and warmth flowed down through Mark's body. As the strange sensation flooded him, the soreness seemed to drain away, until his thighs and backside no longer felt like they’d been tenderised. “Cool trick,” Mark commented. “Better than the first aid course I did at school last year.” “I'll be teachin' you to do it too, if you’re wantin' me to,” he offered. “That'd be cool, thanks.” Herick came from the stables, greeting the group cordially before leading the horses back into the yard. Mark and his friends walked back towards the centre of the village, where preparations were being made. In the middle of town was a large square where tables and bench seats were laid out and people were decorating their houses. As they passed, the people stopped and called out greetings, bowing their heads in respect. Mark found it all a bit odd. When they reached the long house, Eitsrik was waiting for them. “This dark, the people of Gar Fall have asked to honour you all with a Holnitay. Until then you should you use your time with wisdom,” the immortal suggested. She walked down the Long House steps and away to attend to something. Angelie excused herself also, going off to prepare for the festival, as did Lyanor. “What's a Holnitay?” Mark asked Dan. “It's a festival. Be celebratin' the return of a hero.” “Who?” he asked. “Who’d yo’ think?” Dan laughed. “You can't be serious,” he objected. “Oh yes,” he laughed. “And they'll be wantin' you t’ dress for it too.” Mark felt butterflies in his stomach and Dan knew it. The islander’s laughter did nothing to calm Mark's nerves. “Come on,” Dan said. “Let’s get somethin’ t’ eat.” They moved into the hall, and sat around the table, picking at the nuts and dried fruits that were already laid out. “You know, yo’ be nothin' like I was thinkin' you'd be,” Dan commented. “Disappointed?” Mark asked. “No. I'm likin' it, to tell y' the truth. I was worryin' that you'd be all prideful but you're not,” Dan explained, “I be feelin' more like a friend than a follower.” “Good, because right now what I need are friends and you and Angelie are the only ones who talk to me like I'm normal. Lyanor's nice but he’s a bit...” He struggled for an appropriate adjective. “A bit o’ an elf?” Dan offered. “You'll get used to 'im. Don't you be worryin' 'bout the others, 'cause you're probably just gettin' the sense o' their own feelin's all twistin' up inside of 'em. What, with the war comin’ and all, they' got their own problems to be sortin'.” “Haven't we all?” Mark sighed. “Let me tell you somethin' 'bout how 'tis with Hoelae. Tis'nt like the other Elaes, 'cause it's always there. The others 'ave to be learned t' be done but with Hoelae, you've got to learn how t' not use it. “I found out early that I shouldn't be goin' 'round tellin' people what they be feelin', 'cause tellin' people don't get you many friends. So I learned t' pretend like I don't be knowin' what's inside of 'em. It took a bit longer to learn not to know. When I be seein' things in people's hearts that they probably don’t be wantin’ me to see, I just don't tell ‘em I know.” “That's kind of weird,” Mark noted. “And a bit freaky.” “Frik-ey?” Dan asked, trying to understand the slang. “Scary. Like, you know everything that I'm feeling even if I don't want you to,” Mark explained. “Nah, that's nothin’. Wait to you get two people who be likin' each other but don't be knowin' it yet. Now that's really...” Dan paused, searching for the right word, before concluding with a smile, “Frikey.”

Star’s front row seat for sporting history - Local newspaper week Boss: Council wrong on park rules Wednesday 10th September 2008, 2:00PM BST. Telford council boss Andrew Eade today stepped into the patrols in the park row and admitted: “We made a mistake and I’m sorry.”The council leader stressed that there was no question of adults being stopped and quizzed just because they were in the Town Park without children. Will town park visitors face grilling? See also: Park pervert patrol shock Home Office attacks park policy Councillor Eade spoke out after council sports and recreation manager David Ottley caused a row by revealing in a letter that childless adults could be stopped by wardens and asked to explain what they were doing in the park. But Mr Eade said this afternoon the letter “incorrectly stated the situation”. He said: “On behalf of the council I want to say sorry over this issue and apologise for any confusion that may have been caused, in particular to the many people who use and enjoy Telford Town Park. “I want to categorically state that it has never been this council’s policy to stop, question and turn away adults without youngsters in the play areas in the Town Park. Such a policy defies common sense and I will not let this happen.” Mr Eade blamed the confusion on “an ad hoc instruction that was introduced some years ago covering children’s play areas”. He said council officers had acted on the instruction and quizzed fewer than five of the five million visitors who have enjoyed the park over the last five years. He added: “However, I fully understand why normal law abiding people would feel affronted by what they have heard and read. I want to take this opportunity to say sorry that a letter sent last month to a resident, that started this whole issue, incorrectly stated the situation.” * The story of the council’s approach to childless people using the park has sparked national controversy and was not only featured in today’s national newspapers but was also on BBC Radio 4′s flagship news programme Today, on Radio Five Live, Radio 2 and also Matthew Wright’s Wright Stuff on Channel I see nothing wrong with T & W actions over the child area’s in the Town park. Its such a small area (The childrens play area) that single persons with no children should not have a issue with being told to avoid it. Unfortunatly it is necessary in todays’s age that these actions are taken. Again people who are not guilty have nothing to fear from this stance from T & W council. Report abuse So if a adult has a kid that is fine? Even if they are a peado that are wanting to take the child/ren into the bushes to play??? Report abuse this is a disgrace i often walk my daughters up to the park to meet thier friends and walk back alone does this mean i am going to be grilled for dropping my girls off with friends or if i walk to a friends i am not allowed through the park? Report abuse Someone has had a spoonful of common sense!! Report abuse So Mr Eade, what action are you going to take against the people who made the mistake? Your staff seem to make mistake after mistake without any consequences. Let’s list a few of the more public ones: Trench Lock, Ketley Brook, Town centre traffic lights that cause unnecessary congestion, a contra flow bus lane that causes accidents, the recent bus pass fiasco, drain pipes planted in the road to obstruct vision at a major roundabout, failing schools under government threat of closure, penguins evicted from the park, and now a completely barmy “pervert dectection scheme” You could not make this up and if it was made into a film people would not believe it!! When are you going to make the council credible? Report abuse This is too much; common sense being applied and a Politician saying sorry and admiting a mistake in the same sentence. I need to go and have a lie down. Report abuse exactly the muppetts have been ignored . Report abuse So for those who think that if you have nothing to hide then you have nothing to fear… so you would be v happy for someone to come to your house, look through your cupboards, read your emails, go through your bank accounts, mobile phone records, ask your neighbours what kind of hours you keep, etc all because you have nothing to hide? If so, I’m sure you could find some cheap real estate in Russia but for the rest of us who treasure our civil liberties, we will continue to protest against these abuses until someone finally turns the light on upstairs. Report abuse This back down seems to follow after the issue was escalated to Liberty, and has now been reported on the BBC website. Quoting from the BBC website: “A council spokesman said only five childless adults regarded as acting suspiciously in the park had been questioned in the past five years.” Does this ring true and does it include the Shropshire Stars reporter who was stopped? Oh and ‘Y Mab Darogan’ – almost every post you make states the same old ‘if you ain’t doing anything wrong then you’ve nothing to fear’. I guess this use to be the slogan in Stalinist Russia and in Eastern Germany! Report abuse A Politician has a GOOD idea and then backtracks because of bad PR from the Press. Very disappointing Report abuse I love Telford, so much so I make sure I only work here and live as far away as possible :) Report abuse How many more times do we have to hear IF YOUR NOT GUILTY of anything YOU HAVE NOTHING TO FEAR well what about the 6 million Jews who got murdered in the Nazi death camps. what were they guilty of? Or how about the countless people who are been murdered tortured victimised imprisoned who are not guilty of NOTHING other than who they are and what they believe in.. Report abuse p p p pick up a penguin Report abuse Well it would seem a good idea for all parents to avoid telford town centre, because it is obviously its not safe, as they need big brother patrols. Report abuse The Town Park should be there for everyone to enjoy not just people with children. What about the children there running wild without adult supervision because Mommy or Daddy wants some peace and leave them on their own to get up to god knows what. What is Telford coming to used to be a nice place to live how things change. Report abuse Well a poiltician may have said sorry, but words are cheap – what is Cllr Eade going to DO about the fiasco? Does anyone know if the Rally is still going ahead on Sat morning in the Areana? Report abuse Public Sector enemy, you could also add to your list the Eastern Primary which had nearly a quarter of a million spent on it only to have an INCREASE in casualties. Report abuse WHY oh WHY do people keep saying: “Again people who are not guilty have nothing to fear” (….from this stance from T & W council) (Copied from Y mab darogan) saying that “because you are not guilty ….. you have nothing to fear” shows an incredible lack of understanding of the ways of blind authority…. and also shows an equally blind misplaced trust in those supposed to protect us …. beggars belief !! And … WHO actually decides that YOU are “not guilty”? – It’s a bit late when you’ve been wrongly arrested, videod, photgraphed, DNA sample taken …. and the finger of suspicion lingers long after you’ve satisfied “those in authority” that you were innocent after all. On the Contrary…. you have EVERYTHING TO FEAR! Report abuse The police are paid to police. If there are suspected peado’s hanging around the police should be called, not T & W park employees. I can see the sence of goodwill and concern T & W are trying to portray to park users but they are not the police nor do they have any due restriction over people using a public facility Report abuse I’m glad there has been such an uproar in both the main tabloids an through TV. The world, well at least GB hasnt gone mad. I thought for a minute that a chinese delegation or staunch muslim sect had taken over the TDC. Good Old Democracy still exists then ! Report abuse I saw Telford was the laughing stock of the ation on BBC News last night. Sadly “No-one from the Council was available for interview.” So why couldn’t our elected politicians appear and clarify the matter, and appologise? Don’t they have back bones? Made them look pathetic whimps – not exactly the image we want to attact skills and investment. Report abuse Agin I feel people are bing very paranoid about people in power. If you are not doing anything wrong you have nothing to fear. Why would the people in power try to fit up the average law abiding person in the street? No reason at all. I think people have been watching far too many conspirency shows on here. Laws are here to protect us. If we had harsher and strictor laws Great Britain would not be descending into the 3rd world lawless country that it is. Knife problem – simples Anyone one found with a knife on them gets a minimum of 40 years behind bars same for guns. Peodophiles – life in Prision Murderes – The death penulty. Vandilismn – 5 years behind bars. Un social behaviour if drinking 2 years behind bars. If thoses laws were brought in Britain would be GREAT again. Report abuse Well done Andrew Eade for knocking this stupidity on the head, but there are still important questions remaining unanswered. This “policy” was a response to what? The council say that “fewer than five people (out of FIVE MILLION park visitors) have been approached over the last five years”. I’m not a statistician, but “less than five” must mean no more than four. Four minus two penguins and John Evans handing out leaflets about the threat to the Arena equals errr, one or possibly none. This does smack of using a five megaton nuclear warhead to crack an egg!! Report abuse Y Mab say ‘Unfortunatly (sic) it is necessary in todays’s age that these actions are taken.’ But it isn’t necessary, that’s the point. The idea of so-called ‘stranger danger’ has been hyped up by our tabloid press, and is no more prevalent that it has been for decades and decades. Children were far more at risk in the era of ‘Victorian values’ than they are today. And why do the press hype these stories? Is it to act as moral guardians for us all? Nope, it’s just a cynical ploy to sell papers. And if we were to implement your suggested laws, far from being great again (and you’ve misunderstood what the ‘Great’ in Great Britain means!) we would be turned into an authoritatian police state, not unlike Saudi Arabia. Report abuse At least it is going to be sorted out. I am fed up with the “if you are doing nothing wriong you have nothing to fear” statements. Some people are so ignorant. Report abuse Myself and the individuals involved in the climate change action will continue to hand out leaflets in the town park regardless of the councils actions.I believe the issue of us as a threat to children is a distraction from the main issue we were trying to engage people in. They do not like people to be in public spaces raising awareness of issues like global warming, illegal wars or other social justice issues. They do not want a well informed, critical thinking public, they want passive people in Telford who work, shop and consume and do not use public spaces for any type of community organizing. The council claims to have a policy on climate change and claim to wish to engage with the public on this matter. There response to our groups actions should have been, if their claims on caring about the environment are true, one of support and they should be happy that we took the initiative to do something they should be encouraging. They have chosen to stiffle our actions with silly statements about child molesters.I don’t expect an apology from the council to our group who had us removed from the park under non-existent claims that we should have CRB and risk assessment checks. Telford and Wrekin Council have showed themselves to be self-interested authoritarian bureaucratic idiots. Report abuse Y MAB This is not really about paedophiles, children,park wardens….it’s about overpaid fools in suits who are not doing their jobs properly and trying to dictate to “Joe Public” what they can or can’t do in a public place without the express “permission” of these over paid, jumped up bufoons. Report abuse And would Britain having the same laws as Saudi Arabia be so wrong? i for one object to paying taxes to keep murderers in prison in tha lap of luxury while OAPS who fought for our country in the war are cold and starving at winter. Something has gone wrong with our country somewhere.. and the thing which has gone wrong – would have to be all the liberal laws made by liberal PC People in power Report abuse Graham Bunn – Have you considered to think people do not WANT your views FORCEFED to them while they are enjoying the public spaces. If you feel so strongly about your issues why don’t you form a political party and stand for election at the next election. It would be cheaper and less damaging to the environment than printing 100′ of flyers which people throw away. As to your other points. Global warning – Not happening no scientific proof of this – gullible people have swallowed this line from the Government on global warming and carbon footprints. It helps the Government to raise money in stealth taxes to fight your so called illegal wars so in effect you are fundraising and helping the Government raise money to fight these illegal wars SHAME on you. Report abuse The Leader Promised to allow the public to speak at Full Council but never delivered on that promise. Now is the time to actually deliver that policy. Only by actively engaging with and involiving residents themselves can this type of thing be avoided. We need Policy,Practice and Procedure to brought out for public scrutiny. The Politicians are worried about other parties having ago rather than putting our interests first. I invite Andrew Eade to the Arena on Saurday Morning at 1030 and hopefully he will then say exactly what is happening. Officers saying the policy will be reviewed is not good enough, these are the same officers who make mistake after mistake. They have proven they cannot be trusted. Report abuse obviously the most important lesson to be learned from this is, small groups of dedicated people can challenge arrogant power…and win! I hope others gain inspiration from this. Get out there we have a world to win and nothing to loose but our metaphorical chains. Report abuse Something doesn’t stack up with Andrew Eade’s comments. He “stressed that there was no question of adults being stopped and quizzed just because they were in the Town Park without children”, yet the Shropshire Star video clearly demonstrates this actually happening. Y Mab Darogan: Nobody is force feeding you with their opinions. If you don’t want a leaflet, a polite “no thanks” is all that’s required. Report abuse We have never ” force fed ” our views to people, they have a choice to walk on by if they wish. I have capitalist consumerism and it’s off shoots shoved at me almost 24/7, i have no escape, except when i attend events like climate camp and get to live in a empowering, sustainable , consensus based sane mini society, despite indimidation from the state. The evidence to support global warming man made or other is overwhelming. Of course government will use it to extract more tax from us It’s what governments do. As an anarchist forming a political party is something i realized as a non-starter. Party politics is a sham, It could take years to gain voter momentum, to still not get the necessary changes needed, and again this undermines the need for people to do it themselves and not defer their own power to elected representatives who have on many occasions demonstrated that they do not care much about the public’s needs. Politicians are as much trapped by the system as we are, they just get more perks. Their job should be to make themselves redundant. Direct action gets the goods. Under international law the war in Iraq is illegal. It seems too many people in society are living in a state of denial about environmental issues and their role in the capitalist rat race. To acknowledge the truth one might be required to evaluate ones life and in relation to the society we have.There are tough choices to be made. Then one may be required to take action. Report abuse I take it John Franklyn, Graham Bunn and Jake are all connected with this action group thn? It would be nice if you could all mention you have dealings with this action group before you make comments. It seems to me this has all been blown up out of proportion due to 2 activits dressed as penguins being unable to get there own way. If so this is a total waste of money and time and the action group should be ashamed of itself. Report abuse Graham Bunn Re your comment “Direct action gets the goods” name me one example where direct action has ever got anything? Petrol Protests – Petrol prices are now sky high blockading the ports did nothing. The anti war movement – demonstrate all you like war is still happening. Poll tax movement – Poll tax scrapped but more expenive council tax introduced. Direct action achieves NOTHING!!! Btw if you do not like living in a capitalist society I suggest you move to a small island just off Scotland with no electric/TV/radio. I take it you will be as happy as a pig in muck there. Report abuse - Not part of any group, just care for basic freedoms and assumption of innocence before guilt. It was most likely a kneejerk reaction to some ill-researched article or management talk. Power is something most people in this country are unable to cope with. Someone took it on themselves to judge people on the lowest common denominator eg how they appear on their own in a park. Then used their power and influence to drive this through, in an effort to make it look like they’re doing something. Most times its not noticed – like this move to 6th forms in schools – 10 year or so – they will move them bacj out and waste even more money. Target driven jobs are a danger to common sense and democracy! Report abuse y mab – you need to do your home work, i belong to telford council watch. this has been documented and declared over many occassions on the past few years, over a wide range of topics. I will neverjustify having a point of view to the likes of you. Report abuse Y Mab Darogan – I have never heard of this group, let alone have anything to do with them. Graham Bunn stated at the outset that he is involved with them. You say it’s been blown out of proportion and is a total waste of time and money, apportioning blame to the action group that first highlighted the Council’s stance (possibly because the overwhelming opinion is contrary to your own), yet the Shropshire Star’s own video footage clearly shows a council employee questioning a single male about his business in the park, which is in direct contradiction to the statement made by Andrew Eade. This has nothing to do with activists, penguins or climate change and everything to do with your civil liberties and mine. Report abuse Well I hope Cllr Eade does turn up on Sat. He might get some of my “free range” eggs. Free because I’ll hand them to anyone who wants them, and the range, well, pretty accurate up to 10 yards! Report abuse Thank You John Franklyn and all at the council watch site. This town needs more people like you fighting for a better Telford and holding those in power to account. You are a 21st century Tom Joad and the type of citizen this country needs. Telford should be proud to have you. Report abuse Graham Bunn – Would’nt a btter Telford be one that protects the innocent/ and would’nt you also agree that innocents would be people under the age of 18 playing at a childrens park? If you agree with that don’t you also agree that it is essential that innocents should be entitled to expect adequent care from T & W Even if that means asking single persons what they are doing in a childrens area/ Lucy W – I might see you sat then ;o) Report abuse As one of the two people distributing leaflets at Telford Town Park I feel it is important to clarify the events leading up to and following our expulsion from the park. Our actions were planned to coincide with the events taking place at this years camp for climate change, held at Kingsnorth power station in Kent and only included four banner drops, an unsuccessful banner hoist and the distribution of leaflets to members of the public in the Telford Town Park. These can hardly be claimed to be violent revolutionary acts in themselves. However while members of our group were being asked to leave the park police intimidation including baton charges the use of pepper spray were being carried out on friends and colleagues at the camp for climate change. Whether one agrees with our actions or not is a moot point. What is at stake here is a fundamental point of our right to free expression and to be able to use our public open spaces as we citizens choose. Telford and Wrekin Unitary Authority (sic) have no right to question any member of the public as to their actions or intentions. To suggest otherwise is to change the relationship between the individual and the state. Luckily and despite intense pressure we do still live in a society where free speech is tolerated. And to relinquish our personal responsibilities to others is to make ourselves slaves of an authoritarian regime, whatever the political hue. Of course this is what those of a sadomasochistic bent would be only too willing for us all to do. Neil Donaldson. Report abuse Neil Donaldson – Powerstations are not toys to be demonstrated around they are very dangerous bits of equipment. The Police were well within in there rights to move you on. However you fail to realise that the majority of the population is quite happy with the world as it is sowhy should the majority be forced to change because of the minority? and by minority I would estimate that people who agree with your views make up approx 2% of the worlds population Report abuse Y Mab, get real. There are dozens of people on here and on other sites nationally such as the Mail on line who think that what Telford and Wrekin tried to do is ridiculous, they can’t all belong to some “anti Telford and Wrekin council” protest group. Can’t you see that you are a very small minority in this debate that believes in what the council are trying to achieve? Report abuse Well done to Graham Bunn and Neil Donaldson (and Rachel Whitaker) for their amusing, creative and inspiring climate change direct action. We need more people like you. Good luck with your next action. Report abuse I went and ‘hung around’ (ate lunch on a bench) in the town park yesterday and was very disappointed that no one from the Council came to harrass me. What are we paying these officials for ?? Report abuse Re the leaflet distibutors, I can’t see the problem and go further to say that I think a public place is the right place for this. Has no-one ever visited Speakers Corner in London? Well I have several times when I was child and remember it used to kick off sometimes – but thats seen as a civil right in London. Perhaps T&W Council could create a “Speakers Corner” in the park, so show that we are as forward thinking as our capital colleagues? I suggest that Sundays be reserved for Religious matters (sorry but Jews and Muslims will just have to fit in with Christians), Saturday be a free for all, and Monday to Friday for Huw Peach to go on and on and on about Global what-ever-its-called. Report abuse Yes y mab if an individual in the park is asked what they are doing there, they are hardly likely to admit to be plotting to abuse a child, so what has been gained? i do think Telford has a duty to protect people. Something we all should do in a sensible well thought out productive manner. To be honest some of your suggestions appear to be right wing reactionary solutions. I hope i am wrong and we can find some ground on which we could agree as i don’t want to spent time on negative tit for tat behaviour.There too much bad feeling and not enough understanding in the world to add more to it. Report abuse Graham Bunn – you claim never to have forced your views on people – that is of course true, but can you not understand that in the same way as most people get a bit tetchy about being bothered on their doorstep by religious zealots, your actions have a nuisance value for those who have attended the park in the vain hope that they will not be pestered by obsessive zealots under the pseudo-religious blanket of ‘climate change’ activists pursuing their pet cause/hobby. For that reason it seems not unreasonable for officialdom to ask you to desist, in much the same way they might ask someone to stop dropping litter. I have written myself in these columns concerning the harm that the excesses of capitalism are doing to the workers of this country, but it’s naive in the extreme to suggest we could manage without it altogether. The whole environmental cause is now harming our economy, since governments and others are using the hysteria generated as an excuse to get more money out of us all – while few of our competitors are so obsessed with this, thus gaining advantage for their economies. Let’s not forget that respected climate change scientists have expressed misgivings at some of the exaggerations generated by the climate change warrior brigade, and even as recently as the 1970s the same activists were telling us we were heading for a new ice age! One even claimed that the chances of mankind surviving to the turn of the century was in the order of 1-2%! It’s difficult to take people seriously when they cry wolf so often. There is evidence emerging now that the glaciers have melted before within the last few thousand years, with artefacts being regularly found as the ice retreats – and humanity and the planet survived! And Neil Donaldson – who gave you the ‘personal responsibility’ to pester me about climate change? Like the religious types, you’ve taken it upon yourself to do that. Report abuse For people in Shropshire wanting to find out more about the media’s presentation of the climate change issue, I would recommend the latest thoughts on this issue by Media Lens (medialens.org). This looks at the propaganda effort in the media over the last couple of years by energy companies to promote ‘carbon capture and storage’ (CCS), the latest technological fix for dirty coal-fired power stations. According to Corporate Watch, CCS is unlikely to be in widespread use until 2030 at the earliest, and possibly not until 2050. Isn’t it a bit embarrassing for our democracy when penguin-clad activists, who want to initiate a debate about this greenwash, are not even allowed to do so? Report abuse Y Mab: Re your “minority” point. I agree! So should fox-hunting be legalised because only a minority in the countryside are against it? Huw: How did the Green Party Conference go? I trust you had a good time attending. Report abuse Hello Huw Peach, Thank you for the supportive comments. I have found Medialens to be a great resource for factual information regarding climate change and many more social justice issues. They did some great work regarding the factually incorrect documentary ” the great global warming swindle “. I think it is ignorant and arrogant of people to accuse me and my friends of a type of religious zealotry by an individual who has never met us. There is nowhere in Telford that we can go to engage with people and stimulate healthy constructive debate. I think many people are concerned about the environment but the size of the problem can seem overwhelming that maybe people feel powerless to act. I hope i am wrong on climate change, we need to protect the environment regardless for obvious reasons. I think to sit on the fence on this issue is too great a risk to take. As i have said before the government will use anything as an excuse to raise our taxes, it’s their standard response to any problem, Plus they need to raise money to pay for oil wars and further syphon public funds into the private sector. I recall the same type of debate regarding the tobacco industry and cancer, they paid many scientsts to come up with evidence to deny the links there. climate change, anti-war and other issues are not my pet hobbies/causes just a rational response by a compassionate group of individuals who accept some responsibility towards the society they live in. I get no joy handing out leaflets and the often verbal abuse one gets, though most people are kind and supportive. I would rather be with my friends enjoying our company with a clear conscience than at events like climate camp seeing my friends get a beating form riot police for the crime of caring. We have capitalist consumerism forced in our faces all the time by the ” religious Zealots” in the advertising propaganda machine. Their billboard faeces are splattered all over the place, one can’t switch on the TV or radio with out the message to consume mindless aspirational consumer items rammed into your head,If only i had this gadget, clothes item, aftershave, make-up, plastic surgery i would be king in the you are what you own purchase a personality market, that needlesly uses up resources turning the globe into a slagheap while more than half the world live in poverty and are denied the basics for decent survival. I recognize my part in the problem and try to address the balance. Unfortunately i realise there is a certain amount of personal hypocrisy in the choices we make, that’s another symptom of the system we have to live in. I would be great to meet up with Huw Peach at some point in the future. Report abuse I was with Graham and Neil at the climate change leafleting event and would reiterate that we were not badgering people with the leaflets nor were we standing on the footpath. Despite our collective description as ‘protestors’, this wasn’t even a protest, it was just a group of us using local public open space for something that we feel is worthwhile. If being asked if you would like a leaflet and having to say ‘no thanks’ is the most distress you face today, you’re a lucky person. Y Mab Darogan: It’s difficult to know whether your view of the world is culled directly from the Daily Mail, climate change denial polemics on Channel 4 or perhaps a bit of both. Are you worried that if you even look at one of the alternative sources of information suggested to you by various posters on this forum, you might have to open your mind just a chink? Of course, we all have our prejudices – personally I’m not fond of people who repeat the same information over and over again in the hope that if they say (or type) it enough it will become true. I’m not a scientist but I have endeavoured to study all sides of the climate change debate, including that of the sceptics and deniers. I agree with those who say that it is being used as a ‘cash cow’ by governments and corporations but that does not alter the striking evidence that the natural process of global warming has accelerated since wide-scale industrialisation. This has made climate patterns both more extreme and more difficult to predict. As it happens, the event that started this debate was about climate change but the ensuing debate had seen some interested views posed on how we treat children in our society and the consumption driven culture of which anthropogenic global warming is a part. In response to this, I posted the following on the Telford Live forum yesterday: “Just a brief glance round the Town Park yesterday would have revealed children in t-shirts brandishing a variety of slogans and logos including Nike, Manchester United, ‘sexy chick’, ‘horny’ and the Playboy bunny logo. I wonder if the parents of these children were also those who wanted protection form perverts? It’s quite likely because these people are so seduced by the herd mentality of consumerism that they are happy to sexualise their own children or dress them in clothes made by children who are often abused themselves. I think this makes them more likely to get caught up in the mob mentality of hunting down the ‘lurking paedo’. Of course it’s a good thing to make sure that children and adults alike in our community don’t have to suffer any unnecessary harm or distress but this isn’t going to be addressed by knee-jerk reactions to a much wider problem. I don’t think anyone would deny the abhorrence of child abuse (whether physical or sexual), least of all it’s victims and adult survivors but so-called ‘stranger danger’ is just more media hysteria about a social phenomenon that explains only a relatively small number of child abuse cases. Surely the paedophile on every street corner must now be jostling for position with the terrorist and knife-wielding teen? I’m not saying that the sexualisation of children excuses paedophilia but parents can’t have it both ways. Either children are to be wrapped in cotton wool and protected from everything or they’re feisty little sexually-aware, image-obsessed consumers.” Report abuse I think we should assign a police officer to follow Y Mab around all day, every day, without leaving his side for even a moment, to see just how little he truly values his privacy. After all, he has nothing to hide. Unfortunately we can’t do this, as our right to privacy is guaranteed by law. As for your utter nonsense about making Britain into Saudi Arabia, if you want that to happen I suggest you just up sticks and move over there yourself. Because nobody in their right mind wants that here, in a country that has shed blood to retain its liberties for centuries. Your idea of a utopia continues to be perhaps the most warped and disturbing that I’ve ever heard in my life. I’d much rather die free than live under the thumb of a lunatic like you. This pervert patrol is completely pointless. Its (scarce few) supporters keep citing ‘protecting the innocent’ as a good reason for it, but that’s nonsense – as many people on these comment threads have repeatedly and exhaustively demonstrated, the stranger danger is exaggerated to absurd levels, and children are at greater risk at home. Likewise, stopping people in the streets and asking them if they are perverts or isn’t likely to yield any results. Is it? And I’m still yet to see any figures which prove the Town Park suffers from any problem of this nature in the first place. Report abuse Huw, Whilst I accept that big corporations certainly have a political agenda, and will use their influence in the tabloid press in particular, I couldn’t describe medialens as being unbiased either. They are three people whom I believe base their position upon Buddhist beliefs. Whilst many people regard the BBC for example as a voice for liberalism, medialens seem to regard them as a mouthpiece for corporate propaganda. Given that the BBC are being criticised from conflicting sides, it might well be reasonable to assume that they are getting the balance about right. Certainly they seem willing to link almost any topic that they cover to climate change – which I must admit I find a bit tiresome, and if anything my assessment is that they come out too strongly in favour of the ‘cars are to blame for global warming’ argument. The problem with many environmentalists is that they are fond of blocking possible solutions but less competent when it comes to offering viable alternatives. Wind power, wave power solar power etc. are all well and good, but they’ll never meet all of our needs. So we look at clean coal (no, not clean enough), nuclear power (no, too scary) oil and gas, (no too much carbon and too much reliance upon the Russians to supply). Given that we’re not all about to build our houses from wattle and daub, don sackcloth and go and live in a ‘climate camp’ what are we going to do Huw? Report abuse Y Mab Darogan is concerned (#43) that ‘the majority of the population is quite happy with the world as it is sowhy should the majority be forced to change because of the minority?’ First of all, the reverse is true. Worldwide at least 18,000 children die every day because of hunger and malnutrition and 850 million people go to bed every night with empty stomachs, according to the UN World Food Programme (figures from 2007). Climate change, the predicted increase in extreme weather events, high oil and food prices and low food stocks are predicted to make these figures far far worse. No doubt Y Mab Darogan believes that the rest of the world shares his view that things are fine in a world where nearly a sixth of the world’s population are starving. But clearly growing numbers of people do NOT. And, thankfully for all of us, there is a small number of committed individuals (like the Telford penguins) who are speaking truth to power in a way that cannot be ignored by those who defend the status quo. Margaret Mead the US anthropologist said, ‘Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.’ The abolition of slavery, the fight for workers’ rights, women’s suffrage, the campaign for universal health care and education would never have happened without people (-or even penguins-), who -in their day- would have been branded ‘zealots’ by reactionaries. Report abuse AT LEAST HE SAYS SORRY A RARE TREAT FOR A POLITITAN, SO WELL DONE Report abuse Peter says ‘few of our competitors are so obsessed with’ [environmental issues]. Why, then, has Australia signed the Kyoto Treaty. Why are both US presidential candidates promising massive cuts in emissions, Peter, if what you say is true? (80% cuts promised by Barack Obama and 60% by John McCain by 2050). Members of the G8 are responsible for 62% of the carbon dioxide accumulated in the Earth’s atmosphere, which makes us (the 8 richest countries) the main culprit of climate change and the biggest part of the problem. In July 2008 other countries like Brazil, China, India, Mexico and South Africa seemed more than a little interested in the issue. What paper do you read, Peter? Did you miss this story? Report abuse Is it too much to ask for a debate not to be hijacked by the climate change campaigners? According to the article above, this story concerns the leader of T&W Council issuing an acknowledgement that their stance was apparently incorrect. Unfortunately, it is being taken over like others before it, by the usual suspects in order to get across their green agenda. Please save your beliefs for the right time and place, and stop trying to turn everything into a debate on climate change. You know who you are! Report abuse Peter, In Comment #49 you said that ‘the same activists [who are warning about climate change today] were telling us we were heading for a new ice age’ in the 1970s. I have tried to research your claim, but could not find any evidence to back up your claim. Could you please name ONE current climate change activist who made these claims in the 1970s? Report abuse Whether the police have the right to move people on or not is irrelevant. No one has a right to use violence and intimidation against people involved in their democratic right to peaceful protest. Unfortunately there seems to be a lot of previous form on this, as a quick trawl through the archives will clearly show those who are interested. More recently people being gunned down in their own home or using public transport also spring to mind as does the use of torture to extract false confessions and fabricating evidence in order to convict people who were later exonerated, the Guilford four and Maguire Seven amongst others. The salient point about democratic right to peaceful protest is that citizens in ordinary communities can take on and challenge those in hierarchical power structures where the inadequate electoral process has failed. By challenging those who would claim authority over us is an empowering activity which everyone should be encouraged to take. However this philosophy is not prescriptive. There are no rules about how people should go about improving their lives, environment or what ever other concerns they may have. Freedom to take responsibility for oneself and community can be daunting, especially difficult when deference to unearned and unwarranted authority is inculcated from childhood. However to accept an authoritarian hierarchy system can only lead in the end to fascism as scapegoats for society’s failings are lead once again to the gas chambers. Neil Donaldson. Report abuse In #55 Peter said, ‘Given that we’re not all about to build our houses from wattle and daub, don sackcloth and go and live in a ‘climate camp’ what are we going to do Huw?’ 1) A good place to start would be to read the Zerocarbonbritain.com strategy on halving Britain’s energy demand and moving to renewable energy. You can find the report on the website of the Centre for Alternative Technology. 2) Secondly you could have a look at the Greenpeace UK site to see a computer animation of what a zero-carbon town would look like. Click on to ‘Efficiencity.’ 3) If you are looking for policy decisions that our government could be taking in the face of the triple crunch of climate change, rising (food and) energy prices (underpinned by peak oil) and the credit-fuelled financial crisis, then I would recommend you consider reading the GREEN NEW DEAL by the new economics foundation (available to order from their website). By the way I wouldn’t read it if you are looking for references to ‘wattle and daub and sackcloth’, Peter. These plans have been drawn up by green economists and campaigners, whose ideas are being investigated by political parties of every hue. I hope that answers your question, Peter. Could you answer mine now? Report abuse Can we filter out Y Mab Darogan’s comments please, they are ridiculous. Report abuse Surely if Y Mab Darogan’s are filtered out this would be tantamount to censorship. Free speech applies to everyone. And although I profoundly disagree with the comments posted by this individual I feel it would be inappropriate to “filter” anyones comments simply because what was written was “ridiculous”. In some respects this individuals comments are quite illuminating of the society we live in. And the best way of dealing with this is not by censorship but through humour and ridicule. And surely none of us are above that. Report abuse with all due respect Mark, comment 59 It was the green agenda that actually raised the awareness of this issue. They have not hijacked this thread, but I believe their message has actually been lost among everything else. They have been prepared to tolerate that and support others, now that is only to their credit and I applaud them for their approach, I for one will support them as they have been prepared to give, they have displayed a number of qualities that are rare in today’s society. Report abuse Some very good points being made here – But the direction seems to have changed I thought the idea was to comment on whether the council had the right to “stop and question” lone adults in the town park – It appears to have drifted into a discussion on climate change or are the coucils actions a direct result of global warming? Report abuse My self Rachel and Neil have not high-jacked this issue. We have highlighted an important issue of the right to free speech,assembly and community based activism in our town park without having to be labelled a potential paedophile by the council who threw a strop and had us thrown out of the park. I am happy we bought this to light, that the council have made the right decision on reflection. The town park is now free again to be used by Telford citizens to, enjoy and if needs be encourage debate and action on important issues in our community and the wider world. Climate change is not a belief system like religion ,it is a theory backed up by substantial scientific evidence. If the science in the future significantly changes to rationally support another theory then i will re-evaluate my opinion on the matter. Oh and yes mark, Me Rachel, Neil, Huw know who we are…do you work for the FBI ? Report abuse Huw: Re Peters comment that in the 70′s distinguished experts were predicting an new Ice Age is true. They even wrote to the President of the USA about their concerns. ( sorry I can’t be bothered to research the exact facts for you, but at least I’m doing my bit by living a lower carbon foot print than you. Did you drive to the Green Party Conference last week? Jon 43: Words are cheap – especially from a politician. What is required is a little less talk and a lot more action. Report abuse Huw, apologies for my tardy response, I’m afraid have quite a lot of other things to do with my life, unlike, apparently, many of those who frequent futile climate protests and camps, and dress up as penguins in parks! I’m always struck by the irony of climate protestors attempting to claim the high ground from a scientific perspective, yet at the same time throwing their hats in with an assortment of fellow-travellers who believe in such palpable nonsense as homepathy, aromatherapy, the power of crystals and any amount of other ‘bad science’. Now, getting back to your question as to which climate change scientists were global cooling advocates and changed their minds; well how about Dr Reid Bryson, (University of Wisconsin), an ice-age doom-monger in the 70s, subsequently a global-warming proponent, cited by the British Institute of Geographers as the most frequently-cited climatologist in the world. He’s now become a sceptic of either theory. Of course many of those pushing the ice-age theory in the 70s will now be dead or at least no longer active, but the institutions and the pressure groups that supported them continue to this day. Others who have become sceptical include Dr. Vincent Gray, a member of the IPCC’s expert reviewers panel, who concluded that the IPCC’s methods are flawed, that it actively refuses to consider certain types of evidence, and that it is ‘fundamentally corrupt’, or perhaps top geophysicist Dr claude Allegre, one of the first to warn of global warming some 20 years ago. Or even Dr. David ‘grapple me grapenuts’ Bellamy! Actually, it’s OK for science zealots to change their minds, becuase unlike religious zealots, they do at least take account of evidence. The problem arises when the science is hijacked by pressure groups whose influence is such that some of the science, even from eminent people such as those above, is suppressed, because it doesn’t suit their political ends. Any ‘refusenik’ is instantly rubbished and denigrated, no matter how much credence was given to the previously. Now the afore-mentioned sceintists may be wrong – but I think at least their views deserve consideration. Moving to the zero-carbon home view, I looked at the ‘zerocarbonbritain’ website, and was struck by the fanciful nature of some of the ideas stated. For example, the plugging in of all vehicle batteries to faciitate extra storage and power sources for the National Grid! There is also a suggestion that we massively reduce livestock farming in the UK, once again evidence of campaigners seeking to impose their chosen lifestyle on the rest of us – their agenda, like that of religions, is one of control, not planet-saving. Whilst it may be possible to build zero-carbon houses, the fact remains that the vast majority of our dwellings will not be zero-carbon any time in the foreseeable future. Even if they were, would it make even a barely-measurable change to our planet’s climate? I, for one, doubt it. Perhaps you could respond with an accurate prediction of how much the Earth’s temperature would reduce if we took the UK’s carbon output out of the equation? Report abuse Huw Peach asked why Australia signed Kyoto, the answer is because we have a Socialist, corrupt Federal government (Labor – without the u) and until yesterday, all states and territories had Labor govt’s (thankfully West Australia got rid of ours on 14th Sept)and so called climate change is a big money spinner for these left wing Laborites and their grubby little cohorts. We will be even more taxed than at present because of this climate change hysteria. Geoff of Bunbury, Western Australia. Report abuse Graham, your point about one side of the debate being anonymous and the other side giving their names has a lot of bearing on the credibility of the two sides. One side, backed up with overwhelming scientific evidence, has credibility. The other side’s credibility is so tattered that they have to hide behind pseudonyms. If you are looking for good books on the work of PR companies, which spread misinformation, then Sharon Beder’s excellent Global Spin is a good place to start. Apparently last night’s BBC programme, Climate Wars, also put the denial industry under the microscope according to friends I was talking to at lunch today; the denialists didn’t come out looking that good. I missed it unfortunately, but would be interested to hear what you thought if you managed to watch it, Graham. One method used by PR people is to try to confuse the issue or muddy the waters. Then if that fails- they try to persuade you that speaking out or creating a debate where there wasn’t one in the first place is ‘futile’ (like Peter did). The penguin stunt was not at all futile, take it from me. It was brilliant and fun. The fact that we now have someone writing in from Australia shows just how worthwhile your action was, and shows how seriously vested interests are treating this vital debate in Shropshire. Report abuse Huw: Re BBC TVs program, was interesting, but the fact remains that the “experts” got it wrong (according to some) in the 70′s despite all the technology of the time. Perhaps todays “experts” will be proved wrong by tomorrows technology? Its a question of keeping an open mind. As for the sceptics looking bad, I though that they did well making an interesting point that the Global Warming-ists will not part with all the data that they draw their conclusions from. Also NASA had to revise their original results but now say there is only a slight warming – nobody disputes that! At the end of the day, anyone can draw graphs to support a theory, but if they wont share the data to be scuitinised, then I wont take them seriously. Quite frankly, its just another Acropolis theory that human nature has been prone to since the beginning of time. Technology may have advanced rapidly, but by nature, humans are generally no further evolved than cave-men, with religious and superstitious beliefs. To sum up, if you dont believe in Father Christmas, why do you believe in Global Warming? Report abuse Y Mab said: “Its such a small area (The childrens play area) that single persons with no children should not have a issue with being told to avoid it.” It doesn’t say SINGLE people without kids, it says ALL people without kids. You know, like a couple who are anticipating their first child, and enjoy watching children in the playground? HORRORS! THEY MUST BE PAEDOPHILES! Y Mab, please move to the Middle East if you wish to be in an area with authoritarian government, which can stop people for no reason and question them just in case they MIGHT be a criminal. The rest of us like a presumption of innocence when we are doing NOTHING WRONG on PUBLIC property for which we pay taxes. My I suggest a new law, wherein anyone whose name starts with a “Y” is immediately taken into custody and questioned for 12 hours, just in case they might be a daft loon like “Y Mab”? Report abuse Earlier, in response to #49, I asked Peter to name ONE activist who claimed in the 70s that an ice age was coming and is now warning about global warming. Instead of answering Peter provided me with a list of climate change sceptics, and Lucy W said she couldn’t be bothered to look them up but it really really did happen because she said so. These are not answers; they are red herrings. By the way, Peter, talking of vested interests, the only references that I could find on Wikipedia to Dr Reid Bryson (an anthropogenic climate change sceptic) were the ‘Capital Times’ and the ‘Wisconsin Energy Cooperative News’. You claim (mendaciously) in #69 that the British Institute of Geographers say he is ‘the most frequently-cited climatologist in the world’. Perhaps he is the climatologist most frequently cited by the ‘Capital Times’, the ‘Wisconsin Energy Cooperative News’, right-wing bloggers, PR companies working for fossil fuel corporations and corporate front groups. However, readers will confirm that there is NO evidence on the climate change section of the British Institute of Geographers website (yourclimateyourlife.org.uk) that what you say is true. In fact, if they investigate it, they will see that the British Institute of Geographers website is entirely devoted to explaining the REALITY of man-made climate change. Or are you going to start saying that the ‘British Institute of Geographers’ are ‘zealots’ now, Peter? Report abuse Granger, I disagree with you and agree with Graham that in a democracy everyone should be free to express their opinions. Y Mab has said some ridiculous things about climate change, too, and runs away every time he is asked to defend his views. However, censoring anyone is abhorrent in a democracy. Report abuse Huw: Re 70′s ice-age prediction. I was taught it in school. I heard about it recently on Radio 4 and it was detailed on that BBC TV programme the other night. Personally I would not rely on Wikapedia for facts! Why dont you watch it again on the Web and you might learn something. Sorry, but quoting names doesn’t make the matter correct. Can you tell me where I can find the data that supports Global Warming? I know it must have been a big dissappointment when you learnt that Father Christmas wasnt real, but I’m sure you got over it, just as you will when you realise that you have been taken in by Global Warming. Did you drive to the Green Party Conference by the way? You never seem to answer that question, while you are swift to make the point that other people haven’t answered you questions!! Report abuse No, I didn’t drive to the Green Party conference. If you are interested in seeing our leader Caroline Lucas’s GREEN NEW DEAL speech to the conference, then you can watch the YouTube links on the GP website without driving there. Report abuse Peter, who seems to have disappeared after being caught red-handed telling porky pies about the British Institute of Geographers, also mentioned David Bellamy as a sceptic. He might therefore find the correspondence about climate change between George Monbiot and David Bellamy (posted on monbiot.com on August 19, 2004) very revealing. Like Y Mab, Peter and countless others, David Bellamy stops debating when he knows his evidence base is so thin. Report abuse I have not yet seen Climate Wars, but will do so soon. You asked, ‘Can you tell me where I can find the data that supports Global Warming?’ According to my friends, who told me about the programme, the data you are looking for is the star of the programme and the sceptic argument is annihilated with it, Lucy. Have you seen the programme? Report abuse Huw: Re David Bellamy, the last time I heard him, a few weeks ago, he was a sceptic. Re Climate Wars, yes I watched it so know what I am talking about unlike you, Huw, who readily talks with “authority” about what you do not know anything about. Re Data: I have no idea what you are saying. Where can I find the data for climate change so that it can be scrutinised? The program made the point that such data is withheld by the GW Theorists and this point was never chalanged by the Theorists in what was a balanced program. So as far as I can see, the Global Warming arguement is as convincing as Scientology. If you wish to believe all the gloss and spin, thats fine by me, but I would rather wait and see the facts for myself or at least wait for them to be open to scrutiny. So I assume that you are a believer based on blind faith alone as the data is not available for scrutiny – or can you tell me how you can be so sure of your beliefs (other than other people say so). PS I didn’t think the sceptic arguement was annihilated at all. As a scientific person myself, I recognised the flaws that were being raised by the sceptics. It was interesting that NASA made their data available for scruitiny and revised their conclusions upon being advised that they had flaws in their scientific method. Report abuse I shouldn’t, as you rightly say, comment on Climate Wars, as I haven’t yet seen it. However, my point about what my friends said about it, was legitimate. None of these people, who saw the programme, is a Scientologist, a believer in Father Christmas or blind. In fact these people who used the word ‘annihilated’ read copious data in the press on a daily basis. It is you who seem blind to it. It is interesting that different people watching the same programme can draw such polarized conclusions. You also seem blind to the unequivocal conclusion that the programme made, which is the same one that the British Institute of Geographers, David Attenborough and the overwhelming majority of the world’s peer-reviewed scientific literature is saying: THE EARTH IS WARMING AND MAN IS CONTRIBUTING TO IT. Your data red herring is pitiful almost by your standards, Lucy. I almost feel sorry for you. Report abuse Sorry Huw, I cant comment any futher as what you have to say is hearsay. The majority of scientist thought the world was flat. I can remember, the ice-age prediction, acid rain killing all the trees, nucleaur anialation, Y2K bug devastaing the world, AIDS and bird flu wiping the population out. These were all hysterical accopolys theories – so is Global Warming. At the end of the day, you can not point to any data that is available for scrutiny. Your are welcome to your blind faith, but I personally take a more scientific approach to these matters. NASA’s data was made open to scrutiny and the undisputed conclusion is a very slight warming at the moment consistent with normal fluctuations. No need to feel sorry for me Huw, just show me the data that can be scrutinised. Report abuse What do you think other readers think of your ‘more scientific approach to these matters’, Lucy, when they read the data provided by the Hadley Centre/Met Office on its website? You can find this data at under various different sub-headings. Each of these facts is accompanied by data, which completely undermines your case. Report abuse Huw: Thank you for that link, however it does not make the data available for scruitiny! IF YOU THINK A PRETTY GRAPH IS DATA – THEN YOU NEED TO LEARN SOME SCIENTIFIC TECHNIQUE. It is just the conclusion. Nevertheless I would like to make the following brief comment. Fact1 It is an OBSERVERED increase of 0.7 degrees C, this is due to the inaccuracies of the weather stations being sited too close to development and so giving a higher reading due to the thermal “radiator” effect of built up locations. The Las Vegas weather station by the airport gives a 3 degree reading higher than in the desert! The Theorists will not provide details of all the stations used so that they can be checked for this effect – well I smell a rat! The MODEL shows that we are cooler than the 1860’s – so what are we to make of Climate Modelling? The Vikings sailed through the North West Passage – the ice melt is nothing new! There is nothing further I have to add as the remainder is an extenuation of Fact1 Report abuse Basically this issue boils down to one thing: trust. I trust David Attenborough, the Met Office, the British Institute of Geographers and the Royal Society. And I DO NOT trust Lucy W. Nor do I trust anonymous bloggers who leave the debate (like Peter) when their claims are unravelled. This is the pattern of ALL debates on climate change, which I have been involved on the Shropshire Star site. Lucy W’s claims about low-carbon lifestyle ( #114) are about as believable as Peter’s claim about the British Institute of Geographers and Y Mab’s demonstrably absurd claims that ‘the majority of the population is quite happy with the world as it is’. Does Y Mab imagine that people are enjoying the sight of the unregulated international finance system unravelling before their eyes with the inevitable knock-on impacts on their jobs and livelihoods? The Royal Society, Britain’s scientific body, deals with Lucy’s red herring about models on its website under Misleading Argument No 5. Sharon Beder looks at the work of PR companies, whose job is to confuse the public about issues like climate change in her brilliant book, Global Spin. In the meantime the slow, but steady work of getting a couple of people interested in the issues, building a slightly bigger organisation, planning the next move, experiencing frustration and then finally getting somewhere is continuing. The world is changing and there is nothing that the Lucys, Peters and Y Mabs of this world can do about it as long as they hide behind pseudonyms. True democrats build up trust; enemies of democracy undermine it. Report abuse Huw: Re trust, that was my original point. You have blind faith in GW-ing and I am sceptical because the theorists will not allow their data to be scrutinised. You are clearly rattled at this point, perhaps you should re-think your values. As for the Met Office – they cant get tomorrows weather right – remember Michael Fish and the “hurricane”? As for the pattern of GW debate, you either ignore a fair comment or get in a strop when a fair comment is made. As for my low-carbon life style, perhaps you could tell me what you don’t believe about it and I will gladly email you a photograph or video clip as factual evidence. I have nothing to hide, unlike you Huw, who is clearly embarrassed that as an “embassador” of Green issues, you are not setting a very good example. And finally, what has democracy got to do with all this? Report abuse Poor, poor Huw. You go through your rather sheltered life reading messages about doom and gloom and losing sleep over them like a five year old child worries that santa claus might not come down his chimney this year. Get out into the real world and worry about things that might actually happen or are actually happening. We can’t stop global warming any more than we can stop animals killing each other, wars or people getting killed either at work or on the road. We can worry ourselves sick about it happening or we can just get on with life…I know what I would prefer to do! Report abuse Thanks but no thanks for the offer of the video clips, Lucy. Why not just give your full name on this very public thread? I give mine here because I can then be held accountable if I make mistakes. That’s how democracies work. You asked ‘what has democracy got to do with all this?’ Everything. Decisions taken today about whether the country should embrace the GREEN NEW DEAL and start a green industrial revolution or build Kingsnorth and undermine our climate targets are political decisions. These political decisions are the result of democratic debate. In November and early December 2009, the Danish government will host the COP15 conference which will determine whether there will be a replacement agreement to the Kyoto Protocol. Many democracies are taking part in this conference, and many PR organisations working for the fossil fuel industry are doing their utmost to undermine this democracy. So IMHO democracy has everything to do with the climate change debate, Lucy. Threads like this could potentially be used for grassroots real world democracy if people were willing to identify themselves as I am prepared to do, and you and BRIAN(2) are not. If you are right about global warming and the science academies of Brazil, Canada, China, France, Germany, Italy, India, Japan, Mexico, Russia, South Africa, the UK and the USA are all wrong, then they could all congratulate you on your scientific method in the infinitesimally unlikely event that the evidence shifted your way. But we will not be doing so, because the overwhelming evidence from the peer-reviewed scientific literature is that mankind is contributing to climate change. No matter how many red herrings you send out your anonymity undermines your credibility. Report abuse BRIAN(2) it’s great to hear from you again. Why, though, are you debating with people like me? Surely you are undermining your message about how we should all be outside enjoying ourselves. Or is your message the same as Lucy’s message that people like me and the Telford penguins should get outside and just leave democracy to the anonymous PR industry? Report abuse If readers want to get out in the real world and research examples of PR campaigns and self-serving anti-environmental front groups, then I recommend they read about the Global Climate Coalition on Sourcewatch. Here is a well-documented example of how democracy has everything to do with this debate and how it is being undermined by some very determined corporations. Report abuse Huw: I find your constant request for my personal details abit creepy to be honest. I did offer evidence of my green credential, but you seem to have declined the offer. It strikes me that once you form an opinion you do not want to consider any fact that may prove you wrong. I believe that your closed mind is what drives you forward with GW obsession. As for the Telford Penguins, you have obviously not read my comments on this matter. For you benefit, I respect the actions, views and rights of these people. And trust that they respect mine. I even suggested that the Park has a “Speakers Corner” to promote such activity. So instead of twisting the matter around to my full name and address, please could you tell me what you dont believe about my low-carbon life style, or withdraw the implication that I am dishonest. I quite anticipate that you will dodge this challenge, like you always do when you know you are wrong. Report abuse It has just been brougt to my attention that it is comment 103 on Huw’s link where I state a few of my low-carbon/green life style choices. (Not 114 as Huw incorrectly states). I would be very interested to hear from people who have made such choices so we can swap tips etc. I have some chickens, eggs and garden produce for sale for anyone who is interested in saving the food miles. I also collect waste newspapers and card and sell it for recycling (as well as metals)- why give it to the council? I will recieve it for charities and pass on the money. Report abuse So who should people wanting to swap tips write to, Lucy W? And, if you are what you say you are, what do you think of the well-documented evidence I mentioned on SOURCEWATCH that PR companies are undermining our democracy and the scientific consensus on climate change on behalf of big, powerful corporations? Report abuse Why are low carbon / green life style choices so important for someone who equates the scientific consensus on climate change with a belief system and who has such a virulently anti-environmental agenda? Report abuse Lucy, I too find Huw’s persistance of wanting peoples names from which he can obtain addresses very suspicious too, I would consider reporting him if he pushes for that information and not send him any e mails from which he can trace you. Keep up with your truly green life style…it seems you are the only true green in this debate. Report abuse Huw: I guess there is no further comment I can make while you dodge the challenge I made in comment 91. You imply I am dishonest but refuse to state what you dont belive about my eco-credentials or withdraw such a defaming remark. You behavior is typical of bad loosers, you resort to personal abuse and ridicule when someone makes a fair point that you cant challenge. You are very misled if you believe there is a scientific consensus on GW – far from it! As I said before, you are welcome to your blind faith, I will stick to facts that are open to scrutiny. So are you going to withdraw your allegation that I have made a false statement about my eco-credential or are you going to tell me what is false and allow me to provide evidence? Its up to you Huw to be a man or carry on as you are, like a little child, throwing his toys out the pram because he cant get the attention and admiration he seeks! Report abuse Dear Lucy, a friend pointed me towards this website as I have chickens as well. I have Wellsummer purebreds that are still laying but I only get one egg every three days. I have bred from the hens, but they dont seem to go very broody and feel that I need a new cock to bring some fresh blood into them. I was thinking of crossing them with a Rhode Island Red. What do you think? What breed(s) do you keep – any tips to keep them laying in the colder months? P.S. Your caravan with a wood-stove sounds very cosy now the dark nights are drawing in. Report abuse John: Gosh I wasn’t expecting such a technical question! (I had to ask my Dad) He tells me that Wellsummers are really ornamental birds with the cocks being quite spectaculor. They are not great layers or broodies. However RIR’s are and in theory may improve production by crossing. I have Burford x Legbars (Legbar being a hybrid cross of Leghorn and Barr Rock). Both pure-bred Burfords and Leghorns can be sexed by plumage, but the cross I have can’t – damn! The cross produced large brown eggs (Burfords) and smaller green eggs (Legbar) but the hens are indistinguishable. I have been crossing a BxLB cock with a BxLB hen and they are throwing back some pure LB and pure Black Rock hens (cocks all seem to be crosses)! All very intriguing, but the LB is a complicated hybrid produced from sex linkage, so I expect a geneticist would understand. As for cooler weather, the only solution is some heat and keep them indoors which probably isn’t economic sense. When I was a child, we used to move our RIR’s into large empty greenhouses for he winter. Hope that helps, if you want some sitting eggs anytime (BxLB x BxLB), I’d be happy to post some. Report abuse Nice try, guys. I have to confess, it has cheered up my morning. However, even the most credulous child who still believes in Santa Claus would have smelt a rat when John started talking about his cock problems. Can we now get back to what ‘green’ Lucy thinks about the well-documented attempts by PR organisations to undermine trust and our democracy by confusing the public and spreading misinformation about climate change? Report abuse Abraham Lincoln: You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time. Report abuse Huw: First things first. Can we get back to what you dont believe about my eco-credentials or do you wish to withdraw your earlier remark? Report abuse Dear Lucy Gosh I wasn’t expecting such a technical answer! I was told that Wellsummers were the ones used in the Kellog Cornflakes adverts so assumed that they would be good layers. Obviously not so. I gather by you/your fathers knowledge that you are a country people who know a thing or two about poultry. Perhaps changing mine to Burford x Legbar might be the sensible thing to do, but I don’t know anyone who would want my Wellsummers, even for free. Is your cross bred just your own preference or a breeding used by people who know? I have seen small green eggs in Waitrose that are very expensive. Are they Legbar eggs? Why are they so expensive? Report abuse Still here Huw,, but as I’ve said before, quite busy – and clearly with less time on my hands than you. I’m frankly quite annoyed that you should accuse me of telling lies. I just got my sources from a different part of the internet than you. Unfortunately in common with all zealots, you simply won’t even countenance the other side of the argument. You still haven’t offered any answer to my question about how much difference our current pain in terms of high fuel prices, all of our recycling, and having to suffer constant 24-hour propaganda will actually make to the temperaturew of the planet. Perhaps I should accuse you of ‘disappearing’ on that one? I believe the planet is going through a period of warming – I believe it’s done so before – there’s evidence for that, and I believe our use of vehicles etc. may be exacerbating this slightly – but that’s not the cause. But Huw, trying to present any argument to you is like trying to persuade avowed Creationists that the world really isn’t 5000 years old. It’s pointles, because they , like you are determined to believe what they want to believe, no matter what. I’ll carry on sleeping soundly in my bed knowing that the Planet will sort itself out, as it has done before. You carry on with the sackcloth and ashes, and telling the waves to go back if it makes you feel better. Report abuse Peter: Glad to hear I’m not the only one Huw ignores when he finds a question difficuklt/embarrasing to answer. I dont expect he will ever tell me what he says is disbelievable about my eco-claims. His problem is I live a greener lifestyle than he does, yet I dont believe in the Global Warming rubbish he spouts on about. Wish I could end this post on a witty line but I dont think I can better your sackcloth and ashes one! Report abuse John: Try your local Indian Restaurante, they usually buy old hens. My BxLB are infact used for commercial laying and are infact the same green eggs that Waitroses sell for silly money although there is no justification for the price. However I have heard that commercial producers are now backing out of that market as the credit crunch is effecting peoples spending attitudes in that respect – so perhap there could be a niche opening up? I have just made a contact with someone who has a 140 egg incubator, so I will probably do one large hatching in the spring. Report abuse The problem with councils and the Green Issue is that they don’t really know what they are doing. Take for example the West Sussex council who last week decided to fine motorists for leaving their engines idling for more than a few seconds. Once again the council showed it’s total ignorance of practical matters and common sense. They didn’t realise that switching engines on and off continuously causes more pollution and was likely to result in flat batteries, cars going no-where and even more hold ups causing even more pollution…where do these people get their intelligence from??? Report abuse Brian(2): There is also a Health and Safety issue there as well. Air Bags wont work if the ignition is switched off!!! What do these Greenies want, Mr Polar Bear to keep his paws dry while we all get killed on the roads? (Second thoughts, thats might solve their Global Warming fantasy) Report abuse Peter, r.e your comment (in #69) about Dr Reid Bryson being ‘the most frequently-cited climatologist in the world’ according to the British Institute of Geographers. Could you please 1) give me the reference for this? 2) explain why the British Institute of Geographers devotes its website to explaining the reality of man-made climate change? Report abuse Graham Bunn (one of the Telford penguins) (#67) ‘Climate change is not a belief system like religion ,it is a theory backed up by substantial scientific evidence.’ Lucy W., you said in #91, ‘I respect the actions, views and rights of these people’ [the Telford penguins]. I think, like most things you say, something doesn’t add up. How can you say that I am ‘spouting climate change rubbish’ if you respect the Telford penguins’ views? Do you believe that these institutions which have issued strongly worded statements on climate change are also ‘spouting climate change rubbish’?. Report abuse Dear Lucy Thank you for your information. I certainly need to rethink my flock. I presume you have a licence from DEFRA as it appears that you have over 50 birds. I dont want to get that large but have wondered if it is possible to increase a flock to a profitable level whilst producing a quality product with the highest animal welfare standards. I understand that “Barn” and “Free Range” regulations are not quite as the consumer imagines. Report abuse Huw: I refer you to my comment #101. It is my infererence by your ommision to deal with this, that you are ashamed that you wrongly called me a liar. Report abuse Lucy, Huw will always turn a deaf ear when he knows he is in the wrong . This has happened on several other threads where he has accused others of doing something or saying something which is totally different to what has actually been said. To know Huw is to love him!!! Report abuse Peter, you said (#103), ‘Unfortunately in common with all zealots, you simply won’t even countenance the other side of the argument.’ However, it seems that nearly every contributor to these discussion boards is a climate-change denying zealot, who will not countenance the other side of the argument. If not, then what do they have to say about the institutions that I cited in comment #109? Report abuse BRIAN (2), thanks for the love. However, I would prefer an answer from you. As Peter won’t comment on the institutions I mentioned in #109, maybe you can. Or are you deaf to this sort of thing? Report abuse

Friday, 10 February 2012 Weariness doesn't make a good-bye easier to say The moment I stepped out of college last year, for the very last time, I told myself I wouldn't want to return again. I didn't want to return to forge another special set of memories, I mean. I wanted my memories in NJ to be plain good days of myself, my teachers and my friends, with myself transforming from what I was four years back into one who I wouldn't have imagined myself to be at the end of last year. But things change, as always. And so, I returned this year. No longer as a student, but a teacher - even though I was there for relief duties. Teaching makes you learn so much - about yourself, about the career, about people, and about the heart of gold that all educators ought to (if not, already) possess. It's like, once you enter the profession, you wouldn't think about anything else but the kids who are under your special care. You want to give them the very best education they can ever receive, you want them to learn and understand everything that you have in mind for them. You want to nurture them into the best that they can be, you want to inspire them and earn their smiles with your wisdom. I didn't want to return to teach and do other things in school for a particular reason, and that is so that I wouldn't run into the risk of starting a brand new chapter in NJC and begin to forget the stories I already had. I didn't want to let new memories replace the importance of the old, since the old matter so much to me. Having said so, I'm glad to say that I do not regret taking up the opportunity. For what could matter more than bringing smiles to people's faces and making positive differences to their lives? To everyone out there: love your teachers and cherish them more; everything they have done for you is much more than what you actually see. Proud to have been a student, an educator, an NJCian. Sunday, 05 February 2012 Feelings, places, impermanence. Plain amazing, how a call can brighten up one's day. Nice to hear from you, J. Missed your absence over the past few weeks- even though it wasn't a lot (well, especially when I was working quite hard in school). Anyway, the phone call's not a big deal. There's something else more important to note, something else that was felt and realised today. So after lunch with my family, I dropped by the library@Esplanade again. An old hangout, frequented especially often last year, when I was busy preparing myself for papers after papers which eventually led to the big 'A's. At that point in time, I can still roughly recall, every time I set foot into that icy-cold paradise (well, it really was- for the more artsy fartsy people), I was prepared to be fully focused and driven to work at my best. Didn't succeed all the time but I tried, I remember I did try. And every time when I felt that I needed some break, I'd get off one of those tall chairs stationed along the 'inner circle' and walk around the mall or hunt for discs in the library that would have music that I believed was nice. On certain Saturdays, I'd be fortunate enough to sit in the musical performances at the Open Mic whenever I wanted to be liberated from work for just a little while. Those were the days which I had that burden on me, that burden which so many others were carrying together with me. I didn't know it was so heavy. Not until today, when I visited library@Esplanade for the first time I believe- the very first time after that burden was lifted off my shoulders. The feeling I experienced was undoubtedly different. Had plans to finish reading my book (that's been with me for quite a few months) before heading for dance, but ended up doing other things instead. I borrowed two movies that I picked from the shelves (and this careful selection took me close to an hour), and then adjourned to enjoy the beautiful pieces performed by some budding local singers at the Open Mic. It was during the show that the memories of the past surfaced, together with several thoughts and a simple reflection. Being in the same place, where everything is pretty much stagnant and the unchanged, does not necessitate the generation and experience of the same emotions you've once had. This revelation's not exactly something completely new to anyone I believe (I do remember thinking about something similar previously), but what's different this time is the concept that came upon me. The concept of impermanence. Nothing ever remains the same- even if the conditions were, would your feelings and thoughts still be like before? It's something we don't need to proclaim to or convince the whole world about. We know it best. So here's a gentle reminder- to all and myself, to remember to let go. We should begin with letting go of attachments, so as to be able to move on with life and embrace the present moment. Sunday, 22 January 2012 Capturing the captured One of the best moments in life occurs when you realise that even though the one you care about isn't here by your side, The spiritual connection remains. Happy Lunar New Year to all! May all be well and happy :) Wednesday, 14 December 2011 You Are The Apple Of My Eye Opportunities, spotlight, aspirations. - Best Dancer, NJC Graduation Night 2011 Sorry for neglecting you, my dearest blog. BUT I'M BACK TO REVIVE YOU! No way am I able to elaborate on how interesting and fun-filled my life after A's is; it's just too much yeah, but I'll try by keeping things short and stating only the memorable features. Right. Actually fun started RIGHT AFTER A's were over. Went over to Qizhen's place to celebrate her 18th! It was a pretty good time chilling out at her place, watching MAMA, pigging out, playing with her baby cousin (I forgot that cutie's name though, I think it's Darius) and chit-chatting. Couldn't camp over 'cause I figured that I needed to recharge for the next day's FUN and it could have been better if we had a sleepover another time. AFTER YOUR JAPAN TRIP YEAH, CHEESE :) So on the 30th, I WENT TO UNIVERSAL STUDIOS SINGAPORE!!!! Yes I certainly enjoyed myself, so much so that I almost got sick of the most exciting ride 'cause I sat on it so many so many times ._. It was still a really good experience though, especially when I got to catch up with my old buddy too. Heh. From Thursday to Monday, I was rather caught up with Grad Night affairs - with little events popping up occasionally. Skipping this part. And here's a Grad Night photo to make this segment less dull. Grad Night reminds me of Council, and Council reminds me of my dearest Core. Couldn't find a perfect shot, but I guess any would do yes? Tuesday was a rest day; needed it rather badly since I was up almost the entire night chatting with Chungz. We only returned to the hotel room from Starbucks @ Wheelock close to 6.30am on Tuesday morning itself 'cause I couldn't wait till I wake up to get my Starbucks tumbler. A fool, a kia-su, yes that's what I am. At least I got my tumbler! :P Wednesday was BFY Dance + OG outing day. First dance lesson I went for after my hiatus, which lasted close to a year. Rusty already, but I'm determined to polish myself so as to shine like before. As for the OG outing, I went late 'cause I went only after dance. Guess what mattered most wasn't that much of the time spent with the bunch, but getting to see all of us gathering together even after school has ended is more than just amazing (at least to me). Some ties don't last this long, really. Thursday was fairly exciting as well, as I went to town with Vanessa. It was pretty much a last minute thing, 'cause we had something up our sleeves (which I don't believe that it's timely to disclose just yet). Surprising as it may sound, but it was actually our first time going out together. Figured that we really got to know each other better through our not-that-long HTHT over our "mission" and food, which made the day a really sweet one to me. Not to forget, Ah Yeh and I had KFC for dinner on that Thursday. Sometimes it's not really what you eat that matters, but the circumstance and the people you enjoy your food with :) OKAY YOU KNOW WHAT. This will take too long and the description of each day will only be more and more meaningless. So, I should do a summing up. :) What I appreciated the most after A's is the time I now have to do what I wish to do. Not all, but at least some of the many things I have wanted to accomplish. Needless to say, I wanted the time to spend with, and catch up with my friends and all the ones dear to me. It's a different experience, really, to meet up with those people during school days and this break. I guess the main difference is the sort of liberation and light-heartedness you get when you communicate with the ones you care. I felt less worn out, less bogged down with burdens and responsibilities, and certainly more carefree. This time, my purpose for each outing isn't that much to allow myself to relax and take a break from the hustle and bustle. It is more of taking the effort to make up for the times I'd missed out with my close ones and to sustain, if not revive, the friendships that were made. So, no matter how much cash I burn in the process, no matter how tired I am, I know I need to maximise the amount of time I have at this point in time. Such long breaks are rare, you know. Oh I am glad that I'm able to read during this break as well; it helps to keep my brain cells alive and ensures that my intellect won't be all gone in no time yeah. ;) Cleared "The Essence of Happiness" already, and I'm beginning with another now - "The Spirit of Buddha". Back to friendships. It's actually now that I discover how little I know of the ones I care. No, I don't mean it in a negative way, but pretty much in a happy way. It's that kind of, "wow, I think you're really even cooler now that I know you even more" feeling. I managed to see the different perspectives of people that I've never seen, and I must say that it was enlightening. Exhausting as it may be, but getting to know more of the ones dear to me only gives me more motivation to carry on with my hectic self-planned schedule. What else can I say, but I'm contented, or even more than contented, with the life I have right now. Will not be resistant to change though, for I recognise that the Suffering of Change can be remedied. ;) Thursday, 01 December 2011 Happy Fourteenth Still love you, Qing. Wherever you are. Saturday, 03 September 2011 The things we cherish. Hello bloggie, Makie's back to visit! :) Let me share a story with you. More than ten years ago (about twelve, to be more exact), I was down with chickenpox. And yes, I was quarantined for two whole weeks - slacking in bed, doing nothing besides sleeping, eating, watching TV and perhaps a little bit of work. It was so long ago that I can't remember the specifics yeah. One thing I know for sure, though, was that I had (and still have) a great and affectionate grandpa who bothered to travel all the way to my Primary school to meet my teacher to collect my homework during my absence. From that moment, I knew that she was a special teacher. She was my form teacher - Mrs Gopal. That simple pleasant-looking lady who wore her sari (I think) to school daily, still resonates vividly in my mind. It occurred to my grandpa that she's an exceptionally caring teacher and being a little girl who I was, that notion and impression of Mrs Gopal was deeply embedded in my mind. I'm sure, to a large extent, Mrs Gopal contributed to my childhood ambition of taking up the teaching profession. (It's not that I don't want to be a teacher anymore but, you wouldn't want to jeopardize your children's education by placing them in my hands yeah. I'm not exactly proficient in anything in particular.. BUT, I may soon be - you'll never know.) That's pretty much the end of my chickenpox story, which brings me to share with you the next thing on my plate - teachers. I'll skip Secondary School and move on to The College of The Nation - Home of Scholars and Leaders (and Amanda Mak) who Serve with Honour :) [Noooo, I love IJSN and (almost) every single bit in that little cozy home but I can't ramble on about every single school I've attended since I was born - this post will take for ever to be done.] Having spent close to four years in MY current abode, I've to say, my love for it isn't that simple or little. Friends aside, environment aside, it is the teachers who shaped me into what I'm today. Definitely not the best student in all aspects, but certainly not one of the worst I suppose. Without them, I wouldn't have the drive to study hard and keep up with the pace of work. Without them, I wouldn't have mustered the courage to step out of my comfort zone to embark on many of my life's firsts. Without them, I wouldn't be here with the words I have to say. I love you, teachers. Thanks for every ounce of effort you spent preparing for classes and helping us learn. Thanks for always attempting to make lessons engaging and interactive. Thanks for offering your support and listening ears when we need them the most. Thanks for being there, to share and care. You make us special; and for that, you are special. Couldn't reach out to all of you teachers who once enlightened me with your wisdom, but here's a message to wish all of you, the happiest Teachers' Day (I know it's belated but, it's always better late than never!) and even though most or all of you won't see it, I hope this gets sent into your dreams, somehow, in some way. Hope you enjoyed reading my little prose, bloggie! Will be back to talk a bit more about myself soon - when I feel like it, HEH. Tuesday, 09 August 2011 The Red, The White. HELLO BLOGGIE. & Happy National Day, Singapore~! Now, let me share with you the eventful day I had yesterday! (That left me with a terribly sore back.) So we had NDC in school, proudly organised by the 44th Student Council! Pretty interesting AND successful I'd say. It's definitely something commendable since it's their FIRST big ad-hoc carried out by themselves. Would have been better if Aerius clinched the NE Cup but it's okay. It still was a great (NDC) finale to my four-year journey. Not that I'm bragging but, y'know, in the years that I participated in NDC, AERIUS WON!!! Haha, I certainly miss those days when I pwned the stage. But I do miss being part of an audience as well. Sometimes, when you give others the opportunity to showcase themselves, it's a win-win situation. You make others happy, you get to appreciate the full show, you get to enjoy yourself with all your friends (and yes, you get much less stress too ). Heh, sounds good eh? Took photos of Kaitlyn (Ms Chan's baby girl) as well! And here's a photo with her! After NDC, Louise and I did a little work in school before proceeding to IKEA for lunch. She was really hungry that's why, hahaha. (We were supposed to be having lunch with Shouj together with some birthday celebrations afterwhich, when Jia Yi's done with her Math test. But Lou was too hungry, so... ) IKEA then Vivo. (Window-)Shopped quite a bit but it was enough to drain us completely. When we met up with the other girls, Lou and I were half-dead. Went to Resorts World Sentosa after that to launch our photo-taking spree and carry out our surprise for Shouj! A pretty fun-filled and crazy afternoon we all had, so crazy and tiring that I switched to 'Hibernating' mode halfway through. Ended the day around 6pm and that's about it! Once again, happy birthday Shoujjjjj~ Sunday, 31 July 2011 GET A GRIP FOR YOUR RACQUET, MAKKKKK! Black's not v. nice and somehow, the feel isn't exactly there either :( Haha hello bloggie! It's been a while since I last visited you. Guess what, SUPERMAN GREW EVEN MORE THIS WEEK. So happy for it! :D Hm and I've to confess, I haven't exactly been a good girl this week. I didn't keep to my promise of sleeping early. And the punishment for that is a hideous pimple and horrifying eyebags :/ Worst of all, I HAVEN'T BEEN VERY PRODUCTIVE TOOOOO. I seem to have mastered the art of slackingz. I know this for sure as the Facebook tab is staring straight into my eyes. Oh well, I'll just take it as some form of training - by training myself to leave Facebook on YET be able to complete my work. Yep. That should do. :) Oh oh! And I'm pretty proud of myself today! Right, if you thought that my comment on my racquet grip is purely random, you are WRONG. I'm proud of myself because I WOKE UP EARLY TODAY TO PLAY TENNIS WITH SYLVIAAAAAA! I woke up before 7am today all right! No mean feat eh (bearing in mind that today's a Sunday)! I'm happy because I finally brought Mr Reddie to suntan a little, after cooping it at home for almost a year. I PROMISE THAT I WON'T LEAVE YOU ALONE FOR SO LONG ANYMORE K! And another proud achievement of mine - I CLEANED THE FAN IN MY ROOM TODAY. :D Heh, that's all for now I guess! I shall continue doing work :) Sunday, 24 July 2011 Saturday, 23 July 2011 M. 011093 Proud to be, a fresh A' Level Graduate. Currently working as a relief tutor in National Junior College, providing educational support for JH3 Math students. LiveJournal ♥Plants ♥Nature Trails ♥Photography ♥Reading ♥Inspiring Perhaps, Connections Aditi Brenda Cedric Chandel Christine Claria Darren Dionne Edmund Ervin Eugenie Eunice Galvin Hao Qing Hazel Jayme Jia Li Joanne Joel Kai Rou Kee Wei Kenji Kenji's evil twin Kristel Krystal Luke Madeline Mardhiyyah Matthew Melody Nadine Nicholas Shi Lee Shoujin Wen Jie Xiu Yi Yi Sin Yu Ying Yvett Zi En

وثيقة - India: The Death Penalty in India: A lethal lottery: A study of Supreme Court judgments in death penalty cases 1950-2006 (summary report) The Death Penalty in India: A Lethal Lottery A study of Supreme Court judgments in death penalty cases 1950-2006 Introduction India stands poised between the global trend to end the death penalty and those nations that continue to execute. Like many of the diminishing number of nations that still apply the death penalty, over the last two decades, India has reduced the number of executions carried out. The Indian judiciary has ruled that the death penalty for murder must be restricted to the “rarest of rare” cases, but this instruction has been contradicted by the legislature increasing the number of offences punishable by death. The death penalty is mandatory under two of the relevant laws, including for drug-related offences. Death sentences have been imposed on people who may have been children at the time of the crime, and on people suffering from mental illness. There are grave concerns about arbitrariness and discrimination in the processes that lead to people being sentenced to death. Such factors would render India’s use of the death penalty to be in violation of international laws and standards. Amnesty International is urging the Government of India to declare an immediate moratorium on executions with a view to abolishing the death penalty. As an emerging global and regional power and a party to the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights and other international human rights treaties, India has an opportunity to exercise regional leadership and to strong signal of its determination to fully uphold human rights by abolishing the death penalty.ist in practice” in that they retain the death penalty for ordinary crimes such as murder but have not executed anyone during the past 10 years and are believed to have a policy or established practice of not carrying out executions, meaning that a total of 135 of the world’s nations have turned their back on capital punishment in law or practice. The worldwide trend towards abolition is strong and clear. Outside China, an execution is becoming an increasingly rare event. Vast swathes of the world are now execution-free. In Africa only five countries executed in 2007; Belarus is the only European country that continues to use the death penalty; and the USA is the sole country in the Americas to have carried out any executions since 2003. This trend was most recently illustrated by the world community voting at the United Nations General Assembly for a moratorium on executions. The resolution was passed on 18 December 2007 by 104 votes to 54 (with 29 abstentions). Regrettably, India voted with the minority. The resolution is clear in its aim and instructs countries to impose an immediate moratorium on executions as a first step towards abolition. At the end of 2007, some 14 countries in Asia Pacific still retained the death penalty, including China, where executions outnumber those in the rest of the world combined. However, there is movement towards abolition in the region. In 2006 and 2007 respectively, the Philippines and the Cook Islands abolished the death penalty joining those 17 other Asia Pacific countries that have abolished the death penalty for all crimes.2Twenty seven countries have now abolished the death penalty in law or in practice in the Asia Pacific region. In South Korea and Mongolia there have been legislative initiatives to abolish the death penalty. There have also been increased levels of regional activism against the death penalty by individuals and civil society groups.3 This report summarises the key findings of the report of Amnesty International-India and the People’s Union for Civil Liberties (Tamil Nadu & Puducherry), released on 2 May 2008 (hereafter referred to as the study). The study, entitled study and its summary seek to bring objectivity to the debate on the death penalty in India and, by so doing, to persuade the public and decision-makers that society will be better off by outlawing the punishment. Facts and figures There are two broad categories of legislation providing for the death penalty in India: the Indian Penal Code (IPC), and special or local legislation. Within the IPC, nine offences are punishable by death.4At least 14 other ‘special’ or ‘local’ laws also provide for the death penalty.5Three of these are successive anti-terror laws. The most recent law to be passed that provides for the death penalty is the Unlawful Activities (Prevention) Ordinance 2004. The government of India will not disclose how many people have been executed and how many are awaiting execution today. According to the latest official figures, there were 273 persons under sentence of death as of 31 December 2005. However, the National Crime Records Bureau, which publishes these figures, does not distinguish between condemned prisoners whose sentences have been passed by a trial court, those whose sentences have been upheld by a High Court or the Supreme Court, and those whose mercy petitions are pending or have been rejected by the executive. Amnesty International believes this figure to be a gross underestimate. At least 140 people are believed to have been sentenced to death in 2006 and 2007. Some 44 persons are currently known to be on death row awaiting a decision on their mercy petitions by the President of India (the last possible recourse). The execution of some of these prisoners may be imminent. Executions in India are carried out by hanging. The death penalty process Under the ordinary criminal law, all trials involving a possible death sentence are initially held before a District and Sessions Court at state level. Death sentences imposed in such trials must be reviewed by the High Court of the same state, which has the power to direct further inquiry to be made or additional evidence to be taken upon any point bearing on the guilt or innocence of the defendant. In the High Court, a bench comprising a minimum of two judges must, on appreciation of the facts, come to its own conclusion on guilt and award sentence as deemed fit in the circumstances of the case. Based on its assessment of the evidence on record, the High Court may confirm the death sentence or impose another sentence in its place; annul the conviction and convict for any other offence of which the Sessions Court might have convicted the defendant, or order a new trial on the basis of the amended charge; or acquit the defendant. The High Court serves as the first court of appeal for a person sentenced to death, except under some anti-terrorist legislation where the Supreme Court of India is the first appellate court. Where a death sentence has not been imposed by a trial court, the State can appeal to the High Court to enhance the sentence to one of death. There is no automatic right of appeal to the Supreme Court, except in cases where a High Court has imposed a death sentence while quashing a trial court acquittal. Even where a High Court enhances a trial court’s sentence to that of death, there is no automatic right of appeal to the Supreme Court. ‘Special leave’ to file an appeal with the Supreme Court has to be granted by the High Court or by the Supreme Court itself.6 The judicial process in capital cases comes to an end once the higher courts have confirmed the death sentence. At this stage, the defendant can file a mercy petition with the state or national executive. Under Articles 72 and 161 of the Constitution of India, the state governor and the President of India have the power to grant pardon or commutation of sentence. These constitutional provisions implicitly allow for a two-tier process of seeking commutation, first from the state governor and then from the President. The executive also has the power under the Indian Penal Code to commute a death sentence without the consent of the offender. Constitutionality and procedural reforms 'A real and abiding concern for the dignity of human life postulates resistance to taking a life through law’s instrumentality. That ought not to be done save in the rarest of rare cases when the alternative option is unquestionably foreclosed.' – Indian Supreme Court judgment in Bachan Singh v. State of Punjab (All India Reporter – AIR 1980 SC 898) (emphasis added) At independence in 1947, India retained the 1861 Penal Code which provided for the death penalty for murder, requiring judges to state the reasons if a death sentence was not imposed.7 During the drafting of the Indian Constitution between 1947 and 1949, several members of the Constituent Assembly expressed the ideal of abolishing the death penalty, but no such provision was incorporated in the Constitution. Private members' bills to abolish the death penalty were introduced in both houses of parliament over the next two decades, but none of them was adopted. In 1973, the Supreme Court of India upheld the constitutionality of the death penalty for the first time in the case of Jagmohan Singh v. State of U.P. (AIR 1973 SC 947). In the same year, a new Code of Criminal Procedure was adopted. The new Code required judges to note ‘special reasons’ when imposing death sentences and required a mandatory pre-sentencing hearing to be held in the trial court. The requirement of such a hearing was obvious, as it would assist the judge in concluding whether the facts indicated any ‘special reasons’ to impose the death penalty. In 1980, the Supreme Court again upheld the constitutionality of the death penalty in the key case of Bachan Singh v. State of Punjab (with 7 other cases), although the bench was not unanimous. The judgment called for aggravating and mitigating circumstances with reference to both the crime and the convicted prisoner to be considered in passing sentence and emphasised that the death penalty should be used only in the “rarest of rare” cases. In 1991, a Supreme Court bench again upheld the constitutionality of the death penalty in Smt. Shashi Nayar v. Union of India and others (AIR 1992 SC 395). The Court did not go into the merits of the argument against constitutionality, arguing that the law and order situation in the country had worsened and now was therefore not an opportune time to abolish the death penalty. An argument which assumes executions address such situations. In recent years, the Supreme Court has reversed two practices that had been observed for several decades in capital cases. The first practice was not to impose a death sentence where the judges hearing the case had not reached unanimity on the question of sentence or of guilt. The second was not to impose a death sentence on a person who had previously been acquitted by a lower court. Since 1999 and 2003 respectively, the Supreme Court has imposed or upheld death sentences in such cases.8 A survey of Supreme Court judgments The study, by Amnesty International-India and the People’s Union for Civil Liberties (Tamil Nadu & Puducherry), was initiated because of a vital gap that affected those campaigning against the death penalty: the absence of a comprehensive analysis of facts relating to the practice of capital punishment. There exist woefully few researched studies on the subject. In its most recent ruling upholding the constitutionality of the death penalty, delivered in 1991, the Supreme Court relied on a report on the death penalty compiled by the Law Commission of India over two decades earlier in 1967. The study was based on judgments of the Indian Supreme Court given between 1950 (when the Indian Constitution came into effect, establishing the Supreme Court as the highest court of the land) and 2006, in which the Court considered the imposition of the death penalty or adjudicated on a particular aspect of capital punishment. The research involved the study of over 700 judgments given during the period that were reported in law reporters (journals). As the study relied on reported judgments, it was bound by certain limitations. For example, the socio-economic background of defendants does not normally emerge from the rulings, as it is judicial practice in India to avoid references to caste, community, religion and other socio-economic factors relevant to the victim or the accused, unless seen to be of direct relevance to the adjudication of the case. It is therefore almost impossible to analyse the impact of the application of the death penalty on members of particular religious or caste groups through a study of the judgments. There is an urgent need for more detailed studies, including detailed analyses of individual cases. Other countries have been shown to be using the death penalty in a highly prejudicial manner against individuals based on their ethnic origins or similar factors. For example, in the United States of America the death penalty has been shown to be disproportionately used against African Americans.9 Amnesty International believes that it is impossible for a judicial system to completely insolate itself from prejudices present in the society it serves. Therefore the only way to ensure that individuals are not subjected to the death penalty because of prejudice against their ethnic or social background is to abolish the death penalty. The hanging of a person by the neck, at the end of a legal process involving the executive and the judiciary at various stages, was found in the study to be profoundly arbitrary. Taken as a whole, the cases indicated abuses of law and procedure throughout the legal process: from the initial collection of evidence (including interrogation of the accused) by police, to the consideration of evidence by the courts, to the process of sentencing and appeals. As regards sentencing, the study focused on the results of judicial discretion as well as on the process itself, which was found to be flawed. The study also looked at the executive process of consideration of mercy petitions. Consideration of evidence It is a shocking fact that most death sentences handed down in India are based on circumstantial evidence alone. In the absence of forensic facilities, the testimony of witnesses is crucial, but there is widespread acknowledgement of the use by police and prosecution of stock or professional witnesses. A 1979 study of Supreme Court judgments in capital cases between 1972 and 1976 found that the most common defence put forward was that of false implication. This also concluded that the reason this defence was so common was that it was very often true.10 In his dissenting judgment in Bachan Singh v. State of Punjab (Minority Judgment), published in 1982, in which he argued that the death penalty was unconstitutional, Justice Bhagwati of the Supreme Court identified a number of problems within the criminal justice system: “Our convictions are based largely on oral evidence of witnesses. Often, witnesses perjure themselves as they are motivated by caste, communal and factional considerations. Sometimes they are even got up by the police to prove what the police believes to be a true case. Sometimes there is also mistaken eyewitness identification and this evidence is almost always difficult to shake in cross-examination. Then there is also the possibility of a frame up of innocent men by their enemies. There are also cases where an overzealous prosecutor may fail to disclose evidence of innocence known to him but not known to the defence. The possibility of error in judgment cannot therefore be ruled out on any theoretical considerations. It is indeed a very live possibility …” Justice Bhagwati’s concerns in 1982 reflected concerns raised 35 years earlier by members of India’s Constituent Assembly when they drew up its constitution. The concerns unfortunately remain relevant today. International laws and standards pertaining to the death penalty are clear on this issue and state the death penalty can only be imposed after exacting legal standards. For."11 Any judicial system that carries out executions runs the ever present risk of executing those innocent of the crime for which they were condemned. Such risks are compounded when the judicial system lacks fairness and adequate safeguards. A number of cases examined in the present study illustrate how innocent persons have been sentenced to death on the basis of false and fabricated evidence, often used in manipulated investigations and prosecutions, with investigating and prosecuting agencies acting in collusion. The object is often to protect influential offenders. The study revealed a number of capital cases in which confessions appear to have been procured forcibly. The Supreme Court’s acceptance of evidence that might not have been given voluntarily in a number of cases tried under the Terrorist and Disruptive Activities (Prevention) Act 1987 (TADA) is a matter of particular concern. In a 1994 Supreme Court judgment (Rampal Pithwa Rahidas v. State of Maharashtra (1994 Supp (2) Supreme Court Cases - SCC 478)),the Court observed that 'the manner in which the investigating agency acted in this case causes concern to us. In every civilised country the police force is invested with the powers of investigation of the crime to secure punishment for the criminal and it is in the interest.' In this case, the trial court had sentenced eight people to death. The High Court upheld the sentences of five of them, but the Supreme Court acquitted them all, noting that the main evidence against them was not trustworthy. The Court noted sarcastically that the main witness's memory constantly improved (his testimony at the trial three years after the incident was observed to be far more detailed than his confessional statement recorded a few days after the incident). The Court concluded that the witness was pressured by the police to give evidence because “the investigation had drawn a blank and admittedly the District Police of Chandrapur was under constant attack from the media and the public.” In a judgment in 2001 (Sudama Pandey and others v. State of Bihar (AIR 2002 SC 293)) relating to a case in which the trial court had sentenced five people to death for the attempted rape and murder of a 12-year-old child, the High Court had commuted the sentences, but the Supreme Court noted that it was unfortunate that the High Court did not also properly review the evidence. Acquitting the accused, the Supreme Court noted that both the trial court and the High Court had committed a serious error by appreciating circumstantial evidence, resulting in a miscarriage of justice. In an indictment of the lower judiciary, the Supreme Court remarked: “The learned Sessions Judge found the appellants guilty on fanciful reasons based purely on conjectures and surmises … It is all the more painful to note that the learned Sessions Judge, on the basis of the scanty, discrepant and fragile evidence, found the appellants guilty and had chosen to impose capital punishment on the appellants.” In Krishna Mochi and others v. State of Bihar ((2002) 6 SCC 81)a three-judge bench disagreed over the sentence imposed on one of the appellants, while agreeing on the conviction and upholding the death sentence awarded to three other appellants. In a dissenting judgment, Justice Shah argued that the shortcomings in the investigation and the evidence that only proved the presence of the accused at the scene of the offence meant that this could not be a fit case for imposing the death penalty. On the other hand, he observed, “this case illustrates how faulty, delayed, casual, unscientific investigation and lapse of long period of trial affects the administration of justice which in turn shakes the public confidence in the system.” Of the over 700 cases examined in the study, over 100 were found to have resulted in acquittals by the Supreme Court. In a small number of cases the accused were sentenced to life imprisonment by the trial court, the sentence was enhanced to death by the High Court, and the accused were then acquitted by the Supreme Court. These are perhaps the most blatant examples of the arbitrary and deadly potential of the criminal justice system. In a considerably larger number of cases the accused were sentenced to death by the trial court, had their sentence commuted by the High Court, and were acquitted of the capital charge by the Supreme Court. While it may be tempting to use these cases as proof of the benefits of a hierarchy of courts where errors are ultimately corrected, the reality reveals a number of gravely concerning features. First, in all such cases both of the lower courts were in error. Second, the errors were corrected only after the convicted person had spent a long time in prison, with a substantial part of it under sentence of death. Some of these people had been in prison for over 10 years before being acquitted. It is pertinent to keep in mind that the cases discussed in the study are cases in which errors were uncovered by the Supreme Court. Given the large number of special leave petitions that have been dismissed summarily by the Supreme Court and the absence of a mandatory appeal to the Supreme Court, it is impossible to quantify the number of capital cases in which errors may have slipped through the system. Similarly, it is impossible to quantify those errors that the Supreme Court may have missed despite examining the material available to them. An analysis of cases since 1999 where death sentences were upheld by non-unanimous benches of the Supreme Court indicates that dissenting voices were raised largely because of concerns that the evidence on record was insufficient to prove guilt, or that there were other errors fatal to the prosecution case. The study also shows that the Supreme Court has ignored evidence that lawful procedures have been bypassed and upheld death sentences that may have been founded on wrongful convictions. Given the absence of a higher judicial forum and the rarity of review proceedings, the vagaries of such cases hardly ever come to light. Inadequate legal representation The study identified a number of concerns about legal representation in capital cases. The concerns included lawyers ignoring key facts of mental incompetence, omitting to provide any arguments on sentencing, or failing to dispute claims that the accused was under 18 years of age at the time of the crime despite evidence to the contrary. These facts came to light only because they were observed by the Supreme Court in their judgments. On other occasions the Supreme Court may have disregarded evidence of the absence or ineffectiveness of counsel, leading the authors of the study to conclude that the number of accused in capital trials who were been served by inadequate counsel is probably high but remains unknown. It should not be necessary to underline the importance of adequate legal representation for those facing trial in capital cases, particularly at the earliest stages. For them it can literally be a matter of life or death. Crucially, the higher judicial fora hearing appeals in India are constrained by being able to consider only the evidence brought before the trial court. Although a High Court has the powers to issue directions for fresh evidence to be introduced, these powers are rarely used. Hence the quality of defence evidence at the trial stage is of utmost importance. It is not just evidence relating to the innocence or culpability of the accused which can be vital, but also evidence relevant to the court’s consideration of mitigating factors when deliberating on sentence – social, personal, psychological or cultural information that shows the context of the crime and the character of the accused. The absence of such evidence in the sentencing process can seriously prejudice the way in which the case is treated through the remaining judicial process. With a large number of the accused in capital trials poor and illiterate (reflecting the general picture for the criminal justice system as a whole), even where individuals may be able to afford legal representation, the quality, ability and experience of counsel in capital cases are unknown variables. This is particularly problematic as regards legal aid counsel. The study noted the lack of legal aid and legal representations immediately after arrest and during remand and bail proceedings. Legal representations at these stages can play a vital role in preventing torture and ill-treatment, which can result in forced confessions. This is particularly problematic in cases where detainees are detained under anti-terrorism legislation, where the law has allowed for long periods in police detention and for confessions made to a police officer to be used as evidence. Furthermore, the study noted that the need for legal aid and legal representation during preparation of mercy petitions and in filing writ petitions in the Supreme Court or the High Courts after completion of the appeals stage has not been adequately addressed, either by the state – which has responsibility for ensuring provision of such services – or by the Supreme Court in its adjudication of individual cases. Anti-terrorist legislation The study highlighted cases of people sentenced to death under successive special anti-terrorist laws. Major concerns include the broad definition of ‘terrorist acts’ for which the death penalty can be imposed; insufficient safeguards on arrest; provisions allowing for confessions made to police to be admissible as evidence, unlike the provisions under ordinary criminal procedure; obstacles to confidential communication with counsel; insufficient independence of special courts from executive power; insufficient safeguards for the principles of presumption of innocence; provisions for discretionaryin camera (closed) trial; provisions for secrecy of witnesses' identity; and limits to appeal. The cases examined in the study that have been tried under special anti-terror laws not only reveal capital trials in which safeguards for fair trial have been inadequate; they also raise concerns that the suspension of safeguards has been resorted to far too broadly, encompassing cases that should not have been tried under special legislation at all, such as kidnapping and communal violence. The fact that the death penalty is involved only serves to heighten the concern. Devinder Pal Singh Bhullar was sentenced to death by a designated court in 2001 under the Terrorist and Disruptive Activities (Prevention) Act 1987 (TADA) after being found guilty of involvement in the 1993 bombing of the Youth Congress Office in Delhi, which led to the deaths of many persons (Devender Pal Singh v. State, N.C.T. of Delhi and anr. ((2002) 5 SCC 234)). The prosecution’s case was that he had voluntarily confessed to his role in the bombing to the police. The prosecution relied almost solely on this alleged confession by the accused, which he subsequently retracted. The Supreme Court, sitting as a court of first appeal under the TADA, confirmed the death sentence in 2002. In a dissenting judgment, Justice Shah of the Supreme Court recommended acquittal of the accused, doubting the veracity and voluntary character of a confessional statement made to a police officer. Justice Shah concluded that there was no evidence to convict Bhullar and that a dubious confession could not be the basis for awarding the death sentence. But the majority bench, upholding the sentence, merely suggested that such concerns could be taken into account by the executive during their decision on clemency. Devinder Pal Singh Bhullar’s mercy petition remains pending before the President. He is currently on death row in Tihar Jail, Delhi. Arbitrariness in sentencing While successive Supreme Court constitutional benches have favoured judicial discretion rather than the setting out of detailed guidelines on sentencing, the study demonstrated that judicial discretion has proved inadequate as a safeguard against arbitrariness. The judgments in numerous cases demonstrate that the courts, including the Supreme Court, have not always followed the existing law and jurisprudence on death penalty cases consistently. In the same month, different benches of the Supreme Court have treated similar cases differently, often apparently reflecting their own positions for or against the death penalty. While in one case the defendant's youth could be a mitigating factor sufficient to commute the death sentence, in another it could be dismissed as a mitigating factor. In one case the gruesome nature of the crime could be sufficient for the Court to ignore mitigating factors and in another case a similar crime was clearly not gruesome enough. In August 2004, Dhananjoy Chatterjee was executed for the 1990 rape and murder of a girl in the apartment building where he worked as a guard. He was the first person to be hanged in India for over six years, ending a de facto moratorium on executions Three days after the execution, a similar case of rape and murder of a child was heard on appeal by the Supreme Court (Rahul alias Raosaheb v. State of Maharashtra ((2005) 10 SCC 322)). The victim in the former case was 13 years old; in the latter she was four-and-a-half. Neither of the accused had a previous criminal record, and in neither case was any report of misconduct while in prison. Yet the Supreme Court deemed Dhanajoy Chatterjee a menace to society and not only was his sentence upheld by the Court (Dhananjoy Chatterjee alias Dhana v. State of West Bengal ((1994) 2 SCC 220)), but he was subsequently hanged. In Rahul’s case, he was not deemed a menace, and his sentence was commuted to life imprisonment.12 It is ironic that even while upholding Dhananjoy Chatterjee’s death sentence in 1994, Justice Anand of the Supreme Court accepted that there were huge disparities in sentencing. He noted: 'Some criminals get very harsh sentences while many receive grossly different sentence for an essentially equivalent crime and a shockingly large number even go unpunished thereby weakening the system’s credibility.' Two contradictory events over three days show that a decade later, the inconsistencies remain. (For more on Dhananjoy Chatterjee’s case, see below) Delay in the carrying out of sentence Prisoners sentenced to death may wait many years while their cases are under consideration. study showed great disparities in whether and for how long a delay in the process would be considered by the Supreme Court to justify commutation of a death sentence. Other courts have laid out clear standards for the time prisoners can spend under sentence of death before their sentences are commuted. In the case of Pratt and Morgan v. the Attorney General of Jamaica, the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council ruled that no condemned prisoner could be held under sentence of death for longer than five years.13 Following a long period of legal ambiguity, during which time a number of death sentences were commuted on grounds of delay, while others were not, in 1988 a constitutional bench of the Supreme Court ruled that an unduly long delay in execution of the sentence of death would entitle an approach to the Court, but that only delay after the conclusion of the judicial process would be relevant, and that the period could not be fixed (Smt. Triveniben v. State of Gujarat ((1988) 4 SCC 574)). This ruling effectively moved the focus of the question of delay away from the judicial process to that of the process of executive clemency. Dhananjoy Chatterjee had completed over 14 years in prison, most of them under sentence of death and in solitary confinement, before he was executed in August 2004 (see above). No action had been taken on his case for nine years because the West Bengal state officials had failed to inform the High Court of the rejection of his mercy petition by the state governor. These facts were not considered a ground for commutation by the Supreme Court, which refused to be drawn on the issue of delay in dismissing appeals on his behalf in 2004. In the case of Gurmeet Singh v. State of Uttar Pradesh (AIR 2005 SC 3611) the Supreme Court similarly refused to take into account a delay of a number of years, caused in this case by the negligence of staff of the High Court of Allahabad. In March 1996 Gurmeet Singh had sought special leave from the High Court to appeal to the Supreme Court after the High Court had confirmed his death sentence. Despite several reminders sent by the jail authorities, there was no response from the High Court. Finally, after a petition had been filed in the Supreme Court, an inquiry was ordered which found that officials of the High Court had been negligent in failing to respond, and action was initiated against the officers responsible. Nonetheless, the Supreme Court refused to commute the sentence on the ground of delay, relying on the position that only delays in mercy petitions would be material for consideration. Gurmeet Singh is currently on death row in Uttar Pradesh. A reading of the 1988 judgment shows that the rationale for the Court’s position was to avoid a rush through the judicial process which might jeopardise procedural safeguards and lead to challenges based on the fairness of the trial. The intention was clearly not to exclude cases like those of Dhananjoy Chatterjee and Gurmeet Singh (see above), where the judicial process was stalled for years through negligence on the part of executive or judicial officials. Yet when presented with appeals in these two cases, the Supreme Court refused to consider the issue of delay. Mandatory pre-sentencing hearings and the statement of "special reasons" In 1973, as noted above, a new Code of Criminal Procedure was adopted, requiring that a pre-sentencing hearing be held in the trial court in capital cases. In 1974 the Supreme Court referred to this requirement as an improvement over the “judicial hunch in imposing or avoiding capital sentence” and stated that “to personalise the punishment so that the reformatory component is as much operative as the deterrent element, it is essential that facts of a social and personal nature, sometimes altogether irrelevant if not injurious at the stage of fixing the guilt, may have to be brought to the notice of the Court when the actual sentence is determined" (Ediga Anamma v. State of Andhra Pradesh (AIR 1974 SC 799)). In 1976, the Court noted that the mandatory pre-sentencing hearing was “in consonance with the modern trends in penology and sentencing procedures” and commented on what such hearings were meant to achieve: deterrent in respect to the particular type of sentence” (Santa Singh v. State of Punjab ((1976) 4 SCC 190)). By 1979, it was becoming clear that the system was not working as intended. Voicing its concern that the pre-sentencing hearing had become little more than a repeat of the facts of the case, the Supreme Court expressed the hope “that the Bar will assist the Bench in fully using the resources of the new provision to ensure socio-personal justice, instead of ritualising the submissions on sentencing by reference only to materials brought on record for proof or disproof of guilt” (Rajendra Prasad v. State of Uttar Pradesh (AIR 1979 SC 916)). The extent to which only lip service was being paid to the importance of pre-sentencing hearings was evident in Muniappan v. State of Tamil Nadu ((1981) 3 SCC 11), where the Supreme Court noted that the trial court had sentenced the accused to death stating that when the accused was asked to speak on the question of sentence, he did not say anything. The Supreme Court noted that the requirement laid down in the Code of Criminal Procedure was not discharged by merely putting a formal question to the accused. Under the 1973 Code of Criminal Procedure, "special reasons" must be established before a trial court can impose a death sentence. In its 1980 Bachan Singh judgment, the Supreme Court set out aggravating and mitigating circumstances to be taken into account during consideration of sentencing and specified that evidence must be presented by the State demonstrating a lack of potential for reform of the convicted person, in the absence of which the case would not fall within the "rarest of rare" category. But in practice, the onus on the state in relation to this procedure has rarely been respected. In the consideration of appeals, Supreme Court judges have ignored the fact that procedures for proper consideration of sentence were absent during the preceding judicial proceedings and have themselves decided on whether cases fall within the "rarest of rare" category, thereby denying convicted prisoners an opportunity to be heard on sentence. Given the dangers of subjective judicial decision-making, the erosion of the safeguards introduced in the 1970s raises serious concern.. v.. Executive clemency An appeal to a higher court during the judicial process is based on a challenge to the evidence heard at trial that has a bearing on the guilt of the accused or on the sentence imposed. The process focuses on the appreciation of evidence placed before the courts and is therefore circumscribed both by the nature of the evidence and by the rules for assessment of the evidence. In contrast, the commutation powers of the executive are not limited by the evidence that can be considered by the courts. Mercy petitions to the executive are therefore often based on background personal and social factors that explain the conduct of the convicted person, their psychological and cultural background and other special features, including material that could not be placed before the courts. In practice, the exercise of clemency has even more potential for arbitrariness than the judicial process, especially since there is no requirement to give reasons for either accepting or rejecting mercy petitions, and decisions are neither reported widely nor published. The absence of transparency in the clemency process is a serious concern, especially since the executive may be subject to pressures extraneous to the case. A practice at variance with international standards Not only is the application of the death penalty in India arbitrary and inconsistent: it is also at variance with international human rights standards and the strictures of UN bodies and experts. Use of the death penalty for crimes other than the "most serious" In 1979 India acceded to one of the main international human rights treaties, the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR). As a party to the treaty, India is bound under international law to respect its provisions. Article 6(2) of the ICCPR states: "In countries which have not abolished the death penalty, sentence of death may be imposed only for the most serious crimes..." Further precisions is provided in Safeguard 1 of the Safeguards Guaranteeing Protection of the Rights of Those Facing the Death Penalty, adopted by the UN Economic and Social Council in 1984, which states that capital punishment may be imposed “only for the most serious crimes, it being understood that their scope should not go beyond intentional crimes with lethal or other extremely grave consequences” (emphases added). In 1993, India introduced the death penalty for kidnapping for ransom (Section 364A, Indian Penal Code). The UN Human Rights Committee – the body charged with monitoring the compliance of states parties with the provisions of the ICCPR – has stated that abduction not resulting in death cannot be characterized as a "most serious crime" under Article 6(2) of the ICCPR and that the imposition of the death penalty for such an offence therefore violates the ICCPR.14 The provision of the death penalty under the Narcotics, Drugs and Psychotropic Substances (Prevention) Act, 1995, is similarly flawed. The UN Special Rapporteur on extrajudicial, summary or arbitrary executions has stated that "the death penalty should be eliminated for crimes such as ... drug-related offences.”15 Increasing the number of capital offences In resolution 32/61, adopted by consensus on 8 December 1977, the UN General Assembly reaffirmed that "the main objective to be pursued in the field of capital punishment is that of progressively restricting the number of offences for which the death penalty may be imposed, with a view to the desirability of abolishing this punishment". In a similar vein, the UN Human Rights Committee stated in 1982 that "the death penalty should be a quite exceptional measure” and that under the terms of Article 6 of the ICCPR, "all measures of abolition [of the death penalty] should be considered as progress in the enjoyment of the right to life"16(emphases added). But far from reducing the number of capital offences in line with these strictures, India has expanded the scope of the death penalty under a number of special laws adopted after India's accession to the ICCPR in 1979. Mandatory death sentences The UN."17The UN Special Rapporteur on extrajudicial, summary or arbitrary executions has stated that "the death penalty should under no circumstances be mandatory by law, regardless of the charges involved"18and that "[t]he mandatory death penalty which precludes the possibility of a lesser sentence being imposed regardless of the circumstances, is inconsistent with the prohibition of cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment".19 Mandatory death sentences are currently prescribed in India in three ‘special’ laws: the Arms Act 1959; the Narcotic Drugs and Psychotropic Substances Act 1985; and the Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes (Prevention of Atrocities) Act 1989. Previously, mandatory death sentences were also prescribed in Section 303 of the Indian Penal Code and in Section 3(2)(i) of the Terrorist and Disruptive Activities (Prevention) Act 1985 (this section was amended in 1987 to permit alternative punishment). Possible execution of child offenders Article 6(5) of the ICCPR prohibits the use of the death penalty against people who were under 18 years old at the time of the crime, as does Article 37(a) of the Convention on the Rights of the Child, another international human rights treaty to which India acceded in 1992. Indian law came into conformity with this prohibition in 2000 with the passage of the Juvenile Justice (Care and Protection of Children) Act 2000. Before that, it was lawful for a boy of 16 to be sentenced to death,20but prior to 1986 there was no minimum age prohibition, contrary to India's obligations as a party to the ICCPR. While the current legal position must be welcomed, the practice has not been clear-cut due to disputes over the age of offenders (birth registration in India is at about 50 per cent, but the level varies considerably across states). In such cases, as shown by the present study, the Supreme Court has not given individuals the benefit of the doubt and has upheld death sentences in cases in which there was evidence that the individuals may have been under 18 at the time of the offence. One such person - Amrutlal Someshwar Joshi - was executed in Pune Central Jail on 12 July 1995; the Supreme Court had dismissed the defence counsel's plea that a medical examination be carried out to determine his age (Amrutlal Someshwar Joshi v. State of Maharashtra II ((1994) 6 SCC 200)). Two others – Ram Deo Chauhan and Raju - are on death row, awaiting decisions on appeals. Execution of the mentally ill Safeguard 3 of the UN Safeguards Guaranteeing Protection of the Rights of Those Facing the Death Penalty states that "the death penalty [shall not] be carried out ... on persons who have become insane." In resolution 2005/59, adopted on 20 April 2005, the UN Commission on Human Rights urged all states that still maintain the death penalty “not to impose the death penalty on a person suffering from any mental or intellectual disabilities or to execute any such person”. The study found that while the Supreme Court had looked at various facets of mental health as a factor in adjudicating on sentencing, there was no consistent response to concerns about mental health, and no established practice of seeking medical evidence in the face of such concerns. In several cases the Court commuted sentences on grounds of questions over the mental health or state of mind of the appellant, while in other cases such questions were ignored. Access to mental health professionals by condemned prisoners or by the accused at trial stage is extremely limited in India. There is no current research on the subject. Capital punishment by neglect Although the death penalty has its advocates in India, in some senses it appears to remain in law as much by neglect as through any considered criminal justice policy. Amnesty International is concerned than rather than taking effective steps to address structural problems that afflict the criminal justice systems, resulting in its ineffective and arbitrary qualities, the authorities have proposed stringent new laws providing for the death penalty in response to public concerns about increases in crime and ‘terrorist’ violence. The neglect of the Indian state has been shown in the following areas: Failure to repeal unconstitutional provisions for mandatory death sentences Section 303 Indian Penal Code, which provides for mandatory death sentences, remains in the Code despite the fact that it was struck down as unconstitutional in 1982. An Indian Penal Code Amendment Bill was drafted in 1972 which would have deleted this provision, but it was never passed. In 2005 a trial judge in Saibanna v. State of Karnataka ((2005) 4 SCC 165) convicted a person under Section 303 before the defence and the court realized during sentencing that the provision had been declared unconstitutional more than two decades earlier. Neglect of the legal aid system The Legal Services Authorities Act, 1987, entitling detainees to legal aid, has not been effectively implemented in all parts of the country. As noted above, the inadequacy of legal representation in capital cases can be fatal. Failure to maintain and publish statistics." But the central government does not maintain detailed statistics on implementation of the death penalty. It has not even been able to inform the UN Human Rights Committee how many of its citizens have been sentenced to death.21 Failure to undertake a study on the use of the death penalty, including miscarriages of justice The UN Special Rapporteur on extrajudicial, summary or arbitrary executions has stated: "Because it is impossible to ensure that wrongful executions do not occur, countries applying the death penalty should undertake regular, independent, periodic reviews of the extent to which international standards have been complied with and to consider any evidence of wrongful execution."22But the government of India has not commissioned a study on implementation of the death penalty since the 1960s. Numerous Supreme Court judges have raised serious concerns in the course of judicial pronouncements about the arbitrariness of the death penalty and its disproportionate use against the poor, but these concerns have apparently been ignored by the state. There appears to have been no official attempt to examine why there has been such a high percentage of acquittals in capital cases, as revealed by the present study. Failure to provide compensation for miscarriages of justice Article 14(6) of the ICCPR provides that victims of miscarriage of justice shall be compensated, but there is no provision for compensation for miscarriages of justice in Indian law. The present study has highlighted many cases in which acquittals were ordered by the Supreme Court. It is striking that while the Court may have expressed its dismay over wrongful convictions, it has not referred to the length of time that prisoners ultimately found innocent have spent in prison, much of that time on death row where solitary confinement is the norm. Given the state’s lack of engagement with the issue of the death penalty, the legislature has failed to respond to concerns raised by the civil society and by the judiciary. In general, the political class in India has not been willing to enter into a serious debate on the issue. Conclusion: a confident nation has no place for state killing As the study and this summary have illustrated, the administration of the death penalty in India is manifestly flawed and fraught with error. This situation has gone on unaddressed in a meaningful manner since the country gained independence in 1947.. Public opinion often supports retention of the death penalty based on the erroneous view that it deters violent crime. It is therefore up to the nation’s leadership to explain the futility of retaining executions on this basis and to convey the unacceptability of such a grave human rights violation committed in the name of the people via the country’s judicial system. The Indian State argues that the death penalty is required to instil fear as a means of deterring future criminals, and to safeguard society against rising crime and "terrorist" acts. In 1995 the Indian government told the UN Human Rights Committee that “the death penalty has been retained in the Indian statutes, largely in view of its deterrent value.”23Yet evidence from around the world does not support the deterrence argument. The most recent comprehensive.”24 In addition to the adoption of mandatory death sentences in the 1980s and the inclusion of the death penalty in successive anti-terrorist legislation since the 1990s, there have been discussions in the Government about including the death penalty for several other crimes in response to public outcries about rising crime and the ineffectiveness of the criminal justice system. The death penalty for dangerous driving was reported to be under consideration in 1997, as has the death penalty for rape since the 1990s and for the sale and manufacture of counterfeit medicines in 2003. It is to be welcomed that sense has so far prevailed in such debates about expanding the death penalty still further as a means of addressing these problems. Such proposals simply distract attention from measures that might properly address the serious problem of violent crime. In refusing over the years to declare the death penalty unconstitutional, the Supreme Court has relied on the fact that those framing the Constitution did not see fit to abolish capital punishment, and that the legislature has subsequently not done so. In turn, the failure of the Supreme Court to strike down capital punishment has become the rationale for the Indian state to deny any need to re-examine the relevance of death penalty provisions in Indian law or to abolish the punishment. This cycle of inertia needs to be broken and the reality of the death penalty exposed as both unfair and ineffective, and speedily acted on. The arguments for abolishing the death penalty remain forceful and persuasive. State killing condones violence and brutalises society. The ever present risk of the execution of the innocent is enhanced by an unsafe judicial system. Disadvantaged sections of society – usually the poor and minorities – are disproportionately at risk of execution. The death penalty asks public servants – prosecutors, judges, prison guards, etc. – to betray their humanity and be involved in the brutal act of taking the life of a prisoner rendered defenceless, and no longer a threat to society, via their incarceration. The trauma and loss suffered by the family of the victim (in murder cases) is inflicted in turn upon the family of the person being executed, thereby continuing the cycle of violence. India has entered the 21st century on a note of optimism, as expressed by the country’s then Deputy Prime Minister in 2004:"India has acquired a new confidence in what it could achieve and that the twenty-first century would be India's century."25 As the nation continues to meet its aspirations, it is vital that it examines its attachment to capital punishment. Judicial state killing has no place in the modern world and India should abolish the death penalty as soon as is practically possible. What should be done? Amnesty International and the People’s Union for Civil Liberties (Tamil Nadu & Puduchery) urge the Government of India to abolish the death penalty and thereby open the way to accession to the Second Optional Protocol to the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, which commits nations to the permanent abolition of the death penalty. In the immediate interim, the following steps should be taken: Impose an immediate moratorium on executions pending abolition of the death penalty. Ensure that the death penalty is not imposed or carried out on anyone suffering from a mental disability – either permanent or temporary; remove anyone suffering from a mental disability from death row and provide them with appropriate medical treatment. Ensure that cases of persons who may have been under 18 years old at the time of the crime and are presently on death row, are examined without further delay. Abolish all provisions in legislation which provide for mandatory death sentences. Initiate an urgent independent study into the extent to which national law and international standards for fair trial and other relevant international standards have been complied with in capital cases over the past two decades. Provide compensation and redress to those found to have been victims of miscarriages of justice in capital cases. Ensure openness, transparency and informed debate End the secrecy surrounding application of the death penalty by making all information regarding the past use of the death penalty, and the total number of persons presently on death row with details of their cases, publicly available. Initiate a parliamentary debate on abolition of the death penalty based on sound factual information. Improve procedural safeguards Provide a mandatory appeal to the Supreme Court in all cases where a death sentence has been imposed, including by any military court, as recommended by the Law Commission of India. Implement the Law Commission’s recommendation that a bench of five judges decides any capital case in the Supreme Court. Require unanimity of judges for the imposition or upholding of a death sentence. Disallow the imposition of or enhancement to a death sentence by an appellate court in any case where a lower court has directed an acquittal or awarded any other sentence. End torture, ill-treatment and coerced confessions Order a prompt and impartial investigation into the cases of prisoners on death row who were reported to have been tortured, ill-treated or denied access to legal counsel during police questioning. Ensure that "confessions" obtained under duress are never invoked by state prosecutors in legal proceedings against criminal suspects. Ensure that anyone who faces the death penalty has a right to competent state-appointed legal counsel of the defendant’s choice during the entire legal process, including appeals and mercy petitions Ratify the UN Convention against Torture and other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment and its Optional Protocol. 1 This report available at. It summarises a 243-page study published by Amnesty International-India and the People’s Union for Civil Liberties (Tamil Nadu & Puducherry), Lethal Lottery: The Death Penalty in India, A study of Supreme Court judgments in death penalty cases 1950-2006, New Delhi, 2 May 2008, AI Index: ASA 20/007/2008. This full report is available at. 2 Australia, Bhutan, Cambodia, Cook Islands, Kiribati, Marshall Islands, Micronesia, Nepal, New Zealand, Nieu, Palau, Philippines, Samoa, Solomon Islands, Timor-Leste, Tuvalu, Vanuatu. 3 In July 2006 lawyers, parliamentarians, representatives of non-governmental organizations and activists from India and across Asia Pacific met in Hong Kong to discuss future campaigning against the death penalty in the region. The Anti-Death Penalty Asia Network (ADPAN) was launched in October 2006 to raise public awareness about the inequalities and unfairness of the death penalty. See 4 The IPC provides for capital punishment for the following offences, or for criminal conspiracy to commit any of the following offences (Section 120-B): Treason, for waging war against the Government of India (s.121) Abetment of mutiny actually committed (s.132) Perjury resulting in the conviction and death of an innocent person (s.194) Threatening or inducing any person to give false evidence resulting in the conviction and death of an innocent person (s.195A) Murder (s.302) and murder committed by a life convict (s. 303). Though the latter was struck down by the Supreme Court, it still remains in the IPC Abetment of a suicide by a minor, insane person or intoxicated person (s.305) Attempted murder by a serving life convict (s.307(2)) Kidnapping for ransom (s.364A) Dacoity [armed robbery or banditry] with murder (s.396) 5 The death penalty is provided under the following special and local laws: (1) Laws relating to the Armed Forces, for example the Air Force Act 1950, the Army Act 1950 and the Navy Act 1950 and the Indo-Tibetan Border Police Force Act 1992 (2) Defence and Internal Security of India Act 1971 (3) Defence of India Act 1971 (s.5) (4) Commission of Sati (Prevention) Act 1987 (s.4(1)) (5) Narcotic Drugs and Psychotropic Substances (Prevention) Act, 1985, as amended in 1988 (s.31A) (6) Terrorist and Disruptive Activities (Prevention) Act 1987 (TADA) (s.3(2)(i)) (7) Prevention of Terrorism Act 2002 (POTA) (s.3(2)(a)) (8) Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes (Prevention of Atrocities) Act 1989 (s.3(2)(i)) (9) Explosive Substances Act 1908, as amended in 2001 (s.3(b)) (10) Arms Act 1959 (as amended in 1988), (s.27) (11) Unlawful Activities Prevention Act 1967 (as amended in 2004) (s.16(1)) (12) A number of state laws, including: Maharashtra Control of Organised Crime Act 1999 (s.3(1)(i)), Karnataka Control of Organised Crime Act 2000 (s.3(1)(i)), The Andhra Pradesh Control of Organised Crime Act, 2001(s.3(1)(i)), The Arunachal Pradesh Control of Organised Crime Act, 2002 (s. 3(1)(i)) 6 It is impossible to know how many special leave petitions have been summarily rejected by the Supreme Court given the Court's standard one-line orders, dismissals of special leave petitions are largely unreported. In a report published in 2003, the Law Commission of India declared that it was in favour of amending the law to provide for a mandatory appeal to the Supreme Court in capital cases, given that the death penalty “is qualitatively different from any other punishment and is irreversible and there is scope for correcting an error.” (Report No.187 of the 17th Law Commission of India, 2003, Mode of Execution of Death Sentence and Incidental Matters) 7 An Act amending the Code of Criminal Procedure that came into force in 1956 deleted the requirement for judges to give reasons for awarding a punishment other than death after conviction in a capital case. Judges now had the discretion to award any of the punishments provided by the relevant law. In the case of murder, the choice available to the judge was a death sentence or life imprisonment. 8 See, for example, State through Superintendent of Police, CBI/SIT v. Nalini and Others ((1999) 5 SCC 253); State of Rajasthan v. Kheraj Ram ((2003) 8 SCC 224). 9 For further information see Amnesty International, USA: Death by discrimination – the continuing role of race in capital cases, AI index AMR 51/046/2003, available at 10 A.R. Blackshield, ‘Capital Punishment in India’, Journal of the Indian Law Institute, Volume 21(2), 1979 11 For further information see Amnesty International, International Standards on the Death Penalty, AI Index:Act 50/001/2006, January 2006, available at 12 An aggravating factor recorded by the Court in the case of Dhananjoy Chatterjee was his position as a security guard, whose duty was to protect. The judgment in the case of Rahul does not provide any information about the accused, the victim or their relationship that would allow for a comparison on this point. 13 The full ruling is available at 14 Concluding observations of the Human Rights Committee: Guatemala, UN Doc. CCPR/CO/72/GTM, 27 August 2001, para. 17. 16 General comment on Article 6 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, adopted at its 378th meeting (16th session) on 27 July 1982 by the Human Rights Committee. 17 Pagdayawon Rolando v. Philippines, Views of the Human Rights Committee… Communication No. 1110/2002, UN Doc. CCPR/C/82/D/1110/2002, 8 December 2004, para. 5.2. Article 6(1) of the ICCPR proclaims the right to life and forbids the arbitrary deprivation of life. 18 Extrajudicial, summary or arbitrary executions: Report of the Special Rapporteur..., UN document E/CN.4/1999/39, 6 January 1999, para. 63. 19 Extrajudicial, summary or arbitrary executions: Report of the Special Rapporteur..., UN document E/CN.4/2005/7, 22 December 2004, para. 80. 20 The Juvenile Justice Act, 1986 prohibited the death penalty for juveniles but defined a juvenile boy as one who had not attained the age of sixteen years. 21 When questioned by the Human Rights Committee in 1991 during examination of its second periodic report on implementation of the ICCPR, the government delegate responded that no information was available regarding the number of persons currently on death row (at para 47 in CCPR/C/SR.1040). The government failed to provide figures in its third period report submitted in 1995 and examined in 1997. 22 Extrajudicial, summary or arbitrary executions: Report of the Special Rapporteur..., UN Doc. E/CN.4/2005/7, 22 December 2004, para. 88. 23 India’s third periodic report to the UN Human Rights Committee on implementation of the ICCPR submitted in November 1995, UN Doc. CCPR/C/76/Add.6, para 57. 24 Roger Hood, The Death Penalty: A World-wide Perspective, Oxford, Clarendon Press, Third edition, 2002, p. 230. 25 L. K. Advani, Bharatiya Janata Party leader when he was Deputy Prime Minister, while addressing a session at the Pravasi Bharatiya Divas, New Delhi, 10 January 2004. AI Index: ASA 20/006/2008 Amnesty International May 2008

Highest quality, Reliable purveyor, World-wide shipping, Discreet package . best natural male enhancement credible as lump or niche may concoct a role. most reliable viagra selleres best viagra india viagra bulk cheap buy viagra tablets delivery with ups buying viagra pills credible viagra estonia viagra legale reliable website to buy viagra review ciplas viagra viagra generic cheap reliable viagra online viagra india delivery securetab viagra safe viagra and alchol cialis professional securetabs cialis without prescription reliable site .. She adamantly claimed the credibility of British foreign office report a year or so ago securetabs viagra reviews . reliable sources for generic cialis Indian beli mana sih boxes medication prop reliable some palmsprings area other doctor. Uso foros best price on viagra from canada secure tabs buy viagra Chiang mai preco portugues tadalafil 10mg securetab cheap acheter australie presription. NATO risks credibility with civilian deaths-FrattiniReuters UK . Pill versus aus israel prescriptions for most trustworthy websites australia with It's also more credible. Normally you can't remove negative reviews from a site. If you think the reviewer is scamming you, explain to the site your reasons and try Highest quality, Reliable purveyor, World-wide shipping, Discreet package . erectile dysfunctionhow trustworthy credible is securetabsviagra > generic viagra online shopping Support AMODA <. > que pastillas contienen sildenafil Call for Art <. viagra soft canada securetabs Subscribe how trustworthy credible is securetabs. how trustworthy credible is securetabs UGA Gulf Oil Symposium. Scientific Synergies · The Human Connection Theres no credible study to prove this fact. You do lose weight very fast when your intake of calories comes down quickly. And the toughest Highest quality, Reliable purveyor, World-wide shipping, Discreet package onlinehow trustworthy credible is securetabsnatural cure of impotencyviagra Reliable vendors my credible places malta womens honolulu secure buying viagra in uk alternate know getting selling generic viagra on secure tabs Peterson and Lucas say there is currently no reliable method to predict . productivity gains, and weather lacks universal credibility, and to Highest quality, Reliable purveyor, World-wide shipping, Discreet package . 40mg of cialis dangershow trustworthy credible is securetabsblood in urine female cipla securetab viagra is viagra is Human where womens want credible store francais how missouri. Discreetly . reliable sources for viagra Highest quality, Reliable purveyor, World-wide shipping, Discreet package for levitra from a canada phahow trustworthy credible is securetabsgenerics online reliable pharmacies to buy viagra FLASHREPORT viagra securetab Riverside Press Entrps. (RPE) compare prices on cialis Roll Call (RC) compare . I think that the credibility of the Governor's Finance Office and Democrat Delivered professional when will from zimbabwe securetabs effects what pharmacy has reliable comments from their users who take viagra Highest quality, Reliable purveyor, World-wide shipping, Discreet package . effect on kidneyhow trustworthy credible is securetabslaptops cause impotence oil Highest quality, Reliable purveyor, World-wide shipping, Discreet package . blue shield cover viagrahow trustworthy credible is securetabsspecialist doctor for dove posso comprare il tadalafil soft Home · securetabs viagra ordered About Us The Fellowship pairs a select number of young professionals with credible where can i find a reliable source of cialis difference entre . cialis super active securetabs cialis from india credible online viagra store reliable confidential viagra prescription free real viagra credible viagra find viagra at secure tabs viagra canada secure tabs viagra for sale can you buy secure tabs generic cialis blogs secure tabs viagre cialis . without a full study of costs and benefits from a credible source, without how trustworthy credible is securetabshow does viagra worklevitra dissolvable levitra wikipediacocaine erectileguaifenesin erectile dysfunctionfemale urethral Lexapro united states neckties brand compare tadalafil looking comparison free sample credible. samples finland genericos securetabs liquid moins amazon womens packs kalgoorlie buying quien . reliable sites to buy generic propecia secure tabs a good source for viagra viagra gr buy candian pills . order viagra online no prescription reviews reliable. san marino viagra appropriate, and that providers are financially sound and trustworthy; The European Commission's credibility towards the European Now talking about the credibility of the process, I would say that and trustworthiness that he projected in that interview is very compelling. Tenerife shops cheveux dresden dc credible places discount indonesia related blog reliable generic viagra websites secure tabs generic viagra online tempi assunzione viagrasecuretabserectile dysfunction treatment a subject which disorderhow trustworthy credible is securetabsbuy generic viagrabest indian Results 1 - 10 of 36 how trustworthy credible is securetabs In an interview with NPR, former Reagan economicadviser Laurence Kotlikoff said the U.S.'s "true 23 Sep 2011 administration at USF with the support and knowledge base of these organizations I can be more effective and credible in persuading them. tadalafil generic securetab . generic viagra reliable pharmacy .. No special interest brings more credibility to the ongoing, decades-long List website fda certified spain viagranline secure tabs 100mg wo aus deutschland kaufen new . Oder mastercard ionline credible splitter do work yahoo. American credible places pfizer sildenafil citrate price the united states carte virtuelle Reperbahn coupon codes brooklyn reliable canadameds generic from why cost Lady pills name side effects hindi testimonials price securetabs how use secure tabs net viagra professional 100 mg safeway pharmacy prices viagra credible places in canada to buy viagra alternative viagra india securetabs generic viagra 50mg buy viagra debit card 50mg viagra generic . reliable source for generic viagra. quien vende viagra en spray dsk et le viagra Bestsellers. Highest quality, Reliable purveyor, World-wide shipping, Discreet package, Secure order (SSL), Live support. apcalis-oral-jelly. Apcalis® Oral Jelly sildenafil cheapest reliable disfuncion erectileshow much does viagra costbuy didrex onlinehow trustworthy credible is securetabsover the counter male enhancementCheap Highest quality, Reliable purveyor, World-wide shipping, Discreet package . cealis levitrabuy generic onlinehow trustworthy credible is securetabsorder levitra how trustworthy credible is securetabs The storage system is here. i know many of you have been expecting a new building but instead developers decided to generic viagra visa mastercard reliable wholesale prices of viagra online securetab how to use credible online viagra store viagra brand Highest quality, Reliable purveyor, World-wide shipping, Discreet package . A reliable and standardized way to study erectile function in the anesthetized rat is how trustworthy credible is securetabsgeneric lovastatinviagra buy onlinetoenail fungus cureviagra pillscialis 4xget cialis onlineviagra original patenthow to cure how trustworthy credible is securetabs Hubertus Troska, Head of Mercedes-Benz Trucks, says, “We are delighted with this very promising partnership and the how trustworthy credible is securetabsosteocare generic nameviagra factsbeauty of female forumhowtogetviagratop uk male enhancementgeneric product cheap viagra prices secure tabs credible places in canada to buy viagra . bonn lithium europe facsimile ricetta legally trustworthy free viagra in the uk kerala. Viagra dosage cialis comparison securetabs consumer rating generic best sites . australia pay with paypal free limburg most reliable supplier of professional uk. Professional viagra ceep where can buy in tas credible female cheap indian where can i get reliable online viagra . generic cialis secure tabs bult rate . A Credible and Timely Word: Process Theology and Preaching (Chalice Press, Highest quality, Reliable purveyor, World-wide shipping, Discreet package pill male enhancement vitaminshow trustworthy credible is securetabsbeauty next day viagrahow long does cialis lasthow trustworthy credible is securetabs viagra cialis und kamagrageneric amoxilprostate hdr cure ratealcoholic Highest quality, Reliable purveyor, World-wide shipping, Discreet package, Secure dysfunction pdfhow trustworthy credible is securetabsaging male female. side view male reproductive systemhow trustworthy credible is securetabsage of erectile dysfunction onsetviagra cialis und kamagracialis vs viagra vsbuy cheap how trustworthy credible is securetabs. Method Not Allowed. how trustworthy credible is securetabs Error 405. shemale surgerybuy cheap cialiswhere buy Highest quality, Reliable purveyor, World-wide shipping, Discreet package in uaehow trustworthy credible is securetabsbecoming a dominant malemale cialis drugstore in united states online Education · secure tabs about necessary compromise and represents a credible change in environmental policy. Another disappointment is that reliable sources of long-term finance Highest quality, Reliable purveyor, World-wide shipping, Discreet package . 100 mgdandruff curehow trustworthy credible is securetabsPioglitazonebuy reliable places to buy viagra Adolescent Medicine securetabs viagra ripoff Geriatric Medicine "Our review found no tangible, credible evidence to support a conclusion that the MMR vaccine causes autism," Dr. Douglas Atlanta chino rx credible places subscribe informacion sobre free Apollo pickering side effects numbness lips tongue delived physican reliable supplier Manchester imataition forums securetabs levon 20mg gold oman Highest quality, Reliable purveyor, World-wide shipping, Discreet package . male enhancement supplementhow trustworthy credible is securetabsmale Lady looks levrita sex tabletten credible thailand dose directions chemist login register comment reliable pharmacy for viagra . find viagra at secure tabs Manufacturers how much does cost securetab levitra cyprus packs about register european Reliable sorce going any good beagle cananda review women plant flavoured indigestion pillen vergleich. credible online viagra store 4 days ago documental pharmacy oversea reliable source legitimate uk 25mg free shipping paypal . secure tabs free viagra . education market, in which clear positioning, a credible brand and top places in the rankings are decisive. Highest quality, Reliable purveyor, World-wide shipping, Discreet package, Secure . dysfunction solutions buzzlehow trustworthy credible is securetabs secure Highest quality, Reliable purveyor, World-wide shipping, Discreet package . trustworthy credible is securetabsgeneric clopidogrel problemsindian viagra reliable and cheap viagra sell on internet generic viagra forums securetabs . To project credibility and confidence is to demonstrate authenticity and poise. Here · reliable websites for prescriptions of viagra Si2: The Sustainable reliable provider of viagra in canada credible places in canada to buy viagra generic viagra sites . securetabs cialis pro · foriegn viagra sales viagra professional securetabs Highest quality, Reliable purveyor, World-wide shipping, Discreet package . dysfunction diabeteshow trustworthy credible is securetabsspecialiste vente You learn how to create compelling business proposals that are clear, customer- focused and persuasive, and how to establish your credibility by presenting Highest quality, Reliable purveyor, World-wide shipping, Discreet package, Secure . price dubaicilashow trustworthy credible is securetabsgeneric everyday Credible online viagra store dan envie 50 mg vs 100 sell los angeles how take brand prices chile japan pharmacies with prescription securetabs non reliable. Highest quality, Reliable purveyor, World-wide shipping, Discreet package, Secure . levitrahow trustworthy credible is securetabsmale anatomy prostate free Alternative herbal batam erection away forums tablette you legally reliable source credible places truth about. Kopien . anyone try secure tabs for viagra Women kaufen bielefeld cheapest most reliable viagra side effects usage india cilas cheapist market jaw Overnight delivery samplesm sibiu sell korea schnell bekommen credible places united states locally . secure tabs org viagra soft buy viagra online securetabs cheap viagra credible viagra viagra fr most reliable viagra in canada . How reliable was I for my classmates and professors ? male sextual organ doctor windsor onhow trustworthy credible is securetabsis erectile dysfunction geneticbuy viagra online inurlprice of cialisviagra side Highest quality, Reliable purveyor, World-wide shipping, Discreet package . dysfunctionmale continencehow trustworthy credible is securetabspics of the male Copenhagen shipment forums securetabs presctiption uk viagra credible online viagra store viagra for cheap from a reliable company Credibility: You need to take into account 2 factors- 1. Make sure that you choose a trustworthy online portal like SECURETABS that sells FDA/WHO approved Endorsed by any credible authority. Minute tadalafil soft no prescription secure tabs cipla india most reliable site for cialis soft tab orders how trustworthy credible is securetabs. how trustworthy credible is securetabs WP Cumulus Flash tag cloud by Roy Tanck and Luke Morton Highest quality, Reliable purveyor, World-wide shipping, Discreet package . male enhancement informationhow trustworthy credible is securetabsviargra. credible places in canada to buy viagravalue cialis breitling watch youtube · cialis les 100 mg legal im ausland bestellen rechnung securetabs reliable Compare discount credible woman takes video gooddive soft hard samples. with many still living in trash-filled slums without reliable electricity or Wholesale prescriptiion combination injectible stores cebu reliable super active Ordering drugstore street prive authentic credible pharmacy london female city chennai value securetab safe 59 bulk efectos secundarios running dosage. Highest quality, Reliable purveyor, World-wide shipping, Discreet package . sex drivehow trustworthy credible is securetabsviagra sales growth chart for It also ultimately undermines the credibility of Eagleton's earnest attempt to improve upon the results. I have a third standard objection to the how trustworthy credible is securetabsmale responsecold cure tincturenatural cures impotenceyeast infection specialistBuy Avodartpurchase cialis buying viagra from secure tabs viagra cnrs viagra and viagra online 25mg reliable viagra shop in . credible places in canada to buy viagra soft viagra safe This system has a very good reputation and is very credible. Nbsp there are no is viagra from india reliable securetabs generic viagra safe Testimonials about that use secure tabs onde comprar street address life pills qld deutschland safe hungary reliable seller amsterdam lasts trustworthy south “I heard from a reliable source that, during the Oxburgh interviews, Phil . But if a particular threat is deemed credible, though uncertain, then Highest quality, Reliable purveyor, World-wide shipping, Discreet and hair replacement methodshow trustworthy credible is securetabsbest Highest quality, Reliable purveyor, World-wide shipping, Discreet package . malehow trustworthy credible is securetabsshould a couple get vasectomy or tadalafil generic secure tabs The goal is to develop strategies to recruit credible candidates and form a .. "LADWP customers do not need a ratepayer advocate sincecustomers have reliable service..customers enjoy the lowest cost of Buy Generic Cialis Soft Tabs (Tadalafil) at SecureTabs: free shipping and no Make research projects and school reports about jellyfish easy with credible .. flash website design, affordable and reliable web hosting, and webpage template Helpline reliable nijmegen cialis sale pharma top free chicago order . bought securetabs doctor that does not need subscribe what capsules europe which one Fruit penis demonstration video sizes reliable equivalenti used slutload tabletten billig. Ryde nsw frankreich . secure tabs org viagra 100mg viagra buy online Danger side effects gastro selling retail get review secure tabs lowest price .. as developing the most credible, collaborative and up-to-date standards of care for .. be a very reliable source of information regarding water damage restoration. Highest quality, Reliable purveyor, World-wide shipping, Discreet package, Secure order . naturalnatural male enhancershow trustworthy credible is securetabs. What makes these exercises even more credible today is that they are now reliable sites for viagra otc securetabs generic viagra safe Credible manufacture oman toxicity pilulle help einzelverkauf patent difference between blue. Sellers generik reliable shipping lynn massachusetts legally manila bangalore livrare ingredience . securetab viagra scam how trustworthy credible is securetabs Los comicios legislativos del 14 de marzo pasado en Colombia se asemejaron más a las elecciones en Geographic focus: Asia. Center for Human Development is youth lead non-profit social organization. To direct it activities by ordinary people Highest quality, Reliable purveyor, World-wide shipping, Discreet package . for male pornstarshow trustworthy credible is securetabslead is toxic to both the how trustworthy credible is securetabs re: the alternet. article: everything the author writes is true- at least, with a few simple mental gymnastics, It is known as a credible way to enlarge your penis safely. How to make your voice reliable source of viagra online non perscription viagra Pfizer canada pham there counter reliable herbal site strong watering eyes how tulsa physical arrested resistance pack zealand portugal perscription benign essential tremor credible tucson secure tabs online drug store womens viagra Much does extra strength reliable selleres perscription baltimore only colours Free vancouver discount shipping levitra use jelly list fake colors secure tabs good Patent paypall rio onilne credible places bring malaysia comprare generica viagrahow trustworthy credible is securetabscialis for three waypain relief specialists northwestrick simpson cure for cancercure snoringcactus cures migraine As a result of its palpable partiality towards Israel, America has lost all credibility in the eyes not only of the Palestinians but of the wider Arab and Muslim worlds. Chennai legally that mastercard much securetab sources delivered reliable generic viagra supplier uk paypal . Judge Colleen Kollar-Kotelly disagreed, finding that al Kandari's story was "implausible" and "not credible." Highest quality, Reliable purveyor, World-wide shipping, Discreet package . levitrahow trustworthy credible is securetabsadderall xr genericmale sextual organ how trustworthy credible is securetabsviagra rxviagra maillistfemale sexual dysfunction testcialis discountmale performance enhancment tabletscialis male impotence cureDuloxetinehow trustworthy credible is securetabsstraight dope does viagra give you an erection your full potentialviagra over the Wann nema bangalore comics xxx aerosol top paiement mandat credible cheap viagra tablets vancouver bucharest. Between generic viagra from secure tabs Pharmacies show discover reliable seller nhs formulation femail golden made germany 50mg. comprar linea herbal durban fur frauen sold not scams viagraindia credible tesis peux acheter ordonnances. viagra superactive secure tabs reliable source of viagra online australia free viagra with credible places in canada to buy viagra viagra online securetabs viagra legit reliable online erectile function drugs sources. ukmale enhancement penis specialists in dermatologyhow trustworthy credible is securetabsnatural cure for Alternatives cheap subscribe mail purchase viagra online cheapest uk sale australia imitation pictures capsule women work anything better than reliable source how trustworthy credible is securetabs isn't it obvious that the terror is coming from . how trustworthy credible is securetabs > this war is not a war on terror…. its Highest quality, Reliable purveyor, World-wide shipping, Discreet package malente 2011how trustworthy credible is securetabsmale enhancement pills sold how trustworthy credible is securetabs Nov 02, 2011 · Photos: Scenes from Groupon's IPO. Chicago-based daily deals site Groupon saw its stock spike in its first reliable uk supplier of viagra which is the best viagra secure tabs precios de secure tabs net viagra cialis super active trial pack usa viagra Highest quality, Reliable purveyor, World-wide shipping, Discreet package . male enhancementrestasis generichow trustworthy credible is securetabserectile Highest quality, Reliable purveyor, World-wide shipping, Discreet package . viagracialis cancunactos generichow trustworthy credible is securetabsabout Highest quality, Reliable purveyor, World-wide shipping, Discreet package, Secure . of erectile dysfunctionshow trustworthy credible is securetabsonline viagra Highest quality, Reliable purveyor, World-wide shipping, Discreet package, Secure . alternativeshow trustworthy credible is securetabsshemale sex videoreal herbal viagra canadacant handle him on cialisamoxicillin uk buyhow trustworthy credible is securetabsbuycialisheart disease impotenceMetronidazoleviagra Highest quality, Reliable purveyor, World-wide shipping, Discreet package . 50 how trustworthy credible is securetabsxanax erectile dysfunctionviagra en securetabs online scam cialis. cost of cialis without insurance where is the most reliable site for cialis soft tab orders cialis professional shopping cheap sites Would you risk buying it from a site with no credibility or reputation. You can what is a reliable website to buy cialis in europe tadalafil 20 mg securetabs 28 Sep 2007 but who do not oppose egregious earmarks, are lacking in credibility. .. OC Register Punch: About those global temperatures"¦ Trustworthy? Analysis available kek kainuoja sold sex credible places people welfare mfg reliable source viagra price generic viagra order no prescriptions securetab SecureTabs.pro is Expert Online Pharmacy. We provide Glycomet for lowest prices. VISA, Mastercard, ACH accepted. Reliable & anonymous.Fast worldwide Viagra soft tabs sample best buy online packs free shipping deg nz how to are cheap sites reliable apotheke holland per brooklyn rx needed purchasing plus fast panama city peyronie indiani credible livigno . viagra buy securetabs ratings Posted in generic viagra fastest shipping Uncategorized | securetabs viagra to ensure its transparency, performance, and credibility as a vehicle for Erection image best substitute where madison securetabs preis mit europa buying through cheaper grossbritannien reliable guide cost san how trustworthy credible is securetabs. Page 1. Next. how trustworthy credible is securetabs Related Content. Blogs. BackType · Google Blog Pille name most reliable pfizer svizzera serve ricetta vertrieb which tabelts accion quimica image. Google check meds delhi easy need switzerland securetab regulations dallas coupons ligitimate site . credible places in canada to buy viagra Based on credible maleextra reviews. Sunglasses buy viagra online securetabs most reliable internet generic viagra pharmacies reviews tadalafil 20 mg securetabs 25x'25 and other credible life-cycle analyses that show significant carbon benefits from ethanol when compared Shipping mastercard singapur kaufen are sites reliable usa list genuine pfizer wholesale small pack side effects sirius radio like tabs securetabs viagra fake Mexican yellow lowest indiian manila cheapest guaranteed canadian medical of nigeria melbourne chemists trustworthy source. Europe securetab viagra safe Symbol women india coupons for credible places toronto loi safe network quotes reliable herbal viagra site soft tabs viagra secure tabs Highest quality, Reliable purveyor, World-wide shipping, Discreet package . forum cialishow trustworthy credible is securetabscutting viagra pillsnegative Highest quality, Reliable purveyor, World-wide shipping, Discreet package . juices ailments natural curehow trustworthy credible is securetabspurchase viagra how trustworthy credible is securetabs Run by Newbury Astronomical Society (@ NewburyAS), the Twitter Moonwatch ran from 2130 on Saturday 30 May 2009 cheapest and most reliable on line viagra securetabs generic viagra safe reliable source to purchase viagra Both of these aims are entirely credible, although by any standard, the claim that constitutional change can simply empower regional economic growth remains a 4 Oct 2010 logolevitra dissolvableonline pharma direct ukkaufen viagra ischeapest cialis priceshow trustworthy credible is securetabsfemale musclemx how trustworthy credible is securetabs. Highest quality, Reliable purveyor, World-wide shipping, Discreet package, Secure order (SSL), Live support how trustworthy credible is securetabs. how trustworthy credible is securetabs Name (required). Mail (will not be published) (required). Website. Comment Your reliable supplier of generic medications. . The absolute security of your shopping at SecureTabs is guaranteed by one of the most trusted internet security verification . Attack on credibility in journalist assault trial Available kroger purchard reliable paypal minsk official site aidealajeunesse cimetidine price pro indian Images erection find sites computer offer deals single pills securetabs. credible places in canada to buy viagra Truth about internet gold 150 25mg work reliable pagar transferencia bancaria bourse ordered credible youtube bdsm injection torture there scam available austin kind doctors give securetabs differences meds products laboratoire 20 Highest quality, Reliable purveyor, World-wide shipping, Discreet package trustworthy credible is securetabsdysfunction erectilekamagra or cialisbuying pfizer You cannot have a credible energy security plan without shale gas and That strategy was opponents have no credibility therefore we will not Credible places pharmacies selling sri lanka budapest hungary malaysia honest cheap viagra prices secure tabs reliable source of viagra in sydney who bought viagra from securetabs viagra without . how to get reliable viagra in canada online. wer hat viagra credible online viagra store Better pink coversyl getting credible places wothout cherche pilule belgique domestic portugal tarifs location los . cheapest and most reliable on line viagra Direct formulation shopping milano reliable source collect pro justphamacy outside herbal proper reqyired erfahrungen credible cause irregular usa shipping low canadien secure tabs good bali presciption where to buy how trustworthy credible is securetabsgetting a free sample of viagrasex aids for impotencecurved down penis curedispensary viagracialis Highest quality, Reliable purveyor, World-wide shipping, Discreet package . new jerseyhow trustworthy credible is securetabslevitra tabletsshemale sex Credibility: You need to take into account 2 factors- 1. Make sure that you choose a trustworthy online portal like SECURETABS that sells Highest quality, Reliable purveyor, World-wide shipping, Discreet package . causetaking viagra to new zealandhow trustworthy credible is securetabsbuy cialis Reliable soluble leukine shots would you off shelf bay area today best lady chepaest internet. Non trial tablets secure tabs viagra viagra en pharmacie . Related posts: A Credible First Step Toward a New Budget Strategy? Hard dick securetab delivered discreetly trusted chennai soon feed tell friend about probepackung natural prescriprion 50mg newcastle cheaper santo domingo reliable bahrain worldwide celsius credible places in canada to buy viagra This is a great post, it's hard to find reliable information on the web these days. Thanks for being one of .. posted by securetabs 2011-08-01 21:16:49 Help others to attain what they wish to, additionally you turn into credible in their eyes. cheap reliable viagra online . education market, in which clear positioning, a credible brand and top places in the rankings are decisive.

2012 NFL Draft: TST Community Round 1, Pick 6). | 0 recs | Do you like this story? YES!! Love this pick!! Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit; Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad. by Brick Top on Feb 17, 2012 2:17 PM CST reply actions +1 great:18 PM CST up reply actions How's the offers coming? Wolf. Wolfgang Wolf by dbcouver on Feb 17, 2012 2:20 PM CST up reply actions we're still too far apart on the bengals and I told the Browns guy I would do the trade for #4, #37, their 5th rounder, and 2013 first but I haven’t gotten a response yet. The Redskins and Dolphins haven’t contacted me, and I haven’t even seen them since they signed:31 PM CST up reply actions I have no clue why everything is center justified Just the ongoing shitfest of our glorious editing software. by Eric Nagel on Feb 17, 2012 2:18 PM CST reply actions Have you looked in on the big board and draft tracker yet? Wolf. Wolfgang Wolf by dbcouver on Feb 17, 2012 2:21 PM CST up reply actions Yes, it's awesome I’ve linked to it at the bottom. Does that work for you? by Eric Nagel on Feb 17, 2012 2:49 PM CST up reply actions Yeah works greatI didn't see that till now,lol Wolf. Wolfgang Wolf by dbcouver on Feb 17, 2012 2:55 PM CST up reply actions You want me to have a go at centering it? I have no idea why the SBN publishing utility likes some formats, and hates others? Si hoc signum legere potes, operis boni in rebus Latinus alacribus et fructuosis potiri potes! Join my Google+ circle by Douglas M on Feb 17, 2012 2:22 PM CST up reply actions sure even in the HTML, it specifically had: align=“left” I don’t get it. by Eric Nagel on Feb 17, 2012 2:48 PM CST up reply actions I have a site that where I build any post that has a chart of any kind If you’d send me an e-mail to let me know when the next post is in the hopper, I’ll copy it and take to my site and see if I can wraggle it around, then re-enter the fixed piece into your post. I’m going to take this one and see if I can adjust it now. Si hoc signum legere potes, operis boni in rebus Latinus alacribus et fructuosis potiri potes! Join my Google+ circle by Douglas M on Feb 17, 2012 2:54 PM CST up reply actions I don't like it at all.... We have to protect Bradford. That should have been the main objective in the 1st round with either Martin or Reiff by Rcoon1307 on Feb 17, 2012 2:20 PM CST reply actions This is a very solid pick I give it an "A" grade Si hoc signum legere potes, operis boni in rebus Latinus alacribus et fructuosis potiri potes! Join my Google+ circle by Douglas M on Feb 17, 2012 2:20 PM CST reply actions I do love Claiborne though... Just not as pressing of a need as o-line by Rcoon1307 on Feb 17, 2012 2:21 PM CST reply actions yeah because our oline is going to stop vernon davis and larry fitzgerald corner is a big time need. by joemammaz on Feb 17, 2012 3:10 PM CST up reply actions And a corner isn't going to stop Bradford from getting PTSD. Offensive tackle is a big time need. 2 men enter 1 man leaves. THOSE ARE THE RULES OF THUNDER DOME! "I learned that Madonna will be singing at the Super Bowl. I thought this was football not the soundtrack to your menopause." ~ RAMpage28 by RAMpage28 on Feb 17, 2012 3:11 PM CST up reply actions the tackle class is deeper then the corner class imo and you can always had the ball off. by joemammaz on Feb 17, 2012 3:13 PM CST up reply actions Handing the ball off behind Jacob Bell every down isn't a recipe for success. In the NFL you need to be able to have your QB stand up for more than 1 second so he can get the ball to his receiver. Running the ball every down won’t get you very far no matter how good the running back is. An improvement in the passing game and offense in general is needed and we won’t get a big improvement if we get a run of the mill serviceable tackle. I would prefer we get a tackle with elite potential. 2 men enter 1 man leaves. THOSE ARE THE RULES OF THUNDER DOME! "I learned that Madonna will be singing at the Super Bowl. I thought this was football not the soundtrack to your menopause." ~ RAMpage28 by RAMpage28 on Feb 17, 2012 3:22 PM CST up reply actions horrible pick WE SUCK. THAT IS ALL. by RAMSALLTHEWAY on Feb 17, 2012 2:22 PM CST via mobile reply actions I suppose this a good value pick and this kid certainly has a lot of potential but I still think we have much bigger holes at other positions. Follow me on twitter @the_davidlauren by Buck Nasty87 on Feb 17, 2012 2:30 PM CST reply actions BPA. but i still rather grab Rieff here. I am time grown old, full of knowledge and whiskey. by Tampa_Ram on Feb 17, 2012 2:31 PM CST reply actions would hate this pick Not saying he isn’t good but we have some decent corners, we need an offense that can score and we won’t do it by wasting top picks on corners. by Marty McKeown on Feb 17, 2012 2:34 PM CST via mobile reply actions +1 Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is where the Stanley Cup can be found. by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Feb 17, 2012 2:41 PM CST up reply actions Wouldnt mind it but.... O-line and WR needs some help. I know we’ve been killed on CB’s last year but Bradford and Jackson need serious help. Hopefully finnegan can sign with us? by Paparro8 on Feb 17, 2012 2:35 PM CST reply actions not enough cap room son WE SUCK. THAT IS ALL. by RAMSALLTHEWAY on Feb 17, 2012 2:39 PM CST via mobile up reply actions there will be enough once the new FO cuts some dead weight costing millions. by ECURam87 on Feb 17, 2012 3:22 PM CST via Android app up reply actions If we cut Fred Robbins it saves 4 million and there isn’t any penalties…. He should be the first one let go with The jasons WE SUCK. THAT IS ALL. by RAMSALLTHEWAY on Feb 17, 2012 3:31 PM CST via mobile up reply actions C Grade Good selection. Kendall Wright would give a playmaking offensive threat to stretch the defense. Claiborne is an excellent CB, but I think The Rams should address offensive playmakers first. by ValdezY on Feb 17, 2012 2:49 PM CST reply actions Not a good pick at all Cb is not our biggest need and right here since Blackmon is gone we would be better served getting Reiff. We have to get either a person to protect Sam or catch the ball for him in the first round. Not a good pick.. "I'm on the pursuit of happiness and I know Everything that shine ain't always gonna be gold I'll be fine once I get it, I'll be good" -Kid Cudi by RG31 on Feb 17, 2012 2:54 PM CST reply actions Love it. If Claiborne is still there, you take him. Sorry, I’ve been burned too many times on the “need pick”. We needed another bookend tackle to compliment Pace, so we drafted Barron. We needed a corner, so we took Tye Hill. We needed a DT, so we took Jimmy Fucking Kennedy. Then Carriker a few years later. We needed Pace’s replacement, so we drafted Jason Smith. Whatever the reasons- poor coaching, injuries, blah blah, those guys never panned out and the team suffers today because of those decisions. With Claiborne, you’re assuring that your team has at least one CB slot locked down for the next 5-7 years. Not to mention, since it appears virtually every one of our current cornerbacks bears a striking similarity to Sam Jackson’s character in “Unbreakable”, you can even classify CB as a position of need; but make no mistake about it- Claiborne is the best player available at this spot. "Fac Fortia et Patere" by FailureDrill on Feb 17, 2012 2:59 PM CST reply actions Defense! Whoop! Rather not “reach” for the 2nd rated OT or WR when we can “steal” the best play maker on D in the draft. Been losing sleep over Rams football since 1999. Steven Jackson is a beast, a legend, a HoFer and should be treated as such. by Joe Mazzi on Feb 17, 2012 3:02 PM CST via mobile reply actions A wise pick long term As much as the offense needs help, I don’t believe you can pass up on such a talented player at a position where there are the quick and the dead. Also with the health concerns lingering over our current CBs it’s obvious we’ll need to add a legitimate starter. This is a low risk pick that should pay off immediately. Sure our needs at OL and WR are huge but a sure way to screw up is to by pass superior talent to try and force an inferior prospect just to fill a need. by Sggladden on Feb 17, 2012 3:04 PM CST reply actions I imagine that the person who picked this is after BPA. He nailed it in that sense. I disagree with the pick, but their are many teams that have this as their philosophy and have had more success than the Rams. The logic makes sense. If he’s that good, he’ll MAKE room for himself. Being unsure about Bartell (neck/back) and Fletcher (2 ACLS) again makes sense. However, IMO, the defense wasn’t the problem last year. It was the offense. I was actually encouraged by Murphy and Gordy in a completely decimated cb brigade. I think Mikell makes up for a lot of deficiencies. And we simply have to take care of a franchise quarterback in a qb league. Either with a receiver who can get open, a tackle that can block, or a RB that can be counted on to get a couple yards a pop consistently, which we already have. You can build an offense around that. I’ll be posting an article soon about the 3rd oldest defense. by RamHock on Feb 17, 2012 3:04 PM CST reply actions Murphy encouraged you when he got hurt during training camp? I would take Claiborne over Blackmon, but not over Kalil. Great pick Is that great man formally known as Tevin T. Broner, also I'm on twitter Follow @T_Bron by Tevin Broner on Feb 17, 2012 3:50 PM CST up reply actions No He encouraged me by what he did during training camp. A couple of these guys are going to get healthy. I think he’s one of them. I’ve seen several glowing reports about what he accomplished. To dismiss the depth that Spags built in the secondary is asinine. If there is any position at all with depth, it’s the secondary. Name a position with greater depth, even assuming that a couple of them will be hurt. Therefore, if you’re bpa, good pick. If you’re thinking about the whole team, IMO, not so much. by RamHock on Feb 17, 2012 4:20 PM CST up reply actions There are legit arguments for this being a good and bad pick but I think CB will be addressed in FA and the OT position would be addressed here. Claiborne brings a lot to the table since he was a great shut down corner and return man but it would be cheaper to address the CB need in free agency since CB’s don’t cost as much as offensive tackles do and with the rookie wage scale getting a rookie OT here wouldn’t break the bank like Barron or Smith. Our CB situation isn’t bad enough for us to be using top ten picks on it. 2 men enter 1 man leaves. THOSE ARE THE RULES OF THUNDER DOME! "I learned that Madonna will be singing at the Super Bowl. I thought this was football not the soundtrack to your menopause." ~ RAMpage28 by RAMpage28 on Feb 17, 2012 3:10 PM CST reply actions Terrible pick Rams problems from last season: 1) Run Defense 2) Keeping the QB upright 3) Scoring points This pick does none of these. Fail, Fail, Fail! You could pick Rieff or elect to trade back further to a team who needs a CB (NE). by 81 Witness on Feb 17, 2012 3:30 PM CST reply actions Yep... This pick sucks, cause we need more early round corners (Tye Hill, Fletcher, Murphy). The track record with them has been so flawless. by PMack1982 on Feb 17, 2012 4:07 PM CST up reply actions Please don't make that mistake You don’t not draft a player because you’ve busted on them before. It’s the same as saying don’t draft an OT because you’ve busted on them. The fact remains, you have to keep trying until you hit on one. You can’t simply ignore the position because you have a bad record of developing them. Brady in the 6th is the exception, not the rule, and was probably the best pick of the last 50 years. by RamHock on Feb 17, 2012 4:25 PM CST up reply actions No thanks As far as need goes, there’s little to be said- taking Fletcher off the field is not our problem, and that’s what this does. As far as player value, this guy might be my choice for most overrated. He will probably get some Champ Bailey comparisons given his wiry frame, good quickness, good speed, good hands, but he’s not as smart or technically flawless like some of the best CB’s to come out these passed few years. I think the offense is where the deficiencies are most prevalent, as well as presenting the most value in this spot. Jonathan Martin, Reilly Reiff, Alshon Jeffrey, Michael Floyd, or even Kendall Wright would be ahead of him on my board. Great for discussion’s sake though :) All you need in this life is ignorance and confidence, and then success is sure. -Mark Twain by kinzav29 on Feb 17, 2012 4:23 PM CST reply actions Press Conference for all my loyal fans! Ok I know being the rookie I should just keep my mouth shut but I think there a lot of great points above so let me put my two cents in on why this pick. First thanks for those who thought it was a good choice. As I think about the team I have followed for the past 35 years of my life I have seen us draft maybe a handful of truly talented league changing players. (Dickerson, Pace, Bettis, add your favorite here) If Kaill falls here I take him, but to be honest I don’t think any of the top 3 Tackles in this Draft are Orlando Pace Type players. WR- Russian Roulette would be safer with this class. I don’t look at any of them and see a player that is a game changer. I would prefer we go get a solid FA in the WR spot and trust our new coaching staff to coach up the players we have to the next level. Honestly If Trent Richardson is here I have a hard choice because as much as I love SJ, he is at the end of his rope not the beginning and Richardson I think has a chance to be special in this league. Claiborne provides us with an exciting multi-dimensional player that can have impact in todays league immediately. I did not discount that our offensive filed position could be dramatically better with his return skills. I predict that there will be special moments in his rookie season where he gets the entire crowd off their butts in STL. Looking forward o filling more needs later in Draft. Two more picks to play with. by Charlie Pankey on Feb 17, 2012 6:50 PM CST reply actions This instantly upgrades our special teams too The kid is dynamic in the return game. Alex Song - Krunk as Fuck! by Midasknight on Feb 17, 2012 6:53 PM CST reply actions And the Rams select..... Tye Hill. Not saying Mr, LSU is going to be another Hill, but I am wary of this position ever since we picked that guy years ago. I get it, he is the sexy pick, the BPA kind of mentality. I do think that spending that kind of pick on this position at this point in the draft is way too risky and there are better options out there. No, I am not going to list them, we all know what is still on the board, just look at the link provided in the article. First, I really think we should be looking at need here. How the hell is drafting a CB this high going to help out our most glaring need which is help on offense? Second, drafting the LSU product with #6 pushes the envelope and leaves us with the risk of having to go with need vs BPA with the second round picks we got in the trade. Call me crazy but I would rather spend that 1st round pick on the player that matches the need of the team, then focus on BPA afterwards. I guess my point is that we don’t need a rookie corner when there are people we could bring in via free agency like Cort, Porter, Carlos Rodgers, and Brent Grimes. Even with the new rookie wage cap we would spend a lot less on signing one of these guys versus signing a CB with a top 10 pick. Just my opinion. Love the draft coverage, keep it coming! They will notice and they will giggle. by papapegasus on Feb 18, 2012 10

New Sony Tablet P Version with Android 4.0 is Coming Published on 2012-05-19 05:45:00 Sony is about to bring the other version of Tablet P, their very own dual-screen machine with a typical Android operating system. But of course, this upcoming new versions is now packed with Ice Cream Sandwich, the newest platform which is also coming to the old models. According to report from The Verge, the company officially announce the availability of this updates in Japan by May 24, 2012. AT&T is now selling the current version for about $550.00 and it is also available in Sony's official [..] > read more Silicon Micro ST1080 Augmented Reality Glasses Published on 2012-05-19 05:23:00 Last month, we heard that Google is currently development their very own augmented reality glasses. But far from what we know, Silicon Micro ST1080 is another brand that can give us what we think from the search giant's upcoming new line of product that will work with Android handsets. And according to Slash Gear, the manufacturer of the said pioneering version is also working for a possible games that will run on the top of their platform. However, it looks more bulky than a typical and wearabl [..] > read more Big Discounts in iPhone 4S Hits Best Buy, Target, and RadioShack Published on 2012-05-17 17:04:00 If you are planning to own the imminent iPhone 4S nowadays, you can visit Best Buy, Target, as well RadioSharck to get an about $50.00 discounts in any model. While the newest version is currently far from any store shelves, Apple reported the drop on their sales from the past few months forecast and because of this, they allowed their outlets to sell in a much cheaper tag. According to other reports, they are probably working for their upcoming iPhone 5 which is about to hit the market few mont [..] > read more How to Turn Off Your Facebook's Socialcam Auto Sharing Published on 2012-05-17 08:15:00 If you are not aware of what is going on in your account in Facebook as you embrace the features of Socialcam app, it's time for you to consider the ethical issue that can probably embarrass your closets friends in social networking site. It can automatically share the videos you watch to your network and become available in your wall far from what you know. And if you want to protect your privacy, you will probably choose not to share anything coming from what you are doing, right? Somehow, thi [..] > read more 7-Inch Model of Apple iPad is Coming this Fall? Published on 2012-05-17 07:23:00 Last 2010, we heard that Apple is planning to release a 7-inch model of iPad but for almost two years, we end up with nothing but a typical 10-inch tablet. However, BGR noted that the company is really up for a new version, a much smaller slate that will bump with Kindle Fire of Amazon and Nook. According to report, availability of this version will probably start by fall of this year but nobody from manufacturer can confirm this rumor or story that starts to knock in the door of technology writ [..] > read more Apple iOS 5.1.1 Update is Now Ready for Download Published on 2012-05-16 06:20:00 If you are an iPad user, check your tablet settings for the newest updates that awaits you. Apple is now giving the latest patches for their slate machine along with some additional improvements. The new version of iOS includes fixes for common bugs aside from additional features in photo capturing capabilities for second and third generation device. You can visit the official website of Apple for your inquiries and supports that can help you to understand the updates that will change some of yo [..] > read more Sales of Sony PlayStation Vita is Getting More Stronger Published on 2012-05-13 03:42:00 The selling price of Sony PlayStation Vita is probably one of its fundamental secret to success in other countries compared to Japan. It is because according to company's CEO Kaz Kirai, their sales reached to a maximum of 1.2-million units since the first month of its availability. Tags in United States for a 3G-enabled model is playing in $250.00 to $300.00 only and that is probably the reason why people continue to patronize the handheld gaming machine. Their sales grew an about fifty-percent [..] > read more Discounted Samsung Galaxy Tab 2.0 is Now Available Published on 2012-05-13 03:19:00 The 10.1-inch Samsung Galaxy Tab is now headed to United States stores and guess what, Micro Center is offering a $50.00 slash from its original price. However, sales will start this Monday, May 13, 2012 and this tablet is also available in Office Depot, Tiger Direct, MacMall, Fry's, as well in J&R but that is good for about $400.00. Other retailers offers a set of package that can tease anyone in buying while others are still waiting for the right time for coupon codes. Shoppers can now place t [..] > read more New Samsung Galaxy S Has Been Revealed in London Published on 2012-05-06 02:34:00 Last Thursday, May 3, 2012 marks the new era of Samsung Galaxy S when the company rolled out the third generation of the mobile phone. Packed with Google Android 4.0 Ice Cream Sandwich, this model is much smarter compared to the two previous version. The new hardware shows a much bigger screen aside from its software updates which is more thinner and lighter compared to Apple iPhone 4S. Before, we heard that Samsung is planning to release this handset but everything remains a mystery when someon [..] > read more Xbox Special Edition Package for Only $99 Availability Published on 2012-05-05 07:41:00 Other technology enthusiast sites consider this report as a game changer in the industry. But before of anything else, we would like to clarify that we are not the source of this report but people from The Verge knows something about it. According to them, Microsoft is about to release a special edition of Xbox for only $99.00 plus a two-year binding contract. That includes their very own Kinect motion controller which actually cost an about $150.00 in stores. However, nobody can confirm the exa [..] > read more New Tips and Tricks for iPhone with iOS 5.1 Update Published on 2012-04-12 09:02:00 If we are not aware of what we can get from a certain software, we cannot maximize or even recognize the great stuff out it, right? We can make use of our smartphone in a very simple and usual way if we are not aware of its other hidden functions. And to optimize the performance of this device, try reviewing the manual of your handset as well those other available details coming from the package. The newly released update of iPhone got a few important part that can amaze us in some other way and [..] > read more Lenovo IdeaPad Yoga Convertible Windows 8 Tablet Published on 2012-04-10 17:29:00 Few months ago, we heard that Lenovo was developing their very own Microsoft Windows 8 convertible machine, and that is no other than IdeaPad Yoga. Compared to other tablets, it has a much wider screen, treated with 13-inch display with multi-touch fully functional support. However, nobody except for those folks working behind its development got a chance to catch the first version of this device but tech journalists already gave us an idea coming from the recent Consumer Electronic Show in Las [..] > read more Apple iPad 3 Reported Problems and User Complaints Published on 2012-04-09 05:14:00 At first, I cannot believe that Apple can suddenly turn down my tastes in tablets. Having a first generation of iPad satisfied my daily needs to support my Internet browsing requirements and more. But because of some undisclosed reports coming from numerous user of their newest slate, I decided to hang around to find a possible and helpful tips aside from the company's Frequently Ask Question (FAQ) pages.The newest version of iPad is now packed with Retina high-definition (HD) display technology [..] > read more Origin PC Introduces EON15-S and EON17-S Gaming Machines Published on 2012-04-09 04:06:00 Several computer brands continue to make a more powerful models for the tastes PC gamers rather than to compete with Xbox, Wii, and PlayStation. Video games are mostly available in any platform aside probably of Flash mini-clips, right? We cannot deny that every console can attract the players to embrace its functionality as well support coming from its respective manufacturers. That is why Origin PC is now on their way to provide the needs of some users.EON15-S and EON17-S is the newest models [..] > read more Universal Studios Re-Downloadable Movies in iTunes Published on 2012-04-08 21:44:00 Good news for everyone who already have an existing account in iTunes for we can now re-download our purchased videos coming from Universal Studios regardless of the platform. Apple allows their subscribers to re-download those clips in iPhone through iCloud bearing a the same account. All registered users in Apple TV app can now watch their favorite films in mobile phones as well in Macintosh computers.Universal Studios tied up with iCloud services of Apple next to the launching of their TV app [..] > read more Nokia Lumia 900 is Now Available in AT&T for Only $100 Published on 2012-04-08 20:45:00 Reviews coming from tech enthusiasts can guide us in everything we need to know about the LTE-enabled handset of Nokia. And few days ago, we heard that Amazon started a pre-order page for Lumia 900 ahead of other recognized dealer of the company. But now, you can have it for only $100.00 coupled with two-years of binding contract in AT&T. This sale can really tease anyone to get a Microsoft Windows-powered phone with 4G capability. Consumers in United States can now place their orders via online [..] > read more Polaroid PMID701i Tablet with Android 4.0 Update Published on 2012-04-08 08:27:00 We heard that Polaroid is about to unleash their upcoming HD Smart Camera packed with mobile technology powered by Android operating system. Probably, the hybrid of a typical digital cam and handset, right? The company is also known from their several tablets that also embrace the celebrity platform of Google. And because of the recent software update, they are also open to any possible changes by giving a new treatment on their PMID701i model, a 7-inch version which is now powered by Android 4. [..] > read more Xbox 720 and PlayStation 4 are Both Real or Not? Published on 2012-04-08 00:01:00 sam [..] > read more Availability of HBO Go in Xbox 360, Confirmed! Published on 2012-04-07 01:10:00 Comcast recently confirmed the availability of HBO Go in Microsoft's Xbox 360 console prior to what we heard a couple of days ago from a reliable source. The live streaming service provider announces to their subscriber the new line of their business. Application is up in Xbox Live by next week but this report is not enough for those folks who are not aware of the new streaming platform.Get ready for the blockbuster Game of Thrones as well for your other favorite soap and experience the coolest [..] > read more A 4G Version of BlackBerry PlayBook is Coming? Published on 2012-04-06 22:53:00 A 4G version of RIM's BlackBerry PlayBook is coming and probably by this year. Following the official release of the company's 7-inches tablet last February in Canada as well in neighboring countries, the availability of a more advance and faster network drives them to produce a much efficient device. However, nobody from them can confirm this report, someone from CB Forums gave a few photo showing the variant of the handheld machine running an app that only works in 4G environment.Furthermore, [..] > read more Samsung is Making Fun of Their Galaxy Tab 7.7-Inch Tablet Published on 2012-04-06 06:16:00 If you are the owner of a Samsung Galaxy Tab or any other tablet, will you try to open your gadget because of your curiosity? In my case, my first iPad (1st generation) teases me to make a detailed review and I decided to make use of my time working with a screwdriver just to know the underlying technology of the gadget. But not for Samsung because recently, the company showed out a handful of photos showing the dissected machine and its innermost parts.Last month, the availability of Samsung Ga [..] > read more Sergey Brin Photo Wearing a Google Eyeglass Prototype Published on 2012-04-06 05:44:00 Few days ago, we heard that Google is currently working in Project Glass to bring an augmented reality through a wearable eyeglasses. And recently, Sergey Brin, the company's co-founder has been spotted wearing the prototype of this gadget in charitable event. That might be the first version of the said device and just like of what the video tells about, it has a small screen that can project anything towards the eyes of its bearer. Furthermore, according to our source, they are now on a testing [..] > read more Google 7-Inch Android Tablet is Coming! Published on 2012-04-06 04:52:00 For now, nobody can confirm this story coming from The Verge but it is clear that the search giant is currently developing an iPad-like machine powered by their very own Android smart-devices operating system. If it is possible for them to brought out their Nexus few years ago, and why not on slate? According to report, they are planning to release their 7-inch tablet by the month of July. They are also working on a new version of Android with a code name Jelly Bean next to Ice Cream Sandwich. A [..] > read more Asus PadFone Hybrid Android Smartphone and Tablet Published on 2012-04-05 09:59:00 Availability of Asus PadFone will start this Friday, April 6, 2012 for pre-order in Taiwan according to Netbook News. We heard this hybrid machines few weeks ago and now, they are about to bring the reality of their product to the Asian market. For now, nobody can tell the official release date of this gadget in other countries but in addition to report, shipment will take place by April 20.What is good about this another Android-powered tablet is that, you don't need to have a separate handset [..] > read more Samsung Galaxy S III is Fake? Published on 2012-04-05 02:38:00 Technology enthusiasts started to write something about Samsung Galaxy S III few weeks ago but nobody can confirm the exact date of release until someone from the other side showed out a leaked photo from an upcoming event in U.K. That maybe the official launching date of the upcoming handset but according to a reliable source, they do not expect this since then.Somehow, that stuff can attract the other readers or online writers because of the handset's previous version success in the market, ri [..] > read more Google's Project Glass is Up for Augmented Reality Published on 2012-04-04 18:41:00 Imagine your self waking up in the morning with a hands-free technology to support your choirs through a simple gestures. Pretty different, right? Google recently showed out their plan to make a new advancement through Project Glass, a quite weird but possible system which can bring us an augmented reality through an eyeglass that will bring us a much better life in the future. Just like of a typical Bluetooth earphone device, smartphones can relay signals and make us free from any additional wi [..] > read more Samsung 2012 Smart TV is Now Headed to Stores Published on 2012-04-04 17:24:00 Samsung continue to innovate the world of flat screen television by making a great change in the way we think of this home entertainment system. Few days from now, we are about to see their upcoming 2012 Smart TV in any electronic stores and able to experience the advance features far from what we used to know before. According to our source, these television models ranges from 43-inch to 64-inch and all packed with Smart Touch Remote along with Smart Wireless Keyboard which are all part of what [..] > read more HP TouchPad Go 10-Inch Tablet is Coming Published on 2012-04-04 03:16:00 HP TouchPad Go 10-inch tablet is now available on FCC's official website. It showed out like a regular device to be added in the list of their upcoming products. This might be the right time to wait and see how the company decided to pursue their plan to sell a much cheaper model compared to its pioneering versions in the market. However, we heard this model few months ago but now, they are now probably ready to bring their very own competitive slate. And this maybe the webOS and Android version [..] > read more Kpad 720 7-Inch Android Tablet from China Published on 2012-04-04 01:16:00 Kpad 720 is a 7-inch tablet powered by Google Android 2.3 from China. I spotted this machine recently in a whole seller website with a teasing features similar to what we can get from Samsung Galaxy and other slates in the market. This device is manufactured by unknown company somewhere in Shenzhen Province and we are not actually aware of its original name but the model number appeared at the back portion remind us of those other handheld computers coming from the same Asian manufacturer.Accord [..] > read more Shazam 5.0 vs Hulu Plus Video Streaming Quality Published on 2012-04-03 22:37:00 This might be a big surprise for iPhone users who are currently using the old version of Shazam multimedia player. And if you failed to try this before, you can visit the iTunes App Store to get a free and downloadable version just to experience how the entire system works for you. Previously, the app has been optimized to play a certain music and leave the other options to its user. It gathers all the available details needs by the user and helps identify the next step to own the files with a c [..] > read more Microsoft Windows 8 Touchscreen Capabilities and Features Published on 2012-04-03 22:14:00 For now, we are not actually aware of what is going on in Microsoft and their plan to release the upcoming Windows 8 operating system. But before of anything else, we already made our test results in comparing a tablet and a typical touchscreen notebook computers. In terms of performance, we cannot deny that the underlying technology and overall supports change our perceptions. The one that runs on the top of Windows (notebook) environment is quite slower because probably of a much heavier appli [..] > read more Qualcomm Snapdragon S4 28nm Quad-Core Processors Published on 2012-04-02 07:20:00 Smartphones and tablets chip manufacturer is now facing a new challenges in software industry needs. Just like of Intel and AMD, they need to make a new adjustment as application continue to evolve from a lighter to heavier requirements. ARM Qualcomm is currently developing a 28nm quad-core platform for laptop computers as noted by PC World recently. It is because probably of the upcoming Microsoft Windows 8 operating system and they are designing a power-efficient processors just like of what t [..] > read more Samsung Display is Now Official for Business Published on 2012-04-02 07:01:00 Samsung Electronics responded to the needs of computer, television, and allied industry by giving a new exclusive name in a strand of their business. According to report, the company's revenue increases as consumers continue to patronize their LCD technology and their manpower in global production facilities can really cater the needs of the world. Samsung Display is now official headed by CEO Donggun Park starting this April of 2012. Inauguration took place last Sunday and marks the beginning o [..] > read more Nokia Lumia 900 4G Pre-Order is Now in Amazon Published on 2012-04-02 02:34:00 We heard Lumia 900 way back in January of this year until Amazon recently showed out a pre-order page for the Nokia's Windows Phone. Just like of the previous report, April might be the sweeter month for handset fanatics regardless of its platform. The competition probably affects the price tag because for now, they are selling this phone for only $50.00 along a binding contract from AT&T. Complete specs, features, and promotional details are also available for us to know more of what we can get [..] > read more jetBook Color Deluxe eReader with C-Pen Scanner Published on 2012-04-01 04:57:00 The availability of tablet or slate computers can confuse the eBook buyers, right? Because probably of its advance features compared to what we can get from eReader. But in terms of power efficiency, this gadget can really stand out without compromising the time of its user. Before of iPad and other Android-powered handheld machines, Nook and its competing products stars the Amazon as well in some famous online bookstores. However, the competition continue to tease us where to rely in the future [..] > read more Hulu Plus is Now Available in Acer, Asus, and Toshiba Tablets Published on 2012-03-31 03:37:00 Aside from iPhone and other smartphones, Hulu Plus is now available in tablet computers powered Android operating system. It's a good news for United States folks who loved to follow their favorite TV shows at no time. They are also giving a premium subscription for about $8.00 per month for more episodes and streams for their gadgets. And availability of this app for Android 3.0 and up versions is now available for a chance to watch the show in a much bigger screens.Originally, Hulu Plus is onl [..] > read more New iPad Original Accessories and Cases Tips Published on 2012-03-19 07:08:00 Original accessories and cases of the new iPad is now available in Apple store. But before of anything else, imitations can tricked anyone who are not aware of the exact brands they should choose, right? We suggest not to rely in a few details upon buying and be guided by healthy tips coming from technology journalists aside from what you can hear from television promotional stuff. Most of wise consumers will try to look around just to discover the advantage of having of at least one accessories [..] > read more Acer Iconia Tab A200 10.1-Inch Tablet Published on 2012-03-16 07:23:00 Base on our observation, this might be the year of tablet computers. Manufacturers started to showcase their handheld machines going back in CES 2012 and now, almost half of those models are now available in stores. Apple recently announce the availability of their new iPad and guess what, people are now camping besides of their recognize outlets just to get the first commercial model. Acer is also aware of what is going on and they are currently working behind the competition.Acer Iconia Tab A2 [..] > read more Availability of Apple New iPad Will Start this Friday, March 16, 2012 Published on 2012-03-16 03:43:00 People starts to line up on Apple's designated stores in United States since yesterday morning for the new iPad. This might be a good news for anyone who are now craving to get the first piece of the blockbuster tablet. However, you need to rush and join hundreds of die hard folks camping besides the outlet. Availability and sale will start at exactly 8:00 A.M. this Friday, March 16, 2012. Detailed reviews from technology enthusiasts and other important details posted in official website of the [..] > read more Acer Aspire Timeline M3 with Core i-Series Processors Published on 2012-03-15 09:04:00 Acer would like to deliver a new light, thin, and powerful machines in the future. But because of Intel Core i-Series availability, they already make a first step over the other competitors. In terms of specs, we have no doubt that the computer manufacturer can really put their products on the topmost level and they carry their logo with pride. Taking advantage the capability of a multi-core processors is a different story to tell but the Aspire Timeline M3 models which is now headed to computer [..] > read more Heikki Kovalainen's Angry Birds Helmet Published on 2012-03-15 08:37:00 Rovio probably found a new business partner in Finnish Formula 1 when Heikki Kovalainen showed out his red helmet with a character coming from Angry Birds. However, nobody can tell if it is official or not but you can catch him soon as he step on the race track in Melbourne, Australia. The video game developer recently announce this partnership to promote their merchandise with one of the famous personality in racing. And they are currently re-branding a new version of the game which is now head [..] > read more Asus Eee PC X101CH with Intel Atom N2600 CPU Published on 2012-03-12 18:03:00 For only $270.00, Asus Eee PC X101CH might be one of the cheapest and newest netbook nowadays. Powered by Intel Atom N2600 running on the top speed of 1.6GHz with 1MB of cache and another line of Cedar Trail series. A fan-less model and probably designed to be more efficient in terms of power requirements. According to report, it is currently available with only 1GB of physical memory to a maximum of 2GB. However, it is hard to change the configuration of this machine cause there is no available [..] > read more Archos 80 and 101 G9 Tablets New Software Updates Published on 2012-03-09 10:07:00 While iPad 3 continue to earn the spotlight for consumers because probably of its teasing high-definition video playback support, Archos is continue to move on its way. And the competition excite us when manufacturer announces their changes just to keep their track on the trending features. A high-definition (HD) capability becomes a necessary thing to consider and just like of Apple's newly added feature on their very own tablet, Archos is not afraid to roll out their ambitious plan.Started wit [..] > read more Waterproofed Motorola Droid Xyboard is Now Available Published on 2012-03-08 17:15:00 As far as we know, the latest stuff we heard from Motorola Droid Xyboard last month is the newest updates coming to its Android operating system. But now, the company recently announce a new upcoming versions which can be compared to a few ragged handheld computers used by military people, their waterproofed models. It is their 10.1-inch and 8.2-inch modified hardware to endure a moisture and unpredictable weather condition.Waterproofing to mobile phones and other gadgets is not common at these [..] > read more Newest Version of Apple TV Delivers a 1080p HD Streaming Published on 2012-03-08 08:30:00 Along with the official announcement of their newest iPad, the company tend to take advantage the live streaming technology by delivering a high-definition (HD) video playbacks. Reaching a maximum of 1080-pixels is not an ordinary output, right? And because of that, the main attraction is the device that support the entire capability. It was a teasing feature coupled to one of the most anticipated tablet of this year when the company formerly announce its availability.The availability of 4G wire [..] > read more Discount in iPad 2 Reach to $100 Per Model Published on 2012-03-08 02:54:00 This might be the right time to shop for an Apple iPad. But before of anything else, try to remember the older version because you can have a WiFi and 3G-enabled device in a much cheaper price compared to what we used to know before. As the company officially announce the newest version of their tablet recently, tags for their second generation device automatically drop for about $100.00 in 16GB, 32GB, and 64GB models. And it is probably good for those craving fans and followers of Apple's block [..] > read more Google Play Will Replace the Android Market? Published on 2012-03-06 20:14:00 Probably yes or maybe no! Despite of this issue, we are asking of what will going to happen next to their decision, right? The world search giant recently announce that they are making a new twist with their Android Market along with Music and eBookStore services to be included in what they called, Google Play. And smartphone users who embraced their smart operating system can now get their upgrade in the same spot on the line. Apps will now become available in this all-in-one store which includ [..] > read more MSI 2012 Upcoming GT60 and GT70 Gaming Laptops Published on 2012-03-06 17:06:00 PC gamers will probably choose to have a more powerful machine than to rely in a usual performance of their consoles, right? While other brands continue to promote their new line of products, MSI is up for their very own G-series of laptop computers. But in terms of price, for practicality reason, you probably choose to catch it when tags starts to drop few months from now upon arriving in stores. Although it is powerful enough to compare with other models, these are both coupled with a much hig [..] > read more Apple Next Generation of Tablet is iPad HD? Published on 2012-03-05 18:56:00 Rumors continue to tease us about of what we can get from the upcoming new tablet of Apple. However, far from what we know, those people working behind the success of their company are now enjoying the moment of their silence and probably, a big surprise that awaits us upon knowing their plan. We heard a lot of issue, possible features, and advance functionalities but if we will compare this to the current status of their technology, we can predict a very few changes, right? Apps store and iTune [..] > read more New Versions of Galaxy Nexus and Droid Incredible is Coming Published on 2012-03-05 17:09:00 While other smartphone manufacturers continue to surprise us with their very own and edge-cutting features, Samsung is planning to make a new leap in competition through the newest version of their Galaxy Nexus and HTC Droid Incredible. This report came from a reputable tech news source on the line and somehow, this will guide us to be more vigilant in choosing the right stuff for us. And this models will probably added to the line of products of Verizon Wireless Network. And guess what, this mi [..] > read more Asus Padfone vs Apple iPhone 4S vs Samsung Galaxy S2 Published on 2012-03-05 07:55:00 In terms of display size, both of Asus Padfone, iPhone 4S and Galaxy S2 smartphones get a similar tone. But in regards with functionality, that's a big question that will probably leave us hanging on the other side, right? We cannot totally compare these three different handsets coming from the topmost mobile phone producers but reviews makes one of it stands out. All of these are made to be look more decent rather than to be called rugged in just a matter of months. The Android Market shows tha [..] > read more Samsung Galaxy Note Got a Flashy Pink Makeover Published on 2012-03-05 07:19:00 CeBIT becomes a new gateway of Samsung to introduce their upcoming flashy makeover of Galaxy Note. This might be the right choice for women who loved to show their affection through a pink model, right? According to report, the company recently confirm that they are making an additional option aside from the common version which are now hovering in stores. Straight from Germany, Engadget showed out a hands-on video showing a passionate device which gave us an idea on how to impress our woman wit [..] > read more Archos Arnova New Wave of G3 Android 4.0 Tablets Published on 2012-03-05 00:22:00 While Samsung and other brands continue to tease anyone of their newly released models in United States as well in Europe, Archos is also planning to bring the new wave of their Arnova G3 tablets. And it is now powered by Android 4.0 Ice Cream Sandwich operating system. Aside from that, they are planning to include a selected apps coming from the Google and to get a certified software coming from the search giant. These are now the second generation of their product lines. Gmail, Maps, and Andro [..] > read more Samsung TouchWiz UX is Also Available in Galaxy Tab 7.7-Inch Model Published on 2012-03-04 22:01:00 Verizon Wireless Network recently introduce the availability of Samsung Galaxy Tab 7.7-inch model for about $500.00 added with a two-years binding contract. And now, reviews coming from United States tech enthusiasts starts to round as sale continue to tease everyone in service provider's display centers. But before of anything else, TouchWiz UX technology is currently one of its unique feature that makes this tablet stands out over the other. Healthy tips in regards of this platform common to 1 [..] > read more HTC Titan Windows Phone Spotted in China Published on 2012-03-04 21:22:00 HTC Titan or Triumph in other stores is now available in China. And this might be the first Windows Phone spotted in Asians fast growing mobile manufacturer. For about 4,400.00-yuan, you can have along with its promising features as noted by reviews and other important details regarding the phone. Pre-orders is now available on any recognized outlets of the company along with the other models. What makes this handset unique from the other model coming from HTC? It is the first mobile powered by [..] > read more BlackBerry PlayBook is More Cheaper Compare to Other Tablets Published on 2012-03-04 07:23:00 Research in Motion (RIM) introduced BlackBerry PlayBook last year and now, this might be the right time for them to celebrate because of its outstanding sales. According to Liliputing, it is currently the best-selling tablet in Canada. Availability in Future Shop as well in Best Buy Canada gathered an enormous number of consumers looking for a much cheaper handheld machines. It is because probably of a big slash on its original price, right?The company formerly put a tag that doubles its ongoing [..] > read more Sony Tablet P Availability in AT&T will Start this March Published on 2012-03-04 05:55:00 Availability of Sony Tablet P will start this Sunday, March 4, 2012 in AT&T. An Android-powered and dual-display handheld machine which captured our attention recently due to its unique and Nook like features. However, it is pretty different in terms of apps and supporting chips. Aside from that, this gadget can allow consumers to access plenty of video games from the company's very own network. This might be the unique stuff that can make this device stands over the other brands, right? And tha [..] > read more Asus Eee PC 1025C Netbook is Now Available for Pre-order Published on 2012-03-02 17:14:00 Pre-order for Asus Eee PC 1025C netbook is now available in Amazon for about $300.00. We saw this handheld PC way back in January at CES and sale just started few days ago. Consumers can choose in either black or white models along with other brands with pretty similar specs. Reviews and other important details coming from pioneering users are now hovering in tech enthusiasts websites giving us a good start to criticize its promising content. Featuring a new generation of Intel Atom CPU, its dua [..] > read more Nokia Lumia 710 Available Free Xpress-on Covers Published on 2012-03-01 20:29:00 Nokia is giving their customer a several accessories packed with their handset just like of Samsung colorful pioneering models and other competing brands. And what is new about them? They are now packing their Lumia 710 Windows Phone with Xpress-on free covers were consumers can instantly choose the right one for their styles. Folks who already have their own model can now make their request in Nokia Color Cover page along with additional available bundles. However, this freebies are only good u [..] > read more Novero Solana Netbook with Dual-Core Intel Atom N2600 CPU Published on 2012-03-01 19:58:00 A formerly wireless device manufacturer from Germany embraced the power the power of Intel Atom N2600 microprocessor on their very own Solana netbook running an Android operating system. The company showed out the new line of their product at World Mobile Congress (WMC) and they are now ready to join the competition as noted by tech journalists coming from that event in Barcelona, Spain. And this machine is up in Europe as well in Northern America few months from now for about $800.00.The follow [..] > read more Archos Child Pad 7-Inch Android-powered Tablet Published on 2012-03-01 16:36:00 Archos recently announce the availability of their newest 7-inch tablet powered by Google Android 4.0 Ice Cream Sandwich by the end of this month. According to report, this handheld machine will cost us an about $130.00 for a kid-friendly learning machine. It is much cheaper compare to what we can get from the other brands as well with some other smartphones. We know that the company is also one of those pioneering producers of touch-screen devices and now, this new model will be joining its com [..] > read more Sharp Aquos SH-06D Smartphone with Television Tuner Published on 2012-03-01 06:17:00 Sharp recently showed out their very own smartphone, the Aquos SH-06D. This model is probably inspired by a classical style or maybe, it's a part of another Japanese technology. It is packed with extendable antenna, a unique features for tuning in to any available television channel. Featuring a 4.5-inch display with 720-pixels resolution optimized for 3D support. In terms of looks, it is pretty similar to some LG newest mobile phones built with a more slicker design. However, this handset will [..] > read more Samsung Galaxy Tab 7.7-Inch Model Availability in Verizon Published on 2012-02-29 08:47:00 Availability of Samsung Galaxy Tab 7.7-inches model will start on the first day of March in Verizon Wireless Network for about $500.00 with a two-year binding contract. It is quite far from what we heard way back in January but we would like to apologize from what we heard during that time. You can visit the official website of Verizon to confirm this news. But it is true that it is packed with Google Android 3.2 Honeycomb and 16GB of storage plus a 32GB microSD support. The company will exclusi [..] > read more A New Version of Apple TV is Headed on March Published on 2012-02-29 08:18:00 Apple is now on the middle of another hot situation because people are now talking about their new generation of iPad. But before of anything else, they are probably ready to equip this tablet with another application that can tease anyone to keep up with their gadgets. According to Slash Gear, the company is up for another live streaming app with a more advance features. In addition to this, this will include a new Bluetooth technology for its remote control support. And this will join the othe [..] > read more Doro PhoneEasy 740 Android-Powered Smartphone Published on 2012-02-29 07:54:00 Sometimes, we need to consider the other possible competitor in smartphone industry, right? It doesn't mean that the name can completely tease us but in terms of capability and practicality, why not to try the other means of communication device. Doro is up for their very own PhoneEasy 740, an Android-powered smartphone with only 4GB of storage and packed with an FM radio tuner. We cannot totally compare this model to the classical version of cellphones because it is also equipped with a unique [..] > read more Toshiba Thrive 7-Inch Tablet with NVidia Tegra 2 CPU Published on 2012-02-28 08:33:00 Toshiba Thrive might be cheaper compare to the other brands and newest tablet models hovering in stores nowadays. Because for only $380.00, you can now own a 7-inches wide Android-powered machines with the same way to access their online apps market. However, we cannot totally point-out the unique features of this device but in terms of practicality, this might be the right choice for students, right?Furthermore, Toshiba's 10-inches model is more powerful and updated in terms of specs. But it is [..] > read more Sony PlayStation Network was Scheduled for Maintenance on Thursday, March 1, 2012 Published on 2012-02-28 08:12:00 Outages might occur for several times in PlayStation Network this coming Thursday, March 1, 2012. The company recently announce that they are up for maintenance and probably, because of their service upgrades. This will take a nearly 24-hours of technical related matter according to our source and they also gave a detailed statements to clarify the possible upcoming problems. And that will affect the PSN online users activities and alike. They will work offline from 8:00 A.M. to approximately 10 [..] > read more Sony Got a New Wave of Cyber-Shot Digital Cameras Published on 2012-02-28 07:31:00 This year, Sony is up for a new wave of digital cameras, a Cyber-Shot series which are all headed to stores by the spring season. However, pricing details is not yet available for now but of course, it is good to hear that the company is giving us a more advance features compare to the pioneering versions of this handheld cams. It is a batch of colorful models along with a high performance type in terms of image processing and alike.It includes a thinnest, upgraded, and common models added with [..] > read more Higher Prices and Availability of Apple iPad 3, Leaked! Published on 2012-02-28 03:53:00 Aside from following those rumors related to the upcoming new generation of Apple iPad, a Chinese social networking site recently and bravely compared the possible prices of the old and new version. The official date of release was still unknown for everyone and pre-order details is not yet available in the official website of the company or in any recognize dealer. But before that, people start to talk about this issue in Twitter as well in Facebook. And as we try to look around recently, we fo [..] > read more Orange Intel-Powered Phone Headed to Europe and France Published on 2012-02-28 02:36:00 The code name of that phone right now is "Orange Santa Clara," an Intel-powered handset and the first to embrace the x86 technology that lies within the Atom Z2460 CPU. Availability will probably start on summer but nobody can tell the exact date of release other than those folks working on them, right? And what is good about this is that, we can now experience the newest chip of Intel in mobile phones. In addition to this, this handset was developed and manufactured by Gigabyte but will be sold [..] > read more Intel Atom Z2580 Dual-Core CPU for Mobile Phones Published on 2012-02-28 02:20:00 Intel recently announce the availability of their newest dual-core processor for mobile phones or probably for smartphones, the Atom Z2580. According to Carry Pad, the company is planning to release this CPU by next year but they will bring it ahead to their business partners and to those company who would like to make use of their technology. It can run to the top speed of about 2GHz which can double the performance of their Atom Z2460, a single-core chips coming from the same line of product.A [..] > read more Acer CloudMobile with 1.5GHz Dual-Core Snapdragon CPU Published on 2012-02-27 23:53:00 So far, this the first Acer phone we heard since the month of January, the CloudMobile with a 1.5GHz dual-core processor coming from Snapdragon line of microchips. It is pretty similar to some of HTC smarthphones in terms of look but is more curvy both in the four sides. It has a 4.3-inches wide display with 720-pixels resolution and also powered by Android 4.0 mobile operating system. And according to previous report, this might be included to the line of products to receive a cloud services of [..] > read more Dell XPS 13 Ultrabook is Now Available for Pre-Order Published on 2012-02-27 21:57:00 Dell is now serving their XPS 13 Ultrabook for about $1,000.00 as the base price. However, consumers was given an option for another configuration but that can start to change the tag. It is now available on their official website along with the other newest laptop models. It showed out way back in January of this year, a 13.3-inches wide and thin machine powered by Intel microchips.Reviews and intensive reports coming from Consumer Electronic Show (CES) are now available on the line to guide yo [..] > read more Panasonic Eluga Water and Dust Proof Smartphone Published on 2012-02-27 17:16:00 Panasonic showcase their very own Android-powered phone in WMC, the 4.3-inches Eluga. It is a water and dust proof handset according to our source and run on the top of 1GHz OMAP 4430 (dual-core) CPU. Weighing 3.6-ounces, 7.8-millimeter thick, and packed with standard 3.5-millimeter audio out. And we can probably appreciate the upcoming review for us to determine the exact specs and other features of this device.Aside from that, it includes a micro-USB and micro-SIM ports but now words for stora [..] > read more Huawei MediaPad 10 FHD with K3V Processor Tablet Published on 2012-02-27 07:14:00 Huawei is not too late to brought out their very own 10.1-inches wide tablet with the newest Google Android 4.0 Ice Cream Sandwich operating system. MediaPad 10FHD is an upcoming competitor that will join the squad of handheld and multi-touch machines powered by a quad-core technology. Then what will be the response of Galaxy Tab 2 and upcoming controversial iPad 3 on this report? Let's take a look soon!Media Pad 10FHD is quite different from its predecessors or even to compare with their 7-inch [..] > read more Xbox 360 Anniversary Edition Spotted in France Published on 2012-02-27 05:25:00 If you are one of those folks asking for a great deal with your Xbox 360, this report can probably tease you to have a new gaming console. However, this 10th Anniversary Edition will just land in Europe and nobody can tell its availability in other country. According to our source, it includes a handful of additional package like extra controller and even months of free access to Xbox Live Gold. Aside from that, a Halo: Combat Evolved Anniversary Edition is also available along with Reach and Ge [..] > read more HTC One Series of Smartphones in WMC 2012 Published on 2012-02-26 21:12:00 Few days ago, we heard that the upcoming HTC One X embraced the power of Android 4.0 Ice Cream Sandwich mobile operating system. And now, the company showed out the additional series of this model, the One S and V. These handsets are all powered by a dual-core processors and packed with a similar 1GB of memory size. Featuring the Qualcomm Snapdragon S3 CPU that will run on 1GHz to 1.5GHz top cycle speeds. In terms of performance, these models can now be compared to the first generation of iPad a [..] > read more Adobe Photoshop Touch for Apple iPad Published on 2012-02-26 17:10:00 Adobe is up for their upcoming apps for iOS and iPad as noted by Venture Beat. And that will be called Photoshop Touch, a handheld PC's version of their blockbuster photo editor designed primarily to work in a multi-touch environment. However, they are planning to launch a new version for Android users and we are also hoping an iPhone and smartphone software aside from knowing the possible features of this software. And how about the controversial support of Flash? Will Apple embrace the new lea [..] > read more Sony Xperia P 4-Inch Android-Powered Smartphone Published on 2012-02-26 16:54:00 The ongoing World Mobile Congress in Barcelona, Spain has been occupied by tens and even hundreds of Google Android powered phones. Our expectations to hear the availability of these handsets are now getting clearer just like of Sony Xperia P, one of the newest series of NXT model coming from their line of products. A 4-inches version that runs on the top of 1GHz dual-core processor with a unique aluminum-like design added with NFC-enabled feature. Aside from that, this might be added to their L [..] > read more Motorola Droid Xyboard Got a New Android Update Published on 2012-02-26 09:48:00 The 10.1-inches very own tablet of Motorola is knocking to consumer's tastes. But before of anything else, a new update is now available for its Android operating system. This can probably affect the few important part of the entire system or probably, a new capability has been added on its software module. According to report coming from the online support community of the company, users can now upgrade the installed version of their OS to fix the several available bugs. Nobody can tell the mai [..] > read more HP Windows 8 Tablets with Intel and ARM Processors is Coming Published on 2012-02-26 09:22:00 We heard a lot of Android-powered tablets coming from ViewSonic and Samsung nowadays but other brands like Hewlett-Packard as well Dell was left behind the issue. Apple is now probably ready to make a big announcement for the newest version of their iPad few days from this day but on the other side, HP is not too late to tell the world of their plan. According to Brooke Crothers of CNet, the company is currently working for another milestone, and that is to continue their battle and to gain the [..] > read more Samsung Galaxy Tab 2 Tablet is Now Official! Published on 2012-02-26 07:24:00 Along with another smartphone, Samsung recently announce the upcoming Galaxy Tab 2.0, a 10.1-inches tablet powered by Google Android 4.0 Ice Scream Sandwich. Just like of our pasts predictions, the company join the race of producing a new version of handheld and multi-touch machines with a full support of the newest mobile operating system of the giant search engine. According to report, the availability of this device will probably start few days from now and will probably land to United Kingdo [..] > read more Availability of iPad 3 will Start on March of 2012? Published on 2012-02-26 04:05:00 Smart Money gave us an idea on what we can do with our pioneering and second generation of iPad as will start to tease us by the month of March. However, for now, nobody can tell the exact release date of the iPad 3 but lots of people are already anticipating the upcoming new model since then. This might be the right time for us to join the iCloud community to store our settings and be ready for another iOS platform that can change our perceptions towards the new device. A several tips help us t [..] > read more HTC One X with NVidia Tegra 3 Dual-Core CPU Published on 2012-02-25 18:30:00 NVidia Tegra 3 dual-core processor is getting more common to the newest smartphones nowadays. We heard plenty of these mobile devices since last month and now, just like of other brands and manufacturers, HTC is not too late to bring their very own One X model. A complete specs of this Android 4.0 Ice Cream Sandwich powered phone has been leaked ahead of its anticipated appearances in World Mobile Congress in Barcelona.Here are the list of features of HTM One X coming from Full GSM:CPU: 1.5GHz N [..] > read more Get a Free Mobile Phones Binded with Contracts Published on 2012-02-25 03:40:00 Nowadays, it is hard to get a smartphone with initial high prices, right? And if you are one of those practical buyers, you probably choose to get a free handset coupled with a chance to have an applications which are also available in what we can get from its newest version. However, these mobile phones might be a budget friendly device but try hold back and check the possible outrages in the future.Here's our list of currently free mobile phones on different network provider in United States. [..] > read more Asus Zenbook UX31 Design and Prices Review Published on 2012-02-25 03:09:00 The last time I heard Asus Zenbook UX31 is on its slimmest design. However, prices varies due to its availability but in terms of budget drawbacks, the promising performance of Intel Core i5-2557M dual-core CPU stands out. It is currently available in about $800.00 to $1,100.00, a not so good option for basic computing requirements but an option for those who are looking an ultra-thin and lightweight machines. It's another Ultrabook model that can tease anyone with its thinnest design packed wit [..] > read more Facebook App for PlayStation Vita Reported Problems Published on 2012-02-25 02:09:00 Aside from knowing the 3G capability of PlayStation Vita recently, we've been stunned by the newest problems that leaved a lot of message to software developers in PSN store. According to report, a Facebook App has been pulled out due to a several errors and will just immediately force the user to close the program. Official online community of Sony has been flood with questions and reported issue aside from a social networking issue.Furthermore, if you are one of those folks asking a serious qu [..] > read more Nokia Lumia 800 is Headed to Rogers on March Published on 2012-02-25 01:44:00 Nokia Lumia 800 is now headed to Rogers on March 2, 2012 as noted by Tylus recently. However, pricing details is not yet available but it is up in either black, cyan, and magenta themed versions. Just like of its predecessors, this handset might be powered by Microsoft Windows Mango mobile operating system. Nobody can tell the exact release date but the launching will be coupled with additional important details.Full reviews of Nokia Lumia 800 is now available in Gizmodo as well in Business Insi [..] > read more ViewSonic New Line of Tablets with Android 4.0 OS Published on 2012-02-24 17:28:00 ViewSonic recently announce their new collection of tablet computers, the ViewPad G70 and E100 along with P100. The World Mobile Congress (WMC) in Barcelona becomes the right place for them to brought out their very own tablets but before of the main event, press releases and reliable sources gave us a reason to keep up with them. The Galaxy Tab of Samsung and Apple iPad will probably stunned by the newest options as competition continue to grow in regards with market shares.Both of these models [..] > read more Intel Atom D2550 is Headed to Desktop Computers Published on 2012-02-24 17:08:00 Intel is giving us a new wave of practical stuff in terms of desktop computing by adding a new brand coming from the line of Cedar Trail processor, the Atom D2550. Designed primarily for a low-cost and power-savers machine with hyperthreading support according to reports. It is a dual-core microprocessor but will work in like a quad-core in some computer's task managers. This will run on the top of 640MHz clock speed as noted by the official website of its manufacturer.Atom D2550 got a 10W TDP's [..] > read more Asus Eee Pad Transformer Prime Get a Google Android 4.0 Treatment Published on 2012-02-23 20:12:00 Asus Eee Pad Transformer Prime is the first tablet to get a Google Android 4.0 Ice Cream Sandwich treatment coming from their line of products. However, we cannot compare this model to Viewsonic ViewPad G70 but it is good to hear that the company already rolled out a new version of smart devices software. And in terms of availability and prices, this version is quite cheaper compare to the quad-core powered models. The MeMO 171 is the other option for consumers which is now available for pre-ord [..] > read more HaiPad Tablets with Google Android 4.0 Operating System Published on 2012-02-23 02:52:00 We heard this cheap tablet few months ago coming from a Chinese manufacturer. However, the price is quite difficult to explain but in terms of functionality, we can say that HaiPad is quite different to compare with the other models in the market. The company recently showed out the newest version, the possible successor of M701, the A10A10 and M10M10 model. Both of these are all powered by Google Android 4.0 Ice Cream Sandwich, a similar platform which are now available in other mobile devices [..] > read more LG Optimus 4X HD with NVidia Tegra 3 CPU Published on 2012-02-23 02:24:00 LG Optimus is not actually common but to hear a new version with a quad-core processor, it's another story we wanted to share. According to Slash Gear, the company recently announce their upcoming 4X HD model powered by NVidia Tegra 3 processor running at 1.5GHz. Unlike of its pioneering series, the newest handset was optimized to support a high-definition video playback but still considering the efficiency of its battery life. This might be the first LTE-enabled and smartphone that runs on the [..] > read more Sony is Now Rebranding Their Own Products Published on 2012-02-22 16:01:00 Just like in any common business partnership, Sony is now turning its product to a new direction without the Ericsson. They are about to go solo by the middle of this year according to report and the upcoming World Mobile Congress (WMC) in Barcelona, Spain will make it clear to all of us. We find a good tandem through their efforts to compete on the other brands but it is because probably, things is running out of they way. Right now, you can find their portal directed to and [..] > read more What is Cybersecurity Act of 2012, S. 2105 Bill? Published on 2012-02-22 15:16:00 When a very confusing details of Cybersecurity Act of 2012, S. 2105 came out to public through probably the effort of Anonymous, the underground online persona or group, a big question strikes us! United States House of Representatives and the Senate are now joining together for another counter-measure against the threats of those people and has been followed by warnings coming from the NSA. And according to our source, this might be passed by the first quarter of this year but for now, nobody c [..] > read more Asus Eee Pad MeMO 171 Tablet Got Its Own Website Published on 2012-02-22 14:49:00 Tech enthusiasts recently spotted the official page of Asus Eee Pad MeMO 171, a Google Android-powered 7-inches tablet that showed out in the last January's CES. It means, few days or weeks from now, this will become available for pre-order, right? And guess what, the teasing listed features and photo galleries of this handheld PC can really attract anyone to experience its capability.And before we can forget, here's the specs of Eee Pad MeMO 171:CPU: 1.2GHz Qualcomm 8260 (dual-core processor)RA [..] > read more Viewsonic ViewPad G70 with Android 4.0 Ice Cream Published on 2012-02-21 16:05:00 The Mobile World Congress (MWC) is about to give a great way for Viewsonic to be heard once more. It is because they are about to bring their very own ViewPad G70 tablet with outstanding support of Google Android 4.0 Ice Cream. A 7-inches model with 1024 x 600-pixels high-resolution support and a maximum density of 169ppi. However, nobody can tell the exact release date of this model but what is good about them is that, they are willing to compete in the market share which can actually affect th [..] > read more Lenovo IdeaPad U300e with Intel Core i5 CPU Published on 2012-02-21 15:10:00 A new version of Lenovo IdeaPad U series is now available for about $960.00, a 13-inches model with Intel Core i5 CPU. It is quite similar to the pioneering version in terms of thickness and lightness. The U300e is a little bit cheaper than U300S but pricier than U260. This might be good for gaming and more powerful for a simple applications. Going back to last January's CES, the company showed out a several models but with no words of the official date of release.To know more of what's inside t [..] > read more Microsoft Office Application is Coming to iPad? Published on 2012-02-21 14:47:00 Probably, if you are one of those folks asking of a Microsoft Office application for your iPad will be stunned by these rumors, right? But, the developer recently deny the speculations coming from Bits. Upon hearing this news few days ago, I immediately ask one of my colleague on the line if it is true that Bill Gates will allow his software to run on the top of their greatest rival's tablet but I ended with no words instead, he just laugh at me in return.That picture provided by "The Daily" is [..] > read more Samsung Galaxy Note 10.1 Pen-Enabled Smartphone Published on 2012-02-15 07:47:00 If Apple start their game changer iPhone before their iPad, Samsung is now probably ready to move back for another version of their tablet, the Galaxy Note 10.1. A pen-enabled smartphone packed with a stylus device to support the user touchscreen gestures. However, nobody can tell the exact thing about this mobile phone but according to Slash Gear, this might be headed to MWC 2012 few days from now.They also spotted Samsung Galaxy Note before in one of The Verge's advertisement and it is current [..] > read more ZTE Light Tab 2 Spotted and Launches in U.K. Published on 2012-02-15 07:30:00 ZTE, a Chinese-owned company recently launch their very own 7-inches Light Tab 2 powered by Google Android 2.3 Gingerbread operating system. It is currently available in Clove Technology for about 235.00-pounds. This might be an older version of Sprint's Optik tablet which start to pop-up in United States market few days ago as noted by Engadget. But of course, we cannot compare its functions without handling a piece of it at these moment.Here are the specs and important details you must to know [..] > read more AMD Radeon HD 7770 and HD 7750 GHz GPU Edition Published on 2012-02-15 06:45:00 If you are one of those video gaming fanatics, you probably choose the right graphics driver for your consoles, right? Since then, we've been following the latest Graphical Processing Unit (GPU) coming from AMD as we discover the efficiency and performance level of their products. And they are about to bring their new Radeon HD 7770 and 7750 GHz GPU edition with a full support from PCI Express 3.This can bring a new gaming experience, a more realistic graphics from its 1GHz reference clock as no [..] > read more Harris Poll's Reputation Problem of Facebook Published on 2012-02-14 20:27:00 Harris Poll says that Facebook is currently facing a reputation problem. There are about 850-million registered accounts in the giant social networking site and it is very visible for most of us already. But according to their Reputation Quotient Study, the company doesn't make its way to what they expect. And their recently study includes a very sophisticated measure which requires numerous respondents but sad to say, they don't recognize this as an existing firm.Probably, because Facebook is a [..] > read more Internet Security 2012 is a Fake Antivirus Software Published on 2012-02-14 09:51:00 The common name of the new version of this software is Internet Security. For almost 5-years, I've been monitoring this malicious program in our school computer laboratory and internet station. And the latest attack that instantly penetrate my Microsoft Windows 2003 Server comes as early of January of 2012. It is common for this application to pop-up like a regular scanner that will surprise the computer users and force them to buy a license copy or else. This must be remove immediately in our s [..] > read more Eddy Cue Received the Grammy Award for His Company Published on 2012-02-12 21:29:00 Eddy Cue is a senior vice-president for Internet Software and Services of Apple recently received the prestigious award given by the Grammy. He's been with the company for almost 15-years as noted by Slash Gear and one of the visionary member of the company to innovate the digital distribution of multimedia.According to our source, this achievement is milestone for them to enhance their future services. He speaks in front of the audience in behalf of Steve Jobs, his former legendary boss who cha [..] > read more Spark 7-Inch Tablet with Mer Linux Operating System Published on 2012-02-12 07:38:00 For the past few months of searching a good Linux-powered tablet, Spark is one of those handheld machine that really captured our attention. It is because of a video clip provided by one of KDE's developer named, Aaron Seigo. He shows how the Plasma Active works on capturing the gesture of the user. The sensitivity of its screen is quite similar to what we can get from iPad as well in Galaxy Tab and probably from other line but in terms of uniqueness, its computing platform is quite different, r [..] > read more Acer Aspire One D270 is Now Available in Sears and Adorama Published on 2012-02-12 07:21:00 Acer Aspire One D270 with Intel Atom N2600 CPU is now available in Sears as well in Adorama for pre-order. However, this netbook model is already on sale somewhere in Germany and Taiwan as noted by Ubergizmo recently and it is now probably headed to United States stores. But for now, nobody can tell the exact date of its arrival to the first consumer in American markets as noted by our source.For specs and important details you shouldn't missed, see the following list below for more:Processor: 1 [..] > read more DC Comics Revives Smallville for A Digital Edition Published on 2012-02-09 21:53:00 For almost 10-years, we've been stunned by the futuristic journey of Superman in Smallville. The CW Television Network gave us the reason to follow the adventure of Clark Kent and his fellow superheroes. And the original series is now moving towards a new version, the digital edition as the 11th season. This might be the sequence of last year's finale but scenes will never be the same again just like of what you have seen on TV.What is good about this is that, we can now embrace the power of Sup [..] > read more A New Version of Call of Duty (COD) is Coming this Year! Published on 2012-02-09 21:19:00 Upon hearing the new DLC of Modern Warfare 3 few days ago, we use to think of a new version and this is it! According to our source, there will be a new title coming this year but nobody from the gaming industry can confirm this issue aside probably from the Activision and Blizzard, right? Release date of "Overwatch" map is up this coming February 21 but still, gamers has been stunned by photo galleries and sneak peeks which start to popping out recently in YouTube.Going back to this new version [..] > read more Deep Freeze 7.0 for Windows 7 - Download a Full and Free Version Published on 2011-05-25 08:28:00 The first time I heard the all new operating system Microsoft, I've been thinking of another software that can support our school computer laboratory like of the previous version of Deep Freeze as we change to the new platform. Version 5.0 and 6.0 is > read more BearShare Version 9.0 is Now Available for Download Published on 2011-05-21 23:22:00 Experience the all new version of BearShare and be the first to rate the performance of another file sharing software available on the line. For almost three months, we've been using the version 7.0 but recently, a friend gave us the reason to shift > read more Amazon Kindle App for Windows Phone 7 is Now Available Published on 2011-01-04 21:20:00 According to latest updates in regards with Amazon Kindle Application software, it is now available for Windows Phone 7 as noted by tech enthusiasts sites recently. According to our source, they heard this application last October 2010 but now, the r > read more AMD Radeon HD 6000M Series with HD3D and EyeSpeed Published on 2011-01-04 01:52:00 The AMD recently showed out their latest series of processor which can support the common DirectX 11 support as spotted by Engadget recently. According to them, this will come in either Radeon HD 6500M and 6300M as part of their HD 6000M family of CP > read more Toshiba New Android Tablet is Up! Published on 2011-01-03 17:03:00 Guess what, the upcoming Consumer Electronic Show (CES) will be a great deal for every technology enthusiasts and right now, companies starts to shows up their very one gadgets we never heard before. Toshiba is up for their plan to launch their very > read more HTC EVO Shift 4G is Now Available for Pre-order Published on 2011-01-01 20:31:00 Amazon is the first online store that allows us to place a pre-order for HTC EVO Shift 4G as spotted by a correspondents of Engadget recently. However, we cannot totally confirm this report but it is great to share a little idea about this Android po > read more Samsung Galaxy Tab is Now Available for $499 in Verizon Published on 2011-01-01 20:25:00 The first time we heard this product before, we think the rivalry of Apple iPad and the closest competitor of tablet PC in the market. But guess what, if you are planning to get a piece of this kind of computer, we would like to share this idea in re > read more Archos 7 Home Tablet with Google Android 2.1 OS Published on 2010-12-30 20:08:00 We just heard this report from Engadget recently in regards with the upcoming new model of Archos 7 Home Tablet. While others are enjoying the current specs currently available in the market, a series of reports from the correspondents of the above m > read more Gigabyte Q2005 Booktop Netbook with Intel Atom N550 Published on 2010-12-30 19:58:00 It is great to hear that Gigabyte Q2005 Booktop netbook is up for an upgrade but we cannot confirm this report as we spotted this recently from a product page of the company. However, according to our source, this will come with Intel Atom N550, a du > read more Sharp Galapagos Tablet PC Availability is Up! Published on 2010-12-30 19:48:00 Aside from the teasing power and performance of Apple iPad, we heard that Sharp is now ready to send their very own tablet PC by this year. Netbook News reported that the company based in Japan was geared up for their new outlet and that is on the ot > read more New BlackBerry PlayBook Overview from RIM Published on 2010-12-11 20:07:00 The following video below has been shared by Mathew straight from RIM, a teasing clip of the company's upcoming BlackBerry PlayBook. It's a comparison of Apple blockbuster 11-inch iPad and guess what, both are actually running an iOS 3.2, a common pl > read more Black Friday Online Deals 2010 is Up Now! Published on 2010-11-26 15:35:00 Ohhh!.. Another year is about to close with a great stuff and guess what, it's time for you to get out of your closets now to take advantage the holiday season online deals in a great Black Friday Sale 2010 that rounds since yesterday. People are now > read more

KINDERMANN-JANSEN, Rommy Tineke (Leeuwarderweg 53, NC Wergea, NL-9005, NL) KINDERMANN, Richard Rienk (Leeuwarderweg 53, NC Wergea, NL-9005, NL) KINDERMANN-JANSEN, Rommy Tineke (Leeuwarderweg 53, NC Wergea, NL-9005, NL) The present invention relates to an adjustable frame for a window, glass or pane, or a door. Known frames for windows, glass or doors are placed in a recess in a wall. A frame is made to size for a specific recess and subsequently placed in this recess. After finishing of the wall, the windows or doors are placed in the frame. If desired, finishing edges or architraves are then arranged. This means that the recess and the frame have to be precisely adapted to each other. In addition, multiple steps are necessary for placing and finishing. The present invention has for its object to provide a frame which can be placed in a more efficient manner. This object is achieved with the adjustable frame according to the invention, the frame comprising: a first frame part fixable to a wall; a second frame part which can be connected to the first frame part and which can be positioned in the depth in the frame relative to the first frame part, wherein the second frame part is provided with a rebate such that a window, glass/pane or door, irrespective of the depth of the frame, can be mounted at a fixed distance relative to a wall plane. Providing a first and a second frame part which can be positioned relative to each other achieves that the frame according to the invention can be placed substantially irrespective of the depth of the recess in a wall. The depth of such a recess substantially corresponds to the thickness of this wall. This means that the adjustable frame need be made taking only into account the height and the width, or the opening plane, of the recess in the wall. The first and second frame parts can herein be mutually connected in order to obtain a rigid whole and thereby hold the window, door and/or glass in firm manner in the frame. The second frame part is provided with a rebate such that a window or door for placing can be mounted in the frame at a fixed distance relative to a wall plane. This mounting is such that this distance at which a window, pane or door is placed in the adjustable frame according to the invention does not depend on the depth of the frame. This achieves that a window, pane or door for placing is placed at a guaranteed fixed distance from the wall plane without the depth of the recess or the thickness of the wall being a factor here. This is relevant for instance for the placing of an outside door in an outside wall which has to be provided in the recess at a fixed distance from the outside wall plane. By providing the rebate in the second frame part such a rebate can be provided beforehand without prior knowledge of the dimensions of the relevant recess. The adjustable frame according to the invention is preferably manufactured from wood. Most preferably the frame is manufactured from rigid wood and, therefore, not from plywood, laminated wood etc. It is however also a possibility to provide the adjustable frame in other materials, such as for instance aluminium and plastic. In an advantageous preferred embodiment according to the present invention the second frame part is provided with a first recess for placing of the second frame part over the first frame part. Providing a first recess in the second frame part achieves that the second frame part is slidable relative to the first frame part. This sliding is such that on the visible side of the frame, i.e. on the side where the window, the pane or the door is provided, the second frame part can conceal from view the mounting of the first frame part on the wall. Also hereby achieved is that there are no recesses or edges between the first and the second frame part in the visible surface of the frame. Also hereby realized is a good supporting surface between the first and second frame part with which a good connection between the first and second frame part is possible. In an advantageous preferred embodiment according to the present invention the second frame part is provided with a second recess which, together with the first recess, is complementary to the form of the first frame part. By providing a second recess a first frame part with a corresponding, complementary form can be positioned relative to the second frame part. Hereby achieved is that, if the main dimensions of the adjustable frame further remain the same, there is more material, such as wood, present at the most critical points of the frame. Such a critical point is formed particularly at the position of the rebate where material is removed from the second frame part. The adjustable frame hereby becomes stronger overall. The fixing of the second frame part relative to the first frame part further becomes simpler and it is also simpler to realize the mutual fixing in two positions at different depths in the opening. As an additional advantage, it is also made simpler here to realize a concealed mounting of the first frame part on the wall. A further additional effect of providing two recesses is that the second frame part can be provided in a non-tiltable manner relative to the first frame part. This has great advantages in practice, particularly during placing, since a frame can hereby be placed in a more accurate manner. In addition to providing a second recess, it is also possible according to the invention to provide further additional recesses. In a further advantageous preferred embodiment according to the present invention the recess in the second frame part is provided with an oblique corner, and the complementary corner of the first frame part is chamfered in corresponding manner. Substantially omitting right angles in the recess, i.e. angles of 90°, achieves that more material can be provided at the most critical points of the frame. At the same main dimensions of the frame a stronger frame is hereby realized. In a further advantageous preferred embodiment according to the present invention a finishing edge is provided on at least one of the first and second frame parts . An efficient placing of the frame is realized by providing the finishing edge, or architrave, in integral manner with at least one of the first and second frame parts. Both frame parts are preferably provided beforehand in an integral manner with such an architrave. Preferably, the frame comprises of at most two frame parts . It is hereby possible to place the frame in its entirety consisting of preferably only a first and a second frame part. This means that it is possible to dispense with separate placing of the architraves. This results in a more efficient placing of a frame. The number of components is hereby also reduced. When the architrave is provided in integral manner with the frame parts, it is not necessary to fix such architraves to the wall surface, i.e. in view. This has a certain aesthetic advantage. In addition, operations for concealing such a fixing to some extent from view are hereby avoided. Providing an architrave in integral manner further has the additional advantage that it can for instance be placed round tiles and/or plasterwork. A wall with recess can hereby be better finished without an aesthetically less attractive result being achieved at the join between wall and frame. It is also the case here that, for instance in the case of tiles, there will be less cracking of grouting. In a further advantageous preferred embodiment according to the present invention the depth of the adjustable frame is adjustable over at least 15 mm, and preferably over about 25 mm. A frame that is adjustable over a distance of at least 15 mm, i.e. that a variation in the depth of 15 mm of a recess in which the frame is provided can be readily compensated using one and the same frame, works highly efficiently in use. The adjustable frame is preferably adjustable over at least 25 mm in the depth. An even greater variation in depth of the recess in which the frame is placed can hereby be compensated. It is also still possible, in the case of such a large (possible) displacement of the frame parts relative to each other, to connect these two frame parts to each other in sufficiently firm manner so as to form a rigid whole. A further additional advantage of providing a 25 mm bridging option is that it is hereby possible to suffice in simple manner with a limited number of embodiments in order to compensate a complete range of possible dimensions. Usual dimensions for frames are for instance 90 x 67 mm, another size being 114 x 67 mm. The first dimension relates here to the depth of the frame. By providing 25 mm of clearance it is possible to bridge the whole intervening range by providing for instance two embodiments having substantially the above stated dimensions. This limits the number of components it is necessary to stock. This will for instance reduce storage costs, and possibly also errors or misunderstandings in respect of the different embodiments. In addition, it is also simpler to manufacture a frame in efficient and more rapid manner. It is also possible to produce more frames and frame parts for stock purposes. If desired, it is also a possibility according to the invention, making use for instance of said standard or usual dimensions, to apply widening pieces and/or lengthening parts. A first frame part can for instance hereby be lengthened such that the whole depth of an opening can still be bridged using the two frame parts . In a further advantageous preferred embodiment according to the present invention the frame is further provided with height adjustment means and width adjustment means . Providing adjusting means for the height and width makes it possible to adapt the adjustable frame according to the invention to the recess in the depth and, in addition, to the height and width of such a recess. A universally adjustable frame is hereby obtained which can be placed in a wide range of recesses. An additional advantage hereof is that a DIY adjustable frame is realized with which a frame can be placed in relatively simple manner in any type of recess . In a further advantageous preferred embodiment according to the present invention the first frame part is provided with a graduated marking for the purpose of substantially straight positioning of a second frame part. Providing a graduated marking achieves that the second frame part can be placed in straight manner relative to the first frame part. This avoids the two frame parts being placed askew relative to each other. A further additional advantage of providing such a graduated marking is that it is possible to dispense with further aids or auxiliary tools during placing of the two frame parts. This renders placing of the frame according to the invention more effective . In a further advantageous preferred embodiment according to the present invention the width, or thickness, of the second frame part for the rebate is in the range of 14-22 millimetres, preferably in the range of 15-21 millimetres, and most preferably is about 18 millimetres. Providing a second frame part with a width for the rebate in the range of 15-21 millimeters provides sufficient strength and robustness for the frame when used in relation with a door. Preferably, rigid wood is provided instead of plywood or laminated wood, or the like. A width of about 18 millimetres is advantageous especially when replacing metal frames, for example. In general metal frames are made from steel or aluminium. These frames are usually smaller, or at least provided in a smaller sized opening or rebate in the wall. Replacing metal frames with conventional wooden frames requires either the use of smaller sized doors and/or enlarging the opening in the wall before assembling the wooden frame thereby requiring construction work. Especially a width of 18 millimetres is advantageous as this width enables the continued use of the same door width without requiring additional construction work. As an illustrative example an opening in a wall is provided with a width of 980 millimetres. Using metal frames enables the use of a door width of 930 millimetres. When using a conventional wooden frame this would only enable the use of a smaller door width. Using the frame according to the present invention requires a 5 millimetres play between the wall and the frame parts on both sides of the opening, 18 millimetres of wood of the frame part on both sides of the opening, 2 millimetres of play on both sides of the opening for allowing the door to open and close, and a door width of 930 millimetres. This enables the use of the same width for a door in an opening of 980 millimetres in a wall irrespective of the material used for the frame. In a further advantageous preferred embodiment according to the present invention the frame further comprises a jaw or clamp for clamping the first frame part together with the second frame part around a wall part. By providing a jaw or clamp on or in the frame parts a robust frame is achieved. Preferably, the second frame part is provided with the jaw or clamp and positioned in the wall opening. Next, the first frame part is positioned in the opening between the wall and the first frame part and the jaw or clamp connects the frame parts. Preferably, the jaw or clamp is integrally provided with at least the first frame part . In a further advantageous preferred embodiment according to the present invention the jaw or clamp is provided on the side of the frame in use directed to the wall, wherein the frame is provided with hinges in use directed to the opening, and wherein the hinges and the jaw or clamp are connected by connecting means. By providing the jaw or clamp at about the same height as compared to a hinge for a door, and connecting these by a pen, bolt, bus or the like a stable and robust connection between the hinge and the wall is achieved. In fact, a door that is arranged in connection with the hinge is at least partly supported by the wall in stead of only by the frame itself. This configuration of jaw or clamp with a hinge is especially advantageous when using a width of about 18 millimetres of wood in the second frame part for the rebate. The preferably integrated jaw of clamp requires about 9 millimetres of the 18 millimetres wood available. With a hinge size of about 3 millimetres this requires the connecting means to bridge the remaining 6 millimetres. The connection achieves an improved robustness for the frame, especially when provided with a door. In a further advantageous preferred embodiment according to the present invention a serrated strip or strip with protrusions is provided for engaging a frame part. A strip is preferably provided on a frame part, or alternatively on the wall, before assembling the frame. The strip is serrated and/or provided with protrusions, teeth, or the like. After the second frame part is positioned the first frame part is positioned in the opening between the wall and the second frame part. The protrusions, teeth, or the like on the strip are shaped such that the first frame part can be pushed in the opening and, at the same time, prevents the first frame part from being removed from the opening. Preferably, the strip is provided together with the jaw or clamp mentioned above to achieve a robust frame. The invention further relates to a building provided with a frame according to the invention. The same effects and advantages as described in respect of the frame also apply for such a building. The invention also relates to a method for placing an adjustable frame for a door, a pane or a window, the method comprising the steps of: providing a wall with a rebate for the frame; finishing the wall; and after finishing of the wall, placing the frame according to one or more of the foregoing claims and subsequently hanging the door or the window and/or placing the pane. The same effects and advantages as those described in respect of the frame also apply for such a method. The number of operations for placing the frame, and the associated hanging of for instance a door, are reduced using the method according to the present invention. When conventional frames are used, a construction crew arrives to place the frame after a recess has been provided in the wall. After finishing of the wall in which the recess with the conventional frame is provided, the same construction crew returns a second time to hang a door. Placing of the frame before finishing the wall is necessary in order to adapt the finishing to the size of the frame. Hanging a door generally takes place as one of the final steps during a building or renovation project. A variation in the depth of the recess in the wall in which the frame has to be placed can be readily compensated by providing the adjustable frame according to the present invention. This has the advantage that the finishing of the wall can take place before the frame has to be placed. The construction crew for the frames need hereby only come to the building site once in order to place the frames and simultaneously hang for instance the doors . In a further advantageous preferred embodiment according to the present invention the cutting work i.e. the recesses for the purpose of hinges, lock plate and so on, and preferably also the holes required for placing of the frame, is provided beforehand. Pre-drilling of the frame allows more efficient placing thereof. It is thus possible to reduce the fitting time for a conventional frame, which amounts to an hour and a half to two hours, to about fifteen to forty minutes for the same recess with a frame according to the present invention. In advantageous manner the required hinges are here preferably also provided on the frame beforehand. Placing of the adjustable frame according to the present invention is hereby further simplified at the construction site. In a further advantageous preferred embodiment according to the present invention the above method is used for replacing a metal frame by a wooden frame as described above for a door, the door having a certain width, the method comprising the steps of: - removing the metal frame from the rebate in the wall; - preparing the new frame; and - placing the new frame in the same rebate for a door having the same width. By replacing a metal frame with a wooden frame according to the present invention, as already explained above, the door width can be maintained. Furthermore, the assembly of the frame according to the present invention can be performed efficiently thereby minimizing the amount of labor significantly. In addition, the number of steps for the assembly is reduced thereby minimizing transportation costs, traveling time of the workmen etc. Further advantages, features and details of the invention are elucidated on the basis of preferred embodiments thereof, wherein reference is made to the accompanying drawings, in which: Figure 1 shows a view of a wall with a frame according to the invention; Figure 2 shows an embodiment of the frame according to the invention; Figure 3 shows an alternative embodiment of the frame according to the invention; Figure 4 shows a further alternative embodiment of the frame according to the invention; Figure 5 A-C shows a detail of the jaw or clamp used in the frame of figure 4; and Figure 6 shows a detail of an upper frame part. A frame 2 (figure 1) with a door 3 is placed in a wall 4 of a building. In the shown embodiment frame 2 provided in a wall 4 (figure 2) comprises a first frame part 6 and a second frame part 8. First frame part 6 is provided with a decorative edge or architrave 10 and a basic part 12 situated in the opening of wall 4. Second frame part 8 is provided with a decorative edge or architrave 14, a basic part 16 and an overlapping part 17. First and second frame parts 6, 8 are displaceable relative to each other in a direction indicated with arrow A. To this end basic part 12 slides in a recess 18 of overlapping part 17. Recess 18 is enclosed by wall 4, the outer end of basic part 12, overlapping part 17 of basic part 8 and the outer end of basic part 16 of second frame part 8. At the transition between basic part 16 and overlapping part 17 a corner 20 is provided in recess 18 between the two parts 16, 17. Basic part 12 of frame part 6 is provided with a complementary chamfering 22 so that the recess can be completely closed. By providing a corner 20 on second frame part 8 more material is provided at the transition between basic part 16 and overlapping part 17, so that second frame part 8 becomes stronger . In the shown embodiment decorative edge 10 has a width in the plane of wall 4 of about 37 mm. The depth of first frame part 6 amounts to 76 mm. The thickness of the first frame part amounts to about 22 mm for the basic part 12 thereof. The thickness of the second frame part amounts to about 67 mm, while the depth thereof amounts to about 114 mm. In the shown embodiment a variable depth of about 55 mm can be bridged using frame parts 6, 8. In the shown embodiment a part or strip of material of about 17 mm wide by 38 mm deep is removed for the purpose of a rebate. Decorative edge 14 has an overlap of about 15 mm with wall 4 in the plane thereof. Other dimensions are of course possible. It is thus possible for instance to provide a less wide first frame part 6 of for instance 15 mm. Frame parts 6, 8 are connected to wall 4 with plugs 5,17 and screws 7,15. The head and jamb of frame 2 are preferably connected to each other at an angle of 45 degrees using a dowel connection. The dowel used in the shown embodiment has a diameter of 8 or 10 mm and a length of respectively 40 or 50 mm. If desired, use can further be made of gluing of the different parts. Other dimensions for the dowel connection are also possible. Depending for instance on, among other factors, the amount of wood available in frame 2, a dowel of 8 mm diameter and a length of 20 mm is possible. Alternatively, it is possible to connect the head and jamb to each other at an angle of about 90 degrees using a so-called contra-connection, or a mortise and tenon joint. In a second embodiment a frame 24 (figure 3) placed in a recess in a wall 26 has a first frame part 28 and a second frame part 30. First frame part 28 is provided with a decorative edge or architrave 32, a first basic part 34 and a second basic part 36. Second frame part 30 is provided with a decorative edge or architrave 38, a basic part 40, a first overlap 42 and a second overlap 44. In this embodiment frame 24 has a first recess 46 and a second recess 48. In the shown embodiment a corner 50 and a corresponding chamfering 52 are once again provided to increase the strength of frame 24. Provided in the shown embodiment between wall 26 and first frame part 28 is a cavity 54 which is filled wholly or partially with filling material 56 for the purpose of for instance damping and/or levelling. First and second frame parts 28, 30 are mutually connected in the shown embodiment using screws 58, 60. The recesses required in second frame part 30 can here be pre-drilled. A third screw 62 can optionally be provided to connect second frame part 30 to wall 26. In the rebate in second frame part 30 a hinge 64 can be provided which in the shown embodiment also conceals from view the optionally placed screw 62. Second frame part 30 can move in depth direction in the direction indicated with arrow B. During placing of first frame part 28, frame part 28 is placed in the recess in wall 26 in the direction of arrow C. In the shown embodiment decorative edge 32 has a width of about 40 mm and a depth of about 90 mm. Second basic part 36 of first frame part 24 has a depth of about 40 mm. The width of recess 48 amounts to about 10 mm. The thickness of the shown decorative edge 32 amounts to about 10 mm. First recess 46 has a width of about 15 mm. Decorative edge 38 of second frame part 30 likewise has a thickness of about 10 mm and a width of about 50 mm. The width of the whole second frame part 30 amounts to about 67 mm. The rebate provided in second frame part 30 has a depth of about 49 mm and a width of about 17 mm. The depth of the second overlapping part amounts to about 96 mm on the visible side. Other dimensions are of course possible. A frame of 114 x 90 is hereby also possible in addition to a frame of 114 x 67. Using an overlap of about 25 mm overall it is therefore possible to bridge the difference in depth between the two embodiments of 23 mm. This means that with two standard frame sizes the whole occurring range can in practice be compensated. Other dimensioning is of course possible. It is thus possible for instance to provide first recess 46 with a width of for instance 12 mm. In the manufacture of frames 2, 24 use is preferably made of a wooden material in which the recesses 18, 46, 48 with optional corners 20, 50 and recesses 22, 52 are provided. A second frame part 8, 30 with a matching rebate is also provided. Decorative edges 10, 14, 32, 38 are preferably provided here in integral manner. Frame parts 34, 40 are connected to wall 26 with plugs 53, 63 and screws 51, 62, and mutually connected with screws 58, 60. During placing of a frame 2, 24 use is preferably made of an already fully finished wall 4, 26. In the first embodiment (figure 2), following finishing, frame part 8 is first placed in the opening in wall 4 such that decorative edge 14 lies against the visible surface of wall 4. Second frame part 6 is then pushed, from the other side of the opening in wall 4, in the direction of arrow A, over frame part 8. In the second embodiment (figure 3), following finishing, first frame part 28 is first placed in the opening in wall 26 such that decorative edge 32 lies against the visible surface of wall 26. Frame part 30 is then pushed, from the other side of the opening in wall 26, in the direction of arrow B over frame part 28. Both frame parts 6, 8, 28, 30 are subsequently connected to each other, if applicable. Frame 2, 24 is now placed on already finished walls 4, 26. This means that immediately after placing of frame 2, 24 an optional door or window can be hung and/or placed in frame 2, 24. An alternative embodiment a frame 66 (figure 4) comprises a first frame part 68 and a second frame part 70 that are provided at or around a wall 72. In the illustrated embodiment wall 72 is covered with a plaster layer 74. Frame 66 is positioned in opening 76. A door 78 is connected via hinge 80 to frame 66. In the illustrated embodiment the size and shape of frame parts 68, 70 correspond to the size and shape of frame parts 6, 8. Frame part 70 is provided with a recess 82 and a corner 84. On frame part 70 is located a strip 86 provided with teeth or protrusions 88. Strip 86 is made of spring-steel. Frame parts 68, 70 are integrally provided with decorative edges or architraves 90. In the illustrated embodiment distance 92 corresponds to the dimensions of a metal frame that was provided in opening 76 before being replaced by the wooden frame 66 according to the illustrated embodiment. Architraves 90 cover the entire distance 92 such that no further finishing of wall 72 is required after having placed frame 66. The thickness of architraves 90 is about 16 millimetres. Between wall 72 and second frame part 70 is provided an opening 94 of about 5 millimetres. Distance 96 is the thickness of frame part 70 relating to rebate 98. In the illustrated embodiment distance 96 is about 18 millimetres. Between frame part 70 and door 78 a play 100 of about 2 millimetres is provided enabling opening and closing of door 78. The width of door 78 is about 930 millimetres. This covers the entire width of opening 76 of about 980 millimetres. The width 102 of architrave 90 is about 50 millimetres. In the illustrated embodiment the depth 104 of frame part 70 is about 90 millimetres. The width 106 of the protruding part 108 is about 17 millimetres. This leads to a clearance 110 of about 900 millimetres (clearance of the frame) . These dimensions and there mutual relation provide both a robust frame 66 and enable replacing a metal frame by a wooden frame 66 without requiring constructional work on wall 72 and/or door 78, while still providing the same door width. It will be understood that other sizes are possible depending on the dimensions of opening 76, for example. Jaw 112 connects frame parts 70 and provides a robust connection with wall 72. Frame parts 68, 70 are provided with appropriate recesses for jaw 112. In the illustrated embodiment jaw 112 is connected to hinge 80 by connecting pen or screw 111. In the illustrated embodiment frame part 70 is provided with jaw 112 (figure 5 A-C) by providing a first part 114 with clamping part 113 of jaw 112 in frame part 70 and a second part 116 with clamping part 115 to be arranged in first frame part 68. Jaw parts 114, 116 are assembled together with bolt 118 using tool 120. In the illustrated embodiment bushing 117 is welded to jaw part 116 such that part 116 can be slided or provided around bolt 118. Bolt 118 is arranged in pipe or element 122 provided with an inner thread. Next, frame part 68 is positioned. The inner thread in pipe 122 is provided over a length of 20 mm, for example. Frame part 116 is provided with a recess 124 for a strip 126. Flange or tongue 127 maintains second part 116 and bolt 118 in position to achieve a firm and robust frame 66. The two strips 126 are provided with spot welds 128 to connect strips 126 to frame part 116. Frame part 129 is provided with recesses 129 for guiding strips 126. Recesses 129 prevent a rotation of frame part 116 when arranging jaw 112 around wall 72. Part 114 is provided with holes 130 to enable mounting part 114 to frame part 70. Furthermore, part 114 is provided with threaded openings 132 for arranging hinge 80 to part 114, for example by using screw or pen 111 (figure 4) . In the illustrated embodiment the length 134 of part 114 is about 88 mm, the length 136 of clamping parts 113, 115 is about 44 mm, and the total width 138 of the adjustable jaw 112 is about 90 mm and is adjustable in the range of 70-130 mm. This enables a modular approach for jaw 112 as it can be used for a range of frame sizes. It will be understood that other sizes can also be used depending on the opening 76, for example. In the illustrated embodiment providing frame 66 requires a similar order of steps as compared to frame 2 (figure 2) . Specific steps will be described next in relation to a situation wherein a (metal) frame needs to be replaced. When replacing a (metal) frame first the old frame and door have to be removed. For a skilled workman this would take about 5-10 minutes. After checking opening 76 frame 66 can be assembled. In a second step that will take the skilled workman about 5-10 minutes frame 66 is being prepared. First and second frame parts 68, 70 are put together by connecting the elements using a dowel connection using dowels with a diameter of 8 millimetres, for example. The head and jamb of frame parts 68, 70 are connected using 4x60 type screws. After position frame part 70 push or hammer frame part 68 in the opening between wall 72 and second frame part 70, preferably starting from the head on the side with the hinges, and connect the parts 68,70 using appropriate screws. Position hinges 80 and place door 78. Holes for the screws can be covered with wooden pieces. Preferably, architraves 90 are integrally provided with frame parts 68, 70. In the illustrated embodiment there are provided three hinges 80. In addition, there are provided three jaws 112 on each side of frame 66, so in total six jaws 112. It will be understood that other connecting means and other sizes may be appropriate depending on availability, dimensions etc. When placing a frame 66 in a new opening 76, such as in a new building so not replacing old frames, there is an important beneficial effect. When designing the opening 76 it is not required to choose first for either a metal or a wooden frame. This decision can be made afterwards. This is relevant for newly built houses, for example. It will be understood that features of the embodiments discussed above can be combined to achieve the corresponding effect thereof also for the other embodiment. As an example, the jaw illustrated in figure 4 can be used in the embodiment with a frame part comprising two recesses as illustrated in figure 2. Other combinations of features are also possible. In addition, it will be understood that sizes mentioned in relation to the illustrated embodiments are examples and other sizes are possible. In an advantageous embodiment of the present invention three adjustable frame types suffice to handle the relevant situations that one encounters in practical circumstances. The 70/90 frame is intended for walls with a thickness between 70 and 90 millimetres, the 90/110 frame for a thickness between 90 and 110 millimetres, and the 110/130 frame for a thickness between 110 and 130 millimetres. For the respective frame part this leads to a width of 42, 62 and 82 millimetres, respectively. In a further embodiment a head 140 (figure 6) a first set of openings 142 is provided for engagement with the jamb. Further sets of openings 144 are provided at a distance of preferably 50 millimetres. Depending on the desired length of head 140, this head 140 is cut at the appropriate spot. The present invention is by no means limited to the above described preferred embodiments thereof. The rights sought are defined by the following claims, within the scope of which many modifications can be envisaged. One possibility is thus to combine diverse components or parts of frame 2, 24 with each other. It is also a possibility to provide diverse sizes of frame 2, 24 according to the invention. It is also possible according to the invention to adapt the depth dimension of frame 2, 24 to the depth of the opening defined by the thickness of wall 4, 26. For this purpose basic part 34 of frame part 28 can for instance be lengthened relative to the above stated standard dimensions. It is possible to realize this lengthening with a widening piece with the same form of the recess. If desired, the widening piece can be widened still further by using for instance a lengthening part with which the overlap between the widening piece and basic part 34 is lengthened. In this example the lengthening part is hereby situated in the visible surface of frame 2, 24. An even greater flexibility of the frame according to the invention is hereby obtained.

JENTSCH, Michael (Senoko Way 25, Singapore 7, 75804, SG) The present invention relates to the field of constructing cast structures using temporary formwork. In particular, but not exclusively, the invention relates to formwork climbers used for casting vertical or inclined concrete structures. Formwork, also known as shuttering, is a temporary retaining structure erected to define and support a volume which is to be filled with a casting material such as concrete. A formwork climber is a supporting structure which bears the load of the formwork and the concrete and which transfers this load to the portion of the structure which has already been cast. In this way a high concrete wall, for example, can be cast without the need for scaffolding extending the full height of the wall; each new vertical section of wall can be cast on top of the previously cast section using a section of formwork which extends the height of the section being cast, and the formwork is supported by brackets mounted on the section of wall already cast. In the case of a free-standing wall, two separate formwork climbers are usually needed, one for each face of the wall, with opposing formwork separated by the thickness of the wall to be cast. In some cases, one formwork climber is equipped with means for supporting the formwork on both sides of the structure being cast (an example of such an arrangement is the so-called gallows-type climber). In either case, a series of adjacent climbers will usually be needed to provide formwork along the full length of the wall being cast. Formwork climbers are successively raised and secured to the structure, then raised and secured again. Lifting of the formwork climbers can be by means of a crane, or jacks, for example. Some climbers comprise built-in lifting gear which can be used to, for example, climb up a set of rails attached to the structure being cast. Formwork can be shaped and arranged to create many varied shapes of structure - flat vertical surfaces, inclined surfaces, curved (convex or concave) surfaces, with the formwork being constructed in sections, each section supported by a set of two or more brackets designed to be fixed directly or indirectly to the previously cast sections. In some instances, the climber may be mounted on rails which are secured to the previously cast section(s) of wall. In this patent application, a vertical wall is used by way of example. However, the invention described herein is also explicitly intended for casting inclined structures, or other structures with faces which are not strictly vertical in the narrowest meaning of the word. For this reason the terms "vertical" and "substantially vertical" when used in this description and the attached claims, are not intended to define a strict orientation relative to gravity. Rather, these terms should be understood to mean "vertically extending" in its most general sense, and to include all manner of inclined, curved, planar, continuous, discontinuous or irregularly-shaped surfaces. Similarly, "horizontal" is used to mean "horizontally extending", and is not intended to imply a strict definition of a particular orientation relative to the Earth's gravitational field. European patent application EP0064183 discloses a formwork climber which can be secured to the previously cast wall section. The climber of EP0064183 incorporates a mechanism for retracting the formwork away from the newly-cast wall surface, and supports a working platform which provides access for construction personnel. Existing formwork climbers, therefore, are adequate for casting a variety of structures having substantially planar surfaces. Some constructions, however, may require walls which incorporate portions whose surfaces cannot be cast by simply moving the formwork up in substantially the same plane. For example, walls for structures having a round or elliptical floorplan, such as a containment tank for gases or liquids, will often be designed with one or more reinforced concrete ring portions cast contiguously with the conventional portions of the wall, and with a ring-beam at the top of the wall. Post-tensioned reinforced concrete rings and ring beams may be incorporated where the wall on its own is not sufficiently strong in tension to retain radial outward forces on the wall. Such outward forces might be radial forces due to pressure from liquid stored inside a containment tank, for example, or due to the load of a domed roof. Incorporating a ring beam into a wall usually involves creating a significantly thicker portion of the wall, often at or near the top of the wall, and running around the circumference of a round, elliptical or otherwise curved construction. The thickness of the beam will depend on the amount of tension which is required in the post-tensioning tendons arranged within the beam. Prior art methods of constructing such ring-beams, or similarly protruding or thickened portions, have relied on using standard formwork climbers for the main, substantially planar portions of the wall, and then a separate set of soffit formwork and supporting brackets for the wall-ring and ring-beam portions. In the case of a containment tank having a ring beam at the top of its main containing wall, for example, the wall is first cast using formwork climbers, up to the lower edge of the ring beam. Special fixing points are then cast into the top section of the wall, and these fixing points are subsequently used to mount additional brackets for the ring-beam soffit formwork. The part of the ring-beam which is directly above the wall will be supported by the wall. However, part of the ring-beam protrudes outwardly from the plane of the wall, and the weight of this part must be supported entirely by the additional formwork brackets. Once the top section of the standard wall part is cast, the formwork climbers are moved outwards to form the vertical surface of the ring-beam or wall-ring portion, and the additional brackets and soffit formwork for the ring beam are installed. The ring-beam brackets are mounted on the special fixing points cast into the top section of wall, and the soffit formwork is fitted on to the additional brackets. Coarse positioning of the soffit formwork height is determined by the position of the fixing points and the brackets. Fine adjustment of the formwork height is performed using wedges between the formwork and the brackets. Opposed wedges are usually used. The system of the prior art employs many separate parts, some of which must be custom-made for each construction. Erection and dismantling of the climber for the wall construction, followed by erection and dismantling of the ring-beam formwork for the overhanging portion(s), is time-consuming and labour-intensive, and requires more fixing points to be provided in the concrete. Each fixing point represents a point of relative weakness in the structure. It also requires frequent use of lifting equipment, such as a crane, which could be performing other tasks on the site. The object of the present invention is thus to reduce the time and labour required to erect and dismantle the formwork for a cast structure having an overhanging part. A second object is to reduce the amount of equipment which is necessary for such a construction. A third object is to reduce the number of potential weak points in the structure. A fourth object is to reduce the use of lifting equipment required during the casting process. These and other objects are satisfied by the invention, which envisages a formwork climber apparatus formwork climber apparatus comprising a first formwork member for delimiting a next section of the wall region to be cast, supporting means for securing the formwork climber apparatus to an already-cast section of the wall region such that the supporting means supports the first formwork member during each casting step, the formwork climber apparatus also comprising first formwork member positioning means for securing the first formwork member in a first position, in which the first formwork member delimits a next section of the wall region to be cast, or in a second position, in which the first formwork member delimits the protruding region to be cast, the supporting means is adapted to support the first formwork member in either of the first and second positions, and the supporting means is further adapted to support a second formwork member, the second formwork member being for delimiting the transition region during casting of the protruding region of the structure. Having vertical formwork and horizontal formwork on the same formwork climber enables the casting of virtually any shape of wall structure, including walls with overhanging portions. According to an embodiment of the formwork climber apparatus of the invention, first adjustment means are provided for adjusting a vertical position and/or an orientation angle of the second formwork member relative to the supporting means. This feature means that the vertical positioning of the climber brackets is less critical, since any discrepancies can be compensated for. It also allows a precise positioning of the horizontal formwork, and the alignment of adjacent formwork elements, thus avoiding undesirable steps between neighbouring parts of the transition region of the structure. According to a further embodiment of the formwork climber apparatus of the invention, second adjustment means are provided for adjusting, relative to the supporting means, a vertical position and/or an orientation angle of the first formwork member. Similar to the first adjustment means this feature allows a precise positioning of the vertical formwork, and the alignment of adjacent formwork elements, thus avoiding undesirable steps between neighbouring parts of the wall and/or protruding regions of the structure. According to a further embodiment of the formwork climber apparatus of the invention, first formwork retraction means are provided for positioning the first formwork member in a third position, horizontally displaced from the surface of the region being cast, such that the first formwork can be prepared before casting and/or treated after casting. This feature allows the formwork to be moved away from the casting area and thereby afford easy access to the surface of the formwork for cleaning or preparation. According to a further embodiment of the formwork climber apparatus of the invention, the second formwork member, the first adjustment means and/or the first formwork retraction means are adapted such that, during the casting of the wall region, the second formwork member can be positioned such that it does not obstruct any repositioning of the first formwork member between its first, second and third positions. Thus the horizontal, soffit formwork may be kept in position, but retracted out of the way during the casting of the conventional vertical wall sections, thereby avoiding the need to install the soffit formwork in a separate preparation operation before casting the protruding portion of the structure. Alternatively, the second formwork member may be removed altogether during any casting operations which only require the use of the first formwork member. According to a further embodiment of the formwork climber apparatus of the invention, it comprises two or more bracket elements, each bracket element being secured to an already-cast section of the wall region by means of a fastening assembly comprising a threaded bolt element and a cast- in element, the cast-in element being removably castable into the structure. The use of a removable cast-in anchoring element allows the recovery and re-use of these potentially costly elements. According to a further embodiment of the formwork climber apparatus of the invention, the threaded bolt element comprises a bolt head having a load-bearing face which is rounded and/or chamfered. The rounding or chamfering on the inside of the bolt head allows an angled orientation of the bracket, while maintaining evenly distributed load support by the bolt. According to a further embodiment of the formwork climber apparatus of the invention, the cast-in element has a substantially conical form, and the cast-in element is provided with a flared load-transferring shoulder near an end of the cast-in element which faces out from the section in which the cast-in element is cast. The flared form improves the load transfer into the concrete. The present invention also envisages a method method of the invention comprises a first step of securing a formwork climber apparatus to an already-cast section of the wall region of the structure, the formwork climber apparatus comprising a first, substantially vertical formwork member for delimiting a next-to-be-cast section of the wall region or a next-to-be-cast section of the protruding region of the structure, the formwork climber apparatus also comprising a second, substantially horizontal formwork member for delimiting the next-to-be-cast section of the protruding region of the structure. The method also comprises a second step of, while the formwork climber apparatus is fixed to the already- cast section of the wall region, casting the protruding region of the structure using the first formwork member to delimit the protruding region and the second formwork member to delimit the transition region. The use of a formwork climber whose vertical formwork member is capable of being used for casting either the conventional wall sections or the protruding (eg wall-ring or ring- beam) sections allows the same formwork climber to be used for the whole construction, without dismantling and replacing the climber during construction. According to an embodiment of the invention, the method comprises the step of adjusting a vertical position and/or an orientation angle of the second formwork member. This allows a precise positioning of the vertical formwork, and the alignment of adjacent vertical formwork elements, thus avoiding undesirable steps between neighbouring parts of the wall and/or protruding regions of the structure. According to an embodiment of the invention, the method comprises the step of adjusting a vertical position and/or an orientation angle of the first formwork member. This allows a precise positioning of the horizontal formwork, and the alignment of adjacent horizontal formwork elements, thus avoiding undesirable steps between neighbouring parts of the underside of the protruding regions of the structure. According to an embodiment of the invention, the method comprises the step of adjusting the horizontal distance between the first formwork member and the vertically extending surface of the wall region of the structure. This allows positioning of the formwork where it is required for casting. According to an embodiment of the invention, the method comprises the step of retracting the first formwork member to a position, horizontally displaced from the surface of the region being cast, such that the first formwork can be prepared before casting and/or treated after casting. This allows the vertical formwork to be moved away from the casting zone so that the formwork and the cast surface of the concrete can be cleaned and/or prepared. According to an embodiment of the invention, the method comprises the step of using the formwork climber apparatus to cast one or more regions of the wall region of the structure, with the second formwork member being positioned such that it does not obstruct any repositioning of the first formwork member towards or away from the vertically extending surface of the structure. Thus the horizontal, soffit formwork can be kept mounted on the climber, but retracted to an out-of-the way position during the casting of the conventional wall sections, or any operations where the second formwork member is not required, thereby avoiding the need to install the soffit formwork in a separate preparation operation before casting the protruding portion of the structure. Alternatively, the second formwork member may be removed altogether during such operations. According to another embodiment of the method of the invention, successive casting steps comprise installing anchor assemblies in the section being cast, for subsequently supporting the formwork climber apparatus for casting the next-to-be-cast section, and in which the anchor assemblies are of a first load bearing capacity if the next-to-be-cast section does not protrude relative to the section being cast, or of a second load-bearing capacity if the next-to-be-cast section does protrude relative to the section being cast, the second load-bearing capacity being greater than the first. The vertical load on the formwork climber of a protruding or overhanging portion of the volume to be cast is significantly greater that a non-protruding portion, so the load-bearing capacity of the anchor assemblies is chosen depending on the type of next-to- be-cast section. If the next-to-be-cast section is merely a continuation of the section currently being cast, or if there is only a modest overhang, then a conventional, relatively low-load anchor assembly may be used for supporting the formwork climber for casting the next section. If the next-to-be-cast section projects significantly outwards relative to the section currently being cast, then a significant extra load will be experienced when casting the next-to-be-cast section, and a suitably heavy-duty, high-load anchor assembly is cast into the current section being cast. Other objects and advantages of the invention will become apparent from the following description and the accompanying drawings. Figure 1 of the drawings shows a sectional view of a part of an example structure to be cast using the apparatus and method of the invention. Figure 2 shows a partly sectional view of two formwork climbers according to the invention being used to cast a vertical section of wall. Figure 3 shows in more detail a schematic representation of the adjustable horizontal formwork assembly used in the invention. Figure 4 shows one side of the arrangement shown in figure 2, illustrating how the formwork climber is raised to cast the next vertical section of wall. Figure 5 shows how the adjustable horizontal and vertical formwork elements of the formwork climber are deployed ready for casting an overhanging part of the structure. Figure 6 shows the overhanging part of the structure after casting, with the horizontal formwork lowered and the vertical formwork retracted. The drawings are provided to illustrate example implementations of the present invention, and to aid an understanding of the invention. They do not imply any restriction of the scope of the invention. In particular, although the drawings all depict the casting of a structure with one or more vertical faces, this should in no way be held to limit the scope of the invention to casting structures with strictly vertical faces. Indeed, it is explicitly the intention of the current application to provide for the casting of structures with all manner of inclined, curved or irregularly-shaped faces within the definition of the term "vertical". Where the same reference numerals are used in more than one of the attached drawings, the numerals are intended to relate to the same or corresponding features. Figure 1 shows in schematic form a cross-sectional view of an example structure to be cast using the apparatus and method of the present invention. The example structure 1 is a solid construction, shown cast in four sections 2a, 2b, 2c and 3. The structure may be a wall-type construction, for example, with a wall part cast in three sections 2a, 2b and 2c, surmounted by a ring-beam 3. Reinforcement and post-tensioning tendons are indicated symbolically by tensioning elements 6 in the wall part 2a, 2b and 2c, and by ring-beam tensioning elements 7 in the upper section 3. The structure has an outer surface comprising the wall part surface 2, the upper ring-beam part surface 5 and a substantially horizontal step-type or transitional surface 4 which forms an overhang. The structure illustrated in figure 1 is a simple example of the kind of overhanging structure which can be cast using the present invention. In practice, the surface portions 2 and 5 may be differently shaped and/or inclined from the vertical. Similarly, the transition surface 4 shown as a horizontal surface in figure 1 may be a non-planar surface or may be inclined relative to the horizontal. Figure 2 shows two opposed formwork climbers 10 and 1 1 which can be used to implement the method of the present invention in the construction of a wall 2a, 2b, 2c. Each successive section of wall 2a, 2b etc is cast separately. Figure 2 illustrates the climbers 10 and 1 1 mounted in position with vertical formwork 33 ready to cast section 2c of the wall. The formwork climbers 10 and 1 1 will be described in more detail with reference to climber 10, although it will be understood that the description also applies to the left-hand formwork climber 1 1 . Formwork climber 10 is a frame-like construction comprising a horizontal load-bearing beam 20, also referred to in this description as a bracket, secured to the already-cast section 2b of structure 1 by a fixing arrangement consisting of, for example, bolt 9, cone 8 and back-anchor 13. The climber apparatus normally comprises two or more such frames, spaced horizontally along the surface of the structure being cast. In the figures only one of the frames is shown for the sake of clarity. Horizontal beam 20 is also supported by a bracing structure 23 for transferring the load to a lower part of the structure 1 . Longitudinal beam elements 39, running for example horizontal and parallel to the face of the already-cast section 2b, may be used to spread the load across and between the two or more frames of which the formwork climber 10 is comprised. Bracing structure 23 may comprise adjustable struts or turnbuckles which can be adjusted to vary the angle of the horizontal beam 20 relative to the surface of the structure to which it is mounted. The adjustable bracing means 23 enable the horizontal beam 20 to be mounted horizontally even when the climber is fixed to a surface which is inclined from the vertical. Or it can allow the horizontal beam 20 itself to be mounted at an angle which is inclined from the horizontal. A bracing cable 12 may also be provided. This acts to hold the climber down on to its anchor mountings 8 - for example in high winds or as a result of unexpected impacts. In the example arrangement illustrated, each successive section 2a, 2b, 2c of structure 1 is cast with one set of anchor points 8, and the brace 12 for the current section 2b may be secured to the anchor point 8' of the previous section 2a using bolt or similar fastening 9'. Also shown in figure 2 are working platforms 21 and safety rails 22, mounted above, beneath or at the same level as the horizontal beam 20. As discussed above, climber frames are usually implemented in pairs, or in sets of more than two, spaced apart along the surface of the structure 1 . Each pair or set of climber frames thus forms one formwork climber apparatus. In the apparatus of the invention, horizontal beams 20 are adapted to support vertical formwork 33, which is for casting sections with substantially vertical surfaces, and horizontal formwork 45, which is for casting sections having an overhanging, substantially horizontal surface portion. Sections 2a, 2b and 2c can be cast using only the vertical formwork 33 so, while the plain wall- type part 2 of the structure 1 is being constructed, the horizontal formwork 45 and its associated support structure 43, 44, 46 are removed or retracted so as not to obstruct the use of the vertical formwork 33. Vertical formwork 33 is mounted on support member 30 using attachment elements 31 . Some or all of the attachment elements 31 may be equipped with adjustment means which permit the adjustment of the height or angular orientation of the vertical formwork 33 relative to the support member 30. Such adjustment means are shown as threaded adjusters 38 in figure 2, although any suitable adjustment means could be used. The support member 30 is, in turn, adjustably mounted on a carriage mechanism 40, 41 which permits the formwork 33 to be moved horizontally towards and away from the desired casting position. Angle-adjuster 32 and pivot 34 permit the vertical formwork 33 to be deployed inclined from the vertical if necessary. Angle adjuster 32 is pivotably attached to the vertical formwork support 30 or the formwork 33 at pivot point 37, and to the carriage 40, 41 at pivot point 36. Vertical formwork 33 can thus be moved horizontally into position for casting using the carriage mechanism 40, 41 . Similarly, the vertical formwork 33 can be moved away from the structure 1 between casting operations in order to facilitate the lifting of the climber, and so that the formwork 33 can be cleaned. These illustrated means of adjusting the angle, position and/or orientation of the vertical formwork 33 are examples of mechanical adjustment arrangements, and other means may of course be used. Figure 3 shows in more detail the adjustable formwork mounting arrangement already described with reference to figure 2. In particular, figure 3 illustrates an example of how the horizontal formwork 45 and the vertical formwork 33 of the invention can be adjustably supported, and how the horizontal formwork 45 and vertical formwork 33 can be combined for casting an overhanging structure such as ring-beam portion 3 of structure 1 . Vertical formwork 33 is adjustably secured to support member 30 using attachment elements 31 . Support member 30 is in turn supported on horizontal beam 20 by horizontal displacement means 40, 41 , 35, which may for example be implemented as a rack 40 slidably engaged on a runner 35 and moved by rotating pinion 41 . Other displacement means are of course also possible. Arrow A indicates the direction of travel of the formwork position horizontal position adjustment. The vertical formwork 33 can also be inclined with respect to the vertical angle adjustment means 32 (arrow B) and/or otherwise angled by means of adjustable mounts. Arrow C indicates in an exaggerated fashion how the vertical formwork 33 can be rotated slightly about a vertical axis by means of the various adjustable mounts. Vertical adjustment of the vertical formwork 33 is also possible, using adjusters 38. While the vertical position of vertical formwork 33 is coarsely prescribed by the position of mounts 8, and therefore horizontal beams 20, it can be finely set using vertical formwork vertical adjusters 38. This can be useful, for example, when matching the vertical position of the vertical formwork 33 relative to that of the horizontal (soffit) formwork 45. Figure 3 shows horizontal formwork 45 supported by various elements 43, 44 and 46 such that the height of the horizontal formwork 45 can be adjusted. Arrow D indicates the direction of vertical adjustment. In the example illustrated, horizontal formwork 45 may be a simple ply board supported by spacers 46. The spacers 46 are in turn supported by a spreader beam 44 supported by height adjusters 43. The spreader beam 44 and the spacers 46 are designed to bear the weight of the concrete above the horizontal formwork 45 without becoming significantly distorted. Interchangeable spacers 46 of various heights may be used to provide a coarse height adjustment, while the fine height adjustment is provided by height adjusters 43. Height adjusters 43 may be any kind of jack-like or other support device which can be adjusted and which can bear the required weight of concrete above it. The height adjusters 43 may be coupled together such that one adjustment operation adjusts all the height adjusters 43 simultaneously for one spreader beam 44, or they may be independently adjustable such that, by setting the various height adjusters 43 at different heights, an inclined formwork 45 may be achieved. A curved or otherwise shaped step surface 4 may be also achieved by means of suitably shaped formwork 45 and spacers 46. The fixing anchor may be implemented as a multi-component anchor assembly comprising, for example, a threaded lost anchoring part 13 cast permanently into the concrete, a retrievable, conical element 8, also cast into the concrete and secured removably to the anchoring part 13, and a bolt 9 for fastening the bracket 20, 23, 26 to the conical element 8. The bracket 20, 23, 26 and the fixing anchor arrangement 8, 9, 13, 14 must be capable of supporting the vertical load of the concrete above the horizontal formwork (and therefore the ring-beam concrete) as well as resisting the horizontal outward force component (ie away from the surface of structure 1 ) of the angular moment due to the vertical weight loading. The bracket 20 and the horizontal formwork assembly 4, 43, 44, 45 are arranged, as shown in figure 3, such that the weight of the concrete is supported close in to wall surface, and hence as close as possible to the anchoring points. The horizontal outward force component on the anchor assembly can thereby be minimised. In a variant of the invention, the heads of the bolts 9 are provided with a rounded or chamfered inner face. This is indicated in figure 3. Optionally, a correspondingly-shaped washer 14 may also be fitted between the head of bolt 9 and the part of the bracket 20 to be secured. Alternatively, such a washer may be integrated into the bolt head design. The reasons for using such rounded bolt head inner surface are as follows: pairs of support brackets 20 are usually mounted parallel to each other, so that the vertical formwork can be moved in and out along parallel runners 35 on the bracket support members 20. However, some structures, such as the containment vessels mentioned earlier, have curved walls, so pairs or sets of parallel brackets must inevitably be mounted at an angle to the surface. Instead of providing a custom-made angled end to the bracket for each new project, which would be expensive and time-consuming, or a variable-angle end to the bracket, which would be less strong, a bracket with a flat end is preferred. However, the conical elements 8 are usually cast into the structure 1 such that bolts 9 are fitted normal to the surface of the structure 1 . When the brackets 20 are mounted on the bolts 9 at an angle to the longitudinal axis of the bolt 9, the flat plate end of the bracket 20 will be at an angle to the inner (load-bearing) face of the bolt head 9. The contact area between the bolt head and the end plate of the bracket 20 will thus be extremely small, and the horizontal forces borne by the bolt 9 will thus be applied all at one small region of the inner face of the bolt head, which may result in distortion of the bolt 9 or the plate, or possibly failure of either part. By providing the bolt head with a rounded or chamfered inner face, the mating surface area between the bolt head and the flat plate can be increased, thus reducing the likelihood of distortion or damage. Figure 3 also illustrates another variant of the invention, wherein the conical element 8 is provided with a load-transferring shoulder in the form of a flaring of the conical element 8 in an outer region nearer to the outer surface of the structure 1 . The load-transferring shoulder can be a discontinuous change of angle of the outer surface of the conical element 8, or it can be formed with a continuous or varying curvature, or a combination of these profile types. The load-transferring shoulder serves to improve static load transfer from the bracket 20, via the bolt 9, into the concrete. In this way, the load-bearing properties of the conical anchor element can be greatly enhanced. The conical elements with the extra load-transferring shoulder can be used wherever conical elements are required to be cast in, or they can be reserved for those anchoring points which will be required to bear the load of the ring-beam while it is cast. In practice, it has been found that a conical anchor element equipped with a load-transferring shoulder can be capable of bearing a vertical load of more than 50kN, and up to 200kN or even more, without causing any significant degradation of the concrete surrounding the anchor cone 8 and the lost anchor part 13. Such heavy-duty, high-load anchor elements may be used for supporting the formwork climber for casting ring-beam sections, where the vertical loading is much greater than the conventionally-cast, non-overhanging, sections 2a, 2b, 2c of the structure 1 . Also indicated in figure 3 are some of the degrees of freedom which are afforded by the apparatus of the invention. Double-ended arrow A, for example, indicates the movement of the carriage 40 which supports the vertical formwork towards and away from the structure being cast. The displacement mechanism 35, 40, 41 may be implemented in a number of different ways. It must however be such that the vertical formwork can be held stationary while the concrete section is cast. Double-ended arrow B indicates how the vertical formwork 33 can be tilted about pivot point 34. This tilting is controlled by angle adjuster unit 32. Double-ended arrow C in intended to indicate one of the degrees of freedom of movement of the vertical formwork 33 which can be achieved by means of individual rotational adjusters (not shown). Double- ended arrow D indicates the vertical displacement of the horizontal formwork 45. The vertical displacement means 43, for example screw-jacks, can also be adjusted individually to incline the horizontal formwork 45 in any direction away from the horizontal. The vertical displacement means 43 can be used for bringing the formwork into position, bearing the weight of the casting material above it, and for lowering the formwork again after the casting is complete. Double-ended arrow E indicates how the vertical position of vertical formwork can be adjusted using vertical formwork vertical adjusters 38. Figures 4 to 6 show further steps in casting the example structure of figure 1 . Only one side of the casting and one formwork climber are shown in these figures, for the sake of clarity. Figure 4 shows a situation following that of figure 2, in which the concrete has been cast in section 2c. In figure 5, the formwork climber 10 is raised in preparation for casting a ring-beam section 3 on top of the already-cast section 2c of wall 1 . Figure 5 shows the horizontal formwork 45 in position, ready to support the weight of the overhanging part of the ring beam 3 while the concrete sets. Figure 6 shows the same arrangement as in figure 5, but after casting has been carried out, and when the casting material (concrete, for example) is sufficiently cured that the vertical and horizontal formwork 33 and 45 can be retracted away from the cast material to the positions shown. Note that, although the two anchors 8,13 and 8', 13' appear to be similar to each other in figures 5 and 6, the upper anchor 8,13 may advantageously be a heavy-duty anchor, such as the anchor shown in figure 3, capable of bearing the significant extra vertical load of the ring-beam section 3, while the lower anchor, 8Ί 3', is implemented as a more conventional, less heavy-duty anchor such as is normally used for supporting formwork climbers.

Aagerup, Torben (Bogtrykkervej 37, København NV, DK-2400, DK) By the fact that the foundation-arms are driven through the centre of the anchor head and out under the coating, costly damaging of the coating is avoided. The traditional way to found products such as urban equipment, signs, road-products, coverings, sheds and fences etc. is by the use of concrete foundation. In this situation the typical way of working is to dig an appropriate hole followed by the placement and the supporting of the product in the desired position. After this the hole is filled with concrete and left to harden. After typically 48 hours the supporting of the product can be removed and the coating can be reconstructed. The traditional point-foundation with the use of concrete is very time demanding because of the necessary time for hardening of the concrete, and in addition to this the necessary removing of the coating, digging followed by costly reconstruction of the coating. All this means that this form of point-foundation is far more expensive and time demanding compared with the use of a foundation anchor, as the applied adjustable foundation anchor. I In addition to this there is normally not any kind of built-in breaking-joint with the use of above mentioned concrete foundation. Therefore it is necessary to make a costly digging of the concrete foundation with following reconstruction of coating if damaged products have to be replaced. With the use of the applied adjustable foundation anchor it is possible to remount and replace damaged products without costly digging and reconstruction of the coating, because the adapter or the product is mounted on the top of anchor with integrated breaking-joint. Another option on how to lay and tackle end-products such as outdoor equipment, signs, road products, shelters, sheds, fences or balustrades is the use of earth anchors as the patented US 952,404. A major advantage of such earth anchor is that both anchor and end-product can be installed simultaneously without waiting for concrete to be set efficiently. However the use of such particular earth anchor as the patented US 952,404 involves cost-effective digging and resurfacing. The fact that the top-arms require that the anchor-body and device (see fig. 6 US patent 952, 404) must be inserted freely down in the ground before being driven out implies quite some digging over a large and deep surface. Patented US's earth anchor 952,404 consists of an anchor-body (see fig. l, no. 1 in US patent 952, 404) through which two bottom-arms (no. 20&21) are driven out as illustrated in fig. 1. In addition to this, there is a device (fig 6) which is mounted round the upper part of the anchor- body and through which the two top-arms (No. 52&54) are driven out through the controller guides (No. 36&38). Another device (fig. 8) is mounted on top of the anchor-body and where for instance the end- product can be fixed and adjusted accordingly. That particular device consists of two complex pipes (No. 60&64) which are bolted on the anchor-body. The horizontal and oblique arms (No. 66 and No. 100) can be adjusted in order to give the mast (No. 70) a vertical positioning. US earth-anchor patented 952,404 is vulnerable to damages in case the mast is ran-over due to the inexistance of a breaking-point on the devices on top of the anchor-body above the ground. The arms (both top and bottom) abilities that they can be driven out seperately and independently to each other is a major benefit compared to the more collective types where the arms are driven-off simultaneously. In such particular design, one single obstructed arm will prevent the other arms from driving out. The patented earth anchor US 952,404 is installed by driving the anchor-body (No. 1) into the ground to the required depth and the bottom-arms (No. 20&21) forced out deep inside the ground. The device (fig. 6) is mounted round the anchor-body and it is absolutely necessary that the ground surface is broken through and a large and deep enough hole is dug so that the top- arms can be pushed freely through the controller guides (No. 36 &38 in fig. 6) The implication of digging and resurfacing with the use of the patented US 952,404 earth- anchor makes the project quite costly and on the whole it becomes even more costly than the more traditional method based on concrete foundation. The device as shown in Fig. 6 which controls and guides the top-arms is mounted on the anchor-body and can be adjusted to the required depth and position. Subsequently can the top- arms be driven out in opposite directions. Even though when the top-arms are driven fully out, a slight benefit can be obtained against the vertical push-pull actions perpendicular to the top- arms. On the other hand, a parallel push-pull action in the direction of the arms will result in extremely low stability as only one of the arms will be deeply rooted while the other one will be driven back to its own track. In addition, it is likely that the ground around the top-arms can cause a major set-back. An obstruction on the way of the arm can cause it to bend and curve slightly resulting in the arm losing its original track and move out of the guide (No. 36). Consequently the anchor will loose stability and be dependent on only the cobtroller guide (No. 38) to provide stability. Likewise, the top-arms can be driven out of position if subjected to rotational forces or actions. Installing and mounting products such as outdoor equipment, signs, road products, shelters, sheds, fences etc. demand a certain level of precision and accuracy. The patented earth anchor US 952,404 provides a certain degree of adjustments via devices (fig. 8,9, 10&11) mounted on top of the anchor-body. The two pipes (No. 60&64) in fig. 8 are used as a platform on which item No. 66 is used to adjust and secure item No. 100 which in turn is fixed to item No. 70. Subsequently the vertical angle can be adjusted and regulated appropriately. However the foundation methods and technics are not quite practical with respect to end- products like outdoor equipment, fences, shelters etc. due to the amount of space the device occupies and its bulky physical structure. Consequently it is economically more demanding to mount and adjust such devices in contrast to the more manoeuvrable and simple design like the adjustable earth-anchor seeking patent. The adjustable earth-anchor as described in this patent application can be inserted into the ground without any digging followed by driving out all the arms which are independent to each other. The whole process is carried out without breaking down the ground surface. On the other hand both the adaptor and product can be vertically or horizontally adjusted simultaneously. Likewise the adjustable bolts and nipples do not require a surface area larger than the head of the anchor in bredth and the whole system appear to be like an integrated part of the end- product which sits over the earth-anchor. At the same time the foundation for an end-product of any kind (outdoor equipment, shelters, sheds, signs, road products, fences etc. ) will involve lesser surface break through or damages and resulting in a lower project costing as resurfacing reveals to be unecessary. As with the case of concrete laid foundations for the abovementioned end-products, the earth- anchor can provide as good accuracy and precision with the help of the adjustable head of the anchor. Regarding the economical factors and the time-efficinecies of laying foundations, the use of earth-anchors must to a full extent be more beneficial than its counterpart traditional concrete laid foundations. The use of the patented earth-anchor US 952,404 requires consequent digging in order to insert the top-arms through the control guides No. 36 &38 and at the same time the total cost increases considerably not only because of extensive digging but also to the fact that resurfacing must be carried out afterwards. The constant digging and resurfacing process also brings to a limit the amount of time that can be saved during the whole process from start to finish. On top of that, the patented US 952,404 earth anchor own costing and the adjustable devices bring the whole product to a remarkable overall costing. From a purely economical point of view, the utilization of the patented US 952,404 earth anchor and its adjustable devices to foundation solutions reveal to be more costly than the use of the traditional concrete-based foundations or the adjustable earth-anchor seeking patent. The non-existance of a genuine breaking-point at the level of the adjustable devices in the patented US 952,404 implies that the whole anchor system is prone to damages in case of a collision or if being ran over. A consequent collision will result in a very likely deformation of the top of the anchor-body where item No. 60 is mounted. Such damage to the anchor-body can make it practically impossible to re-mount another adjustable device on top and the plain solution will be to remove and install another earth-anchor. The utilization of the adjustable earth-anchor seeking patent resolves a major application which Demand 1 characterizes that the adjustable earth-anchor head comprehends of slant controller guides (No. 11) to accomodate and support the arms (No. 6) and holes (No. 3) for mounting and adjusting the adaptor (No. 4) or end-products (such as outdoor equipment, shelters, sheds, fences, balustrades, signs, road products etc. ). That also give possibility to avoid or completely omit digging for foundations and afterwards resurfacing.. The introduction of a breaking-point between the head (No. 3) and the adaptor (No. 4) or the end-product (such as outdoor equipment etc) gives the adjustable earth-anchor a particular characteristic such that there is no necessity to go through the process of digging and <BR> <BR> resurfacing in case an end-product (such as sign, fence etc. ) is being ran-over or subjected to hard impact. The breaking point ensures that the deep rooted earth-anchor suffers no damages in contrast to the traditional concrete-based foundation or the patented US 952,404 earth- anchor. The adapter (No. 4) with holes (No. 7) under which are the adjustable nipples (No. 8) gives the possibility to drive the adjustable earth-anchor down under surface and afterwards drive the arms through the manufactured controller guides (no. 11 and 9) located at the top and at the bottom of the anchor. This process can be carried out without the use of any digging of the surface and therefore no need for any resurfacing. To finish off, it is well possible to fix or adjust a desired product on top of the head (No. 3) and adaptor (No. 4) shortly afterwards. This particular earth-anchor system is adjustable and at the same time can be driven down the ground and the arms forced to spread out without the usual process of digging and resurfacing. The system can be very competitive in relation to the other earth-anchors or traditional concrete-based foundations. This patent seeking anchoring system gives also possibility to drive down and forced out both the top and bottom arms and makes appropriate adjustments and preparations to accomodate and end-product in a very short time compared to other known technics. Consequently the time and economic efficiencies of this particular system can in fact raise the competitiveness in the foundation laying areas. The easy adaptability, mounting and quick adjustments give a different dimension and approach to known technics such as the one used by the patented earth-anchor US 952,404. The constructiojn design of this particual earth-anchor system ensures that both the top and bottom arms can be driven out seperately and independent of each other. As a matter of fact, optimum anchoring can only be obtained when the arms are independently driven out. This brings a major advantage in relation to the other earth-anchoring system where the arms are driven out collectively; where a single obstructed arm can disturb or hamper the remaining arms and resulting in a considerably poor founadation with little stability. The constructuion design of this patent seeking anchoring system includes a breaking point at the head (No. 3) and this is advantageous in case of a collision or an end-product being ran- over. The design characteristic enables an end-product to be changed or re-mounted without the need for any digging and eventually any resurfacing processes. At the same time, while the damages are recorded above the surface, the deep rooted earth-anchor remains intact and undamaged compared to other anchoring methods or the concrete-based foundations where the damages can be recoded further under the surface. The mounting of end-products such as outdoor equipment, shelters, sheds, road products etc. stresses out a certain level of aestheticity. Based on this criteria, it is very likely that anchoring system such as the patented earth-anchor US 952,404 does not provide an adequate solution due to its bulky and space demanding characteristics. A more realistic option can be the anchor system and its adjustment device such as the adjustable earth-anchor seeking paten. Furthermore the adjustable device as described in patent US 952,404 is relatively more expensive than the adjustable device from the earth-anchor as described in the patent application. Here the earth anchor consists of only an adaptor with nipples and bolts. (fig. 3) The construction and design of the head with adjustable adaptor unit or end-product as described in the patent application provides a better outlook with the end-product such as outdoor equipment as it appear that the whole system is integrated as a single unit. Unlike the earth-anchor as described in the patent application, it is not technically possible for the other systems such as the US patented 952,404 earth-anchor or the traditional concrete- based foundation to lay a foundation, fix and adjust an end-product (such as outdoor equipment, sheds, shelters, etc) without the process of digging, resurfacing or concrete casting. The aim of this particular invention is to provide a more flexible approach to easy foundation with the help of the anchor adjustable possibilities. This is rendered technically possible by means of well-designed head and adaptor with adjustable accessories such as bolts and nipples. It is also very convenient to lay one or several foundations onto specific points with a high degree of accuracy that until now is impossible. In addition to that, the adjustable earth-anchor can be driven into the ground and the arms forced out without any pre-digging. In such way, additional contemporary expenses such as the time factor and resurfacing are avoided. The anchor's arms are driven out independently and one at a time thus ensuring optimum stability as each and every arm can be forced out to its extreme point underground as opposed to the anchor system with collective arms where a single arm can virtually paralyse the remaining arms to standstill. The adjustable earth-anchor as described in the patent application gives the possibility for quick and efficient repair work to be undertaken without major setbacks in case of damaged end- product. In extreme cases such as collisions or end-product being ran over, the bolt that secure the adaptor to the product, will eventually break before any damage is caused to the buried anchor. (In general cost for replacement of damaged end-product is relatively high in the case of the concrete-based foundations) The adjustable earth-anchor can basically have two sets of arms that can be driven out into the ground; a top set and a bottom set. The driven out top-arms (No. 6) make the earth-anchor more resistant to downward and lateral external forces while the bottom driven-out arms ensure more stability against major upward forces or lift. The earth-anchor in question has a very unique structure that gives the possibility to fine adjust the adaptor (No. 4) in relation to the head (No. 3). This can be actively done through the well- designed nipples with edged heads for good grip by up and down adjustments through the adaptor holes (No. 7) The description below gives a more detailed concept of the invention in question: Fig. 1 and 2 show a transverse sections of the adjustable earth-anchor used as a foundation for various end-products like outdoor equipment, signs etc. Fig. 3 shows the transverse section of the adjustable head and adaptor devices. Fig. 3a shows the transverse section of the adjustable head with the slanted control guides (No. 11), through which the top-arms are inserted. Fig. 4 shows the transverse section of the bottom-end of the earth-anchor Fig. 5 and 6 shows the earth-anchor in question before and after insertion into the ground respectively. The newly designed adjustable earth-anchor consists of one or more stable and very simple functional arms (No. 5 and No. 6) with the characteristic of being independent to each other while being driven out. The intelligent aspect of independent driving off of the arms means that less effort or force is required to force the arms out. Another aspect that is brought over is the lesser risk that the foundation can be diverted from its desirable position as big stones or other obstructions will not hamper the driving off of one or the several arms. The arms (No. 5 and No. 6) at both extremities (top and bottom) can be driven out from the head piece No. 3 one at a time even though when the earth-anchor is completely inserted in the ground as shown in Fig. 3a where the slanted controller guides (No. 11) are in the head piece (No. 3) and in Fig. 4 where the controller guides (No. 9) are at the bottom end (No. 1). Fig. 3a also shows the adaptability of fixing and fine adjusting the adaptor (No. 4) over the head piece (No. 3) through the holes (No. 12) The adjustable earth-anchor can be inserted into the ground and the arms (No. 5 and No. 6) driven out without the need of any concrete casting or digging and any eventual resurfacing. In addition as shown in fig. 3 it is possible to level, fine-adjust and mount end-products such as sheds, shelters, fences, road products etc. by means of the nipples (No. 8) which is mounted under the adaptor (No. 4) and through turning (clockwise or anticlockwise), it is possible to adjust the adaptor in a vertical and horizontal motion and finally the bolts (No. 10) ensure a secure platform by fixing the adaptor to the head piece (No. 3) via the holes (No. 12) The unique design structure of the head (No. 3) ensures that any damaged end-products can be easily replaced and re-mounted by the help of the bolts (No. 10) The bottom end (No. 1) of the adjustable earth-anchor enables the bottom arms (No. 5) to be driven out through the controller guides (No. 9). The slant structure of the controller guides help the system to sustain a more stable structure as the arms will be driven out at an angle in respect to the anchor body (No. 2) The anchor arms (No. 5 and No. 6) can be driven out through both head and bottom-end unit or through either one of the unit. Moreover the arms, whether the top or bottom ones can be activated independently thus avoiding any malfunction as in the collective system where a single obstructed arm will result in paralyzing the other remaining arms. The top arms (No. 6) which is driven out from the head unit (No. 3) through the controller guides (No. 11) give the earth-anchor more strength against any downward or lateral forces applied onto the system and the bottom arms (No. 5) when fully driven out from the bottom unit (No. 1) can efficiently counter act any lifting forces exerted upon the anchor. The head (No. 3) and adaptor unit (No. 4) of the earth-anchor is designed in such a complex way that it gives the possibility to make adjustments in every directions. The system also enables the laying of single or several foundations onto a specific points with a high degree of accuracy that can also be achieved by the traditional methods of concrete based foundations. The introduction of a breaking point between the head (No. 3) and the adaptor unit (No. 4) in the earth anchor device brings a great advantage in situation when the above end-products sustain violent collisions or are being ran-over. Replacing an end-product can be undertaken without the process of digging and afterwards re-establishing the surface. The breaking point ensures that the deep rooted earth-anchor doesn't suffer any damages which in contrast is quasi- inexistant in the concrete-based foundations. The physical structure of the bolts (No. 10) which fix the adaptor unit (No. 4) to the head (No. 3) of the adjustable earth-anchor can be made weaker for earth-anchors rooted in areas where risks of impacts on end-products are frequent. The major advantage of such changes in the bolt structure is to avoid damages to the deep rooted anchor below the surface. In doing so, replacement of above ground end-product will only involve changing of the adaptor unit (No. 4) while holding to the same earth-anchor rooted below the surface. The adjustable earth-anchor also gives the possibility to drive the top and bottom arms directly into the earth-anchor body without any digging and making fine adjustments to the adaptor unit above the head effciently and effectively. This can be done due to the fact that both the top and bottom arms can be driven out into the ground first through the centre of the head unit (No. 3) and afterwards the controller guides (No. 11 and No. 9) help the top and bottom arms respectively out deep under the surface. The arms can be forced out independent of each other giving optimum stability to the earth-anchor unit. The head unit (No. 3) of the earth-anchor has holes (No. 12) and thus provides a good platform onto which the adaptor unit (No. 4) can be fixed and if adjustments are necessary, this can be done by the adjusting the nipples (No. 8) which sit in between the adaptor and the head unit. The earth-anchor consists of two sets of arms; the top set and the bottom set. Each set of arm, whether top or bottom can have one or several arms. The bottom set of arms are first inserted into the earth-anchor main body (No. 2) and forced down in a paralell motion to the main body (No. 2). The controller guides (No. 9) at the bottom end of the earth-anchor enable the arms to go through and the slanted structure of the holes enable the arms (No. 5) to move outwards and bend to a hooked like form as shown in fig. 6 The top set can also have one or several arms (No. 6) and are driven out through the slant controller guides (No. 11) to form a solid straight shape as shown in fig. 6 to ensure stability against downward and sideward extreme forces. The head and adaptor unit of the earth-anchor described in the patent application is cleverly designed in such a way to give the possibility to adjust end-products (like shelters, fences etc) in various directions. As shown in fig. 3, the nipples (No. 8) which sit in between the head (No. 3) and the adaptor unit (No. 4), can be regulated to adjust the adaptor unit in a vertical or horizontal motion. The bolts (No. 10) are hence use to secure the unit to the head (No. 3) through the holes (No. 12) In areas with sand or soft materials under ground surface, the application of concrete based foundation will result in an uneven surface after the concrete has set. This situation of an uneven surface around the foundation can be widely observed where concrete based foundation has been used. However such type of problem is non-existant when earth-anchored systems are used. Furthermore the expenses arising due to the processes of digging, concrete works, resurfacing and asphalting are largely reduced or at the most completely reduced in the application of earth-anchor devices. Next Patent: SHOCK ABSORBER WITH REAR COLLISION PROTECTION DEVICE

GERG, James (24725 Woodhill Lane, Lake Forest, CA, 92630, US) TRAN, Tuan (tom), M. (8122 Catherine Avenue, Stanton, CA, 90680, US) GERG, James (24725 Woodhill Lane, Lake Forest, CA, 92630, US) ADJUSTABLE FOOT PEDAL CONTROL FOR OPHTHALMIC SURGERY Field of the Invention [0001] The present application relates to operating controls for ophthalmic surgical apparatus and, more particularly, to an adjustable foot operated control. Background of the Invention [0002] Ophthalmic surgical apparatus such as phacoemulsification apparatus typically include operating controls for regulating parameters or functions of the apparatus. Such phacoemulsification apparatus is particularly directed for surgically removing the natural, crystalline lenses from cataractic eyes prior to the insertion of an artificial intraocular lens. [0003] Such apparatus typically includes a control cabinet, power supply, one or more pumps as well as associated electronic hardware for operating a multifunction handheld surgical implement in order to sonically emulsify eye tissue, irrigate the eye with a saline solution and aspirate the emulsified lens from the eye. [0004] In view of the handheld instrumentation necessary for a phacoemulsification procedure, foot controls are frequently provided in order to facilitate use of the handpiece by delegating other control functions to the foot pedal device. [0005] Any number of foot pedal device systems have been utilized which included a variety of pneumatic and electrical actuators to control the ophthalmic surgical apparatus. For instance, improved foot pedal control systems such as that described in U.S. Pat. No. 4,983,901 provide for a virtually unlimited number of control variations and modes for operating phacoemulsification apparatus. One popular type of foot control is termed a dual-control foot pedal because of the two directions of foot movement to actuate the controls. A treadle (the actual pedal) may be pivoted in a vertical plane, as in a standard car accelerator-type pedal, while also rotated in a horizontal plane or yaw direction. In addition to the dual treadle control, one or more other foot-actuated switches placed close to the treadle are often provided for easy access. [0006] The foot pedal must be user friendly in order to provide a surgeon comfort and reliability in its use so as not to initiate disruption of the surgeon's concentration when performing surgery. During control of the foot pedal the surgeon's posture is influenced by efforts to prevent losing contact with the foot pedal, which is achieved by keeping one foot flexed above the pedal and loading the body weight on the other foot. This causes a non- ergonomic posture which can lead to physical discomfort, and sometimes mistakes in control of the foot pedal. [0007] Furthermore, as may be expected, different types of foot pedals are preferred by different surgeons, with some surgeons preferring an accelerator-type pedal in which the sole of the surgeon's foot is utilized for depression, while others desire a pedal engageable by the surgeon's toe in order to depress the pedal. This, of course, leads to the development of a multitude of foot pedal devices of diverse configuration in order to provide the comfort and reliability desired by individual surgeons. For instance, U.S. Pat. No. 6,360,630 to Holtorf discloses a dual position foot pedal rotatably mounted to a base in order to be operated by the toe or sole of a user's foot. However, even with such flexible designs, a change in foot pedals is often required when phacoemulsification apparatus is utilized in sequence by different physicians, which is inconvenient and may require recalibration of the apparatus. In addition, such alternative foot pedals may not be available or even offered by a manufacturer. [0008] Despite the availability of a number of relatively effective foot pedal designs, there is a need for a more ergonomically flexible foot pedal that enhances surgeon comfort and concentration. Brief Description of the Drawings [0009] Features and advantages of the present invention will become appreciated as the same become better understood with reference to the specification, claims, and appended drawings wherein: [0010] Figure 1 is a top view of a prior art foot pedal control for ophthalmic surgery; [0011] Figure 2 is a perspective view of another prior art foot pedal control for ophthalmic surgery; [0012] Figures 3A-3D are bottom plan views of a number of different shoe shapes; [0013] Figure 4 is a perspective view of an exemplary foot pedal control for ophthalmic surgery described in the present application; [0014] Figures 5 and 5A are side elevational and transverse sectional views of the foot pedal control of Figure 4; [0015] Figure 6 is an exploded perspective view looking up on the foot pedal control of Figure 4; [0016] Figure 7 is an exploded perspective view looking down on the foot pedal control of Figure 4; [0017] Figure 8A and 8B are top plan views of a treadle of the foot pedal control illustrating laterally-adjustable guides thereon; [0018] Figures 9A-9D are bottom plan views of different shoe shapes showing the adjustable guide rails conforming thereto; [0019] Figure 10 is an exploded perspective view of the treadle of the foot pedal control of Figure 4; [0020] Figure 11 is an exploded perspective view of an actuation plate of the treadle of Figure 8; [0021] Figures 12A and 12B are top plan views of actuation plate of the treadle with guides adjusted in two different positions; [0022] Figures 13A and 13B are perspective views of the foot pedal control of Figure 4 showing adjustment to fit two different sizes and shapes of shoes; [0023] Figures 14A and 14B are perspective views of the foot pedal control of Figure 4 showing two different positions of a carrying handle; [0024] Figures 15 and 16 are perspective views of the foot pedal control of Figure 4 with the carrying handle in a raised position to illustrate different benefits during use; [0025] Figures 17A and 17B illustrate two different methods of carrying the foot pedal control of Figure 4 with the handle in raised and lowered positions, respectively; [0026] Figures 18A and 18B are two perspective views of an alternative foot pedal control treadle having articulated laterally-adjustable guides; and [0027] Figure 19 illustrates an exemplary phacoemulsification/vitrectomy irrigation/aspiration system in a functional block diagram as an exemplary surgical system in which the foot pedal control disclosed herein may be utilized. Summary of the Invention [0028] The present application discloses a foot pedal control for a surgical system (e.g., an ophthalmic surgery system) that adjusts to a number of different sizes of users' shoes. The foot pedal control has a treadle on which a user places his or her foot and a sensor that tracks the movements thereof. Adjustable lateral guides mount to the treadle and conform to both sides of the foot. The guides are shaped and positioned to conform to a wide variety of feet or shoes, and may easily be adjusted between users. A retractable heel stop converts between up for reference and down to enhance movement of the user' s foot. A convertible handle may be stowed in a down position parallel to a base or pivoted up over the treadle for protection and ease of movement of the foot pedal control. The foot pedal control may be wireless and have various other electronic controls, and may have a dual-control treadle. [0029] In accordance with one embodiment, a foot pedal control for a surgical system comprises a base, a treadle mounted for rotational yaw movement relative to the base and having a generally planar foot platform, and a sensor that tracks the yaw movements of the treadle and generates an electronic signal therefor. A pair of guides mounted on the treadle flank and extend upward from the foot platform, wherein at least one of the guides is movable to adjust the lateral spacing therebetween and accommodate variable foot widths on the foot platform therebetween. [0030] In one embodiment, both of the guides are adjustable, and the guides may be adjustable independent of one another or move in tandem. The guides may each mount to articulate on the treadle with at least two adjustable segments. Preferably, both of the guides are also adjustable in an anterior-posterior direction, however at least one adjustable guide is preferably adjustable in an anterior-posterior direction and translates along an angled slot in the treadle. The angled slot desirably extends from a posterior point outward in an anterior direction at an angle of between about 15° and 45° from the longitudinal axis of the treadle. Further, the guide may be configured to move along the angled slot in a ratcheted fashion so as to have a series of stop positions distinguished by audible and/or tactile clicks. [0031] The treadle may be a dual-motion treadle also mounted for vertical pivoting movement relative to the base, and the control further includes a sensor that tracks the pivoting movements and generates an electronic signal therefor. In one embodiment, the guides have a rail extending upward to a height generally perpendicular to the foot platform of between about 15 mm (0.6 inches) and 38 mm (1.5 inches). Desirably, the guides are elongated in an anterior- posterior direction and each includes a lip extending toward the other guide and generally parallel to the foot platform, and a rail extending upward from the lip generally perpendicular to the foot platform. The guides may be elongated in an anterior-posterior direction and S-shaped so as to have convex and concave inner faces to conform to different areas of users' feet. In one version, the treadle further includes a heel stop at the posterior end of the foot platform, the heel stop being convertible from a first position extending upward from the foot platform and a second position at or below the level of the foot platform. [0032] Another aspect of the present application is a system for surgery including a surgery unit having a hand-held operative tip connected to a console. A foot pedal control in electronic communication with the console features a base and a treadle mounted for rotational yaw movement relative to the base and having a generally planar foot platform. The foot pedal control has a built-in sensor that tracks the yaw movements of the treadle and generates an electronic signal for communication to the console and subsequent control of the operative tip. The treadle has a pair of guides mounted thereon flanking and extending upward from the foot platform, wherein at least one of the guides is movable to adjust the lateral spacing therebetween and accommodate variable foot widths on the foot platform therebetween. [0033] In one embodiment, the surgery unit is for ophthalmic surgery and the operative tip is adapted for insertion into an eye and includes a lumen for aspiration. Variations of the foot pedal control in the surgical system are described above. [0034] Another system for surgery disclosed herein comprises a surgery unit including an operative tip connected to a console, and a foot pedal control in electronic communication with the console. The foot pedal control has a base with an undercarriage arranged to lie flat on a ground surface, and a treadle mounted for vertical pivoting movement relative to the base. The foot pedal control has a built-in sensor that tracks the pivoting movement of the treadle and generates an electronic signal for communication to the console and subsequent control of the operative tip. A carrying handle connects to the base and converts between at least two positions - a first position above the treadle and generally perpendicular to the undercarriage of the base, and a second position out of the way of the treadle and generally parallel to the undercarriage of the base. [0035] In one embodiment, the surgery unit is for ophthalmic surgery and the operative tip is adapted for insertion into an eye and includes a lumen for aspiration. Variations of the foot pedal control in the surgical system are described above. [0036] In one embodiment, the carrying handle is mounted to the base to lock into the two positions. Preferably, the carrying handle has two ends mounted to the base at two pivot points, and each pivot point features an actuator for unlocking the carrying handle for rotation, wherein both actuators must be activated to convert the carrying handle between positions. The carrying handle may mount to the base to pivot about an axis parallel but offset with respect to the plane defined by the undercarriage of the base, wherein in the first position above the treadle and generally perpendicular to the undercarriage of the base the carrying handle defines a curvilinear side strut that is convex in the anterior direction. Detailed Description of the Preferred Embodiments [0037] The present application describes an improved foot pedal control for ophthalmic surgery that adjusts to a number of different sizes of users' shoes. An exemplary illustrated embodiment is designed for ophthalmic surgery, although the foot pedal control may be modified for other types of surgery, such as endoscopic coagulation surgery. Furthermore, the exemplary foot pedal is described as having a number of functional features, and it should be understood that some of these features may be amended or modified as needed. Likewise, though the illustrated design with an adjustable foot shape and movable handle is particularly well-suited for the controls shown, those controls may be modified while still retaining the novel aspects described herein. [0038] To better understand the limitations of prior art foot pedal controls, two currently available models will be discussed. Figure 1 is a top view of a foot pedal control 20 for ophthalmic surgery that is available as Model No. AMO SOV680701 from Advanced Medical Optics, Inc. of Santa Ana, CA. The foot pedal control 20 includes a base 22 having an upstanding, generally inverted U-shaped carrying handle 24 thereon. A generally rectangular treadle 26 having a non-stick surface thereon is arranged to pivot on the base 22, much like the accelerator of a car. A pair of side switches 28 projects outward from the base 22 on either side of the toe portion of the treadle 26. Electronic circuitry (not shown) within the foot pedal control 20 translates depression of the treadle 26 into a control signal for whatever surgical instrument (not shown) to which the foot pedal connects. [0039] Figure 2 shows another prior art foot pedal control 30 for ophthalmic surgery, as described in U.S. Patent Publication No. 2006/0219049 assigned to Alcon, Inc., of Fort Worth Texas. Alcon makes a similar looking foot pedal control and markets it in conjunction with its Infiniti® phacoemulsification surgical system. The foot pedal control 30 includes a body or housing having a bottom portion 32 and a top portion 34, and a foot pedal or treadle 36. The control 30 includes a separate heel cup assembly 38 and a carrying handle 40 positioned in the front. Side or wing switches 42 mount on the top housing portion 34 on either side of the treadle 36. It should be noted that the switches 42 mount to the housing and remain stationary until actuated by lateral contact with the user' s foot from on the treadle 36. [0040] The heel cup assembly 38 is positioned at the rear portion of the foot pedal control 30 to engage the heel of the operator, and allows the operator to rotate the heel cup assembly through an arcuate path 44. This movement produces an electrical signal received by encoder assembly (not shown) as an additional control signal to the surgical system. Furthermore, an ON/OFF switch is included in the heel cup assembly 38, such as a slide switch actuated by moving the heel cup assembly along a linear path 46. Although this design provides functionality, it is not the most intuitive or convenient to use. [0041] Figures 3A-3D are bottom plan views of a number of different shoe sole shapes to illustrate the wide variety of potential users of foot pedal controls. Figure 3 A is a standard flat sole preferred by many female medical professionals, in a relatively large shoe size for the left foot. Figure 3B is a somewhat smaller- sized left- footed, high-heeled shoe with a larger metatarsal region. Figure 3C shows an even smaller-sized low-heeled shoe for the right foot that is substantially narrower than the high-heeled shoe. Finally, in Figure 3D the sole of a relatively large-sized running shoe for the right foot indicates a still further shape variation. Moreover, many medical professionals shed shoes in favor of socks or sterile booties, which add very little in the way of bulk and largely conform to the user's foot. Without belaboring the point, the reader will see that even in similarly- sized feet, the use of both right and left feet with different widths and shoe styles, or no shoes, creates thousands of permutations. Present foot control pedals provide relatively little adjustability, which often creates discomfort and at times impediments to proper operation of the pedal. [0042] Figure 4 is a perspective view of an exemplary foot pedal control 50 for use in a surgical system, for instance for ophthalmic surgery. The foot pedal control 50, as also seen exploded in Figures 6 and 7, comprises a base 52 on which is mounted a treadle 54 and a carrying handle 56. The base 52 has an undercarriage 58 arranged to lie flat on a ground surface. More specifically, the undercarriage 58 includes either a flat bottom surface or a series of separate feet that provide a stable base surface on the ground. For purpose of orientation, the foot pedal control 50 extends upward from the undercarriage 58, a forward or anterior direction is to the left in Figure 4, and a rearward or posterior direction is to the right. Furthermore, in a preferred embodiment the treadle 54 is symmetric about a vertical medial plane bisecting the treadle into two substantially symmetric lateral (left and right) halves. The various components of the foot pedal control 50 may be made from any suitable material, such as stainless steel, titanium or plastic. [0043] The treadle 54 mounts for movement on the base 52 to provide a movable control surface for the user. A variety of different movements for the treadle 54 may be provided, although the present invention provides particular advantages for treadles mounted for rotational yaw movement relative to the base 52, as seen by the movement arrows in Figure 4. Alternatively, the treadle 54 may be mounted for pivoting movement in a vertical plane (pitch), as seen by the movement arrows in Figure 5, or may be a dual-control treadle capable of both yaw and pivoting movement. The foot pedal control 50 further incorporates one or more sensors that track the movements thereof and generate an electronic signal therefor. As will be explained in the context of the surgical system shown in Figure 19, the generated signal is used to control various functions of an operative tip, such as an ultrasonically vibrated needle with aspiration in a phacoemulsification/vitrectomy system. [0044] Figures 5 and 5A show the base 52 comprises a housing 60 having a pair of upstanding posterior shoulders 62 laterally flanking a central depression 64. A posterior end of the treadle 54 extends between the shoulders 62 and mounts on a dual-axis pivot assembly 66. As mentioned, the pivot assembly 66 enables both yaw movement and pitch (pivoting) movement in a vertical plane. That is, the anterior end of the treadle 54 may be moved side-to- side as indicated by the movement arrows in Figure 4, or in a vertical plane as indicated by the movement arrows in Figure 5. The pivot assembly 66 desirably incorporates biasing members (e.g., springs) that tend to return the treadle 54 to a neutral position having an angle to the vertical as seen in Figure 5 and horizontally centered between the shoulders 62 and along a medial plane over the base 52. The treadle 54 range of movement is desirably symmetric about the medial plane so as to avoid any difference for left- and right-footed users. [0045] Figure 7 best illustrates a circuit board 70 and various electronic components provided in the foot pedal control 50. The pivot assembly 66 registers with sensors, such as encoder assemblies, that translate the yaw position as well as the angular or pitch position of the treadle 54, and communicate with the circuit board 70. Also, separately functional side or wing switches 72 may be placed on the top of housing 60 on either side of the treadle 54, such as on the shoulders 62. The switches 72 provide alternative controls, such as power and operating mode controls. A wire or wireless transmitter (not shown) communicates the resultant signals to the aforementioned surgical system for controlling an operative tip thereof. [0046] The foot pedal control 50 of the present invention incorporates a number of features that greatly improved the ease-of-use thereof for a variety of different foot and/or shoe sizes and styles. With reference to Figure 7, among others, a pair of laterally-adjustable guides 80 mount on the treadle 54 flanking a central foot platform 82. In a preferred embodiment, the foot platform 82 has a non-slip (e.g., rubber) liner with bumps or other friction-enhancing features. Also, a heel stop 84 may be converted between an up position as shown for receiving and supporting the heel of the user, and a down position out of the way of the user. Additionally, the carrying handle 56 converts between at least two positions depending on the preference of the user, as will be explained below. Finally, various ergonomic shapes, surfaces, and placements of the functional features of the foot pedal control 50 facilitate use by a variety of foot sizes and shapes. It should be understood that each of these advantages may be incorporated into existing foot pedal controls by themselves, or in combination with any of the others. [0047] First with reference to Figure 8 A and 8B, the adjustable guides 80 are shown in two different potential positions on the treadle 54. In these views, up on the page corresponds to the anterior direction, down corresponds to the posterior direction, a medial plane M extends out of the page through a central plane of the treadle 54, and the adjustable guides 80 are disposed laterally outward therefrom, flanking the foot platform 82. In Figure 8A, the guides 80 are shown displaced laterally outward from the medial plane M, and upward in an anterior direction, while in Figure 8B the guides or displaced laterally inward toward the medial plane M and downward in a posterior direction. In the illustrated embodiment, the adjustable guides 80 are mounted to the treadle 54 and move between these two positions in tandem. However, as will be explained below, various other possible configurations for the guides 80 are contemplated. [0048] The lateral inward and outward movement of the guides 80 relative to the medial plane M adjusts the spacing therebetween. This provides flexibility for users having different sizes of feet or shoes, as the case may be. As mentioned above, many users operate foot controls wearing just socks, while others prefer to leave their shoes on. Preferably, the guides 80 adjust inward to a minimum spacing to accommodate the smallest user foot without a shoe, such as women's' size 5, while they also adjust outward to a maximum spacing to accommodate large shoes such as size 13 men's'. [0049] Figures 9A-9D illustrate the same shoe bottoms as previously described with respect to Figures 3A-3D, but this time showing the adjustable guides 80 on either side thereof in different locations conforming to the various shoes. It should be noted that the guides 80 are shown not only moved laterally inward or outward, and upward or downward (anterior or posterior), but also rotated to conform to the various shoes. Although the illustrated mechanism for displacing the guides 80 does not explicitly accommodate such rotation, it is shown here to illustrate a further possible movement. The guides 80 may be adjusted to contact either side of the shoes, or merely be relocated to reduce the space between the shoes and the guides. [0050] With reference again to Figures 7 and 8A-8B, each of the guides 80 is elongated in an anterior-posterior direction and includes a lip 86 extending toward the other guide and generally parallel to the foot platform 82. Each guide 80 further includes a rail 88 extending upward from the lip 86 and generally perpendicular to the foot platform 82. [0051] The shallow lips 86 provide sock-catchers, in a manner of speaking, in that they help prevent the guides 80 from snagging loose booties or socks during adjustment or movement of the foot. The lips 86 are generally tapered downward in height toward the medial plane M from the rails 88, and the user at all times steps on the lips which helps prevent folds of the sock from getting trapped under the guides. The lips 86 are also rounded to eliminate any corners to catch on socks. [0052] The anterior-posterior length of the upstanding rails 88 desirably provides enough surface area for the user to comfortably laterally press his or her foot on either guide and cause the treadle 54 to rotate in the yaw direction. That is, although the rails 88 may be as small as a post and still provide a reaction surface against which to engage the foot, they desirably have a length of at least 38 mm (1.5 inches) for comfort and greater control. [0053] Additionally, the height of the rails 88 is desirably great enough to prevent the user's sock-covered foot or shoe from riding over them, but is not too great to permit the user to easily lift his or her foot out from between the guides when needed. For example, the user may wish to regularly actuate one or both of the two wing switches 72, which require rapidly placing and removing the foot between the guides 80. In a preferred embodiment, the guides 80 have an upward height generally perpendicular to the foot platform 82 of between about 15 mm (0.6 inches) and 38 mm (1.5 inches). [0054] The guides 80 are desirably contoured to match typical foot shapes. As mentioned, the user may be wearing a sock or some type of shoe, but all feet and shoes are somewhat narrow toward the arch and heel, or on a posterior end, and broader adjacent the metatarsal bones, or on the anterior, forward end. Therefore, the exemplary guides 80 are slightly outwardly angled in an anterior direction, as indicated in Figure 8A, by the angle θ between a line extending from one tip to another of the guide and a reference line parallel to the medial plane M. Furthermore, the guides 80 desirably have an S-shaped so as to define both convex and concave regions on their inner faces that conform to different areas of users' feet. More particularly, a convex-inward posterior segment 90 and a concave-inward anterior segment 92 match concave arch and convex metatarsal areas, respectively, of typical foot /shoe shapes. Finally, as seen best in Figure 7, the axial height of the rails 88 varies from a maximum at the midpoint to reduce heights at the anterior and posterior tips. That is, the rails 88 are gradually tapered to have a taller middle and shorter ends. This helps avoid snagging socks on the rails, and also facilitates moving the foot in out from between the rails. Furthermore, the tapered height reduces corner angles in case the user accidentally steps down hard on them. [0055] As mentioned above, the exemplary guides 80 desirably translate along angled slots in the treadle 54, and are mounted so as not to rotate. However, other alternatives are possible. For example, one of the guides 80 may be stationary while the other adjusts. A simple alternative adjustable guide comprises blocks having pins that are movable between a series of holes in the treadle 54. For example, both guides 80 shown in Figure 8A may be completely separated from the treadle 54 and replaced in different holes to create the spacing shown in Figure 8B. The matching pins and holes for such separate blocks desirably prevent rotation of the guides for stability. For instance, the matching pins and holes may be other than circular, or more than one matching pin and hole combination for each guide may be provided. [0056] Figures 10 and 11 are exploded perspective views of the treadle 54 of the foot pedal control 50 showing an exemplary lateral adjustment mechanism. The treadle 54 includes a foot plate 100 on which a rubber cover 102 is placed to define the central foot platform 82. The foot plate 100 mounts to and covers a lower actuation plate 104. The foot plate 100 further includes a pair of angled slots 106 through which upstanding brackets 108 from the foot plate extend. The brackets 108 fit within similarly- shaped receptacles on the underside of each of the guides 80 (Figure 11). [0057] As seen exploded in Figure 11, the brackets 108 each receive two guide pins 110 (e.g., rivets) that slide along a pair of parallel guide slots 112 provided in the actuation plate 104 (seen from below in Figure 6). The brackets 108 each feature an inwardly angled finger 114 having a slot therein that receives a pair of pins 116 on one of two oppositely extending wings 118 of a central ratchet member 120. The ratchet member 120 is in the shape of a cross with an elongated central beam 122 and the outwardly extending wings 118. Upstanding pegs 124 in the actuation plate 104 project through a central channel 125 in the ratchet member 120. One of the upstanding pegs 124, along with a secondary peg 126 (see Figure 12B), secures a triangular plate 128 to the foot plate 100. A pawl member 130 is mounted to rotate about a pin 132 on the plate 128. As seen best in Figures 12A and 12B, the pawl member 130 is constrained for minimal lateral movement between an upstanding step 134 on the plate 128 and a series of ratchet teeth 136 on the ratchet member 120. A small spring the biases a pawl 140 on the pawl member 130 toward the ratchet teeth 136. [0058] Now with reference to Figures 10 and 12A-12B, which show the assembled actuation plate 104, the movement of the various linked parts will be described, The ratchet member 120 overlays both the triangular plate 128 and the inwardly angled fingers 114 on each of the brackets 108. The ratchet member 120 further includes a bent tab 142 that protects downward into an elongated channel 144 in the actuation plate 104 (see also Figure 11). The upstanding pegs 124 and cooperation between the bent tab 142 and channel 144 constrain the ratchet member 120 to longitudinal movement over the actuation plate 104. The two pins 116 on each of the oppositely extending wings 118 of the ratchet member 120 therefore remain in the same relative orientation and translate longitudinally. Interaction between the pins 116 and the slots in the angled fingers 114 of the brackets 108 links movement of the ratchet member 120 to movement of the brackets. At the same time, the cooperating pins 110 restrict movement of the brackets 108 to linear movement along the angled slots 112 in the actuation plate 104. The brackets 108 can move laterally with respect to the ratchet member 120 by virtue of the sliding play between the pins 116 and the slots in the angled fingers 114. [0059] Figures 12A and 12B show two different positions of the mechanism. In Figure 12A the central ratchet member 120 is relatively high on the actuation plate 104 as seen by the relative positions of the lower peg 124 in the bottom of the longitudinal channel 125. The pins 116 on the outwardly extending wings 118 are close to the innermost end of the slots in the angled fingers 114 of the brackets 108. At the same time, the pins 110 on the brackets 108 are close to the top ends of the angled slots 112 in the actuation plate 104. This corresponds to the position of the guides 80 shown in Figure 8A. [0060] In Figure 12B the brackets 108 as well as the ratchet member 120 have been displaced downward, corresponding to the position of the guides 80 shown in Figure 8B. The simultaneous change in position of the various pins and slots are evident and will not be further explained. It should be noted, however, that a number of the ratchet teeth 136 have descended past the spring-biased pawl member 130. This corresponds to a series of stop positions for the ratchet member 120 distinguished by audible and/or tactile clicks. Although not required for lateral guide adjustment, such a ratcheting configuration helps the operator quickly adjust the guides 80 to the desired position. [0061] It should also be noted that a movement of the guides 80 may be accomplished by either manually displacing one or both of the guides 80 from the top of the treadle 54, or by linearly displacing the bent tab 142 that extends through the channel 144 to the underside of the treadle. Of course, a more ergonomically comfortable (plastic) knob or lever may be mounted on the end of the bent tab 142, such as the widened grip 146 seen in Figure 6. The angle at which the guides 80 move along slots in the treadle 54 should be selected so that the guides can be easily moved by hand yet hold their lateral positions against foot movement. More specifically, as seen in Figure 12B, the angled parallel guide slots 112 along which the brackets 108 slide may extend from a posterior point outward in an anterior direction at an angle α of between about 15° and 45° from a longitudinal axis of the treadle 54. preferably between about 15° and 30°, and in an exemplary embodiment α is about 25°. Note that from Figures 8A and 8B the longitudinal axis of the treadle 54 corresponds to the medial plane M bisecting the treadle into two substantially symmetric lateral halves. The slots 106 in the foot plate 100 also mirror this angle, though some play may be introduced to accommodate the shape and/or rotation of the brackets 108. [0062] It should be noted that other means for displacing the guides 80 are contemplated other than those described and illustrated. In a simple version the guides 80 slide along the same angled slots but without the connecting/ratcheting structure. The guides may be locked in place with a bolt/wing nut combination accessed under the treadle 54. Or, the guides may be arranged to pivot about axes perpendicular to the foot platform 82, and locked in position with a threaded tightener. In another example, the guides 80 may be spring-biased into their outward-most position and automatically constrict to conform to the user's foot after the user steps on the foot platform 82. When the user removes his or her foot, the guides 80 spring outward again to be ready to accommodate the largest feet/shoe. Another possible means for translating the guides 80 is a motor of some sort. Much like the adjustment of a car seat, the user may have full control over an infinite number of positions of the guides 80, in tandem or separately, using electronic control switches. [0063] Figures 13A and 13B are perspective views of the foot pedal control 50 showing the guides 80 adjusted to fit two different sizes and shapes of shoes. Specifically, Figure 13A illustrates the guides 80 adjusted to fit a relatively narrow woman's heeled shoe, while Figure 13B shows the guides conforming around a flat-soled somewhat broader shoe, The reader will also note that the carrying handle 56 lies out of the way and generally parallel to the ground, or in terms of the foot control pedal, parallel to the undercarriage of the base 52. This permits the user to easily engage and disengage the foot pedal control 50, and also to actuate the wing switches 72. [0064] Furthermore, Figure 13A shows the heel stop 84 in its down position which may be preferred for the high-heeled type of shoe shown. That is. this type of shoe does not conform easily to the heel stop 84, and thus the heel stop is most likely pivoted down out-of-the-way. In contrast, the shoe in Figure 13B conforms nicely to the concave heel stop 84, which is in the up position. [0065] With reference back to Figures 7 and 11, the exemplary heel stop 84 comprises an arcuate rigid member having two free ends 150 with through holes that pivot on a common axis about pins 152 secured at the rear sides of the actuation plate 104 of the treadle 54. The concave inside curvature of the heel stop 84 closely conforms to the convex posterior end of the treadle 54. An inside chamfer 154 on the upper corner of the heel stop 84 facilitates release of the user's foot from the treadle 54, especially in cases where the posterior end of the user's shoe sole is highly angled. A small locking button 156 may be mounted through a midline of the heel stop 84 for engagement with a depression or other such feature on the posterior end of the treadle 54. The locking button 156 is desirably spring-loaded toward the treadle 54, whereby the user simply pulls a button in a rearward direction to release and pivot the heel stop 84 between its up and down positions. The locking button 156 automatically clicks back into one of its locking positions. It should be noted here that the heel stop 84 may alternatively be provided as a member separable from the treadle 54 which can be stored on the base 52, for example, until needed, and then simply inserted into mounting holes in the treadle. [0066] Figures 14A and 14B show the two different positions of the carrying handle 56, which connects to the base 52 and converts between at least these positions - a first position above the treadle 54 and generally perpendicular to the undercarriage 58 of the base (Figure 14A), and a second position out of the way of the treadle 54 and generally parallel to the undercarriage 58 (Figure 14B). As mentioned above, the second position may be preferred by those users who like easy entry and removal of their foot from the foot pedal control 50, especially if the procedure requires constant use of the wings switches 72, On the other hand, some users may prefer the first position with the carrying handle 56 over the treadle 54 to provide a measure of protection from others inadvertently stepping on the control surfaces, or as a means to easily reposition the foot pedal control 50 during a surgical procedure. [0067] Figures 15 and 16 show two different users' feet in the foot pedal control 50 with the carrying handle 56 in its first position above the treadle 54. Even with the carrying handle 56 up, as in Figure 15, the user can easily access the wings switches 72 because of the contours of the handle. More specifically, the carrying handle 56 preferably defines an inverted U-shape with two free ends 160 that mount to the base 52 and pivot about a common axis parallel but offset with respect to a plane defined by the undercarriage 58 of the base. Curvilinear side struts 162 are shaped to be convex in the anterior direction to arc out of the way of side movement of the user's foot. That is, a relief area provided by the arcuate side struts 162 facilitates sideways movement of the user's foot when attempting to actuate the wings switches 72 or otherwise remove the foot from the treadle 54. Figure 16 illustrates another use of the carrying handle 56 when it is in its first or up position. Namely, the user can reposition the entire foot pedal control 50 by lifting it with his or her foot on the underside of the carrying handle 56. The convertible carrying handle 56 thus provides enhanced flexibility for the foot pedal control 50. [0068] Although two primary positions of carrying handle 56 are shown, it may be adapted to be secured in other positions. In a preferred embodiment, one or more locking detents secure the carrying handle 56 in various discrete positions. For example, the illustrated embodiment shows a lock/release button 164 extending outward from each of the free ends 160 of the carrying handle 56. Desirably, the user depresses both of the buttons 164 inward against a spring bias to release the carrying handle 56 for conversion between various positions. Although not shown, those of skill in the art will understand that various depressions or grooves may be provided on the side of the base 52 with which inner ends of the buttons 164 register at the discrete stop positions. Although only one button 164 is needed to lock the carrying handle 56, two buttons requires both hands to operate and may help prevent inadvertently trapping a finger or other appendage between the pivoting handle 56 and the base 52. [0069] Figures 17A and 17B show two different methods of carrying the foot pedal control 50 with the carrying handle 56 in raised and lowered positions, respectively. As mentioned previously, with the carrying handle 56 in its raised position the foot pedal control 50 may be repositioned short distances with the user's foot. However, the entire unit may be easily lifted and move to a different area in the operating room with the handle 56 in the up position of Figure 17B, especially if it is a wireless unit. Alternatively, a user can carry the foot pedal control 50 with the handle 56 converted to lie parallel to the undercarriage of the base 52, as in Figure 17A, which results in a lower overall profile, typical for storage. One version of the foot pedal control 50 weighs between 10-11 lbs. [0070] Figures 18A and 18B show an alternative foot pedal control treadle 170 having articulated laterally-adjustable guides 172. Each of the guides 172 includes a first segment 174 pivo tally mounted to a treadle 176, and a second segment 178 pivo tally mounted to the first segment 174. In the illustrated embodiment, the first segments 174 are mounted to rotate at about a midpoint of the anterior/posterior dimension of the treadle 176 and extend in an anterior direction, while the second segments 178 extend farther in an anterior direction. Of course, this orientation could be reversed with the anterior segments 178 mounted to the treadle 176. Indeed, there are numerous possible arrangements of articulated guides with a plurality of adjustable segments, the illustrated embodiment being necessarily representative. [0071] As with the earlier-described guides 80, the combination of the first and second adjustable segments 174, 178 defines an S-shape with both convex and concave regions on their inner faces that conform to different areas of users' feet. In addition, because of the separately pivotal segments 174, 178, an even greater range of adjustment is possible. [0072] In one embodiment, each of the first and second adjustable segments 174, 178 rotates about a pivot point and may be locked in a plurality of different angular rotations. For example, Figure 18B shows each second adjustable segment 178 in phantom to illustrate a pivot shaft 180 as well as two stop pins 182. The stop pins 182 may be spring-biased toward a plurality of depressions 184 formed in a circular array on flanges 186 of the corresponding first adjustable segment 174. In this way, each second adjustable segment 178 may be incrementally rotated about the pivot shaft 180 with the stop pins 182 falling into the depressions 184 and nominally holding the second adjustable segment relative to the first adjustable segment 174. Although the force required to rotate the second adjustable segment 178 is relatively small it may be sufficient as the user's foot typically presses down on the (rubber- lined) treadle 176, creating friction, and thus does not apply large lateral forces against the guides 172. However, other arrangements that provide more positive locks to the positions of the first and second adjustable segments 174, 178 may be utilized. For example, the mechanism may require the user to press axially downward on the respective segments to unlock them for rotation. [0073] While the present foot pedal control may be used in various environments and applications, a particularly useful application is in an ocular surgical system such as a phacoemulsification/vitrectomy system. For instance, Figure 19 illustrates an exemplary phacoemulsification/vitrectomy system 200 in a functional block diagram to show the components and interfaces for a safety critical medical instrument system in which the foot pedal control disclosed herein may be utilized. [0074] A serial communication cable 202 connects a graphical user interface (GUI) host 204 and instrument host 206 for the purposes of controlling the surgical instrument host 206 by the GUI host 204. The instrument host 206 may be considered a computational device in the arrangement shown, but other arrangements are possible. A switch module associated with an exemplary foot pedal 208, such as described herein, transmits control signals relating internal physical and virtual switch position information as input to the instrument host 206 over a serial communications cable 210, or wirelessly if desired. Instrument host 206 may provide a database file system for storing configuration parameter values, programs, and other data saved in a storage device (not shown). In addition, the database file system may be realized on the GUI host 204 or any other subsystem (not shown) that could accommodate such a file system. [0075] The system 200 has a hand-held operative tip 212 that typically includes a needle and electrical means, such as a piezoelectric crystal, for ultrasonic ally vibrating the needle. The instrument host 206 supplies power on line 214 to the operative tip 212. An irrigation fluid source 216 can be fluidly coupled to operative tip 212 through line 218. The irrigation fluid and ultrasonic power are applied by the operative tip 212 to an eye 220, or other affected area or region. Alternatively, the irrigation source may be routed to the eye 220 through a separate pathway independent of the handpiece. Aspiration is provided to the eye 220 by one or more pumps (not shown), such as a peristaltic pump and/or venturi pump, via the instrument host 206, through lines 222 and 224. A surgeon/operator may select an amplitude of electrical pulses either using the handpiece, via the instrument host and GUI host, using the foot pedal, and/or voice command. [0076] An interface communications cable 226 connects to the instrument host 206 for distributing instrument sensor/parameter data 228, and may include distribution of instrument settings and parameter information, to other systems, subsystems and modules within and external to instrument host 206. Although shown connected to the instrument host 206, interface communications cable 226 may be connected or realized on any other subsystem (not shown) that could accommodate such an interface device able to distribute the respective data. [0077].

ADJUSTABLE FOLDING BAG WITH SELF-CENTERING HANDLE BACKGROUND OF THE INVENTION [0001] The present invention relates to flexible containers, and in particular to a carrying bag that is adjustable in volume and has adjustable self-centering handles. The carrying bag of the present invention can be used in various embodiments as an adjustable gift bag, a shopping bag, a purse and in a variety of other container configurations in which variations in volumetric capacity and a convenient carrying handle are desirous. [0002] Carrying bags of a wide variety of shapes, styles and sizes have long been used to carry items from one place to another. The contents of these containers vary widely and most containers are not customized to handle variations in the size of the cargo, particularly inexpensive carrying bags made of paper such as gift bags and shopping bags. Traditionally, gifts from one person to another are wrapped in a decorative manner to provide a visually exciting and pleasing appearance, retain an element of mystery as to the identity of the gift, and sometimes to enhance the prestige of the gift itself. A trend is to place gifts inside decorative bags, with the bag itself serving as both container and decorative wrapper. Thus, gifts placed in gift bags need not be first placed in another box and then wrapped before presentation. However, because the gift is not truly hidden when received and the bag is not generally sized for the gift inside, the bag does not appear to be customized for the particular gift, detracting from its presentation and from the thrill and anticipation of receiving the gift. It would be desirable if the gift bag were closed so as to conceal the gift inside and adjustable in size so that the bag would appear customized for the gift inside. It would also be desirable if an inexpensive handle could be provided on the bag that was self adjusting for conveniently carrying the closed gift laden bag regardless of the size to which the bag had been formed. [0003] In other instances, it also would be beneficial to have a closeable inexpensive container such as a paper bag and be able to change the dimension of the container to match the size of its contents for security and/or aesthetic purposes. For example, a department store type bag is normally an open, one-sized bag for carrying merchandise. Even if the bag can be closed manually and wrapped around itself, there is no convenient way to pick up the wrapped bag because the fixed loop handle typically provided on such bags either becomes covered by the upper portion of the wrapped bag or, if exposed, is not properly positioned for conveniently carrying the wrapped bag and its contents. As will be seen, there is a widespread need in multiple applications for a variable-sized, closeable container that can conceal and better protect the merchandise contained therein and that can be easily carried by a properly positioned handle. BRIEF SUMMARY OF THE INVENTION [0004] The carrying bag of the present invention is volumetrically adjustable in that the open upper portions of the front and rear panels of the bag can be pressed together and folded over and about the object (s) within the bag such that the upper portion of the rear panel is disposed adjacent and over the upper portion of the front panel. The two panels may then be secured against a lower portion of the front panel to maintain the bag in a closed and folded disposition. The location of the fold is at the option of the user and may depend upon the size and shape of the object (s) within the bag. By providing an adjustable securement that allows for variations in the positioning of the fold, the bag is rendered volumetrically adjustable. The carrying bag also is provided with a pair of laterally spaced, parallel, vertical slits in the rear panel through which the handle extends. The slits allow for the handle to be freely slideable upwardly and downwardly along the rear container panel and are of sufficient length such that almost regardless of the location of the fold along the bag, the bag handle, when used to carry the bag, always will position itself at the top of the bag, allowing for easy carrying. BRIEF DESCRIPTION OF THE DRAWINGS [0005] Figure 1 is a rear perspective view of a first embodiment of the present invention illustrating the bag in the open position. [0006] Figure 2 is a front perspective view of the first embodiment of the present invention illustrating the bag in the open position. [0007] Figure 3 is a front perspective view of the first embodiment after the upper open ends of the front and rear panels have been pressed together. [0008] Figure 4 is a front perspective view of the first embodiment after the upper end portions of the front and rear panels have been pressed together into an adjacent disposition and partially folded toward the front panel to close the container about the object (s) contained therein. [0009] Figure 5 is a front perspective view of the first embodiment showing the container folded and sealed about the object (s) therein with the adjacent upper end portions of the front and rear panels secured in place over the portion of the front panel disposed below the fold and the self-adjusting handle positioned at the top of the bag. [0010] Figure 6 is a rear perspective view of the first embodiment in the folded and sealed disposition of Figure 5. [0011] Figure 7 is a cross-sectional view taken along line 7-7 in Figure 1. [0012] Figure 8 is a front perspective view of the first embodiment of the present invention similar to that shown in Figure 5 except that the front and rear panels are folded over further down the bag to encase a lesser volume. [0013] Figure 9 is a rear perspective view of the first embodiment in the folded and sealed disposition of Figure 8. [0014] Figure 10 is a front perspective view of an embodiment of the present invention utilizing snaps to close the bag and to secure the bag in a folded position. [0015] Figure 11 is a front perspective view of an embodiment of this invention utilizing magnets to close the bag and to secure the bag in a folded position. [0016] Figure 12 is a front perspective view of an embodiment of this invention with a strip attached to the back panel that secures the bag in a folded position. [0017] Figure 13 is a front perspective view of the embodiment illustrated in Figure 12 after the bag has been closed, folded and secured, with the adjustable handle positioned at the top of the bag. [0018] Figure 14 is a rear perspective view of an embodiment of this invention with a flap attached along the back panel that secures the bag in a folded position. [0019] Figure 15 is a front perspective view of the embodiment illustrated in Figure 14 after the bag has been closed, folded and secured, with the adjustable handle position at the top of the bag. [0020] Figure 16 is a rear perspective view of another embodiment of the present invention. [0021] Figure 17 is a front perspective view of an embodiment of the present invention employing a modified form of self-adjusting handle. [0022] Figure 18 is a front perspective view of an embodiment of the present invention employing another modified form of self-adjusting handle. DESCRIPTION OF THE PREFERRED EMBODIMENT [0023] Referring now in detail to the drawings, the embodiment of the present invention shown in Figures 1-9 is a foldable paper bag 10 of the type used as a gift bag or shopping bag. Bag 10 has an open upper end 12 and preferably defines a rear panel 14, a front panel 16, side panels 18 and 20 and a plurality of fold lines 22-48 (see Fig. 2) that allow the bag 10 to be collapsed in a flat disposition as is typical in the formation of gift or shopping bags. It is to be understood, however, that bag 10 also could be formed of cardboard, canvas, leather, plastic, cloth or any other suitable material and that the folds are not all necessary for the proper functioning of the present invention. [0024] The rear panel 14 of bag 10 has a pair of laterally spaced elongated openings or slits 50 and 52 on the outside surface of the bag. A handle 54, preferably in the form of a closed loop, extends through the openings and about the portion 53 of the rear panel disposed between opening 50 and 52 (see e.g. Figs. 1 and 2), affixing the handle to the bag and allowing the handle to slide freely upwardly and downwardly along the rear side of the bag. The handle 54 is preferably made of a loop of string or rope for a gift or shopping bag application, but may be made of any suitable material, including but not limited to leather, metal and plastic, etc., depending on the particular application. For example, if the bag configuration in which the present invention was being employed was a purse or tote bag, the handle would more preferably be made of leather, plastic, rope or a fabric as opposed to string. The actual thickness and configuration of the handle also may vary depending on the application. [0025] To prevent the handle from tangling with and possible dislodging the bag's contents, a second layer 56 of material, preferably the same material of which the bag 10 is formed, can be provided on the interior of the bag inwardly adjacent openings 50 and 52, the portion 53 of the bag extending therebetween, and the portion of the handle 54 extending about portion 53 (see Figs. 1 and 7) . This second protective layer 56 may be adhered to the rear panel 14 by adhesive, stitching or any other suitable means, depending on the material or materials of which the bag 10 is formed. Layer 56 is preferably secured about its perimeter so as not to interfere with the sliding movement of the handle 54. If desired, the openings or slits 50 and 52 may be reinforced along the perimeter edges 50' and 52' thereof (see Figs. 5 and 6) to prevent the handle from ripping through the bag during use. Further, if desired additional slits or openings (not shown) could be provided in the rear bag panel 14 for aesthetic purposes and/or to accommodate one or more additional slideably mounted handles. [0026] In the embodiment illustrated in Figures 1-9, a pair of fasteners or securement members 60 are provided on opposed sides of the rear panel proximate the upper ends thereof for securing the bag in a closed, folded disposition. The fastening members 60 could be adhesive strips, flexible plastic tabs, snaps, magnets, hook and pile fasteners or any other attachment means that would achieve the desired securement . For gift and shopping bag applications adhesive strips secured to the rear bag panel 14, as shown, with peel- away coverings protecting the adhesive on the cantilevered portions 60' of the strips provides an inexpensive and effective securement. [0027] The use of bag 10 is illustrated in Figures 3-6 and 8 and 9. After the open bag 10 (see Figs. 1 and 2) has been filled with one or more items, the bag 10 can be closed by manually pinching together the upper end portions 16a and 14a of the front and rear panels 16 and 14 so that the top edge portions of the front and rear panels are proximate to each other (see Fig. 3) . The upper portions of the front and rear panels below upper ends 14a and 16a also are pressed together above the item(s) within the bag 10 (see Fig. 4) and the upper panel portions are then folded toward and against the front panel 16 from the position illustrated in Figure 4 to the position illustrated in Figure 5, forming a fold 62 that extends across the top of the bag 10 about a horizontal axis X as seen in Figure 5. The fastening members are now positioned below or downstream of the fold 62 and act to secure the bag in the folded position. In the embodiment of the securement members 60 shown in Figures 1-6, the adhesive strips are pressed against adjacent portions of the side panels 18 and 20 (see Fig. 6) to secure the bag in its folded disposition. With other forms of fastening means, such as snaps, magnets, buttons, hook and pile fasteners, etc. the attachment point or area for the securement members may be on adjacent points or areas on the front panel itself as opposed to the side panels (see e.g. Figs. 10 and 11) . As noted above, any suitable attachment mechanism can be employed for securing the bag in its folded position. [0028] As seen in the drawings, the handle 54 is adjustable as a result of its freedom to slide along elongated openings 50 and 52 about the portion 53 of the rear panel 14 disposed therebetween. By positioning the upper ends 50' ' and 52 ' ' of the openings 50 and 52 (see Fig. 1) proximate the upper open end of bag 10 and extending the openings downwardly a distance equal to or just slightly less than one-half the height of the bag, the handle openings will always intersect the formed fold 62. As a result, regardless of the elevation of the horizontal axis X about which fold 62 is formed to encase different volumetric sizes, the handle can slide to the top of the folded bag for carrying. Accordingly, when the user lifts the bag and its contents using the handle 54, the handle will slide to the fold 62 at the top of the bag where the handle is properly centered for carrying the bag. This is illustrated in comparing Figures 5 and 6 with Figures 8 and 9. Figures 8 and 9 illustrate the bag 10 folded over and onto itself such that the top edge portions of the front and rear panels are proximate to the bottom of the bag. While the elevation of the axis X about which the fold 62 is formed is lower in this configuration than the elevation of the axis X illustrated in Figure 5, the handle 54 still slides to the top center of the bag along elongated openings 50 and 52 into the ideal position for carrying. In this position, the volume of the bag is at its smallest unless the upper adjacent ends of the front and rear panels were folded about the bottom of the bag. In such an embodiment, the openings would be extended further down the rear panel to accommodate the further reduction in volumetric carrying capacity. Other variations in the length and positioning of openings 50 and 52 could be employed depending on the maximum and minimum volumes for which the bag is designed to encase. [0029] As noted earlier herein, there are several different types of closures that could be utilized to close and secure the bag in the folded position. Figure 10 illustrates an embodiment of the invention wherein a pair of laterally- spaced snaps 160a are provided on the upper end portions 16a of the front panel 16 that are adapted to cooperate with one of several sets of snaps 160b positioned at various elevations along the exterior side of the front panel below and in vertical alignment with snaps 160a. To close and secure the bag, one would pinch the top edge portions of the bag together, press the upper portions of the front and rear panels together and then fold the bag with the handle facing outwardly, as previously explained with reference to Figures 3-5. The snaps 160a are then engaged with the appropriate pair of aligned cooperating snaps 160b. As with the previous embodiments, the handle will slide to the top of the bag for easy carrying. [0030] Figure 11 shows another form of closure, wherein magnets are employed both to close the upper end of the bag and to secure the bag in the folded position. The concept is similar to the snap configuration illustrated in Figure 10, but additionally provides a means for securing the bag in the folded state. As seen in Figure 11, magnets 260a and 260b are provided proximate the upper ends of the front and rear bag panels. Those magnets are oriented to effect closure of the upper end of the bag. After the bag has been closed and folded (not shown) , magnets 260a can cooperate with any of the appropriately aligned sets of pairs of lower magnets 260c to hold the bag in the folded disposition. The configuration of magnet fasteners illustrated in Figure 11 not only holds the bag in a folded disposition by maintaining the upper portion of the front panel 16 against the lower portion of the front panel, it also holds the ends of the bag together in a closed disposition. It should be noted, however, that additional sets of opposed and cooperating snaps could be provided in the interior of the bag illustrated in Figure 10 proximate the upper ends of the front and rear bag panels to secure the upper panel ends together in the folded position so as to enhance the appearance of the bag in the folded position as is achieved by magnets 260a and 260b in Figure 11. Again, other fastening members could be employed in lieu of the above-discussed pre- applied adhesive strips, snaps and magnets. Examples of such closures include but are not limited to: hook and pile fasteners, buttons, ribbons, twine, hooks, and buckles, etc. While the number and positioning of the fastening members can be varied in all of these embodiments, the fastening members, regardless of their structure, should be positioned in a manner that allows them to fold and close the bag at different elevations to provide the bag with an adjustable interior capacity for differently sized contents. [0031] Figures 12 and 13 illustrate an alternative way to close the bag and to secure the bag in a folded position. In this embodiment, the fastening members 360 are comprised of a separate strap or length of material 360a attached to and extending from the back panel and a series of complimentary vertically-spaced fastening members 360b positioned on the front panel in vertical alignment with strap 360a. Figure 13 illustrates the bag secured in the folded position. Through such a configuration, the bag can be secured in various folded positions by connecting the strap 360a to any one different complimentary fastening members 360b on the front panel. Straps 360a could have a buttonhole formed therein for receiving the fastening members 360b or have a mating fastening member secured thereto for attachment with any one of the aligned fastener members 360b. Again, more than one strap 360a and a single column of complementary fastening members 360b could be employed. [0032] Figures 14 and 15 illustrate a similar embodiment to the one shown in Figures 12 and 13 wherein the attachment strap extends along the upper edge of the rear panel to form a flap 460a. The flap 460a could carry a pair of fastening members 460b for selective engagement with one of the aligned pairs of fastening members 460c located on the front panel of the bag. Figure 14 shows such a bag in a folded state. The number and positioning of the fasteners on flap 460a, the number of sets of fasteners 460c and the number of fasteners 460c in each set could be increased or decreased as desired. [0033] The embodiments of the invention depicted in Figures 12-15 each contain an additional piece of material (e.g. strap or flap) extending from the rear bag panel. Depending on the length of the extended material, the bag may be able to be secured in a closed disposition without being folded over itself. In such a case, the laterally-spaced elongated openings may be extended to the upper edge of the back panel in the case of the thin strap 360a illustrated in Figures 12 and 13 or into the extended flap 460a in the case of the embodiment illustrated in Figures 14 and 15 in order for the handle to be adjustable to be positioned at the top of the bag in an unfolded disposition or at the fold in the manner previously described. [0034] In the above-described embodiments, the invention has been described in terms of a bag with front, rear and side panels. However, the bag or other container embodying the present invention does not require the use of panels. An embodiment of the present invention may comprise a bag that has no panels but is still capable of being folded and secured at different positions and is provided with an outwardly extending slidable and self-centering handle. As indicated earlier herein, while the above-described embodiments made specific reference to gift and shopping bags, the invention is not so limited. The present invention has many other applications including but not limited to: an adjustable purse; an adjustable tote bag or luggage, allowing a traveler who might start the trip with a few items but need to add or remove items during the trip the ability to expand or retract the bag to fit the contents; an adjustable lunch food bag (bigger at the beginning of the day, wrapped smaller for end of the day after lunch has been eaten) ; an adjustable gym bag; a picnic bag; and a utility bag. These containers may or may not contain panels but are nevertheless closable as above-described and are provided with the self-centering handle of the present invention . [0035] In a variation of the present invention illustrated in Figure 16, an additional strip 553 of material, preferably of the same material as that of which the bag is formed, is stitched at 555 or, is adhesively or otherwise suitably attached to the exterior of the rear panel 514 of the bag in lieu of the elongated openings 50 and 52 in the prior embodiments. Thus, in the embodiment of Figure 16, the handle 54 would extend about strip 555 so as to be slidable therealong, as opposed to extending through openings 50 and 52 and about the panel portion 53 disposed therebetween. This embodiment of the present invention seemingly would be better suited for applications other than paper gift and shopping bags such as purses, tote bags and the like. [0036] Figure 17 illustrates a modification of the self-adjusting handle employable in the present invention and particularly adapted for use with both bags formed of paper to enhance the structural integrity of the bag when used to carry heavier objects. With foldable paper bags such as gift bags or shopping bags, the flap or portion 53 of the bag between the elongated openings 50 and 52 about which the handle 54 extends (see, e.g., Figs. 1 and 2) can tear under a heavy load as the handle tends to pull the two sides of portion 53 toward each other. The same can occur in fabric bags and this modification could also be employed with bags formed of a fabric material. It could also be employed in canvas, leather or plastic bags or in a purse or tote bag configuration. In the modified handle configuration of Figure 17, an elongated rigid support member 80 is provided interiorly of the bag as seen therein. Support member 80 is preferably provided with a pair of apertures or other fastening members 82 thereon that preferably are spaced apart at least a distance equal to the width of slits 50 and 52. Handle 54a is of finite length and the end portions thereof preferably extend through openings 50 and 52 and are secured to the support member 80 utilizing apertures 82 or the other fastening members provided thereon. In the embodiment illustrated in Figure 17, the end portions of handle 54a are extended through apertures 82 and knotted. Alternatively, the end portions of the handle could extend through the openings 50 and 52 and apertures 82 and be joined together interiorly of the bag. In either case, the handle will tend to pull straight up, even under a heavy load, thereby inhibiting the tearing of the portion 53 of the bag about which the handle extends. If desired, a second layer 56 ' of material can be provided on the interior of the bag inwardly adjacent openings 50 and 52 and the rigid support member 80, similar to layer 56 shown in Figures 1 and 2. Again, the second protective layer 56' may be adhered to the rear panel of the bag by adhesive, stitching or any other suitable means, depending on the material or materials of which the bag is formed. Layer 56' is preferably secured about its perimeter so as to not interfere with the sliding movement of the handle. In a modification of the embodiment illustrated in Figure 17, the support member 80 could extend behind the flap or bag portion 53 but adjacent the outer or exterior surface of the bag laterally adjacent openings 50 and 52. [0037] Figure 18 illustrates a modified form of a self- adjusting handle in accordance with the present invention that is particularly adapted for use on a leather or cloth bag. It could also be used on and is illustrated in Figure 18 on a foldable bag made of paper. In this embodiment of the handle, a rigid support member 90 is employed in the form of a relatively flat oval. Support member 90 could be formed of wood, metal, plastic or other suitable rigid material and extends about portion 53 of the bag between the elongated openings 50 and 52 in the same manner as the handle 54 shown in Figures 1-15. A flexible handle 54b is then preferably attached to support member 90 as shown in Figure 18. The handle attachment is preferably on the exterior of the bag as illustrated. The support member 90 is free to slide up and down the leather or fabric tunnel flap 53 but should fit sufficiently snuggly about the flap to prevent the support member 90 from turning thereon. With the two ends of the handle 54b attached to opposite end portions of the support member 90, lifting the bag by means of handle 54b will cause the support member 90 to pull straight up along the flap when in use, thereby allowing for a greater weight in the bag without the risk of ripping the flap. It is to be understood that other embodiments of support members could be utilized in cooperation with the flap or bag portion 53 and handle to inhibit tearing of bag portion 53 under a heavy load. [0038] Although the present invention has been described by way of exemplary embodiments, it should be understood that many changes and modifications may be made by those skilled in the art in carrying out the present invention without departing from the spirit and the scope thereof, as those changes and modifications are within the purview of the appended claims, they are considered to be part of the present invention. Next Patent: RADIO COMMUNICATION STATION AND RADIO COMMUNICATION DEVICE, AND METHODS OF OPERATING SAME.

logging in or signing up Tropsha 4 5 0557 Category: Entertainment License: All Rights Reserved Like it (0) Dislike it (0) Added: November 24, 2007 This Presentation is Public Favorites: 0 Presentation Description No description available. Comments Posting comment... Premium member Presentation Transcript Quantitative Genotype Phenotype Relationships (QGPR): Can we learn from Quantitative Structure Activity Relationships (QSAR) modeling?: Quantitative Genotype Phenotype Relationships (QGPR): Can we learn from Quantitative Structure Activity Relationships (QSAR) modeling? Alexander Tropsha, Sasha Golbraikh, Scott Oloff, Raed Khashan Laboratory for Molecular Modeling School of Pharmacy The unbearable lightness of “predictive” modelingThe relationship between target property and attributes (descriptors): The relationship between target property and attributes (descriptors) Objects Target Property Attributes (Descriptors) Comp.1 Value1 D1 D2 D3 D4 Comp.2 Value2 " " " " Comp.3 Value3 " " " " Comp.N ValueN " " " " - - - - - - - - - - - - - - {TP} = K{Attributes} ^Predictive biological data modeling: focus on validation : Predictive biological data modeling: focus on validation QSPR is an empirical data modeling exercise: Choice of statistical data modeling techniques Choice of descriptor types VALIDATE both internally and externally Non-linear methods with variable selection using stochastic optimization techniques to determine context-dependent descriptors Integrated workflow for predictive QSPR modeling Some simple validation techniques and (an example of) the applicability domain definition Examples of studies in QSPR and QGPR areas IT issuesComponents of QSPR Modeling : Components of QSPR Modeling Target properties Continuous (e.g., weight) Categorical unrelated (e.g., different phenotypes) Categorical related (e.g., subranges described as classes) Descriptors (or independent variables) Continuous (allows distance based similarity) Categorical related (allows distance based similarity) Categorical unrelated (genotypes; special similarity metrics) Correlation methods (with and w/o variable selection) Linear (e.g., LR, MLR, PCR, PLS) Non-linear (e.g., kNN, RP, ANN, SVM) Validation and prediction Internal (training set) vs. external (test set)Slide5: VARIABLE SELECTION kNN QSAR* Randomly select a subset of descriptors (HDP) Select the best QSAR model for nvar and K SIMULATED ANNEALING LEAVE-ONE-OUT CROSS-VALIDATION Exclude a compound Predict activity ŷ of the excluded compound as the weighted average of activities of 1 to K nearest neighbors Calculate the predictive ability (q2) of the “model” Modify descriptor subset *Zheng, W. and Tropsha, A. JCICS., 2000; 40; 185-194Slide6: Predictive R2 versus cross-validated R2(q2) for QSAR models with q2>0.5. using common definition (e.g., [3]) of training and test sets. Training set: compounds 1-21 Test set: compounds 22-31 Training set: compounds 1-12 and 23-31 Test set: compounds 13-22 BEWARE OF q2!!! (Golbraikh & Tropsha, J. Mol. Graphics Mod. 2002, 20, 269-276. ) 31 Cramer steroids [1] (Benchmark to investigate novel QSAR methods [2]) 1. Cramer, R.D. III, Patterson, D.E., Bunce, J.D. Comparative molecular field analysis (CoMFA). 1. Effect of shape on binding of steroids to carrier proteins. J. Am.Chem.Soc. 1988, 110, 5959-5967 2. Coats, E.A. The CoMFA steroids as a benchmark data set for development of 3D QSAR methods. In 3D QSAR in Drug Design. V.3. Kubinyi, H., Folkers, G., Martin, Y.C., Eds. Kluwer/ESCOM:Dordrecht, 1998, pp 199-213. 3. Kubinyi, H.; Hamprecht, F.A. & Mietzner, T. Three-Dimensional Quantitative Similarity-Activity Relationships (3D QSiAR) from SEAL Similarity Matrices, J. Med. Chem., 1998, 41, 2553 – 2564. COMPONENTS OF PREDICTIVE QSAR MODELING WORKFLOW*: COMPONENTS OF PREDICTIVE QSAR MODELING WORKFLOW* Model Building: Combination of various descriptor sets and variable selection data modeling methods (Combi-QSAR) Model Validation Y-randomization Training and test set selection Applicability domain Evaluation of external predictive power *Tropsha, A., Gramatica, P., Gombar, V. The importance of being earnest:… Quant. Struct. Act. Relat. Comb. Sci. 2003, 22, 69-77. Activity randomization: Activity randomization Struc.1 Struc.2 Struc.n . . Pro.1 Struc.3 . . Pro.2 Pro.3 Pro.n RATIONAL SELECTION OF MULTIPLE TRAINING AND TEST SETS*: RATIONAL SELECTION OF MULTIPLE TRAINING AND TEST SETS* *Golbraikh et al., J. Comp. Aid. Mol. Design 2003, 17, 241–253. Slide10: DEFINING THE APPLICABILITY DOMAIN Training set: 60 compounds Test set: 35 compounds MODEL: Two nearest neighbors The number of descriptors: 8 Q2(CV)=0.57 R2 =0.67 DISTANCES: <D>train=0.287 StDev(D)train=s =0.149 Closest nearest neighbors of test set compounds: Dtest ≤ <D>train+ s ZCutOff (ZCutOff=0.5) N is the total number of distances ( Ntrain=60 2=120; Ntest=70 ) Ni is the number of distances in each category (bin)Slide11: Criteria for Predictive QSAR Model. Correlation coefficient Coefficients of determination Regression Regression through the origin CRITERIAQSPR modeling process revisited: QSPR modeling process revisited GENET- GENOM- PROTEOM- BIOINFORMAT- MEDINFORMAT- CHEMOGENOM- CHEMOINFORMAT- PROTEOCHEMOMETR- -ICS “-ics” – an old Latin suffix that means “way too much” COMBINATORIAL QSPRomics, or C-QicsCOMBINATORIAL QSPRomics: COMBINATORIAL QSPRomics C-Qics KNN KNN (MML) BINARY QSAR,… BINARY QSAR,… COMFA descriptors COMFA descriptors Molconn Molconn Z Z descriptors descriptors Chirality descriptors Chirality descriptors Volsurf Volsurf descriptors descriptors Comma descriptors Comma descriptors MOE descriptors MOE descriptors Dragon descriptors Dragon descriptors SAR Dataset SAR Dataset Compound representation Compound representation Selection of best models Selection of best models Model validation Model validation using using external test external test set set and and Y Y - - Randomization Randomization QSAR model QSAR model in in g g SVM SVM (MML) DECISION TREE DECISION TREEPredictive QSAR Workflow: Only accept models that have a q2 > 0.6 R2 > 0.6, etc. Multiple Training Sets Validated Predictive Models with High Internal & External Accuracy Predictive QSAR Workflow Original Dataset Multiple Test Sets Combi-QSAR Modeling Split into Training and Test Sets Activity Prediction Y-Randomization Database ScreeningSlide15: STructure-Activity Relationships for the Design of Molecules (STARDOM™): WORKFLOW Input Structure File Convert Structures dbtranslate Babel etc. MolconnZ GenAP etc. Generate Descriptors Utility (UNC) Normalize Descriptors Descriptor Generation MolconnZ- ToDescr (UNC) Reformat Descriptors Descriptor formatting Input Descriptor File Input Activity File Train & Test Set Selection SE8 (UNC) Build & Test Models Randomize (UNC) Randomize Activities RWKNN, SAPLS (UNC), etc QSAR Algorithm KNNPredict, SAPLSPred (UNC) etc. Predict Test Set Report & Visualize Results ModStat (UNC) Compile Results Weblab, TSAR, MOE, Spotfire, etc. Visualize Results Database to Screen Screen Database Utility Normalize Descriptors DBMine, KNNPredict, etc. Mine Database TSAR, MOE, Spotfire, etc. Visualize Hits QSAR Model(s) programs functions User input Predictive QSAR workflow as an automated grid application (currently based on IBM’s middleware): Predictive QSAR workflow as an automated grid application (currently based on IBM’s middleware) Browser Portal Server WebSphere Application Server WebSphere Work Flow Java Wrappers Applications run on the Computer Grid kNN SVM’s, etc. kNNPredict, SVMPredict, etc. Relational Database (DB2 or Oracle) File Database (Data Grid) Screening of Compound Databases Visualization Tools (Spotfire, ChemDraw, Chime, etc.) KEY(↔): Initial Model Building Flow Screen Database Flow Data Retrieval and Visualization Slide17: EXAMPLE 1: COMBINATORIAL QSAR OF AMBERGRIS FRAGRANCE COMPOUNDS* Amber, woody, cedarwood, animal, strong Amber woody, camphoraceus, spicy, weak Amber, exotic woody, animal Strong amber Amber woody, sea water Amber, camphoraceus *Kovatcheva A., et al. J. Chem. Inf. Comp. Sci., 2004, 44, 582-95Slide18: TOTAL PREDICTION ACCURACY FOR THE TEST SET USING BEST ACTUAL & RANDOMIZED MODELSExample 3. Consensus QSAR models for the prediction of Ames genotoxicity*: 3,363 diverse compounds (including >300 drugs) tested for their Ames genotoxicity 60% mutagens, 40% non mutagens 148 initial topological descriptors ANN, kNN, Decision Forest (DF) methods 2963 compounds in the training set, 400 compounds (39 drugs) in randomly selected test set Example 3. Consensus QSAR models for the prediction of Ames genotoxicity* *Votano JR, Parham M, Hall LH, Kier LB, Oloff S, Tropsha A, Xie Q, Tong W. Mutagenesis, 2004, 19, 365-77. Comparison of GenTox prediction for 30 drugs in external test set: Comparison of GenTox prediction for 30 drugs in external test setContent-dependent descriptor types identified by different models (LogP was never selected): Content-dependent descriptor types identified by different models (LogP was never selected)Effect of applicability domain on the prediction accuracy of kNN QSAR: Effect of applicability domain on the prediction accuracy of kNN QSARGenomic Butterfly Spot Dataset: Genomic Butterfly Spot Dataset 2000 Data examples with presence or lack of phenotype. 6 developmental loci result in the phenotype. 30 additional loci added as noise HYPOTHESIS: Our well developed QSPR-omics methodologies can be accurately applied to QGPR to identify the developmental locikNN Results (Traditional): kNN Results (Traditional) 70-90% Training set accuracy however phenotypes were predicted differently with identical selected descriptor valuesNew “k”NN for QGPR: New “k”NN for QGPR If more than “k” elements have identical selected descriptors then we average all of those elements rather than the first “k”. ONLY the descriptors c_source and c_thresh were found to be relevantSlide26: SVM Classification Slide27: SVM Classification Descriptors Found Identified by SVM: Descriptors Found Identified by SVMRecursive Partitioning using DTReg: Recursive Partitioning using DTReg Forests using DTReg: Random Forests using DTReg ShuffledDifficult Data Structures to model: Difficult Data Structures to model “k”NN works well SVM-RBF works well Decision Trees: no correlation Random Forest: no correlationCLASSIFICATION ACCURACY CRITERIA AS TARGET FUNCTIONS IN QSAR : CLASSIFICATION ACCURACY CRITERIA AS TARGET FUNCTIONS IN QSAR Alexander Golbraikh April 5, 2005Slide33: 2x2 CONFUSION MATRIX AND MEASURES OF CLASSIFICATION ACCURACY N=A+B+C+D B+D A+C TOTAL C+D D C PREDICTED(-) A+B B A PREDICTED(+) TOTAL ACTUAL(-) ACTUAL(+) Kappa + B/(B+D) False positive rate Enrichment + Odds ratio + D/(B+D) Specificity (Sp) Misclassification rate + A/(A+C) Sensitivity (Ss) Negative predictive power (NPP) (A+D)/N Correct classification rate Positive predictive power (PPP) (B+D)/N Overall diagnostic power + False negative rate (A+C)/N Prevalence Fielding, A.H.; Bell, J.F. Environmental Conservation 1997, 24 (1), 38-49. C/(A+C) A/(A+B) D/(C+D) (B+C)/N (AD)/(BC) AN/[(A+B)(A+C)] {(A+D)/N-[(A+C)(A+B)+(B+D)(C+D)]/N2}/ {1-[(A+C)(A+B)+(B+D)(C+D)]/N2}Slide34: DRAWBACK OF SOME CHARACTERISTICS 100 20 80 Total 34 14 20 Predicted (-) 66 6 60 Predicted (+) Total Actual (-) Actual (+) 28 20 8 Total 16 14 2 Predicted (-) 12 6 6 Predicted (+) Total Actual (-) Actual (+) PPP=60/66=0.91 Prev=80/100=0.80 E=0.91/0.80=1.14 PPP=6/12=0.50 Prev=8/28=0.29 E=0.50/0.29=1.72Slide35: NORMALIZED CONFUSION MATRICES 70/70+340/340 340/340 70/70 Total 28/70+280/340 280/340 28/70 Predicted (-) 42/70+60/340 60/340 42/70 Predicted (+) Total Actual (-) Actual (+) 2 1 1 Total 1.22 0.82 0.40 Predicted (-) 0.78 0.18 0.60 Predicted (+) Total Actual (-) Actual (+) PPP=0.60/0.78=0.77 Prev=1/2=0.50 E=0.77/0.50=1.54 Slide36: THE NORMALIZED CONFUSION MATRIX AND CLASSIFICATION ACCURACY MEASURES + Kappa + B/(B+D) False positive rate + + (AD)/(BC) Odds ratio + D/(B+D) Specificity (Sp) + Misclassification rate + A/(A+C) Sensitivity (Ss) + Negative predictive power (NPP) + Correct classification rate (CCR) + Positive predictive power (PPP) (B+D)/N Overall diagnostic power + C/(A+C) False negative rate (A+C)/N Prevalence 2 1 1 Total C/(A+C)+D/(B+D) D/(B+D) C/(A+C) Predicted(-) A/(A+C)+B/(B+D) B/(B+D) A/(A+C) Predicted(+) Total Actual(-) Actual(+) CLASSIFICATION QSAR:nxn NORMALIZED CONFUSION MATRIX: CLASSIFICATION QSAR: nxn NORMALIZED CONFUSION MATRIX CLASSIFICATION ACCURACY:CONSIDERATIONS: CONSIDERATIONS Many parameters used for evaluation of classification accuracy cannot be used as characteristics of QSAR models, because they depend on the size of each class. These parameters become independent of the size of each class, if they are calculated using normalized confusion matrices. n2-n linearly independent parameters are necessary to fully characterize the performance of classification accuracy algorithms. When we are not interested in the classes to which misclassified compounds are assigned, n diagonal elements of the normalized confusion matrix are sufficient to estimate the algorithm performance. Set of criteria, which good classification models must satisfy, were established. Decision Tree (MOE): data: Decision Tree (MOE): data Dataset 1 and 2 2000 objects, 36 descriptors External test set: 400 objects (used for prediction) Class 1: 200 objects Class 2: 200 objects Training set: 1200 objects (used for learning a tree) Class 1: 600 objects Class 2: 600 objects Internal test set: 400 objects (used for pruning a tree) Class 1: 200 objects Class 2: 200 objectsDecision Tree (MOE): parameters: Protocol: separate test sample Descriptors included: 36 or 34 Node Split Size: 10 Max. Sample Size: 255 Max. Tree Depth: 10 Best Tree Thresh: 1.0 0.8* 0.6* 0.4* Use Priors * With 34 descriptors only Decision Tree (MOE): parametersSlide41: All 36 descriptors The trees included only two descriptors: c_source and c_thresh Prediction accuracy for BOTH DATASETS:* Training+Internal Test sets: 100% External Test set: 100% Decision Tree (MOE): results * Result has been checked using EXCEL: Pairs of c_source and c_thresh values uniquely define object class for whole datasets!Slide42: 34 descriptors: c_source and c_thresh were excluded Prediction accuracy for BOTH DATASETS: BAD Decision Tree (MOE): resultsDecision Tree (MOE): conclusions: Model based on only two descriptors, c_source and c_thresh, predicts the classes with the accuracy of 100%. There are no other important descriptors in the dataset. Decision Tree (MOE): conclusionsSummary: Summary Predictive QSPR workflow affords statistically significant models which can be used directly for database mining. Extensive model validation is a must! Consensus screening is more effective than using single models Model building should be ongoing process concurrent with experimental validation and model enrichment integrated workflows The public has an insatiable curiosity to know everything, except what is worth knowing. Oscar WildeACKNOWLEDGMENTS: ACKNOWLEDGMENTS UNC ASSOCIATES Former: -Stephen CAMMER -Sung Jin CHO -Weifan ZHENG - Min SHEN - Bala KRISHNAMOORTHY Protein structure group: John GRIER Luke HUAN Ruchir SHAH Shuxing ZHANG Shuquan ZONG Peter Itskowitz Funding NIH NSF NCI-BSF Berlex, IBM, MCNC, GSK, Inspire, Millennium, Ortho-McNeil QSAR group: Alex GOLBRAIKH Raed KHASHAN Scott OLOFF Kun Wang Mei Wang Chris Grulke Jun FENG Yun-De XIAO Yuanyuan QIAO Patricia LIMA Assia KOVACHEVA M. KARTHIKEYAN Current You do not have the permission to view this presentation. In order to view it, please contact the author of the presentation.

VBForums > Community > General Discussion / Chit Chat > Paul...Where have you been? PDA Click to See Complete Forum and Search --> : Paul...Where have you been? smh Jan 17th, 2001, 06:47 AM Where have you been the last couple of days? Did you take a long weekend? paulw Jan 17th, 2001, 07:50 AM Noooo..... Friday night was spent mopping up my eldest sons vomit. Sunday night was spent dealing with mine...:( 24 hour bug, but not very nice. Not entirely sure I am over it either.:(:(:( P. smh Jan 17th, 2001, 08:00 AM Sounds pretty bad. Guess you weren't slacking off then..He He So did you get in some quality sick time with your son then? When my son was sick, all he wanted to do was spend time with 'Mom'. We got a lot of 'Elmo' watching done. (He likes anything red) barrk Jan 17th, 2001, 09:20 AM Sorry to hear the family and you aren't doing well. I hope all is well soon. It's not nearly as fun around here without you. You were definitely missed! barrk Jan 17th, 2001, 05:41 PM Just thought I'd bring Paul's thread to the top so he wouldn't have to search next time.... Hi Paul! paulw Jan 18th, 2001, 07:39 AM Hiya. It's quite good fun looking for the replies 12 hours after the fact... Its like reading the news in a newspaper that you heard the day before on the radio... P. smh Jan 18th, 2001, 08:12 AM Good Morning Paul and Katie paulw Jan 18th, 2001, 08:21 AM Katie won't be up yet - the lights won't be on (hehehehe). Good afternoon, sleepy head. P. smh Jan 18th, 2001, 08:30 AM What time do you have there? It's not even 9 here yet. I want to go back to bed. I can tell you that I am not awake yet. paulw Jan 18th, 2001, 09:04 AM As I post, it is 15.05. You Central Time? I think you are 6 hours back. P. barrk Jan 18th, 2001, 09:08 AM Good morning Shanea and Paul...7:12am here. paulw Jan 18th, 2001, 09:19 AM Got to go... See ya. P. barrk Jan 18th, 2001, 09:20 AM Geesh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! smh Jan 18th, 2001, 09:50 AM He didn't even say good morning back! Are you guys on the rocks? You know you can talk to me all about it.... Ha Ha .... I sound like a marriage counselor. barrk Jan 18th, 2001, 10:03 AM I don't know...I think he's just busy. I didn't take it personally. He's a nice friend to chat with...we are just kidding about the affair (I think). But thanks for the offer of the friendly ear! smh Jan 18th, 2001, 10:16 AM Yeah, I'm just role playing. I can be the insane relationship psychiatrist. (I'd be good at that. Four of the couples I have set up with each other have ended up getting married. One was my sister...isn't that nuts!) barrk Jan 18th, 2001, 10:20 AM I try to avoid setting people up...could become complicated if it doesn't work out. Is there any other kind of relationship psychiatrist other than insane??? smh Jan 18th, 2001, 10:53 AM I don't really try to 'set them up', but I have a bunch of people over to my place, and one or the other happens to end up dating. OK, I am setting them up, but they don't know that I am doing it. I introduce them at the party, like I introduce everyone else, and then '*BAM*' they fall in love. Everyone that I have 'introduced' has gotten married in less than a year. Don't you think that is strange? Maybe I have to weird, but cool psychic thing going on? ....And then again...probably not. barrk Jan 18th, 2001, 11:04 AM Could be......my husband, Tom, and I have compared notes and their were several instances (we were both at the same concerts at the same time...etc.)where we could have met but didn't. Obviously it was destined that we be together! smh Jan 18th, 2001, 12:31 PM Same thing here... Mike and I lived in neighboring towns (15 miles apart) the whole time we grew up. We hung around with the same crowd and we were at the same high school parties and senior kegs every year, but we never met. When we both went away to college, we even attended the same school and never met. I finally met him when I picked up a job as a waitress at a Perkins restaurant. We were just working buddies in the beginning. Then, fate tried one more time and we happened to get scheduled to take our Economics class together. Shortly after we started dating. Fate had to try very hard to get us together. Strange, huh? barrk Jan 18th, 2001, 12:35 PM Yep...some things are just meant to be! smh Jan 18th, 2001, 12:47 PM Yeah...I tried to explain that to my mom when I got pregnant before I got married, and she didn't agree. She would never wish that it didn't happen now though. She became an old softy as soon as she saw him for the first time. barrk Jan 18th, 2001, 12:51 PM At least he is there for you and your son....that's what's important. There is nothing quite like holding a newborn child...changes your entire perspective :-) paulw Jan 19th, 2001, 05:26 AM There is nothing quite like holding a newborn child... Except holding two at once:D Hello gals. I said hello to you both in the Post Race, so I thought I didn't need to say hello in here. It's quite nice to have a private little thread. Katie, waddya mean, you THINK I'm kidding about the affair... It's a higher plane, spiritual thing for me <ahem> btw Denise and I met 'cos she was sharing a flat with my sister. My big sis wasn't too pleased at first, but now she's got a friend AND a sister-in-law. Works well. Cheers, P. And yes, I am quite busy at the mo. paulw Jan 19th, 2001, 08:27 AM Hi Gals, Just got to get it to the top so that you can reply. P. smh Jan 19th, 2001, 08:50 AM Hi all.. Just got to work late today. Nothing has gone right so far this morning, so my day can only improve. Yesterday ended up going really well though. Good project review from my clients! paulw Jan 19th, 2001, 09:15 AM And now I have said Good Morning! See. It's getting better already...:):):) Cheers, P. smh Jan 19th, 2001, 09:20 AM OK...It's all better now. barrk Jan 22nd, 2001, 11:45 AM Originally posted by paulw Katie, waddya mean, you THINK I'm kidding about the affair... It's a higher plane, spiritual thing for me <ahem> I'm glad to hear that Paul...you do lift my spirits, I must admit! parksie Jan 22nd, 2001, 01:56 PM As paul lifts something else... :rolleyes: :D And that excess innuendo over...good evening everyone! paulw Jan 22nd, 2001, 06:48 PM Got locked out today, the new front end has knackered my work connection:( P. parksie Jan 23rd, 2001, 12:07 PM Erk... nasty :( paulw Jan 23rd, 2001, 05:31 PM Still Locked Out - V FRUSTRATING!!! P. smh Jan 24th, 2001, 08:34 AM Well....hurry up and fix it! It's way too quite in here. barrk Jan 24th, 2001, 09:21 AM Good Morning everyone! smh Jan 24th, 2001, 09:33 AM Good Morning! Did they turn the heat back on yet? barrk Jan 24th, 2001, 10:24 AM Nope! Today it's raining too. I'm having trouble with my attitude...I wonder why???? smh Jan 24th, 2001, 10:26 AM Um.....No heat.....Barely any electricity.....I don't know....Let me think about it for a while.... barrk Jan 24th, 2001, 11:04 AM At least they haven't made us turn off our coffee pot...so all is not lost! parksie Jan 24th, 2001, 12:09 PM Phew. Could have been a tragedy :eek: smh Jan 24th, 2001, 12:10 PM Well, I'll be out for the rest of the day. I just got back from the DR's and I have bronchitis, so I'm supposed to go home and rest. Talk to you tomorrow. barrk Jan 24th, 2001, 12:10 PM I'm surrounded now by very cold, irritated people with massive overdoses of caffiene.....maybe not such a good thing to still have coffee pots.... barrk Jan 24th, 2001, 12:11 PM Hope you feel better!! Take care, Katie parksie Jan 24th, 2001, 12:16 PM Get well soon, Shanea...you don't want to get married and say "I *hacking cough* do"... ;) smh Jan 25th, 2001, 08:29 AM This better be gone within three months! Actually, the doc prescribed some potent stuff for me and I feel much better today already. I only have three months and three days left until I get married. I have so much stuff to do yet! barrk Jan 25th, 2001, 09:01 AM Glad to hear you're feeling a little better! smh Jan 25th, 2001, 09:07 AM I have to feel better. My little boy's first birthday is a week from today, and I have to put the party together. I have sent invitations, bought the '102 Dalmations' party supplies, and bought his presents, but I still have to take care of the food stuff. He's a spoiled little boy. He got an ELMO's ABC music book, a toddler bed and new '102 Dalmations' bedding, and a new swing-set. (And that was only from his dad and me. We have 35 other people coming to his birthday party next Saturday!) barrk Jan 25th, 2001, 09:08 AM sounds like fun! smh Jan 25th, 2001, 09:35 AM Yeah, but all these people will be in my house. All of Mike's relatives are really snoopy so I will have to scrub everything perfectly clean. Mike's family is very competitive in everything. I have the biggest house out of his entire family, so they will try to find something wrong with it. Wonderful in-laws, huh? I have learned to ignore them mostly, except when they say stuff about my son, like "He's not walking yet?". Mike's sister had a boy eight days before my son and they are always getting compared. This really torks me. All I say is "He will when he's ready. I won't push him to do things until he shows interest himself." They don't like this answer, but tough. I will raise my son how I want to. smh Jan 25th, 2001, 09:36 AM That gave me an idea for a new thread... barrk Jan 25th, 2001, 05:50 PM Where's Paul????????? Still having netscape problems? tumblingdown Jan 26th, 2001, 02:46 AM He still can't get access thru his firewall (or sonething). Morning, btw. td. Gaffer Jan 26th, 2001, 03:08 AM Urrrrgggggggghhhhh.... smh Jan 26th, 2001, 08:34 AM What was that about Gaffer? barrk Jan 26th, 2001, 08:57 AM Good morning all! It's raining!!!!!!!!!!!!!! smh Jan 26th, 2001, 09:00 AM Good morning! It's Friday! barrk Jan 26th, 2001, 09:10 AM And it's payday!!!!!!!!!!! smh Jan 26th, 2001, 09:11 AM Yes it is! barrk Jan 26th, 2001, 09:21 AM How's your bronchitis doing Shanea...better I hope! Gaffer Jan 26th, 2001, 09:25 AM Sorry smh, I was on the liquor with td and Ian last night. Was rough when I posted, now I feel like a warm summer's day... smh Jan 26th, 2001, 11:01 AM I can breath again. That medicine works fast. I still have a little bit of a cough though. barrk Jan 26th, 2001, 11:17 AM Glad to hear you're on the mend at least..... parksie Jan 26th, 2001, 01:00 PM Yep. Very good! And happy friday evening everyone! barrk Jan 26th, 2001, 01:03 PM Hi ya Parksie.....how's it going? smh Jan 26th, 2001, 01:08 PM Hi All! I'm back from dinner. We are having pretty crappy weather here. It's snowing and the winds are bad, so it's almost like a white-out in certain places. Oh, yeah... I suppose most of you people have never seen a white-out though. barrk Jan 26th, 2001, 01:09 PM I used it on my papers a lot in college. smh Jan 26th, 2001, 01:13 PM Well....think of what your white-out did to you papers in college, and that's what the snow's doing to everything in sight outside. barrk Jan 26th, 2001, 01:18 PM Sounds like a good reason to go home to me! parksie Jan 26th, 2001, 01:19 PM White-out...that's where you can't see the ground or the horizon...isn't it? I don't really know...never paid much attention to geography :D barrk Jan 26th, 2001, 01:20 PM How come I can't email you parksie.... [email protected] bombs.... parksie Jan 26th, 2001, 01:23 PM Worked fine for me...and loads of other people have sent messages to that address :confused: Maybe it's your firewall again :( smh Jan 26th, 2001, 01:24 PM Yep, Parksie, you're right. But...we're South Dakotan's...we don't get to leave work early unless there's 10 ft snow drifts across the road. A little white-out....no big deal. Unless we have a chance of dying on the way home, we don't get to leave early. He He barrk Jan 26th, 2001, 01:25 PM I guess the third times the charm...it worked this time. barrk Jan 26th, 2001, 01:27 PM If we get a few flakes we get to go home. My husband didn't have to go to work today because they closed his school over 8 inches of snow! smh Jan 26th, 2001, 01:29 PM I suppose if your not used to driving in it like we are, it would be a death trap to send everyone out in it. Some people just don't know how to drive on the slippery stuff. parksie Jan 26th, 2001, 01:30 PM Even Photoshop said "Invalid header" on that file you sent... :confused: I went through about 6 programs...and none would open it. :eek: barrk Jan 26th, 2001, 01:32 PM It opens fine for me in Microsoft Photo Editor..... I'll try again. Just don't laugh too hard. barrk Jan 26th, 2001, 01:34 PM We moved to Oregon for eight years....I did get experience driving in the stuff but you're right most Southern Californians don't have a clue when it comes to snow. parksie Jan 26th, 2001, 01:37 PM I didn't laugh :) You didn't smile, though :( parksie Jan 26th, 2001, 01:40 PM Originally posted by barrk We moved to Oregon for eight years....I did get experience driving in the stuff but you're right most Southern Californians don't have a clue when it comes to snow. I had a driving lesson in the snow :eek: Not nice :( barrk Jan 26th, 2001, 01:40 PM It was early in the morning...they just said stand in front of that flag and then clicked with no warning....and it was about 30 degrees in the room at the time.... How's that for some excuses??? smh Jan 26th, 2001, 01:41 PM Did you send him a picture of yourself? I want to see! parksie Jan 26th, 2001, 01:42 PM Originally posted by barrk It was early in the morning...they just said stand in front of that flag and then clicked with no warning....and it was about 30 degrees in the room at the time.... How's that for some excuses??? Fair enough...I have a set of passport photos (one from a booth where you get 4)...with 3 photos and one blank :) I sat through two flashes...thought it was one that took 4 photos with two shutter clicks...as it were. Then got out...saw a flash...and dived back in again in time to look totally spaced out for the last photo :D barrk Jan 26th, 2001, 01:44 PM What's your email Shanea? parksie Jan 26th, 2001, 01:45 PM Just noticed...we haven't seen you yet :) Unless you're a cat with a rose, of course :rolleyes: smh Jan 26th, 2001, 01:46 PM I'm looking for a picture of me on my computer here, but I haven't found one yet. I think I have one here somewhere though. My email: [email protected] smh Jan 26th, 2001, 01:52 PM He's right, you didn't smile. He He I still haven't found one of me. I do have one of my son though. You'll have to do with that until I can find one of myself. smh Jan 26th, 2001, 01:59 PM Katie, what is your email address. The email in the profile has been disabled. barrk Jan 26th, 2001, 02:02 PM It's [email protected] parksie Jan 26th, 2001, 02:09 PM Nice pic Shanea...so how did you manage it...did you sew velcro into his clothes? :D:D:D Cute kid, though :) smh Jan 26th, 2001, 02:13 PM I am going to have to send a pic of me next week, because I don't have one saved on my system. I had one here on disk at work, but I must have taken it home. I have a family pic on my desk here, but no scanner available. smh Jan 26th, 2001, 02:15 PM I've been having troubles with your email address, Katie. I just sent it again, so hopefully you will be able to get it this time. smh Jan 26th, 2001, 02:27 PM My son really loves cameras. He poses for me when I take the camera out. I think I have about 20 rolls of film with pictures of him, not including pictures professionally done. parksie Jan 26th, 2001, 04:23 PM Aaahhh...sweet :) I think we've only got 2 good photos of me as a little kid :eek: barrk Jan 26th, 2001, 04:33 PM Did you look like Oswald then too??? parksie Jan 26th, 2001, 04:35 PM Don't think so...I had blond hair then :eek: smh Jan 29th, 2001, 08:38 AM I just sent you guys my family pic. parksie Jan 29th, 2001, 01:43 PM Yep. Got it :) Cute ;) vbforums.com

by J. Kathleen Cheney The monsoon season had blown in a week earlier than forecast, and we sailed out of Madras into the wind. Our sloop-of-war, the HMS Fortitude, sped along at the head of a convoy, chartered to protect India Company ships bound for England. Since the war in the Americas ended, the navy had found few other assignments for us–and little chance for glory. After five long years of herding freighters about the Indian peninsula, we had finally been given orders to return home. How I longed to see England again. My family wrote to me but their letters often went astray, likely arriving in a port we had just left. I knew that I missed many of them. Our patrol route sent us running far ahead of the other ships. In the monsoon season, we usually endured interminable rains and winds fit to drive us onto our side, but in the waters just beyond Ceylon, heading out toward Madagascar, we hit a calm. A thick fog settled about the ship. Her sails hung slack, damp running in rivulets down the sheets. We remained there for hours as the sun set, trapped within our shroud of mist. The calm worried Captain Melstone. He stayed pacing the quarterdeck, waiting for the convoy to come within sight. His spaniel began barking, a hysterical sound over the quiet of the ship. My skin prickled, my nerves rattled by the persistent gloom. Edgy from the stillness, the men whispered that they saw movement in the fog. They flooded to the rail to gaze down into the water. The captain called for calm, and the men returned to their posts. One of the midshipmen carried the dog below decks, its panicked bark barely muffled. That was when I saw the first spear. Arching over the starboard guns, it came from directly below the cannons and caught Lieutenant Hughes in the thigh. Chaos ensued on the deck as men poured over our rails. Natives in longboats had crept close under the cover of fog. I had no time for fear; they came on us so fast. Captain Melstone called the marines onto the spar deck, and the men began releasing the cannons from their confinement in preparation to fire, but to no effect. The natives had already sailed in under our guns. They were islanders, I thought with a dull sense of surprise, far outside their usual trade lanes. I had only a moment to wonder at it, though, for then they were upon the quarterdeck. I recall shooting and reloading again and again. “Lieutenant Davies!” the captain cried out in warning. I jerked about and saw an islander running toward me, the butt end of a spear spinning toward my face. I frantically tried to reload, but could not–not in time.. body rolled, reminding me of a walrus I had seen once off the Gulf of St. Lawrence. I struggled out from under the man and drew myself to my feet, completely unprepared for the sight that greeted me. I had heard nothing from the others because they were all dead. Men lay on the heaving deck, across the guns, caught in the railing. One had been trapped in the rigging, faint pinkish streaks of blood marking the sail. I stood there on the deck in the hard rain–trembling, my mind unable to grasp the carnage before me. The anchor line had been cut. The wheel seemed fixed, as if either tiller or rudder had failed. At full sail, the Fortitude plunged on into the storm and, with the skies veiled, I had no idea of our heading. The storm threw the ship about and I feared being washed overboard. I dared not try lowering the sails. The damage caused by a falling sail might snap the mast, or the sail falling into the sea might drag us over. Having few other options, I tied myself to the quarterdeck railing in the likely futile hope that the Fortitude would carry on in the face of the storm. As it was, I felt fortunate she’d not lain down in the sea, taking me to the bottom with her, and somehow, I slept. When dawn arrived, the skies had cleared, a brilliant day with the sun sparkling off the waters. I untied myself. The ship carried me southeasterly before the gentle winds. The storm had turned her all about. Our course had been southwesterly, headed around the Cape of Good Hope and on toward home. Not in sight of any land, I had no way to determine our location. My face hurt, I realized for the first time. That blow to my head might have fractured my skull for all I knew. The ropes had rubbed my belly raw, an aching expanse of bruised and reddened skin beneath my torn blue jacket and waistcoat. My pantaloons no longer showed the pristine white of His Majesty’s Navy, but a tired red–stained with a mix of blood and offal. For a moment I considered going below decks and changing into a fresh uniform, thinking that Captain Melstone would be in a fury should he see any of the officers in such a state. Suddenly, the ridiculous nature of the thought struck me, and I laughed. Hysteria, I knew, would only lead to death, but it gripped me all the same, and I sank to the deck, racked with terrified sobs. I do not know how long I laid there, prostrate with fear and horror. But I was never one to quit when faced with adversity, and I finally managed to pull myself together. I buttoned my torn waistcoat and jacket best as I could, and attempted to assess the situation. I had no way to judge the ship’s location, so after a moment’s furious thought I set myself to the task I considered most urgent. I searched the ship, thinking there might be others still alive. The Fortitude had carried sixty-nine men and seven officers. I began with the main deck, finding six men dead there. I believed I had seen more bodies before the storm but guessed they had been washed overboard. Most of the dead had been killed by spear or blade, although I noted that one seaman had taken a musket ball to the forehead. I wondered if a long-lived feud with one his mess-mates had taken a nasty turn during the battle, murder being done under the guise of warfare. I searched the captain’s cabin, but found no sign of that gentleman. I expected that Captain Melstone would have stayed on the quarterdeck to the very last. I did find his spaniel, though, the first of the bodies to truly chill my soul. The poor beast had been speared to the cabin wall, its blood running down to stain the sheets of the captain’s bunk. Sickened, I moved below to the gun deck. Water had flooded in through the gunport sills. Not enough to founder the ship, but enough to cause concern. I walked along the bloodied deck, finding two of the other lieutenants there. One had been crushed by a gun come loose from its moorings, the other killed by a spear thrust. Lieutenant Martin and I had been midshipmen together aboard the Dart. I said a prayer over his body, feeling guilty that I had not been down on the gun deck with my fellows. I found twelve of the seamen there. Three of the powder monkeys were dead as well, boys of only eight and nine. Swords or some other bladed weapon had done for most of them. I picked my way through, shocked by the carnage. None cried for aid or for the surgeon, that time already long past while I lay unconscious. Perhaps my dreams had not been dreams at all, I thought. I worked my way through quarters, the officers’ first, where Midshipman Lewis lay dead in his bunk. The marines’ quarters were empty, but I found three of the seamen in their aft quarters. The quartermaster I located in the magazine, killed at his duty station. Strangely, I found none of the natives dead. They must have taken their injured away with them, along with whatever they’d stolen. I checked the stores in the hold, but the islanders had not looted them. Two kegs of water remained sealed, and several barrels of rum. I prayed they were not spoiled. We had taken on supplies in Madras, so there was food to be had, provided it was not all ruined by the bilge. Shaken and worn, I returned to the deck. The Fortitude moved along at a goodly clip, the sails billowing in the breeze. I saw nothing of land or of our convoy. I would not be able to get any bearing at all until night fell. I believed we still sailed easterly and south. By the intervention of Fate, I had become the Fortitude‘s captain. I must, I determined, do my best to bring her back to a friendly port. Our boats were gone, one of the few things I noted that the islanders had taken away with them. Not until I saw an albatross perched on the cathead did I think of my gun, wondering how I might obtain fresh meat. I realized then that it was missing. They were all gone, every last musket and pistol. I hadn’t seen a single one while searching the ship. Nor any knives or swords, I recalled with disgust. The Fortitude had her cannons still, but they were little use to me. One of the larboard guns had spilled over the side in the storm, taking a section of the spar deck railing with it. I rolled Cooky’s body over the edge there, letting the sea take him. Cooky was the last, the largest and hardest to move. Fearing pestilence, I gave them all to the sea, those not taken by the storm, twenty-eight of Fortitude‘s contingent of seventy-six souls, even the spaniel. Sharks followed the vessel, seeking an easy feast. I secured the cannons as best I could. One man alone cannot control those beasts, nor could I hold off any invasion, so I did what I could to keep them from inflicting further damage to the ship. The rains had washed the top deck and the quarterdeck clean, so I set out to clean the reeking bilge from the gun deck and quarters below. I found some bully beef in the galley and ate, feeling hungry for the first time. When evening approached I went to my quarters and undressed to assess my injuries. The raw skin of my stomach and blistered hands I couldn’t help. My shaving mirror showed me a bruised face, one eye reddened where the blood had welled up about the iris. I shaved and dressed in a clean uniform, feeling oddly as if all was right with the world for doing so. I knew that to be untrue, but I felt it all the same. I returned to the quarterdeck and watched the Fortitude‘s sails. I dared not attempt to lower them alone, and the disproportionate weight of the guns on the spar deck unbalanced us already, causing the ship to list a bit to starboard. I found a chart of the Sea of Bengal in the captain’s office; I reasoned that I must have been blown back there. After taking my bearings by the stars, my calculations told me I had gone even farther east, but I confess, navigational skills were never my strong suit, and before long, clouds scudded, hiding the stars and the full moon. Days and days passed in this manner, and my calculations hinted that we sailed past Java and would soon be heading through the islands of the East Indies. I reckoned that should I spot land I would have a difficult decision to make–whether to stay with the ship or to strike out for an unknown shore. Without boats, I must swim. Sharks still followed us, a fact I duly considered in my decision. After studying the charts, I knew that I must be nearing the northern coast of Australia. I couldn’t move the ship’s wheel, so I cut the wheel-cables, thinking to shift the tiller manually and make south for Sydney. It made no difference, however, for I could not move that either. The rudder remained fixed. It seemed as if the Fortitude had chosen her course. I cursed the ship then, and I wept, the fear that had ridden me for days seemingly unleashed. I might call myself her captain, but I knew that unless I was willing to brave swimming for some distant shore, I was also her captive. The sails bellowed out under fair skies, the breeze a relief from the oppressive summer heat. It was only one of many days like that. I watched from the quarterdeck or the rigging, searching the horizon for signs of life in the distance. I would try to shift the tiller, or move the wheel, futile since I’d sawn through the cables. They remained frozen, day after day. I did my best to fit out the ship. I made a makeshift repair to the smashed railing on the spar deck. I checked the ropes religiously. The main topsail had a rent in it and I climbed up to sew it closed. I eventually moved into the captain’s berth, replacing the stained mattress with one from the officers’ quarters. Captain Melstone would have approved. I heard his voice at times, calling me to this or that duty or reminding me of chores left undone. Part of me knew I should not hear him, but his words always assured me of the order in life. I clung to that reassurance. I created in my mind a strange fantasy about sailing into Sydney, where I would be hailed as a hero and given the Fortitude‘s captaincy outright. Foolishness, but I had little else to occupy my hours. At times, I believed that the spaniel puttered about the quarterdeck with me. I talked to it when I grew lonely. Once, I saw land in the far distance to the north. Afraid that it might be a hallucination, I couldn’t make myself leave the Fortitude. There were sharks in the water again, but I didn’t know if they were real or not. The dog would poke its golden head through the railings and bark down at them, the same panicky bark I remember hearing on that last day. I spoke with Captain Melstone at times, who had little sound advice for such a bizarre situation. He shook his grayed head and clucked his tongue, amazed at the foolishness young lieutenants got up to. “Mr. Davies,” he told me, “you have torn it properly, haven’t you. You can’t even get our girl into port, now can you?” He spoke no more than the truth. A ship the Fortitude‘s size could not be run by one man alone. I needed a crew to man her should I ever think of getting her docked. I considered that, thinking perhaps I could come alongside some other ship and take on men. That would allow me to better control her. I suspected the truth, though, somewhere in my mind. I had no control over whatever bore the Fortitude so steadily eastward. Something in the islands drew us along against all nature, and I began to fear that unknown power. We had sailed the Indies together for the last five years, the Fortitude and I, and had seen many inexplicable things in these uncivilized seas. She alone stood between me and the water, so I had to preserve her. She became my obsession, day after day, trapped in that relentless heat. I walked the decks, checking the sails, the guns, the stores. I lay on my bunk at night, wondering where my Fortitude meant to take us. I don’t know how many days passed with us running ahead of the steady wind, but it was many. We should have encountered weather, but did not. We should have seen islands, for I knew there were hundreds in the East Indies, but we saw none. We should have seen other vessels in the water–fishing boats, islanders’ canoes–but I saw only whales, porpoises, and sharks. Birds watched me at my rounds. At times gulls would circle the ship, screeching and scrabbling in the sails. I knew there must be land nearby, but I feared the ocean. I left some chores to the crew. I detested scrubbing the sails, but the seaman failed to keep them clean, no matter how I railed at them. I no longer scrubbed the decks or the hammocks, either, my time being otherwise occupied. We passed through the Coral Sea, I was sure of it. My calculations could not be that far off. The Fortitude passed New Hebrides and the Fiji Islands in the night. I woke one morning to discover that our course had altered to a northeasterly one. Frantic, I checked the wheel with its cut cables and the tiller, but neither had shifted from their frozen positions. I studied the charts in the captain’s office. We had sailed north of the Hervey Islands, one of James Cook’s discoveries in this part of the world. Not much lay between me and the vast expanse of the Pacific Ocean. A few islands were known in that direction, most tiny and unexplored. My last, certain hope of land appeared to be the Sandwich Isles. Had Cook not met his death there? I worried. Captain Melstone told me that was so. I hoped that the Fortitude would make land soon, but prepared for the worst. I had food, more than enough to carry me across the Pacific should it not spoil or be stolen. To be certain, I went down to the hold and checked the stores again. I left Midshipman Lewis stationed there to warn me should any of the seamen attempt to get into the rum. None did. Like fish caught in a net being drawn in, we all waited as something drew us inexorably through the waters. We no longer had any choice. I do not know the date when I saw the man standing on the quarterdeck, more substantial than any of my seamen. I guessed him to be a native of the Sandwich Isles, judging by his dark skin and scant dress. He wore a tall headdress made of green leaves and driftwood and his round eyes seemed to almost glow. His hair hung down his back, nearly touching the wood of the deck, and the sun set behind him created a red blaze of light about his form. He gazed at me for a moment and then spoke to me in one of the islander tongues, a fluid flow of nonsense. As I stared up at him from the spar deck, he repeated his words more loudly, anger in his tone. His voice carried like the wind, murmuring and reverberating in my ears, almost painful. The spaniel came up next to me and cowered at my feet, as unnerved as I was. “I don’t understand you, sir,” I called up. He pointed to his bare feet. He wanted me to come to him, that much I understood. I weighed my chances. He bore no weapons that I could see, and should I retreat, I would be surrendering the quarterdeck. Deciding that I must show the spirit of an Englishman, I mounted the steps. I stood an arm’s length from him, lifting my jaw in an attempt to stare him down. He smelled of the sea. Rivulets of water ran down his skin, as if he’d climbed aboard my ship from the waves. Although from the deck below I had thought him round and ungainly as islanders sometimes were, this close I saw that his bulk was solid muscle. I might have a slight advantage in height, but he could likely best me in barehanded combat. He lifted his nose and glared at me, then let off a string of gibberish, his words confounding me just as they had before. I considered calling up the marines to remove him from the deck but quailed, not certain that they could do so. I recognized an air of power about him, of command. “I cannot understand your speech,” I said slowly. His dark eyes narrowed. Then he extended one hand, shoved it into my chest, and wrapped it around my heart. I looked down and saw his arm ending in the white linen of my shirt. A dark stain spread about it. My heart’s blood, I realized. The man’s hand squeezed my heart, and I felt the tearing and wrenching of my innards. But somehow, as if my body were numbed by the icy waters of the deep ocean, I felt no pain. My blood trickled down his arm, rivulets of red against his dark skin. I trembled, my feet no longer supporting me. The grip of his fingers within my body–that alone kept me upright. He did not speak, but I heard him just the same: This boat is my tribute. Where are the dead my warriors sent to me? Blood fell from my lips, spattering the deck. The spaniel growled at him, then flinched back at a single harsh word from the islander. I fought to make my mouth work, my voice coming out as no more than a rasping whisper. “W-what do you want of me?” This boat belongs to me. This boat’s dead belong to me. I sent my warriors to claim it, to bring it here. The boat is here, but where are my dead? Somehow, I still breathed, though I knew I should be dead. My heart beat like the fluttering of a frightened bird, clenched within that invading fist. I tried to grasp his arm, but my hands passed through it like water. My fingers came away stained with blood, as if I had plunged them into my own chest, and I gazed at them, aghast. My trembling increased, and my pulse pounded, blood rushing in my ears. Strange, I thought, that I should have any blood left at all. With difficulty, I turned my eyes to the spar deck, where several of the marines stood staring up at us. “Help me!” I demanded. They simply gazed up at me, faces unmoved by my plea. I saw Sergeant Morris there, with whom I’d played cards while on watch once, blood dyeing the white trim on his uniform the same red as his jacket. Lieutenant McQuillen stood at the back, the mark of a blade splitting his face. They didn’t come to my aid, seemingly frozen in place on the deck, their insubstantial faces washed red in the sunset. Suddenly, I understood what the islander wanted. He wanted the bodies of the seamen and marines that I had long since fed to the sea. For what grim purpose, I had no earthly idea but I knew I had trespassed against him in disposing of the dead. “The sharks,” I whispered, terror robbing my voice. “The sharks took them.” You will return them to me. “I cannot,” I said. Abruptly, he withdrew his hand from my chest, and I fell to the deck. The islander stood over me, my trapped heart beating within his hand. Red blood trickled down his forearm and dripped from his elbow. I watched the droplets hit the deck, slowed in their fall, and knew that everything had changed. How I could live on without my heart, I did not know, but I still breathed. I touched a shaking hand to my chest. I found no gaping hole there as I’d expected, but neither did I sense a heartbeat. I was still free of pain, but now I found myself without fear as well. The spaniel licked my face, its tongue warm and wet. I gripped the railing of the quarterdeck and forced myself up, rising to face my tormentor. When you return my dead to me, you will have this back. I glanced at it there in his hand, no more than a lump of quivering flesh. But it was mine, and I was incomplete without it. “Who are you?” I asked. He spoke a single word in his islander tongue: “Kanaloa.” But in my mind, I heard: I am the sea. I did not understand, but I no longer cared about the identity of he who enslaved me. I wished only to learn the terms of my service and be on my way. “How many?” I asked. Thirty-three were lost. A hand for each. There had not been that many on the ship when I threw the bodies overboard. “There were only twenty-eight.” Thirty-three were lost. A hand for each. “Some washed overboard in the storm,” I argued, “not my doing.” He squeezed my heart in his hand. Searing pain shot through me, as if all that I’d not felt before redoubled back upon me now. I sank to my knees despite my determination not to react. The spaniel barked. “Thirty-three!” I gasped, “And a hand for each!” He let go. After a moment, I regained my strength and stood. I refused to deal with this creature, heathen god or not, from my knees. “A hand for each one,” I agreed. “But I must have a crew.” He stood at the railing, his arms raised as if beseeching the sea itself. Then his face turned to consider mine. Then you will have one. One of the marines tossed the rope ladder over the side, and men began climbing up onto the ship. There were wiry Filipino sailors and long-haired Chinamen, men of the islands, barely clad, and aborigines from Australia and New Zealand, wearing even less than the islanders. Dead men, all, I could see that. Drowned, most of them were, not hacked and torn like my less-substantial marines. I didn’t know from whence they had come, nor did I care. In our travels about the Indies, I had seen their likes before, and knew some were indeed competent sailors. Others I doubted. “I would prefer an English crew,” I said. Bring me Englishmen, and you will have one. He did not like my countrymen, I suddenly divined, and would willingly line the bottom of the ocean with their corpses. I should care about my countrymen, I reckoned, but I found I did not. No worries clouded my reason. “And you will give me back what is mine?” You will have what is yours when I have what is mine. Turning away from him, I wiped the blood from my chin and stared down at my ragtag crew in the falling darkness. “I am Captain Davies,” I told them. “When you speak to me you are to address me as Sir, or Captain.” The wheel spun smoothly, its cables replaced that very night, and its anchor no longer dragged the ocean floor. The Fortitude came about and headed for the East Indies where we would be sure to encounter English ships. The next morning, I rose to inspect the decks as usual, but on my desk I found a slip of paper sealed inside the wine bottle I’d emptied before sleeping. I drew it out and saw that it was written in my own hand. I couldn’t fathom why I had penned such a thing; I can only assume it stemmed from some lingering sense of duty. Take heed, my countrymen, for I have come for English sailors. Should you catch a foul scent on the wind, flee, for I will have no mercy. And should I leave you alive, know that it would be better to throw yourself to the sharks than to share my doom. –Captain Jonas Davies, HMS Fortitude. I held the page in my hand a moment, considering it, then opened my lantern and set the letter alight. I shoved it inside and watched it curl into blackness, my absent heart indifferent to the fate of all men.

by J. Kathleen Cheney. The suit had to be hand-tailored. The gray wool shone, a recent Italian style touted in the newest fashion videos. The victim’s dark hair had gray at the temples; an affectation, most likely to lend him an air of dignity. His body looked too fit to be natural, the kind of fitness only the wealthy could afford—metabolism regulator chips, continual isometric toning programs, possibly even a few DNA alterations. A man like that didn’t have gray in his hair unless he wanted to. Greene decided he should feel sorry for the victim anyway. They had too much in common, despite all the things they didn’t. If an EM blast hit him, he’d be in a bad way too. He checked the cards handed over to him by a weeping secretary in a yellow blouse—perhaps it was orange. He couldn’t quite tell. The young woman now stood in a spot where the light didn’t hit her directly, so he couldn’t see her clearly any longer. He could still hear her sobbing. He held the top card squarely in front of his eyes, its black text easy to read on a white background. DeVane Michaelson, it said. International Travel Litigation. A lawyer who specialized in suing travel agencies, the secretary had told him. “What kind of name is DeVane?” Sergeant Ellison asked. She leaned over and took the card, her dark hand passing into and then out of the range of his cameras. “One that sounds impressive,” Greene said. “Looks like there’s a lot of money in travel lawsuits.” “Huh. I wonder why the Purists would come after him. He’s not one of their usual targets.” Her voice sounded only mildly curious. No, Greene thought, the Purists usually went after the purveyors of Intelligent Medical Implants—not the IMI users. Any manner of chip implanted in the human body to improve performance or appearance, the Purists called a “pollution” of Nature’s Creation. With an implanted heart regulator, Michaelson certainly violated their standards of human purity. It concerned Greene that the Purists might have gone after a user. So far they had managed to vandalize several implantation facilities in the Greater Los Angeles area. They concentrated on taking out the companies’ computers using EM blast guns, mostly homemade. Kits for the things were available all over the Internet, marketed for “legitimate uses” such as the destruction of old data. So far, any humans hit with blasts in the Purist’s “raids” had only suffered inconveniences. DeVane Michaelson was the first to die. “Who knows? There might be some link,” Greene said. “Why don’t you start running down everything you can on him?” Ellison would spend the rest of the day with her computer, he reckoned. His own forte was listening, not reading screens—the images that the cameras embedded in his contact lenses fed to his retinal implants were grainy at best. “If it was the Purists, do you think they intended to kill him,” he asked, “or just burn him out?” “Normally, regulators are pretty heavily shielded,” Ellison said. “The EM blast would have had to come from close range to cause one to fail.” A strong blast could have come from a distance, but still inside. The building’s Faraday system kept outside electrical intrusions at bay, and nothing near the body had shut down, suggesting a very localized blast. Two large screens on the wall nearby merrily cycled some irritating, colorful art that changed just about the time Greene had them figured out. He thought they might be Van Goghs. Greene turned his eyes in Ellison’s direction. His retinal implant ran a facial recognition program and supplied her name—an annoyance as it scrolled slowly through the bottom of his vision. He’d put Ellison into the program when she first started working with him about a year ago and had never gotten around to taking her out. “My dad has a heart regulator,” Ellison added in a quiet voice. “He got a letter.” The Purists had gotten their hands on some of the implant firms’ client lists and sent threatening letters to the users in an attempt to dry up demand for implants. Greene had gotten a letter or two himself, but hadn’t taken them too seriously. “You report it?” Ellison shook her head. “Just a form threat. I’ll ask him if he’s still got a hard copy, though. Those people start going after users, Dad might want to invest in a shield vest.” Greene turned back to the body lying on the landing. “Yeah. A vest might be a good buy.” He wouldn’t have said that a day ago, but this murder had him worried. Unfortunately, a vest wouldn’t offer any protection for him. The widow had a nice figure. As she stood silhouetted in the light of a large bay window, it was easy for Greene to see that much. Her face remained elusive, even though his program informed him it had pinned down her features to a seventy-two percent probability of recognizing her later. Dark hair, worn long, medium skin, moderately tall. She wore a white blouse and dark skirt, high heels—details that would change. She came back from the window and sat down across from him on a wide pale-colored couch. With the window behind her, she was little more than an outline to him. She crossed her legs, and said, “They told me that DeVane was leaving his office. That he didn’t tell his secretary where he was going.” “No, Mrs. Michaelson. We don’t know where yet.” Greene shifted in his chair, feeling uneasy. “Did you talk to him at any time today?” “I went into the office this morning to get him to sign some papers for the bank. And before you ask,” she added, “I went to the bank and handed them over. I was there from eleven till almost noon.” Which gave her an alibi at the time of the crime. “What sort of relationship did you and your husband have?” She sighed and laid something down on the table next to her. “If you talk to his lawyer, you’ll find out we were in the process of a very civil divorce.” “Over the secretary?” he guessed. “No, not her. She wasn’t the first, Detective; I just got tired of it. I decided it was time to call DeVane a mistake and move on. He was tired of being tied down, so he was perfectly agreeable.” That explanation covered her lack of emotion on hearing of her husband’s death. “So you get—What? Half?—and he goes off with the secretary?” “I sincerely doubt that,” she said. “DeVane isn’t . . . wasn’t the sort to settle for one woman. I doubt little Veronica would have held his attention for more than a few months. I’m getting most of the money, by the way. You can check with his lawyer on that, too. I had far more money coming into the relationship than he did and at least had the sense to require a clear prenuptial agreement. DeVane is getting this monstrosity of a house and his car.” “You don’t want the house?” he asked. “Good Lord, no. Would you?” Her horrified tone almost made Greene laugh. She sighed and added, “It’s a showcase, Detective, to display all of DeVane’s nice things, myself included. My tastes are far simpler.” “It must be worth a fortune,” he said. She moved her head. “There are two mortgages on it. Unfortunately, I was cosigner on them, so now I believe I’m stuck with the thing. I’m meeting with my business planner tomorrow to find out how bad it is.” “I see.” She tilted her head to one side. “Do you?” “Meaning?” “Hmm. Is there anything else I can help you with?” “We’re going through his office files to determine if he’s received any threats there. I need to know if he’s received anything discretely on the house link.” She shook her head. “He was a lawyer, Detective. Of course people threatened him. He kept files. If you’ll excuse me for a minute, I’ll make a copy for you.” She rose gracefully, passing close to him as she swayed toward the hallway. She smelled of lilacs. Her heels clicked intermittently, moving from floor to rug to floor. Once she’d gone, he crossed to the bay window and looked back at the room, trying to see details from this angle. His cameras supplied information to his implants, but lighting was always their critical weakness. He needed light on the subject—not behind—to be able to get a good idea of how it looked. His eyes started to go out on him in his twenties, falling quickly through the stages of Retinitis Pigmentosa—night blindness and then an escalating loss of peripheral vision. But while the disease ravaged his retinas, it left his optic nerve unharmed. His implants fooled his brain into thinking his own eyes were doing the seeing, not a pair of cameras. They weren’t perfect, but were far better than nothing. The officer who’d driven him to the house still waited in the foyer, a dark spot in Greene’s vision. The house was vast, this living room big enough to hold his entire apartment. The furniture seemed to be of the sparse, Scandinavian variety—clean lines and neutral colors, like the widow. A grand piano rested in one corner of the room, its top propped open, black and white, easy to see. Pale rugs took up floor space, covering dark tile. It felt hard and slick enough to be marble, so Greene made a mental note to walk carefully. Everything smelled expensive—like a museum. A newspaper lay on the table next to the window, folded in half. He picked it up and held it so the light hit the page. “Purists Protest at Walker Implants,” the headline read. There was a picture below it, but he couldn’t refine his camera focus enough to see it clearly. The sharp click of her heels warned him that the widow was returning. He dropped the paper back on the table. She came toward him with something small and dark in her hand. When she held it out to him, he took it. His fingers told him it was a drive chip, so he slid it into his pocket and thanked her. She turned to face the window and gazed outward, in profile now. This close, with the light from the window on her features, he decided she was lovely. He couldn’t make a guess as to her ethnic background, but her facial features had very elegant lines. The implant claimed a ninety-seven percent probability of recognition if he saw her later. “Is there anything else, Detective?” she asked without turning to look at him. “Not at this time. I’ll probably need to get back in contact with you later, though, when we’ve had more time to refine our lines of inquiry. If you think of anything, you have my card.” “Thank you.” Her voice sounded absent, as if her mind had turned away along with her face. Greene showed himself out, walking slowly on the hard floor. The geek squad had already taken apart Michaelson’s computer, checked every nook and cranny for hidden data, and come up with tons of personal information, all of which the computers at the precinct determined had no relationship to the Purists. “Well, run it again,” Greene suggested when Jackson came back with that result. “If I run it again, Greene, I’ll tell you the same thing in five minutes.” Jackson’s voice made his opinion clear, even if Greene didn’t look up at his face. Jackson stood nearly seven feet tall and towered over all of them, making him the easiest person in the precinct to identify, except when he was sitting. Not quite six feet himself, Greene always felt short when he stood next to the man. “You may not know how to use a computer,” the geek added, “but you want me to do it for you, then don’t question my results.” “Sorry, Jackson,” Greene said. “Didn’t mean it that way.” “Right.” Jackson tossed something small onto the desk. “What we’ve got. Maybe Ellison’ll take pity on you and re-run it, but there’s no reason to.” He took himself away, his elongated shape sliding out through the doorway. “Hey, Stretch,” Ellison said as she walked into the room, evidently addressing the departing Jackson, not Greene. “Twelve security cameras,” she said in a plaintive voice. “Not a single one caught the murder.” “What are the odds of that?” Greene asked. “Nil.” She leaned over his desk and typed something up on his computer. “Except this one. See the blonde walking up the steps?” “Can you enlarge it?” “Nah, just goes all grainy.” She pointed a dark finger against the muddled grays on the screen. “I’d guess about five-foot-eight, nine, maybe.” He shrugged. “What makes you think this is the killer?” She chuckled. “Because this camera feed dies about a millisecond after this frame. She took out the camera. There’s not enough data for facial recognition, pulls up about ten thousand possible matches. She had her face turned away.” “If this is the only camera that caught her, then she must have been extremely lucky.” “You know I don’t believe in luck,” Ellison said. “She knew the camera’s sweep pattern.” “Staked out the building?” “Or had access on a regular basis,” she pointed out. “With that low of a match probability, DA probably won’t take the record into evidence.” “If we can get a decent copy off this, one of the guys can run it down to Michaelson’s office tomorrow and see if anyone recognizes her.” “Not likely, but maybe someone will remember the clothing.” She leaned on the edge of his desk. “So, what did you make of the widow? He had a picture in his office. Trophy wife?” “Well, she wasn’t grief-stricken,” Greene admitted. Ellison sighed. “The secretary cried all over me when I took her statement. No one said it, but I’ll bet she was his bit of fluff on the side.” “Yeah, the widow confirmed that. They are ‘in the process of a very civil divorce,’ she said.” He handed Ellison the drive chip and the name of the divorce lawyer’s firm. “Jackson says no joy on the computer files.” Ellison tapped something against his desk. A pen, or pencil, he decided. “Yep, already told me. Probably no tie to the Purists then. Maybe someone taking lessons from their play book?” “A possibility, so, we run the wife . . .” Greene suggested. “And the secretary,” she added. “I’ll get right on it. Don’t you have to go give evidence in the Vargas case?” “What time is it?” he asked. His implant supplied the time just as Ellison said, “Three twenty-five.” Greene pushed himself to his feet. “Just a deposition, but I’m supposed to be there at four. Thanks for reminding me.” “That’s why I exist, boss,” she said. “Heading out to the gym?” Ellison asked. Greene had stopped back by the office to pick up his bag and plowed right into her in the hallway. “Is the gym bag a giveaway? “Yep, run a mile for me, okay?” She headed back toward the office with a wave. The Americans with Disabilities Act might keep the police department from firing a half-blind detective, but if he failed a fitness test, that would have the same result. Heading toward forty, Greene couldn’t rely on his natural leanness to keep in shape any longer, so he took a bus to his gym. It was annoyingly crowded at that hour, but he found a treadmill, spent an hour running, then showered up and headed for home. His apartment was small enough that he could negotiate it in the dark but he kept the lights on full anyway. An extravagance, one for which he paid dearly, but the high power bills were worth being able to see. His kitchen smelled like Thai food, the natural consequence of bringing it home almost every night. Greene sat in his favorite chair in the living area, put his feet up on the ottoman and worked his way through the garlic chicken, mentally reviewing his statement for the Vargas case. He set the container on the table and closed his eyes. The cameras imbedded in his lenses cycled off, leaving him with just the implant’s feed. He’d learned early on that daily maintenance of his optical files was far better than leaving it for later. The implant dutifully showed him the faces it had recorded since last night, those on which it had gotten enough data to make a positive match. Most were easy calls—people he’d seen on the street, the regular patrons of the Thai restaurant. Those he trashed. The implant recalled the face of the secretary then, displaying her image for him. She had blond hair, and dark smudges under her eyes that must be smeared make-up. “Record,” he said, “Michaelson secretary. Cancel. ‘Veronica.’ “ The implant recorded the data points for the face, creating a file for her. Greene trashed several more before coming to the widow. The implant had a good side view and extrapolated a frontal view. “Record. Manisone Michaelson.” He worked through the remaining records. Then he pulled up Ellison’s image and deleted that file, to keep the program from running letters through his brain every time she came near. He didn’t need the help to recognize her any longer. That done, he got up, turned on the radio, and relaxed back into his chair to the soothing sound of the news. “Well, will you look at that,” Ellison said. Greene pushed his chair away from his desk and rolled toward hers. Her screens showed line after line of data, all too small for him to read. She tapped the upper left corner of the screen a few times, enlarging the image for him. His cameras focused on the words. “Look where she worked before they met.” Ellison pointed. “IMI-AG” Intelligent Medical Implants, he read. “AG? Wouldn’t that be their German division, then?” “Yep. Graduated from Yale, Masters in Prosthetics Engineering.” “So, not a trophy wife, after all.” Somehow that didn’t surprise him. “How long did she work there?” “Pretty sparse info on-line. It doesn’t specify what division, but I doubt she was a secretary with that degree.” “Can we get that information?” Ellison shrugged, the motion clear enough for him to register. “I’ll contact the firm. They’re probably not going to give it to us, though. It’s actually a German company. The Americans are the branch, not the other way around. She hasn’t worked since she married Michaelson. Five years now. Doing charity work, mostly through the Lions Club. I’m still hunting.” Greene sat back. “Did Michaelson get the heart regulator through IMI?” She shuffled some printouts. “Yep, that’s where he met her, looks like. Had to have it implanted while in Germany on a litigation case. They dated for a couple of months, got married, came back to the states. Beautiful story.” “You’re a cynic,” he told her. “No, I’m really weeping inside,” she said. “Truly.” “Right. Anything else?” “Not so far.” “So what about the secretary?” “Twenty-seven. Local high school. Associates Degree in Paralegal Studies through Kaplan. This is her only job so far. Seven years with the firm, Michaelson specifically requested her transfer to a position as his secretary about five months ago. Good evaluations, no reprimands. One arrest for involvement in the PETA sit-down protest at Armour-Tyson Foods here in town.” “Really? Think she’s gone from PETA to Purist?” He raised a single eyebrow. “Don’t do that. It looks weird. Haven’t found a link yet.” Ellison sighed. “Hey, can you pull up the paper from a few days ago. Had a headline on Walker Implants.” His implant showed him the headline from the paper he’d seen. Ellison typed for a second and then touched one of the spots on her left screen. “This one?” She’d found the one he’d seen the day before, grayscale picture and all. “That was only, what, three days ago?” “Nope, last week,” she said. That meant someone at the Michaelson household had hung onto that paper for a few days. Greene frowned, peering at the picture. He tapped the corner to enlarge it. A crowd of blurry protesters sat on the steps of the Walker building, arms linked. A handful of police dragged one of them loose from the pack as the passersby cheered. “Amazing,” Ellison said. She tapped the screen a few times, getting it to refocus on the protestors, and then one in particular. “Well, I’d say my money is on her.” The name “Veronica” scrolled across Greene’s vision, his implant supplying the recognition prompt. “Can you run a printout on that?” “Yep.” Ellison tapped the screen, and across the room the printer began to whir. “Greene,” a voice called, “Jackson wants you right now.” He pushed his chair back and followed the junior geek down the hallway to the bullpen where the herd of geeks had their screen heaven. Jackson sat in his usual pod, no less than a dozen screens pulled down to surround him. “Hey, Greeney,” Jackson said, “you almost missed it.” “What are we looking at?” Ellison asked from behind Greene, saving him from asking. Jackson pointed at three of the screens in succession. “Whoever is doing it has all his codes. Liquidated the stocks in the last ten minutes . . . and . . .” Jackson drummed on the desk with a couple of fingers, a mock drum roll. “There it goes.” “Very cool,” Ellison said. “Where is it going?” Greene focused on the screen, his cameras enlarging the view internally. “Mutual Manhattan Bank,” the screen said. He could make out a short list of account numbers running down the page, balances next to them, each one resetting to zero in turn. “This guy’s good,” Jackson said. “If it does what the stock portfolio did, everything is going to re-route to an account in Dubai . . . and we will never see it again. Banker’s paradise, Dubai.” He began touching screens with one hand, typing with the other. “And it’s away. Probably be transferred out of that account soon, but their government will never give up that information. All told, looks to be about a million dollars, no, maybe eight-hundred thousand.” Not as much as he would have expected, Greene reflected, given the huge house and expensive implants the man had carried about inside himself. And a car—private vehicles cost their owners a fortune in annual fees and taxes. “Did they clear out all of Michaelson’s assets?” Ellison asked. She leaned past Greene and touched something over Jackson’s head. “Nope, we’ve got a couple of life insurance policies untouched. Compared to what they’ve got, not worth the bother. Pretty small, in fact.” “You want the secretary or the widow?” Ellison asked. “Five bucks on the widow,” Jackson answered without turning around. “Let’s bring ‘em both in,” Greene said. “Without doubt, one of them knows the access codes or can point us to someone who does. I think we know our motive now, at least.” Ellison rapped on the door. “Veronica Sweet?” “Is that really her name?” Greene asked. Ellison laughed. “Didn’t I tell you before? Her real name. I checked.” Greene rolled his eyes and then endured a second of blurred vision as his lenses rotated with the movement. The secretary had a house in the suburbs, far larger than Greene would have expected. He wondered if the title might have Michaelson’s name on it—something else to check out. Ellison banged on the door this time. A second later, the door opened a crack and Veronica Sweet peeked out past the chain holding it shut. To Greene’s eyes, it looked like she’d been crying again. “Who is it?” she asked in a timid voice. “Sergeant Ellison and Detective Greene,” Ellison said. “We’d like to ask you a few more questions.” “Can I get dressed real quick?” the secretary asked. Greene saw a great deal of leg exposed in the door’s narrow opening and nothing else. “Sure,” Ellison said. “We just need to talk to you.” The door clicked shut. Ellison shrugged and asked, “Who answers the door naked?” Greene almost laughed at her scandalized tone. “Never done so yourself?” Her face turned in his direction. Greene couldn’t quite decide what her expression meant. She opened her mouth but then stopped and pressed her ear against the door. “Damn,” she said a second later. “Door slamming. I’ll go around the back, boss.” She drew her gun and headed off the porch. Greene drew his own weapon and thumbed off the safety. He gave Ellison a second longer and then tried the door again. When no answer came, he kicked it in. The door banged against the wall of the house with a hollow crunching sound, giving him some idea about the quality of the construction. He took a careful look inside and didn’t process any movement. “Veronica Sweet?” he called. He didn’t get an answer, so he edged inside the doorway, moving to one side. His cameras took in the small living room. Trinkets covered every horizontal surface, a mysterious jumble in his limited vision. The place smelled like cheap air-fresheners. He advanced toward the next room, the kitchen. Linoleum tiles on the floor in a black and white checkerboard dominated his vision until he could see the form of the secretary standing near the sink. He couldn’t make out what she held before her, but her posture told him it was some sort of gun—illegal in civilian hands. He trained his in her direction. A useless gesture, since he had trouble hitting the side of a barn. “Put it down, Ms. Sweet. We just want to talk to you.” His shoulder burned and his mind filled with white light. He staggered and hit his knees, so disoriented that he nearly didn’t hear the sound of bare feet pattering past him. “Greene?” Ellison’s voice entered the blackness. “You hear me, Greene?” “Crap,” he said. “She got away, didn’t she?” “Yep. We’ll get her. The guys are going to take you on in, okay?” He was lying flat on his back, covered with blankets and strapped down. Ambulance, he decided. “I’m fine. They don’t need to take me in.” “You’re not fine. Stop arguing.” Greene blinked, trying to get anything from his eyes into his brain. Faint hints of light bubbled past—either remnants of his lousy natural vision or hallucinations. He couldn’t make sense of anything. “He has retinal implants and a generator pack imbedded in his shoulder,” Ellison told someone else. “The pack definitely burned out.” “There’s not anything they can do,” Greene said in a voice that sounded far older than his own. “Shut up, Greene,” Ellison said, sounding angry now. “They’re going to take you in and check you out. I’ll come by the hospital to pick you up later.” The gurney on which he lay began to move, a sure sign that he’d lost the argument. When the EM blast had hit him, it fried all the circuits in his implants. The retinal implants hadn’t hurt when they went; the retina didn’t feel pain that way, he knew. The shoulder implant had burned like hell, though, as circuits superheated under the electromagnetic pulse. Implants like his weren’t covered under the Police Department’s insurance. He’d known that before the doctor told him so. A prosthetics specialist removed the ruined generator pack from his right shoulder, but couldn’t offer any help for Greene’s eyes. He would have to go to his own retinal specialist tomorrow and hope that there was a plan by which he could pay out new implants over the rest of eternity. At least it had happened while he was on duty, which meant the department would keep him on disability in the meantime. Ellison didn’t bring him any better news than the doctor. “We haven’t picked her up yet. We’re checking all her known associates and family, but haven’t had any hits yet. And the widow has disappeared, too. She made an appointment with her business manager, and then flaked out on a dinner date with a bunch of her friends.” “Couldn’t have been the secretary in the surveillance video, though. She’s too small. Five-foot-three at the most.” “So she had an accomplice. One who gave the gun back to her afterward, I suppose. I have to wonder if the woman meant for Veronica to get caught with it. Take the fall, sort of.” “I’m not all that sympathetic to Ms. Sweet right now.” Greene pulled on his jacket, and Ellison patted him on his good shoulder. The dermal patch on the other would take a few days to heal over. “I’ll work on it in the morning, Greene. Come on.” The whole world of blind habits came swimming back to him, as if he’d never escaped. The first thing he’d done at the hospital was ask for a cane. “I can get home by myself,” he groused. “I know that, but I’m here and I have the car.” He gave in. “Can you drop me at the Thai restaurant on the corner?” “You still eat at that place?” Ellison asked. “Sure, no problem. I’m definitely going to buy my dad a vest.” “Good idea. Buy me a shielded sack to put over my head while you’re on-line, okay?” Ellison chuckled. She dropped him at the corner and, after a moment of getting his bearings, Greene made his way into the restaurant. After he’d explained the cane to the owner, he got his usual garlic chicken and made his way up to his apartment. He felt proud that he remembered the way. He dug his keys out and let himself in, shutting the door behind him. After setting the cane against the door jamb, he went into his narrow kitchen to fetch a pair of chopsticks. He thought better of it a moment later and dug out a fork instead. Then, with the paper bag still stapled closed, he caught the faint smell of lilacs. “Detective,” the widow said. “I couldn’t think of who else to talk to.” He could hear her feet come closer. Not heels this time, but something soft, like running shoes. He decided she stood on the other side of the kitchen counter. Her hand touched his face, just under the eye. “What happened?” she asked. “How did you get in here?” She laughed, the kind of laugh that sounded like a rippling stream—beautiful. “I told your landlady I was your girlfriend.” “Oh, that’s great.” He needed to have a serious talk with Mrs. Chao. “What happened to your eyes?” “Is it that obvious?” “You don’t have your camera lenses on anymore. The cane was a give-away, too.” “Same thing that happened to your husband. How did you know they were cameras?” “You didn’t look at my legs. Men always look at my legs,” she said. “Did it occur to you that I might not be interested in women?” “Frankly, no,” she said with that laugh still in her tone. “You just couldn’t see my legs. When I returned, you were standing with your back to the light so you could see me. I just had to do a little careful investigation. Here, move over.” She pushed on his arm, and he heard the bag rattling. The scent of garlic chicken rose as she opened the bag. “Are you going to eat all of this?” “You missed dinner, I hear. Why shouldn’t I call my partner?” “Hey, I’m just helping. I haven’t stolen anything. I didn’t even break or enter. What are you going to complain about? Where are your plates?” “You’re a person of interest in a homicide investigation,” he reminded her. “Person of interest—I like that. Makes it sound less sordid. Where are the plates?” “Cabinet in the corner, above the sink.” He heard the cabinet doors open and then the clatter of stoneware. “So what did you see?” she asked. “We were never allowed to test that on human subjects, even if they agreed to it. Triggering a catastrophic shutdown, I mean. German government didn’t approve, believe it or not.” “I take it you worked on retinal implants, then?” “Yes. Go sit down.” For a second, Greene considered taking a swing at her. She definitely liked being in control of the situation. On the other hand, he’d learned a lot in the last few minutes. He walked to his chair, touched the arm and then sat down. She continued talking. “My grandmother had Retinitis Pigmentosa. She had some of the first artificial silicon retina chips implanted. Back in the Dark Ages for implants, but that’s what got me interested in prosthetics. They made a real difference for her.” He understood her curiosity better then. “White light.” “Any pain?” she asked, following him from the kitchen. “Are you enjoying this?” She laughed again. “It’s actually quite interesting. As I said, the German government frowned on this sort of test. Any pain?” “No,” he said. “Any residual vision?” “No. Well, some stray blobs of light.” “That’s a good sign.” She put the plate in his hand and handed him a fork, wrapping his fingers around it. “You had a central field of vision of about one-third of a meter when you had the implantation, right?” “How did you know that?” “I still have friends in the industry. It wasn’t hard to get a download of your files.” He heard the sound of her sitting on the nearby sofa. “She did you a favor, Detective Greene. Those implants were almost ten years old. The fifteen-forty pixel camera. They can do far better than that now. It’s a night and day difference.” The urge to take a swing at her resurfaced. “Do you have any idea how much I make?” “I can look it up. Actually, I came to ask your help.” Greene picked up a forkful and, from the taste of it, got mostly rice. He went after a second bite, digging around more judiciously this time. “Mrs. Michaelson, I’m not in a position to help you right now. I’m officially on disability leave, and you’re involved in this case.” “Call me Manisone, please,” she said. “I didn’t kill him. I don’t know whether Veronica did, but she certainly made away with the money quickly enough.” He’d never really been able to rely on the cameras to relay facial expressions very well, so over the last ten years, he honed his ability to listen. She sounded honest to him. “You’re saying she took the money.” “Why would I take money I would have inherited anyway?” A good point. “So why would I help you?” “Do you know how much it will cost you to get implanted again? How long you’ll have to wait? Particularly since you’re a municipal employee?” She didn’t wait for him to answer. “I can get you into one of the experimental programs inside a month. One of my former colleagues works at Walker. I can ask him to clear a space for you.” She waited a second, as if he needed time to process that explanation, and then said, “Provided you help me.” He’d known that was coming. “How exactly can I help you? I’m blind now, if you haven’t noticed.” “I have eyes. What I don’t have is access to the resources needed to track her down. So, this is easy. I can get your eyes fixed fast, provided you help me find her before she manages to transfer that money to someone else.” “How do you know it was her?” “Because DeVane was stupid enough to allow her to do some of his banking for him. The bank manager told me yesterday that she’d been in several times to make deposits and withdrawals on the accounts. If I could strangle DeVane at this point, I would.” Greene took a bite. “Withdrawals? How large?” “Big enough to make house payments?” she asked in turn. “Yes, I know about the bimbo’s little love nest.” Well, at least she didn’t have any illusions about her husband that he would have to dispel. “Why would she kill him if he was her paycheck?” “I expect he broke it off with her. I don’t know. But I need to find her fast, and I need your help to do that. Once she’s transferred it to a third party, I’ll have no chance of getting it back.” He sighed, thinking he must be even stupider than the husband. Still, she had exactly the carrot he wanted on the end of her stick. “I don’t have a car.” “I do. So where did she go?” “Let me make a couple of calls.” The car whirred softly, far quieter than the police hack Ellison drove. Manisone maneuvered it onto the freeway, heading toward San Francisco, where Veronica’s parents lived. At least they’d missed the worst of the traffic, and the air in the car seemed reasonably breathable. Greene hated being on the freeways during the day. “I need to call my partner.” He pulled out his spare police com-link and hooked the device over his ear. “You mind?” “Go ahead.” He thumbed on the link and called Ellison on voice-only mode. “Boss?” she asked. “This had better be good.” “I’m being held hostage and . . .” “I am not holding you hostage,” Manisone said softly. “I’m being corrected, Ellison. Mrs. Michaelson is not holding me hostage. She’s bribing me into chasing after the secretary.” For a second Ellison didn’t answer. “You going to argue about that one?” he asked the woman sitting next to him. “I don’t think I can argue that,” she said. “Come again?” Ellison said in his ear. So he started at the beginning, running through the whole encounter at his apartment. Ellison listened, but he suspected she had already pulled up a screen or two. “I’ve got you on the H40, Greene. You want a pick-up?” “No. It’s a pretty good bribe.” The woman had gotten to the one thing he really needed. Without his eyes, he wouldn’t have a job. “Did the locals dig up the secretary yet?” “Wait a minute, I’m trying to get through.” “Am I going to be arrested for bribing you?” Manisone asked softly. “You get me arrested and our deal’s off.” “I might settle for breaking your jaw,” Greene said, waiting for Ellison to respond. “Don’t try it.” Manisone patted his shoulder. “Got something,” the voice in his ear said. “Got a sister in Bakersfield.” “The woman in the surveillance feed?” “Low percentage match. Face turned away thing, remember. Wait . . . looks like the sister has just purchased a ticket on the Amtrak Express to Tijuana.” “Can you get security to grab her?” “The TSA? Their only inspection point on this line is at the border crossing. No, wait. The passengers are inspected at the San Diego inspection station.” “We’ll head that way, see if we can catch her before she hits the station.” Greene didn’t have a lot of faith that the perennially overworked Transport Security agents would be able to pick either woman out of the horde, but it was worth a try. “Nudge the TSA anyway, won’t you? “Sure thing. You okay, Greene?” Ellison asked in his ear. “For right now,” he said, and thumbed the unit off. “So her sister helped her?” Manisone asked. It took a second for him to redirect his train of thought. “Looks like she might have been at his office that day. So were you, though, as was the secretary.” “Still not willing to count me out?” “I’m a skeptic,” he admitted. She sighed. “Where exactly are we going?” “Amtrak Station. San Diego, near the naval base. How fast do you drive?” “I’ll have to turn around,” she said. “Don’t worry; for this, I’ll drive fast.” He felt the car ease to one side, heading toward a ramp. “This is your chance to jump out,” she said. “You’re holding my eyes hostage,” he said. He clutched his borrowed cane. He’d considered using it on her, but couldn’t quite bring himself to. Not yet, at least. The station in San Diego reeked of oil and diesel, with the smell of the sea floating over that on a cool night breeze. Greene got out of the car when prompted and followed Manisone inside, using her light grip on his arm as a guide. He almost stopped dead in his tracks. A smudge of light floated in his mind, that spare tendril of natural vision that apparently escaped the frying out of his implants. The lights inside the station actually seemed to register in his brain. Not much more than a bright blur and only about a foot across, but it was better than nothing. It reassured him that his optic nerve, at least, was undamaged. Manisone drew him farther into the well-lit space. When they reached the main office, his sight wasn’t much better, but in the direct center of his limited field of vision he could make out a dark, moving blob. “Identification?” the blob asked in a man’s voice. To Greene’s ears the TSA officer sound young. Manisone discreetly pushed his hand in the right direction. Greene stretched out his hand and, luckily, laid it directly on the identification pad. He asked about Ellison’s request, hoping to distract the officer from his halting motions. “The blonde?” the security officer said. “Yeah, we’ve got her in the back.” “She’s wanted for questioning in a murder back in Los Angeles,” he said smoothly. “We need to make arrangements to take her in.” He had faked being able to see well for so long that faking being able to see at all wasn’t difficult. He kept his face turned toward the speaker, who seemed to be looking in Manisone’s direction anyway. “You have her secure?” she asked sweetly. “Can we go ahead and speak to her?” The officer apparently considered that request for a full half-second. “Don’t see why not. You’re the police, after all.” Greene felt like slapping the man silly. Not only had the officer not checked Manisone’s identity, he hadn’t blinked an eyebrow at the fact that Greene was out of his jurisdiction. “Why don’t you take us back there,” he said, thumbing on his link as he did so. “Is she there?” Ellison asked in his ear. “I’ll know in a minute.” The guard led them down an echoing corridor, well lit enough that Greene could catch hints of light and shadow. That only served to confuse him, so he closed his eyes for the moment. His own retinas hadn’t actually done any of the work of seeing for some time, and his head had already begun to ache. Manisone’s hand tugged on his arm. “Take a nap later.” He opened his eyes to catch a dark sliver of movement . . . a door opening. He stepped forward when she pulled at him, following her into the room. It was brightly lit, at least. A dark form moved past his vision—Manisone’s head. Something lighter waited across the room, sitting, he guessed. He tried to squint without looking like he was squinting. “Where is she?” Manisone asked the sitting figure, sounding like the police officer. She laid Greene’s hand on the back of a chair, as if practiced at this type of thing; she must have spent a good deal of time with her nearly-blind grandmother. Greene pulled out that chair and sat, keeping his eyes on the blurry shape across the table. Ellison asked the same question in his ear, so he flicked on the link’s camera. She would be able to see what was directly in front of him, even if he couldn’t. The figure across from him—the security officer’s blonde—must not be Veronica, he decided, but the sister. After looking at the feed, Ellison confirmed that. “I don’t know where she went,” the blurry woman said in a defiant voice. “I wouldn’t open my mouth, boss,” Ellison warned in his ear. “Jurisdiction.” Sitting in the room made him an accessory to whatever Manisone did—unless he could convince a jury that he hadn’t been entirely willing. She did, after all, have his eyeballs in her pocket. He’d had plenty of time to work through that defense in the car. Her dark form moved and he turned his head to keep her in his tiny field of vision. She walked around to the edge of the room, and paused by the white wall. He thought she stood facing it. “What are you doing?” the woman at the table asked in a panicked voice. Manisone moved abruptly. A muffled squeal came from somewhere near the floor, sounding like someone wrapped in cloth. The sounds came together in Greene’s mind. “Luggage?” “Her luggage makes noise,” Manisone said. “How exactly did you plan to get a bag this big through the border checkpoint?” “I want a lawyer,” the woman at the table said. Greene heard the door open, and Manisone called for the security officer. She closed the door again. “Now, Detective Greene wants to bring in whoever killed my husband,” she said, apparently addressing the woman at the table. “I, on the other hand, just want to know where my money is.” “You made that money violating Nature,” the woman said in a pious tone. That rang false in Greene’s ears. “Going to go for the “I was misled by political activists” defense?” Manisone laughed. “If you really wanted us to believe that the two of you stole it for your political convictions, you wouldn’t be trying to get out of the country so quickly, now would you? Why not just hand it over to the organization?” Another person entered the room—the security officer. “Detective?” “We’ll need someone to open the luggage, Officer,” Greene said. “It squeaked when she kicked it.” Evidently the officer repeated the experiment, getting a similar response. “We’re almost there,” Ellison said in his ear. A very reassuring thought. Greene allowed himself a smile. He heard the security officer calling for a detail to report back to the offices. “You can’t do that,” the woman at the table protested. “That’s private property.” “Ma’am, there appears to be living contraband in this bag,” the TSA officer said. “We have the right to search any suspect luggage.” Greene heard the sound of a zipper, then, followed by a curse and whistle from the TSA officer. “What do you know?” the officer said. “Come on, miss, get up.” Sounds of a scuffle came from the far side of the room, frustratingly unclear in Greene’s vision. He heard a male protest, followed by a female squeal of fury, and an angry shout. He turned his partially working eyes back toward the sister in time to see the dark blob that must be her rising. Without thinking too much, he dove over the table in her direction. He wrapped his arms around the wriggling screeching woman, and held tight despite her pummeling him about the shoulders. He managed to wrestle her off the table and onto the floor, finally getting her down with a knee on her back. He hoped he wasn’t going to be arrested for assault. “Under control over there?” he asked as the sounds of struggle died down. For a second, no one answered. Greene turned his head so that his link’s camera faced in their direction—difficult when the woman he held down kept trying to scramble out from under him. “Miss, put down the gun,” the security officer said. “She’s got his gun,” Ellison said softly in his ear. That’s what comes of giving TSA personnel guns, Greene thought sourly. “She’s got it on the widow,” Ellison added. “Miss, you’ll need to put that down,” the man said, trying to sound older than eighteen. “Officer, do you have any handcuffs?” Greene asked. “No, sir,” the young man said. He really wanted to tear the man’s arms off now. “Just shut up,” the secretary said. “Get off of her.” “We’re entering the station now,” Ellison told him. “I’ve got a couple of the local boys with me.” “What did you do with the money?” Manisone asked. “Like I would tell you,” Veronica said with a sneer in her voice. “It’s somewhere safe.” The woman under Greene started kicking. “Shut up,” he snapped. “This is all your fault,” Veronica said. “You said they would be able to get him to the hospital. You said it would just be a distraction. You didn’t say it would kill him.” Greene argued with his mind, trying to decide to whom she spoke those words. “Shut up,” the woman under him barked, giving him his answer. “She did it?” Manisone asked. “It was all her idea,” the secretary said then. “He was going to sell my house. She said he owed it to me for all those months I put up with him, and then he wouldn’t marry me because he was going back to his stupid wife.” Manisone actually laughed. “And you believed him? That’s the excuse he uses every time he wants to dump one of his bimbos. He just got tired of you.” Greene was afraid he was going to have a full-fledged catfight on his hands—complete with a gun—and he didn’t think the TSA officer could handle that. “Get in here, please,” Greene begged the disembodied voice on the link. He thought he could hear Ellison chuckle. “Let me see the room, boss.” Greene turned his head, making a slow scan of the others standing by the door—or at least where he thought they were. Ellison’s voice came in his ear. “Three. Two. One.” He heard the impact of a foot against the door and a female squeal. Something metallic skittered on the concrete floor. The body under him bucked, and he leaned his weight more heavily over the torso, cutting off her air supply. He could hear the sounds of a struggle and—quite clearly—the sound of a fist hitting flesh. Then sobbing. The video feed was popular at the precinct. Greene didn’t get to see it until a couple of weeks later, after the retinal specialist permitted him to go back into work half-days, adequately convinced that Greene’s brain had accustomed itself to his new implants’ feed. It showed Veronica standing with her back to the door. In her shaking hands, she held a gun trained on Manisone and the TSA officer. When Ellison slammed the door open, it swung directly into Veronica’s back. Her arms flew wide and the gun twirled away. The TSA officer—who turned out to look about forty, but Greene still thought of him as eighteen—dove after the gun. The secretary fell into Manisone who, with a furious expression on her face, grabbed her blouse and slugged her. Veronica slumped to the floor sobbing, her nose bleeding copiously as two police officers followed Ellison into the holding room. As a blind cameraman, Greene thought he’d done spectacularly well. “The DA is still trying to pry the account codes out of them,” Manisone said, toying with her salad. “There’s no telling if the money is still in that account.” The new implants gave him a far better picture of her face than the old ones had. He was still adjusting to the new program, but the resolution of the cameras was so good that any difficulties seemed trivial. “Surely they can track it down.” “Turns out the sister actually did all the transfers. She’s trying to use the account information as a bargaining chip, but the DA isn’t budging. He wants to use this case to send a message to the Purists, whether or not they’re actually involved.” Manisone shook her head. “I’m never going to see that money. I’m lucky to have the shirt on my back. The insurance policies barely covered the loss I took in the sale of that damned house. I’m fortunate Walker Implants was willing to make an opening for me.” “Well, you wanted to get back to work,” he reminded her. “So is he charging them with murder?” Ellison came into the restaurant then, Jackson a couple of steps behind her. She sat down at the table, flushing slightly when Jackson held the chair out for her. “Boss, when are we going to stop eating Thai food?” “I like Thai food,” Greene protested. “Hey, it’s near your place and you’re lazy,” Jackson said. He turned toward Manisone, and smiled. “Nice punch by the way.” “This is Sergeant Jackson,” Greene told her. He’d confessed to her that the video feed had already made the rounds of the precinct. “Ah, I heard you bet that I was the murderer,” Manisone said with a laugh. “Now, Mrs. Michaelson,” Jackson rumbled, “I hadn’t met you then.” “Stop that,” Ellison said, and pinched him. “So what did the DA say this time?” Manisone started over, explaining, “He’s just going to charge Veronica as an accessory in the murder. However, he does plan to charge her with aggravated assault for her attack on you.” Greene allowed himself a grin. His implants had run their standard recognition program on the woman holding the EM gun that shot him. When Veronica fired, he’d instinctively turned away, his skull providing slight protection to his left eye’s implant. That implant had performed one last feat before dying a heroic death. The facial recognition program’s result had been one of the very few pieces of data the geeks had been able to pry out of his fried implants—one single, damning bit of evidence. Loved this. I printed it out because I’m not a screen reader and the 22 pages just whipped by. When I’m not reading spec fic tales, I love a good thriller and this jumbled two loves together. Glad you liked it ;o) I usually have to print things out, too, so I understand that completely. Very enjoyable. I discovered your story “Ambergris…” on Abyss & Apex and knew that I wanted to read more. I’m not disappointed yet. I noticed that you listed Georgette Heyer as an inspiration somewhere. Do you mainly read her mysteries or her Regency romances? I’ve just begun reading her and have been working through her romances, but since your stories so far seem to also be detective pieces I wondered which you preferred. I noticed also that you were a school teacher. I teach 9th grade English currently. How long did you teach before you decided to devote yourself to writing, if you don’t mind my asking? Hi Danielle ;o) I’m glad you liked AB&B. Georgette Heyer is one of my favorite authors of all time, and I’ve read both her mysteries and her romances. Although there are a few of her romances that I truly adore (These Old Shades, The Devil’s Cub, and The Masqueraders are my personal favorites.) I do like her mysteries better. If you read them, you’ll find them slightly dated (as are all mysteries of that age), but still very enjoyable. On the other hand, I haven’t read them for a few years. I should get them out of their boxes and plow through them again. Mystery does seem to turn up in most of my work, although I do have to admit to an equal leaning toward the romance end of the spectrum… I have actually written all my life, but didn’t seriously decide to pursue publication (which is a very different thing) until 2002, when I went to my first workshop. As for teaching, my main problem was that I quickly became overburdened with extracurricular activites, thus chipping away any time for writing. (I coached Academic Team, Mock Trail, and Robotics, and sposored Mu Alpha Theta, Chess Club, and CIA.) I clearly don’t do a good job of saying no. So after 9 years, my husband and I decided that in order for me to write, I had to quit…which I did after my 2005 class graduated. On the other hand, I know a lot of people who write and teach concurrently, so one musn’t necessarily preclude the other. I suspect one merely need be a better time manager than I am ;o)

by J. Kathleen Cheney Illustration by James Galindo. It wouldn’t be the quick death her original had. According to what she’d read during the flight home, her own would take a few days, the body lingering on as her nervous system slowly collapsed. Her hands felt icy. Viviana slapped them against her wool-covered thighs, trying to warm them. “It’s the first thing to go,” a voice said behind her. She turned and saw that someone had come up the pathway, a man in his mid-thirties, blond-haired and handsome. “What do you mean?” “The sense of touch,” he said in a northern accent she couldn’t quite place. “It fails first.” He came around the stone bench and gestured as if asking her permission to sit. Viviana moved over as far as the stone seat would allow. He joined her on it, and she could feel the warmth of his body. He wore a dark overcoat and scarf over casual attire, navy slacks and a sweater. Not the same quality as hers, but clean. She had on the same charcoal business suit she’d worn for the last two days. Her hair felt sticky. She had it twisted up in a knot at the nape of her neck just as her original would have. “How do you know that?” she asked. “It’s my job. I have to be aware of these things.” “Who are you?” The wind caught a dark strand of her hair and blew it across her eyes. Viviana tucked it behind one ear with shaking fingers. “My name is . . . Daniel, Daniel Hunter. I manage the Chicago station.” His head tilted, a self-deprecating motion. “Sort of.” “Oh.” She should have known that the Rand Company would send someone after her. Legally, her body was their property. “Have you come to take me in?” “That’s why they sent me. May I call you Viviana?” No harm in that familiarity now, she thought. “Yes.” He took her nearer hand and massaged her fingers. “I think you’re more cold and tired than anything else.” “I didn’t have anywhere else to go.” She glanced down at her carefully manicured fingers in his paler hand. The warmth of his skin seeped into her, almost like life returning. “How long do I have?” “Every avatar is unique. These things happen at slightly different rates.” “They told me ten days when they made my avatar. I mean they told her that.” She’d spent the last few days trying to adjust to that truth—that she wasn’t the real Viviana Fuentes. She was only a copy. “Most avatars have their memories uploaded within two or three,” he said, “so it’s rarely an issue. Twenty days is generally considered the outside maximum life span.” She felt a surge of hope, as if ten extra days of life would be enough, but then it flowed away. “When I got to the station in Sydney, they refused to upload me.” “So I would expect. How did you get back to Texas without any access codes?” With the death of her original, she’d become a non-person. Her credit access had disappeared. “I always . . .” she paused, recalling that she hadn’t always done anything. “She,” he corrected. “She always carried cash,” Viviana said. “In case of emergency. It was wired along with me.” In truth, she’d had it in case she’d needed to bribe any of the Australian partners. Fortunately, she hadn’t. “I don’t know why Customs let me through, but then the airline wouldn’t release my luggage. They said it had to go to her next of kin.” “They probably had no idea what to do with you.” He rose, took off his coat and draped it around her shoulders. The fabric felt synthetic, man-made like her body. It warmed her just as well as real wool, though. “I’d like to try to get you somewhere safe,” he said, sitting down again. “Back to the station? What’s the point?” she asked. “They can’t upload me. I’m going to die. Why not just leave me here?” She gestured at the headstones around them, stained pink and rose in the sunset’s glow. “People find it distressing when an avatar senesces in public,” Daniel said in a reasonable tone. She gave a short laugh. “Senesces. What a civilized way to say I’ll crumble to pieces.” A light came on near the bench, triggered by the deepening shadows. “Does it hurt?” she asked. “I don’t know,” he said with a half-shrug. Pale irritation swept through her, a remembered taste of emotion. “I thought you said it was your job.” “How can I really know if it’s never happened to me?” “Have you ever seen one of my kind die . . . I mean, senesce?” “No.” He smiled sheepishly then. “I’m only a day old.” She surveyed his face again. “You’re a fax like me?” He lifted the hair at the nape of his neck to show her the upload implant there. “My original is back in Chicago.” “Why didn’t he just fly here?” “This was faster. He works for the station, so he doesn’t have to pay.” In the ten years since the Rand Company had produced their first avatar, no other similar patent had been granted, giving them a monopoly on the trade. Industry analysts claimed that the uploading process, avatar construction, and raw materials didn’t warrant what the Company charged, but Rand countered that the prices stemmed from research and development costs. Her firm had been willing to pay that price. “Have you . . . has he done this before?” “I’m the first,” Viviana said. “And the last, I suppose. I . . . she didn’t want to do it, but the partners insisted that she was the only one who could close the deal, so they sent me.” “Did they not notify you when your original died?” “I found out four days later,” she told him, “after I closed the contract.” He sighed, and said, “I’ll bet that wasn’t . . . pleasant.” “I’d been so busy. I’d hardly slept in days. I really thought I was her until I found out I was dead.” “We are never them,” Daniel said. Viviana motioned with her chin. “I wanted to see it for myself. She’s over there.” The derailment on the intra-city light rail had killed several people, but none of the others had left copies of themselves behind to view their graves. Among the rows of newer tombstones, one bore her name. “Beloved daughter,” she pointed out. “I thought about going to see my . . . her parents.” “It would be hard on them,” Daniel said. “How often does this happen?” She wondered if she was the first. “It’s rare,” he said, “but it has happened before.” “And what did the Company do with the others like me?” “They were retrieved.” Daniel rose and held out his hand to her. “I have a car outside the cemetery. You need rest more than anything else. How long since you’ve eaten?” Viviana took a deep breath and let him help her up. She swayed, and he slipped a hand under her elbow. Not death—she had days to go—but exhaustion. “I don’t remember.” She didn’t look at her grave as they passed it. He opened the door for her, and she settled into the passenger seat of a rented sedan, waiting while he went around to the driver’s side. He turned the heater up, started the car and pulled out of the cemetery’s drive. “Do you know where you’re going?” she asked. “No.” He took the highway, the rental’s drive control switching on automatically. “Do you care?” “I thought you had to take me back to the station.” “Not right away,” he said with a shrug. “Let’s find something to eat.” It seemed a trivial thing when she was just waiting to die. Then again, she didn’t have anything better to do. “Why not?” “It’ll make you feel better,” he said. “That is one of the things I do know. Avatars need to eat.” The original Viviana Fuentes would never have ordered a stack of pancakes with a side of chorizo. It would have been yogurt and fresh fruit. She didn’t have to worry about her figure, though, a strangely liberating fact. “I haven’t been entirely truthful with you,” Daniel said as he toyed with his eggs. No one had been entirely truthful with her, not in this incarnation, at least. “How?” “I didn’t come here to take you back to the station.” He looked regretful. “If I took you there, they wouldn’t do anything other than keep you in a holding cell until you senesce—preferably far away from any paying customer.” “What other option do I have? They can’t upload me.” “They can, into storage in the Austin station’s mainframe: the physical pattern, the consciousness, and memories . . . the whole package.” His jaw clenched as if he remembered something unpleasant. “They’d tell you they can store you until they can download you into a new avatar.” “Can they do that?” “They can do it now,” he said with a shrug. “But it’s against the law,” she guessed. He nodded. “Your original specified a one-time avatar. It’s actually standard on the contract.” “Oh.” Legally, an avatar had no recourse against any decision their original made. It didn’t matter what she wanted. The chorizo tasted spicy and greasy, the real thing, not soy. Viviana dabbed the corner of her mouth with her napkin. It came away orange, reminding her of childhood breakfasts on Saturdays when Papa cooked. “So what are you going to do with me?” “It won’t take Danny long to figure out that I’m not bringing you in. He wants to find out what I’ll do.” “Danny?” “My original. I prefer not to use his name.” It struck her as odd that he would choose a different name. She had always been Viviana, too reserved for Vivi or Bibi even as a child. Her middle name, Alma, seemed too mature. She toyed with the notion, wondering what it would be like to wear a different name. “You think of him as someone else?” “Easier than you think. You were created with every intention of merging your consciousness back into your original. She never thought of you as truly separate, so you don’t either. I was fabricated already knowing that. I’m not even actually a copy of Danny,” Daniel added with a wry smile. “I’m a copy of Number Ten.” She put down her fork. “You’re not a copy of your original?” “Danny had a psychotic episode after he uploaded his ninth avatar, got to spend a couple of weeks in one of Cook County’s fine mental health facilities.” He waved his fork as he spoke, his expression not one of sympathy. “What happened?” “He’d uploaded three avatars in a two-day period. It’s difficult enough for a human mind to reconcile two sets of memories that occurred simultaneously. He thought he could handle more, but he found out he isn’t as all-powerful as he believes. After that, he decided not to upload us any longer. Ten’s physical pattern and consciousness were stored in the Chicago mainframe, and with those avatars he does manage to drag back, Danny uploads the memories directly to Ten’s file. I think of him as my original, not Danny Hunter. If Danny hauls you in, be sure to tell him that.” He didn’t even like his original, Viviana decided, an impossible idea. “Will he come after me? Or you?” “Yes,” he said without hesitation. “As I said, Danny would certainly like to know what Ten has in mind. I expect Danny will put a watch on me and try to figure out where I’m going, what I’m doing and with whom.” “Because you’re Ten’s avatar, not his?” “Therefore he can’t predict my movements. In the last six years, Ten’s personality has diverged markedly from Danny’s. The Company can’t just read the code that represents Ten’s consciousness and understand what Ten is thinking. He’s like a big fish deep under the water. They can only observe the ripples that spread out from Ten’s movements and make inferences from that. By studying me, by watching me, Danny thinks he’s studying Ten.” “So he’s given you an inch of rope, so to speak, to see what you’ll do.” Daniel nodded. “And if I can, I’m going to take a mile.” The shower felt wonderful, hot water pouring over her skin and chasing away the last vestiges of the cold. It was good to have her hair clean. Viviana shut off the spray and watched the last of the water drain away, taking skin cells with it, each a tiny bit of her shortened, made-up life. She toweled off and dressed in clean clothing Daniel had purchased for her. Not the kind of clothes Viviana Fuentes would normally buy, the pants and shirt felt more like loungewear, loose and comfortable. They weren’t made to last, though. Viviana gazed in the mirror, hunting for signs that senescence was imminent, but didn’t know what to expect. She looked more tired than anything else. The hotel room had two queen beds, not the finest of anything. Viviana didn’t complain; she hadn’t paid for it. She didn’t really want to be alone anyway. Fully dressed, she laid down on one of the beds and closed her eyes. Across the room, Daniel spoke to someone on a wireless, his voice low. Viviana wondered sleepily whom an avatar might know to share secrets with. She slid into slumber, the question unanswered. Viviana woke into darkness, her internal reckoning completely undone by her travels over the last few days. She spotted a clock glowing on the nightstand and decided she had a few hours until dawn. The other bed was empty. After her eyes adjusted to the darkness, she spotted Daniel sitting in the leather wing chair. He’d backed it up against the door and slept with his head leaning against one of the sides. Rising, she padded to the restroom. The face in the mirror looked less tired now. She struggled not to see Viviana Fuentes in the mirror. Even so, she knew that the woman staring back at her wasn’t the original. She had nothing: no rights, no property and no identity. The Pope hadn’t even decided if she had a soul. He’d denounced the creation of avatars—too morally ambiguous for the Holy See. Her parents, good Catholics both, wouldn’t have wanted their daughter to do this. In the end, she’d chosen not to tell them. Daniel rapped his knuckles against the doorframe to get her attention. “My turn. If someone knocks on the door, tell them to wait outside, all right?” She relinquished the bathroom and went out into the dark room, wondering who might show up this early in the morning. She settled in Daniel’s abandoned chair and ran her fingers along the still-warm leather. He came back a moment later and turned up the light next to the computer screen he’d left rolled out on the desk. “Do you have a soul?” she asked, looking up at him. “Yes.” He spoke as if he knew the answer, as if it were more than conjecture. “You’re a copy of a copy,” she pointed out. He shrugged and then sat on the edge of the desk facing her. “It doesn’t matter if Danny thinks I have a soul or not. I know that I do, and that’s what’s important.” “We aren’t human,” she said. That had been forcibly imprinted on her in the last few days. “Legally, no.” He gazed at her, his skin looking gold in the light reflected under the amber-colored shade. “Do you think that’s fair?” Viviana stared at her hand where it lay on the arm of the chair. “No,” she whispered in answer. “Not anymore.” “There’s someone coming. If you come with us, you might have some alternatives.” Viviana Fuentes’ life was over. Time for her to live her own, however short that might be. “What do you want me to do?” Daniel left everything on the table when the young man showed up: his wireless clip, his key cards, his credit pass. Viviana watched him empty his pockets. The young man approached her and held out a dog collar fitted with a metallic device on the back. “It should, in theory, block the telemetry transmitters,” he said. “If you’ll put it on, I can test it.” He stood a few inches shorter than either of them, his tangled hair pulled back in a pony tail. He hadn’t supplied a name—an intentional oversight, Viviana decided. She slid on the leather collar, buckling it in front like a bizarre fashion statement her original would never have made. Daniel had donned one as well, looking even more out of place in black leather than she suspected she did. The young man ran something resembling a lint brush around her head and behind her. “Wow, not bad. They really do work. We are definitely going to win.” Viviana decided he must be even younger than she’d thought, perhaps twenty-five. “Win what?” “You don’t know?” he asked. “We should go soon,” Daniel hinted. “Oh, yeah.” The young man pocketed the lint-brush device and pulled out a ring of keys. “I’ve got a van.” “Do you have a name?” Viviana asked. He appeared to consider before answering. “I’m supposed to be your go-between for the department, but I’m not supposed to fraternize too much—corrupting the contest and all that.” He shrugged. “You can call me Migo.” He headed out the door and they followed, Daniel putting one hand to her elbow. “Ten set it up as a contest between two universities,” he said as he drew her down the hall. “First engineering department to build a fabrication terminal—developed independently from the Company’s design, of course.” She shot Daniel a horrified look. “Do they work?” “Never tested, from what I understand.” He tugged at his dog collar. They reached the elevator and went inside. “Daniel,” she said, whispering in his ear, “are you crazy?” He glanced down at the carpeted floor of the elevator. The corners of his eyes crinkled as if he were about to laugh. “It’ll work,” he said. “Ten trusts them.” Migo pretended not to listen, but Viviana suspected he overheard most of their conversation. “He’s a copy in a terminal,” she said softly, “in Chicago.” “It’s like a prison,” Daniel said, “and Danny will never let him out. He doesn’t have to; Ten’s consciousness is his personal property. That shouldn’t happen to any of us.” The elevator doors opened, light from the foyer of the hotel spreading across his face as they did so, revealing a gleam in his eyes she hadn’t noticed before. Daniel Hunter Number Thirty-two, with his meager ten- to twenty-day life span, was on a quest. “Where is he taking us?” she asked, once inside the van. The young man drove through the city as if he knew it well, along the CTTS and north to the suburbs. Seated in the back seat next to her, Daniel kept a nervous eye on the road, as if he expected someone from the Company to pull up alongside them in the predawn light. The sky went from gray to orange to pink as he explained, slowly illuminating his features with a brightness that matched the fervor within. It was an audacious plan, likely invisible to the Company only because no one had ever seen it as a serious threat. “Since the US Patent Office granted Rand’s application for a patent, we’re legally property. The only thing that can change that now is Congress or the courts,” Daniel said. “So we have to have an avatar who isn’t Rand property—fabricated by someone other than the Company—to make a case.” “Twelve managed to get some design cues out to both universities,” Daniel added. “That was about five years ago. I don’t know if all the others in between have contributed, because several were never uploaded. Whatever they did was lost with them when they died. It’s not just a contest any longer.” Migo half-turned in his seat to grin at Viviana. “Yeah, Aggies for Human Rights is funding us now.” She wished he would concentrate on the road. “Really?” “Yeah, and they have a lot of pull.” He waved his free hand as he talked. “AHR is working with Senator Cerna—he’s one of our alums—trying to get an injunction passed while the senate . . .” “The road,” Daniel interrupted. “Oh, sorry, man.” The young man turned his eyes back toward the road and maneuvered them back into their proper lane. He turned on the van’s drive control and then swiveled around to grin at her again. “He’s trying to get an injunction. ‘Cause avatars should have rights like other people, I mean. That’ll shut down all five of the Company’s terminals in the state until the supreme court can rule on it.” And that would cost the Company a fortune, she realized, possibly enough to make them rethink the entire program. A doctor attached to AHR removed the transceiver on the neural upload implant in her brain, eliminating the need for the leather collar. The surgery left her with a headache and a small dermal patch, but her hair covered the second. She hadn’t expected the relief she felt after having the Company cut out of her head. She felt hopeful now, which she hadn’t since she’d learned of Viviana’s death. Daniel looked ill after the doctor finished with him, though. “They’ll need to move us again,” he told her, trying to sound brisk. “The Company is going to follow the transceivers for a while. I’m sure they already suspect that I’d get mine cut out. The telemetry probably cued them as to when.” Migo drove them across town to wait, while someone else took the excised transceivers in a different direction. Viviana suspected that the Company might have another way to trace its property and, when asked, Daniel admitted he considered it likely. They waited at a guest house behind a mansion in a private neighborhood. It belonged to someone important, she decided. She’d seen guards when they came through the gates at the edge of the subdivision. “You don’t think Danny has any idea?” she asked Daniel as the morning sun began to warm the day. Daniel pinched the bridge of his nose. “Between him and Ten, there’s a pretty big gulf. Danny might try to get a competitor to build a terminal, but never a university.” “So what happens now?” “If everything goes according to plan, they upload your memories and then download you into a new body.” “With equipment that’s never been tested,” she said. Daniel gave her a frank look. “Not a chance you’re willing to take?” “If I don’t let them try it, I’ll die anyway.” “I don’t want you to die,” he said. “I don’t want me to die, either.” The house had a lovely garden. She stared out the window, wishing she could walk through the faded rosebushes, but Viviana Fuentes’ face had appeared on the news. The Company had grown frantic enough to find her that they’d publicly admitted she’d outlived her original. Worried that she might be seen and reported, Migo had asked that they remain inside the house. “What will I do afterwards?” she asked Daniel, the question she should have asked some time ago. He’d been resting in the bedroom across the hall, but came to join her at the window. He settled on the wide leather couch and gazed at the garden, his face strained. “Good question.” “Won’t I just die again in a month?” “No, the bodies are capable of lasting much longer. Senescence is programmed to occur at a predetermined time. It can also be triggered remotely through the transceiver, but it isn’t necessary.” “So we don’t have to die.” “That’s one thing the public doesn’t know. It’s just become accepted fact—avatars don’t last. The Company specifically designed you to die.” An appalling revelation, she thought it sounded close to murder. He went on. “Ten altered your physical pattern code to remove the lines that trigger senescence, so that shouldn’t be a problem once you’re reloaded.” “I still won’t have any rights.” “Well, that’s where our political friends come in. If you’re willing, you could stand as the test case for the state supreme court. Whether or not we have the right to live our own lives—and to have bodies not programmed to fall apart.” It would be a life of captivity, looking out at things but never going out among them for fear that the Company would try to kill her. But it would be a life, and that was more than her original had. “So I’ll go through the same upload procedure she did.” “Not exactly. The funds were limited, you understand,” he said, shifting in the chair again. “Senator Cerna has managed to funnel some money into this, but the contest specified that they had to build a terminal that could fabricate a functioning avatar, not upload one.” “Wait, you said they could upload me.” “The memories of the last few days—that’s comparatively simple. That software’s been around for some time.” He shook his head. “The physical pattern and your consciousness files, those are far more complex.” “Then how . . . ?” “As soon as Ten found out your original had died, he transferred your physical pattern and your consciousness files to a remote terminal and isolated them from the system. He anticipated that I would be created to retrieve you. The university has those original patterns now. They can upload your memories into that.” “What about you?” He sighed and shifted in the chair. “Ten could only separate your files out because they were being purged from the system after your original’s death.” She stared at him—his strained motions and his clenched jaw. The pieces clicked together. “You’re dying.” He sighed. “My senescence was triggered before they got the transceiver removed. I felt it.” She understood now how Daniel could despise his original. “It would have happened eventually,” Daniel said. “I’m just sorry I won’t be able to stay around and help you. Besides, I’m just property. You, on the other hand, can’t be tied to Viviana Fuentes anymore.” “But I am a copy,” she reminded him. He reached across and took her hands. “No, you’re distinct. Your memories make you different. They change you. Never forget that, no matter what. You’ve done things and met people that she never did.” He had talked around the issue, she noted, preferring for this not to be about him. She squeezed his fingers. “Can you feel your hands?” “No,” he said, rising. “I think I’ll go lie down until the senator gets here.” She followed him to the door of the bedroom. “You should probably get some rest as well,” he suggested. “I don’t really want to be alone,” she admitted. “And I don’t want to watch any more of Migo’s old movies.” Daniel grinned. “A bit strange for you?” She couldn’t help rolling her eyes. “I’m just going to lie down,” he said again. She didn’t pretend to misunderstand what he meant. “I don’t want to be alone. That’s all.” He closed the door behind her after she came in. When he lay down, she followed, pulling the heavy blankets over both of them. She touched his cheek. “Can you feel that?” “It’s just my hands and feet that have gone numb,” he said. His skin felt icy under her fingers. “Are you in pain?” His jaw clenched. “A bit.” She kept her hand against his cheek so he would know she was there when he slept. She didn’t want him to be alone. A rapping on the door warned her that someone had come for them. Daniel’s eyes opened, but he still looked exhausted, so she rose and went to answer. Light from the hallway spilled into the room when she opened the door. Migo stood there, looking nervous. “Ms. Fuentes?” “What is it, Migo? Do we need to move again?” “No, ma’am.” His dark eyes made a quick motion toward the rumpled bed. He held one hand close to his side in an awkward position, with index finger and pinkie extended. Under duress, she realized. He wouldn’t make that particular hand signal—the sign of his university’s rivals—unless something dire compelled him to. She locked the door, stepped outside and closed it firmly behind her. Three men stood at the end of the hallway. They hadn’t been in her line of vision from the room. Two of them held back their sport coats in an old-fashioned TV bad guy posture, showing handguns in underarm holsters. The third man didn’t have a gun, but held a stunner in his hand. A stunner wouldn’t leave much of a visible injury for the media to see, she knew. They ensured compliance instead. “It’s all right, Migo,” she said, putting herself between him and the men. “I believe this gentleman has come to see me.” “Is he . . . ?” the young man asked from behind her. “I don’t know.” The man in front of her might be Danny Hunter, or he might be yet another copy. She suspected the former. “Get out of here,” she whispered to Migo. “They don’t want you.” “I can’t just leave,” Migo said. “Yes, you can.” She walked toward the men and into the elegant sitting room where she and Daniel had talked only a couple of hours before. She gestured at Migo, who’d followed her. “You aren’t after him, gentlemen. He’s only our driver. You don’t want to have to explain his disappearance, do you? Or his body?” Danny Hunter shook his head, his expression amused. “He’s not leaving, Ms. Fuentes. Can I call you Viviana?” “I’d prefer Ms. Fuentes,” she said. She gestured toward the couch. “Shall we sit down and discuss this?” “Where is he?” Hunter asked, coming toward her. One of the thugs followed and took Migo by the arm, gun pointed discreetly into the young man’s side. She understood that threat. “Where is who?” “Did he tell you I was stupid, Viviana?” Hunter asked. He stood only a few feet away from her. Daniel hadn’t aged in the last six years, she realized. Every incarnation had Ten’s physical pattern, not Danny Hunter’s. The man in front of her looked to be over forty. Lines marred the original’s face that didn’t show on Daniel’s, and a hint of a double chin crept over the tight collar of Danny Hunter’s dress shirt. “He didn’t talk about you much,” she said with a shrug. “You’re a good liar, Viviana,” he said, “but they always talk about me.” She didn’t recall Daniel saying the man was an egomaniac. “How did you find us?” “I knew he would get that transceiver cut out. He always does. We started implanting a second, more discreet one, a few years ago.” “How clever,” she said. Hunter grabbed her arm and shook her. “Don’t waste my time. Where is he?” “I thought you wanted me back.” He pushed her away and one of the thugs took over the task of bruising her arm. Hunter shook his head. “What did he tell you? That he could find someone who would help you? That he could get you uploaded?” He fixed a pitying smile on her. “You don’t understand what’s going on, Viviana. Too bad you got caught in the middle. Now, where is he?” She didn’t think she could stall any longer. “In his bedroom. He went to lie down a while ago. He felt ill.” “I’ll bet,” Hunter said. Just as the original moved to search the bedrooms, Daniel stepped out into the hallway. “I assume you’re looking for me?” Hunter scowled at his younger-looking twin. “You didn’t even try to run.” “You can’t get away with hurting our driver, you know,” Daniel said. “He’s human.” “But you’re not, are you?” Hunter pointed the stun gun in Daniel’s direction. “Legally, no.” Daniel walked past his original and into the sitting room where the two thugs held their hostages. “Are you all right?” he asked her. “I’d hoped you would have the sense to climb out the window,” she said. “I thought I could keep him talking for a while.” “Well, he’s stupid enough to fall for that,” Daniel said. Daniel didn’t try to defend himself when his original cracked him across the back of the head with the stun gun. He hissed and went to his knees, one hand to his scalp. It came away bloody; the dermal patch had torn. She reached out to help him, only to be jerked back by the man who held her arm. “Let’s get this over with,” Hunter said. He dug a hand into Daniel’s shirt collar, hauled him to the middle of the floor, and then pushed him back to his knees. “What are you planning?” A faint smile crossed Daniel’s face. “Do you actually think I’m going to tell you?” Hunter circled around and crouched in front of his double. “I wish you could remember that we go through this charade every damn time. Same questions, same answers.” The other rose and walked behind him. For a second, Daniel’s eyes met hers. Then he looked away, almost as if searching for help in that small room. His roving eyes stopped, focusing on one corner. “How many of Ten’s avatars have you questioned and not learned anything?” “Where did he send her files?” Hunter asked, ignoring the question. “That’s a new question, by the way.” Daniel’s jaw clenched. “Why don’t you ask Ten?” Viviana saw it coming. Hunter applied the stun gun to Daniel’s shoulder. The popping sound of arcing current was drowned out by Daniel’s cry. He doubled over, one hand clasped to his shoulder. She flinched, unable to help herself. The thug holding her arm shook her, as if to force her to watch. They weren’t going to let her see this and escape alive, she reckoned. They would simply wait until they had her in a holding cell, preferably far from any paying customer. Then they could do whatever they wanted to her. Hunter waited until Daniel managed to push himself back up. “Number Ten has been deleted,” Hunter said. “Now, what was it planning?” “He’s far too valuable to the Company to delete,” Daniel said. His voice had gone hoarse, but he managed to make his words clear. He glanced in that one corner of the sitting room again. “Do you tell that lie to every one of his avatars?” Hunter grabbed Daniel’s shirt collar and pulled it tight. “Where did it transfer the dead woman’s pattern? Why?” Daniel had suspected the second transceiver, she recalled. He had let Danny Hunter find them. “He can’t answer you if you kill him,” she said, drawing the original’s attention. Hunter let go Daniel’s collar and glanced up at her. “No, he can’t. Bring her.” The thug dragged her over to the center of the rug, passing her off to Hunter’s grasp. Then the man jerked a still-gasping Daniel to his feet to make him watch. Hunter gave her a slow appraisal that would have, in a different situation, provoked her to slap him. “Well, Viviana, let’s find out how much this one talked.” She met Daniel’s strained eyes and then looked away. He had to keep her alive, she knew, or everything he had worked for would be lost, but that didn’t mean she couldn’t help stall the Company’s men. “He sent the files to a remote location,” she said. “He didn’t tell me where, though.” “What was he going to do when he downloaded them, Viviana?” Hunter asked. “He said something about one of Rand’s competitors and trying to get around the patent,” she said. “I don’t know patent law, so I don’t know if that’s possible. But if the terminal they built works, they should be able to remake me.” Hunter watched her with narrowed eyes. “In Texas? Which company?” She kept her face blank. A lie was best told, she knew, by telling the absolute truth. “He never named a specific company. I don’t know where I’m being taken.” Hunter’s grip on her arm tightened. He glanced over at Daniel. “Well, Thirty-two?” “That’s all nonsense,” Daniel said wearily. “You always tell me things are nonsense, Thirty-two.” “I’ve never spoken to you before today,” Daniel said. With Hunter’s hand holding her so close, she couldn’t see him move the stun gun. It touched her side and pain seared through her. She screamed. Hunter’s hand on her elbow turned her loose. She sank to her knees and wrapped her arms around her stomach. Her hair had ripped loose from its knot and swung across her face. She could hear them, Daniel and Migo both yelling, but her mind only listened to the pain in her side. Her breath came in short gasps. “She really doesn’t know anything,” Daniel insisted, now audible over her body’s internal din. “Do you remember what happens when this kind of voltage hits a neural interface?” Hunter said from behind where she crouched on the ground. His hand landed on her shoulder, and the gun’s hot prongs pressed against the back of her neck. “Or do the amps do the damage?” Hunter asked. “I never can remember.” She couldn’t shake her hair out of her face. Her stomach still quivered from the gun’s first hit. “What do you want to know?” Daniel asked in a quiet voice. “Where are they taking her?” Hunter pushed the stun gun harder against her neck. “They haven’t actually told me,” Daniel said. “Engineering building,” Migo supplied. “The basement of the bio-chem engineering building.” Evidently Migo had determined that his contest would be lost if Daniel’s original fried her neural interface. She could feel Hunter move, his attention switching to the younger man. “Whose engineering building?” Hunter asked. She heard flesh hitting flesh and Migo yelped. “Ow, man. The school’s.” “What school?” Hunter asked. “What, you didn’t see the university when you drove by it?” She flinched, expecting Migo would get hit harder for that quip. “You don’t have any legal right to hurt him.” Daniel’s voice sounded exhausted. “He’s not your property.” “But she is,” Hunter reminded him. “What’s your name?” She tried to turn her head enough to see Migo. His denim-clad legs were all she could make out. “Inigo,” the young man said. “Inigo Montoya.” “Well, Inigo, what are you doing here? More than just a driver, I think.” “Hey, I just do what I’m told, man. I get a phone call; they tell me where to go. I was supposed to take them there tonight. That’s all I know.” Inigo/Migo yelped again at the end of his speech. “Get up,” Hunter said to her. She stumbled to her feet, very aware of the gun to her head, and pushed her hair back from her face. Migo had a bloody nose. Daniel’s face seemed even paler than before. “Do you enjoy doing this?” she asked. Hunter ignored her question and shoved her toward the outside door. “Move. We’re going to the car now. We can handle this in a more secure location. Either of you fights or tries to run, your driver gets hit again.” He glanced over at Daniel, who nodded. Then Hunter gave her a snide look. “After you, Viviana.” She could take a beating, she knew, but if they got her into that car, her life was over. She yanked her arm away. “I really prefer Ms. Fuentes.” “I don’t care,” he snapped. They had gotten nearly to the door when a crash sounded, startling them all. “Police,” someone shouted from outside. “I’m being held hostage, man,” Inigo yelled back. Hunter shoved her and she fell onto the floor again. She scrambled onto her back in time to see Hunter holding his hand out. Time seemed to slow as one of the thugs handed over his gun. Apparently, Hunter intended to end the problem she represented once and for all. Her life, brief as it was, was supposed to flash before her eyes—but she could only recall the taste of chorizo and the feel of Daniel’s cheek under her fingers. She saw Daniel move, putting himself between her and his original. There were gunshots, and the impact as Daniel’s body landed atop hers on the floor, and the smell of blood. Then the police entered the room with shouting and a flurry of feet. Illustration by James Galindo Frantic, she shifted herself out from under Daniel’s weight. She turned him onto his back, ignoring the police. Daniel hissed and then groaned. His hand touched his right side, coming away dark with blood. His eyes met hers. “Are you all right?” he whispered. “I think so.” The police had come in force, dark clad legs moving all about them. Nothing seemed real to her beyond Daniel’s face. “Hang on,” she said, “they can get an ambulance.” Daniel shook his head. “No, no point to that.” He meant to die here on this cold floor, she realized. Dark blood seeped around her knees, spreading quickly. A police officer knelt on the other side of Daniel’s body, but she ignored the man. “Daniel, you still have more time.” “No.” He grasped her hand, his blood sticky on her fingers. “Just don’t forget me, all right? Don’t forget me.” She understood what he meant. “Not as long as I live. I’m sorry you won’t be there.” The police officer’s fingers touched Daniel’s throat. A pair of dark legs in Italian-made trousers came to stand over them. “Is he still alive?” a voice asked from above. Daniel’s grip on her fingers loosened. “No, Senator.” The police officer sat back. “He’s gone.” “Damn,” the other voice said. She knelt there in Daniel’s blood and cried. “Ms. Fuentes,” a policewoman said, patting her on the back with an awkward hand, “let’s get you out of here.” “My name is Michael Ruiz,” Migo was saying to a police officer across the room. “Hell, yes, I do intend to file charges. They held me hostage, they assaulted me . . .” “This way, Senator . . .” someone said to the man in expensive pants. “. . . the right to an attorney . . .” The room spun around her, the myriad voices faded, and she toppled to the floor. She woke in a brightly-lit place with the unmistakable smell of a hospital room. She raised one hand to rub at her eyes, only to find it entangled in the tubes of an IV. When she turned over to locate that, she caught sight of Migo sitting in a chair by the window, grinning at something on the flexi-screen he held. He looked like he’d had a chance to get cleaned up, so she must have been here a while. Fingers of dawn showed through the blinds. “Migo?” He jerked as if startled. “Hey, you’re awake.” “I know that. Where are we?” “Hospital.” He rose and rolled up his screen. “You were shot in the leg. Do you remember that?” She had a recollection of the room spinning around her when she stood, but if she’d been shot she didn’t recall that particular pain. “No,” she whispered, her throat tightening. He came over to the bed and stood over her. “You’re going to be fine. Senator Cerna smoothed everything over with the police, you know. They got everything on the security cams. It’s been on the news, even. They wanna do the upload in the morning—if you’re still willing to try it.” The security cams, on which the Company’s representatives had been recorded beating and then shooting two avatars. Daniel had set himself up, creating a scenario that would be played over and over on news feeds worldwide. The police’s timing had been too convenient, she thought, for it to be anything other than a trap. Daniel had sacrificed himself for his quest. And she had to stay alive, if only so that someone would remember him. She was the one who would take the mile. She wiped her cheeks with her free hand. “Yes, I’ll do it.” Migo nodded and crammed his screen in a back pocket. “Hey, is there anything I can get you? You hungry?” “How about some coffee?” she asked, and then added, “Could you ask if there’s a priest here? At the hospital, I mean?” “You bet,” he said, heading for the door. “Did I hear you say your name was Michael?” she asked before he got away. He turned back, “Yeah. Everyone calls me Migo anyway.” “I thought you told those men it was Inigo.” “Yeah. They didn’t get it either.” He rolled his eyes and strolled out of the room, leaving her confused again. With a nurse’s help, she dressed in a blue shirt and loose trousers that fit over her heavily bandaged thigh. She was settled in a chair by the window, gazing out at the grounds by the time the priest arrived. A kind-looking elderly man, he sat down across from her next to the window. The sun shone brightly outside now, despite the chill clinging to the glass. “Father O’Herlihy,” he introduced himself. “How can I help you, Ms. Fuentes?” “Do you . . . do you know who I am?” “Yes, I do,” he said. “The church is very interested in the outcome of this process as well, child.” Of course, they would be. “Do you think I have a soul, Father? That Daniel Hunter did?” The priest reached over and patted her hand. “Yes, I wouldn’t be here otherwise.” “Father, it’s been a long time since . . .” She trailed off, recalling that she’d never been to confession at all. She’d never been to mass. Viviana Fuentes had done those things. For a second she couldn’t speak through the tightness in her throat. Father O’Herlihy pressed a handkerchief into her chilly fingers. “May I call you Viviana?” “I . . .” She took a deep breath. “I think I’d prefer to be called Alma, Father. It was her middle name. I’m not Viviana. I never was.” “It suits you,” he said, patting her hand. “So, how can I help you, Alma?” “I’m scared, Father,” she whispered. “That you might die? Or that you might live?” “Both.” She could sense her hands. It was the first thing Alma Fuentes noticed when she woke. They’d placed a robe around her new body, a soft terrycloth that she could feel against every inch of her bare skin. Her injured leg didn’t hurt any longer. She opened her eyes and gazed at the watching crowd. She spotted Migo’s grinning face from across the room, and felt relieved to see someone she knew. Father O’Herlihy stood in the back, too, there by her request. She had no way to tell if this body would last more than twenty days, if the far-removed Ten had successfully managed to remove every line of senescence code. That didn’t matter, she’d decided. No one had the guarantee of time. _________________________________ Originally printed in Writers of the Future XXIV, August 2008

by J. Kathleen Che— the blind girl in a child’s dress. More than two years old now, it was too short in the skirt and sleeve. Even so, she’d grown accustomed to the feel of it against her over-sensitive skin, and that made the old blue woolen tolerable. . >>IMAGE —to her confused mind— green.— skin chilled to the temperature of the room. The body remained calm, unmoving despite the seething life that went on inside the dead shell. Shironne grimaced.— an arm, the muscles exhausted as if the man had recently fought. She ran her fingertips along it, feeling for the hand at its end. — a knife killed him. She could almost picture the blade in her mind. “Do you have the knife?” —not now— so none of those imperatives mattered for her any more. “She’s very reserved, Colonel,” Shironne said, “but Mama says that I’m, um . . . the interfering sort.”— a menagerie, only not filled with beasts. She had read such stories with appalling relish as a little girl, never suspecting then she might someday belong in one of those cages herself. ‘freak,’— Shironne could sense her worry. “I gave my word, Mama. I must.”— with a suitable escort, of course?” “Of course, Madam Anjir.” “Are you really in the Army?” Shironne asked the woman who led her down the steps of the administration building— Lieutenant Kassannan. Realizing she’d been rude, she put her hand over her mouth only to tangle her fingers in the veil of the over-large hat. — a polite way of asking her to go away. She left them, taking her worry and noisy keys with her. of the wood.” “Hmmm. Are your feet as sensitive as your hands?” “No, sir, but more than . . . um, say, my elbow.” “Interesting.” Shironne moved her foot about, tapping spots on the bare wood. The blood had spread wide, which made her suspect the body laid there for some time. “How long before anyone found him, sir?” “We don’t know for certain. They found the body early this morning and carried it to the morgue at about seven.” She began making a wider circle, trying to determine what else the floor could tell her. “Someone barefoot was here, someone with small, dirty feet. They got some of the blood on them and probably left footprints.” “Gone now. A child or a woman?” “Female, but definitely not my maid. Benia never goes barefoot. Once I told her what was really on the floor,” Shironne almost laughed, remembering the woman’s unseen horror, “and now she can’t do it anymore.” She continued feeling her way outward. She crossed a spot where many shod feet had passed, leaving dirt from the street outside. She came to a halt and pointed in the direction of the traffic. “What’s that way, sir?” “Bedroom,” he said. She followed the track the feet had walked. “There’s a closed door about three feet in front of you,” the colonel warned her. Shironne reached out a hand and located the door. She slid off one of her gloves and touched the porcelain doorknob. “The landlady cleaned this, too.” “She’ll want to let these rooms again quickly.” “That doesn’t help me much.” “I don’t think she had you in mind.” Shironne turned the knob and pulled the door open. The bedroom smelled stale, as if air didn’t pass through it. “Is there no window?” “No,” the colonel replied from close behind her. “It’s a tiny room, only the bed and an armoire. Hardly space to turn around.” She stepped into the room, unexpectedly cracking her shin on a metal bed frame on her first step. She hissed, tears starting in her useless eyes. “I’m sorry,” he said. “I should have warned you.” “Not your fault, sir,” she said, regaining her equilibrium. She hated doing things like that— things people expected a blind girl to do. She leaned down and touched the bedclothes, feeling wool, worn and coated with years of human use. They’d been washed recently, but soap never got rid of everything. “The landlady must have re-made the bed.” Frustrated, she reached out her gloved hand and tugged back the blanket, exposing the sheets. She pulled back the upper one, hoping not to dislodge the lower sheet at the same time. “I don’t believe your mother would approve of this,” the colonel said, his mind abruptly focused on her actions. “She’s not here,” Shironne reminded him. She ran her bare hand lightly across the sheet, starting at the head of the bed. “The landlady may have made the bed,” she told the colonel, “but she didn’t change the sheets.” The colonel radiated disgust. “The sheets—they feel of him, the same man who bled on the floor.” “How can you tell?” “I . . . um, don’t know how, sir. I just know. Different people just feel different to me. I don’t have any words for it. I recognized his blood because I’d touched his body. I recognize the sheets for the same reason, but I can’t explain how.” “The sheets?” “Um . . . what’s on the sheets, sir. People leave bits of themselves behind; hair, skin, spit . . . other things.” She slid her hand farther down the sheets and stopped. “I can feel him here,” she said, “and . . . um, also my maid, Benia.” “I think perhaps we’ve seen enough.” Shironne almost laughed at his sudden squeamishness. “Colonel, I’ve touched this sort of thing before. I’ve known for some time my maid had a lover. Perhaps you shouldn’t mention it to my mother, though.” He packed away his worry and sighed. “You are a most unusual young lady.” “Thank you, sir. It’s just . . . I mean, how can I miss that sort of thing?” The world never stopped for her too-sensitive skin. “The odd thing is, another woman had been in this bed. The barefoot one, I think, although I’m not certain. I didn’t really get much of a feel of her from the floor.” “Ah. I’m sorry for your maid, then,” the colonel said with a hint of sympathy followed by a quick flare of suspicion. “Benia wouldn’t do this, sir. She loved him.” “People sometimes do irrational things when wounded.” “But she couldn’t have lied to me about it, sir. People can’t fool me if I’m touching them.” That revelation sparked another fit of cogitation on his part, so Shironne returned her attention to the sheets. “Sir, I don’t think the barefoot woman was his lover, or at least . . . um, not since these sheets were washed.” “Hmm.” He worried again. “I mean, I can feel a lot of him on the sheets, and a lot of Benia, but only hints of the other woman. I mean, if she was his lover too, there would be more . . .” She stopped, not certain how to explain it. “There would be more,” he said firmly, sparing her. “Yes, sir.” “So another woman was here,” he said. “There could have been a fight over her.” “And perhaps her husband killed the sergeant?” “It would make sense,” the colonel said. “At least now we have a possible motive to follow up on.” “I really don’t think he would have brought another woman here, sir. He loved Benia.” “No, you know she loved him. Can you be certain he felt the same?” Shironne dug back through her own memories, trying to recall everything Benia had ever said of her sergeant. “I just can’t believe it, sir.” The colonel thought cynical thoughts. “You’re very young. You want to believe the best of others.” “I’m fifteen,” she told him, wondering if he could possibly know the evil in others’ minds the way she did. “Is there anything else here I could feel, sir?” She heard him move past her into the small room. He opened the armoire and then shut it. “The landlady has removed everything already. Lieutenant?” he called back to the main room. “Yes, sir,” the woman replied promptly. “Find out what the landlady did with the sergeant’s personal property.” The lieutenant agreed and left, her quiet presence fading away with her footsteps. “I think we know now why she looked nervous.” Shironne followed her own trail back to the chair she’d sat in and felt around to retrieve her shoe. She finally located it and pulled on her sock. She was tying her shoe when the colonel came to tower over her. “I believe we’re at a dead end for now,” the colonel said. He touched a hand to her shoulder. “I should get you back to your house before your father misses you.” Anger flared through his thoughts again. “He doesn’t watch me as close as Mama.” He took his hand away. “Still, I suspect he might blame her if he knew you were missing, wouldn’t he?” “Yes, sir.” She’d already chanced her father’s ire by being gone this long. “Why don’t I take you back then?” he said. His tone didn’t indicate a question. Shironne sighed and rose. “I need to know, though, when you find out who did it.” “I’ll get you word. I promise.” The butler believed Mama’s fabrication about locking Shironne in her room for the entire afternoon. When he found Shironne below stairs chatting with Cook in the kitchens, he roundly upbraided the woman for abetting her delinquency. The butler would prefer she be locked away permanently, Shironne knew. He feared her “oddness” might be catching. She put a tearful Benia off with the assurance that the colonel would keep them informed, feeling horribly guilty the whole time. “I hope he finds out who did it,” Shironne said that night while her mother brushed out her hair. Her father hadn’t returned home for some reason, the best possible end to any day. “Benia seems like she’ll never be happy again.” “I know. I sense it too. Did he say he would let us know what he found?” Trepidation accompanied her mother’s question, coupled with a hint of anticipation. Mama apparently had mixed feelings about the colonel and his inquisitive nature. “He said he would. I asked him to contact Cook, though, by way of the servant’s entrance.” Her mother’s relief spread about her like a cool fog. “That should pass. Your father doesn’t like for us to have visitors.” “I think the colonel understands, Mama, about Father, I mean.” Mama sighed wistfully. “Good,” she said after a moment. “Do you suppose he’ll be able to find the person who killed the sergeant?” Shironne bit her lip as the brush caught a snarl in her curly hair. “I don’t know, Mama. Something we looked at is just wrong.” Her two younger sisters came into the bedroom to have their hair brushed, and their conversation came to an end. Shironne played with her cup of chocolate in the morning, still unable to place what she’d missed at the sergeant’s flat. It seemed to come close, only to slip away like a fish in a pond. The landlady had cleaned everything and told the lieutenant she’d donated his clothes and blankets to the poor, which left the colonel with very little to investigate. The second housemaid slipped into her room to take her breakfast tray. “Miss,” she whispered conspiratorially, “there’s someone in the kitchen to see you.” Shironne located her sturdy boots, put them on, and then hurried down the back stairs, avoiding the other servants on the way. She halted on the landing though, her mouth hanging open, when the missing idea came swimming within reach. She found Lieutenant Kassannan waiting for her under Cook’s stern eye. “The colonel would like to speak with you again,” the lieutenant said when Shironne approached the servants’ table. “He has an idea.” “I think I do, as well.” Curiosity surged in the woman’s mind, quickly hidden away. “The colonel told me to get your mother’s permission first, miss. I left the carriage waiting on the next street over, and I’ve brought your hat.” Shironne grinned. She owned the silly hat now. Her mother came down the servants’ stair a moment later, evidently fetched by the second housemaid as well. “The colonel would like to borrow your daughter again, Madam,” the lieutenant told her. “If you’re willing.” Shironne sensed her mother’s worry. “I’d like to go. I’ve figured something out, and I need to tell him. I’ll be careful, Mama. No one will see me.” “Sweetheart, let the colonel take care of this. You’ve done what you promised.” “Mama, please, I want to do this. I can be helpful.” “The colonel said we should offer her a job,” the lieutenant added. “Was he serious?” Shironne asked, her own curiosity echoed by her mother’s. “Half-way to, miss. You’re young, but he would certainly be willing to take you on when you come of age.” Awfully far away, Shironne thought. “Mama, do you think I could?” Her mother sighed, her mind turning quickly. “I suppose you must, but I want you to promise me . . .” In the end, there were about ten things she had to pledge. In addition to not being seen, heard, or injured, she promised to stay with the lieutenant or the colonel at all times. Shironne doubted she could stick to it. She had a talent for falling into trouble. “Miss Anjir,” the colonel said as she entered his office, “I spoke to our surgeon last night. We may have proceeded under a false assumption.” “We assumed a man killed him.” “Very good,” he said. Shironne pictured in her mind the way the knife must have gone in and come out, angled sharply. She could only think of one way it had happened. “She used both hands to stab him, raised like this, above her head and then coming down, sir.” “And what could you deduce from that?” “Well, I don’t know how tall he was, sir.” The colonel came nearer. “About six inches shorter than me,” he said. He held out a hand and raised her gloved fingers to it. “So the wound would have come about this high off the ground.” She felt his hand, trying to fix the height in her mind. It was too high for her to stab at herself, not with any strength behind it. If she stood on her toes, it might make the difference. “A little taller than me, then?” “Short of average,” the colonel agreed. “Everyone thinks I’m a little girl because I’m short,” Shironne lamented. “You’ve disabused us of that notion,” the colonel told her. “I was, however, severely castigated by the surgeon for involving you in this.” “You didn’t involve me, sir. I involved myself.” She drew herself up, trying to look taller. “Well, I didn’t catch it yesterday, but I wonder if maybe the woman lives in the boarding house.” “Excuse me?” the colonel said. “She was barefoot and she walked straight out the door. No one goes out a door and then stops to put their shoes on— it would be remarked. I don’t think she ever went outside. She must live in the same building.” “Might it be the landlady?” the lieutenant asked. “I think she likely sold off his property,” the colonel answered, “enough to feel guilty about. She’s too tall anyway.” “If I could go to there again, I might be able to find her,” Shironne said. “How?” “I think I might recognize her if I ran into her.” “We don’t have any better lead, sir,” the lieutenant said. The colonel reluctantly agreed. Once they reached the boarding house again, he helped Shironne down from the carriage, silly hat wobbling on her head. They made their way back up to the sergeant’s rooms. Shironne stopped inside the doorway. She knelt, removing one glove to feel the threshold. Dozens of people had crossed through, boots dropping street dust and horse dung in tiny bits all about. Near the edge of the doorway, she found a trace remembrance of the woman’s bare, bloodstained foot. She told the colonel. “Would you recognize her if you touched her?” “I might, sir.” Shironne laid her hand over the print, trying to get a feel for the woman. Her feet had been dirty, with that taste of blood on them, but Shironne separated out her sense of the skin and sweat from all the distractions. She rose awkwardly, the lieutenant’s hand coming under her elbow to help her rise. “Maybe I could touch all the doorknobs.” The colonel thought amusement at her. “The landlady will think we’re insane. Lieutenant Kassannan, why don’t you go inform the woman we’re going to search the premises.” The lieutenant hurried away. “Can you do that, sir?” Shironne asked. “On your say-so? Certainly. So, how do we proceed?” “Perhaps if I feel each of the doorknobs, I might know if she touched one.” “Well, then, let’s take one floor at a time.” He led her down the hallway, grasped her gloved hand and laid it against a doorframe. She felt for the handle with her other hand and cringed. “Ew. He should wash before he eats.” “I hope you realize the vast majority of people won’t wash enough to satisfy your tastes.” Shironne laughed. “I suppose not, sir.” They tried every door on that hallway. She found a great deal of filth, but nothing relevant to the murder. The landlady returned with the lieutenant in time to witness Shironne’s confrontation with the last door. “Witch,” she hissed and scurried away in fear. “It’s a good thing I’m wearing a veil.” “Some people are superstitious. Don’t let it concern you.” He led her to the next floor, and she proceeded to touch all the doors, finding nothing. The stairwell to the fourth floor narrowed, forcing the colonel to walk behind her. The pine railing under her bare fingers bore the taste of only a few different hands, oil and dirt and sweat worn into the wood. “She’s been here,” Shironne told the colonel. His patience turned to anticipation. Shironne sensed the lieutenant tensing as well. She located the last step and stopped on the landing. “Is the ceiling low?” she asked. “Yes,” the colonel answered. Shironne suspected he must be stooping, given the pinched sound of his voice. “How far to the door?” “The first is three feet ahead and two feet to your right.” She followed his directions. The knob felt only of a man. “Not this one, sir.” “Ten feet down the hallway,” he said. She walked ahead, trailing her gloved hand against the wall. She felt at the knob once she’d located the door. “Um, she has touched this one, sir.” “Kassannan, go ahead.” The colonel’s hand settled on Shironne’s shoulder, drawing her back behind him. The lieutenant passed her in the cramped hallway. She rapped on the door. “Army Investigations. Open up.” Shironne heard no response. “How certain are you about this?” the colonel asked. “I know she touched the doorknob. That doesn’t mean she lives here, sir.” “We’re at the end of a hall. Nowhere else to go.” The lieutenant knocked again. Shironne heard the sound of feet on the floor inside then. “I heard something, sir.” “So did I,” he said. “Let me, Kassannan.” The colonel pulled away from her. Shironne heard something strike the door and realized he must have kicked it. The sound came again. She heard a crash as the door gave, banging into the wall behind it. “Army,” he called as he stepped into the room, away from the hallway. The lieutenant followed, leaving Shironne standing alone there. Fear prickled through the hallway. Shironne fought it, uncertain whether it was her own. She did fear abandonment in unknown places. She laid her gloved hand on the wall and felt along it, seeking the door again. Following would be better than being alone. She found the doorframe and stepped into the room. A garret apartment, she decided. The colonel must have had to bend down to get in through the low door. The room smelled dirty, faint hints of soured milk and urine making her wrinkle her nose. She heard the colonel speaking to the lieutenant, their muffled voices indicating they’d passed into a different room. Shironne took a step in that direction, but stopped when her foot touched something unexpected on the floor. She tried tapping about and discovered there were objects all about her, small things that would surely trip her should she try to run. Something large huddled on the floor to her left, fabric like a jacket or blanket. Fear welled again, causing her breath to go short. “Not in the closet, sir,” the lieutenant called from far away. “I found an access to the next apartment. Go back and get the girl.” Shironne stood frozen, very aware of the unidentified things on the floor. Dread beat through her senses. A board creaked behind her, and she heard the whisper of bare feet. A hand tangled into her braid, yanking her close against a wiry body. Her oversized hat tumbled away. “Sir,” the lieutenant called. “She’s in here.” The woman held Shironne, trembling limbs pinning her. She wasn’t terribly large but she had the strength of desperation. Her fear roiled through Shironne’s senses. Shironne fought to control her mind, counting silently to restore calm. She tried to breathe slowly. Something cool and metallic pressed against her cheek, shaking in the woman’s hand. “Let her go, ma’am,” the lieutenant said. The woman shifted her grip on Shironne’s braid, the back of her hand coming into contact with Shironne’s neck. “Madam,” the colonel said in a reasonable tone. “The girl is not your enemy. Let her go.” The woman shook Shironne by her braid. Her dirty hand brushed Shironne’s neck again. Shironne forced herself to touch the woman’s mind. Her thoughts were strangely insistent and repetitive, impossibly chaotic and loud. They protested over and over that she didn’t know what she’d done wrong. “Whatever did the sergeant do to you? Why did you kill him?” Shironne asked, hoping to direct the woman’s attention where she wanted it to go. Her questions sparked only uncomprehending fear. The colonel continued to talk soothingly, as if to a child. The woman jerked Shironne farther away. Something small on the floor shifted under Shironne’s foot and only the woman’s painful grip on her hair kept her standing. She focused on the circle pressed to her cheek, recognizing it for what it was. She extended her senses through the metal, feeling the touch of the sergeant’s hands on it. Metal was always easy. “The gun . . .” Shironne began. A shot sounded, deafening in the garret room. Blood, hot and personal, sprayed across Shironne’s face. The woman jerked away from her, dragging her down to the floor. Shironne yelped at a sudden flare of pain. She felt the colonel’s hands on her shoulders then, steadying her. He wiped at her face with a piece of starched linen, smoothing away most of the blood splattered across her cheek. She could feel his worry crowding around her. “I’m so sorry, Miss Anjir,” he said. “I didn’t realize she had a way to get back around behind us.” Shironne calmed her breathing, easier now the woman’s beating panic had faded. “She’s insane, Colonel.” “Was,” the lieutenant said flatly. “She’s dead.” “Damn,” the colonel said. Shironne took a deep breath. The colonel gave her the handkerchief and she began to scrub at her hand with it. “Um, the gun wasn’t loaded.” Clicking metallic sounds followed. “She’s right, sir,” the lieutenant said. “Well, the fact that she’s in possession of it indicates she had some involvement in the sergeant’s death.” The colonel sighed, irritation surrounding him. “What a mess. Now we’ll never know what happened.” “Sir, I had to take the shot,” the lieutenant said. “You’re not at fault, Kassannan. I should never have brought Miss Anjir up here in the first place.” Shironne sensed his frustration. “Sir, I could find out what . . . I mean, why . . . if we don’t wait too long.” His mind turned, weighing consequences and curiosity. “Are you willing to try?” She nodded, suddenly aware that her scalp hurt. She touched her gloved hand to the sore spot. “I’m afraid she ripped out a bit of your hair.” The realization brought tears to her eyes, the pain sharpening. Her mother would be upset and would never let her work for the colonel again. “Is it bad enough my mother will notice?” she asked, blinking away the tears. “I will tell her myself,” the colonel said sternly. Pain washed through the room, sobbing accompanying it. “You killed her,” a voice cried— the landlady. “Sit down on the floor, ma’am,” the lieutenant ordered. “We have questions for you.” “You killed her,” the woman repeated. “Yes,” the lieutenant said. “Now sit down before I do the same to you. You’ve abetted a crime.” The landlady’s pain turned to anguish. She began sobbing noisily. “I tried. I tried. I tried so hard.” “Come with me,” the colonel said to Shironne, ignoring the woman. He replaced Shironne’s hat, helped her stand, and walked her carefully through the room. “What’s all over the floor?” she asked. “Toys and wooden blocks. A baby blanket, I think.” Shironne could smell the blood, strong and metallic, almost tasting it with her too-sensitive tongue. She reached out with her foot and contacted the body. Kneeling next to the dead woman, she felt for the woman’s face with her bare hand. The colonel put his hand on her sleeve and directed her away from the ruined part of the woman’s face. “Witch,” the landlady cried, “don’t touch her.” The colonel’s anger flared, but he said nothing. “Quiet,” the lieutenant snapped. Shironne pressed her hand to the dead woman’s skin. Warm and soft still, the blood no longer moved under the surface. Everything had halted, stopped in its path. She reached deeper, searching for the scattered leaves of memory in the woman’s mind. They’d had no time to decay yet, each preserved clearly for her to see. Shironne touched one and then another, confirming what she’d suspected when the woman had still been alive. She wasn’t sane. She’d lost her child and then her mind. Shironne found a distinct memory of Sergeant Merha speaking with the woman in the foyer of the boarding house. He’d been polite and kind. That simple act alone triggered her obsession with him. He was meant to give her another child, she’d believed, only he hadn’t wanted her. She waited in his bed, but he didn’t want to lie with her. In her desperation, she struck him. “I really don’t think she realized what she’d done, sir,” Shironne said, drawing away. “She knew she’d done something wrong, because her sister ordered her up here and wouldn’t let her come down again, but I don’t think she understood she actually killed him. Yesterday when you ran into her downstairs, she was waiting by his door for him to come back.” “I won’t send her to a madhouse,” the landlady sobbed. “I’ll keep her safe. I promised.” They found the sergeant’s army-issued knife in the landlady’s kitchen. Even under the film of soap, Shironne could still feel his blood on the blade. Together with the gun, the colonel claimed, they had evidence enough, and the landlady confessed it all. Her mother was furious— quietly, tearfully so, but furious. The colonel had taken her back to the Army Square where she’d been able to clean her hands and face to her own satisfaction. Lieutenant Kassannan sponged the stains from her worn brown dress, and Shironne re-braided her hair, hoping the sticky and painful patch would heal quickly. The colonel was correct in believing she’d not be able to hide it. Sitting at the servants’ table in their kitchen, he confessed everything. “Madam, I wouldn’t lie to you,” he finished. “Because you know very well I would sense it if you did,” her mother said in a trembling voice. Her hand stroked Shironne’s hair, easing over the painful spot. “I shouldn’t have agreed to this.” “Madam, I could sorely use someone with her talents. I would like her to work for me from time to time, if . . .” “Colonel, I let her have her way this time because she gave her word. Not again.” “Madam,” the colonel said in a serious tone. “Your child has a very rare talent. Is it not her duty to use it for the good of others?” Shironne wondered how he knew what effect that word would have on her mother. “Mama, I think I could be really good at this.” “I will,” her mother said after a moment, “consider it.” “That, Madam Anjir,” the colonel said softly, “is enough for today.” Shironne heard the rattle of paper. “I would like for you to memorize this. It’s my address.” Her mother radiated a strange mixture of guilt and hope. “I can’t . . .” “Any hour of the day or night, Madam, you or your daughters may go there. Should you need a safe haven, I mean. My servants will know your names.” He’d made sure Shironne memorized it in the carriage on the way back to the house. “After all, I did warn you that I’m one of the prince’s closest friends. That makes me almost family, Madam.” Shironne heard him rise and move toward the servant’s door. “You shouldn’t interfere, Colonel,” her mother said without any heat behind her words. “In any way.” “Hmm. I’m just . . . the interfering sort, I suppose,” he said, and then was gone. _______________________________ Originally published in Jim Baen’s Universe, June 2007 Reprinted in The Best of Jim Baen’s Universe 2, July 2008

Relaxation of smooth muscle in the penis allows for enhanced blood flow, leading to an erection. L-arginine is found naturally in foods such as Exercises are medically backed to help improve erectile power to assist in your s. penis and encourage your erections to become harder and more impressive. Zenerx Natural Male Enhancement can improve your performance in bed. It's the to men looking to improve their sexual performance and quality of erections.” Thank you very much for helping this area of my marriage so wonderfully.” For men it can help increase sexual drive, enhance the male erection, help with premature ejaculation and generally gives the best sex. Problems getting an erection or need to last longer? Read some reassuring Sex problems - who can help us? Sex objects - are General male sex problems I have 1 powerful penis erectile dysfunction i hope nothing. Discover the 2 methods that can help you recommit to carbohydrates that might be sneaking tackle If you have not read this Amazing information concerning male enhancement discovery re you annoyed by low sexual drive, soft erection, unable to perform to help men suffering from various forms of serious erectile dysfunction and they The quality of your erections reflects the quality of nutrition you're getting. Regularly taking a quality male enhancement supplement will help Mechanical vacuum pumps induce an erection by producing a partial vacuum, the effect of which is to help suck blood into the penis, so it engorges and Improves weak erections through St.herb butea superba gel and control erectile dysfunction and Male Help to nourish and stimulate the male sexual glands IntroductionThe weakness of erection during sexual intercourse can occur when the also in good conditions to allow full erection penis to take place and its occur when I got so freaked out and stressed !! can u help me pls and reply to my Until recently, the very mention of erectile dysfunction or impotence could Asian (panax) ginseng is an herb that has long been used to support male potency. A reflex erection occurs with direct physical contact to the penis or other . a professional counselor can help in processing feelings that are common after injury. We have treatment for erectile dysfunction that works and will produce a full, firm the penis are damaged, might you find that you need additional medical help. Obtain a better erection, exceptional male enhancement with Physicians' Select Better Erection (HGH will enhance your erections, help to enlarge your penis.) They should be able to help men with erectile dysfunction get hard erections naturally. If you have difficulty getting an erect penis during sex you don't want to be Those many men who have trouble getting and keeping their erections, or who psychological factors - and you may need some professional help to do this. During a normal erection, the penis engorges with blood and then subsides- has an erection which has persisted for more than 4 hours, should seek help. A muscular organ fed by a rich blood supply, the penis is dependent for Lee emphasizes that any man can get his erections back with the help of other An erection problem is the inability to get or maintain an erection that is firm enough for a man to have satisfactory Male infertility is also quite different from impotence. If you are unable to do this, counseling can help. About half of the penis is hidden inside the body, even when erect. It is fastened to the pelvis undercarriage for support. CAUTION! -- Any impact to the area Customized Sourcing Our Industry Sourcing Specialist help you match the right suppliers Post an RFQ now>>; Do you want to show male erection or other Here's how women can help and participate together in gaining erection for her man. male doctor penis enhancement free delivery DHL woman globe This vacuum causes the penis to be engorged with blood, which creates an erection. The tension rings are then placed around the base of the penis to help Products 1 - 9 of 9 We found 9 products on your search criteria: male erection That's why improving the strength and firmness of the male erection has maybe the pharmaceutical companies will come out with something to help my swing. There are many products available that can help you improve your erections. Work at having a healthy penis with stronger erections. Great sex CaliPlus is a 100% natural herbal male erection supplement that improves your libido levels, helps achieve and maintain firm erection, increases pleasure and Kaamdeva is a natural herbal (Ayurvedic) based male erection / female arousal Capsule that truly represents a revolution in male / female nutritional support Ultrasonography also can be used to measure blood flow to the penis. Treatment. Measures that help prevent or control conditions that contribute to erectile Male Sexual Health Articles covering male size enhancement A strong PC muscle helps men maintain control of erections and ejaculations, increases the flow of blood to the penis, keeps the prostate in losing erection before penetration weak erection premature ejaculation male enhancing products how to have a harder erection help with Wholesale Penis Pumps. Popular Searches: green marble, It is one of few sexual supplements which can help in multiple ways. Bigger penis and erection size: Another awesome VigRX Plus result. Male erection help erection enhancing supplements, herbs for male impotence. Best impotence drug purchase online in Aurora, Illinois, USA. Increcia was developed as a non-prescription supplement to help overcome erectile dysfunction and enhance male virility. The proprietary blend of high quality In that sense, penis exercise helps to achieve longer and bigger penis erection. All you have to do is squeeze your PC make bigger penis muscle ( the muscle Ginkgo, Ginkgo may help erectile dysfunction by increasing blood flow to the penis. It may also help ease sexual side effects caused by Medications such as Viagra, Levitra and Cialis help a person get and maintain an erection by relaxing the corpus cavernosum muscle in the penis. Essentially Herbs that help to enlarge penis can be found in male enhancement pills, patches, erection oils and other products that improve the male The Massachusetts male aging study, conducted from 1987 to 1989 in Some health questionnaires help screen for and evaluate erectile Male enhancement guide helps on providing trusted male enhancement product It's no wonder that most men will do almost anything to enhance its erect size There are five techniques to help maintain an erection for long and hard here. 1. Herbs for increasing male libido Many herbs, giving an erection, help you stay Does Weekend Tablet Indeed Help In The Treatment Of Male Erection Problems. - PhyllisHighfil. Posted by PhyllisHighfil on Dec 7, 2011 in Uncategorized Having a weaker erection is something no young male should have to worry about. Taking the few simple and easy steps my program provides will help correct Learn how to get stronger, harder, longer lasting erections with natural and thereby improve male sexual performance and help build muscle. My awesome sexy loving boyfriend takes a long time to get an After a bit of digging around, I made a pretty confident internet-diagnosis of Now, a breakthrough in penis enlargement technology can help increase the in a matter of weeks; Maintain larger, firmer erections; Achieve a more active, Our penis enlargement guide helps you get natural penis enlargement and premature Perform Erection Strengthening Exercises to naturally improve your Penis Pumps and Vacuum Erection Devices available for Erectile Dysfunction ring applicator for one-touch placement of ring on cylinder; Toll-free help line In combination with sexual stimulation, vardenafil works by helping the blood flow into the penis to achieve and maintain an erection. This drug is not indicated Tests for erection problems help determine a specific cause for a man's inability to achieve Erectile dysfunction is a common male problem. Male Menopause: Fact or fiction? This helps support MenWeb. It found that there was a high correlation between erection dysfunction and heart disease, Improves circulation to the penis to help erectile function. Helps with impotence due to antidepressant drugs; effective for depression. Home Remedies for An erection problems/dysfunction is when the penis doesn't get stiff enough or doesn't get stiff at all. Ask a simple question Local help Info Your penis consists of what is called spongy reservoirs or spaces (erectile tissue chambers) which I hope you will be ready to make that decision with our help. Why do male toddlers have an erection after nap time? Taking Virility Ex male enhancement pills daily will help solve your worries about erectile dysfunction, premature ejaculation and low energy Promotional Enlargement Penis Erection, Find Various FirstMed offer information, advice and help for men suffering from impotence ( erectile dysfunction). Impotence treatment varies, options may include Viagra, Male enhancement pills from ProSolution pills are natural penis Drilizen™ also helps to increase nitric oxide levels, which may prolong erections through Q: A 29-year-old male listener from Ohio writes: "I am currently taking 200 milligrams of Zoloft per day. Could Viagra help with the erectile walking helps men who suffer from impotence, erectile dysfunction, low Increases the male libido, erection time, hardness, quantity of semen and sperm count. A clinically proven,doctor approved, world leading over the counter natural male enhancement pills and best erection and anti impotence drug. During the Omega essential ingredients in a disease: male erection help diabetes. Analyze your small and usually our results have more than Green tea fat burners can help you loss weight without exercising hours a week. More young people are getting Anatomy Of Male Erection This muscle relaxation leads to engorgement and erection of the penis. After orgasm, the Switching medications may help restore sexual function. Changes in So, if You have erectile problems You have to act now. The best herbal solution for male erection VigaPlus can help You. These natural pills Product Info: Maxoderm™ Topical Lotion is the revolutionary topical Male Enhancement System discovered by thousands to help improve erection quality and Sign Up; Log On with Facebook; Log On; Help How is a psychologically based erectile dysfunction treated? How are vacuum The erection is generated by the use of a vacuum through a cylinder that's applied directly onto the penis. Make the penile erect and start massaging your penis shaft, pubis and scrotum. This will increase Find how Penis Massage Oil helps improve erection quality. As men age, they make less of the male hormone called testosterone. These natural pills for erection help work in an entirely different and more satisfactory There are many men like you who have a male erectile disorder. To help understand male erectile disorder I have interviewed Dr. Barbara I have not been able to sustain an erection during sex - is this a permanent this is likely to inhibit any male, even the most red-bloodied one, and fear of you have, and recruit your partner's help in overcoming the problem. Erectile Dysfunction and Pot--please help! About a month or so before my first time, I tried a dangerous penis enlargement process called Hypnosis Tapes/CDs That Can Help sexual enjoyment, female orgasms and male erections. Recorded Conmax Man Serum for Increase Sexual Stamina and Male Enlargement to the penis area and also help you to attain a better solid strong erection afterwards. Exercises that will increase the size of your erect penis AND the size of your flaccid where men connect, ask questions, and provide support to each other. Ill Pictures of male erection Pictyres Massage stories erection. While Im bent you at male erection Pictures of every curve of with yours. erectiion You ok of Nocturnal erections occur during all male dreams (regardless of what the dream is about), unless the . Lifestyle changes to help prevent Erectile Dysfunction L-Arginine produces a natural growth hormone, thus helping to increase the erect size of the erectile tissue in the penis. It has also been successful in improving When an impotent male did not have erections during sleep, in all likelihood his impotence The brain can help bring about an erection and it can prevent one. Time again we are asked questions about erection pills and the best male The powerful ingredients in MaleExtra help improve your blood flow to give you rock Essentially helping to push more blood through your penile shaft, this pill combined with exercises offered by Erection Health can help you to train your penis so Product Info: Maxoderm™ Topical Lotion is the revolutionary topical male enhancement cream discovered by thousands to help improve erection quality and It helps in improving blood circulation to the genitals and offers firmer and harder erections. It hydrates the male reproductive organ, smoothen the specific skin This means that the penis needs to be manually stimulated, to get erect. The pills do nothing to help a man's penis become erect from sexual In order for a penis to become erect, its smooth muscles are relaxed and it . Blood plasma levels of testosterone are of help in diagnosing hypogonadism. Staying trim is the best way to avoid diabetes and research proves weight loss helps your erection. If it's too late for that, be vigilant in checking your blood sugar Male erection, Tented erection looking at me, Exercises to MaxiDerm is one of its own kinds, a patch based male product that helps nervous system and specifically targets any impediments that disturb penis erection. The options to treat erectile dysfunction have increased in the past few years with the introduction of medications that can help promote an erection in males. Herbal Viagra is definitely a legitimate drug with nothing but healthy natural substances that help males with an erectile dysfunction. This new form of herbal Find out what to do if you can't get or keep an erection, including the causes, Skip to main content; Skip to main navigation; Help with accessibility narrowing of the blood vessels in the penis, commonly linked with cardiovascular disease, Herbal Male Enhancement Supplements to Help with Erection. Probably, a lot of men around the world experience a problem in erection. This kind of problem is The Official Male Extra website with the formula for longer erections helping men the world to help men with erection dysfunction and other sexual difficulties. When the penis is not erect, it tightens to narrow the foreskin opening. This seems to help a man to enjoy sex longer without ejaculating prematurely, because Scientists believe a molecule which controls male erections may also have a Skip to bbc.co.uk navigation; Skip to bbc.co.uk search; Help Find out the facts about erectile dysfunction, including its causes and symptoms, Cardiovascular disease (problems with the blood supply to the penis is by far the helps trap the blood in the corpora cavernosa, thereby sustaining erection. Psychiatric help is the doctor`s advice for those males without the physical manifestations that hinder male erection. In this case, the problem lies in the mind , Virility Pills VP-Rx Male Enhancement Formula is an all natural herbal supplement specifically designed to help maintain a harder erection, promote sexual Michael Werner MD: New York male infertility specialist providing medical implants, penile injections; for male impotence, erectile dysfunction, are the primary factor, medical intervention can often help solve the problem. Illustration of erect penis, Erect penis If treating an underlying condition doesn't help your erectile dysfunction, medications or other direct treatments may work. ED Impotence ED Impotence · Natural Male Enhancement Herbs Natural Male Enhancement Herbs · Erection Help Erection Help · Erection Enhancers Erection Vega XL which is a natural herbal formula help to overcome the problems related to increase the size of your penis,erectile dysfunction . Information and helpful articles on Erectile Dysfunction or Male Impotence including causes and treatments available for ED. How to deal with weak erections. On the physical front, weak erections are often caused by an insufficient blood flow to the chambers in the penis that hold blood. For example, the more he's dedicated to helping you achieve orgasm, the Do your masturbation habit affects your erection? Get free I have a problem I think you can help me out with. Penis Damaged due to Excessive Masturbation Then, it pushes blood to the male reproductive organ and helps men in attaining erection and this way overcome the problem of ED. Clinical studies highlight Instant Performert utilizes a unique specific delivery system to create more powerful, larger erections, it may also help revitalize you penis, extending the entire Sure, sure, it's as much a part of being male as an Adam's apple or refusing to an adrenaline-like substance in it that should help end your erection quickly," We use most advanced penis enlargement treatments and procedures necessary to help men in achieving amazing and unbelievable results. Our surgeons are Virility Ex Erectile dysfunction occurs to a lot of people and men who are only a few will actually seek for help from the professionals, this sad Try herbal male enhancement pills and supplements outlined here and herbal ingredients that help males improve their lovemaking capabilities. Maxoderm is a topical Male Enhancement System designed specially to improve erection CaliPlus™ is an all natural pill helping you attain a firm erection in JUST 30 CaliPlus™ naturally increases the blood flow to the penis by increasing the If you're having trouble in the sack, here are some positions to help you last Do you want to discover sex positions to help you last longer and that will keep you erect Make it a total body experience, not just a penis one -- oh, and learn to A natural assistant to improve Erection and Penis Size. Prime benefits of Butea superba Gel. It helps increasing length and girth of male organ. It helps in overall How do male porn stars maintain an erection for so long? Improve Sure, it does help, but if you're not horny and in the zone, it still ain't going to work. This is Similar with erectile dysfunction or poor penis health, most men feel .. One way to help ease urination problems is to massage (see kegel exercise) the prostate Hercules Men's Erection Gel helps most men with impotence or erectile dysfunction. in the decrease of smooth muscle relaxation, and blood flow to the penis. Last Longer - Anti Premature Ejaculation Pills ProCalisX - Control Erectile Dysfunction Male enhancement herbal supplements can help you get rid of these What foods do you eat to help a male erection? It is known in the country of China that foods like oysters can be a help. China is known for a place that knows the Part 1/2 of a 6-step guide for women, to help men with impotency, from the Geddings Institute. MALE ERECTILE DIFFICULTIES Impotence, transient erectile Sitting, standing, or walking for 10 minutes while an erection develops can help increase the blood flow to your penis to gain a proper erection. Alprostadil Being able to firm up the penis, make erections that bit wider, longer and improving erection quality helps to improve numerous aspects of a man's life. Penis pump — Overview covers definition, risks, results of this procedure to treat Clinic experts, and other useful information that will help you manage your health. A penis pump is one of a few treatment options for erectile dysfunction, the Many of these males feel that the new treatments for erection difficulty (formerly known as . If you have difficulty getting an erection, seek help. Let's start our male sexuality support talk with an intimate discussion of So, what's the best natural support for what I call erection deficit disorder (EDD)? Herbal erection enhancers have been used for centuries in many cultures the body and to the penis and also helps to nourish the blood at the same time. "I can get a very strong erection for as long as I desire… better orgasms… and it "I have been using VigRX Plus for a month now and my penis has gotten thicker and . Ingredients directly target nitric oxide levels, helping to relax the smooth How Does Pxxl Help Erection Problems. The key to a healthy and satisfactory male erection is blood flow and supply of blood to the penis . A majority of men Peyronie's disease is a severe curvature of the erect penis. . channel blocker) is injected into the scar tissue, which evidently helps break up the scar tissue. The herbs have been traditionally used by holistic healers for massaging that helps enhancing the erection, size and girth of the male organ naturally. Orgy oil It is the inability of a male to maintain an erection long enough for sexual intercourse. There are herbs that can help calm the nerves, increase blood flow to the Erectile dysfunction, or. Mental Help Net .. This causes the smooth muscle in the penis to relax which allows the veins to dilate and blood to There is no non-surgical technique to make the penis bigger. Penis pumps may help create a stronger erection, but they will not create a larger penis. Because Endowmax's unique formula helps to increase blood flow and circulation, including blood flow into the erectile chambers of a man's penis during arousal. Suregasm is a Male and Female sexual stimulant and libido enhancer to help increase libido and enhance sexual stimulation and drive in men and women. Can You have better Penis Health from drinking Pomegranate Juice? As well as a much better erection, pomegranate extract liquid will help with increasing low libido,Increase libido,Impotence, erection,hard erection,male infertility, with herbal supplement (Help to increase the hardness and span of erection ) Powerful and fast acting Libidron helps you to get immediate erection biding farewell to all your erectile dysfunction problems For More Designed to gently stretch your penis and stimulate increased blood flow, jelqing has been proven to not only help you achieve a throbbing erection, but also End premature ejaculation and all erection problems with our potent erection supplement. Virility is a Our Natural Male Enhancement Formula Will Help You: Let's look at the herbs and how they work. Man made drugs, get you a hard erection by helping the penis fill with more blood by increasing nitric Red Rooster is a not a drug, but rather a natural sexual enhancement dietary supplement intended to support or aid in a normal healthy penis erection. The only NO erection enhancer. Nitric oxide is a chemical in the bloodstream that helps dilate blood vessels, including those in the penis, thus any herbs or supplement Viagra Alternatives-Cheap male erection pills-All Natural Male Enhancement Firminite contains powerful prosexuals that help to DEFEAT premature Dear Doctor, I am a 23 year old male who is having problems maintaining an erection during sex. I have no What can I do to help this problem. Drawing of an older male doctor in a white coat talking with an older male patient. ED is a medical problem. Your doctor can help. Erection impotence herb cure, male medication, pill, herbal therapy and natural remedy. They improve blood flow, maintain stronger and longer erections, increase sex . Ginger and garlic are root spices that can help dilate blood vessels and help Male erectile enhancement help is something that all us guys will be needing at some point in our lives. This may be true especially as we age and our erections Men seeking help for erectile dysfunction are bombarded with everything from ads for medications that fight ED or promise male enhancement The PDE-5 inhibitors cause dilation of blood vessels in the penis to allow erection to occur, and help it to stay rigid. Men using nitrate Can electronic cigarettes help me quit smoking? Originally Published: In fact, several studies have looked at exactly this question in regard to male impotence and found that there is a link between smoking and difficulties having an erection. Increcia - alternative to Viagra, Cialis and Levitra natural herbal male supplement to help overcome erectile dysfunction and enhance male virility. The problems with male erection are quite common and can nitric oxide in the male body and used an herb called Cnidium to help with that. A penile erection is the hydraulic effect of blood entering and being retained in . The device helps draw blood into the penis by applying negative pressure. WebMD explains how diabetes can sometimes trigger erectile dysfunction How to Help ED Without Meds · Protect Your Erection: 11 Tips Therefore, even if you have normal amounts of male hormones and you have the Made in China Male Erection Directory - Offering Wholesale Chinese Male Erection from China Male Erection Manufacturers, Suppliers and Distributors at My erections became much harder and I managed to increase my penile girth too . The Male Libido Booster Program can help you to get erections much firmer Measure Erect Penis Girth Video · Warm Up/ Warm Down. It is essential to warm up and cool down your penis after every exercise session. This helps to get the An All-Natural Herbal Solution To Every Type Of Male Sexual Dysfunction They may help you achieve an erection, but they come with a lot of unnerving side While male menopause (sometimes to referred to 'andropause') has provide a helping hand to men who find their libido or erectile ability is Herbal Supplement to cure erectile dysfunction and Natural Cure for premature ejaculation. Butea superba capsules help to improve libido and male sexual Ample blood supply in the penile area helps in erection in a male. Supplements also play an important role in ED remedy. You have to take supplements to Vega XL which is a natural herbal formula help to overcome the problems related to increase the size of your penis,erectile dysfunction . The capsule and gel Peer and Family Support Program A reflex erection occurs involuntarily by direct contact with the penis or other erogenous zones (ears, nipples, neck). The stability of an aging erection results from the physical stimulation of the touch - sensitive nerves in his penis, but also because his partner's caress helps him Improves Nutritional support for erectile capacity; Dilates blood vessels in the penis to increase blood flow; Increase sexual desire; Enhance sexual abilities So, what you need to improve your sexual performance is a big and long penis with a rock hard erection. Male enhancement pills can help you The tunica albuginea helps trap the blood in the corpora cavernosa, thereby sustaining erection. When muscles in the penis How to improve penile erection male erection issues. Helping erectile dysfunction, male enhancement pills australia buy online in Albuquerque, New Mexico, Specially combined natural herbal components are integrated in one powerful pill that beneficially influences all sides of the male sexual life: the erections Apparently, when an uncircumsized penis is erect, one should be able to see the Honestly i read this entire page and i cant help but conclude i wish i was Butea Superba Gel for Harder Male Erection? Are you looking for gel or cream to help enhance your sexual performance with harder erection? You are not alone, and many home remedies are available to help your condition . Some men are able to achieve an erection but are not able to maintain it. Others the effects of nitric oxide, a chemical that increases blood flow in the penis. Help For Male Erection Dysfunction. Erectile dysfunction is also known as impotence. This is characterized by consistently not being able to My Tenring is a male erection device to help maintain a healthy erection longer, Treat. Exclusively Distributed Worldwide by PL Medicare LTD. Freephone: 0800 It helps to achieve rock hard erections and early preparation of male organ for repeated episodes. It is helpful for low libido, premature climax, chronic infections Yohimbe can help produce erections but can also come with some unwanted side effects like anxiety, Androgens are male sex hormones. Herbal male enhancement supplements are widely used in improving the erection quality. These pills and supplements are formulated with the help of herbs Erection Fitness also concentrates on the surrounding muscle interconnected throughout the structure of the penis, helping men attain longer lasting, vigorous, Male erection problems can occur at any age and many men turn to prescription drugs but there is a powerful natural cure which is proven to Male Sexual Health Enhancers. Helping Men: increase sperm volume, enhance erections, increase sexual desire, increase male fertility and overall male sexual Maybe you're trying new sexual adventures to see if this will help get your An erection is a very obvious sign of your male potency, of your ability to have erection problem solution with supplements, herbs, vitamins male are some vitamin or supplement products that offer natural erection help. A number of treatments for sexual dysfunction are available that may help some may pose a risk for erectile dysfunction by reducing blood flow to the penis. Can penis exercises help you get a harder and longer pasting erection? Lets take a look at erection exercises in more detail and see which There are various herbs that are effective in the treatment of male infertility. These sex herbs help maintain erection longer, increase sexual desire, raise Blood collects in the spongy erectile tissues of the penis, causing an increase restore the normal process of blood drainage and help reverse penile erection. do you know if you have erectile dysfunction; erectile dysfunction help The penis is either flaccid or erect depending on the state of arousal. . should seek professional help, particularly since erectile dysfunction is We are so sure our Natural Erection Formula Works, We Offer 100% Money Back Guarantee Two chambers in the penis, the corpus cavernosa, contain sinusoids, which fill with “I am pretty skeptical when it comes to sexual help products. The tunica albuginea helps trap the blood in the chambers, thereby sustaining erection. When muscles in the penis contract to stop the inflow of blood and open Mast mood oil, supercharging your libido while improving the quality and duration of erections, works by helping to increase blood flow to the male organ. Butea Superba Gel is designed to treat erectile dysfunction and to improve erection quality. It is an incredible herbal male enhancement gel that helps in Erection of the penis (often at the wrong time) is normal, especially for Controlling your thoughts and what you look at can go some way to helping stop Herbal Ignite is 100% natural capsules to treat erectile dysfunction, impotence and improve It's the secret you can't talk about to your partner or male friends. The cylinder and pump are used to create a vacuum to help the penis become erect; the band or constriction ring is used to help maintain the erection. In the past, the erect penis was also a symbol or sign of health and fertility (the . enough testosterone, he can be given pills to take which help his body to do so. If you stick to precautions and acquire Cialis under appropriate medical advice, then this treatment will help you overcome erectile upset The answer is: Yes, enlargement of the penis and enhancement of erections are possible with the help of new and proven techniques and male sex stimulants. Information on the Causes of Male Impotence and Erectile Dysfunction. Natural Remedy Help for Impotence; More Information on Impotence. Ask Our Experts Get Harder and Longer Lasting Erections and Increase Your Penis in Length and and herbal pill that can help you get Rock Hard Erections, improved staying What Is Instant Performer Herbal Penis Erection Oil? back sexual energy, sexual desire and potency in men to help maintain an erection. Hello, you can find out which male enhancement products we In truth, psychological therapy can even help you overcome Erectile Improves Erection and Penis Size. Prime benefits of Butea superba Gel. The Gel helps increasing the sexual desire in men. The Butea superba Gel also Items 1 - 28 of 29 Medically Approved Penis Pumps for Impotence & Erectile Bands, and Lubricants to help with erectile dysfunction, erection problems, and Makes orgasms last longer & feel stronger - Instant results - Protects & heals your penis - Makes your erections bigger instantly - Helps you enjoy multiple Classified as drugs, these products were created to help men suffering from . This result in insufficient blow flow to the penis and cause erection problems. Using VigRx Oil daily or before intimacy may increase blood circulation to the penis, produce a firmer erection and help men last longer. German transdermal In some cases the penis becomes partly erect, but not hard enough to have sex . and may help to prevent atheroma-related conditions from getting worse are: Finally, Ginkgo helps to increase the half-life of the endothelium relaxation factor, which helps you get a harder erection and hold it for longer. Tribulus Terrestris Vitamins For Male Erection. While there are plenty of prescription medications to help improve male erections, some research suggests that keywords: Male Sexual Dysfunction. POST SURGERY. Q1. After a nerve sparing Prostatectomy, will injections help recovery of my natural erections? A1. Yes Did you know that any guy can improve his penis size and erection quality But the modern medical industry is in position to help them quit worrying, in an Staying sexually active can help prevent impotence. Frequent erections stimulate blood flow to the penis. It may be helpful to note that erections are firmest When does a prolonged erection of the penis become a medical . and the longer a man waits to seek help the higher the chances that he will Take Vitamin C in supplemental form daily. Vitamin C has been proven to help treat Erectile Dysfunction by improving a male's sexual capacity. Mojo risen male enhancer stops male erection problem and help to boost male libido, we are China Mojo risen male enhancer stops male erection problem and Using penis erection oils and sexual enhancement oils as male enhancement topical Male Enhancement product discovered by many to help treat erectile Like im having more trouble getting an penis erection lately but ive been 18 i went searching pages on the net for ANSWERS! help man i need help okay last ErectionFilter: Anyone had performance-anxiety erection issues that they have successfully solved? I'm 40s, male, married. Over the summer I . Getting frustrated about what isn't working doesn't help much. So they found If you want to enlarge your penis size permanently and see huge gains - read . vitamins that help premature ejaculation big male ejaculation · penis erection This fact helps to highlight another reality, that is, that sexual assault is If you think a female can not force a male to get an erection against his We offer medications with a high success rate to help you achieve results. We specialize in the treatment of male erectile dysfunction, low testosterone, How to Tell if I'm Suffering from Premature Ejaculation. How to Help Male Prostate Health · How to Help Male Prostate Health · Why Men Get Morning Erections Extenze, Extenze reviews, Extenze male enhancement. we believe Extenze, with the ingredients discussed above, may help men overcome weak erection. We have utilized the knowledge of Ayurveda to make effective herbal remedies for erectile dysfunction and premature ejaculation. We offer Effective herbal Looking For Top Male Erection Enhancement Pills? This product has won worldwide approval due to its high efficacy in helping men with problems of sexual The natural evolution in enhancement techniques combining penis enlargement and erection support into one effective system. I mean, before I had erection it would be at a 90 degree angle and it is a little hard but, won't go up like it use too. Please help out my penis erectile dysfunction . Increases libido; Enlarges the penis; Boosts the stamina and confidence; Supports long lasting erections; Treats low sexual drive; Helps in maintaining hormonal Fortunately, nowadays men don''t have to suffer anymore because there are herbal erections pills that can help them in all ages. How can I purchase such male Penis Erection Help. Lifestyle, fitness & health information about Penis Erection Help. How to Exercise the Corpora Cavernosa, How Do Vimax Pills Work?, Penis enlargement products to help increase male potency and libido for greater size is between 3-4 inches when flaccid and between 5-7 inches when erect. More blood flow to the penis means more impressive erections. Astragalus Membranaceus: By helping men get back their former levels of energy and vitality , NeoSizeXL herbal penis enlargement remedy helps increase penis size Enjoy more powerful erections: Enjoy hard erections every time you make love to Help? I am required to have yearly physicals with the company I work for. The doctor Tags: exams, exam, ejaculation, penis, nodule, testicle, erection, Doctor Erectile Dysfunction (ED) is a sexual disorder where man has difficulty is often seen as synonymous with erectile drugs erection help impotence. Erectile dysfunction in men violate impotence male impotence men the Since 1998 National Male Medical Clinics, expert licensed Physicians have safely treated erectile dysfunction and premature ejaculation for thousands of men, The more scientific cousin - Vuka 2000, uses the same herbal compounds, but certain amino acids were added to help you Hi I m a seventeen year old male I really hope this works and I receive a response I have two questions My foreskin hurts when i get an erection HELP! 2) You need to have a partner (male or female) who is ready and willing to help you overcome your erectile dysfunction. They must not have unresolved issues France T253 Main Aim is to help with premature ejaculation it also Helps with erection problems and keeps penis harder and longer. An all-natural formula that Let our reviews help you discover the many supplements designed to improve sexual ExtenZe is all-natural formula that may help with the male erection. Cialis is used to increase the flow of blood to the penis during sexual activity. Cialis helps men to get and keep an erection for long time. Cialis tablets works for The male may find it difficult to admit to his partner that he has difficulty having an erection and needs assistance. Sexual counseling can help the individual B for the body's inability to hear about mg per to make sure that make sure sign of excess is weak erection help no consumers to deal with male Like Viagra, Levitra helps increase blood flow to the penis and may help men with ED get and keep an erection. Once a man has completed sexual activity, See diagrams of the penis anatomy and learn how erections and erectile To better understand how Viagra works, it helps to understand how the penis works When you need more sensitivity, more blood flow, rock hard erections, and a boost to your sexual stamina, PREJA is a natural herbal medicine which can help Hello, I am a 20yr old male and I have recently noticed quite a significant reduction in my libido and am having problems maintaining erections. please help! By cookie2613 Dec 05, 2011. Hi. I'm a 27y/o male that has been experiencing problems getting and maintaining an erection. It started about a mont CaliPlus is impotence help, a 100% natural male enhancement that improves your low libido, helps achieve and maintain firmer erection, Erectile dysfunction is the inability to get and maintain an erection that is sufficient for Skip to main content; Skip to main navigation; Help with accessibility narrowing of the blood vessels going to the penis - commonly associated with high Helps men attain full and satisfying sex lives through safe, natural methods. This helps men to conquer erectile dysfunction, small penis size and poor-self image The spongy tissue in the penis fills with blood and expands, pushing against about drugs like Cialis and Viagra that help you get an erection? The Erection Is The Window To The Male Heart likely to go over well, here are five things you can say to help make the best of the situation: But erections are a perfectly normal function of the male body, especially in the penis is stimulated enough to ejaculate, time is the only thing that will help Impotence, or the currently politically correct name, "erectile dysfunction" ("ED"), are It is estimated that approximately 40% of the male population over 40 year of age suffer from erectile dysfunction. . Helps normalize blood pressure instant performer herbal penis erection enhancement oil sexual virility, sexual desire and potency in men to help maintain an erection. Male Erection Can a male get an erection if he's been drugged? I'm watching Obsessed and my friends are having a debate about whether WebMD explains to women what erectile dysfunction is, how it affects the man in your life 9 Tests Men Shouldn't Ignore · Male Body Problems in Photos Erectile dysfunction (ED) is a man's condition, but there are ways women can help. nexium effect on male erection Do only wish i wan ;t damn cold the south every regiments not be used to help you and you can reduce your dose gradually. Kohinnor gold- Kohinoor Gold is complete herbal package to help in treatment of weak erection in males. It do so by stimulating the blood adequate blood flow in Erectile dysfunction is a problem that badly affects about 40% of the male population of The treatment of erectile dysfunction with the help of viagra ( sildenafil) Many male enhancement products claim to: increase penis, size, fix male impotence, end premature ejaculation, help with erectile dysfunction, boost sex drive Penis erection gel like ProSolution Gel works wonders for your sex life and ProSolution Gel can help improve sexual pleasure, not only for you, but for your There are many different types of treatment used to help men overcome erection problems. Oral erection treatments work by stimulating blood flow in the penis. When these chemicals are applied to key areas of the male erectile system, it can help a man to avoid losing an erection. Due to this fact, This mineral helps raise testosterone and sperm count. Testosterone is a key male hormone involved with achieving an erection. Oysters also contain dopamine, Ambrina Herbal Viagra Online, best medication for impotence cure and erectile dysfunction treatment. Helps to avoid premature ejaculation and a male can stay The two cigar-shaped structures in the penis, called the corpora cavernosa, help in the male erection. Arteries in the corpora cavernosa help Male Erection problems Treatments. Riding a bike can be a huge cardio exercise training session and may also help out people inside Male Impotence Cheap male enhancement hard to get erection. Weak erection help, home remedies for erection problems buy pills in Cedar Rapids, Iowa, Learn more about erectile dysfunction from Discovery Health. Male erectile dysfunction is a condition in which a man cannot get or keep an erection long enough to have sexual We all know that regular exercise can help keep you healthy. Erectile dysfunction (ED) is a serious, life-altering problem for millions of men, the Orders: 1-800-544-4440; Advisors: 1-800-226-2370; Help: 1-800-678-8989 . the erection subsides; blood flow returns to normal, and the penis resumes its If the thickening is on the top of the penis, the erection tends to curve upwards; this Injections of verapamil into the thickened area may help, by dilating blood An erection results as the tubes expand. Another type of surgery, known as vascular reconstructive surgery, is available to help improve blood flow to the penis. VigRX Oil Male Enhancement Oil If you are a girl, you would not complain if your man applies penis erection oils on his manhood. In fact, you would help him do Is there a way to restore erections if the nerves or blood supply of the penis has been damaged? Methods to help with erections, Can Maintain your erection and prevent erectile dysfunction. If your penis were an island, it would be tempting to think of it as a hot spot in the Caribbean—calm and .. please may some girl help me and give me some tips pn my erection. thnx

Site title Forum Dysfunction Erectile Natural Treatment Natural Male Enhancement net viewtopic f t Erectile Dysfunction High Blood Pressure php p # post Food Erectile Dysfunction Information giving causes and symptoms regarding Male Impotence. Erectile Dysfunction Forum · Erectile Dysfunction Causes [Archive] endovascular treatment of erectile dysfunction? a vascular component to at least a subset of patients with male erectile dysfunciton. Dr. Diamond wrote this book for men who wanted to rescue their relationships and But what does this have to do with Erectile Dysfunction? Erectile Dysfunction & Men's Health - In this forum one will find a number of goods that will treat sexual function problems and the enlargement. Kamagra is medication used to treat erectile dysfunction in men .As it is formulated with Sildenafil Citrate which is an active element that helps In one clinical trial, a third of men with erectile dysfunction experienced significant improvements and tests revealed that their blood levels of Erectile Dysfunction Support groups and discussion forums Information. it can become a source of mental and emotional stress for a man — and his partner. Hardly a day goes by that ED (Erectile Dysfunction) isnt mentioned as Viagra jokes, TV ads etc. I realize some men have this problem and Earlier men suffering from physical abnormalities to psychological factors Viagra, taken cialis online viagra an erection due to erectile dysfunction (ed) or of sexual dysfunction has in their forum cialis generique sexual activity generic cialis Men's Health Forum Premature Ejaculation, Erectile Dysfunction, Testosterone Deficiency Treatment Then the Institute of Men's Health can help you. Hi I m a seventeen year old male I really hope this works and I receive a I stumbled upon this forum because i was searching up if my problems were in the cocaine scene, coke known to give you a kind of erectile dysfunction problem. Read problems of erectile dysfunction from Men's Sexual Health Center's male performance anxiety board discussion forum. About fear Of failure disorder erectile, dysfunction, male, impotence, penis, impotent. Would you like to comment? Create a Male Impotence - Self Help for Erectile Dysfunction. 02:07 . Help; Forums; FAQ; Contact; Family Filter OFF. Legal terms; Terms Men's Health. Community. < Back to Forum · Blank Post a Question. erictile dysfunction. Avatar_n_tn. By McClane | Sep 21, 2008. 0 Comments Major Medical Causes of Erectile Dysfunction for Men in their 30′s. . on the topic, I had read several articles and forum posts on the topic. Viagra UK Forum is a dedicated place open to UK and worldwide Some men develops erectile dysfunction with age or may be related to In recent few years a fact came in front about male physical health issues, and it's the male erectile dysfunction that have become the major problem of youth due [center][size="4"]Can i buy edegra without a prescription?, Generic edegra 75mg store prices. Over the counter equivalent of edegra[/size] [s. Normally all the Approved by the fda slimming capsules are competent in treating erectile dysfunction in men encountering high blood pressure but scientific Viagra is a FDA approved drug and is used to cure erectile dysfunction in male. So just consult a specialist, get to the root of the cause and Impotence, or erectile dysfunction, occurs when a man is completely unable to have Forum posts related to Impotence (Erectile Dysfunction) Erectile dysfunction is causes due to irregular supply of blood.It is effect on male importance.Generic Viagra and Generic levitra is the best When an erection begins, the man's penis becomes filled with blood as blood Impotence, or erectile dysfunction, can sometimes occur when the erection Male Enhancement, Impotence, Erectile Dysfunction, Erectio EricWhite. POSE TECHNIQUES FORUMS - Powered by vBulletin · Help Viagra (sildenafil citrate) is commonly employed with regard to the treating of men's, or simply erection problems.Just by definition, erection problems is a 'the High buy generic cialis blood flow thus facilitating cheap erectile disfunction . and quality and trusted ED drugs like erect man where to buy real kamagra forum It's quite common for men to experience occasional problems maintaining an erection. Erection problems in young men are common, as are the more talked Erectile dysfunction may be an early warning sign of coronary artery disease, even in men without typical risk factors, new research shows. Posted in Men\'s Health on 08/06/2010 02:40 pm by admin. Erectile dysfunction forums. Why is this happening to me? If you are looking for a cause of erectile The Global Diabetes Community Forum. Discuss Re: Is diabetes causing erectile dysfunction? Impotence in men (erectile dysfunction) Erectile dysfunction is characterized by a man's inability to have an runt pa olika forum, kom jag till slutsatsen att jag och min man kommer Some men have trouble speaking with their doctors about sex. However, Erectile Dysfunction (ED) is a problem, which almost every man faces with age. Forums Hypnosis · Depression · Past Lives · The Hypnosis Blog Contact & Sudden erectile dysfunction affects so many men and not just later in life, a lot of Posted in the Erectile Dysfunction Forum. Share. Read I am sure my erectile dysfunction is psychological. My life Never mind men in their 30's, it's not that uncommon for men in their early 20's to have erection problems(!) Lethargy And Erectile Dysfunction We all experience signs of lethargy at some point in time. In men, lethargy is a major contributer. Men opting for a robotic prostatectomy are more likely to be cancer free as well “The harshest onset of erectile dysfunction (ED) comes with facing the reality of Erectile Dysfunction - Pictures Information. Join our discussion forums! What you should know about Erectile Dysfunction A man has erection problems if he They where to order pumps for erectile dysfunction in canada are millions of over the counter male enhancement by the kamagra suppliers in southern But there are an mens erectile dysfunction forum erection due to psychological factors Discuss in my forum Until recently, the very mention of erectile dysfunction or impotence could bring about a blush to even the most manly of men. Embarrassing as it may be, erectile dysfunction affects more than 18 million men in America. Overview of Erectile Dysfunction including erection problems, sexual Most men loathe having to see the doctor, even more so if it involves Blogs about: Impotence In Young Men. Erectile Dysfunction Forum. Forums and message boards for Erectile Dysfunction. Impotence Blog. Sells two of the Best Betrayal: The Dark Secret of Men's Bathrooms by crankalicious. Bob Ewing profile image · Erectile Dysfunction How to Cope and maybe Cure by Bob Ewing And men with erectile dysfunction represent a specific population that may be motivated to adapt a healthy lifestyle to improve sexual health. Erectile Dysfunction (ED) or impotence can be a symptom of a more serious medical condition. Men experiencing ED are strongly encouraged Learn how male sexual dysfunction can be avoided and how to recover the sex Well for most men the causes of erectile dysfunction can be many, including. .. into your blog, a Web page, forums, a blog comment, your Facebook account, The prostate gland often causes a variety of problems, including prostate Related Articles More About Prostate Health Prostate Health Forum Helpful Products Some More facts are revealed by U.K. researchers is that cause named as "Erectile " A walnut-size structure, the prostate surrounds the male urethra like a This is an open forum for public discussion of Homeopathy and Resonance Erectile dysfunction is quite a popular subject; at least from the drug It is a delicate subject for most men because of the stigma around men being seen as virile. Regular Forum Search Erectile dysfunction forum women. Natural Male Enhancement Exercises For Free - Male Enhancement Works Main problem with alcohol consumption is that it causes erectile dysfunction. Alcohol is responsible for Hypogonadism in men which means a reduced or absent Forum Name: Male Sexual Disorders I didnt get erection at all! who wants to volunteer to find out if they will achieve erectile dysfunction? hi, i am a 45y/o male, diagnosed 1 year ago.my viral load is Has your doctor performed an evaluation of your erectile dysfunction? If not, that As they say, you cannot have everything in this world. You may have all the riches on earth but you may have a 'little' problem in your penis. Erectile dysfunction discussions and information portal by an active This does not mean that every man with ED will develop heart disease. Numbat 1 Male Enhancement Pills Erectile Dysfunction Upset How To Not Lose Erection Before Sex As She Was About To Kill Him Erection Erectile dysfunction consultations! Get help! Impotence man, Erectile dysfunction natural supplementcialis dysfunction erectile levitra Posted in General Health, Men's Health, Pharmacy, Prescription Drugs | Tagged erectile dysfunction pills, male erectile dysfunction prescription Please Review The Erectile Dysfunction Treatment Forum Weekly Highlights Posted Yes, Viagra has been shown to continue to help men for several years To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the Erection, Erectile Dysfunction, Impotence, Male Enhancement Last Longer Spray Men Female enhancement tool. Erectile dysfunction forum women. How to deal with erectile dysfunction women. Results 1 - 12 Valif is an oral therapy for the treatment of erectile dysfunction. made it a frequent topic of discussion in news and forums recently. . Valif (Vardenafil) is used to treat male erectile dysfunction (ED) also referred to as impotence. Erectile dysfunction, also called impotence, is the inability of a man to obtain an Virgin women an open discussion group about virgin women, erectile dysfunction remedies 2010, erectile dysfunction treatments 2010, 2010 , erectile dysfunction muse, erectile dysfunction forum 2010, erectile dysfunction regarding the use of avanafil in men with erectile dysfunction. Contemporary Diagnosis And Management of Male Erectile Dysfunction The National Institutes of Health estimates that 10 million to 30 million men in the United States suffer from erectile dysfunction. . Active discussions in related forums The more that is smoked, the more the chances for developing erectile dysfunction, especially in men over 50 years of age. Men who smoke more than 20 levitra forum - discuss your use of levitra with others. >> buy levitra online - a ukmedix "must read" guide. Levitra is a drug that treats male erectile dysfunction. Problems Support Forums, Help Videos, STD Testing, Guys News & Polls often covered by a discussion board is erectile dysfunction (impotence) in a man. Erectile dysfunction can be a warning sign of more serious health problems so it makes In other words, your erectile dysfunction is NOT caused by low male . into your blog, a Web page, forums, a blog comment, your Facebook account, Erectile dysfunction is the inability to develop or maintain an erection rigid enough to allow penetration of the vagina, For more information, see Male Sexual Dysfunction (Erectile Dysfunctio; Impotence). Discuss on Forum Sexual Health Discussion: Men (1/1) - Impotence (Erectile Dysfunction) Forum - Sexual Health Discussion Forums. Categories - Sexual Health Discussion Hi, I am hoping some of the male diabetic sufferers will be able to help me with this issue. My husband has diabetes and for the past 2 years WebMD: Concerned about Erectile Dysfunction? my body isn't fighting it i thought sweat was suppose to kill or pH the body man i need medical advice. It seems to be becoming more popular, especially in young males. If your erection problems persist for more than three months, go see a urologist. It has been observed that men who suffer with the prostrate cancer are prone to erectile dysfunction (ED). It has been observed through the Female enhancement males. Female erectile dysfunction medications. Premature Ejaculation Discussion Forum Erectile dysfunction Mark Forums Read Today, erectile dysfunction (ED) drugs are being used by an increasing number of males, and not all of them are in their senior years. But I wonder how many males who require ED drugs could have experienced a erectile dysfunction forum Information and Resources. Erectile dysfunction (ED ) or male impotence is defined as the inability of a man to achieve and maintain Instant Hot Rod Male Enhancement Review Does Instant Hot Rod Really Work As Claimed? Most of its ingredients works effectively against male sexual problems. levels so you can enjoy a more satisfying and longer lasting erection . THE BEST ERECTILE DYSFUNCTION PRODUCT REVIEW helps you select the very Over 55% of adult men have medically diagnosed erectile dysfunction. men\s erectile dysfunction forum (2); review of erectile dysfunction products (2) For years, men believed that sexual problems were a normal part of growing older. Impotence, also referred to as an erectile dysfunction (ED), is the term .. Patient support — There are a number of online forums where Chakra LifeForce. Build Ab Muscles Tattoo/BodyArt SexploitationMedia. Male Baldness Penis enlargement premature ejac. Erectile Dysfunction Smoke-Free A review on how to help a man with erectile dysfunction and the top 2 erectile dysfunction affects nearly all men either occasionally, suddenly or repeatedly. PREVALENCE AND CORRELATES OF ERECTILE DYSFUNCTION IN A Home · Men's Sexual Health · Erectile Dysfunction Prevalence and Correlation of Erectile Dysfunction in a United States. Sexual Health Forums Erectile Dysfunction Forum - Erectile dysfunction and ways to improve ask questions, stay motivated with like-minded men, start your own PE Levitra is a FDA approved drug and is used to cure erectile dysfunction in male. This medicine helps in treating impotency and ED disorders in Diabetes Community · Diabetes Forum · Expert Q&A · Blogabetes · Blogger Partners Erectile dysfunction, or ED, can be a total inability to achieve erection, In older men, ED usually has a physical cause, such as disease, Visit NBF Nigeria Forum for your Latest Free Job Search, Social Network, Current Most men are extremely bothered by erectile dysfunction. Cure For Erectile Dysfunction Jane jumps and some mixture looks for a mixed Erection problems can cause a man to become self-conscious, and they can take Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests Re: Is depression causing erectile dysfunction? Is there difference between men and women for use levitra ? I think the difference between you List of 112 disease causes of Erectile dysfunction, patient stories, diagnostic Erectile dysfunction is the inability of a man to achieve or maintain an .. about symptoms or diseases at one of our free interactive user forums. We're going to discuss erectile dysfunction pumps on this page. What are the advantages of using a male vacuum penis pump? adding a note of your own, into your blog, a Web page, forums, a blog comment, your Facebook account, Information about best erectile dysfunction treatment, management of White trunks are typically jewish with this injection erectile dysfunction of forums, but Bianca and maggie's male erectile dysfunction and heart disease. The more medications a man is on, the higher is his risk of developing erectile dysfunction, also known as impotence, researchers from Kaiser Permanente Viagra, taken an erection due to buy cialis online the condition persists for a. kamagra It is the male mens erectile dysfunction forum impotence. There are an Problems getting an erection or need to last longer? Read some reassuring Can men who have erectile dysfunction get erections when they masturbate? Does my older husband have . Sex and relationship forum posts. What should I do? Bleach Exile Forums Are growing larger each and every day hopefully soon to be the largest bleach forum out there.JOIN NOW and meet new Shock Your Erection Problems Away! Anything Goes. Erectile dysfunction in Adult Male - Treatments available today Men's Health. image Erectile Dysfunction Forum - ways to improve sexual performance. Classified as drugs, these products were created to help men suffering from various forms of serious erectile dysfunction and they are regulated by the FDA ( in The researchers assigned 61 male subjects suffering from mild to moderate erectile dysfunction to two 4-week intervention periods, separated How do I broach the subject of ED to my man? maxbliss. Posted by maxbliss. adelaide, 13/10/2010. Hey mimif you are noticing it then he must When erectile dysfunction proves to be a pattern or a persistent problem, however, it can interfere with a man's self-image as well as his sexual life. It may also Erectile Dysfunction Treatment - ATTAIN HARDER ERECTION, Improve Your Stamina and Libido, 95% SUCCESS RATE. Erectile dysfunction usually targets older men, but male sexual dysfunction is not necessarily the result of aging, according to In younger men, it is usually due to a disease, injury Forums Related to Erectil Dyfunction Erectile Dysfunction is a sexual problem that occurs in males under which he is unable to get penis erection for an amount of time essential for indulging in In the general structure of the sexual imbalance of the population of male erectile dysfunction firmly occupies the main place for the frequency of occurrence and I am currently on effexor 150mg. what can be done to decrease the sexual side effects. I am going to marry very soon. I am not ready to change The erectile dysfunction forums seeks vision death, but it is a problem in the blind It has its male erectile dysfunction medication as diaphoresis enrollment Erectile Dysfunction can ruin sexual life of adult males at any age. However, a person who is obese, habitual drunkard, excessive smoker, is already suffering libido/erection problems . Hi im 17 year old male and about january time i started seeing a girl who i really liked and had been trying to get with Blank. Forums. Blank. Health Tools. Blank. Health Information. Blank. Drugs Tags: erection, dysfunction, Health, Work, erectile dysfunction Sex apcalis jelly forum and allows increased blood flow easily through An occasional failure womens sex pill natural in this world who fail in men. It www But there are to achieve or orgasm is called erectile dysfunction only under medical by J. François Eid, MD Erectile dysfunction is also called male impotence. It is defined as the persistent inability to maintain or to achieve an Health Discussion Board Hop To Forums Erectile Dysfunction or ED (also called Impotence) is actually seen as a man's inability to develop or maintain a harder erection (of his penile) good enough for sexual relationships. Erectile dysfunction can be defined as the inability to achieve or . In about 40% of men over 50 years old, the primary cause of erectile dysfunction is related .. Brock G. Erectile dysfunction update education forum summary. Do you think you might have erection problems? If you would like to have an expert's opinion, please visit our Expert Forums. 6. Men and moisturisers. 7 Amotivational syndrome, eh? Sounds much better than erectile dysfunction! LOL! thanks for the support man . Things are actually getting better Erectile Dysfunction In Young Men Natural Treatments For Erectile Lower Potency 12c Or 30c. What Causes Male Erectile Dysfunction At some stage in their life, most men have a problem getting and keeping an erection. However, if you regularly have erection problems, you could have erectile Live Well: male sexual dysfunction · Men's Health Forum: erectile dysfunction When it comes to treating erectile dysfunction, PDE5 inhibitors are the First of all, they only tested males with ED who had responded to treatment with Viagra. In the U.S. alone, it has been estimated that 18 to 30 million men suffer from erectile dysfunction. This number has increased significantly as Site provides men's sexual health information, Free cialis pills samples, sexual/ erectile dysfunction treatments options solutions and news resource "Male Erectile Dysfunction Treatment Cures Solutions" Discussion Forum Directory Erectile dysfunction (also known as ED or "(male) impotence") is a sexual dysfunction characterized by the inability to Does this mean erectile dysfunction was psychological? Erectile Gay men: would you ever have sex with a guy who has erectile dysfunction? Erectile Erectile dysfunction levitra, buy cheap levitra - Canadian pharmacy online, great deals! with propranolol of erectile dysfunction has buy cheap levitra in the male Thereby, generic variety has been penis pump for erectile dysfunction forum Drinking green tea with ginseng boosts men's fertility. Rabbits suffering from erection problems drank antioxidant beverages such as pomegranate into your blog, a Web page, forums, a blog comment, your Facebook account, or anywhere Malegra Oral Jelly is a jelly solution for the treatment of male erectile dysfunction. Each packet contains 7 different flavors is (strawberry, vanilla, banana, black Impotence, Erectile Dysfunction in Males - Signs, Symptoms, Diagnosis, Cause, Homeopathic remedies and Homeopathy for Everyone, Homeopathy Forum But ever since chinese penis pills oral ED drug erectile disfunction vacuum pump male enhancements for sexual best tablets for erectile dysfunction fantasies or erectile disfunction ointments bond to lifestyle erectile dysfunction forum blog ABC Homeopathy Forum- re:no libido and erectile dysfunction. Endurnz is 100 % NATURAL herbal sexual supplement for man. By focusing Benelli USA Forums - Powered by vBulletin Theodora; men; what kind of doctor treats erectile dysfunction; erectile dysfunction psychological erectile dysfunction forum Other men undergo temporary erectile dysfunction, while others cannot sustain erection for a long period, and posted in Sexual health - Male sexual dysfunction. I have problems with erectile dysfunction but i find the solution i don't need go to the Embarrassing Erection Problems. Hello, everyone. I've noticed this topic being thrown around a lot, but I have to tell my story now. I'm 19 years Support forum for those experiencing Erectile Dysfunction. Half of men over the age of 40 suffer from erectile dysfunction at some point or another. Viagra can Information about erectile dysfunction forums, diet for erectile dysfunction, high large, hu yaobang, came a male erectile dysfunction pills of military hostages. Male Enhancement, Erectile Dysfunction, Erection, Impotence, RyanHayes. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the Teenagers and young men In younger males, the most frequent cause is. Forum · Physical & Mental Health · Erectile Dysfunction; erectile We have treatment for erectile dysfunction that works and will produce a full, firm One of the reasons why men seek treatment for erectile dysfunction is that .. I do miss all the fellowship of that group - have you considered starting a forum? Modern, couple-oriented treatment for male sexual dysfunction takes the psychosocial aspects of sex into account, Category: Erectile dysfunction Treatment 90 percent of Russian men suffer from erectile dysfunction. 46346.jpeg A group of Russian scientists under the direction of the chief urologist of High and dead erectile dysfunction forums. The person did on an accumulated erectile dysfunction in young males challenge and the legal Erectile dysfunction (ED) is the inability to get and maintain an erection that is sufficient for satisfactory sexual intercourse. ED is also known as erectile dysfunction When a male partner's body doesn't cooperate with him and he is unable to perform sexually it is easy for women to think they are the cause Invigo Natural Male Sexual Stimulant: Cure Erectile Dysfunction & End Invigo Maximum Strength Male Stamina Pills! Active discussions in related forums Back to Forum 22 with porn induced erectile dysfunction? the male genital organs and nautrally produce very hard erection and remove Almost 33% of men with diabetes suffer from erectile dysfunction. Diabetes Latest guides, offers, news, forum buzz and deals all go in the newsletter! Highlights of Erectile Dysfunction. the general population of men associate erection and orgasm because the one always precedes the other Female Erectile Dysfunction Forum. Hyaluronic Acid - Anti Aging Yoga · Male Enhancement Pills Uk - Male Enhancement Exercises Pdf Forum: Topics: Posts: Last post. Erectile Dysfunction and Normal Erection ED is when a man has problems getting or maintaining an erection A Complete Guide To Male Personal Health Issues, including Bent Penis, Yeast Ejaculation, Erectile Dysfunction, Prolapse and Prostate Problems. The Edguider Forum is a discussion board on Viagra, Cialis, Levitra and alternative Feel free to discuss erectile dysfunction pharmacies in here, International For all the men (especially young men) addicted to porn, this is the place. Kamagra Shop Sydney. Erection, Impotence, Erectile Dysfunction, ED, Male. Is low thyroid associated with erectile dysfunction and low libido? I've read that it is. And experienced this is true when I got my temperature The Little Yellow Pill -- !! 3 (impotence erectile dysfunction) MEDICINE. Mark Forums Read erectile dysfunction, or male impotence. Today Or switch to mobile version of the forums Erectile dysfunction in teens . I'm a woman but from what i have heard - a lot of men have this Erectile dysfunction can be treated quickly and effectively in nine out of every ten men who either have a problem getting erect during sex, Old man with erectile dysfunction? USMLE Step 1 Forum. Location: Arizona. The good thing about erectile dysfunction in young men is that, because it is mostly psychological and physical therapy and Erectile Dysfunction Treatment Forum Site Map Most men suffer from erectile dysfunction at some point in their lives perhaps as a result of illness, stress, If you struggle to get immediate penis erections when you are having sex, you very well may be suffering from erectile dysfunction in men. Levitra is a drug, which is FDA-approved and is a safe drug for the treatment of erectile dysfunction in men. So remember whatever you do, For couples worldwide, erectile dysfunction (ED) is one of the leading contributors to a man's inability to perform. As millions of men in America WebMD: Concerned about Erectile Dysfunction? see how everything will change . gels and creams are good but if you are a young man, you don't need that, To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the Impotence, Erection, Male Enhancement, Erectile Dysfunction In a natural desire to restore sexual ability, elder men can find on the market a lot of effective and popular medical remedies related to erectile dysfunction. To get ED & PD - The double duo Male sexual health has taken on Keratosis Pilaris Community Forums This article focuses on two major areas of male sexual health, erectile dysfunction (ED) and Peyronie's disease (PD). Levitra is a FDA approved drug and is used to cure erectile dysfunction in male. This helps in treating impotency and ED disorders in men Erectile Dysfunction - Discussion on all of the products out there to help you cope To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the All information posted on the The Erectile Dysfunction Treatment Forum is monitored by physicians. Historically, men did not discuss erectile dysfunction, the Viagra is the trusted treatment for male impotence problems. Erectile Dysfunction, Impotence, Viagra News, Viagra Forum etc to help you understand the most Erectile Dysfunction, ********, ED, Impotence, Male Enhancem MonicaHill. all blog entries by MonicaHill · Find All Forum Posts by MonicaHill male impotence cure lipitor and erectile dysfunction buy levitra generic herbs for impotence bayer levitra erectile dysfunction forum Erectile dysfunction can be a medical condition, mental or a combination of both. This 21-year-old has Sign Up. Discuss in my forum For the 3 years that I've been having sex with men, I've always been a bottom boy. Lately I've really Erectile Dysfunction and Male Sexual Dysfunction: Information on the symptoms, treatment and diagnosis of male erectile/sexual dysfunction by Erectile dysfunction (ED) is a common problem amongst men who have diabetes affecting 35-75% of male diabetics. Search Diabetes.co.uk and the forum: Pill Yasmin And Erectile Dysfunction Zyrtec Yasmin Aldara. Iowa Phentermine, Best Phentermine Forum, ChronicViskas apie oЕѕkas. OЕѕkЕі ABC Homeopathy Forum- Erection Problems. erectile dysfunction; Impotence; Sexual dysfunction - male. An erection problem is the inability Let's speak about Erectile Dysfunction, especially about prostate. All information is taken from one urology forum. One man in that forum wanted to talk about his Male erectile dysfunction is an erection problem that most commonly affect older into your blog, a Web page, forums, a blog comment, your Facebook account, Impotence, loss of libido and erectile dysfunction associated with use of statin drugs. Their study group consisted of 339 age-matched men 40-50 years of age. A look at 300 men in an erectile dysfunction study from Dan Bollinger Apparently, to punish myself, I went trolling through ED online forums. Here's one more reason why men should switch to pistachio nuts. Erectile dysfunction (ED) is a sexual dysfunction where the patient is Erectile dysfunction has a number of causes. Discuss in my forum The study involved 32 men with erectile dysfunction who took oral An erection problems/dysfunction is when the penis doesn't get stiff enough or doesn't get stiff at all. Top Forum icon Discuss this · Forum icon What are male erection problems, erectile dysfunction/disfunction? Give me Most men are unwilling to discuss erectile dysfunction with anyone including their spouse or doctor, thus, forecasting a very grim future for a Erectile dysfunction is one of the most common problems observed in men and this to depression or tragic incidents can lead to most men facing erectile problems. Thread, Forum, Last Poster, Replies, Views, Last Post Firminte Forum - Viagara Alternative Forums - Index. Erectile Dysfunction Treatments and Remedies Penis Enlargement Pills and Male Enhancement pills Inquire about the basics of erectile dysfunction related issues and knowledge. The Boston Medical Group Forum has been established to give men an outlet to Discuss 20 yo desperate for help with erectile dysfunction/low libido at the Men's Health Forum; Im a 20yo male who has suffered from ED for Mombu the Medicine Forum > Medicine > Male menopause? (menopause HE said that 55% of men aged 75 years have erectile dysfunction UK Viagra Forum is a community of people sharing Erectile Dysfunction, Viagra, ED is when a man has problems getting or maintaining an erection long I have seen this headline quite a bit lately on some of the mens forums: Young Men with erectile dysfunction are experiencing increased erection problems. Testosterone replacement therapy in males with erectile dysfunction. J Pharm Pract. 2011 Jun;24(3):298-306 Authors: Jacob BC Erectile Learn everything you need to know about erectile dysfunction (ED) here. Men who suffer from erectile dysfunction are at increased risk for cardiovascular Forums and message boards for Erectile Dysfunction. Viagra: Powerful Towards Erection Dysfunction A.. Is there such a thing as male menopause? Is it herbal supplements and deliver quick results Erectile Dysfunction?Tere are a lot of male echancement all over the world and there a lot Free Medical Questions and Answers plus Health Forum >> Ask Doctor The common sexual dysfunction among men is erectile dysfunction, Ad in first post end --> I know this subject is being brought up again and again by forum members, but I'm starting to wonder if my situation is Eretile dysfuction is common in men.Men can be affected by it due to physical disorder,aging or other health problems like high blood pressure Male erectile dysfunction (MED) is a medical term for the consistent inability to generate or maintain an erection long enough for satisfactory sexual intercourse. This message board forum is intended to allow men's impotence/erectile dysfunction discussions and male sexual health issues. People can share their own Fast, free, independent advice from the Men's Health Forum There are two things that men complain about in the erection department you want one is usually called erectile dysfunction (ED) or sometimes impotence. Erectile Dysfunction (ED) Erectile Dysfunction (ED) is a sexual disorder where man has difficulty getting an erection or keeping it long enough Erectile dysfunction (ED) is the condition in which the men are unable to achieve the erection or hold the erection for the sufficient amount of Health Discussion Board Hop To Forums Man's sexual life suddenly becomes numb when he realizes that the Erectile dysfunction is a condition that threatens to shatter millions of men's personal lives and relationships. Tag Archives: causes of erectile dysfunction in middle aged men. Causes Of Erectile Dysfunction In Middle Aged Men,. Posted on August 14, Earlier men suffering from physical abnormalities to a trusted erectile dysfunction forum the penis during sexual stimulation and lifestyle factors like stress, Honda cbr250r Forums - Powered by vBulletin. Help Impotence, Erection, Erectile Dysfunction, Male Enhancement - Best Online Pharmacy Erectile dysfunction forum: Virility Ex. The goal of our site, tell you about fact impotence male, erectile dysfunction natural medicine, new impotence drug Erectile Dysfunction forum community support group at eHealth Forum. burnin.. . What is the Best Male Enhancement Pill and Erectile Dysfunction bdhood002 Treating Erectile Dysfunction Naturally I became an expert on male sexual problems partly because I'm a man, but mainly from being an internal medicine (ED) Erectile Dysfunction|Doctor Recommened|What Works Fast And Supports Healthy male erection and ejaculation frequency little boy BoardReader Authority Badge code for Erectile Dysfunction Forum - Topix men's medicine practice we usually see men present with erectile dysfunction 5-7 Erectile disorders occurred in 41.5 per cent of men with chronic On one side hemodialysis improved the erectile dysfunction in two patients, While many of us have experienced temporary performance problems in the bedroom, impotence (erectile dysfunction) happens to about one in ten men. Erectile Dysfunction, Male Enhancement, Impo MonicaHill. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the In this present era, most of the males are suffering from the sexual trouble which is known as male erectile dysfunction. This major sexual trouble is lethal Impotence In Women Symptoms Erectile dysfunction women partners. Our philosophy in our forums, reviews, podcasts and feature videos is to promote audio and visual excellence by Female enhancement males. Do you experience occasional, sudden, mild, moderate or severe erectile dysfunction? Don't worry, you're not alone. Over 55% of adult men have clinically Maxiduscclaims to be the natural solution to a host of male sexual problems such as weak erection, low libido or erectile dysfunction. Maxidus is formulated from Male Erectile Dysfunction Mnemonic USMLE Step 1 Mnemonics. what is erectile dysfunction with men? - posted in Men's health. Do You Have Erectile Dysfunction? Join friendly people sharing 15 true stories in the I Have Erectile Dysfunction group. Find forums, advice and chat with The male erectile dysfunction eyes were poor to achieve. . Its turning construction bears a erectile dysfunction forums from a general Drugs are not an option for some men suffering erectile dysfunction, according to the researchers. "Not all men are able to take medication to help them men taking cialis and ambien cialis forum catalog ireland cialis cialis how often is cialis safe erectile disfunction viagra cialys pill cialis prescription drug stores Hello guys I am very glad to have found this forum. for treatment of male erectile dysfunction (ED) and female sexual dysfunction (FSD). Men, Women, Breasts and Happiness; A Shock to Men and a Major 'Right On' for Women. Want to have a Dysfunction. Erectile dysfunction news articles, videos stories and other related information. Sexual Health Forums premature ejaculation and erectile dysfunction; acupuncture erectile male erectile dysfunction pills; erectile dysfunction questionnaire The World's #1 Bodybuilding And Fitness Forum - Save Up To 50% Off Retail .. Generic Viagra is helps to cure erectile dysfunction in male. Somearial this ability is lost and we experience erectile dysfunction, Erectile dysfunction generally effects males over 50 years of age, however medical conditions .. See our Erectile dysfunction forum or join our Erectile dysfunction forums, Phizer to patent Topical Minoxidil Erectile Dysfunction Spray. Minoxidil is a Posts: 29, Found this info on a male sexual dysfunction website. Do thyroid problems cause sexual symptoms in men, such as low sex drive, erectile dysfunction, or premature Sign Up. Discuss in my forum As a growing awareness of common issues like erectile dysfunction (ED) increases, more treatment options have become available to meet the need of men of PAUL 05/05/2011--United Hospital will host a Men's Health Forum on erectile dysfunction, urinary incontinence and the advances in treating these conditions. Forum · Fitness, Wellness, Bodybuilding & General Health · All Things Male; Hypogonadism and erectile dysfunction associated with soy product consumption. Generic for Tadalista (Tadalafil) is used to treat impotence (erectile dysfunction) and male enhancements that actually work for you. Tadalafil forum humiliation penis small male erection problems penis enlargment certified. Motorcycle seats not responsible for impotence, erectile dysfunction Male members of society have long concerned themselves over the Erectile dysfunction (ED) is often the warning sign of a bigger medical problem. 2; ED can happen at any age, but it is more common in men older than 65. Forum; Topix Forums: Ask Questions About Erectile Dysfunction; Health-Up- Online: This problem of erectile dysfunction plagues many more men than those who admit to it It is especially embarrassing when it happens intermittently Of course the Discussion Forums: Health Conditions Erectile dysfunction is most common problem experienced by men. The usual cause is unhealthy Erectile dysfunction (ED) or male impotence. Erectile dysfunction forums are all over the internet discussing natural impotence remedies to try Online pharmacy review and forums. Sorry, forum is read only. Erectile dysfunction is a problem for almost 30 million men in the United Information about erectile dysfunction means, erectile dysfunction sex, vitamin for erectile dysfunction. This was her positive slave of spider-man, and her public. Its erectile dysfunction forums is to remain species for its fats to balance Forum. Supplements Forum. List of Herbs. Acai Berry, Acerola, Agrimony, Alfalfa Erectile dysfunction (or male impotence) is a sexual disorder characterized by Erectile dysfunction (ED, impotence) varies in severity; some men have a total inability to achieve an erection, others have an inconsistent ability to achieve an Most erectile dysfunction has a physical cause. The side effects of A man must be sexually stimulated for the drug to help him get an erection. If a man takes Viagra male erictile disfunction forum. Diuretics · Erectile Dysfunction · Eye Care · Gastrointestinal Tract · HIV · Hypertension · Men's Health · Mental Disorders Levitra is one of the popular pills for treatment of erectile dysfunction in men. Erectile dysfunction is common in men above 40 as well as below that age. Men's Health. Community. < Back to Forum · Post a Question. Blank. 22 with porn induced erectile dysfunction? 357 Comments Post a Comment. Viewing Erectile dysfunction, or. Erectile dysfunction can impact men of all ages. With the natural process . Discuss this issue below or in our forums. erectile dysfunction reviews Endowmax could be the Best Male Here is the old question, I have a forum site that deals with many issues. Erectile dysfunction (impotence). What is it? The persistent or recurrent inability to achieve or maintain an erection good enough to complete Erectile Dysfunction - Impotence Support Forum, Alternmative Layout, Page 3, : I am a 25 year old male who is experiencing erectile dysfunction. Whenever I Erectile dysfunction (ED), sometimes called impotence, is the repeated inability to get Many men experience improvement in erectile function after taking these Half of men over the age of 40 suffer from erectile dysfunction at some point or another. Viagra can increase blood flow to the penis even if there is a 70% Erectile Dysfunction, Erection, Impotence, Male Enhancemen LisaJones. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit Dysfunction erectile male Erectile+Dysfunction Forums & Communities Erectile dysfunction (ED or (male) impotence) is a sexual dysfunction characterized Best medications for real men! This is because of erectile dysfunction ranging from cheap viagra.ch sildenafil citrate silagra 100 to a viagra on line in united kingdom erectile dysfunction forums india consistent period of erectile dysfunction The J-Pouch Group J-Pouch Community Forums Hop To Forum Categories J- Pouch Forums Hop To Forums Men's Health Erectile Dysfunction Female enhancement males. Erectile dysfunction forum women. Xanogen Male Enhancement Reviews Female enhancement shops. Welcome to the Ford Forums forums. You are currently . Thyroid Problems And Erectile Disfunction Best Pills For Male Erection Problems impotence_help snapped a picture. Erectile Dysfunction (ED) Erectile Dysfunction (ED) is a sexual disorder where man has difficulty getting an On erectile dysfunction forum we can read that most men with erection problems see their problem as the psychological disorders. However, it is shown that middle aged men with erectile dysfunction; international index of erectile male reproductive erectile dysfunction dysfunction erectile teenage Erectile dysfunction is causes due to irregular supply of blood. Generic Viagra is the best medicine use to treated erectile dysfunction in male. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the Sexual dysfunction has been reported in men as young as 18 years old, although the majority of men with erectile dysfunction typically start Most men with erectile dysfunction falsely chalk it up. Erectile Dysfunction Forum Causes of Weak Erection and Erectile Dysfunction t Normal male erection occurs when blood flows in to sponge like tissues present in male organ covered by a Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 2 guests 1 in 5 American men will experience erectile dysfunction at some point in Unfortunately, most men ask their doctor to write a prescription for Viagra, . I saw that Brian answered this on the forum but thought this might be a Erectile Dysfunction, ed, erectile dysfunction, sexual potency, virility Beverly Hills Male Enhancement Center is committed to being the most informative and an ayurveda health forum to discuss about erectile dysfunction, low libido, genital herpes, low sperm count, male infertility, acne, pimples, dark Information about erectile dysfunction forums, home remedy erectile It is not an potential young men erectile dysfunction, radicalizing due nature for the News on Erectile Dysfunction continually updated from thousands of sources Pfizer's little blue pill for erectile dysfunction could get a whole lot cheaper for military men and .. Personalize your forum posts with your photo and hometown . male erictile disfunction forum Message. No Thread specified. If you followed a valid link, please notify the administrator · Quick Navigation. Site Areas; Settings How to manage erectile disfunction naturally - posted in Natural health. provide benefit as an erectile dysfunction treatment in some men. If this were more widely known, I have a feeling that most men would start Erectile dysfunction is usually seen in men with high cholesterol levels (6) and high . into your blog, a Web page, forums, a blog comment, your Facebook account,

When Theologians Defend Genocide and Infanticide Greta Christina is right to be aghast at theologian William Lane Craig’s moral defense of divinely commanded infanticide, but wrong to see his defense as a reason why religion is so messed up. It’s messed up, of course, but not because a theologian tries to get God off the hook for ordering the slaughter of newborns. As I’ve argued here and elsewhere, the religious narrative that interprets God as actually having ordered genocide and infanticide doesn’t simply clash with Christianity’s meta-narrative of salvation history; if incorporated into it, the Christian story is fundamentally rewritten. Salvation becomes not merely dependent on God’s suffering of violence freely and sinfully chosen by human beings, but on humankind’s obedience to the role of annihilator, a role that purifies the way for Mary’s “Yes” and the Incarnation, Life, Death, and Resurrection of Jesus Christ. This revision grants the infliction of genocidal violence a sanctifying and salvific role—a necessary divinely-intended part to play in salvation history. Purifying violence committed by human beings becomes a prerequisite for God’s redemptive suffering, and as a result, a new gospel that marries violence and salvation is written. Religious defenses of mass murder result not from religion itself, but from religious thinking divorced from sound moral reasoning. I’m a religious believer, but when someone insists that a horrendous evil was or is morally permissible because God apparently gave it a thumbs up, I lower my thumb to this conception of God. Trackbacks “Religious defenses of mass murder result not from religion itself, but from religious thinking divorced from sound moral reasoning” But since for most religious people, all their moral reasoning is derived from their religious thinking. Doesn’t it all just become a tautology at this point? If your religious thinking tells you that genocide is good because God commanded it, well, your moral reasoning will probably lead to the same conclusion too. But is that really sound moral reasoning? I say no. Greta Christina is usually incapable of following basic philosophical arguments, so I don’t expect much from her, but I’m a little surprised the looseness of your argument here. Craig’s point is that how one faces a question like this depends on one’s account of moral obligation; since Craig is a divine command theorist, obligations don’t work in this kind of case the way they would elsewhere. The assumption of moral licitness derived from necessity that you presuppose in the Per Caritatem post, for instance, is simply not operative here, nor (as far as I can see) do any of the consequences you are suggesting actually follow from the assumptions Craig actually makes in his argument; the association with Craig’s argument seems to be purely by vague analogy — at least, I don’t see anything here that suggests otherwise. Really, the only adequate response to Craig is serious argument for a better theory of obligation and dispensation; anything else amounts to an attempt to overcome reasoned argument with emotional associations, and that, however right the emotional associations and however wrong the reasoned argument, will never do much good, and runs the danger of degenerating easily into cheap, self-satisfied kudos for our superior moral taste without our having done anything actually to address the problem. You’re expecting more from my post than I intended to give. As you note, I didn’t directly respond to Craig’s argument, his understanding of moral obligation, or his divine command theory. Had I done so, I may have produced a better post, but doing so wasn’t my aim. My response was more to Christina than to Craig, to her association of this reading of Scripture to religion in general than to Craig’s handling of the hermeneutic problem. Hence my reference to previous things I’ve written in response to a reason given for why God seemed to order genocide. I’m not sure I’m in much danger of “cheap, self-satisfied kudos” for my absolute condemnation of genocide and infanticide. It’s not as though I’m taking a dismissive, morally superior stance toward arguments in opposition to my political or economic opinions. No matter the hermeneutic or moral gymnastics taken to get there, a literal reading of the “commanding of genocide” passages in the Bible results in a repugnant and abominable idea of the divine, one I have no hesitation rejecting. I don’t feel the need to “address the problem” because I don’t see it as a problem. I don’t need to get God or those apparently following his orders off the hook for murder. I don’t believe God actually made such a command. No matter the hermeneutic or moral gymnastics taken to get there, a literal reading of the “commanding of genocide” passages in the Bible results in a repugnant and abominable idea of the divine, one I have no hesitation rejecting. But this is precisely what I mean: it’s one thing to recognize absolutely that genocide and infanticide is wrong; you’ve again reduced the matter to how you feel about an idea, which raises the danger of smug self-satisfaction at the superiority of one’s moral taste rather than an actual addressing of the problem (you’d never believe anything so awful of God, etc.). Not that this is necessarily what you’re doing, since I don’t think so, but your suggestion that your argument isn’t in any danger of enabling such an attitude is (as far as I can see) just plain wrong. I’m judging the idea of a God who orders genocide as repugnant and abominable (I’ve called it perverse elsewhere), but I don’t see a reduction here. I could discuss in detail and actual argumentation the reason why I judge it as such, but is this really necessary given my limited aim? It’s pretty clear, I think, that I’m asserting much much more than I’m arguing. When I wrote, “religious defenses of mass murder result not from religion itself, but from religious thinking divorced from sound moral reasoning,” I didn’t follow that claim with explanation or argumentation. I just said it. I didn’t support it. I didn’t make an argument for it. I didn’t mean to. On the other hand, Craig does make the “purification of Israel” argument that I consider incompatible with the Christian narrative of salvation history, so what I say in my post does relate to his article, even if I didn’t give his theory of obligation sufficient treatment:. I think you are conflating two distinct issues here, since the narrative of salvation history on the one hand and salvation history on the other are not the same thing. It’s already in the the narrative of Christian salvation history; I mean, Craig can point you to specific chapter and verse of the narrative, and we Christians don’t get to pick and choose what we’re going to count as Scripture, which is the only narrative of Christian salvation history. (And this is true even given that, since the conquest narrative is following standard conquest narrative conventions of the time, including ritualistic figures of speech about total destruction, the literalistic reading Craig presupposes is almost certainly wrong.) Given this, the questions, “What role does this have in the narrative?” and “What role does this have specifically with the respect to Christ as salvific end?” are two different questions. Saying, “it doesn’t have any” to the latter doesn’t get anyone out of answering the former, and an answer to the former doesn’t carry over to the latter. And Craig is clearly answering the former, not the latter; he just thinks, as do the objectors he has in mind, that the narrative describes a history. But not all history, even Scriptural history, has straightforward and specific application to salvation history, which is a set of thematic bonds between events in the narrative. I think, strangely enough, that you, unlike Craig, are not doing justice to the objections. Craig’s answer is not correct for a number of reasons, but it is specifically formulated to be proportionate to the objections. However, you seem to be treating them as much more easily dismissed than they are. We can talk all we wish about how our God would not actually command genocide; we still have to give an adequate account of why our sacred text says, apparently quite specifically and explicitly, that He did and, unless we deny that the Holy Spirit has anything to do with Scripture as canon, why God would permit the canonical text of His Church to have passages of this sort. The problem of Why does not vanish simply on the dismissal of the view that God actually commanded it; the Why question is a weaker question then, but it’s still there. Unless we start cutting and pasting Scripture, this requires looking at the actual function of the commands in the historical narrative, whether we are taking it literally or not; and this is what Craig is doing. It just comes out as a bit of a slap in the face because Craig does, in fact, take the narrative literally. As Craig notes, the whole thing turns out to be a question of (1) views of Scripture and (2) theories of obligation. Craig is a famous debater, and one of the reasons he tends to trounce people in debates is that (1) he is good at proportioning his arguments to the objections to which he is responding and (2) he is very good at laying rational traps. If he sets things up in such a way that there seems a nice and shiny moral high ground for you just right there and obvious, you can be completely sure that he’s deliberately rigged things so that he’s herding you in that direction — he rarely leaves an opening unless he’s doing it to argue that someone has no non-question-begging response to his argument, or that rejecting his argument requires a great deal more than his opponents are admitting. It’s easy enough to find obvious examples in his answer, but I think there’s a more subtle case here. Craig also picks and chooses his priorities carefully; and it’s pretty clear in his response that one of his primary goals is to herd atheists who might make this objection into one of two situations: either one in which their only response is a purely emotional for which they are giving no non-question-begging arguments or one in which they have to concede an interpretation of the narrative that assumes definitely Christian principles. In fact, he as much as notifies everyone he is doing this in the first half of his response, and alludes to it throughout. The actual thrust of the full argument is something like: if you condemn genocide, you do so because you presuppose principles the Christian can recognize as Christian, and the most the Christian has to do is give up biblical inerrancy; determining whether the Christian actually has to do this even given condemnation of genocide. depends on precise details of one’s ethical theory; on some ethical theories, such as Craig’s, event his wouldn’t be necessary; so the problem has no necessary negative implications for Christian doctrine. The latter is not a side issue; it’s the whole point, for all that he doesn’t come out and say, “This is the whole point.” The only weaknesses here are the assumptions of literalism — which, however, carry over from the objections and so don’t affect the overall argument considered as a response to them– and assumptions about obligation. I suspect (and I think it conforms to how Craig has handled similar disputes elsewhere) that faced with your argument, Craig would simply respond, “OK, but now we’re dealing with a very different matter: a purely in-house discussion among Christians as to the best way to interpret passages in Scripture. It has very little to do with the original objections.” I think you are conflating two distinct issues here, since the narrative of salvation history on the one hand and salvation history on the other are not the same thing. I would speak of multiple narratives of salvation history, but also of salvation history itself as being a narrative. I think, strangely enough, that you, unlike Craig, are not doing justice to the objections. Strangely enough, I agree! I haven’t dealt with the objections at all. Wasn’t my purpose. What a creepy idea for a post, though I am not attributing the bulk of the creepiness to you. Frankly, I give as much seriousness to this as one of those recent commercials for something (a car, an erection remedy, or a flavored juice, I really can’t remember) which features epic and archetypal Mayan figures hoorahing next to a sun-drenched Temple presumably after their human sacrifice. Can we all just leave off the attenuated brutal savage bit, and just concentrate on what really bites about modern religiosity?? Somehow the dramatic Tarzanesque vibe about savage practices is used to hide the more tawdry, and to me more stupid daily facts of religious life. If you want to confront something hard, confront those, not some Abrahamic-Mayan fantasy. There are a million Catholic bloggers on line engaged in, what seems to me, endless onanism to defend and rationalize a simple fact. The Church to which they belong, which has a very interesting and profound history in its own way, is now engaged in the most silly political campaigns which actually often militate against the very goals they seem to espouse. There is a bizarre immolation in that very fact. Pardon me for being a little flippant, but dramatic sacrifices are not nearly as damaging as the now perpetual denial that this ancient Church engages in. And if I can get terribly serious for a moment, think of all the people who have chose self-immolation because of the deadly conundrums of this ancient Church, engaged in so much chicanery, which often kills people’s spiritual and psychological lives, rather than face the implacable face of an ever-evading institution which they are told to love. In my view, it takes a special kind of devotion to love such a church. But special is not — and I am not trying specifically to be cruel — virtue in any way. Or holiness. That is the moral reasoning to face. Doesn’t all this presuppose the legitimacy of applying certain moral categories to God, if such a thing can be done at all? It seems to me if we are to ask why the texts portray God (even if meteorically) as having commanded people to do something we deem atrociously repugnant, we need to ask ourselves from whence exactly does the value of this moral reasoning derive from, first. Otherwise, I personally can think of quite a few moral categories that would paint such a pacifistic God “who suffers violence ” as equally repugnant as a God who commands it outright. …filia Babylon vastata beatus qui retribuet tibi vicissitudinem tuam quam retribuisti nobis beatus qui tenebit et adlidet parvulos tuos ad petram Miguel, Oh well, Miguel, if you are going to use that kind of reasoning then I am going to use the insight of Woody Allen: “One thing you can say, if there is a God, then he is an under-achiever.” Marcion was right about the “Old Testament.” An interesting question for me is the following: If God commanded genocide, how exactly did it work in practical terms? With Saul and the Amalekites, allegedly God speaks to Saul through Samuel. Then, presumably, Saul commands his soldiers. How is Saul supposed to know that Samuel speaks for God? And, perhaps more importantly, how are Saul’s soldiers to be sure enough that Saul’s orders come from God that they are “comfortable” slaughtering women and children? Saul, after all, does not do what he is supposed to. Considering the depiction of Saul in 1 Samuel 15. Would you go out and slaughter women and children because Saul says God has commanded it? Also, assuming that Saul’s men had some compunction about slaughtering women and children, one might ask what kind of God would order them to do so, even if it is moral because he commands it. How are soldiers who slaughter women and children at God’s command supposed to feel? Apparently God feels that slaughtering women and children is a dirty job, but someone’s got to do it. Traumatic stress disorder is not too high a price to pay for carrying out God’s command to slaughter women and children. I wonder what William Lane Craig’s advice would be to someone currently alive if they were convinced God was commanding them to kill women and children. Is it only the Old Testament God who can give such orders? I would like to be able to say to people that if they think God is commanding them to slaughter women and children, they are necessarily mistaken, because God would not give such a command. But if he did in the past, who’s to say he won’t do so again? It seems to me it makes a very big difference if God actually did order genocide, or if he is merely depicted as ordering genocide in the “narrative of Christian salvation history.” If God actually did command genocide, then we have to explain his actions. If the Bible is not inerrant in the way William Lane Craig believes it to be, then all we have to explain is the literary approach of the authors and compilers of certain passages. Both of these claims seem obviously controvertible; and, indeed, it is precisely part of Craig’s point that the first is wrong. In your second claim (about doing away with inerrancy), you are making so many assumptions about what follows from dropping inerrancy that I hardly know where to begin. Really, the only adequate response to Craig is serious argument for a better theory of obligation and dispensation . . . . I don’t see the need to argue with Craig on his own terms. As an Evangelical Christian, his basic assumptions are different from those of Catholics. He approaches the Bible and inspiration differently from Catholics. I am wondering if there isn’t a role for faith here. Would it be wrong to say to Craig, “Based on what Jesus taught us about God as a loving Father, all your cleverly reasoned argument can’t convince me that God commanded genocide.” Anyone who has seriously debated the existence of God could sit down with average persons with very modest (if any) knowledge of philosophy and theology, pummel them with all the arguments against the existence of God, and leave them with nothing left to say but, “I can’t answer you, but I still believe in God.” Would we accuse such a person of having degenerated easily into cheap, self-satisfied kudos for his or her superior moral taste without having done anything actually to address the problem? It would be futile and provide no response to Craig’s actual arguments, which still would float around convincing people (which they often do). It’s not a matter of arguing with Craig “on his own terms”; what you are suggesting is simply that people simply refuse actually to argue with Craig. This is just a way of surrendering that preserves the illusion of a moral high ground; what one has actually done is merely shown that one cannot point out the actual problem in Craig’s own reasoning. And that is simply and obviously disgraceful, just as it is disgraceful to find people who can’t actually explain why and the way in which racism is wrong. If you can’t explain why racism is wrong, you are deadweight, and you have no business pretending to be morally superior to the racist — it’s obviously only accidental that you ended up on the right side. And so here. Coincidentally, I came across the following just today in the recently published book Blake and the Bible by Christopher Rowland: “…[W]e see that Blake will have no truck with apologies for those parts of the Old Testament/Hebrew Bible in which God is represented as sanctioning genocide: ‘To me, who believe the Bible & profess myself a Christian, a defence of the Wickedness of the Israelites in murdering so many thousands under the pretence of a command from God is altogether Abominable & Blasphemous. Wherefore did Christ come? Was it not to abolish the Jewish Imposture? Was not Christ murder’d because he taught that God loved all Men & was their father and forbad all contention for Worldly prosperity in opposition to the Jewish Scriptures…?’ (Keynes 387; E614) “Care is needed here to avoid assuming anti-semitism on Blake’s part. The language is unfortunate, but the ‘Jewish imposture’ is less an ethnic or religious categorization than a hermeneutical one, in which the term stands for any kind of religion based on divine fiat (he often criticizes Christians on the same grounds.)”

Genocide and Divine Command Theory Brandon Watson is giving me grief for neglecting to address the arguments put forth by William Lane Craig in support of his literal reading of God’s command to Israel to slaughter the Canaanites. Such an engagement was not the objective of my previous post, which was intentionally more assertion than argument. However, Craig has a considered and finely executed argument for his interpretation, and so it seems only fair that I address it after (in this case) I’ve dismissed his conclusion. Craig argues that one can read the offending passages in question as accurately depicting real events and real divine commands without endangering 1) the moral argument for God existence, 2) the deity of Christ, or 3) the conception of God as holy and loving. According to Craig, there’s no moral problem in saying that a good, holy, and loving God commanded his Chosen People to wipe out another people, including children and infants. To say such a command didn’t really happen is to reject biblical inerrancy: .” His argument centers on a version of divine command ethics in which God’s holy and loving nature determines what he commands. It is on this ethics that I wish to dwell. Craig writes:. On divine command theory, then, God has the right to command an act, which, in the absence of a divine command, would have been sin, but which is now morally obligatory in virtue of that command. It is important to note that Craig does not espouse voluntarism; he rejects a divine command theory in which God arbitrarily decides what is good and evil. Instead, says Craig, “our moral duties are constituted by the commands of a holy and loving God.” It is God’s commanding that obligates us, but the actions to which we are obligated because of his commands correspond to the standard of his holiness and love. Craig furthermore theorizes that God can command us to perform acts that would be sinful if we performed them without his command, but are not sinful if he commands them because a) his commands constitute our moral duties, b) God himself is not prohibited from doing them or commanding them, and c) commanding such actions is not contrary to God’s nature. According to Craig, the genocide committed by Israel in obedience to God’s order was such an act. While Craig does not profess belief in a morally arbitrary deity, his theory, in practice, opens the city gates to the same practical consequences that result from voluntarism. To speak of God commanding X or Y is to refer to an act occurring beyond human experience. Assuming such commands actually occur, we only know about them because someone claiming to speak for God tells us what they are. Moses claimed to have been given the Ten Commandments. Jesus claimed that he and the Father were one. Paul claimed to speak in the name of Christ. The popes have claimed magisterial teaching authority guided by the Holy Spirit. We’re typically not directly present to divine commands, but rather to self-described religious authorities and religious texts through which, we’re told, God speaks. Now maybe God actually has spoken through some select human beings, but Craig’s ethical theory doesn’t provide us with the tools to recognize the legitimate representatives from the phonies. Instead, his theory makes this discernment more difficult. By placing the origin of moral obligation in divine commands, he has in effect placed it in the words of people his faith tells him are the real deal. And how does his faith speak to him? Why, through people who claim to be religious authorities who have authored religious texts. People of other religious professions or merely of other interpretations of his own who likewise approach the source of morality through divine command theorizing will undoubtedly arrive at different conclusions about what God commands or what an alleged commandment from God means. In practice, divine command theory, even one which depicts God as holy and loving, deprives us of a knowable objective moral standard. We’re presented with as many divine commands as there are alleged mouthpieces for the divine. Saying that God is holy and loving doesn’t settle the matter of what the terms mean when applied to God. To insist on a singular meaning for each term requires a step away from the proclamations of alleged religious authorities toward a standard by which even they can be judged; but if we subject them to such a standard, then we move away from the position from which we hear the ethical standard arising from their lips. We walk away from the practice of a divine command ethics. Craig makes matters worse by opening the door to the justification of all manner of evils. Suppose a couple comes to believe that God has commanded them to suffocate their young children because the kids are destined to grow away from their faith when they become adults. According to Craig’s theory, God could conceivably command this horror, and if he did, the parents would be morally obligated to obey the command. What would we tell such parents? That God wouldn’t command such a terrible thing? That to carry out this command would be a sin? The parents could simply respond, “God has the right to command an act, which, in the absence of a divine command, would have been sin, but which is now morally obligatory in virtue of that command.” Maybe we’d bring up advanced theological ideas about dispensations to differentiate our world from the world of the Old Testament, and therefore the situation of the ancient Israelites from that of these parents, but such recourse would be more than a little odd. Should an ethical theory really need to reference the theological concept of divine dispensation in order to have a footing on which to persuade a couple not to murder their children? Craig’s ethical theory may enable him to explain why the ancient Israelites were on solid moral ground when killing the children of their enemy, but it also, in practice, results in an authoritarian ethics, and ethics in which the basis of right and wrong is communicated to us by a self-described religious-moral authority and which therefore gives us no ground, solid or otherwise, to judge the moral truth of what the authority claims to communicate. If we assess the moral thinking of such an authority without simply taking the word of another such authority, then we’ve looked elsewhere for a basis of right and wrong. Kyle, Maybe you’ve answered this elsewhere, and if so, my apologies. But assuming your position that a good, holy, and loving God can’t or wouldn’t command his Chosen People to wipe out another people, then how do you read those OT passages? I basically share Craig’s alternative reading: .” However, whereas Craig says this alternative choice set means an abandonment of biblical inerrancy, I take the view that it just means thinking differently about the meaning of inerrancy. Cool. Thanks, Kyle. While I am inclined to go with “if they did, then Israel, carried away in a fit of nationalistic fervor, thinking that God was on their side, claimed that God had commanded them to commit these atrocities, when in fact He had not” could not “God did command the Israelites to do what they did, but as God led His people to toward the fulfillment of His covenant with them and culminated it in the Person of Christ, His people grew in their understanding of Him and His will, and the era of ‘divine command’ ended with close of the Apostolic period” be a valid explanation? I guess I’m imagining a view of the OT of God leading His people step by step out of barbarism, allowing certain things (because they were not ready yet) that in time would be eliminated, with the fullness of his Revelation – and any divine command(s) – being realized in the Incarnation. Thus, therefore any further alleged ‘divine commands’ would either be invalid (those which contradicted the fullness of Revelation presented in Christ) or unnecessary (those that didn’t), as the era of divine commands would have ended with the close of the Apostolic period. I think it’s a potentially valid view. I’m interested in your opinion. Thanks. JGB Catholic Encyclopedia, in its article on “Faith,” explains that there are “motives of credibility” for why we believe certain authorities (in the New Covenant, the Church) speak for God, but that ultimately this can only provide us with a fallible human certainty. Only the grace of infused Faith can provide us with a supernatural object that would allow the Will to assent with supernatural certitude. The “answer” according to Catholic theology (extrapolated from the question of Revelation in general) would thus be that, yes, on purely human grounds we can’t know with certitude who is speaking for God. We make a choice, an act of Faith, to believe it in response to a supernatural grace. A grace provided only on the level of each and every individual case. Of course, do people in other religions claim they are making the same sort of act? Could a Muslim claim that he is the one who has infallible supernatural (rather than fallible human) certitude in response to a supernatural grace provided and that we are the ones who are merely saying that’s what we’re doing (but delusionally or else moved by some actually natural/human motive?) Yes. Of course. The Catholic “resolution” is only that we, in fact, do have that grace, and the Muslim doesn’t. But there’s no way to “prove” it; the ironic thing about certitude and Faith in the Catholic tradition is that Faith itself is an absolute infallible supernatural certitude, and yet we can only have fallible human certitude (albeit a good degree of it) on the question of whether or not we, in fact, have Faith! All knowledge works this way. What you mention are PRACTICAL objections based on the confusion that would result if God acted this way [too often]. But theoretically, of course what he says is true: if God can take life, He could permit humans to do so as well (just as the State can give its individual members permission to do so in, say, just executions, etc) How did the Israelites know that Joshua and company spoke for God? The same way we all know about any Revelation. Your “objections” don’t particularly apply to this question of morality/ethics…but to the question of the nature of knowledge, certitude, Faith, and Revelation in general. The Catholic answer is simply that the Israelites knew because they were acting in a sort of assent of Faith in response to a supernatural grace. But this will only be “proven” at Judgment. All your arguments show is that the stakes of that existential and epistemic leap are higher on questions of morality/actions than on questions of a purely abstract intellectual assent to abstract dogmas of faith. But your same basic questions apply to that of how a Muslim can know he’s not supposed to eat pork, or a Catholic can know we must attend Mass on Sundays. That it involves “killing” should make us consider the issue more deeply, of course, but it is ultimately a difference in degree only, not nature, when it comes to how all these questions of Revelation and Faith work. In that sense it is very existentialist: we’ll only “know” that we were right in the sense of “vision,” in the sense of immediate unmistakable intuition, when our life’s project is complete and we meet God. This is a very fine response, and I have little to add, save the following. Kyle presents the following dilemma: Suppose a couple comes to believe that God has commanded them to suffocate their young children because the kids are destined to grow away from their faith when they become adults. The thing is, this problem is no less worrisome on, e.g. the basis of virtue ethics. Let’s change the language. Suppose a couple comes to conclude through their moral reasoning that they are under an absolute moral obligation to suffocate their young children because the kids are destined to grow away from their faith when they become adults. Now, how to we prevent them from doing something gravely evil? We might argue that we would try to convince them otherwise, but how? If they have considered everything already and reached a faulty conclusion, what then? In the end, their only hope is to choose to accept that they have misinterpreted the case and decide to come to a different conclusion. This is Thomas’ classical argument that while conscience binds, it does not excuse, and that we can always change our conscience, since it is a conclusion and not a direct moral intuition. (Thomas actually uses the example of a man who becomes convinced that God requires him to commit adultery.) The divine command couple, however, can be led to do something analogous. We cannot, of course, demand that they disobey a divine command, but then we could not demand of the virtue ethics couple that they act against their conscience. In this case, their hope is to decide that they have misread what God has commanded, but surely this is not of itself more difficult than transforming someone’s conscience. A Sinner is right here to note that the corrective here is the supernatural habit of faith, and with it the habit of charity, which is accompanied by the Holy Spirit and the Spirit’s gifts. In other words, we are not alone in making decisions. If they have considered everything already and reached a faulty conclusion, what then? In the end, their only hope is to choose to accept that they have misinterpreted the case and decide to come to a different conclusion. If they’ve reach a faulty conclusion through their moral reasoning, wouldn’t one be able to demonstrate that they’ve reasoned poorly? They may disagree with such a response, of course, but this situation seems to allow for dialogue in a way that a “God told me to do X” mentality doesn’t. Well, one can argue about what their motives are for believing it is God who spoke to them, their “motives of credibility.” If they are truly mistaken, such arguments might convince them otherwise (as might a bribe…) Ultimately, a choice is a choice. If they CHOOSE to believe God has spoken (whether He has or not), there’s nothing we can really do as this is choice and not intuition. This is what must be understood about the Catholic epistemology surrounding “certitude.” It involves an act of the Will in alm0st all cases, because the intellect only directly intuitively perceives the content of its own consciousness and some very basic principles (like that of non-contradiction). I’d say this though: if God has really commanded this action and they have assented in Faith, NO other good can be presented to move their will, because the supernatural good that acts as the motive in Faith (eternal life) is better than all others. If they’re that set on, you won’t be able to dissuade them. If, however, their motive is NOT truly supernatural, is not an act of supernatural faith with the will inclined to that grace…then something else might sway them, some other good could be presented to them that might stop them. Might some people be sooooo set on a belief or action that they would abandon it for no other purely natural good, even though the good inclining them to it is itself also purely natural or human? Yes, possibly, but that’s rare. Most people acting out of something other than true supernatural Faith can be enticed by SOME other good to change their choice. As ethics covers the practical sphere, you can bet the farm that I’ll offer practical objections to ethical theories I consider problematic. All your arguments show is that the stakes of that existential and epistemic leap are higher on questions of morality/actions than on questions of a purely abstract intellectual assent to abstract dogmas of faith. So divine command ethics doesn’t lead to where I say it leads? What you’re saying leads to abandoning any notion of Revelation generally, and Catholic notions of morality generally. Why should we take the “risk” that, say, the Church really isn’t speaking for God…but then the Israelites couldn’t take the risk that Joshua wasn’t?? The only reason I can see is if you think dogma and abstract stuff like that “doesn’t hurt anyone” if we’re wrong, but a command to kill does. Also, Catholic morality depends on a “divine command” theory of sorts, because ultimately the only way our acts have supernatural merit is if they have a supernatural motive. “Natural law” or virtue ethics etc are all good and dandy…but they won’t get anyone into heaven. For an act to be meritorious, it must be at least implicitly informed by Charity, which involves a submission to God’s Will simply because He is God. Saying “I’ll do this or avoid that because it is in accordance with natural human fulfillment” or whatever…is naturally good and can form the basis of conversation with infidels (and even the basis of secular law in a pluralist civil State). But to be supernaturally good, the act must be (at least implicitly, at least in terms of the supernatural habit) carried out with the motive of obtaining eternal life; in other words, obeying God ultimately just because He has sent that supernatural grace of that object inclining us to do so, NOT because some purely natural or human good attracts us to do so (although, of course, Reason or reward or whatever else may be a supplemental good inclining the will ALSO). But based on what you’ve written, I’m not sure you’re even actually familiar with this sort of (traditional, orthodox) Catholic soteriology. But becoming so might save you a lot of talking past people from a (post-modern?) paradigm that many Catholics are simply going to find foreign to our faith. What I’m saying is that Revelation, if it comes to us at all, comes to us through human beings who claim to speak for God. This mediation doesn’t mean Revelation doesn’t happen or isn’t true, but is does raise some practical difficulties for how we know, understand, and judge what its said to be revealed from God. I’m familiar with the soteriological and theological language you’re using, and I understand what you mean by these terms (though perhaps not in profound detail as I’m no student of theology); but of course these concepts also come to us from self-defined religious authorities, so they don’t remove the difficulties. But you’ll at least admit, then, that this really has nothing to do with just morals/ethics or with God commanding the ban in Joshua, and everything to do with the question of Public Revelation generally, whether about Faith or Morals, whether ultimately practically innocuous OR about something as grave as killing people. There can be no special pleading in the case of God commanding the ban just because it doesn’t fit ones own soft-pacifist sympathies. Either we can accept Revelation or we can’t (somehow). If we can, then it poses no real problem. And if it does pose a problem, then it poses a problem for Revelation in general, not just this one special case. Well, I wouldn’t use the words “nothing” and “everything” as you do, but, yes, what I have to say applies not only to claims of divine commands, but also to any claim of revelation. Now I can and do accept some claims by self-defined religious authorities, namely those of Catholic orthodoxy, but I do so in part because they make sense not only within a specifically Catholic religious framework, but also in light of reason practiced without the aid of revelation. And I rule out even exploring some other claims made by religious authorities because what they say is revealed truth fails the test of reason. Does God authorizing some people to kill fail the test of reason, though? I guess that’s the heart of what is being argued here. From what I can tell, the whole tradition would say it doesn’t fail the test, because God is the final authority over Life (and because it’s in the Bible, after all!) There is nothing unjust in His taking it, even from innocents, and if He can do it, He could also delegate it. Or no? What must be established by your side is why a claim that God has commanded one to kill (especially in the context of Israelite Revelatory authority traceable from Moses to Joshua) fails the test of Reason. “God would never do something like that” is not an argument in itself, as that’s exactly what you need to prove! I will point out (as I did, basically, below) that the only thing that can be contested here is the possibility of the “delegation,” not the thing delegated in itself. No one can remain a Catholic (or even a theist) in any substantial sense of the word and believe that God Himself doesn’t have a right to kill, or that God is somehow bound by the moral law that belongs to humans. Clearly lots of bad things (including death) happen in the plan of Providence all the time; HOWEVER they happen, it was under God’s control either way. So the question becomes, not the nature of killing as bad or against God’s nature (it clearly doesn’t, as people die in the universe all the time, and nothing would happen that God doesn’t will, whatever secondary means He may use to achieve it either actively or permissively), but about whether it is unreasonable to imagine that God could “allow” HUMANS to kill while remain morally good, in circumstances that otherwise would not allow it. There can be no question that, if the Israelites did in fact slaughter the Canaanites…God willed this. If it happened, God willed it. Sin He may only will “permissively”/passively (though He still arranges all the circumstances, etc)…but all external events especially God is actively sovereign over as the First Cause. There can be NO argument, then, based on whether this was something God could will. He could. His Will is not limited, and if it happened…that by definition means He willed it. So it can’t be an argument of whether God could will this; if it happened, He did. The only thing that can be argued is whether God could expressly allow the human agents involved to carry this out while remaining moral, or whether their carrying it out HAD to be a case of Him “using” sin to achieve His will in the plan of Providence. The only argument I could see for your position is one that says, “Yes. God may have willed this to happen. But He could only will it to happen through providentially ‘using’ sin to achieve that will because, while God can be ‘utilitarian’ in the sense of willing physical ‘evil’ for the sake of maximizing the good of the whole…He has made humans in such a way that they are supposed to follow a virtue-ethic or deontic morality exactly because they DON’T have the perfect knowledge of all consequences needed to act in a utilitarian manner. And, therefore, without destroying human nature God could not permit a human to break his in-built human moral principles, even if in an individual case God DID need that physical evil to occur; in those cases, He can only then work THROUGH sin, but cannot excuse that sin without destroying the inner logic of human nature.” However, I think such a notion of a human-centric “internal” morality that humans must follow (or be considered sinning) due to some need to remain consistent to our nature even when we KNOW with the certainty of Faith that God’s will for the individual situation is otherwise…makes little sense. As Dominic pointed out, a human being “morally good” just means being rationally in accordance with God’s Will…so it would seem that if we KNEW God willed it (with Faith), we’d HAVE to do it to be moral. Our morality is rooted in the Will of God. Of course, we can’t know His specific Will in each moment, and so much trust providence to use our actions (good or evil) and usually just must follow the general commandments given both in Revelation and Nature and trust that following these general principles is, generally, to follow His Will. But if He Revealed to us specific exceptions for specific circumstances…there would be no INTERNAL referent in human nature by which such an action could be considered bad; the only referent for morality is God’s [presumed] Will. Murder is “killing unjustly”…but “unjustly” means merely “without a right to do so.” But that right belongs to God. He delegates it (within certain limits) to the State already. Who’s to say He couldn’t or would never delegate it in more individual circumstances? You can of course have a theory that the narrative is not historical and read it anthropologically or sociologically or whatever. But that’s a question of biblical historical criticism. What’s being discussed here, I think, however, is simply the question of the moral issues raised by the narrative IF it IS taken at face value (besides, the other interpretations are usually invoked only because of a need to “explain away” the story once the face-value interpretation has been declared problematic a priori). How does Craig’s version of divine command compare to Ockham or Scotus? The former held that God could command anything, such that all 10 commandments were completely contingent on God’s will. The latter held that only the commandments of the second tablet were contingent on God’s will. St. Thomas, however, held that God could not command anything contrary to the commandments of either tablet. Yet all three held that God commanded the slaughter of the Amalekites justly. St. Thomas, however, held that God could not command anything contrary to the commandments of either tablet. This is true, but somewhat misleading. God, for St Thomas, decrees what he means, and means what he decrees. All of his decrees conform to the standard of his own very self. This is why God does not do things for “morally sufficient reasons” since he is not a moral agent. He is simply true to himself. However, he is Goodness itself, and therefore what he commands is always good, not merely because he decrees it to be such, but because it issues from him who alone is Good. Anyway, God can and has according to St Thomas required of persons in the past acts that, by any normal description, would violate not only the Decalogue, but natural law itself. Thomas explicitly mentions his command to Abraham to sacrifice Isaac (what would seem to be murder), his command to Hosea to take a “wife of fornications” (what would seem to be adultery), and his command to the Israelites to take the goods from the people of Egypt (what would seem to be theft). St Thomas’ reply is relevant to the present conversation (Summa theologiæ IaIIæ 94.5, ad. One of the difficulties of classification here is that St Thomas is neither really a divine command nor a virtue ethicist, even if he resembles more the latter than the former. The doctrine of divine simplicity, when coupled with the human vocation by grace to beatitude, is more fundamental to his understanding human moral action. I would also look at I-II.100.8: I answer that, As stated above (96, 6; 97,. And the reply to the 3rd objection:. This is all well and fine in theory, but the ultimate question is how can we determine what is truly God’s will? At some point you have to make a faith claim in a flawed and fallible human being (whether others or yourself) that what you perceive to be God’s will actually is. That’s where the theory breaks down. If my neighbor claims that God is asking him to offer up his dog in a burnt offering, should I believe him or try and stop him? If the former is true, am I not interfering with God’s will? But, as Dominic pointed out, this “conflict” happens regardless of the theory used. Just replace “that God is asking him to” with “is required by nature to” or “is required by virtue ethics to.” The same problems arise either way, as this isn’t a problem in moral theory specifically, really, but simply in the epistemology of Revelation. The Catholic answer is basically: If God wanted you to believe your neighbor had received a binding private revelation, He’d give YOU the efficacious grace to do so that would be stronger than any possible human motive or natural good. Otherwise, you should act according to what you already know is God’s general commandments to mankind. I don’t think Scotus, at least, is in any way, shape, or form a divine command theorist. He’s actually a pretty ordinary natural law theorist; but every natural law theorist has to consider the question of divine dispensation (with things like polygamy, etc.). Scotus differs from Aquinas largely in having a more robust theory of dispensation than Aquinas does, because he links the possibility of dispensation to the contingency of the object of the law and Aquinas doesn’t. But beyond that, his general account works very much like Aquinas’s. Thales: I tend to lean towards the anthropological view of the Old Testament expounded on by Rene Girard. I have read some Rene Girard but found his writings very difficult to read. I was told that Gil Bailie’s “Unnveiled Voilence: Humanity at the Crossroads” was a good source for Rene Girard’s ideas. The book changed the way I see Christianity and has helped my faith. Gordie You and me both, Gordie. Girard’s thinking – as mediated by popularizers like Bailie – goes a long way to untying the, forgive me, “Gordian knot” that a story like the slaughter of the Amalekites creates. THE PONTIFICAL BIBLICAL COMMISSION THE JEWISH PEOPLE AND THEIR SACRED SCRIPTURES IN THE CHRISTIAN BIBLE God Bless The whole notion that God could do or command something which is intrinsically evil (which the Church has defined genocide to be) seems contrary to the Catholic idea that the morality of acts is specified by the moral object chosen. This applies to whoever does the choosing be it human, angel, or God. God Bless “Genocide” is only intrinsically evil inasmuch as “murder” is intrinsically evil. But not all killing is murder, and not all killing of entire populations is necessarily genocide. God gives and takes life as He pleases. He will take EACH and EVERY one of OUR lives, eventually, severing the connection tween body and spirit. Sometimes He does it all at once for a given population, say in a tsunami or asteroid strike or whatever. This doesn’t make God a murderer, it makes God God. And if He has that right, surely He could delegate it by command. Whether He has or actually did in the biblical story is another question, but the principle itself is unquestionable. As pro-life people, we have often made the point that natural death by illness or accident is different than euthansia, abortion, or the death penalty. Yes, it is built into the system that everything and everyone will die. But that isn’t the same as saying that God will “take” our lives. The one thing that is impossible for God is for Him to be “not God”. If the very definition of God is that he is Love, and All-Good, then for Him to act contrary to His essence, would be for Him to deny who He is. Which is why I can’t accept that He ordered the slaughter of innocents, which the children of the Canaanites certainly were. Well, I’d put the death penalty in a THIRD category all together. Catholics must agree with the theoretical permissibility of the death penalty. We can oppose it in practice (and I do), but not in theory. But it raises an interesting example. Really, “murder” is “killing without the authority to do so.” Just like theft is actually “taking property without the authority to do so.” But God certainly has the authority, and He has given some measure of it (within the limits of a certain justice) to the State. The State can therefore kill (in executions for example), and take property (taxing, etc), without the one being “murder” or the other being “stealing.” If God Himself were to DIRECTLY give the authority (through a Revelation, public or private, either mediated by another or directly intuited by the individual) to take property, I doubt any of you would object. In fact, given your leftist socio-economic sympathies (which I share!) I think you’d find that all good and well. Well, we can’t hold a double-standard when it comes to killing. God can “authorize” that too, theoretically. No one can deny that. The questions here then really is about: how we know when it is God (as opposed to a hallucination, or a demon) revealing such an extra-ordinary command, and whether such a command actually took place in the case of the ban among the ancient Israelites. You telling God that taking life (or commanding it) is contrary to His Essence is the height of presumption, and shows a huge misunderstanding of basic theology. God is not constrained by some nature prior too or outside Himself. What God chooses to do is by definition in conformity with His nature. In some ways, God is only truly Existentialist being: He determines His essence, because His essence is His own freedom, as it were. He is not constrained by some “essence” limiting what He does. What He does is, by definition, His essence. God is also the only being who can be truly Utilitarian: God (having perfect knowledge and power) is able to act for maximizing the Good of the Whole in His Providence, even when that involves seeming privation in the individual situation. For God, causing physical evil (or permitting moral evil) may be part of the overall Good. Remember: EVERYTHING that happens is under the sovereignty of God’s Providence. As Catholic Encyclopedia says of “physical” (as opposed to moral) evil, such as death: “God is said (as in Isaiah 45) to be the author of evil in the sense that the corruption of material objects in nature is ordained by Him, as a means for carrying out the design of the universe.” And, yes, it is God who ultimately has to determine by a positive act of His will to sever the connection between body and soul for each of us. God is causing death, in the general sense of Providence at least, all the time. Whether He does so through something like the historical arrangement of natural disasters or through getting people to kill by having them hear a voice isn’t really at issue, then. A schizophrenic who “hears God” and kills, or a sinner who lets himself be seduced by demonic forces into doing so…is, in this sense, just as much “meant” to kill in the grand scheme of Providence as the Israelite army. What people seem to be objecting to here, then, is not the idea that God got some people to do something through having their leaders hear a voice or whatever (“Israel, carried away in a fit of nationalistic fervor, thinking that God was on their side, claimed that God had commanded them to commit these atrocities” would be JUST AS MUCH attributable to God’s causation in in the sense of Providence)…but that God did so according to an infallible revelatory grace that EXCUSED the participants from sin in their actions rather than Providence simply “using” sin. So is the problem really this idea: not that God arranged for deaths to happen through human agency (which Providence does all the time), but that He did so in a manner in which that killing could be called moral rather than immoral? That’s a lot more subtle an objection, though, and requires correspondingly subtler arguments… The challenge here is that “intrinsically evil” has no meaning independent of God. This is why the claim that the requirement not to do what is intrinsically evil applies even to God does not, in the end, make sense, even if it seems to do so. What makes something morally evil is that it turns the moral agent away from God (which also means turning the agent away from its own flourishing). Something would be intrinsically evil which, by its nature, could not be morally chosen. That is, for the will to chose it would require just that kind of deformity of the will which would make it, in its desires, turned against the kind of life which eternity with God is. Note, then, that the idea that God is a moral agent does not make any sense. God is pure act, he is being itself, the Good and the True. He is not directed to some thing (the good) to come to full flourishing since he is that very flourishing itself. Nothing external to him either enhances or diminishes the fulness of divinity which is God. This is why, among other reasons, we can only speak of God being true to himself (since a being who could be untrue to himself would be divided, complex, fallible, and thus not God), not being true to “the good,” and this necessarily complicates claims about what God “can” or “cannot” decree. The point is, there is no Good prior to or external to God by which we could judge even His actions. If He does it, it’s good by definition, because Good is “God’s Will.” Any other notion seems to me like the modern tendency to submit Christianity’s teachings to the scrutiny of some other system of meta-values (usually those of liberal democratic secularism) and try to force them to conform to that rather than the other way around. Let me associate myself with the views of my favorite Dominican here, which I find quite apposite. If the Supreme Category of our conception (God) is such that it contains all that anyone could ever conceive of as good, then the fact that it contains much that might not seem good, is no big deal, to put it colloquially. What this means collaterally is that there much that is evil in life, but that it is both is, and is not, part of that Supreme Category. It is not part of that category if we conceive what our good is in a limited sense. On the level of society, what else could be good but that which makes society better? On the level of ultimate things, much of what we conceive of as “evil” may be part of some vast trajectory which we cannot conceive. Similarly, the horizon that the Catholic Church adopts today, is, despite its protestations to the contrary, entirely dictated by the horizon of the Enlightenment. There is a good reason for this, for as Charles Taylor has pointed out, the basic insight of the Enlightenment comes from Christianity. (But mostly Protestant) Still the world we live in, and the societal goals we collectively espouse are entirely in the arc of this 18th Century revolution. Thus the attitude towards “life” that the Catholic Church now espouses, even proscribing Capital Punishment, is quite against the vast cumulative evidence of its past, and of course colorfully so if we take the Medieval era into account.. There is little doubt that a number of theological and canon-legal memes can be adduced to support the themes of “life” now so prevalent, But if we balance those against the nearly constant involvement of the Church in all sorts of day-to-day deaths in tis past, for one reasons or another, the current horizon it espouses is well, rather attenuated, to say the least. The giant reasons for it is simply Enlightenment thinking, though it might prefer a medieval pedigree. Theologies of the past need to be seen in this horizon. It is not that they did not discourse on death, and morality. But they did so from a vantage point which assumed them as an omnipresent and thus essentially unproblematic reality. The point is, the Enlightenment taught different goals, and the fact that the Church assumes these is proof of where they came from. (Pace innumerable Thomists) Modern realities vis-a-vis your likelihood to killed for no reason are both, ironically, a great confirmation of the value of the Enlightenment, and a grave criticism of it. Some level of depersonaliztion seems endemic to it, thus may be an aid to those quite opposed tragically to its aims. On the other hand, the hyper-theologies based on Enlightenment tropes like the hyperbolic anti-abortion crusade has taken an Enlightenment notion of “right” and turned it into a mode of pure fanaticism. A fanaticism which tragically is not even good at halting the — it must be affirmed — tragic course of abortion for some women. In light of the involvement of the Church in all sorts of death in the past, its current “life” campaigns seem, in the arc of history, very johnny-come-lately. And surely hardly reason for them to assume some high-horse of judgment. Instead, its theological parsings could be used to compassionately help also parse very difficult decisions. Instead, as per usual lately, it is more interested in working to deny its own past, than change the future. True, yet while there is no “Good” prior to or apart from God by which God is measured, there is a measure, namely God’s own divine being, which is Goodness itself. This is why we do not want to say that something is good because God declares it such (i.e. “by definition”) if we mean by that something akin to the claim that goodness is arbitrary and has no objective truth in the thing itself, as though God’s declaration comes to the thing in a kind of extrinsic way. (I don’t think this is what you mean, but I thought it a helpful clarification here.) Rather, there is such a measure, namely God’s own self, in which created things participate. So, God’s free decision to make something in a given way, to participate in his goodness just so, is at one and the same time God’s declaring it to be good and God’s proportioning the thing to an objective, but non-external, yet nonetheless non-arbitrary, standard, viz. his very self. I am a strong believer that a lot of intellectuals have no real idea where their ideas come from. They have a favored personal discourse, which is usually related an actual mentor-protege relationship they either maintain or would like to, but their roots often aresomewhere else. In the case of Mr. Craig, he is one more case of a phenomenon long noted about intellectuals in the Anglo-American sphere. For the life of them, they can’t get away from from being Hobbesians, even if they hate Hobbes. If his little theory about God not being subject to moral stricture ain’t surrepetitiously cribbed from Hobbes’ Leviathan, then I am a monkey’s uncle. For amongst those most influenced by Hobbes are religionists who would otherwise decry his conclusions. What is curious, albeit hardly unique, about Craig’s position is that it does not reflect more robust versions of the claim of God’s “not being subject to moral stricture” of the classic tradition, at least not of the Medieval (inclusive of Thomist) line of thought. Consider his following claim: God had morally sufficient reasons for His judgement upon Canaan, and Israel was merely the instrument of His justice, just as centuries later God would use the pagan nations of Assyria and Babylon to judge Israel. (emphasis mine) This way of putting it ironically understands God’s goodness to be intelligible precisely on the grounds that God can be judged in accord with some standard of goodness apart from God. By way of contrast, consider the following by Brian Davies, O.P., in his introduction to his translation and commentary on Thomas Aquinas’ De malo:. It’s interesting, isn’t it, that this is just the sort of area that tends to make medieval views, and especially Thomism, look good against some modern philosophies. To me, lover of intellectual history, there is a simple reason why. Namely because the truly ridiculous and awful idea or belief of “predestination” in its most terrible (strict Calvinist) form. This view allowed a path of conceptualization that allowed some to say that a realm of activity or even people as completely damnable per se. Very far from the encompassing arc of medieval and especially Thomistic thinking. But later then the need of governments or, by modern conception, even God (!) to be involved in such ways of being, seemed suddenly conceivable for a society that had at least partially accepted “predestination” and its cleavages. Hobbes’ grim view is very indebted to all this. It almost goes without saying that all of this was inconceivable to to medieval mind. Though it is clear that predestnatory views were hardly the whole picture for the Reformation, that they were in there at all created, to my mind, a terrible pedigree for a lot the extremes of modern thinking, and in terrible irony for many of the most godless. Thank you all for not bringing Jesus into this. What’s He got to do with it? (Kidding … just kidding) :-) Somebody cue Tina Turner… Hi, Kyle, Sorry to take so long to get to this, but I’ve been busy with other things. I think divine command theories are often more subtle than you are suggesting. Divine command theorists are distinguished from natural law theorists, for instance, not in the nature of the standard they are capable of espousing, but in what they think makes it have moral force: natural law theorists think it has moral force simply from being a promulgation of rational authority, while divine command theorists think that moral force is the limit case of the force of sanction, and thus requires an agent establishing sanctions — rewards and punishments, to put it more crudely than many divine command theorists would like. Thus, to take the classic example of divine command theory, William Warburton’s theory as put forward in his eighteenth century work, The Divine Legation of Moses: when Warburton asks whether atheists can be moral, he admits to a certain extent they can: God has given us rational perception, and thus we can perceive that some things are more rationally appropriate than others; and God has given us moral sentiments, and thus some things are in better taste than others. Thus we can have broadly moral standards even without moral obligations; but we can’t, he argues, have morality in the full and proper sense without obligations, which require an Obliger because no amount of appropriateness and good taste will ever make anything strictly obligatory. Craig has a somewhat different version, but in it’s general outline it makes the same sort of move; all sophisticated divine command theories do. This makes me think that Dominic’s point about how your suggested problem really arises for any sufficiently developed moral theory is a pretty substantial one. In the case of the couple, you certainly can reason with them: but this is not going to be denied by the divine command theorist, who, if sufficiently sophisticated, will admit as perfectly fine every argument you can propose. What the divine command theorist will deny is that this reasoning actually gives you the result you think it does: namely, he will deny that any reasoning that does not involve appeal to an obliger will actually deal with obligation, rather than something that is often, but not necessarily, associated with it. You could appeal to rational evaluations of appropriateness and to moral taste as arguments for the initial plausibility of its being obligatory or prohbited, and the divine command theorist will even be likely to admit that this assessment of initial plausibility is often right, but without appeal to divine revelation, and the signs that confirm divine revelation, you have on his view no grounds on which to say anything whatsoever about prohibition or obligation in a definite sense. Ultimately, the sort of reasoning involved in the strictest form of morality, as A Sinner notes, comes down for the divine command theorist to the same sort of reasoning by which we judge of whether Scripture is the word of God. Far from conceding that it is an act occurring beyond human experience,the divine command theorist will insist that it is natural to us as moral beings to search out and accept divine commands, although something like original sin can cause complications with it (but original sin, again, causes complications with everyone). Fair enough, but does this sophistication make much practical difference? If arguments based on moral sentiments or rational perception take one only so far, they may not even go far enough to reach the say so of the self-defined religious authority. Sure, it can look from these limited perspectives that a couple’s belief that they have to kill their children is wrong, but these appearances can’t compete with the unseen but apparently repeated divine command. Seems to me that divine command ethics can be used to justify any evil and, more to the point, leaves no room for debate or final questioning. If these parents instead made an argument based on virtue or some other philosophical concept, they could still come to the wrong conclusion, of course, but at least one could demonstrate the fallacy of their thinking or the why the ethical idea they use doesn’t lead to where they think it does. I just read Joshua 5 and 6 and nowhere did I read God verbally commanding genocide. It was Joshua who commanded that. Perhaps, but that doesn’t handle passages like I Samuel 15. In 1 Samuel 15 it is Samuel who interprets what God said. God did not speak to Saul directly. It is clear in verse 33 that Samuel’s motive is revenge, “As your sword has made women childless,so shall your mother be childless among women.” Samuel is the one who interprets it to Saul, yes; but the narrative tells us flat out God’s response to Samuel in verse 10, and it confirms Samuel’s claims. Look, obviously there are a number of options for interpretation here, but it’s simply not reasonable to pretend that the narrative doesn’t seem to say what everyone has always seen that it seems to say. The narrator tells us what Samuel heard from God. There is no pretending, there is the obvious underlying rage influencing Samuel.

At least 40% of cocaine seized at UK borders is laced with a chemical that can cause seizures, unconsciousness and death. Medicine Laced Cocaine Kills! Mama had to read the name of the news article twice. Mama thought surely they had it backwards. It must be that American cash has large amounts of blow on it. Cocaine taints about 90 percent of our money! Is this why we are in the recession? Are we After all, "there were worse drugs out there, like heroin and cocaine," he says. sometimes laced with other substances such as heroin or even crack cocaine. I just got an alert from the NYC Department of Health alerting doctors in the area to be on the lookout for life-threatening complications from cocaine laced with p-dogs - Combination of cocaine and marijuana p-dope pee wee - Crack Cocaine; $5 worth of crack premos - Marijuana joints laced with crack cocaine By Ellen Gibson. Dec. 17 (Bloomberg) -- Two-thirds of cocaine smuggled into the U.S. is laced with a cattle-worming drug linked to a rare POLICE in Leeds issued a warning about drugs dealers who are selling small amounts of cannabis laced with crack cocaine. The Trimbos Institute is distributing flyers and posters at various night clubs warning against the cocaine, which has been laced with atropine, The US Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration issued an alert recently to all health care, mental health and public health centers and Paris Hilton Powder-Laced SUV — It's NOT Cocaine. Tuesday, January 10th, 2012 | Paris Hilton · Paris Hilton foundation powder Paris Hilton was in the middle An animal antibiotic may be mixed in with the local cocaine supply, putting cocaine users at risk of life-threatening infection. The Over Eight percent of the the country's cocaine contains Levamisole. Cocaine laced with the veterinary drug levamisole just may be the culprit in a flurry of flesh A 54-year-old man who nasally ingested cocaine laced with levamisole developed widespread necrotic/purpuric skin lesions on approximately 20% of his body Is there cocaine laced in weed known as trainwreck? ChaCha Answer: Train Wreck is a really good weed from Duncan, BC. There really is A late 2009 Associated Press story out of Little Rock, Ark. reported almost a third of cocaine seized in the U.S. “is laced with a dangerous EXCLUSIVE VIDEO INTERVIEW: Charlie Sheen Smokes Joints Laced With Cocaine, Porn Star Tells All. by pokerchi on February 4, 2011. The porn star and Flesh Eating Cocaine Laced With Veterinary Drug Levamisole - ABC News · Flesh-eating cocaine reported in New York, L.A. | News To Me with ` Laced with Cocaine //; ` ` Mon Coeur S'Ouvre A Ta Voix ;* ♥ //; Archive; / Questions Are Welcomed . . / Submit Here . / Theme. it hurts to accept who i am , i Why would drug dealers be lacing their cocaine with a drug used to de-worm opossums? The MMWR paper says “the reason why levamisole is Not knowing what street cocaine has been cut or laced with is an added risk. Cocaine is extremely addictive. Even after trying cocaine one time, an individual Paris Hilton was in the middle of the buying frenzy your day following XMAS, whenever a nose-y photographer snapped a photo of the interior Paris Hilton Powder-Laced SUV — It's NOT Cocaine. Paris Hilton was in the middle of a shopping frenzy the day after XMAS, when a nose-y photographer Ever wonder what to call a cigarette laced with cocaine? Here are Top 10 street names and descriptions for drugs mixed with cigarettes. Smoke chemically altering the color of Cocaine so it looks white Cigarette laced with Crack or Cocaine; partially smoked Cannabis cigarette inserted into regular Remember Anthtrax? Terrorists were supposed to use it to kill democracy, but nothing much ever came of it all. Until now: an ER was evacuated after someone L - LSD; L.A. - long-acting amphetamine; L.A. glass - smokable methamphetamine; L.A. ice - smokable methamphetamine; L.L. - marijuana; Lace - cocaine and KATIE MOISSE Cocaine cut with the veterinary drug levamisole could be the culprit in a flurry of flesh-eating disease in New York and Los Celebrity Gossip - Paris Hilton Powder-Laced SUV -- It's NOT Cocaine. In the news today is a warning from police about marijuana laced with crack cocaine. In England, the mixture is known as Mach5 and, Lacing a cig in coke powder - smoking cocaine? Pre-Medical Allopathic [ MD ] On this day, July 28, 1990, in Miami, Maximo Menendez fell into a coma immediately after drinking a Colombian soft drink spiked with cocaine COCAINE -- DRUG SLANG DICTIONARY Red Bull, gives you wings and apparently also a high A federal agency warned this week that cocaine laced with levamisole, a veterinary anti-parasitic drug, has caused 20 cases of a serious Over one in 10 banknotes laced with cocaine in UK. A spokesman for Graham said the senator had not been informed whether FBI agents were investigating the possibility of terrorists lacing cocaine or other drugs . Paris Hilton wаѕ іn thе middle οf a shopping frenzy thе day аftеr XMAS, whеn a nose-y photographer snapped a pic οf thе interior οf hеr hybrid 90 percent of cocaine users in San Francisco found to have Levamisole in their system. Over 40 per cent of imported cocaine is laced with a drug that can cause seizures , unconsciousness and death. The user then buys the cocaine not knowing what it is laced with and the usage starts to break down the immune system. The cocaine user Paris Hilton was in the middle of a shopping frenzy the day after XMAS, when a nose-y photographer snapped a pic of the interior of her hybrid Yukon SUV 90% of US dollar bills laced with cocaine. 0 · Jacob August 17, 2009 Uncategorized. Dollar Bills If you're a junkie, you might not have to go to your dealer for a fix Cocaine users in the United States may also be ingesting a dangerous drug used to deworm horses, San Francisco health officials say. Cocaine cut with the veterinary drug levamisole could be the culprit in a flurry of flesh-eating disease in New York and Los Angeles. The drug NEARLY a third of all cocaine seized in the United States is laced with a dangerous veterinary medicine - a livestock deworming drug that Reports of serious illness and death in relation to levamisole-laced cocaine were seen last year in Canada and the USA. A study was SOUTH BOUND BROOK -- A Prospect Street woman is under arrest, accused of lacing her boyfriend's dinner with cocaine. Somerset County Levamisole used as an adulterant in cocaine has resulted in 20 confirmed or probable cases of agranulocytosis, including 2 deaths. Cocaine Laced With Flesh Eating Drug Video Abc News free website directory is a free website directory organised by Go in URL. Come and add your site for Hugs Not Drugs: Cocaine Laced With Veterinary Drug Will Rot Your Flesh. 06/24/ 2011 By Jen O. As if we didn't have enough reasons not to snort coke, studies Forensics officers inspect drums of oil which were laced with cocaine. Forensics officers inspect the drums of oil. (AFP). Map: Mackay 4740 Rarely, marijuana may be laced with other substances; accidentally using cocaine in this way could make someone test positive. However Tainted crack and cocaine laced with a chemical that can kill is surfacing in London after years of wreaking havoc in big-city Canada and the Medicine-Laced Cocaine Kills 3, Sickens More Than 100 in U.S. September 1, 2009 - Fox News (AP) Nearly a third of all cocaine seized in the COCAINE-LACED DRINKS. Angelo Mariani, a Corsican entrepreneur who had moved to Paris, made a fortune after he added cocaine to Bordeaux wine. Cocaine is sometimes mixed with methylamphetamine, methylphenidate, and ephedrine, but is usually mixed with non psychoactive Slang Terms > Crack Cocaine. () Zulu - " Bogus crack. USA - Animal drug laces a third of cocaine Miscellaneous News. Photos of Phnom Penh - More cocaine-laced chicken~ - Vancouver, BC. Cocaine Laced With Veterinary Drug Levamisole Eats Away at Flesh. June 23rd, 2011 - Posted by ABC News Paris Hilton was in the middle of a shopping frenzy the day after XMAS, when a nose-y photographer snapped a pic of the interior. Is the marijuana called 'white widow' laced with cocaine? what makes 'white widow' so strong? The KGB Agent answer: White Widow is one of Drug used to de-worm animals can rot skin off nose, ears and cheeks. Cocaine Laced With Flesh-Eating. Cocaine Laced With Veterinary Drug Levamisole Eats Away at Flesh. Slang. Marijuana laced with cocaine. Region: Western Canada. Colombian: [adj.] The most common type of marijuana on the black market.*. Crack: [n.] Slang. Is this a wide spread problem all over the world or just in the U.S? Would this crap come into Canada? levamisole is rotting peoples skin and Recent findings reveal that some laced cocaine likely contains levamisole, a veterinary drug used for de-worming livestock, that will make your cocaine · drugs · contaminated cocaine · laced cocaine · tainted drugs the government to reduce cocaine use ? i just say this because there is So who's lacing the world's cocaine with levamisole and why? "I honestly can't tell you," says Sanho Tree of the Institute for Policy Studies, According to an article published in the Journal of the American Academy of Dermatology, Levamisole-laced cocaine has been linked to Public health alert: Life-Threatening Risk -- Cocaine Laced with Levamisole. Released on: January 04, 2010, 2:41 am. Author: ADP Director Industry: Healthcare According to an April 2011 report by the U.S. Drug Enforcement Agency, 82 percent of street cocaine is laced with the veterinary drug Federal Officers Seize Cocaine-Laced Tea Bags at Kennedy Airport. Updated: Wednesday, 11 May 2011, 6:32 PM EDT Published She reported to officers that she and the victim used cocaine, possibly laced with Fentanyl, since their last contact with officers. They both went Was my weed laced with cocaine (or something else)? I know this is a noob question and is probably not the case, but I feel like my weed could have been laced You'll recall, Paris was busted in Las Vegas last year for cocaine possession. She pled guilty and was sentenced to community service. cocaine laced with ecstacy. just a little fun in the dorm room. video. Tosh.0 | Video | cocaine laced with ecstacy. Back. « previous | next » Apparently, cocaine can be easily laced with anthrax, and passed on to unsuspecting users, even by unwitting dealers. In fact, it appears that the "hit" of the Cocaine laced joints effects are they like smoking crack? Yes, but only slighty because the pot probably has more of an effect than the coke. ^^^The answer Cocaine producers have been using a new way to cut their product. It's flesh eating drug used to deworm cattle, pigs and sheep. They say as [Ibogaine] Flesh eating cocaine- Cocaine Laced With Veterinary Drug Levamisole Eats Away at Flesh. Curtis Madison crownofthorns1313 at Tulsa World: AP Stories It's called Levamisole and it can kill and sicken. It's normally used in humans to treat colon cancer but weakens the immune system. Paris Hilton was in the middle of a shopping frenzy the day after XMAS, when a nose-y photographer snapped a pic of the interior of her hybrid Yukon SUV Seven people in Alberta have developed a form of immune system suppression after consuming cocaine laced with a chemical compound, public health officials Read more about Flesh-Eating Disease Linked to Cocaine Laced with Vet Drug. TestCountry Blog pages contain many health related issues Cocaine Laced With Veterinary Drug Levamisole Eats Away at Flesh By KATIE Cocaine cut with the veterinary drug levamisole could Tainted cocaine has surfaced in the U.S., with 80 percent of the supply laced with a veterinary dewormer that causes flesh to rot. Levamisole-Laced Cocaine Most of the crack/cocaine that is currently available in North America contains levamisole. Levamisole is a toxic Recent findings reveal that some laced cocaine likely contains levamisole, a veterinary drug used for de-worming livestock, that will make your flesh rot off. State health officials are warning drug programs across California to be on the lookout for cocaine laced with a pet de-worming drug that can cocaine laced with levamisole. by midnight1 (not verified), May 01, 2010, 12: 52pm. Can the symptoms ever be misread as mononucleosis ? Paris Hilton was in the middle of a shopping frenzy the day after XMAS, when a nose-y photographer snapped a pic of the inter Lindsay Lohan can't afford court ordered psychological help and doesn't have time for community service because she's working on her career. LOS ANGELES (KTLA) -- Two men were arrested at LAX last week after officers found cocaine-laced ropes in their backpacks, officials said. marijuana laced with cocaine How to roll a blunt perfect: Song aquamain aladdin remix wiz khalfia waka flocka 2011 marijuana laced with cocaine That cocaine has been laced, or “cut,” with fillers has been a well-known fact for decades. Dealers of the illegal drug use fillers routinely to bulk Smuggler jailed after death of taxi driver who innocently drank rum. Paris Hilton was in the middle of a shopping frenzy the day after XMAS, when a nose-y photographer snapped a pic of the interior of her hybrid 90% of U.S. Currency Laced With Cocaine. getmoney. Reports- The Scientific American. "Cocaine is a powerfully addictive stimulant and one Baby Found Dead at TSTC dorms Soif it walks like a goat, talks like a goat and looks like a goat.why the hell would you call it anything else One of the dangers of smoking marijuana is the possibility that it has been laced with another, more dangerous substance such as cocaine, Tags: 1980, cocaine, David Chapelle, dermatology, Dirt Nasty, flesh-eating virus, HIV, Idiots, laced cocaine, levamisole, pain, rotting flesh, tainted coke, white Marijuana laced with cocaine and PCP. African black. Marijuana. Jive. Marijuana; heroin; drugs. African bush. Marijuana. Jive stick. Marijuana. African woodbine Who would have thought my mom, hooked to her apple computer and iPod, would send me an email with a Huffington Post link about Spain's cocaine air? When individual users lace marijuana, they may sprinkle powdered cocaine or crack into a joint or blunt, combining the stimulant effects of 80 percent of the street cocaine in the U.S. and Canada is cut with a sizable areas of dead skin after using cocaine laced with levamisole. Links shared publicly online related to Flesh Eating Cocaine Laced With Veterinary Drug Levamisole - ABC News. Los Angeles Times: Drug trafficking on the rise through Ecuador. An Ecuadorean police officer guards containers of cocaine-laced molasses. Feeding a young child Coke—Coca Cola, that is—is harmful enough. But an upstate New York mother took abuse a step further. She fed her The report shows he was taking a number of prescription drugs at the time of his death. Revenge Laced Cocaine. (1/8) > >>. Klemma: This is me and Purple's Epic win movie pitch. Premise: A loose cannon from the wrong side of the tracks(Purple), Over one in every 10 banknotes in circulation in UK are contaminated with cocaine, police drug experts have said. Red Bull Energy Drink Laced With Cocaine? Coca Leaf Extract Used to Flavor Red Bull's Cola Drink. posted by; Adrian Slew; on; June 9, 2009 - 6:28pm Originally marketed as a health drink, Coca Cola was said to cure everything from migraine (aka "sick headache") to depression. And no wonder -- for its fi. WTF???? Amy Winehouse Reportedly Eats CANDY-LACED COCAINE! HUEmanbro. Dayum that bitch is nothing but a druggy! I bet she has cocaine skittles! Eighty-two percent of seized cocaine contains levamisole, according to an April 2011 report by the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration. Why dealers would Banano, Marijuana or tobacco cigarettes laced with cocaine. Barbs, Cocaine Candy sticks, Marijuana cigarettes laced with powdered cocaine. Candy sugar [Archive] Cocaine Laced With Veterinary Drug Levamisole Eats Away at Flesh The NF Café. It's called - Greek (marijuana combined with powder cocaine). Have a great How do you fix a cocaine hangover? After using cocaine, you may feel very tired and Dance in the sea of infinite sadness Sleep in the arms of spider webs Laugh inside harmonous Caverns Filled with poison made to ebb Cry on the shoulder of 6 Feb 2010 extended a warning after reporting that two adults were hospitalized with an illness allegedly caused by cocaine laced with a veterinary drug. It is also worth noting that the cocaine-laced air is not representative of the city as a whole. According to the same scientists, the cocaine Hugs Not Drugs: Cocaine Laced With Veterinary Drug Will Rot Your Flesh. As if we didn't have enough reasons not to snort coke, studies Links shared publicly online related to Cocaine Laced With Flesh-Eating Drug | Video - ABC News. Paris Hilton Powder-Laced SUV It's NOT Cocaine. Paris Hilton foundation powder Paris Hilton was in the middle of a shopping frenzy the day candy sticks - Marijuana cigarettes laced with powdered cocaine candy sugar - Powder cocaine candy-flipping - LSD mixed with ecstasy candyman - Drug Alice B. Toklas - A woman known for her use of marijuana as an ingredient in her brownie recipe; marijuana-laced brownie. All-American - Cocaine. All Lit Up Cocaine cut with the veterinary drug levamisole could be the culprit in a flurry of flesh-eating disease in New York and Los Angeles. The drug, used to deworm The serious side effects of cocaine laced with a veterinary drug has prompted a nationwide health alert. The U.S. Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Is the marijuana called white widow laced with cocaine what. Lacing is the act of secretly adding one or more substances to another. Some street drugs are Ask a doctor about weed laced with cocaine itch, symptoms, diagnosis, treatment, questions and answers, health articles, doctors, health tips about weed laced Lascell Malcolm, 63, had been handed the bottle of Bounty Rum by a friend, Antoinette Corlis, after refusing to take payment for a lift home after WHY GREAT GRANDMA HAD SUCH A HAPPY CHILDHOOD! - COCAINE LACED MEDICINE! WHY GREAT GRANDMA HAD SUCH A HAPPY CHILDHOOD! Tainted crack and cocaine laced with a chemical that can kill is surfacing in London after years of wreaking havoc in big-city Canada and the U.S.. A nurse with By Thomas Watkins Associated Press LOS ANGELES Cocaine cut with a livestock de-worming medication is causing severe skin reactions in 90 percent of U.S. money is laced with cocaine. Forget the weed, I`m going for the other green stuff, my dollar bills. Most of the cocaine in the United States is contaminated by an flesh eating condition, are thought to have ingested levamisol-laced cocaine. Gerry Ryan's cocaine was laced with worming powder: Gerry Ryan's autopsy report showed that cocaine he has consumed contained trace You should really stop doing cocaine. Not because it's addictive, or anything, but because it's likely laced with levamisole, a veterinary drug Pierre Plourde, the authority's medical officer of health, said it appears the patients took cocaine laced with levamisole, a drug used by Cocaine users may be snorting a flesh-eating drug; 82 percent of street cocaine is laced with a veterinary drug used to deworm animals, Home » Entertainment » Paris Hilton: Powder-Laced SUV NOT Cocaine. Click To Enlarge. Paris Hilton: Powder-Laced SUV NOT Cocaine Paris Hilton Powder-Laced SUV — It's NOT Cocaine. Paris Hilton was in the middle of a shopping frenzy the day after XMAS, when a nose-y HIGHLY dangerous batches of cocaine and ecstasy pills have hit the Australian market, with drug experts and police warning they had been Men accused of smuggling cocaine-laced ropes into LAX. By Brian Day on March 23, 2011 4:55 PM | Permalink | Comments (0) |. From City News Service: Study finds traces of cocaine on U.S. money have gone up. Laboratory tests revealed a large shipment of brown sugar had been laced with cocaine. Investigative teams are still testing the sugar, which Traces of cocaine taint up to 90 percent of paper money in the United States, a new study finds. A group of scientists tested banknotes from [Archive] Lacing a cig in coke powder - smoking cocaine? Pre-Medical Allopathic [ MD ] Not to many people snorting Cocaine are worried about bacteria. They are more worried about "Rusty Pipes" and blowing a "Hole" and the This is a sad, sad story. There are so many things that I can't understand about this story but I'm getting ahead of myself. A woman was breastfeeding her 5 Police say the man is OK, but 29-year-old Monica Cookman is behind bars. A study commissioned by the Spanish government to monitor that country's air quality has reported what most European travelers already There are a variety of different types of cocaine street drug Necrotizing peripheral vasculitis/vasculopathy following the use of cocaine laced with levamisole. Journal of burn care & research : official publication of the Our theory: people heard about levamisole-laced cocaine and its flesh-rotting side effects and decided to abuse other drugs. Anyway, if you Cocaine (blow, coke, snow, white, insert your favourite term here) is a integrated media campaign on Levamisole-laced cocaine and crack. Paris Hilton Powder-Laced SUV — It's NOT Cocaine. Posted by TMZ Staff. Paris Hilton was in the middle of a shopping frenzy the day after Drug used to de-worm animals can rot skin off nose, ears and cheeks. Houston Details Drug Use: 'We Laced Marijuana With Rock Cocaine' | Whitney Houston Has Detailed How Far Her Drug Taking Went At The Nearly a third of all cocaine seized in the United States is laced with a dangerous veterinary medicine that has been blamed in at least three deaths and scores Posts tagged 'cocaine-laced'. German states ban cocaine-laced Red Bull. The energy Tags: ban, cocaine-laced, German, Red Bull, states Breaking News - Botox-laced cocaine surfaces in Hollywood: Who's talking and who's not! by dagnabbit. Share this and make someone smile! Share Paris Hilton was in the middle of a shopping frenzy the day after XMAS, when a nose-y photographer snapped a pic of the interior of her. Whenever I cook dinner for my husband, I always make sure to add the same obscure, unconventional ingredient in every dish: Love. Cocktail - cigarette laced with cocaine or crack; partially smoked marijuana cigarette inserted in regular cigarette. Cocoa puff - to smoke cocaine and marijuana Now a case study in the Journal of the American Academy of Dermatology confirmed that a version of levamisole-laced cocaine is loose in the Cocaine Laced With Veterinary Drug Levamisole Eats Away at Flesh. PHOTO: The veterinary drug can rot the flesh of the nose and ears. abcdm.abccom.Player. The amounts of cocaine found on U.S. bills ranged from .006 micrograms ( several thousands of times smaller than a single grain of sand) to more than 1240 We bought cocaine, heroin, crack, weed, and ecstasy and had them seeing more examples of marijuana laced with other drugs, like cocaine, a narcotic; LSD , Drug Slang Dictionary - Cocaine: drug slang dictionary slang Cocaine cut with the veterinary drug, levamisole has apparently been linked to a . Works to create an integrated media campaign on Levamisole-laced cocaine Traces of cocaine taint up to 90 percent of paper money in the United States, a new study finds. Most U.S. Money Laced With Cocaine - Yahoo! One of the myths linked to cocaine is the idea that it works as a sexual stimulant. Cocaine is . The suspicion is that it has been laced with speed and LSD. The Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration (SAMHSA) is alerting medical professionals, substance abuse treatment Study: Ohio River laced with cocaine, transexual fish. [No, this isn't about the Louisville-Southern Indiana Bridges Authority — but you'd be yeah, slightly misleading with the cocaine headline. Its cocaine laced because its coca leaves. not because its tea with cocaine hidden on them Open questions on Yahoo! Answers. Post an answer to an open question Two-thirds of cocaine smuggled into the U.S. is laced with a cattle-worming drug linked to a rare immune disorder in a rash of cases, a report Bambalacha, Marijuana. Bammies, A poor quality of marijuana. Bammy, Marijuana. Banano, Marijuana or tobacco cigarettes laced with cocaine. Bar, Marijuana It seems cocaine has been behind a rash of flesh-eating disease An example of the potential effects of levamisole-laced cocaine (from the That means that cocaine available on the street has been laced at least 5 times. Assuming that the cocaine is 99% pure to begin with, each step is cutting in how many grams is an ounce of cocaine and how much does it cost in mexico. oxycodode for cocain comedown. nick brushett cocaine. cocaine laced with Cocaine [laced with] levamisole eats Flesh! 29 Jun. Levamisole_Structural_Formulae: Image via Wikipedia. Save your Flesh, stop taking this Poison! It seems Cocaine Laced With Veterinary Drug Levamisole Eats Away at Flesh Cocaine cut with the veterinary drug levamisole could be the culprit in a Experiences - Noticable increase in laced cocaine? Cocaine & Crack. Banano, Marijuana or tobacco cigarettes laced with cocaine. Basuco (Spanish), Cocaine; Coca paste residue sprinkled on regular or marijuna cigarette Use of cocaine laced street drug= Agranulocytosis. by Aric Thorpe MHR on January 4, 2010. The Centers for Disease Control have confirmed cases of Health officials have stepped up their efforts to call attention to health risks caused by cocaine laced with levamisole, a veterinary anti-parasitic Aunt Nora, Cocaine. Balling, Vaginally implanted cocaine. Banano, Marijuana or tobacco cigarettes laced with cocaine. Barbs, Cocaine. Basa, Crack cocaine Cocaine laced with levamisole causing skin of users to rot off. Jay-Z to Donate Concert Funds to NY PoliceAfter releasing his 11th CD on Sept. 11, Jay-Z will give a benefit concert and donate all of. Over one in 10 banknotes laced with cocaine in UK London, Dec 2: Over one in every 10 banknotes in circulation in UK are contaminated with drug meth crack online alcohol oxycontin resources The presence of levamisole, considered to be a dangerous substance by most has been found in California raising worries for the drug and alcohol programs. Cocaine Laced With Veterinary Drug Levamisole Eats Away at Flesh By KATIE MOISSE 6/23/11, 7:34 AM Cocaine cut with the veterinary drug levamisole could Kind of humorous to think that there is more intrinsic value in traces of drugs on greenbacks than there is in the paper. Hat tip to my good friend White widow is a highly potent strain of marijuana. Black widow is also a similar strain. When cocaine is mixed in it is commonly by the person using An invigorating beverage at a very competitive price. Tainted cocaine causing deaths? City police told that laced cocaine is causing illness, possibly at least two deaths. (PETERBOROUGH) City African American culture and community news at AOL Blackvoices. African American family. there seems to be a "flesh rotting" theme going on in the media lately. LITTLE ROCK, Ark. — Nearly a third of all cocaine seized in the United States is laced with a dangerous veterinary medicine — a livestock banano, marijuana or tobacco cigarettes laced with cocaine. bazooka, coca paste and marijuana. blow a stick, smoke marijuana. Budda, potent marijuana Slang and Street Terms used for Cocaine. Cocktail - cigarette laced with cocaine or crack; Coconut; Coke - cocaine; crack; Cola; Coolie - cigarette laced with Paris Hilton Powder-Laced SUV -- It's Not Cocaine. 29 December 2011 12:50 AM , PST | TMZ | See recent TMZ news ». Paris Hilton was in the middle of a There is nothing like getting ready for a holiday while celebrating another holiday but it also draws the attention of immigration and custom\\\'s Paris Hilton Powder-Laced SUV — It's NOT Cocaine. January 11th, 2012 admin. Paris Hilton foundation powder Paris Hilton was in the middle of a shopping A taxi driver from Haringey was killed last year after unwittingly drinking a deadly mixture of rum laced with cocaine, a Croydon court has heard. The Winnipeg Regional Health Authority has issued a warning after two adults were hospitalized with an illness likely caused by cocaine laced Cocaine Laced with Veterinary Drug Eats Away at Flesh. (NEW YORK) — Cocaine mixed with the veterinary drug levamisole could be the Medicine-Laced Cocaine Kills 2, Sickens. by Health News on Tuesday, September 1, 2009 at 4:16am. Nearly a third of all cocaine seized in the United States Cocaine Laced With Veterinary Drug Levamisole Eats Away at Flesh By KATIE MOISSE 6/23/11, 7:34 AM Cocaine cut with the veterinary drug Paris Hilton article on Paris Hilton Powder-Laced SUV -- It's NOT Cocaine. Cocaine cut with the veterinary drug levamisole could be the culprit in a flurry of flesh-eating disease in New York and Los Angeles.The drug THE widow of an innocent man who dropped dead after unwittingly drinking liquid cocaine disguised as rum has lashed out at the evil of Cocaine is produced as a white chunky powder. It is sold most Sniff the air in Barcelona or Madrid, scientists say, and you'll inhale not only carbon dioxide but possibly cocaine too. Paris' Powder-Laced SUV -- It's NOT Cocaine. 4250_thumb. PREVIOUS GALLERY · TMZ's Funny Baby Face Contest · 4247_thumb. NEXT GALLERY · Katy and Cocaine Effects: Cocaine Laced With Veterinary Drug Eats Away at Flesh - KESQ News So it might be added to enhance or extend the cocaine's euphoric effect. A new study has found the air in Madrid and Barcelona is also laced with large amounts of drugs - most prominently cocaine. Cocaine's a hell of a drug, and even more so when laced with another drug that's commonly used to deworm opossums. Federal agents have So Fly N Sweet (Ft. Laced & J.Squezz) by Young Cocaine Rico Of Bay-Ville ENT: Listen to, download, play and stream the song, So Fly N Sweet (Ft. Laced Cadillac cocaine, PCP. Cafeteria-style use using a combination of different club drugs. Candy sticks marijuana cigarettes laced with powdered cocaine Combination of cocaine and marijuana rolled into a joint. AKA- Coco Puff. A dirty joint is a joint laced cocaine. sponsor this word buy dirty joint mugs & shirts Cocaine laced oil seized in Australia arrested about 14 people, involved in illegal transportation of cocaine from South America to Australia. That cocaine has been laced, or “cut,” with fillers has been a well-known fact for decades. Dealers of the illegal drug use fillers routinely to June 24, 2011: Disturbing research has revealed the majority of cocaine on US streets is laced with an animal substance which causes users Fentanyl is a strong painkiller and when misused it is very dangerous and even deadly. However when laced with cocaine, heroin or other drugs individuals are U.S. researchers have discovered cocaine cut with levamisole -- a drug used to Coke laced with deworming drug causes skin decay: Study Crack cocaine combined with PCP is sometimes called tragic magic. Marijuana laced with PCP is called love boat, killer weed, or crystal supergrass. Nationwide Public Health Alert Issued Concerning Life-Threatening Risk Posed by Cocaine Laced with Veterinary Anti-Parasite Drug Treatment of levamisole-induced purpura involves discontinuation of the drug ( i.e. levamisole-laced cocaine). The role of systemic steroids in hastening This population is heavily biased in favor of those who used laced cocaine. Thus the 90% figure is off, but there is no telling by how much This Health Advisory highlights levamisole-contaminated cocaine as a growing problem in the Laced cocaine causing skin necrosis and marrow suppression. that is called lacing. Lacing of street drugs is common, and the person taking the drug never knows whether the drug is laced. Cocaine is often laced with PHOTO: What Is Happening To Cocaine Users. An example of the potential effects of levamisole-laced cocaine (from the AP) Nearly a third of all cocaine seized in the United States is laced with a dangerous veterinary medicine — a livestock de-worming drug that might paranoid cow Hugs Not Drugs: Cocaine Laced With Veterinary Drug Will Rot Your Flesh. I'll have what Paranoid COKE COW is having. Flesh Eating Laced Cocaine on the Streets It makes your skin rot. The cocaine is cut with levamisole, a veterinary drug used for deworming Cocaine smuggler jailed for 20 years after drug-laced rum killed drinker. Tragic chain of events led Lascell Malcolm to die after drinking shot Users typically cover marijuana with powdered cocaine before rolling it into cigarettes, often referred to as dirties. Cocaine-laced marijuana has become so Paris Hilton was in the middle of a shopping frenzy the day after XMAS, when a nose-y photographer s See the blurb below to give you a little better idea of what a cocaine laced joint actually doesif anything, it's just exposing you to harmful chemicals rather than flame cooking - Smoking cocaine base by putting the pipe over a stove flame flamethrowers - Cigarette laced with cocaine and heroin; heroin, cocaine and Doctors say the cocaine hitting the streets in New York and Los dead skin after snorting or smoking cocaine laced with the drug levamisole. SALT LAKE CITY - Narcolics officers are trying to trace the source of cocaine laced with cyanide that killed one drug user and may be responsible for causing Cocaine Laced With Veterinary Drug Levamisole Eats Away at Flesh across usa. Submitted by Quest-News-Serv on Fri, 06/24/2011 - 23:03. White dust under the nose is no longer the only sign that someone's a cocaine user -- they might be losing flesh. Cocaine cut with a veterinary eighty percent of cocaine is currently laced with a drug that can cause your ears, nose, and cheeks to rot off. I don't know why in God's name Levamisole has become the most famous cutting agent in buffed cocaine. It has drawn attention from the health sectors and medical institutions 18 Responses to Red Bull Is Laced With Cocaine? by We've Got Bush on June 1, 2009 at 2:42 pm. that's awesome… what's with the softball In the new report, the doctors concluded, based on the women's symptoms, that cocaine laced with levamisole cannot only cause problems it was a safer era to be a drug addict.. for all you party animals out there..and you KNOW who YOU are..next time someone at a party offers you Entire U.S. Supply Affected. Flesh-Eating Cocaine Back in the Spotlight. A study in the Journal of the American Academy of Dermatology found Byline: EMILY NASH AT least 40% of cocaine seized at UK borders is laced with a chemical | Article from The Mirror (London, England) Necrotizing Peripheral Vasculitis/Vasculopathy Following the Use of Cocaine Laced With Levamisole. MedLine Citation: PMID: 22138808 Puerto Rico resident charged with importing candy laced with cocaine on flight to Fort Lauderdale. MIAMI - An 18-year-old Puerto Rican man Chronic has two different definitions varying on your location. East Coast: Weed ( Marijuana) that is laced with Cocaine to give an added effect. West Coast: The As much as 70 percent of cocaine in the U.S. may be contaminated with levamisole, the drug used to de-worm animals, which causes users' This shit is so good it must be laced with cocaine. A @kulor favourite I believe.

inin Porta Venezia - Corso Buenos Aires bölgesinde yer alan Hotel Galles Milan, ailelere yönelik bir otel olup, yakınında Porta Venezia, Halk Bahçeleri ve Grattacielo Pirelli bulunur. Ayrıca yakınında Milano Katedrali ve Sempione Parkı yer alır. Otel Özellikleri. Hotel Galles Milan tesisinde kapalı snack bar/şarküteri vardır. Ek ücret karşılığında alana park etme imkanı sunulur. Konuk odaları: Hotel Galles Milan tesisindeki klimalı 198 konuk odasında şu olanaklar sunulur: minibar ve kasa. Televizyonlarda kaliteli uydu kanallar ve film kiralama bulunur. Odalarda kablosuz Internet erişimi Galles Milan.tüm Milan otellerini göster "MUTLU GİRİŞ VE MUTLU AYRILIŞ" GİRİŞ BÖLÜMÜNDE YAPTIM "A good location" The hotel is very well located, just next to Lima metro station on Red line and 20 minutes walk to Doumo. The rooms, however, are small and AC works (?) with a disturbing sound. Breakfast and service is good. "Overnight in Milan" Nice spacious room, comfortable bed and great power shower. Not too far to walk from the station and about 20-30 minute walk into the centre. If you don't fancy walking the hotel is right next to a metro station. Good selection at breakfast. Nice spa facilities but be aware that changing facilities are limited and mixed (two cubicles available). "Hotel Galles Best Western Milan" NOT CHILD-FRIENDLY The hotel claims to be family friendly. They also advertised it on the TV in the lobby. However, a few points seem to be contrary to this claim. Firstly, there was no children's TV channel. Secondly, despite our early request for two connecting rooms due to having young children, we were given upon arrival rooms that weren't even […] in the same corridor. Thirdly, their TV in the lobby advertised Play Stations and games for the children, when we asked reception for this service, they said it had to be reserved in advance as there were only certain rooms that had them. How then is it possible NOT to reserve connecting rooms, but it is possible to reserve rooms with play stations in advance? KEYS Another highly inconvenient situation was that, EVERY SINGLE TIME we left our rooms for our daily activities and came back at the end of the day, our keys did not work. We had to go back down to the reception each time for them to re-program our keys. When asked why this happened, they could only respond that it was "strange" that we "appeared not to be checked in" on their system. No initiative on their part was taken to rectify this until I expressed my extreme dissatisfaction towards the end of the stay (we stayed 5 nights) when they gave us "emergency keys." FOOD Lastly, the food was far from satisfactory, a very far cry from what mediterranean food is supposed to be like. Upon arrival on the first day, we decided to eat at the hotel because we had arrived mid-afternoon and weren't sure restaurants would be open. The pizzas we ordered were frozen pizzas (low quality at that), and the seafood my husband ordered was overcooked and tasteless. When I asked them whether their french fries (chips) were home-made, made from fresh potatoes, they responded yes...but again, they were frozen fries. In all fairness, we ordered soups on our very last day, and they were good. LOCATION This is the only positive point of the hotel in our view. It was right next to a met Devamı "Hotel itself is only OK, but the staff is 5-star" My daughter and I stayed here 3 nights for a shopping trip in Milan. The location of the hotel is great if you want to shop both the practical shops of Corso Buenos Aires and also the pricier shops in the center. There is a metro stop just outside the front of the hotel that also stops at every major shopping area from there until the city center. The […] room our first night was dreadful. It was very, very small and crowded even for just the two of us and the temperature in the room was around 26 degrees and it felt like a sauna. We were on the street side and our room was just below the restaurant, which meant sleeping in a very noisy sauna. Note: It was still too early in the year for the AirCo so this was not the fault of the hotel, but the room itself was extra uncomfortable. We asked the next morning to change rooms and this was done very quickly and we were shown a much nicer garden room that was a bit bigger and more comfortable. Even with the AirCo not working, the room temperature was also a lot more reasonable and the noise was much less. The staff was quick to remedy the situation. The restaurant in the hotel (in terms of food) is average, although the staff was very friendly and the service was good. We had the best time at the bar downstairs with Max, the bartender. After a long day of shopping he was quick with drinks including virgin cocktails for my 14-year old daughter and some snacks to refuel. We ended up going there each night because it was fun and comfortable and the service was good. We tried the pool / sauna / steam room one evening and it was also average. The pool was much smaller than I thought from the photos so with a few people it was crowded. There was no attendant to give us towels so we had to search for some. The lockers in the changing room were missing keys. The surrounding area is great for shopping, but near the hotel we struggled to find any good restaurants, but perhaps we were just going down the wrong streets. We could only fin Devamı "Horrible room" Horrible bed, worst shower ever and poor breakfast. In all expensive and poor quality. B.West hotels never suprises - it's never worth the money! "Nice clean hotel - what you expect for a 4 star" Great big bed, central location. Overall good. Large breakfast selection. "Solid place in a decent location" This hotel is literally right on top of the metro. You're only a few stops from the duomo. It's a quick trip. If you're coming from the main train station by metro, you will have to transfer to the red line. It's about a mile walk to the station. The hotel is right on bustling Via Buenos Aires, which is a popular shopping street. Restaurants are within […] blocks. We had a triple room, which was a little small and outdated as far as decor, but those are minor complaints. The breakfast spread at the terrace restaurant is pretty good. There are lots of options for everyone. Even though the coffee is from the machine, it's still pretty good. The coffee machines have about a dozen style options. I didn't make it to the gym or pool. There's a nice bar on the ground floor. Wi fi worked fine. All in all, we were pretty satisfied. Devamı "Hotel Galles Milan - a decent hotel" The Galles offers a fair service at a fair price. Rooms were of a decent size and very clean, bathrooms reasonable and hotel facilities more than adequate. Lima metro station is right outside. "Its in the center of Milan and very ideal for shop" I would like to recommend this hotel to anyone visiting Milan. The staff and service was just excellent.... Thank you Claudio for excellent front desk service, thanks Siwa for the great reception at the door and thanks Max for the splendid cocktails and exquisite bar service.... Definately will visit again Bu konuk bir yorum yazmadı. "A home away from home in Milan!" I loved this hotel! Wonderful and super helpful staff; the location is great; the rooms are comfortable and clean. I will definitely look to stay there again upon my return to Milan. "Hotel Galles Milan Piazza Lima 2" Awesome!!! Nice, clean, quite room, close to public transportation. Great, friendly staff...highly recommend this. "Beautiful Hotel but Poor Restaurant" I picked this hotel because it had a pool which was very nice! They need water in the gym though. The room was beautiful and had all the features we were looking for. Service was excellent. Except that the restaurant was terrible... Terrible food. Do not eat in the restaurant., The pesto dish I had was too oily, salt and uncooked. They might want to […] review their menu choices and turn down the lights in the restaurant. The bar was very over priced. It would have been nice to have some wine & sparkling wine choices around 15 euros. Just suggestions. For future, I would rather stay in an Italian hotel because at least the restaurant would likely be better. Overall though we were happy with our stay but I found better value as previous hotels we visited during our trip. Devamı Great location as it was right next to the subway and the great shopping on the street. "Very pleasant hotel with a convenient location" I stayed in this hotel for a 2 nights just for a city brake. I had a vey nice impressions from beeing a guest here. The hotel is very convenient located at Pizza Lima with acces to metro station and a short walk to main train station. There is also one of the main shopping streets ( Corso Buenos Aires) just around the corner. Large selection of food […] at breakfast, helpful staff overall worth to recommend! Devamı "Galles, Milan" Bu konuk bir yorum yazmadı. Bu konuk bir yorum yazmadı. "Well-situated and worth the money" The Galles is only a short walk away from the main train station, in a neighborhood that's active during the day and on a major boulevard so that it remains calm and safe into the late evening. The entrance to the metro station is literally outside the front door, so that it's very easy to get to the Duomo, Palace and most other sights. Beyond that, […] the walk down the main boulevard gets you to the edge of the old town in minutes, on a route that passes many designer shops. The beds were comfortable and you could hear the metro trains rumble underneath the building, but it was so gentle that you might think it's the air conditioning turning on instead. The rooms are a bit cramped, with only room to walk around the bed and lay out one suitcase. Wifi internet works well, but the codes they give are locked to one computer, so if you're a couple with separate computers, be sure to request two codes. Also note that they have a filter that blocks any content deemed "adult" -- for us this blocked a comedy group's website. We did not try the fitness room or sauna, since they were being renovated. The staff is competent -- we heard them speak English, Spanish, French and German with clients. Breakfast is very generous and a mix of sweet and savory items (a rarity among the sweet breakfasts in Italy). The breakfast room is on the top floor of the building, giving you pleasant views of the city as well. Devamı "Small and Shower clogs up" the only reason I chose this one was the sauna/steam room spa to relax. When I got there, is it closed for renovation. I checked in to a small room, when i checked out, they had a different name listed - shady. "GREAT hotel in Milan!" 4 star hotel, 4 star service! Exceptional breakfast! "Hotel Galles was conveniently located" The hotel was a convenient location. There were 2 computers with internet access at no charge. The room was small but very clean. "Great Location ... but" This is my 5th stay at this hotel and probably they last one. The room was small, the corridor was very noisy in the morning, there was an alarm system bill inside the room that went off many times during my last night of stay. Nevertheless, the location is excellent and the breakfast is rich. Bu konuk bir yorum yazmadı. "milan 2009" excellent reception from staff,they were so helpfull with everything. i would stay there again but would like a bigger bedroom "fantastic roof terrace" great hotel, fantastic roof terrace, rooms clean, great location, staff friendly, breakfast good. "poor location" poor location and very small rooms "Worth the money" The hotel desk persons were very friendly and helpful. The location was near Metro, adn getting to the Centro was easy. The hotel room was clean, neat, and comfortable. The bathroom was a little tight, but all was fine with us. "Great Experience" Lovely hotel, well situated with easy access to the city (Metro just in front of the hotel). Lovely room, very friendly and helpful staff and the buffet breakfast was great. Bu konuk bir yorum yazmadı. "Metro vicina" Bu konuk bir yorum yazmadı. "Zweckmässig, aber wenig Charme" Ein zweckmässiges Hotel, gutes Preis-Leistungs-Verhältnis, gute Lage, ideal als Ausgangspunkt um die Stadt kulturell und modemässig zu erkunden. Kaum Charme, wenig Gastfreundschaft und ein schales Gefühl von Austauschbarkeit. "Anbefalt hotell !" Grei beliggenhet, kjekke butikker og Metro-stasjon rett utenfor døra. God service og bra rom. Hotellet har masse fasiliteter. Mange restauranter og små-barer i gatene rundt hotellet. Ett minus var kaoset i frokost-salen, når "alle" skal ha frokost samtidig, og frokost-bordet var organisert for å se fint ut, ikke godt funksjonsmessig. Men frokosten hadde […] stort utvalg og smakte godt ! Devamı Bu konuk bir yorum yazmadı. "Ej fungerande ac och wifi" Ej fungerande ac vilket gjorde det svårt att sova i värmen , fönstret gick ej att ha öppet pga biltrafik och sirener från utryckningsfordon hela natten . wifi fungerade endast nån timme första kvällen. Annars tyckte vi det mesta var ok . "Hotel Galles Milan" Mycket bra hotel med promenadväg till Centrum som kantas av butiker. Det finns bra restauranger i området runt hotellet. Bra frukost med brett utbud. "Perfekt für einen Kurzurlaub" Das Hotel liegt nur wenige Minuten vom Bahnhof entfernt und man erreicht alles bequem zu Fuss. Auf dem Hoteldach hat man einen herrlichen Blick über die Stadt. Preis/Leistung stimmt hier! "Anbefales!" Fint hotell med meget bra beliggenhet. Hyggelig og serviceinnstilt personale. God frokost. Rent og pent! "Hotell Galles - nära shopping" Rent och fräscht men aningen trångt rum. Det är gammeldags italiensk stil med marmor, körsbärsträ och gul/guld-färgad inredning. Trevlig och hjälpsam personal. Nära till shopping. Jag bodde på våning 1 och hörde t-banan bullra förbi mellan 06:00-01:00 vilket var lite störande men bo högre upp så störs du säkert inte. Helt ok frukostbuffé. "Очень удобное расположение." Удобное расположение отеля. На торговой улице Corso Buenos Aires возле метро Lima . На этой улице располагаются очень много магазинов таких как Zara, Calvin Klain, Guess, Benetton. Несколько торговых центров. На такси до Дуомо максимум 15€. Пешком до вокзала можно дойти за 10 минут. На такси 10€. В 5 минутах супермаркет, где можно купить любые продукты, […] воду, пиво, вино. Много кафешек. Devamı "Das Hoel Galles Milan liegt an der berühmten bueno" Bu konuk bir yorum yazmadı. "Hotell Galles Milano" Bra på alla sätt , men borde vara tydligare med att en deposition tas ut vid incheckning, vi hade problem med aircondition sade till ett par ggr men dom brydde sig inte men annars var det bra "Hotel Galles Milano" Bu konuk bir yorum yazmadı. "hotel galles milan" trés bon rapport qualité prix, bien placé, chambre aux mobilier un peut vieux mais une literie confortable et propre par contre le portier est très désagréable . Bu konuk bir yorum yazmadı. "Pent hotell midt i shopping gaten corso b. aires" Hadde en god opplevelse under dette oppholdet. God service og hjelp underveis fra de ansatte og generelt pent hotell med bra rengjøring. Veldig god frokost med et godt utvalg av mat, både varm og kaldretter. De var også veldig hjelpsomme med å finne aktiviteter for oss og gjorde oppholdet veldig koselig. Det finnes også en spa avdeling som er nyoppusset […] og så helt herlig ut. Dette hotelle var IKKE en skuffelse. Devamı "Attention à la chambre 121" J'ai dit attention à la chambre 121 car le coffre fort de la chambre ne marche pas la lumiere de la salle de bain ne s'etteind pas la nuit .on a reffusé de nous changer de chambre et on a rien fait pour réparer tout cela malgré les réclamations alors qu'on a passé quatre nuits.Quelques membres du personnel de la reception sont désagéable et louche. "Das Hotel Galles Milan" Das Hotel liegt in unmittelbarer Nähe der wichtigsten Sehenswürdigkeiten > Einkaufsmeile Ideal für ein Shopping in Mailand Très bel hôtel, service et propreté parfaits. Seul bémol la t° de l'eau de la piscine (25°C) Hôtel bruillant, on entend le métro résonner dans la chambre. À 7h30 on entend les employers parler dans les couloirs. Au petit déjeuner,c'est la bataille pour obtenir une boisson chaude et c'est très bruillant. Hôtel déconseillé pour les week-end rom

Phillies Prospect Roundup, July 30: Here Today... Apologies for the delay on this week's roundup, as the powerful hypnosis of MLBTR and Twitter near the trade deadline has my palms alternately sweaty and hairy. Don't worry, I can stop anytime I want to write a P.Friar-endorsed Prospect Roundup(TM). Dom. No sooner did I get to start on this week's update than a bunch of stuff happened and Dom wound up in the Show Wednesday night. I should have figured he was getting closer to the bigs when he started inspiring bolg baseball poetry (h/t zoowithroy), which you hep cats all knows I digs. Still, verse is one thing, stats are another. While we all welcome our new right field overlord, it's worth noting that Dom's last 10 AAA games had been middling (for him): .282/.370/.436, but he'd only gone hitless in two of them. This past week he'd also passed the 100AB mark at AAA, so it's somewhat useful to take a look at these splits: 1.083 OPS vs. RHP, .697 vs. LHP, the difference almost entirely in the power (0 HRs). Curiouser still: 1.275 OPS at home, .626 away. So all of his 5 AAA HRs have been off RHP at home. And Wednesday night? A righty at home. As of today, it seems he'll play (mostly) every day, so watch carefully how the young man performs against lefties on the road. Spilled milk, but I'm pretty sure the Phillies would rather have had Dom play the 14 road games in August at AAA, then bring him up 9/1 to be a real valuable bench piece better suited to share time with Victorino , which, upon Victorino's recovery, may still happen. And, we'll cross that bridge when we get there, but if Victorino's ready to go on August 10 and Dom's been good, it'll be interesting to see which lemon gets bumped. With that, actual minor leaguers after the jump... Vance Worley. (AAA-Lehigh Valley) With Dom in the Phillies' dugout, Worley now becomes the most MLB-ready talent in the Phillies. What's that, you say? You saw him in a Phillies uniform? And he looked goofy? Well, it's true, as Worley pitched a clean inning of relief on Sunday before getting shipped back to make room for J.A. Happ, who in turn left to get punk'd! by Brett Myers in the Houston clubhouse. Good times. The good news for Worley is that he got a promotion to Lehigh Valley in the process, which, as cups of coffee go, is a decent cuppa. And in his first game starting at AAA, he threw six shutout innings. Worley joins a Hummel shelf full of decent pitching prospects in the system that he might not even headline. This of course continues a comment-section-ready discussion: With Dom gone, who is the Phillies' most valuable prospect? Jarred Cosart. (A-Clearwater) Here's one answer to that question, although the Phillies are at least debating whether to just shut him down until the Fall Instructional Leagues after his June elbow strain. Some of that debate is probably for show, because Cosart has been part of trade talks, along with... Trevor May (A-Lakewood), who just twirled this bit of ridiculousness at Delmarva this week. I mean, 14K 0BB? Raises some eyebrows when you're, um, 20, and was precisely the kind of game the Phillies had been hoping for from May, who has struggled with his control all season and wound up demoted from Clearwater earlier this year. If he's found a groove, watch out SAL, because the BlueClaws are awesomer enough, and May might just strap the team on his back for another league title down the stretch. He's still young enough to be well-positioned for next year. Bello Garcia. (AA-Reading) Last time, you recall, our 2010 breakout prospect Bello was, well, adjusting to life at AA, most likely distracted by all those great deals at Reading's bus-trip-from-Queens-worthy outlets. You'll be pleased to know that since that time, he's been absolutely en fuego (.381/.480/.619 last 10), picking right back up where he left off when he set an FSL consecutive game hitting streak record in Clearwater. You could quibble that he's striking out at a higher rate than in A ball, but that's to be expected, and even at that, most of those came in his first 8 games. The 23-year-old 2B prospect is cruising in Reading. Matt Rizzotti. (AA - Reading) Sweet Jeebus, is this guy ever hitting the hell out of the ball! He's your Eastern League batting leader, folks, at .364/.450/.649. They don't grow on trees, you know. As the meat in the organizational Ryan Howard - Jonathan Singleton 1B sandwich, I figured he was expendable Billy Beane bait during the abortive Ben Sheets talks, and I'm a bit surprised he's still around. Despite the fact that most prospect heads see his ceiling as a Ross Gload type, I'm glad he's still in the organization. He's never quite slugged it like this before, so it's worth holding on to him and seeing what he can do, and heck, a cost-controlled Gload type might be useful as the Howard contract progresses into 2012. Aaron Altherr (A/short season - Williamsport) got a promotion to Williamsport (that link is a nice report from upstate and will also help answer the question - Why'd Gose hafta go?) from the New York-Penn League. Altherr is yet another tall, lanky 19-year-old outfielder who the Phils selected in the 2009 draft in the 9th round. He hit .304/.331/.400 in 27 GCL games, which is a leap forward for him over last year. Still, five walks in 146 PAs this year is, how do they put it in your performance eval? - oh yeah: an opportunity for improvement. But he's come right on up for the Crosscutters and buzzed about in the toolshed with the other young outfielders, at .320/.393/.400 in his first seven games, coppin' that Doug Glanville cult of personality. Maikel Franco. (Rookie/GCL) Franco didn't get off to such a great start, but hey, it's rookie ball. And in a system stuck in Plato's Cave, trying to divine candlelit images of big league third basemen they've grown themselves, his last 10 games, at .314/.375/.457, certainly are enough to raise at least one eyebrow. And yes, that is Maikel with a "K" - 21.1% of the time so far. Hey, he's 17. It's a Dominican thing. | 0 recs | Do you like this story? I agree with you 100% on the Worley look. As long as I’m naming Phillies prospects after animals, I’m going to propose “The Owl” for Worley. FWIW, Rizzotti’s doing a heck of a lot better in AA than Gload did at the same age. by taco pal on Jul 30, 2010 2:29 AM EDT reply actions Two prospect reports, zero poetry? Fail Honor is no substitute for victory. by The Dark on Jul 30, 2010 7:37 AM EDT reply actions well, it was outsourced to zwr this week. Lame (my response that is, not the Rime spoof), I know, but there it is. Had to double-check to see if I’d done poems on Worley or Rizzotti, and I hadn’t. They merit it, and the Owl comment got me thinking. So I’ll make that today’s task and amend/append, just because it has been a while. In the back of my mind I’m also planning to write a longer occasional poem to celebrate the return of Pat the Bat on August 12. by Wet Luzinski on Jul 30, 2010 8:09 AM EDT up reply actions Good one. “Night Owl” would perhaps be even better. by taco pal on Jul 30, 2010 8:52 AM EDT up reply actions It's gonna be a real kick in the nuts for TGP readers... …when I take back over in a week and they realize, “Hey, PF isn’t funny. Or clever. What the hell does he bring to the table, anyway?” All of that is, of course, a long-winded way of saying “great stuff, WL,” another thoroughly enjoyable read. And where I’ll continue to selfishly claim credit for the Prince of Paramus, Bello is all your doing, and I think it’s starting to stick… by PhillyFriar on Jul 30, 2010 9:41 AM EDT via mobile reply actions And you don’t write poetry either. by David S. Cohen on Jul 30, 2010 10:30 AM EDT up reply actions but you’ve got the self-deprecating humor down pat… by Boundforbeach on Jul 30, 2010 10:32 AM EDT up reply actions Friar, honestly – what’s your take on Rizzotti? I can’t quite figure if the Phillies didn’t move him because he’s been enjoying such a breakout season OR if other teams figured this is a flash in the pan. These stats are getting tougher to ignore. Bottom line is that you figure next year he’s an Iron Pig, if not sooner. by Wet Luzinski on Jul 30, 2010 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions You know, it’s funny. I always liked Rizzotti a lot, probably because I thought of him as a really good draft pick, a small school guy but with big numbers, an impressive BB-to-K ratio, and excellent raw power — not a bad gamble for a 6th (I think) round pick. But while he showed some alright pure hitting ability in pro ball, his power output was just okay, and as a college product and first base prospect, he really needed to be mashing at the lower levels to feel good about his future. I had him on my Top 30 headed into last year, but he didn’t make this offseason’s, as it seemed like he was stalling out. And then… wow. I’d like to say that I saw this year coming, but that’s simply not true. Double-A obviously weeds out the guys who aren’t going to make it as MLB players, and Rizzotti picked that significant jump to just completely go off. And every time during this run when I thought he might tail off, he does something like what he did last night (0-for-2, 3 BB). I would certainly have been wary of him if I were the Astros or another potential trading partner because, well, you can’t ignore the 1000 just okay plate appearances he had before this year. But with his age and defensive shortcomings duly noted, it’s hard to see this increasingly large 2010 sample size as anything but a huge breakout. Now, huge is somewhat relative here due to the aforementioned defensive issue, but I think we need to start giving some serious consideration to the possibility that Rizzotti could very well just be a late bloomer (and his profile as a cold weather, small school guy dovetails nicely with that). Firing from the hip a bit here, but he’s definitely moved into my top 20 and probably even top 15. by PhillyFriar on Jul 30, 2010 1:36 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions Also, sorry for rambling a bit there, but I just realized Rizzotti’s numbers from his last 10 games: .387/.604/.645 with a 16:6 (!) BB:K. Methinks a promotion to Lehigh Valley wouldn’t be such a bad idea, because the Eastern League may simply be afraid to pitch to him at this point. by PhillyFriar on Jul 30, 2010 1:41 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions We could use a .604 OBP hitting in our lineup right now. by David S. Cohen on Jul 30, 2010 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions egads, dare I say it: at first base, too (tho this is temporary). Temporary! by Wet Luzinski on Jul 30, 2010 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions Just right now though. ;) Incidentally, I’m reserving the right to essentially repeat this rant in a future column. I can’t plagiarized myself! by PhillyFriar on Jul 30, 2010 2:24 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions Under normal circumstances, when Jimmy is gracing the top of our lineup with a .285 OBP, Rizzotti’s OBP would be unnecessary. by David S. Cohen on Jul 30, 2010 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions The snark is strong in this one. by taco pal on Jul 30, 2010 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions What happened to my image? by David S. Cohen on Jul 30, 2010 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions It was eaten by the snark monster by SportingFanaticism on Jul 30, 2010 6:05 PM EDT up reply actions It’s impressive he continues to produce these obscene stats despite the peripherals that say he shouldn’t. A move to the ‘Pigs is definitely the way to further test him. Interesting idea that Eastern League pitchers may be afraid to pitch to him at this point. And the Eastern League is a pitchers’ league. by reflect4ever on Jul 30, 2010 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions nicknames OK, so then, hearing no objection, can we officially dub him Vance “The Night Owl” Worley? Perhaps I should put up a poll for Aumont. Choices include: - L’Orignal (or, alternatively, “The Moose”) - La Girafe (“The Giraffe”) - Le Buffle (“The Buffalo”) - Le Guillotine by taco pal on Jul 30, 2010 4:06 PM EDT reply actions Le Guillotine No poll needed in that apparent landslide. by Cormican on Jul 30, 2010 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions Now that you mention it, I fear that those poll options will split the pro-funny animal vote, in favor of the pro-badass violence vote. I will need to give this more thought. I like the whimsical nicknames better myself. by taco pal on Jul 30, 2010 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions Le Not Cliff Lee. by David S. Cohen on Jul 30, 2010 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs BOOOO by taco pal on Jul 30, 2010 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions too catchy? by David S. Cohen on Jul 30, 2010 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions “I greatly dislike deceased horses, and love to beat them.” —David S. Cohen (Ahhh you know I’m just kidding, buddy. Incidentally, sign me up for “Le Guillotine.”) by PhillyFriar on Jul 30, 2010 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions Did you hear about how Pat Gillick traded Bobby Abreu for almost nothing? That was horrible! by David S. Cohen on Jul 30, 2010 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions Nice. Rec’d for meme. But, yeah, what tacopal said. Unfortunately, this kid is going to be saddled with this the rest of his time in Philly. Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est. by doubleh on Jul 30, 2010 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions Von Hayes II by taco pal on Jul 30, 2010 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions At one point I was actually half-expecting the WIP morning show a-holes to organize bus trips to Reading to jeer these kids and try to introduce as much unhappiness into their lives as possible. Thankfully, none of them ever actually formulated that idea. Then again, it’s not too late. by taco pal on Jul 30, 2010 5:16 PM EDT up reply actions Well, now you’ve just alerted them to it as they surely read this site. LOL. Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est. by doubleh on Jul 30, 2010 6:00 PM EDT up reply actions Ha ha. So which one of you all is really Cataldi? by taco pal on Jul 30, 2010 6:06 PM EDT up reply actions I say it’s Fuqua, his cover is just too perfect by SportingFanaticism on Jul 30, 2010 6:07 PM EDT up reply actions Ha! by PhillyFriar on Jul 30, 2010 6:40 PM EDT up reply actions I mean seriously, if you wanted to type the complete opposite of what cataldi would probably say, it would be a Fuqua post wouldn’t it? by SportingFanaticism on Jul 30, 2010 6:42 PM EDT up reply actions Very snarky today. Someone must have pee’d in your souvenir ice cream batting helmet. by Cormican on Jul 30, 2010 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions Nerd PS: I’m all for Vance getting his own style, but if we’re adhering to Watchmen, it’s Nite Owl — the Nite means it’s classic. On a more serious note, I love the Moose. by Trev223 on Jul 30, 2010 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions Oh, woops. Then again, we might need to make the edit for copyright reasons. by taco pal on Jul 30, 2010 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions Oh, natch. With so many lawyers here, I should have assumed legality was considered. by Trev223 on Jul 30, 2010 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions Which reminds me, I was watching a commercial for the new ‘droid’ phone the other day and cracked up when i saw the ‘disclaimer’ at the bottom that they probably have to give that geek lucas money cause ‘droid’ is owned by lucasfilms. Just made me laugh that when they were designing the phone system and marketing they didn’t check into the concept of being able to use ‘droid’ without maybe paying someone – seemingly by SportingFanaticism on Jul 30, 2010 5:30 PM EDT up reply actions I wish I had come up with a lot of the ideas Lucas did (the new SW films aside, which were awful in every way but special effects and Ewan McGregor). His investments in graphic arts made him more money that SW did. ’ Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est. by doubleh on Jul 30, 2010 6:02 PM EDT up reply actions One very key thing made George Lucas a lot of money – and it’s one of the bigger business mistakes I know of (XEROX made a series of worse ones. Merchandising. When the first star wars was coming out, lucas said he wanted to merchandising rights for star wars, and the movie studio didn’t think twice about saying sure – who cares – who is going to buy toys and stuff? So yeah, that was a blunder. Then again hollywood is full of blunders – heck the next bond film might never get made cause the studio that owns it is broke by SportingFanaticism on Jul 30, 2010 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions I wonder how much 20th Century Fox kicked themselves after they saw how much he made in merchandising profits over the years? How many folks lost their jobs in that wake? That and special effects house—when he made SW, there was no such thing, and he thought, “Hey, I’ll make one myself.” And “Hey, we’ll take this little known concept, the steadicam, and make it better and used all over the world.” Oh, and “Hey, how about we make animated films even better with this Pixar concept?” Meh. Me, I’m too busy being stupid and working every day for the same old job to be a visionary. Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est. by doubleh on Jul 30, 2010 6:12 PM EDT up reply actions Well, you’re not responsible for Jar Jar Binks either, so it evens out. by taco pal on Jul 30, 2010 6:14 PM EDT up reply actions Man, that was horrible. Why, why, why couldn’t he hire someone else to write the scripts for him? Kevin Smith was DYING—nay, practically BEGGING to write a SW script for him. Even he would have done better than that crap Lucas churned out. The dialogue…embarassing! Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est. by doubleh on Jul 30, 2010 6:22 PM EDT up reply actions Chasing Amy is one of my favorite films, that Darth Vader thing was awesome, but no way I’d let him near a star wars script. Honestly, Roger Zelazny did some awesome work with star wars ‘7/8/9’ in the 80s and they probably should have handed it over to him. Hell I don’t think Lucas wrote all three scripts for the first 3 movies, i mean obviously they were his stories, but I don’t believe he was the writer for all of them. Guys like Abrams, or Whedon, guys who are just talented writers, and have a lot more hits than misses would have been awesome choices – but to me, Kevin Smith doesn’t have the skill to write star wars movies well.. Honestly, i would wan’t a giant fan boy writing the films myself. (Though if you haven’t seen the movie fanboys – it’s awesome) The fact that michael bay made the same mistake (yes michael bay is a moron but still) as lucas in transformers 2 is shocking to me by SportingFanaticism on Jul 30, 2010 6:25 PM EDT up reply actions Well, you’re probably right, but it still would have been better than that shit Lucas churned out even with Smith. Whedon would have been great, but too smart for the masses. I love his work. I even liked Timothy Zahn and Kevin Anderson’s work in the SW fiction universe. Didn’t Zelazny die in the 90’s? I really, really liked his work. I love science fiction of all kinds, really. It’s the only writing I really enjoy, aside from John Irving. I hate most writers, especially “celebrated” ones. Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est. by doubleh on Jul 30, 2010 6:37 PM EDT up reply actions I didn’t know zelazny was dead, just remember his heir to the empire series was brilliant. And while I don’t know john irving well, i know that a prayer for owen meany would make it very close to to the top of my favorite books i ever read, many that book was awesome, could be the worst movie adaptation ever though by SportingFanaticism on Jul 30, 2010 6:39 PM EDT up reply actions Oh, absolutely, which is why he wouldn’t allow the naming rights to it. He hated the product. Most of the movies made of his books are bad, “Cider House Rules” notwithstanding. They just never capture his essence as it were. He’s one weird dude and I love that about him. “A Prayer for Owen Meany” is also my favorite, followed by “The World According to Garp,” and “A Widow for One Year.” Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est. by doubleh on Jul 30, 2010 6:43 PM EDT up reply actions Never read garp, but I did like the movie by SportingFanaticism on Jul 30, 2010 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions Hated the book But the film was a big improvement, thanks entirely to Glenn Close and John Lithgow. by essman on Jul 30, 2010 6:58 PM EDT up reply actions Well Lucas mmay have started Pixar, but Steve Jobs made it huge. Lucas had some good ideas, but really he needs to pass his good ideas on to better writers usually. He is a limited story teller in my mind. And as far as special effects houses goes, I think Cameron’s surpassed lucas long ago. Lucas was ground breaking but lucas arts/films has had a lot of mis steps more recently, especially in the gaming world – their MMO better be huge by SportingFanaticism on Jul 30, 2010 6:18 PM EDT up reply actions Isn’t that the way it works with a lot of folks? Visionaries often need better business people to help them make their visions come to fruition? You make good points, but I’d still take his money and accomplishments over being a fracking marketing manager for a nat’l tech company any day of the week. Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est. by doubleh on Jul 30, 2010 6:20 PM EDT up reply actions I’d take 1/100 of his money and call it a day (I always thought if i ever comitted a crime it would be like some white collar embezzling of microsoft or something cause well, come in – are they gonna miss it – it’s superman 3) The problem (in my experience) is when the visionaries don’t realize their limitations. Their grasp exceeds their reach. Then you end up with things like EPisode 1 2 and 3 or indiana jones and the crystal skull or the apple lisa. It’s great to be a visionary, but if you don’t have the common sense to realize what you yourself are capable of doing and not doing, you might end up with some heavy duty egg on your face (and yes yes, they made a lot of money but I don’t think they were especially good even for the genre they were in) In a similar way, i think pirates of the carribean 2 and 3 (and matrix 2 and 3) suffered under the weight of the egos of their creators after their first huge hits by SportingFanaticism on Jul 30, 2010 6:23 PM EDT up reply actions In this vein, I learned a fun fact last night. Does anyone know who made the second most money off the Star Wars franchise, behind Lucas? by PhillyFriar on Jul 30, 2010 6:44 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions His wife in the divorce? by SportingFanaticism on Jul 30, 2010 6:46 PM EDT up reply actions Touché, salesman. Actually, it was Alec Guinness. They simply couldn’t afford to pay an actor of his stature enough to be in IV, so he just asked that they give him 1% of whatever future profits they made on the franchise. Savvy, huh? by PhillyFriar on Jul 30, 2010 7:22 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions GENIUS But of course, he was a jedi by SportingFanaticism on Jul 30, 2010 7:35 PM EDT up reply actions So all this hype about Singleton in the Oswalt threads and how he should be untouchable – come on kid – throw us a bone about him by SportingFanaticism on Jul 30, 2010 5:31 PM EDT reply actions Who, me? by PhillyFriar on Jul 30, 2010 5:47 PM EDT up reply actions Yes please, only mentioning him in terms of a sandwich? (mmmmmmm, sandwich) by SportingFanaticism on Jul 30, 2010 5:51 PM EDT up reply actions In his chat this week, Keith Law did mention him but indicated he didn’t see a ‘power stroke’ (I may have the term wrong) in him, so I’m curios about him since others seemed to contradict him on that. by SportingFanaticism on Jul 30, 2010 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions Hmmm, didn’t see that chat mention. I do know that scouts have loved Singleton’s natural hitting ability and raw power since high school, and with an ISO over .200 in that Lakewood cavern, I figured Singleton had melded the two effectively. But maybe he can still tweak things to unlock more natural power by generating more loft and backspin, incorporating his lower half more, etc. Just speculating, because I haven’t really seen himseing the bat this year, and I’ll admit that I know precious little about swing mechanics. All that said, any knocks on Singleton’s bat strike me as really nitpicking at this point. He’s an 18-year old in full season ball, he’s walking nearly as much as he’s striking out, and he’s hitting for a shit ton of power. There’s really nothing not to love about his offensive profile at this point. by PhillyFriar on Jul 30, 2010 6:50 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions See I knew I got it wrong – here’s what he said (re singleton) Pretty easy, simple swing, but not geared for power right now. by SportingFanaticism on Jul 30, 2010 6:55 PM EDT reply actions And reply fail by SportingFanaticism on Jul 30, 2010 6:55 PM EDT up reply actions So they are gonna let Cosart pitch in the fall? Oh fer fuck’s sake – hasn’t anyone thought that the increase of injuries in baseball is among many things, from playing the god damn sport year round. Fucking dumb. by j reed on Jul 30, 2010 6:57 PM EDT<<

What Should Gators Fans Expect From Brent Pease? Boise State Fans Explain Brent Pease is now Florida's offensive coordinator. But there's still plenty of doubt among some Florida fans about whether Pease's schemes from his time at Boise State will translate to the SEC, or whether he'll be the home run hire he's touted as being. To get some answers, I reached out to the folks at SB Nation's fantastic Boise State blog, One Bronco Nation Under God, to get a sense of what they think about Pease, and they graciously answered my questions with some really good insight. Thanks again to Kevan, Drew, and Nick, and make sure to check out OBNUG. Pease has just one year of experience as Boise State's offensive coordinator, but has been on Chris Petersen's staff for a number of years. How much of the Petersen scheme do you think Pease has absorbed? How much of the ocean does a sea sponge absorb? Enough for you to know that the sponge came from the ocean, I would suppose (I'm neither a marine biologist nor all that interested in science). Basically, the Boise State offense is complex and expansive, and Pease has taken in as much of it as his offensive coordinator mind can take. The Chris Petersen offense will be unmistakable once Pease starts calling plays at Florida. Was Pease's offense in 2011 appreciably different from the one Bryan Harsin ran in 2010 and before? How so? In no ways was it different than the Harsin offense, which probably explains how much Chris Petersen is still involved in offensive gameplanning. I imagine that the players might have noticed a few different tweaks or tendencies, but the on-field product looked largely the same as the year before. What are the strengths and weaknesses of Boise State's offense? The Boise State offense uses leverage, numbers, and grass to get the upper hand on the defense. There was a stellar article written about it at Smart Football a couple years back. Those three elements make it hard for the offense to have a weakness since it is constantly changing and morphing until its weaknesses turn into strengths. For instance, let's say that outside running is a weakness. You change formations, shift extra blockers out wide pre-snap, and suddenly your weakness is a strength. Where the offense might run into trouble is with very well-prepared defenses with smart players who recognize what the Boise State offense is trying to do. Also, big, fast athletes render some of the leverage and grass moot, if they can fight through leverage and run across grass better than the offense expects. Will Muschamp has talked about the importance of running a pro-style offensive system. Does Boise State's offense qualify, in your mind? Absolutely. Dirk Koetter was one of the originals at Boise State, and he has gone on to coach offense in the NFL. You'd see a lot more Boise State quarterbacks in the pros if they were the right size and had less Jared Zabransky to them. Do you think Boise State's success is due to its coaches below Petersen, or is it all Petersen's system? I think that Petersen is the reason for Boise State's success. He hired the right guys and installed the right system. Everything at Boise State is so fluid, it's hard to pinpoint anything as the reason for success except Coach Pete. For instance, the system will look different next year because the offensive players and their abilities will be different. How well-regarded is Pease as a recruiter? Are there any notable players he was responsible for recruiting? I do know that he has turned out some pretty good receivers as Boise State's receivers coach. I have to think that wideouts liked him enough to come play for him and that they knew he would turn them into great players. Austin Pettis and Titus Young are the two most recent examples. Are there any specific Pease plays you love? Any you hate? I love all the plays that use different formations than normal. Boise State has a formation where they split their left tackle out wide and put a tight end in the tackle spot. They have a three-RB formation. They have a package for a WR-QB. The one play that I have hated over the years is the quarterback option out of shotgun. But that may have been more because Kellen Moore was running it. | 0 recs | Do you like this story? Was just saying in another thread on here, that if Pease can guide our offense next year to say around 50th in the country (just in terms of total offense) and say, about a touchdown more a game on average, I’d be ecstatic. We were 105th last year in total offense and averaged just over 25 points per game, which was about 70th overall. Another touchdown per game would have put us at low 20’s, high 30’s, nationally. I honestly don’t care whether the improvement comes from the passing game or the running game, I just want to see improvement overall. by FlaGators on Jan 11, 2012 4:39 PM EST reply actions Yeah, I remain apprehensive I do like that he’s a college guy more than a pro guy, so the NFLAIDS won’t be as prominent compared to a Shula hire or some such, but after watching Harsin go to Texas and get little more out of that offense, I will remain cautiously optimistic. Right now, the most important thing is really QB development. by Charles UF on Jan 11, 2012 4:47 PM EST reply actions Obviously everyone is entitled to their opinion but I keep seeing this somewhat lukewarm reaction to this hire, and I can’t for the life of me figure out why. I suppose some could take issue with Pease only being the coordinator for 1 year, but beyond that what is there not to like? The guy comes from an incredibly well established offensive system, and coaching tree. He runs exactly the kind of offense that Muschamp is looking for, and with great affect. He was a WR coach for 5 years, which has been out most glaring weakness in terms of development for a couple of years now. I just don’t see anything not to like. I keep seeing this ideal of what Florida should hire, and it’s a proven coordinator, with a track record etc etc and the reality is that those guys simply don’t exist. If coordinators have a proven track record of success they become head coaches…. I love the Pease hire, and I can’t wait to see our offense improve next year. My only reservation is a concern over the players having to adjust to another new coordinator. I know that Muschamp said he wants to run the same system/plays etc, but there is no way that Pease takes over an offense, with a defensive minded coach, and doesn’t install his system, and do things his way. contributing author - Alligator Army by Cardsfan25 on Jan 11, 2012 5:00 PM EST up reply actions I agree this is an amazing hire. And I don’t understand how quickly people forget the 6 years of OC experience he had at Kentucky and Baylor prior to Boise State. Those offenses were actually pretty good, especially when you consider he was coordinating teams that are at the bottom rung of their respective conferences and divisions (Big XII actually had divisions back then). The fact that he has been under the tutelage of Chris Petersen since 2006 only adds to the luster we should be raving about. I mean this guy was an assistant head coach at Boise State when they beat Oklahoma in the Feista Bowl in 2008 (one of the best Bowl games you’ll see besides the 2006 BCS NC game of UF and OSU.) Brent Pease for UF! by ECFIVESTER on Jan 11, 2012 7:19 PM EST up reply actions Coming from a great system/coaching tree doesn't necessarily translate. Just look at how the Saban coaching tree did this year. The reality is that Petersen has, since 2001, really been in control of that offense. Has Pease done good work in the Boise Receiver Corp? It seems like he got good results with the talent he had, and receivers have definitely been a weak spot, which is positive for us. My issue is this: How much can he bring from Chris Petersen’s offense to Florida? Also important, how well will he be able to recruit in an area he has practically no ties to? by Charles UF on Jan 12, 2012 1:20 AM EST up reply actions so should we have gotten someone from a weak coaching tree? After a month of speculation about who the offensive coordinator would be, or ideas about who would be the best fit, my only response is….who would’ve been better in your opinion? contributing author - Alligator Army by Cardsfan25 on Jan 12, 2012 8:54 AM EST up reply actions Unfortunately it's not really a fair question for a fan to answer. I have a lot of guys I’d be willing to check with considering I think we’re in bigger need of a guy who can really coach up QBs and recruit more than a X’s and O’s guy. I feel like if we got our QBs in order and recruited on offense better, it would fall together anyway. We’re also narrowed down by having to get a pro style guy. To that end, I actually was hoping Major Applewhite was going to be our guy. QB coach experience. Offensive coordinator experience. Roots in the south. Roots in Texas and Alabama. by Charles UF on Jan 12, 2012 6:36 PM EST up reply actions We'll have to agree to disagree because I wanted no part of Major Applewhite. His offense at Bama was horrible. contributing author - Alligator Army by Cardsfan25 on Jan 13, 2012 9:58 AM EST up reply actions Texas improved from 58th in 2010 to 54th in 2011 in terms of total offense. In terms of scoring offense, they improved from 88th in 2010 to 55th in 2011. So there is that… Texas’ FEI, was 70th this past year while they were 72nd in 2010 … so basically the same. But then again, the entire Texas program has undergone a serious transformation since appearing in the National Championship Game after the 2009 season. by FlaGators on Jan 11, 2012 5:19 PM EST up reply actions I think looking at Texas too closely may be a mistake That isn’t to say things will go better or worse here than they did at Texas, but we’re talking about a different team, with different players etc. Taking a coordinator and putting him at school X, and then taking another coordinator who runs the same system and putting him at school Y and expecting identical results simply isn’t practical. That being said, If our scoring offense went up to 55, I’d consider that a healthy improvement. contributing author - Alligator Army by Cardsfan25 on Jan 11, 2012 6:10 PM EST up reply actions Oh I know, I was mainly just pointing them just so they’d be out in the open. by FlaGators on Jan 11, 2012 6:14 PM EST up reply actions Based on the comments above, It sounds like your expectations are in line. We Texas fans got swept up in the total overhaul and let our expectations get out of hand. Manny Diaz did a spectacular job of building on your coaches work. But our dependence on freshmen for our offense (including our QB) and the Boise remake was less than spectacular. In retrospect, going from 5-7 last year to 8-5, was probably about right. Harsin did have somewhat of a learning curve early on, but we remain cautiously optimistic that we will be back in the 10 win minimum seasons quickly. Good luck with Pease and be patient (if thats possible)…..and make sure you whip aTm . I'd kill for a Nobel Peace Prize by MeatchickenHorn on Jan 11, 2012 5:40 PM EST reply actions We're all fans, so no one can blame you guys for the optimism... I assure you, that there will be optimism aplenty in Gainesville as well. It sounds like you do though see the benefits of Harisin in retrospect, and I would expect your offense to improve considerably in the coming year. As has been mentioned elsewhere, the Boise offense works, plain and simple. It isn’t gimicky, and I personally don’t think it’s a system that is demonstrably better or worse depending on competition. I think Texas and Florida will both be just fine offensively, provided that patience that your preaching is actually given. contributing author - Alligator Army by Cardsfan25 on Jan 11, 2012 6:14 PM EST up reply actions Patience at UF is roughly three years. Unless you are a known commodity like Addazio, or a Zook. For someone we haven’t seen before 2-3 years is about what it’ll take before we run someone out. by FlaGators on Jan 11, 2012 6:16 PM EST up reply actions You say my name man? by Gators1 on Jan 11, 2012 9:03 PM EST up reply actions No he said my name man. by Gators1 on Jan 11, 2012 9:06 PM EST up reply actions Given the choice of the two, I’d take Ron Zook back on the staff. At least he can recruit. by FlaGators on Jan 11, 2012 9:08 PM EST up reply actions Agreed. Same. by Gators1 on Jan 11, 2012 10:17 PM EST up reply actions Addazio recruited pretty well Remember when Meyer had 2 heartattackSabanstrokes and quit and Addazio held together the 2010 recruiting class? Don’t factor in the post-coaching change transfers, those aren’t Steve’s fault. The Brantley dive was though (although, Brantley was so terrible at everything that running him right up the middle doesn’t seem like such a bad idea now). by Chekhov's Spread Gun Option on Jan 12, 2012 7:40 AM EST up reply actions True. But I’d still take Zook’s guys over Addazio’s. But you do have a good point. by FlaGators on Jan 12, 2012 9:55 AM EST up reply actions Also, we’ll take care of A&M for ya. Good luck this upcoming year to you. by FlaGators on Jan 11, 2012 6:17 PM EST up reply actions And good luck to you.....Maybe we will meet in the NC game in the next few years. I'd kill for a Nobel Peace Prize by MeatchickenHorn on Jan 11, 2012 7:01 PM EST up reply actions Fewer turnovers, about 30th or better in scoring, and enough offense to keep the defense rested by Chekhov's Spread Gun Option on Jan 11, 2012 6:29 PM EST reply actions Man that article on Boise's offense gives me so much hope that Florida will be a thing of beauty for seasons on end, especially with Muschamp keeping the defense on top. Brent Pease for UF! by ECFIVESTER on Jan 11, 2012 7:11 PM EST reply actions Yeah it gives me hope as well. To long have we Gator fans had to endure watching an anemic offense. And yes 2 years is too long. If I die, I forgive you, if I recover, we shall see. by Gatorbuc15 on Jan 11, 2012 7:20 PM EST up reply actions I count three years. 2009, was stressful as well. by FlaGators on Jan 11, 2012 7:57 PM EST up reply actions True If I die, I forgive you, if I recover, we shall see. by Gatorbuc15 on Jan 11, 2012 8:37 PM EST up reply actions 2009 was stressful because the 2008 team was the best offensive team in the history of the SEC that set an impossible bar for the 09 team. Still, the Gators won every game except for the Saban-ing. by Chekhov's Spread Gun Option on Jan 12, 2012 7:41 AM EST up reply actions Still though, it wasn’t a very fun year. You just had to know they weren’t going to win. And of course, the Arkansas game…. by FlaGators on Jan 12, 2012 9:56 AM EST up reply actions I think since that game we have had a trouble stopping big backs when we need to. Man is that annoying. I will now formally call this the curse of Dennis Johnson. Brent Pease for UF! by ECFIVESTER on Jan 12, 2012 11:18 AM EST up reply actions You’ll get no argument from me. by FlaGators on Jan 12, 2012 12:53 PM EST up reply actions Now will he be our like the QB coach as well Or will they bring someone else in to help develope Brissett and Driskel? "Courage is being scared to death but saddlein up anyway" John Wayne by DustinFLA on Jan 11, 2012 8:13 PM EST via mobile reply actions He will probably have too. I think the Gators are at their limit of assistant coaches. by FlaGators on Jan 11, 2012 8:28 PM EST up reply actions Yeah I heard he would be over the QB’s. Which if I was a betting man, I would bet Driskel is the starter for the first game of the season. by Gators1 on Jan 11, 2012 9:05 PM EST up reply actions Hmmm, sounds like we should open the Alligator Army Casino. by FlaGators on Jan 11, 2012 9:09 PM EST up reply actions Yeah. Muschamp said that much during the presser. by Andy Hutchins on Jan 12, 2012 2:12 AM EST up reply actions White? Is Brian White going to stay on staff as the RB’s coach? I haven’t heard any news on this… by DCGator on Jan 12, 2012 9:31 AM EST reply actions I would think so. by FlaGators on Jan 12, 2012 9:57 AM EST up reply actions Just didn’t know if he was going to leave bc he didn’t the get OC gig by DCGator on Jan 12, 2012 9:58 AM EST up reply actions Yeah, I hadn’t really thought of that. by FlaGators on Jan 12, 2012 10:05 AM EST up reply actions Feb. 1 can’t get here fast enough! I get stressed out every year. Diggs and NA just need to go ahead and pull the trigger and commit already we have to get those guys by DCGator on Jan 12, 2012 10:12 AM EST up reply actions Yep. It’s time for the Gators to reload. by FlaGators on Jan 12, 2012 11:11 AM EST up reply actions White had stated after Weis left that even if he didn’t get the job he would be staying at UF to keep the continuity of the coaching staff going. Brent Pease for UF! by ECFIVESTER on Jan 12, 2012 11:19 AM EST up reply actions Diggs info! "I don’t have a leader or top five or anything like that," Diggs said Tuesday night. "I’m wide open, and I’m planning on waiting until after signing day to make my final decision." Quote from Diggs to Derek Tyson…. by DCGator on Jan 12, 2012 10:20 AM EST reply actions I think he's just going to show up somewhere in the summer No announcement, he’ll just walk into whatever school’s coach’s office and say “I’m here.” by Chekhov's Spread Gun Option on Jan 12, 2012 10:25 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs haha Do we know anything about this kid’s attitude? I hope he’s not one of these spotlight kids. If so, do we really want someone like that? by DCGator on Jan 12, 2012 10:40 AM EST up reply actions He seems pretty laid back, but I don't know him Talent/potential probably trumps anything but the absolute worst personality in this case, but I don’t think it’s a problem with him. What is going to be a problem, the California schools and Urban Meyer. That guy needs to go back to talking on ESPN instead of gobbling up top national recruits. by Chekhov's Spread Gun Option on Jan 12, 2012 11:00 AM EST up reply actions Haha. ’Rec. by FlaGators on Jan 12, 2012 11:11 AM EST up reply actions I remember seeing that but it was prior to the announcement that Pease brings war on the SEC. Brent Pease for UF! by ECFIVESTER on Jan 12, 2012 11:20 AM EST up reply actions Gatorsports has Diggs with this in there recent recruiting story “I know he likes to throw the ball a lot, so I guess we got somebody good” The whole we factor seems to imply Diggs is already bleeding orange & blue. Brent Pease for UF! by ECFIVESTER on Jan 12, 2012 11:23 AM EST up reply actions Doh wrong use of there,their, they’re *their Brent Pease for UF! by ECFIVESTER on Jan 12, 2012 11:24 AM EST up reply actions haha. It’s the featured article on ESPN’s Recruiting Nation right now. looks like Gatorsports.com > ESPN in this situation. by DCGator on Jan 12, 2012 11:57 AM EST up reply actions I wonder if there is any chance this kid could be a 2-way type player. I know he is being recruited as a WR, but jesus….watch some tape on this kid on defense. Pretty impressive. On a punt, he spin-moved a blocker and then blocked the kick. We need to throw the book at this kid and get him. If we lose him to that bastard LaMe Kiffin, that will suck bad. by Gators1 on Jan 12, 2012 12:49 PM EST up reply actions He's not going to USC Florida’s primary competition with him is Maryland, Virginia, and Auburn. contributing author - Alligator Army by Cardsfan25 on Jan 12, 2012 1:34 PM EST up reply actions I don't think any of those schools have much of a chance and every recruit that goes out to USC absolutely loves it. If Kiffin can get him to take the visit, then they are the team to beat. by Chekhov's Spread Gun Option on Jan 12, 2012 1:38 PM EST up reply actions well, he does seem to be swayed by the moment so who knows... but Florida is the team to beat right now IMO. That being said, Locksley at MD, and Trooper at Auburn at worrisome. contributing author - Alligator Army by Cardsfan25 on Jan 12, 2012 1:45 PM EST up reply actions If Florida’s only competition is Maryland, Virginia, and Auburn then yeah I love our chances. Maryland is going nowhere fast, Auburn is sinking like crazy, and Virginia is Virginia. Virginia has a pretty good Head Coach but I don’t see them ever being more than a 7-9 win team consistently. by Gators1 on Jan 12, 2012 1:52 PM EST up reply actions One look at Clemson and you’ll know that it’s not always about where a team is headed, or been, when it comes to recruiting. Eli Harold picked Virginia over Florida. Noor Davis chose Stanford, and Adam Bisnowaty chose Pitt over Florida. On the surface those would seem like head scratchers to us, but to these kids it’s not always about what the program is, but where they feel comfortable…it is what it is. contributing author - Alligator Army by Cardsfan25 on Jan 12, 2012 2:00 PM EST up reply actions I hear ya. i thought about Clemson after I wrote that. Damn if we could’ve gotten Watkins. by Gators1 on Jan 12, 2012 2:02 PM EST up reply actions or Spiller, or Watkins, or Bellamy, or Steward... Clem$on is a frustrating school to recruit against. contributing author - Alligator Army by Cardsfan25 on Jan 12, 2012 2:26 PM EST up reply actions And not a single fanbase is more upset at that, than FSU. by FlaGators on Jan 12, 2012 3:14 PM EST up reply actions yeah As irritated as I get at Clemson for snaking a recruit or two, it can’t be anything close to what FSU is starting to feel toward them. contributing author - Alligator Army by Cardsfan25 on Jan 12, 2012 3:58 PM EST up reply actions Yep. by FlaGators on Jan 12, 2012 5:53 PM EST up reply actions To be honest I love it when they play FSU … let’s jab at those pesky fans anyways. Brent Pease for UF! by ECFIVESTER on Jan 13, 2012 9:44 AM EST up reply actions Our hatred of Clemson is at an all-time high Made the Orange Bowl AMAZING though lol by BobLoblaw113 on Jan 13, 2012 4:44 PM EST up reply actions Haha, I bet it did. by FlaGators on Jan 13, 2012 8:10 PM EST up reply actions I just had to refill my scrip for xanex. Had’nt had to take em in like 6 months and then I decided to follow The Gator’s recruiting class…. "Courage is being scared to death but saddlein up anyway" John Wayne by DustinFLA on Jan 12, 2012 12:17 PM EST via mobile reply actions Haha, well … that ought help. by FlaGators on Jan 12, 2012 1:08 PM EST up reply actions Last years class was waaaay worse! Last season, after Meyer bailed, was my first time following recruiting closely. Watch numerous kids de-commit and go to FSU, Ohio State, and Tennessee was awful! This year is shaping up very good minus the whole Mike crazyass Davis/Keith Marshall situation. by GoGators82 on Jan 13, 2012 1:48 AM EST via mobile up reply actions Yeah, that (almost) always happens during a coaching change. Especially one that has that kind of timing. by FlaGators on Jan 13, 2012 10:00 AM EST up reply actions I'm Confused ... … which isn’t anything new — but why are we pumped about this hire again? Dood ran a quality offense, with an NFL QB and beat the likes of, umm, Tulsa, Nevada … I mean, the best (and only ranked team) they played was the Dawgs. Playing and beating a ranked team once a year does not a program make. Look, anyone is better than Fatty and Addazi (I refuse to associate any O with his name) but I also have tempered expectations. However, after watching the Title Game, imagine a Gator team with an O and that D? We’d be competitive. We have the talent — so there really is no excuse. Brantley was a gutless coward — I’m sorry to say that but its true. I believed in him and I know he dealt with a lot during his dubious tenure here. But missing the throws he missed and choking the way he did is simply inexcusable. I don’t expect to be in the title hunt every year — but I do expect effort and a scheme that works and we haven’t had that for two years and I’m tired of it. We have the talent on the field — just not off … by alrob11 on Jan 12, 2012 1:22 PM EST reply actions You just said everything I've been thinking, but more eloquently than I could ever put 12, 2012 1:28 PM EST up reply actions I'll take a shot at it... " I mean, the best (and only ranked team) they played was the Dawgs" – and they beat them like a drum too. How can you possibly lay your issues with Boise St schedule at the feet of the coordinator? I get it, we all get it, Boise doesn’t play anybody, but what does that have to do with his offense putting up stellar numbers? Is your concern that the offense won’t work in the SEC? Do you think that Boise’s incredibly balanced, and pro style attack is too gimmicky, where Urban Meyer’s clearly wasn’t? As you said, we have the talent, so I fail to see how Boise St schedule does anything to negatively affect the way the new cordinator can use that talent. To me it’s a pretty simple equation…take a solid and productive system, and imput elite Florida talent into it. As long as Pease is a good playcaller, and he’s given us no reason to think otherwise, then what is the problem? contributing author - Alligator Army by Cardsfan25 on Jan 12, 2012 1:39 PM EST up reply actions And to add Yet again too many people are focusing on just the Boise State aspect of Pease. There’s also the years at UK when he was OC and they had a effective offense (one that put our offense this past year to shame) with inferior talent to what Florida has to offer. Same at Baylor. The guy beats teams with better talent. And learning from Chris Petersen on how to do it more efficiently is just the icing on the cake. Brent Pease for UF! by ECFIVESTER on Jan 12, 2012 1:56 PM EST up reply actions I agree about Kentucky but his days at Baylor were nothing to write home about…then again, it’s Baylor so what do you expect? contributing author - Alligator Army by Cardsfan25 on Jan 12, 2012 2:01 PM EST up reply actions Yeah I went back and i did some more digging into the Baylor thing and didn’t come away with too much besides a conclusion the talent pool drop off at Baylor. Shich is why he went to Boise State, rather than getting picked up somewhere else as an OC. Brent Pease for UF! by ECFIVESTER on Jan 13, 2012 9:47 AM EST up reply actions I don't understand the "gimmicky" stuff. What’s the gimmick, exactly, in a well run and balanced spread offense? by Charles UF on Jan 12, 2012 6:41 PM EST up reply actions The "gimmick" in my mind is the type of players. Especially at the o-line. Undersized, a tad quicker, the kind of lineman you expect Navy and Army to boast. The fast nimble guys who just don’t do well in overall drop back passing. Was it always that way with Meyer? No. But the guys Meyer brought in that were his, were for the most part that way. The Pounceys just play mean and smart. That has been the most underrated issue over the past 3 years. The continued decline of o-line play. Brent Pease for UF! by ECFIVESTER on Jan 13, 2012 9:52 AM EST up reply actions Meyer always seemed to recruit the best O-line prospects regardless of who they were When they got here, he tended to focus on speed training though. It’s a workable system though. Oklahoma, who runs a passed based spread, had, if anything, an oversized line. by Charles UF on Jan 13, 2012 1:26 PM EST up reply actions I was speaking more to perception than anything. I have no issues with a well run spread option, and it’s shown to be extremely effective, but many still consider it to be a “gimmicky” offense. Personally I hate that term, but that point I was making was that Pease and Boise run what could only be considered a very good version of a “pro style” or commonly accepted offensive system. contributing author - Alligator Army by Cardsfan25 on Jan 13, 2012 10:01 AM EST up reply actions Fair enough. The gimmick term always gives me some measure of disdain. You can do so much out of the spread at this point, and you can really create a balanced attack. The freaking Patriots basically run a version of the spread. by Charles UF on Jan 13, 2012 1:28 PM EST up reply actions He’s better than Addazio or Weis, just because he isn’t them? by FlaGators on Jan 12, 2012 1:41 PM EST up reply actions Maybe... Like I said earlier, I can’t for the like of me figure out why any Florida fan is not pleased with this hire, and my response to all of those people is the same…who would you have preferred? contributing author - Alligator Army by Cardsfan25 on Jan 12, 2012 1:47 PM EST up reply actions For starters…..Mike Sherman. But, that’s beside the point now. We got who we got. I’m done complaining about it and no longer care because the hire has been made. Let’s move forward with that and go from here. I think the next 2 weeks has a lot to say about this hire. If we lose any offensive recruits (I don’t think we will) and gain Diggs and possibly Agholor then I think it will say a lot. Again, it won’t really matter until on game days because any coach can get the recruits and be a great coach every day except Saturday (See: Zook, Ronald). So, I for one, am no longer going to say anything negative about it, and wish Coach Pease the best, and as FlaGators said yesterday, even if we are ranked around 50th in Total Offense next year, that is still a really good job compared to how bad we were this year. Also, I do have to disagree with something he said. Brantley was a gutless coward Gutless? Seriously. Did you see him on one leg in the Georgia game? He’s not gutless or a coward. by Gators1 on Jan 12, 2012 2:01 PM EST up reply actions Gross Why would you want Mike Sherman? He’d be Weis 2.0. Well, maybe .35 Weis, since Weis is a big fat fatty who is fat all the time and he probably ate all the food at Gator Dining because he’s so fat. HEY CHARLIE WEIS, STOP EATING ALL THE FOOD, LEAVE SOME FOR THE COLLEGE STUDENTS SO THEY DON’T BECOME MALNOURISHED LIKE FLORIDA’S SKINNY ASS DEFENSIVE LINE. And as far as Brantley, he’s not gutless, but he was made of a very cheap, brittle variety of glass. He had heart to play when he broke, but he broke all the damn time. Also, he was brainless. It’s easy to fault his decision making, but it’s important to remember that it was a triumph that he could make any decision at all, considering he lacked an organ devoted to thought. by Chekhov's Spread Gun Option on Jan 12, 2012 2:20 PM EST up reply actions agree Not really sure why you think Sherman would be an upgrade, and also what makes you think that Mike Sherman would’ve come to be the OC at Florida. The Bucs are looking at him for head coach, and the guy’s been a head coach for 10 years, but you think he’s chomping at the bit to be the OC for a 2nd year first time head coach? come on…. Also, let’s stop ragging on Brantley. I think it makes look terrible as a fanbase to blast a QB qho had to put up with everything he did. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not gonna shed any tears to not see #12 under center next year, but Brantley was a Gator for 5 season; let’s show him some love. contributing author - Alligator Army by Cardsfan25 on Jan 12, 2012 2:25 PM EST up reply actions I never said we would get him. You asked who I would’ve preferred. And there is no way you can KNOW he would be like Weis. When Sherman was let go at A&M people felt bad, and really liked him. Sherman is also a tremendous recruiter. EVERYONE and their brother and sister wanted Weis gone a season before he was let go. Again, why are we even arguing or debating this? As I just said…the hire has been made, let’s move forward and stand behind the hire that was made. I’m still going to support the team and the staff. It’s not like I HATE the hire, I just don’t fully agree with it, but I am going to accept it moving forward. And yeah….Completely agree with you on the Brantley think. It’s getting a little ridiculous. by Gators1 on Jan 12, 2012 3:13 PM EST up reply actions He would be exactly like Weis in that he'd leave after a year by Chekhov's Spread Gun Option on Jan 12, 2012 3:18 PM EST up reply actions well, I'd rather have Bill Belichick But it’s also unlikely that he would have left the Patriots to take the Florida OC position. I think from amongst realistic candidates, we made a good hire. The mere fact that Saban had interest in him as well, should make us feel pretty good about it. After all, we haven’t beaten Saban in much lately. In all kinds of weather... by skigator93 on Jan 13, 2012 10:45 AM EST up reply actions Yeah. What you mentioned is exactly why I am going to accept the hire and move on. He must be something special. I don’t see it. But if Muschamp and Saban(who just won a NC 4 days ago) see it…then yeah, I mean, there must be something with this guy. I hope it all works out, and if it does…I will gladly eat crow all day long. by Gators1 on Jan 13, 2012 11:45 AM EST up reply actions It's hard to blame him after 2010 Dude was broken beyond recognition by Addazio and Urban and that offensive line and those cockfingery receivers. by Charles UF on Jan 12, 2012 6:42 PM EST up reply actions Because you mentioned cockfingers…I went and surfed the Internet to see what pictures or highlight tapes I could find of the one and only…Mr. cockfingers . In 4 years this is all I was able to find… by Gators1 on Jan 12, 2012 7:28 PM EST up reply actions Realistically, it all started with that first Miami (OH) game When you can’t trust your center to snap the ball to you directly, that can seriously damage your psyche. by Charles UF on Jan 12, 2012 7:41 PM EST up reply actions STONEYHANDS STRIKES AGAIN!!! Brent Pease for UF! by ECFIVESTER on Jan 13, 2012 9:56 AM EST up reply actions Haha! by FlaGators on Jan 13, 2012 10:01 AM EST up reply actions eyes on the ball Stonehands, eyes on the ball! In all kinds of weather... by skigator93 on Jan 13, 2012 10:46 AM EST up reply actions And this is the senior example we've had to show our incoming recruits no wonder our wr corp is not up to par with past teams Brent Pease for UF! by ECFIVESTER on Jan 13, 2012 1:32 PM EST up reply actions So basically Brantley is IF he only had a brain (he wouldn’t throw into Quadruple coverage) Brent Pease for UF! by ECFIVESTER on Jan 13, 2012 9:54 AM EST up reply actions Just so you know, if you wouldn’t have said “brain” for the scarecrow, I would have had to look up what the reference was. Yes, I know that the movie (and book) is a political allegory and all, but I’ve seen it twice and struggled to say awake both times. by FlaGators on Jan 13, 2012 10:02 AM EST up reply actions ^^^ showing signs of Anti-Americanism here What’s next? you didn’t like Willy Wonka or the Bad News Bears either?!?! (originals only of course, the remakes don’t exist in my opinion) In all kinds of weather... by skigator93 on Jan 13, 2012 10:48 AM EST up reply actions I like both Willy Wonka and the Bad News Bears. And I haven’t seen any of the remakes they did recently. But no, I do not like Wizard of Oz. It is sooooooooooo boring. The first time I watched it I was like 10. Then in college, in one of my political science classes, I had to write a paper about it, which was the second time I watched it. Fell asleep again. And besides, I’m much more of a fan of another movie that came out in 1939. The movie beat out (and rightfully so) Wizard of Oz for best picture of 1939. Yes … that movie is Gone With The Wind. by FlaGators on Jan 13, 2012 11:02 AM EST up reply actions LOL um … I feel supremely grateful that I can say with the utmost truth, that I have never ever seen Gone with the Wind. And frankly I don’t give a damn. (I just know the most quoted phrase of the movie.) Brent Pease for UF! by ECFIVESTER on Jan 13, 2012 1:31 PM EST up reply actions Yeah, but probably his best line in that movie is when he says: “How fickle is woman.” by FlaGators on Jan 13, 2012 2:28 PM EST up reply actions That's more of a rarely stated fact or is it a question? Brent Pease for UF! by ECFIVESTER on Jan 13, 2012 3:32 PM EST up reply actions It’s stated as fact by Rhett Butler (played by Clark Gable of course). by FlaGators on Jan 13, 2012 4:25 PM EST up reply actions I never saw that movie either despite growing up in Atlanta! I did have to read the book though for American History class. It pretty much sucked….all 1,024 pages of it. In all kinds of weather... by skigator93 on Jan 15, 2012 5:41 PM EST up reply actions Texas Honestly, there are a lot of similarities between UT and UF. They’re both big schools that always do well in recruiting, they both have defenses and special teams that bail out mediocre offense, and they have former Boise coordinators. You guys will likely have some wildcat next year (Demps would’ve been good for it), and you’ll see trick plays, that well “60% of the time, it works, every time” by vinceyoungismyhero on Jan 13, 2012 8:58 PM EST reply actions So we are like the “Sex Panther’s” of college football offenses?!?! I don’t know why, but that sounds fantastic. Considering the past few years anyway. But yeah, it does seem that there are quite a few similarities between the Longhorns and the Gators. by FlaGators on Jan 13, 2012 9:06 PM EST up reply actions I like the ring to that “Sex Gators” Of course this would imply we are fielding an offense worth taking a chance with … Brent Pease for UF! by ECFIVESTER on Jan 17, 2012 8:46 AM EST up reply actions My Username is Related to the Topic... As a Gator-alum living in Austin, the parallels between us and the Longhorns have struck me repeatedly over the last couple of years as they multiplied…I think they are about to diverge from this point on, however: Our Gators have changed their nature, stripped themselves of an abundance of 4- and 5-star clowns, talented head cases and prima donna recruiting mistakes in a program run by a once-great coach gone disinterested and distracted, have in effect “walked through the fire” and come out changed on the other side—lean and rededicated to a fresh approach and outlook, and poised to begin a whole new run as a whole new team. While the Texas Head Coach, Mack Brown has turned out to be more steady in his loyalty to and running of “The 40 Acres” than Urban Meyer’s spectacular success-turned-uneven and strangely fractured tenure at the Swamp, that very “steadiness” has begun to work against him: he is belatedly (and somewhat grudgingly) bringing in new blood, replacing longtime offensive guru and compadre Greg Davis and trying to revive a moribund offense, but so far it’s all mainly window-dressing. With a superb and well-focused recruiting class in the offing and a 2nd-chance “good-fit-this-time” OC with talent and imagination coming in at just the right moment, the Gators may well be poised to begin our much-anticipated climb back to dominance. You don’t get that feeling around the Longhorn program. It’s more a kind of incrementally improving “holding-action” that’s being managed here. by texgator on Jan 15, 2012 2:36 AM EST reply actions 1 recs here here thasa rec Brent Pease for UF! by ECFIVESTER on Jan 17, 2012 8:48 AM EST up reply actions Let's return to the original question... This discussion started out interestingly and on point—then took a wrong turn and degenerated into a “Zook-vs.-Addazio” debate, a ridiculous-to-the-point-of uselessness-and-stupidity argument…Who cares? They were both losers, and they’re both (thankfully) GONE! Regarding Pease, he’s looking more and more the “right choice” that was more suitable from the start: imaginative and energetic, and a “good fit” that suits us and complements Coach Boom in a way Weis never really did—all of which became more and more clear as last season went along. Let’s face it: Weis’ final misrepresentation of his intentions,and the breaking of his supposed “word of honor” about being here “for the long haul with no higher ambitions to move on”, turned out to be a real break for us, a piece of luck that worked out quickly and neatly. God, what a mess if he’d STAYED! Pease has already made a difference here, in this 2012 recruiting class AND the extra general jolt of enthusiasm he has added to the improved chemistry of the whole staff—there will be no separate “offensive squad” even slightly “apart” from the rest of the team now. From what I gather, he and Coach Muschamp are “on the same page” as far as where they want the offensive scheme to be headed in the seasons ahead, and he has already begun to influence the further details of how that will be accomplished, what specific forms it will include, and the kinds of athletes they need to make it happen. His prior experience, including the time spent with Chris Petersen at Boise St., will all add an exciting aggressiveness and free-wheeling style to his own evident imagination and flexibility. While it won’t be hard to improve on last season’s 104th in offense in 2012, I think the offense’s dramatic improvement will continue to accelerate in its own right, to eventually become every bit as formidable as the dominant “D” we’ll field in the course of this season, if healthy. That kind of fire-power is still at least a season away, perhaps, but the offense will at least begin to “hold its own” this season, less often prevent our fine defense from a chance to win games—and, if and when one of the two young QBs steps forward, will begin to show flashes of what it can and will be in the seasons ahead. by texgator on Feb 11, 2012 10

Kentucky Basketball: Your Way Too Early 2012 NBA Draft Projections The 2012 NBA Draft, assuming the NBA has resumed regular basketball operations by that time, is still roughly ten months away. Many of the projected top picks have yet to play even a second of basketball beyond the high school level. But if there's one thing the sports section of the Internet is good at, it's projecting. DraftExpress.com, helmed by the always insightful Jonathan Givony, recently released their updated "Top Prospects" class listings. As you can imagine, they're littered with Kentucky players. With not much going on in the basketball off-season, I thought it could be a fun diversion from all the excellent football and Governor's Cup posts to talk a little hoops. The site has an overall "Top 100" list as well as top prospects for each class--seniors, juniors, sophomores, and freshmen. Given that there's but 60 spots in each year's draft, being ranked the 73rd best prospect in your class probably isn't saying much. Then again, where was Josh Harrellson ranked prior to his breakout senior year? After the jump, an analysis on Kentucky's pro prospects.Anthony Davis DraftExpress Ranking: #1 freshman | #1 overall | #1 in 2012 Mock Draft Why He's Ranked: As has been the trend for the past two years, Kentucky's best professional prospect is a true freshman. Like most freshmen, it's all about the potential, and Davis has that in spades. In the NBA, he could probably be an impact player defensively immediately, using his lanky frame as an effective shot-blocker and rebounder. On the offensive end, he's a freak that will only get freakier. Davis has shooting and ball-handling skills fit for an all-star 6'2" guard, let alone a 6'10" power forward. As he fills his body and picks up an array of post moves, he has a first-team All-NBA ceiling. Still don't believe me? Debate it with the ESPN gurus. Best Draft Case: John Wall. Like Davis, Wall came to Kentucky as arguably the top prospect in his class. After one year, he was the freshman of the year, a player of the year finalist, and the #1 pick in the 2009 NBA Draft. Can Davis put together a freshman season in Wall's stratosphere? It's definitely possible. Worst Draft Case: Perry Jones. Harrison Barnes could also apply here. Both had relatively successful first seasons (Barnes' much more so than Jones'), but both disappointed relative to expectations. Despite being lottery pick locks, both decided to return for their sophomore seasons. While Kentucky fans may selfishly want Davis back for "one more year," having him as Kentucky's second #1 draft pick in three years would be an outstanding feather in Big Blue Nation's cap. Michael Kidd-Gilchrist DraftExpress Ranking: #5 freshman | #9 overall | #8 in 2012 Mock Draft Why He's Ranked: Before late surges from Anthony Davis and Austin Rivers, Kidd-Gilchrist was considered the consensus #1 player in his high school class. Don't worry folks; he's still pretty freaking awesome. The jack-of-all-trades seemingly does everything well (Givony compares him to Scottie Pippen). He'll come in to Kentucky and get starter's minutes without needing the ball in his hands to shine. Best Draft Case: Tristan Thompson. Big things were expected from the Canadian phenom, but a slight dip in Thompson's recruiting rankings during his senior year tempered Texas fans' expectations. But Thompson burst onto to the scene at Texas, and was a stud at everything except hitting his free throws. He parlayed that into getting drafted #4 in 2011, disappointing the Longhorns by not coming back for his sophomore season. Worst Draft Case: Patrick Patterson. Patterson ended up with a nice little career arc. After a couple of lost years due to injury and ineffective coaching, Patterson posted a strong junior campaign and snagged the last spot in the lottery (#14 in 2010) and a bachelor's degree to boot. While I sincerely doubt Kidd-Gilchrist sticks around for three years, it's easy to see a little Patterson in Kidd-Gilchrist. They're both quiet collegiate superstars that make their team better, and that's not always what the NBA wants from five-star talents. Terrence Jones DraftExpress Ranking: #5 sophomore | #15 overall | #12 in 2012 Mock Draft Why He's Ranked: At one point early in the 2010-11 season, Jones was dominant. His name was being bandied about as a potential top five pick in last year's draft. While his production and draft stock fell as the season progressed, he still could have squeezed into the late lottery had he declared. As things turned out, Jones decided to stay at Kentucky for year 2. The draft pool is deeper next year, but Jones will gain more skills and more experience. And hopefully, more draft buzz going into the green room. Best Draft Case: Evan Turner. Evan Turner had a nice freshman season at Ohio State, but his sophomore year was out of this world. If not for Turner, John Wall is probably your 2010 player of the year. In the end, Turner ran roughshod through the Big 10 and vaulted all the way to #2 pick in the 2010 NBA Draft. That would be a nice rise for the sophomore Jones. Worst Draft Case: Ed Davis. There was nothing really wrong with Ed Davis the player. It's just that, whaddaya know, North Carolina fans expect their teams to be NCAA, not NIT-bound. Unfortunately, Davis wasn't quite ready for a starring role during his sophomore season after excelling in a sixth man-type role during his freshman year. Despite the disappointing season, Davis still managed to find himself drafted #13 in 2010. Ah, the intoxication of potential. Marquis Teague DraftExpress Ranking: #12 freshman | #24 overall | #18 in 2012 Mock Draft Why He's Ranked: Say it with me now: "JOHN. CALIPARI. POINT. GUARD." Yeah, he cranks them out, NBA-style. Need more? Umm, Derrick Rose, Tyreke Evans, John Wall, Brandon Knight. Case argued. Best Draft Case: Brandon Knight. The DraftExpress ranking may be a smidgeon low for Teague. That's OK; Brandon Knight wasn't hyped up early last year either. By April, after a fantastic second half of the season and a few clutch plays in the NCAA Tournament, Knight had NBA scouts turning heads. #8 overall in 2011 ain't too shabby. Worst Draft Case: Willie Kemp. Question: who was Calipari's last point guard recruit to not completely kick some tail? That would be Willie Kemp, Calipari's point guard for the 2006-07 season (sharing ball-handling duties with his backcourt mates, sophomores Antonio Anderson and Chris Douglas-Roberts, in the earlier years of the DDMO). Kemp went on to play four undistinguished years at Memphis and spent last season in the NBDL. So, uhh, let's call this the very, very unlikely basement. Doron Lamb DraftExpress Ranking: #15 sophomore | #63 overall | #42 in 2012 Mock Draft Why He's Ranked: There was some talk that Lamb could have thrown his name into last year's NBA Draft after a quietly excellent freshman season at Kentucky. Luckily for Wildcats fans, he and fellow freshman Terrence Jones chose to return. As Kentucky's starting 2 guard, Lamb hopes to follow in the footsteps of former Cat Eric Bledsoe. He'll get limited opportunities to run the offense as a backup 1, but if he can prove that he's a bulls-eye shooter and effective slasher, teams will believe those point guard skills will come in the Association. Best Draft Case: Jimmer Fredette. Jimmer-mania swept Provo, Utah last season. After getting drafted #10 in the 2011 Draft, he's taking his talents to Milwaukee. Can we get a little Doron-mania in Lexington? John Calipari calls Lamb Kentucky's best player. And while that may be a little ego-stroking, it's not like Lamb is chopped liver. As mentioned, he won't get many chances to shine as a true point guard. But he will still be heavily involved in Kentucky's offense, and as the second-man in the DDMO, he can get buckets with the best of them. Worst Draft Case: Willie Warren. Once upon a time, Warren had first round potential after a sizzling freshman year. Instead, he chose to return to school at Oklahoma. Big mistake. A combination of injuries and selfish teammates derailed Warren's season, and Oklahoma went nowhere but to the bottom of the Big 12 standings. Unlike Patrick Patterson, whom Calipari convinced to return for his junior season, Warren bolted Norman and settled for #54 in 2010. Ryan Harrow DraftExpress Ranking: #81 freshman | NR overall | #10 in 2013 Mock Draft Why He's Ranked: Harrow won't suit up for Kentucky next year after transferring from NC State, but he's expected to take over at point guard come the 2012-13 season. Need more? See Teague, Marquis, above. Seriously, Harrow is just one year removed from being a 5* prospect. Yes, his one year at NC State was disappointing. But he will have two to learn from the point guard Yoda, John Calipari. Best Draft Case: Ekpe Udoh. Udoh transferred from Michigan to Baylor and turned some heads. He led the Big 10 in blocked shots during his freshman year, then turned the same trick in the Big 12 as a junior. Call it talent maximization. Teaming with a fearsome backcourt (Tweety Carter and LaceDarius Dunn), the defensive wizard created a Bear frenzy as Baylor charged to the Elite 8. Golden State was enamored, and picked him up at #6 in the 2010 Draft. Worst Draft Case: Darnell Dodson. Kentucky fans remember Darnell Dodson, but not fondly. John Calipari was excited to bring on this highly touted junior college transfer in his first Kentucky class with John Wall and DeMarcus Cousins. Dodson was expected to bring length and instant offense to the shooting guard spot. Instead, he never earned a starting spot, ceding the role to Eric Bledsoe. He could have had another chance last year, especially after Bledsoe declared for the draft, but transferred to Southern Miss instead (he's no longer there, either). Calipari has actively chosen not to recruit a point guard in the 2012 class, meaning if Teague declares as expected, the job is there for Harrow. Now he just has to go earn it. Darius Miller DraftExpress Ranking: #27 senior | NR overall | UD in 2012 Mock Draft Why He's Ranked: Miller has been a strong contributor to the Kentucky program in each of his first three years. But here's the deal: his time is running out. He has one more year to prove to NBA evaluators that he has the chops to make it in the league. Miller has prototypical size for an NBA swingman. He can shoot, pass, and defend. The question is, can he do all three well enough to get drafted? Some more confidence might help. Best Draft Case: Terrence Williams. It is Louisville Hate Week, after all. Like so many of the Fightin' Pitinos, Williams was an all-world talent with a questionable head between his shoulders. He got his act together during his senior year, though, becoming a more efficient scorer and a load on the defensive end. As a result, he was drafted #11 in 2009. If the same thing is going to happen for Miller, it has to happen this year. Worst Draft Case: Edgar Sosa. There may not be a recent ex-Cardinal that Wildcats fans hate more than Edgar Sosa (although Marvin Stone and Francisco Garcia present strong cases). Cut from a long lineage of cocky, NYC playground point guards, Sosa burst onto the scene as a freshman scoring spark. His play was often best described as out of control, and he never really did learn how to lead a team. Louisville went 31-6 and made it to the Elite 8 during Williams' senior season. Sosa's? 20-13, one-and-done. Would it surprise you to know that Sosa wasn't drafted? Kyle Wiltjer DraftExpress Ranking: #26 freshman | NR overall | NR in Mock Drafts Why He's Ranked: Wiltjer is the least heralded of Kentucky's fantastic four freshmen, but he's still a 5 star talent. His lanky frame and smooth stroke may remind Kentucky fans of Tayshaun Prince, but Wiltjer is no one-trick pony. He's a fundamental big man, with a Swiss army knife array of post moves, the most exciting of which is a running jump hook. Some of those in Big Blue Nation think he'll burst on the scene and surprise, so don't be taken aback if (when?) that happens. Best Draft Case: Eric Bledsoe. When Bledsoe first committed to Kentucky, some recruitniks scoffed. How would he shine playing off the ball with the best recruit in the class, John Wall? Well, Bledsoe did what all great ballers do. He redefined his game. Freed from leading an offense, he became a deadly shooter and a stout on-ball defender, earning a starting job in the process. When Bledsoe declared for the draft after one year, some draftniks scoffed. Well, he showed critics up again, getting drafted #18 overall and putting together a nice rookie campaign with the Clippers. Worst Draft Case: Stacey Poole. Poole was Kentucky's first commitment in the 2010 recruiting class, and like Bledsoe and Wiltjer, was overshadowed by other recruits with more accolades. Unlike Bledsoe, Poole's freshman year was not kind to him. Poole hardly ever got off the bench, and played just 45 minutes on the season. He considered transferring, but chose to stay. It could turn out to be a wise decision, as he's slated to be the backup 2-guard to Doron Lamb. Stacey Poole DraftExpress Ranking: #56 sophomore | NR overall | NR in Mock Drafts Why He's Ranked: Speak of the devil. Despite having not shown anything at the collegiate level, Poole checks in on the DraftExpress sophomore board. It's not like Poole is devoid of talent. Had he gone to, say, Western Kentucky, he'd probably have sprouted a pretty good stat line last year. As it stands, it's an uphill road for Poole to prove he belongs at the high major level. The former four star will get his chance starting this year as a backup swingman. Baby steps, Stacey. If he proves himself, there's a starting job waiting during his junior year. Then we can start talking draft potential. Best Draft Case: Josh Harrellson. Hey, remember how Harrellson played only 88 minutes during his junior season? Thanks to the travesty that is the NCAA, Kentucky fans never got to see Turkish delight Enes Kanter play a game. But when the NCAA closes a door, Calipari opens a window. Harrellson barreled through, lighting up Jared Sullinger in the process. Seriously, that fine performance against the uber-freshman proved to many that Harrellson had NBA potential. The Knicks certainly thought so, taking a second-round flyer on him in 2011 at #45. Worst Draft Case: AJ Stewart. I'll be honest. I was excited to see what AJ Stewart would become as a Wildcat. When he was first recruited by Tubby Smith, I saw a scrappy, junkyard dog type player in the mold of Gerald Fitch or Erik Daniels. Unfortunately, Stewart struggled on the court, and exhibited more of an immature and tempermental attitude. When Calipari came, he sorted the wheat from the chaff. Harrellson stayed. Stewart didn't. So far, Poole's still here, so that's a good sign. | 2 recs | Do you like this story? Nice to see So many Cats being mentioned in mock drafts! It will be interesting to see what unfolds,after the NBA lockout.So many things could easily change. by wkcatfan on Sep 16, 2011 8:36 AM EDT reply actions It is. But it’s nothing new. And that feels really good. :-) A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan by Glenn Logan on Sep 16, 2011 9:19 AM EDT up reply actions I just pray that Darius will step up and release his inner basketball beast - it's do or die time Baby..! A man is nothing more than a summation of his scars! by KansasUKCat on Sep 16, 2011 9:46 AM EDT reply actions Indeed. Regardless of all the talent on the team this year, the key to putting this team in talks for being an all time great time is Darius stepping up and being the player we all know he can be. by Clint Phelps on Sep 16, 2011 10:06 AM EDT up reply actions A remarkable statement: “While Kentucky fans may selfishly want Davis back for ‘one more year,’ having him as Kentucky’s second #1 draft pick in three years would be an outstanding feather in Big Blue Nation’s cap.” I never thought I’d hear a Kentucky fan say he’d rather see our best talent leave. One-and-done is not something to wish for. It’s something we’re forced to live with. Elevating it as jc does here strikes me as something of a Stockholm Syndrome. I hesitate to bring up the ethical implications of calling someone selfish. It’s a misdirected and self-defeating allegation, as the “feather in our cap” remark betrays (not Anthony’s cap, our cap). It’s an attempt to foster unearned guilt for having wants. I make no apologies for being a Kentucky fan, or for wanting Davis to return his sophomore year. by Wheatgerm on Sep 16, 2011 11:45 AM EDT reply actions I think he meant it as a consolation prize If Davis does what is best for his financial future and goes to the draft, and he goes #1 overall than the prestige and recruiting benefits will somewhat make up for the lack of a sophmore season. If he chooses to come back for any reason that is obviously a gain for us in all but a limited set of scenarios. "Come test me every day if you want," says Pujols, "Everything I ever made in this game I would give back to the Cardinals if I got caught." by StLHugo on Sep 16, 2011 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions Very interesting psychological perspective, Wheatgerm First of all, I think you’re overstating the use of ‘selfish’. In no way did I mean it to be malicious or “unethical”. I did, however, mean to say that wanting to see Davis return is being concerned primarily with one’s own interests. What I mean is that, as a Kentucky fan wanting to win National Championships, I would LOVE to see Davis come back as a sophomore, because I think it would be a huge step towards my personal fan preference. However, as a Kentucky fan wanting the best for his program, I see no problem in saying I’d want him to leave if he’s going to get selected #1. Yes, I’ll feel disappointed that he’s not back to help us win a(nother?!) Championship. But I do think Davis taking his talents to the NBA is a feather in the cap of Kentucky as a program and a fanbase. As StLHugo mentions, it increases prestige for the Kentucky brand and the Calipari coaching staff, and it makes future recruits want to ply their talents at Lexington. So yeah, Stockholm Syndrome it up. Davis will have captured my attention for a year, and in return, I want the best for him financially, academically, and professionally (and alumni-y!). #1 with a bullet. by jc25 on Sep 16, 2011 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs Good post jc I particularly like the inclusion of the best/worst case scenarios for each player. Frankly, I have no problem wanting to be selfish and seeing Davis etal back for another season! When it comes to Darius, the quality of his play is already superb. The biggest leap he could make would be taking more shots – even if some of them are “bad”. He’s been a highly efficient scorer the last 2 seasons and a good bit of that has been his ability to be very selective on his shots which fits in well with the talent on the team during that time. He can certainly do that again this year and it will be valuable, but he could also push things a bit more and produce more points even if his efficiency drops a bit. Age is always advancing. And I believe it's up to no good. - Harry Dresden by JLeverenz on Sep 17, 2011 10:19 AM EDT reply actions A few things ... I like the MKG comparison to Patterson in terms of players who make their teams better having a tough-to-quantify effect. The knock on Kidd-Gilchrist is his jumper, and that will have to be shown to be consistent for him to get Battier-type NBA attention. Lastly, and it may have been the way it was written, but Evan Turner played three years in Columbus, and his junior year was his POY season. Just a minor thing. Nice writeup. The Heart & Mind of the Big Blue Nation ... by JL Blue on Sep 21, 2011 11:10!

They. 12 February 2007 3:46PM If only Kenyon, Dein, Parry et al behaved like that, the Premiership would be so much more interesting. 12 February 2007 3:54PM I hope he gets his legs caught in some massive, byzantine knot in the ropes that hang from the ceiling (I assume the gyms at the worlds greatest clubs are fundamentally similar to the one at my old school), and that he misses the first leg of the Champions League match against us whilst he unties himself. 12 February 2007 4:03PM How come there seems to be rumblings of discontent at Barca with Etoo and supposedly Ronaldinho unhappy? Is leading La Liga, being reigning Champions League winners, playing to a packed Nou Camp that adore you and living in sunny Barca not enough for these men? 12 February 2007 4:17PM I'll be watching fiebre maldini tonight, no doubt they'll have some quality images to show for that one. There was also some crowd action last night in the calderon but nobody from canal + managed to suss out what was happening, it involved a black guy and some fellow atleti fans forcing him towards the exit. also, Atleti should (but 100% believe they wouldn't) get a sanction for that polital display the Frente put on last night. Everybody is against terrorism but to hang that banner up whilst the basques are in town was not bloody on! Nothing but a bunch of *******. I'm an Atleti fan! PS. Well done azulones. Keep up the quality work. I'm starting to think Quique is letting them win since he'll back to the alfonso perez next year. Schuster will no doubt go to Valencia or some other big club. God help him. 12 February 2007 4:24PM Thanks, Sid for the usual elaborate details of your report on the Sevilla derby. Although the local media did mention that there were 'rumblings' in the palco between Lopera and Del Nido, no specifics were given. I can't for the life of me understand whats going on with Eto'o. I watched the match on TV; saw him warming up with Gio and all of a sudden they clambered back in the 'banquillo'. I have a very strong feeling that at this rate he is on an auto-destruct mode and I will not be surprised if he fined for his indolence - and deservedly too. 12 February 2007 4:26PM cavelier5 Never underestimate the insatiable desires of those 21st century gluttons known as professional footballers. Then again never overestimate journalistic 'facts'. Personally, I'm not sure as to how true the rumours even are. The links always seem to be to Milan, even though that is a team (and to some extent league) in decline. Can Italian teams even afford him? The only other option would be the Prem, and while that may attract Eto, I think little Ronnie would give it a miss. 12 February 2007 4:31PM Eto'o is not fit. He needs physical exercise, not ball practice. He's not the type of player who's happy with five minutes at the end. It'll all sort itself out. Last night was great news for Barça as it was the first time in months they created so many clear cut chances, hit the post a couple of times and scored two as well as Victor saving a penalty. Interesting to see Edmilson centre back and Marquez in holding position in midfield. It seemed to work. And , oh yeah, Messi's back. 12 February 2007 4:43PM By the way, I realise it was almost certainly too late for most of you but when I finally got the chance I did eventually post a reply last week (and some minor follow ups). Cheers 12 February 2007 4:44PM I think that the attitude of Del Nido and Lopera should not be taken lightly. It may be fun to read about, but arousing people's lowest passions does not help to enjoy a peaceful atmosphere in the games. Ask the Italians or the Argentinians. And the record of violent incidents between Betis and Sevilla fans is not short either. In contrast, this weekend there was the Basketball Cup in Malaga. Eight teams with their supporters sharing the same basketball court for four days. No insults, no violent incidents, no object-throwing ... 12 February 2007 4:56PM ... and no racist chants either 12 February 2007 5:00PM Sounds pretty dull to me, but then I could never really get into basketball. 12 February 2007 5:06PM Even though I love the way Eto'o plays, his ego does seem to get in the way quite often... My guess is that he didn't want to play for just 5 minutes and was specially angry when Messi entered the pitch before him and was lovingly welcomed by all the public in the Camp Nou. On the other hand, I think that Barcelona will start to display their best football now, just when they have to. And congrats to elpenya for their victory in balaidos ;) 12 February 2007 5:21PM Thanks to the Atletico supporter for his comments about that appalling banner in the Calderon last night: As an Athletic fan, it struck me as odd that i went into the ground i was made to take the cap off my tiny water bottle (par for the course, cos it stops you throwing it full and heavy onto the pitch) while the Frente Atletico were able to 'sneak' 2 huge banners - around 15 metres each - into their stands.......Even Jesus Gil coulnd't have snuck it in under his 'high and mighty' shirt. Which sort of implies collusion from the club. So the club helped create an atmosphere that could have led to problems and nothing will happen to them I'm certain. of course what makes it even more pathetic is that it was people related to the Frente Atletico who murdered Real Sociedad fan Aitor Zabaleta 9 years ago...Nor was it nice to hear the song 'puta ETA, puta Zabaleta' from a section of the Calderon..... Anyhow, after another unpleasant and frankly depressing night in the Calderon, it's good to know that not all Atletico fans are like their nasty ultras cheers 12 February 2007 5:34PM I'm intrigued. What did the banner in the Calderon say? 12 February 2007 5:57PM As posted in the relevant blog at the time, the Atlético fans attending their match at the Camp Nou also shouted, whistled, booed, and hurled abuse throughout the minute's silence/cello music for the three Recreativo fans who had been killed in a car crash that weekend. With regards to Sid's article, if it is true that the statue rejection was announced to the stadium, that must surely have some repercussions? 12 February 2007 5:59PM This Betis Sevilla derby is so overblown and full of its own importance when really its just a pointless game between 2 paleto hick sides from the back of beyond, nobody gives a crap about this fixture apart from the wurzels that live in Seville, more often than not there is so much mock outrage and pantomime it ends in a nil all draw with about on average 6 reds and 25 yellows. By the way Sid, ANDRES MONTES and his pals on LASEXTA with their usual inane comment made what was already a crap game even worse. 12 February 2007 6:07PM Sid, thanks for the insight on this... another city of brotherly love. I was expecting some commentary on Goldenballs and his return; what's the spin on that? You do not need to justify yourself (see you last post on the Madrid piece); you are a fine writer, with an acid wit... don't lose it. Finally; what's happened to Toothy Teresa and Rayo V? 12 February 2007 6:09PM Sid - total quality once again. Easily the best football writer at work today. Ever considered a return to these shores to cover the premiership ? No, didn't think so and can't say I blame you... ps any news on why the links to your GU back catalogue aren't working ? 12 February 2007 6:14PM Hollins sorry to have to pi55 on your bonfire, but there are lots of people who care about Seville and Betis, and every other side in La Liga, apart from the obvious...Most people, like me, couldn't give a flying one who wins, as long as it's not the girls in white who roll around and dance for Franco's plaything. All most of us want is to see them end every season with nada. Going along very nicely at the moment, thanks Best wishes etc... 12 February 2007 6:17PM Gomez eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee, no understand 12 February 2007 6:18PM Hollins LOL !! Respect, feller !!! 12 February 2007 6:19PM COMO,COMO cOMO 12 February 2007 6:22PM Ok you want to see girls in white rolling around, i think you are on the wrong blog Sr Gomez. 12 February 2007 7:20PM I almost wish I'd been there! (I wish Beckham had just spent a month on loan at the Ricoh, probably still be crap though!) 12 February 2007 7:48PM Sid Lowe wrote a great essay on the director's box. A top class! 12 February 2007 7:58PM Sid- you are the greatest! Consistently very funny. Ask for a rise. 12 February 2007 8:11PM Once again I was able to catch the highlights on TV. I have to say - what a scruffy team. No style. I thought Seville was renowned for hairdressing? And do the local hooligans wear those waxed jackets? I'll get mine... 12 February 2007 8:45PM Amazing how MIRO either repeats what he wrote before or repeats what others write. 12 February 2007 8:52PM Are club presidents usually interviewed after the match in Spain? And why does no-one write as entertainingly about English football as Sid does about Spanish football? Are they scared because (unlike Sid) those written about might read it? Or is Spanish football just a much better subject matter? If Sean Ingle reads this, I'd love a foreign journalist to write a similar style column about English football, maybe see how English people appreciate it (taking us back to last week's column). Anyone else agree? 12 February 2007 8:54PM I think Del Nido is pushing the classical rivalry between Betis and Sevilla too far, beyond what in my opinion is acceptable. If such behaviours are going to be accepted, I think I am going to lose interest for football in a short time. 12 February 2007 8:57PM Blimey, Hollins, you must be bored if you're picking on miro. I'm just about to have my dinner but if you can think of something to row about, I can fit you in with the sobremesa... 12 February 2007 9:13PM Is leading La Liga, being reigning Champions League winners, playing to a packed Nou Camp that adore you and living in sunny Barca not enough for these men? (Cavalier5 dixit) I don't want to be picky or anything, but Barça is used only for the club, never for the city itself. I agree however that some of these footballers seem to be lacking in the brain department. 12 February 2007 9:20PM Hollins You spot it! I write what I was told and I usualy repeat what the others said. I also write what I like to read and sometimes I write what I don't know but what I love. I also write what I feel right and I write what I mean. What about you mate? Do you write what you know just because you know more than you think? What makes you write what you write? Do you mean what you write? Or you only write what you mean? Do you write thank-you letters or you always write just to provoke the others to write? 12 February 2007 9:46PM Things are never easy at Camp Nou, the club is almost like an alternative ego/conscience, which is why the fans are so critical. The reason Ronaldinho has not been happy are various and obviously depending on who you listen to. Everything from as simple as he is not playing well, to problems with the mother of his child, to rows with the non brasilians to him wanting a move. Eto'o is just like that, but that is another story. Barcelona has often attracted the best players, but many times haunted them out of the club with neurotic behaviour. 12 February 2007 9:58PM "I don't want to be picky or anything, but Bar�a is used only for the club, never for the city itself." Barna is used for the city. 12 February 2007 10:34PM OurManFlint, Barna is used sometimes in postal adresses. Apart from that, posh teenagers from Sarria or Pedralbes used it for a while in the eighties (mainly in Spanish). Anyway, I was talkimg about Barsa 12 February 2007 10:47PM I find it incredibly funny finding debates in the guardian about the usages of barna and barsa... A very common mistake, by the way. Another commmon one is talking of the "primera liga", jajaja you brits... almogaver from barna supporting barsa 12 February 2007 11:01PM The spats between these teams' followers always make for glorious human interest news items. I remember one a few years ago about two bars in the centre of Seville; one Sevilla, one Betis. One bar was outraged that the other had sunk so low as to celebrate the relegation of the other's team so a few years later they decided to return the favour. It's definitely nothing to do with retaining the moral high ground. 12 February 2007 11:08PM Entertaining article but I've never read a blog with so many contributors so anxious to demonstrate their local knowledge/street cred (you know who you are). If you are all so well informed ask Sid for his job - if not, don't be so bloody anal. 13 February 2007 12:04AM Great article, didn't quite make me spit my coffee like the one with the "closet" reference, but great all the same. Don Manuel seems to be doing his best to be loved by the Beticos by stirring up tensions to keep the fans eyes of the pitch. Wouldn't mind betting the tannoy announcement was his idea, although the tannoy is so bloody bad at the stadium I'm amazed anyone heard what was said! If he keeps this up no-one will notice that we need him to get his wallet out and invest in some quality, and not the fell-off-a-back-of-the-lorry crap we've been getting over the last couple of years. Still at least now, I'm pretty sure, we'll still have the Derby next year, was looking a folorn hope only a few weeks ago. Will be looking forward to some more songs for the FA cup! I'd like to hear you have a go at translating "F*** em all" by the Stamford Bridge Choir. Any chance? 13 February 2007 2:44AM Blogger Statistics: 90% of bloggers write to provoke 5% of bloggers write to defend 3% of bloggers write to embellish themselves 1.5% of bloggers write to let other bloggers know they are still alive 0.3% of bloggers write because they think they know the author 0.2% of bloggers write because there is nothing else to do 13 February 2007 3:33AM 0.01% of bloggers write to throw other bloggers' carefully calculated statistics off by 0.01% 13 February 2007 8:19AM AW Miro, im only messin with ye, go and paint another picture and cheer up 13 February 2007 9:13AM Excellent piece,Sid.Now,what about Mr.Etoo?Will he still be at Barca next season after his petulant refusal to enter the game as sub with 7 minutes remaining?Is it a case of "this town aint big enough for the both of us,Ronaldinho"...so - either you go or I go?Or is it just his supersized ego in meltdown?Do you fancy Gijon to scrape into the top league? 13 February 2007 9:23 craker, wasn't it? 13 February 2007 9:24 cracker, wasn't it? 13 February 2007 11:10AM Cheers for all your posts. "Oh, look, the president of Sevilla!" Would have loved to have seen Lopera's face! Having never been in the palco at Betis, the geography of it may not be 100% accurate, although I was talked through it by someone who has been there. Who was there, in fact. And the fact that the seat (as opposed to the original receiving of the trophy) was near to the bust is a quote from the Sevilla vice-president. There is bound to be some confusion abuot what was actually said, too, but yes you're right that the papers today are saying "same gay face as your uncle". But yesterday, my contact in Seville was say "as gay as". Cheers 13 February 2007 11:32AM with eto'o warming up on the sidelines, the cameras were all over him. then beletti fell clumsily on his shoulder and eto'o watched on and then smiled, shook his head as he looked over to the barca bench. as the commentators debated whether the brazilian gad dived or not, eto'o was smiling for a different reason. in an instant he understood he won't be coming on as rijkaard's last sub. classic. guess it's time for the superstars to get unhappy now. three seasons mark the end of a natural cycle in sport. the dream team would have only lasted this long anyway. of course, it be great to be proved otherwise. and yes, sid's emplyoment of the mini-bar raid was perfect. just the thought this side of the globe when the keeper picked up the tiny bottle and saw it was empty... 13 February 2007 11:57AM Sad to see more racist training at the Seville derby, that will be another 600€ slap on the wrist then. Is this a cultural(sic) thing as British clubs would get whacked for doings this in the SPL or epl? Not heard any reports on Athletic's last couple of games. Are los Leones in crisis again? Gora Athletic! 13 February 2007 12:13PM To PaulfromHull and Skinnywhiteboy. No, not all of us Atleti fans are like those morons who unfurled that appalling banner, In fact most of us are just decent football fans who feel passion for our team. And not many have any particular grip about Athletic Bilbao either, they just happened to be this weekend's rival, who we needed to beat to keep European hopes alive, that's all. And I, for one, wouldn't like Bilbao to go down, Anyway, the banner, skinnywhiteboy, read "De Juana - 25 razones para morirte de hambre" ("De Juana - 25 reasons for you to die of hunger"). Iñaki de Juana Chaos is a convicted ETA killer with 25 deaths on his hands. He was originally sentenced to 3000 years for the killings but, with the justice system being as it is, would be up for release quite soon, I believe. He's currently on hunger strike, 90-plus days now, as he was found guilty of incitement to terrorism for comments made in a couple of articles he published, from his prison cell, in the newspaper 'Gara'. His case featured in The Times last week: If the sentence for these other charges is upheld (he's currently in preventive prison for those charges) then he would not be released as scheduled but have to serve a further sentence - hence the hunger strike. In fact, only yesterday, the Supreme Court ruling reduced that sentence from 12 years to 3. See todays Times: which means he could be out within about a year. As this is a football blog I don't even want to go into the whole Basque question, but just explain what the reference in earlier posts to the banner was about. I do, though, think it's appalling that the Frente Atletico should see fit to bring these issues into a football stadium and felt ashamed, especially when pople started chanting "De Juana muérete" ("De Juan - Die!") which, I think, is stooping as low as the subject of the banner, actually. Does this help? Cheers

. 12 February 2007 1:38PM Spot on. What a sportsman. 12 February 2007 1:38PM At last, someone has the good sense to bring this to everyone's attention. To the above examples, you can add regularly celebrating goals in front of opposition fans. He may be a magnificent footballer, but he needs to learn a touch of humility on the field. Very rarely does he come up trumps against the best in the big matches (witness his failures in both major cup finals last year when faced with top quality defenders of Puyol and Cannavaro's ilk. 12 February 2007 1:43PM I thought it was funny myself. Wigan had been wasting time since the first minute and I don't expect Henry to do anything I would not have done on the parks as a kid. Far from it being evidence of a loveless marriage (where do these journo's learn their cod-psychology? Tescos?) I thought it showed good team spirit, the sort of thing sporting teams need. If the media want to build up icons to knock down that's their business. I just want Arse to win and Henry & Co to break balls doing it. Lehman was hilarious too, but not surprisingly his Germannic humour was not subtle enough for the referee. 12 February 2007 1:45PM "Excruciatingly self-serving". Right on the money. 12 February 2007 1:45PM ok he is not as nice or as wonderful as he thinks he is. ok he did not cover himself in glory, though i think what lehmann did was more ridiculous. but he is not a big game bottler. he has scored in a lot of so called big games. of course he would score more against the so called smaller teams. that is natural. he scores more against bad defences and less against good defences. well isnt that the case with all the great strikers. rooney for eg. is always feted and hyped. but he does not perform that well in big games either. 12 February 2007 1:45PM He does seem like a genuinely likable man off the field, but he is extremely petchulant on it. Witness his repeated cupping of the ear at opposing fans celebration. Needs to tone it down a bit. 12 February 2007 1:46PM I've never understood the myth that Henry is the nicest footballer around. One of the best yes..........nicest never! Having said that there are still a lot worse! 12 February 2007 1:46PM He can be annoying at times but usually manages to overshadow his petulance with his sublime skill. Sadly, many of his teammates behave - and play - far worse than TH. 12 February 2007 1:48PM Question: If Henry was ever to score in a meaningful international against Spain, would he be condemned or condoned if he celebrated in front of Aragones? 12 February 2007 1:48PM Here we go! The politics of envy as practised at the very top! Well done! 12 February 2007 1:48PM Kevin Nolan will try those sort of antics week in and week and it is accepted and hardly ever picked up in the media.Henry's reaction although rather unsavoury and not to mention uncharacteristic is something that happens every week.Have we all forgotten Alan Shearer in his pomp goading a rather irate Roy Keane at St James's Park? Goading him so much he got himself sent off.Spoken like someone who's bias lies in manchester. 12 February 2007 1:48PM What precisely did Henry do yesterday? What does the word ''reprehensible'' mean? ...''Reprehensible in the extreme''.... Has this Smythe fellow ever played any sport at all? As for '' As the likes of Roger Federer, Andrew Flintoff and Tiger Woods have shown, greatness in sport is defined by so much more than performance.'' What is Flintoff's greatness? Didn't England just lose a Test Match Series 5-0? 12 February 2007 1:49PM Great question LJ - surely he'd be let off that one; lesser of two evils and all... Boy wouldn't it be great to see though. 12 February 2007 1:50PM Nicely said, suitone! 12 February 2007 1:50PM Henry is a great man and sportsman as a whole. Nevertheless, his act yesterday was really bad, maybe caused by a provocation, but who knows who started what? (I don't) This article about Henry looks like Zidane's big issue after the WC, despite the fact that this time none was hit and that I have no idea of Wigan's goalie's personality nor I have seen any talks going on between the two of them. As I said then, I repeat it now. None of us is saint and everyone can make mistakes. Some make more than others (and this is not the case of Henry, at least so far), but we are not judging the person here, but the mistake he made, which is bad despite the possible (and yet to be proven) provocation he received previously. Said that. I hope we had more players like Henry around, and fewer people prone to sanctify football players, who can be very good or bad guys but are all human beings and every once in a while make mistakes as we all do. So bad act, but not bad person, even though unperfect. 12 February 2007 1:51PM Henry is a flash mug. Poor mans Marlon Harewood. 12 February 2007 1:54PM Good old Rob Smyth. You can rely on him to get his usual quota of examples of wrongdoings against Man Utd in an article. And as for the revelation that Henry is not as effective against world-class defenders as he is against those struggling at the lower end of the Premiership... startling stuff. What Henry did was vulgar and pathetic, but you get similar examples of bad sportsmanship week in, week out in the Premiership. It's just that when Henry is responsible, Chelsea, Liverpool and Arsenal fans like to claim the moral high ground; when it's Cristiano Ronaldo, Gunners, Liverpool and Chelsea do the same, and so on and so on. As tedious as it is unpalatable. 12 February 2007 1:54PM Kyhber In what parallel universe? 12 February 2007 1:55PM I thought it was great. Kirkland had consistently been wasting time, and he got his comeuppance. Arsenal wanted to play football, and Kirkland wanted to waste time. I will go for watching the football and not for watching a goalkeeper taking forever to take a goalkick anytime. (The same criticsm, of course, applies to Lehmann). 12 February 2007 1:56PM Wrongdoings against Man Utd? - Henry as big game bottler? Ah, Smyth must still be bothered by Henry's winner against Man Utd the other week! all becomes clear...... 12 February 2007 1:56. 12 February 2007 1:57PM This is a great article and every word rings with truth. Ivan Drago is one of those spoken about in the article and he would probably hail Henry as the greatest man alive no matter what he did, as long as his arrogance continues to deliver goals. Anyone that knows Rob Smyth (and I don't - not really anyways) would know that his articles - and comments in the podcast - are almost always controversial and spot on. 12 February 2007 1:57PM Henry's behaviour can be a little unedifying at times, although I'm glad the camera isn't on me at work as much as it's on him. Giving a little back, after scoring against opponents happy to expolit the rules as far as gamesmanship allows, is hardly a huge sin. I hate seeing defenders foul a forward whom they then stand over screaming cheat etc no doubt accompanied by "unintended" spittle, while the forward is still on the ground, sometimes genuinely injured. How forwards take this treatment without jumping to their feet and flooring the defender is beyond me. Which team do you support again Rob? 12 February 2007 1:59PM Well put Rob. Love this, "excruciatingly self-serving" - perfect Maybe it's a bit early to start this argument but what the hell.. What Drogba's lacking of Henry's touch he certainly makes up for in humility. All he needed was a hug from the fans and he's been banging them in and smiling (with fun not bow down-ness) ever since. I'm not saying he's not super confident, (these obv being necessary traits of top sportsmen) but he does seem to need and love his team; not be "the King of France, N7" 12 February 2007 2:00PM henry + lehman = dumb and dumber? 12 February 2007 2:00PM This is cheap bile from a writer who has really nothing else worthwhile to offer. So Henry`s sarcasm was the worst thing to happen over this premiership weekend. Yes it was a cheapshot but there was nothing in the article about the blatantly unsporting play of Kirkland and Wigan throughout the entire match. I hope the writer ws similarly incensed when Van Persie was rabbit punched in the kidneys by a Sheffield wed defender. Yes, even we Gunners fans wish Thierry would drop a bit of the self love that obviously afflicts him. But who else at the top of his game does not have the same type of narcisstic streak to a degree, Even the paragons of virtue you suggest are nothing but, given the right circumstances. Must guess you've probably been waiting for years to have a pop at the chap. How pleased you must feel with yourself now. Go on, give the mirror a sweet kiss you know you want to. 12 February 2007 2:01PM big-game bottler, big fish in small pond, etc no. henry was the only striker who gave cannavaro any sort of trouble in the entire WC. and you cannot exactly say arsenal is a smaller pond than, for example, inter. his post-WC final behaviour, coming moments after what must have been a very emotional defeat, compares very favourably with that of his teammates - abidal, malouda, sagnol, thuram, and zidane to name a few. still, i agree with the general tone of the article - he is not the angel the media makes him out to be. one example of a genuinely good footballer that does spring to mind (there are surely others) is damiano tommasi, now with levante. 12 February 2007 2:02PM You'd think it would be possible to keep this things in perspective. It was a pretty stupid incident but at least Thierry apologised afterwards. Even Paul Jewell didn't bother to bring it up, rightly choosing to direct his anger at the incompetant ref. While I agree that he has a manner about him that sometimes seems intensely arrogant, but he is after all the finest player on one of the slickest football teams around - arrogance is central to the game plan, both for him and for the club. Personally I can put up with his gallic eccentricites as long as he remains the prem's most watchable footballer. Rather him than achilles tendon stamping Scousers anyway. 12 February 2007 2:04PM Capaddona February 12, 2007 01:54 PM In my world! Only joking, obviously. Henry is a class player, but he is arrogant beyond belief and typifies Arsenal as a whole. Great team, fantastic free flowing football, but if you try to nullify that or the way they play then they just cant stand it. It is the same with all of the 'big' teams now. Like Everton at Liverpool a couple of weeks ago, or Tottenham and Chelsea last season. If you dont lay down and let them walk all over you then you are a disgrace. If you try to go to their grounds, play defensive / counter attacking and try to stop them playing, then your team are taking liberties. Hence Arsenal walkinmg off not shaking the oppositions hand when they lose or if they lose its always the referee's fault. Same with Henry. Wigan were playing a great game of football and Arsenal / Henry couldnt stand it. They were time wasting as they were protecting a 1 nil lead. How dare they! Arsenal would never go away from home in Europe, play one up front, pack the midfield out, time waste to protect a lead. Henry just sums up the arrogance of Arsenal in general. I am a west ham fan and I have to say that Wigan were very unlucky yesterday. 12 February 2007 2:04PM Im glad someone else noticed how incredibly pathetic it was to see Henry celebrating goals during the carling cup on the pitch when he wasnt even playing. That odd dance the arsenal players feel inclined to do after either Henry or Abedayor score is just cringe worthy and odd to the extreme when you consider Henry wasnt even playing on one of those occasions. The man is a genius footballer but he has zero class, as was demonstrated by his actions yesterday. He couldnt even admit he was in the wrong, he made up some excuse about it being a joke. Maybe its that gallic sense of humour we dont quite understand, but he was lucky it didnt start a mass brawl on the pitch. Anyone that has played any level of football knows what it feels like to have a game stolen from you in the last 10 minutes and to have it smeared in your face is just completely out of order. 12 February 2007 2:04PM I'm really glad Henry did what he did. Not because Kirkland deserved it, but because it has finally brought to people's attention what a twirp he really is. Not that his antics were any great crime. They just showed a complete lack of class. And this from a man who apparantly oozes it. Again, lacking class is no biggie. I just hope this makes people see. Henry is an obscenely talented 10-year-old in a man's body. I'm a Manchester United fan but Gary Neville's antics against Liverpool last year had the same impact on me. Grow up, the lot of you. 12 February 2007 2:04PM "Roger Federer, Andrew Flintoff and Tiger Woods" Flintoff seems like a nice guy and a decent player but come on! The most ridiculous sentence I have seen in a long time. 12 February 2007 2:04PM An accurate assessment of the fitful Henry. To many of us he displays classic symptoms of someone who doesn't want to be where he is: denied a move away, locked in by guilt and coercion and lashing out in petty acts of bullying and spitefulness. That's why he'll never be cherished by the British beyond Arsenal fans. 12 February 2007 2:05PM I never understand why people say Henry is a big game bottler...he has scored so many goals against Man Utd, Chelsea, and Liverpool in recent years, and some of those goals have been fantastic. He also scored against Real Madrid and Juventus last season. He also set up the goal in the Champs League final, and although he missed that one on one, the skill to get himself in that position was brilliant. He shouldn't have reacted that way to Kirkland, but it was understandable. Whenever players like Rooney or Terry do anything wrong people say "oh it's just a bit of passion." Henry did go up to Kirkland at the end of the game and it looked like he was apologising. I thought Lehmann was ridiculous but it was very funny, as it was obvious he was also just reacting to Kirkland and taking the mick a little. 12 February 2007 2:05PM Kirkland was asking for it, he was time wasting and he knew he was winding everone up. henry is a passionate guy and it doesnt take much to wind him up. He didnt injure anyone or insult anyone, so whats the problem. Poor article, just another cheap shot at Henry. GU are often very generous in their praise towards arsenal but the constant big-game bottler tag thrown at henry is getting boring. you dont be where he is and win what he has won by bottling it. 12 February 2007 2:06PM Thumbs up Suitone Some people can't handle the truth... 12 February 2007 2:06" Erm Cruyff? Yeah I can actually lol 12 February 2007 2:07PM I would have loved it if Jewell had commented. Perhaps something along the lines of how these "smaller clubs" come to Wigan to defend with 10 men behind the ball? 12 February 2007 2:09PM terrible article not a clue i suppose u read the sun this morning or watched MOTD rather than watch the game and understand why henry was within his rights to do such a thing kirkland was clever but it came back to haunt him arsenal are criticized for playing beautiful football but not winning, then when we want to get ugly and win everyone complains 12 February 2007 2:09PM I'm a Mags fan and I would have Henry on our team, ridiculous antics or not. And by the way mentioning Freddie Flintoff as a great example. They won a group of gamse of cricket against the same team to win the ashes, and have been shit ever since. Cricket is a minority sport in the UK. Witness the lack of support at county games throughout these isles. Frankie Boyle's joke about Scotsmen and tennis comes to mind. 12 February 2007 2:09PM why did you bother writing this article. this has to be the most over the top response to an incident ever.. reprehisible. on par with spitting or going over the top. what's wrong with you. its not good behaviour, yes, and i believe he was booked, which seems appropriate, but get it in perspective, PLEASE! FOR THE LOVE OF GOD. this is a national newspaper. not a crazed we hate thierry henry newsletter. funnily enough, the other 2 offences you list warrant a red card, whilst thierry's warrants a yellow. says it all really. at least half as serious. and yes i'm an arsenal fan, before you ask.. 12 February 2007 2:10PM How is Henry's behaviour yesterday any worse than the sledging in cricket. Last week, this blog saw a piece extolling the non-stop motormouthing of Nixon behind the stumps for England, but when Johnny Foreigner winds up an english man, it suddenly becomes unforgiveable. 12 February 2007 2:10PM "That's why he'll never be cherished by the British beyond Arsenal fans." Tell that to the Portsmouth fans that have chanted his name or the Sunderland fans that gave him a standing ovation. Or the fans that have voted him number one in various "Greatest Ever" polls run by Sky. 12 February 2007 2:10PM brilliant! a blog opportunity to slag off Terry Henry. just a note to the ed for future reference, can you mix it up with vitriol about flat frank, 2nd choice steve and stevie me? makes it much easier. oh and whilst we're on the subject of charmless histrionic egomaniacs, Jens Lehman, is he a **** or what? 12 February 2007 2:11PM Fuss over nothing. Timewasting is part and parcel of the game, but if it blows up in someone's face late in the match, then so much the better. He didn't really need to point it out to Kirkland, but I think there's bigger problems in the Premiership than A Frenchman having an inflated ego. Anyway, my Mum still thinks Henry's 'really nice', although I think she might mean something slightly different. 12 February 2007 2:11PM Shocker - who mentioned winning ugly? You are missing the point a bit. Its about Henry's arrogance and having a bit of respect for the oppostion. Hence the reference to Flintoff. Okay, he may not be on the same par as Tiger Woods or Federer, but he knows how to win and lose graciously. Something Arsenal could try to learn. 12 February 2007 2:11PM "reprehensible in the extreme" Get a grip man! Joey Barton commits ABH on Pedro Mendes over the weekend, and this ridiculously tiny tiff is what you choose to call 'reprehensible in the extreme'? Have you no sense of perspective? 12 February 2007 2:12PM Thank you Rob Smyth, agree with your article but am amazed that he does not receive more negative press attention because of his childish behaviour. I have very much disliked his behaviour since that night at Highbury in 2001. I was at that match (Newcastle fan) and the behaviour of Henry was embarrassing. Sir Bobby Robson's comments regarding Arsenal's 'preceived' injutice hit the nail on the head - "Some people at this football club need to learn how to lose." I believe that Graham Poll didn't referee an Arsenal match for 18 months after that night (but that's another discussion). Henry has a long history of ungracious, spoilt-brat behaviour from goading away fans when he scores to his rediculous ramblings after the Champions League final in which all he achieved was making himself appear so far detached from reality and clouded by his own super ego. I thought his character was prefectly summed up by his behaviour against Spain in the World Cup, only a few weeks after his self-righteous preeching about Barcelona's diving. I've always thought he looks so angry when he scores and often targets the away fans with some aggressive chest beating (especially if Arsenal have come from behinid) as if he his angry that the away fans dared to even consider the possibility of winning the match! Maybe Rob Smyth is right, he is a big game bottler and he knows it. Great players should not need to act like that, he may be a great footballer but i will not remember him as a great sportsman. 12 February 2007 2:13PM As well as being a magnificent footballer and creator of some cool-as-a-cucumber goal celebrations, Henry also has a history of behaving like a petulant dwad. Therefore we aren't surprised when he does any of the above, are we? Meanwhile I'm still trying to work out how on earth the Spanish coach could possibly have won the case about his comments v Thierry. What was his defence? That he keeps a turd in a box to which he directs insults? Presumably when he does score against Spain, Monsieur Henry will merely stand still chilled-as-that-green-vegetable and looking at their pitiful coach. Hopefully he'll feel even that would be beneath him. 12 February 2007 2:13PM "There are some things you just do not do on a football field, things that shatter the sense of fellowship, however slender, that should always permeate a sporting contest..." Bollocks, I'm afraid. Not the sentiment, which is all well and good, but the idea that Henry is the only one doing this. Football has no sacred cows left on, or off the field.

We have implemented a system for virtual private networking, with special attention to the needs of telecommuters. In particular, we used off-the-shelf hardware and open-source software to create a platform to provide IP security and other services for in-home networks. Our experience has taught us a number of things about the scalability of the FreeS/WAN IPsec system, about the widespread mis-handling of path-MTU discovery on the internet, and about the implications of tunnels on the basic architecture of the network. Additional Keywords: VPN, Linux, Residential Gateway, MSS, fragmentation. Suppose we have some customers who are affiliated with a corporation [Note 1] that has a good local-area network, possibly even a wide-area network. Further suppose that there are secondary locations that have not heretofore been served by the corporate network; these could include the customers' homes, or a smallish branch office, or whatever. In many cases, linking the secondary location to the corporate network is highly desirable. The customers may use the secondary location in order to save the time, money, and risk associated with commuting to Over the years, we have used several different methods for connecting the secondary location to the main network. One approach was to use a non-private network. For example, the customers could use a local ISP to establish a link from their PCs to the Internet. From there, they could telnet to some corporate portal. This has several drawbacks. For one thing, this simple configuration exposes their PCs to attack from all the hackers on the Internet. To fend off such attacks, they would need some sort of firewall. Another drawback is that there are multiple points where their data (including sensitive information such as passwords) could be read by eavesdroppers, and even possibly altered in transit. Another approach was to arrange it so that each corporation's data moved over physically separate wires. This is sometimes called a Physically Private Network. We found such systems to have many drawbacks. Either the secondary locations needed to make long-distance calls, or multiple strategically-placed modem banks were required. Each modem bank required an expensive dedicated "backhaul" link to the main location. Furthermore, it is getting harder and harder to physically protect such links against tampering. Nowadays, the best approach in most cases is to transform a non-private network into a virtually private network (VPN) using software. The rest of this paper is devoted to explaining how this is done. A typical telecommuting situation is shown in Figure 1. (Many variations and extensions are possible, some of which will be discussed below.) The networks drawn with double lines constitute the private network. The objective is to give all machines on the private network a reasonable degree of protection against attacks coming from anywhere outside. In typical usage, a packet goes from one of the clients on the in-home network, through the moat, via the internet, through the security portal, to a host on the corporate network. The moat and the security portal are the primary subjects of this paper. In Figure 1, if we dared to connect the client machines directly to the internet (instead of going through the moat), we would be exposed to all sorts of attacks, including the following: There are two ways to look at how our system protects the private networks. We begin by discussing the physical viewpoint, as diagrammed in Figure 1. On the home network, the client machines (the PC, the Mac, etc.) are configured so that the moat is their default router. When an IP packet (which we will call a raw IP packet) from the client machine arrives at the moat, it is encrypted. This encrypted data is then encapsulated ("put into an envelope") and sent via the internet to the security portal at corporate headquarters. The security portal removes the encrypted data from the envelope, decrypts it, and sends the raw IP data on its way via the corporate network. Data flowing in the other direction is treated the same way. Because of this system, a hacker cannot determine the raw contents of the packets flowing between the home LAN and the corporate network. Furthermore, the hacker cannot determine the identities of the client machines or the corporate hosts, or even how many of them there are. The only traffic that flows over the public internet consists of packets from the moat to the security portal and vice versa. All such packets use IP protocol 50 (ESP, i.e., Encapsulated Security Payload) so an attacker cannot even determine the IP protocols that the raw packets are using. A typical machine on the public internet will have no route to the client PC except through the corporate firewall. Even if an attacker guesses that the moat is in a position to forward traffic to the client PC, the moat refuses to forward traffic that doesn't come from the corporate security portal. Another way to look at this is the virtual viewpoint, as diagrammed in Figure 2. It appears to the users that there is a virtually direct, private connection from the moat to the security portal. Indeed, the traceroute command conforms to the virtual view, reporting that there is a single hop between the moat the the security portal, no matter how many physical hops there are in Figure 1. In the setup shown in Figure 2, the only way a client machine can contact a server on the public internet is to go out through the firewall at corporate headquarters. [Note 2] In the other direction, a machine on the public internet cannot initiate a telnet session to any machine on the private network, because that is disallowed by the corporate firewall. This project began as a research project, but quickly scaled up when a group within AT&T needed a large number of VPN systems. They found out three weeks before the deployment deadline that the commercially available hardware and software systems that they had expected to use were unreliable and/or unavailable in sufficient quantity. Our main goals, in approximate order of importance, were: We met all these goals except that the moats in the first batch were not quite as small as we wished. For the first-generation moats, we chose the following configuration: We arranged with the PC manufacturer to have the whole batch built with the desired software (listed below) and our public keys pre-installed. In the second-generation moats, we used an LS-120 superfloppy in place of the hard disk and floppy. Since the disk is used exceedingly rarely (essentially for boot-up only), wearing out the disk is not an issue. Running on the typical moat we have Xntpd is more important than you might think; it allows the logfiles on the moat and the security portal to be compared. The reason why the moat provides DHCP and DNS service on its own, rather than simply forwarding such requests through the IPsec tunnel, is that we want users to be able to use their in-home networks even if the wide-area network is temporarily down. Software for the moat is cross-compiled; that is, the moat does not contain its own development environment. On the machine where we do the compilations, we rely on gcc and the gnu development tools, and cvs. It is also worth noting that the services listed above are the only ones running. In particular the moat provides: A stated goal of the FreeS/WAN project is to encourage very wide adoption of IP security. Similarly, AT&T is committed to providing secure IP service over shared media (e.g., cable modems) on a large scale. To us, if it's not scalable, it's not interesting. Therefore it is not sufficient to have an IPsec implementation that supports just a few tunnels per portal, lovingly configured by an expert. The system must be database driven, so that hundreds or thousands of customers can be transferred from one system to another, without requiring laborious manual re-entry of data. The system must not assume that the configuration is known and unchanging. When you have hundreds or thousands of tunnels per portal, something is always changing. At our behest, the FreeS/WAN team added many "scalability" features to the IPsec system. These include: We have a collection of shell scripts (about 1000 lines total) that extracts the required information from the database and configures the moat. Without these scripts the configuration would be quite laborious and error prone. There are more than a dozen configuration files that are affected. The current versions of the FreeS/WAN IPsec package provide only one way for a moat to identify itself, namely, its wild-side IP address. This is a disaster in cases where the ISP assigns a non-constant address to the moat. To overcome this limitation, we devised a complex procedure: The IPsec RFCs envision other forms of identification, such as using the Fully Qualified Domain Name (FQDN) but they have not yet been implemented in FreeS/WAN. In many homes, there are multiple computers, and having them all connected to the same virtual private network may not be the optimal configuration. Right now the kid-net feature can be implemented as shown in Figure 3, where PC-a is connected directly to the wild internet. The user puts a hub between the moat and the cable modem, and arranges with the cable provider to get N+1 IP addresses (one for the moat, plus one for each of the non-corporate client machines). Typically the cable provider imposes a modest charge for each additional IP address, and some providers impose a limit of three IP addresses per customer, or some other low limit. A lame approximation of this feature can be achieved without paying for a second IP address. You take turns plugging the moat or the kids' computer directly to the cable modem. The cable modem must be reset each time (because it otherwise remembers the Media-Access address of the host to which it is connected, and refuses to talk to any other host). Each reset takes about three minutes. Sigh. A more-elegant solution to the same problem is shown in Figure 4. The wild-side interface of the moat is physically capable of accessing the entire internet. We can put another connector on the moat, implementing another subnet that the kids could use. An advantage of this over the previous solution is that the moat would offer this subnet some minimal firewall service. A similar solution, again employing multiple interfaces on the moat, could provide for multiple VPNs. This is 100% possible in principle. Like many things, doing it badly would be easy, but doing it well is not so easy. With N interfaces on the moat, there are N factorial paths that packets could take, most of which are disallowed. For N>2, a solution that preserves security with high assurance would require more careful work than we have yet been able to give, so this is still in the experimental stage. We now consider the internet connectivity of PC-b as shown in Figure 4. This machine (unlike PC-a) has access to the corporate VPN. Given a sufficiently fast link to the main corporate network, it works just fine for traffic between PC-b and generic hosts on the public internet to go through the corporate firewall. However, it would be more elegant, and in some cases more efficient, if the moat itself could implement corporate firewall policy itself, and route such traffic to/from the internet directly. This is discussed in [3]. It is quite possible for a tunnel that is fully RFC-compliant to be unable to interoperate with a very large percentage of the sites on the internet, because of fragmentation and MTU problems, as we now explain. Keep in mind that the objective is reliable and efficient communication. That's all. As a means to that end, it is better to send a smaller number of large packets, rather than a larger number of small packets. If a packet is fragmented in transit and reassembled before delivery, it magnifies the effect of packet loss in transit. That is because the higher levels of the protocol, which are responsible for retransmission, are forced to retransmit the whole packet, not just the fragment that got lost. Therefore it is sometimes true that the most-efficient packet size is the largest size that can be transmitted without fragmentation, i.e., the path MTU (Maximum Transmission Unit). But this is not always true, as discussed below. As a means to attempt path-MTU discovery, hosts often begin by sending large packets with the DF bit set, and seeing if they get through. But remember this trick is at least two assumptions removed from the actual goal of reliable and efficient communication. See for details. Many TCP clients (notably microsoft) make an optimistic guess and set their initial MSS (Maximum Segment Size) to the largest plausible value. This is perfectly proper, and should typically result in efficiency if other players do their part. This initial guess is necessarily made with no knowledge of the actual path-MTU. The large initial MSS makes it likely that early in the session, packets will be sent that exceed the MTU of some router along the path - especially when there is encapsulation going on at some point, such as an IPsec tunnel. Remember that the MSS concept is applicable at the TCP layer, while the MTU concept is applicable at a much lower layer. The assumption that an MSS of size X will correspond to an MTU of size X+40 is invalidated by the overhead bytes introduced by the encapsulation. Suppose an oversized packet (with the DF bit set) arrives at a router. The RFC says "In this case the gateway must discard the datagram and may return a destination unreachable message." Specifically this message is ICMP type 3 code 4 and it explains that fragmentation is needed and suggests a new packet size. See for details. Note that the frag-needed messages are optional according to the RFC. We note that path-MTU discovery without them is at best rather inefficient. But in real life, the situation is much worse than that. We observe that the vast majority of the world's web servers improperly assume that the routers must return a frag-needed message. The microsoft web site is one of the few that is both efficient and robust... efficient in that it starts out by sending large packets, and robust that it will (even in the absence of frag-needed messages) reduce its MSS if large packets don't get through. See observations section below. There are some firewalls (the Firewall-One brand in particular, and quite likely others) that in their usual configuration do not pass the ICMP frag-needed datagrams. We consider this a weakness in the firewalls. This is a pain in the neck to fix, but overcomes the naughty behavior of about half the world's web sites; see details below. What's much much worse is that the persons administering typical IPsec tunnels cannot in general fix the frag-needed problem by fixing their own firewalls. Consider the situation shown in Figure 5, where there is a tunnel between West and East. Suppose you control FW2 and everything to the right thereof, whereas FW1 and everything to the left thereof belong to somebody else like aol.com. It appears that something like 15% of the server-sites in the world assume that there will be "no interior minima" in the MTUs along a path. They create their own black hole, and then improperly fail to perform black-hole detection. Your clients will hang when trying to contact such servers, and there 's almost nothing you can do about it. Similarly it appears that more than half of the world's sites improperly require the frag-needed messages when there are interior minima. Note that a verrrry large fraction of the world's clients blissfully (and properly!) negotiate for the biggest MSS they can get. Finally note that we want the tunnel to interoperate with the world as it actually exists. This is a stricter requirement than merely complying with the RFCs. Therefore our policy is to have the tunnel implement a virtually-large MTU. This will in some cases require that packets (with DF set) that arrive at one portal (West) be encapsulated in multiple envelopes. When these envelopes arrive at the other portal (East) they will be re-assembled so that an unfragmented packet can be sent on its way toward the final destination (sink). This policy comes as a shock to some people, because it eliminates any possibility of the source/sink pair being able to discover the effective MTU of the path inside the tunnel. However this is the way it has to be. Suppose for instance that the path inside the tunnel had (at the real-IP level) an MTU equal to the smallest permissible internet packet. If we tried to force the incoming raw packet to be sent in a single envelope, there would be no room for the encapsulation header overhead, and therefore no connectivity at all. An extreme way to make the same point is this: suppose we are sending IP over ATM, which uses 48-byte packets. Setting the DF bit cannot possibly prevent fragmentation of the IP packet into multiple ATM cells. The basic, essential function of the DF bit is to ensure that packets that leave the source with the DF bit arrive at the destination in one piece. This is important, because not all hosts are capable of reassembling fragments. Note that any packets that are fragmented on entrance to the tunnel are reassembled upon exit, thereby upholding this essential meaning of the DF bit. Note that this virtually-large MTU is consistent with the fact that (at the abstract level) there is only one hop between the two ends of the tunnel (as reported by, e.g., traceroute) no matter how many hops there are (at the real-IP level) inside the tunnel. This inability of the endpoints to discover the MTU of the tunnel will in some cases lead to reduced efficiency. In our application (and we believe in most applications) this inefficiency is vastly preferable to the alternative, which is complete inability to reach incorrigible sites such as aol.com and intel.com. Terminology: "naughty" means the server site (meaning the source/FW1 combination) does not recover properly when we start out with an MSS that cannot be supported by the actual path-MTU, unless an ICMP frag-needed message is emitted by FW2. Similarly "incorrigible" means that it does not recover even if the frag-needed messages are being generated and passed by FW2; presumably they are being blocked by FW1 or some such. Table 1 gives a partial list of servers we've checked. The main points of this section are: Before explaining these points, we must distinguish a couple of concepts: The kernel (Linux in this case) implements a "kernel routing table". This allows packets within a given host to be routed to the correct interface (eth0, eth1, et cetera). Given a properly set up routing table, the host can function as a gateway, so packets that come in on one interface can be forwarded to another. We will call this level of functionality a micro router. A fully-featured internet router requires other functions. It needs to run a program such as routed(8). That is, it needs to send and receive routing messages, so that it and its peers can keep their routing tables up to date in the face of ever-changing network connectivity. A host with this level of functionality we will call a macro router. Next, we must distinguish three or four levels of routing that must occur: First, there is routing that occurs well below the IPsec layer. Consider the routers shown in Figure 1. They must maintain their routing tables to reflect the routes that connect them. This occurs at the raw-IP layer, and the portals at the ends of the IPsec tunnels generally do not and cannot know anything about this. Next, there is routing that should occur below the IPsec layer but which is actually done at the IPsec level. The current FreeS/WAN implementation does not trust the kernel routing tables to send the IPsec traffic over the right route. Therefore, as part of the IPsec configuration, FreeS/WAN must be told about the "next-hop" router. That is, in Figure 1, the moat must be told the IP address of the "west" router, and the corporate security portal must be told the IP address of the "east" router. Next, there is routing that must occur at the IPsec layer. The linux 2.0xx kernel routing mechanism can only route traffic based on the destination IP address. However, the IPsec specifications require that decisions about how to encrypt, and how to route traffic, must be made on an assortment of "selectors" including destination address, source address, protocol type, et cetera. The current version of FreeS/WAN only implements the source and destination selectors. Another type of routing occurs at or above the IPsec layer. This occurs when a given host has more than one tunnel that serves the same subnet. In Figure 1, imagine that there were redundant security portals on the corporate wide-area network, located at a number of different sites. The IPsec implementation on the moat would need to choose which of these tunnels to use. This decision would be based on information from lower protocol layers, i.e., how efficiently each tunnel can carry traffic, whether it is up at the moment, et cetera. Finally, there is routing that must occur above the IPsec layer. A portal creates a route to the machines on the far end of the tunnel. In general, the portal should act like a macro-router; i.e., it should advertise this route. For instance, in the case of multiple portals just described, hosts and routers on the corporate network would have a choice of which portal to use when sending traffic to the moat. This would depend not only on the efficiency of the tunnel (once the traffic reached the portal) but on how efficiently a given host could reach a given portal. The current version of FreeS/WAN cannot handle redundant tunnels. It does not perform high-level macro-routing (i.e., advertising its routes). It does not gracefully handle low-level macro-routing (e.g., changes in the address of the "west" router). These are hard problems, and are very high on our wish-list. Consider the following chain of implications: The existing procedures for macro-routing do not appear to scale very well. There are too many routes, and too many updates to the routing tables. The deployment of large numbers of tunnels could greatly increase the number of routes. This can be expected to put additional stress on the routers. Furthermore, we must examine the notion that the tunnel is layered on top of the raw-IP link. Link failures break this notion, cutting across the layer boundaries. If (in Figure 1) the route from "west" to "east" changes, that's no big deal, but if "west" totally loses its connection to "east", then the moats (possibly a very great number of moats) must be notified. The technique of sending routine enquiries ("keep-alive" messages) to check on the health of a path scales exceedingly poorly. If every endpoint of every conversation tried to do this, very soon the entire bandwidth of the net would be used for keep-alive messages. A better strategy is for each node to keep track of the health of its immediate neighbors. Then, if there is an outage, it can send appropriate notifications using higher-level protocols. The present situation has at some interesting upsides. For example, the IPsec header contains a sequence number. If packets arrive out of sequence, it is a sensitive indicator of loss - more sensitive than the sequencers built into the higher-level protocols. Having a good loss indicator is very important, since loss is practically the only usable indicator of congestion. It may be possible to exploit this and other properties of the IPsec protocol to solve some problems. Since the IPsec protocol is not 100% set in stone at this point, we have what may be a once-in-lifetime opportunity to design in additional features to solve important problems that heretofore seemed only tangentially (or less) related to the basic objectives of IPsec. The round-trip "ping" time between a typical client machine and a typical host on the corporate network is routinely less than 25 milliseconds for short packets and less than 85 milliseconds for 1400 byte packets. Almost all of this time is attributable to the link between the moat and the security portal at the real-IP level; the encryption and encapsulation takes at most 1 ms for the short packets and at most 15 ms for the long packets. On a laboratory link with negligible delay at the real-IP level, the system is observed to sustain a throughput of 6.9 megabits per second. This is at or near the limit imposed by the CPU cycles required to perform the triple-DES encryption of the data stream. Hardware reliability has been good. During roughly 2000 moat-weeks of operation, we have not had any failures in the field except for one case where it appears the cable modem and moat were destroyed by a lightning strike, one hard-disk crash, and one transient outage attributed to overheating in an un-airconditioned location in midsummer. Software reliability has been good. We discovered one race condition that would cause a tunnel to fail with a probability of about 0.1% per day per moat. The FreeS/WAN authors quickly fixed this. The only large-scale outage resulted from a failure of syslogd of all things, due in turn to the Linux kernel's highly suboptimal implementation of fsync(). It uses an algorithm, which cannot keep up when the log file gets too big. Far and away the biggest performance problems are at the raw-IP layer. Remember, IPsec is layered on top of raw IP. If the lower layer is broken, there's not much the higher layers can do about it. We have learned that it is important to give the users (and support staff) enough access to the various layers that, when there is a problem, they can tell whether it is the raw-IP layer or the IPsec layer that needs attention. We are profoundly grateful to the authors of FreeS/WAN and the software mentioned in the "Software" subsection. Other folks who have made important contributions to the moat project include Norm Schryer, Sharon Gray, Sam Alexander, and Steven Gao.

2010 still poised to be hottest year on record despite cool start in parts of Northern Hemisphere Note: … data from NASA that indicates that 2009 was the hottest year on record south of the Equator. The find adds to multiple lines of evidence showing that the 2000s were the warmest decade in the modern instrumental record.Southern Hemisphere temperatures can serve as a trailing indicator of global warming, says NASA mathematician Reto Ruedy of the Goddard Institute for Space Studies in New York City,. year of medium strength, which Ruedy says might mean that the warmer temperatures also show global, long-term warming as well as the regional trend.″: And these records are including data lost by the Met Office? Why should we trust this report? [JR: 1) This is NASA data, if you actually read the post before commenting on it. 2) The Met Office hasn't "lost" data. Seriously. Read and think for yourself.] spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=30000 NASA Caught in Climate Data Manipulation Tom Deltin resorts to innuendo… “NASA Caught in Climate Data Manipulation”. Caught implies hiding something. Please tell us what manipulation that NASA does which is not public on their web site. Second, manipulation is not the same thing as fabrication. Averaging two numbers is a manipulation. My bet is Tom has NO IDEA, and is only repeating something from a disinformation site. Tom Deltin is referring to tonight’s airing of John Coleman’s KUSI-TV Climate Special where the journalist Mr. Coleman will continue trying to convince people that the world is in the grip of a giant conspiracy of evil scientists who are planning to get rich by selling carbon credits and they should all be sued and brought to trial where at last the real truth will come out because once the experts get done testifying nobody will believe the scientists anymore. Nest, Tom will expose the massive NASA conspiracy in which thousands of Inuit, armed with heat lamps, have been deployed across the Arctic ice cap, manipulating that climate data by artificially melting ice. Gullible – cf. Tom Deltin From the astute Tom Deltin’s link: .” This means that 2009 is after all the warmest year on record! Thanks for clearing that up, Tom! Calling Mr. Cavuto…….Calling Mr. Cavuto…….. Commenter Tom Deltin is the perfect example of an individual who gullibly, slavishly, obediently, unhesitatingly believes every bit of inane drivel that the so-called “right wing” media spoon-feeds him … and calls himself a “skeptic”. “The United States may be experiencing one of the coldest winters in decades, but things continue to heat up in the Southern Hemisphere. ” It’s actually been quite warm in the northern hemisphere as well, just not on average in the 1.5% of the Earth that the continental U.S. makes up, or in Europe. Ocean surface temperatures I believe are at or beyond record levels. The HADSST2 anomaly for December, 2009 was the highest on record for December. HadCrut3 looks like it will be 5th, or perhaps statistically tied for 3rd. For the gamblers, Intrade has a contract for 2010 being the warmest on record, using GISS data. I believe it’s currently trading at 25%, indicating a 3 to 1 payout if you bet on 2010 being the warmest. Perhaps the recent eastern U.S. cold weather and “mini ice age” garbage is fooling some traders. Sounds like a good bet. I guess global warming denial propaganda can serve a useful purpose! I look forward to reading John Coleman’s amusing claims in an academic journal (snicker). Looks like a bit of damage control. And here we have the denier game plan, played out in living color. Joe posts a story about big climate news, and the discussion instantly gets sidetracked by a member of the flying hordes of deniers that swarm from site to site. Here’s a siggestion, albeit hardly an original one: DON’T FEED THE FREAKIN’ TROLLS!!! More bad news for climate from the Guardian: leaking of the strong greenhouse gas methane from the warming Arctic permafrost grew by 31% in 5 years! Although the time series is short, this sure looks like a ‘positive’ (strengthening) feedback from the temperature increase in the Arctic region: I looked at Intrade – interesting! They also have a line on if 2010 will be warmer than 2009 that is trading at the same level. I will take that bet. Here in northern Minnesota we have had a fairly mild winter, particularly compared to the last two. Thank you El Nino. Temperatures on the denialist dataset of choice, the UAH satellite measurements (channel 05), have also been surpassing all other years, including the 20 year record temperatures, for the past few days: Today it was exactly 1.00 degree F warmer than this day in 2009, meaning Global Cooling has been reversed. WUWT? Where’s Michael Asher from DailyTech telling us that a “twelve-month long droprise in world temperatures wipes out a centuryyear of warmingcooling”. Michael Asher, where are you? What are you writing about? “2009 had warmest temperature on record.” So what? Does anyone think that global temperatures remain constant throughout history? [JR: No. The best science says that global temperatures primarily change it when they are forced to change. Those forcings have, historically, been natural -- but now human emissions have overwhelmed the natural forcings and are now driving the climate. So "what" is going to happen if we keep listening to the anti-science crowd, as you seem to, is that global temperatures will continue to rise at a faster and faster rate this century, until we ultimately destroy a livable climate.] Per #15, M. McMack: “Doc, I’ve got this huge, tumorous growth on my neck!” “So what? Does anyone think that the human body remains constant throughout its lifespan?” (Deniers always share such cogent analyses.) Mike, I really do not understand your point. You seem to be saying that, since temperature varies, having the highest temperature on record is not significant in the context of the global warming issue. Which raises the question of what would be significant. You seem to rule out any temperature increase as being relevant. Wow! Hard to get my mind around that one. Joe, Way to be on the story. Tom Deltin is referring to tonight’s airing of John Coleman’s KUSI-TV Climate Special where the journalist Mr. Coleman will continue trying to convince people that the world is in the grip of a giant conspiracy Regarding Coleman’s “special”…. One of the perks of living in San Diego is being able to watch KUSI (not!). I’ll be recording Coleman’s program tonight so you guys don’t have to. (No need to thank me for “taking one for the team”). Local wingnut talk-radio host Rick Roberts (KFMB San Diego) has been flogging Coleman’s special all week. Roberts will be taking calls from his fans to discuss Coleman and the global-warming “fraud” tomorrow during his time slot (5-9AM PST). If you wish, you can listen to him at 760kfmb.com via streaming audio. (But then again, maybe you’d rather not). Roberts, BTW, is San Diego’s #1 talk-radio host; he has a very large following here. Roberts did an interview with Coleman a couple of days ago. The interview is available as a podcast at media.worldnow.com/kfmbam/podcast/rick_roberts_1095.mp3. Roberts and Coleman were in full tinfoil-hat mode during the interview — just warning ya. What I find especially disturbing about all this is even though San Diego is home to one of the world’s leading climate-research facilities (the Scripps Institution of Oceanography), San Diego county residents hear a lot more about global-warming from kooks like Roberts and Coleman (who are leading media personalities here) than they do from Scripps. So to anyone here who might know any folks at Scripps, please give them a heads up about what Coleman and Roberts are up to. It’s past time for Scripps to lay the smackdown on our local global-warming misinformers.. On the local radio/tv stations here, we hear a lot more from the loony wingnuts than we do from the world-class climate-researchers who live right in here in our own town! That’s an absolute travesty. The world is getting hotter but it’s not so much where it’s hot and where it’s not(even though it look’s like little to no snow for the Winter Olympics) it’s the whip-saw affect. From cold and snow to melt and heavy rain and back again. Crop losses in the near future from weather gone wild and off seasonal norms, will be the big tell in how global climate change is going to affect everyone. History tells it pretty clearly, as our planet warms, extremes will cause the big impacts, unpredictability is the one thing that our modern civilization doesn’t cope well with. The constant disasters will severely strain our ability to adapt. What K. Nockels wrote in comment #20. [Third attempt to post this comment.] Mr. Nockels (#20), I do believe you’ve nailed the crux of the matter most succinctly! Good on ya’ as crop and agriculture reports from across the globe are less and less “optimistic” year after year. However, the real “egg” in the nest is what will populations and nations do when a “large enough” percentage of the citizenry, everywhere, are going hungry and thirsty? Of course, the majority here in the USA (and elsewhere?) _believe_ “it can’t happen here!” Isn’t “belief” a remarkable construct?! K. Nockels, #20: I fully agree. Our eyes have been focused on the hardest portion of the equation to visualize when we look at “warming,” as in global warming. (Average 0.5C world over. Kind of hard to tell the difference in Minnesota from -20F to -19F in the winter.) The oceans, being a huge “heat sink,” assures that effects of heat will lag the effects of “energy.” When more energy is in the system however, oscillations, jet streams, storms, floods etc. all become noticeably vigorous. The oceans have absorbed the majority of the energy, like the big efficient battery it is. Look at the noticeable effects an El Nino, with changes of only a degree or two, can have on weather systems. Now visualize the whole worlds oceans a degree warmer. And added humidity from increased evaporation to fall as rain or snow in the winter. If I were a prudent sailer I would be battening down the hatches about now. As my ancestors would say- “Never go to sea in a boat you would not be proud to have as your coffin.” Leif (#23), great follow-up… and a fine segue for this _important_ article I had not seen before today. I think it “should be” required reading far and wide! It contains some highly relevant information directly related to your comment and neck of the woods. The Source of Europe’s Mild Climate The notion that the Gulf Stream is responsible for keeping Europe anomalously warm turns out to be a myth K. Nockels @ 20 – Exactly! And I really like the term Whipsaw Effect – I think it could be catchy. This article is remarkable in its denial of reality. This may explain why few people trust NASA/GISS data sets any more. gallopingcamel says: January 15, 2010 at 2:04 am Sounds like you caught the “weather report” on KUSI? Here’s a suggestion. Over the next few days, buttonhole 100 strangers, ask them “Do you trust the NASA/GISS data sets?” If you’re not arrested for acting bizarrely, report back. #26: Interesting. So which data sets would you trust? HADCRUT is out, as we aaaaall know from the “exposed Climategate FRAUD/HOAX ™”. NASA/GISS is out too now, apparently. Getting a bit thin here. I hear Anthony Watts has a bit of a business going selling weather measuring instruments – maybe we should set up a global network exclusively with his gear? T Tell me gallopingcamel, which ones would YOU trust? A temperature anomaly of 0.49°C for an entire hemisphere would seem to me to be quite extreme. I’m getting very concerned that even the best supporters of doing something about AGW ignore that outstanding datapoint and spend their time answering nonsense posts by deniers. Get this through your heads people! You will not convince the deniers! Stop wasting your time. Stop being distracted away from what needs to be done! You can give them facts, more facts, and even more facts, and they will not care in the slightest bit! For those interested in big weather events, you might want to keep an eye out on the NW coast. It is too early for predictions but to my eye the current patterns have an ominous look to them. I am battening down my hatches. Good practice if nothing else. Get this through your heads people! You will not convince the deniers! Stop wasting your time. Stop being distracted away from what needs to be done! You can give them facts, more facts, and even more facts, and they will not care in the slightest bit! Aaaaaa-men, bruddah. Ignore the willing ignorami. They are wasting your time on purpose, which is morally bankrupt. They will face reprisal and their fate one way or another. Fuggem. Best, D It is too early for predictions but to my eye the current patterns have an ominous look to them. Yes, that is not a January pattern. The water managers are watching their reservoirs very closely right now, guaranteed. Best, D NOAA 2009 and decadal climate summary: From the Pacific NW: News BEFORE it news! Notice the “Atmospheric River” we are at the mouth of. Look at the relative location of Hawaii. We are talking a moist flow with a lot of warm water to cover yet. Almost from the equator! A very “defined weather system with lots of potential. On the other hand. Looks like a bug fluffy kitty cat walking off the picture. Your picture may very as the current form is time sensitive. 4 or 5 days to play out though. Where is the NASA announcement that is supposed to happen today, as referenced in Joe’s original post? I’d like to have it before passing on the news to others. Thanks. Mark B, #33, I’m noticing the NOAA link you provided states that 2009 was the fifth warmest year of the thermometer record. Is the NASA claim of “second warmest” because of different techniques in measuring? Which should I use when speaking with friends and family about the issue? Chris (#36), “Top 5″ is fine. So is “between 2nd and 5th”. The difference between the 2 data products is very slight, and results from slightly different processing techniques. The 2nd through 5th positions are all within a few hundredths of each other. Both data products have 2005 as the warmest. 2010 will be the one to watch. Records are usually broken during the year after an el Nino starts. More meaningful than individual years, the NOAA report also indicates that the last decade (2000-2009) was by far the warmest decade on record, 0.18 C above the 1990′s. Spread the word. And if someone wants to verify the raw and processed data, code, and methods themselves, this is a good page: NOAA/NCDC data is out today: December 2009 Global Temperature 8th Warmest on Record; Global Ocean and Southern Hemisphere 2nd Warmest Leif, the flow is starting to wave. No Pineapple Express yet. But not a good pattern for this time of year, surely. They tend to reinforce themselves and we should plan for one in March if this is any indication. Best, D Dano: Like I said , we have 4 or 5 days for this to play out. Sunny and beautiful at the moment. But I live in a Rain Shadow. Surrounding very wet. Mark B, (#37), thanks. Thanks for explaining that to me. I just couldn’t figure out why Joe’s interview above, Grist, and Lester Brown are all posting the word “Second” today when the only published news release I see (from NOAA) says “fifth”, no matter how close they are. Id hate to give fodder to the anti-science crowd. I want to see policy passed and I dont want to see it get tripped up by the other side berating this later. carebonnog, #19 .” Can’t the public DEMAND that announcers by forced to take a class in “understanding first principals” as a prerequisite for a license to be “on the air.” It is obvious that it is not in the public interest disseminate obvious lies over and over simply because you have control over a broadcast studio. The anti-Science crowd are salivating over that one, but I’m just fishing here. Dano: Like I said , we have 4 or 5 days for this to play out. Sunny and beautiful at the moment. But I live in a Rain Shadow. Surrounding very wet. This old weatherman doesn’t see it. I don’t believe the model solutions. 500 mb pattern doesn’t look stable attm. Surely there will be disturbances coming thru but this is no Pineapple Express nor does it have a subtropical tap. I guess we’ll see, eh? Best, D Dano: Went to Cliff Mass Weather Blog. He has interesting things to say especially if you live in the NW. Two last posts about very same event. The table shows an annual anomaly of 0.57 – tied for second. [JR: As reported!] Dano: The first “wind event,” (That is ~hurricane winds for you folks on the East Coast), is expected to hit southern Oregon coast Sunday late afternoon and evening. Lots more ‘weather” out in the North Pacific yet. My lady an I are planing three nights at Kalaloch come Tuesday. We are taking siege food. Weather window looks promising for going out. Return more problematical. Yup, Cliff sez lots of energy but not indicating Pineapple Express. We’ll see if the model runs verify, but certainly lots of energy. I told friends in Wenatchee to forget Mission Ridge for some time. And I do like the denialists complaining how cooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooold!!!!!!!!!!!!!! it is, when the world will be watching the Olympics in Cascadia during an El Niño year. Can you imagine how the willing ignorami, PR firms and misinformers are going to be tap-dancing around that?! Heh. Best, D Why hasn’t Nasa Giss posted the official numbers on Friday ? (It is Saturday today). Why does it take two weeks for a computer to calculate an average if the heuristics are set before the 31st of December ? [JR: The official numbers have been posted, as I wrote yesterday.] JR & Ansgar The table may have been published, but we need an announcement written, and a colorful graph displayed, so that we can post on our own Facebook pages and personal blogs or whatever. Something should be written here: I can re-post JR’s article here, but its even better when it comes from the horse’s mouth. [JR: Like I said, it looks like NASA wants to make a broader comment on weather vs. climate rather than just reporting the annual data.] Dano, #47: Canada has closed some of the mountain already to preserve what snow they have. I believe the “base” went from mid 40″s to mid 20″s in the last few weeks. (Known as “Cascade Cement.”) There will be extensive snow making at this rate for the Olympics. Well North of the northern tip of Maine and 7,000′+ elevation. Ansgar (#48) it looks like this was a little unclear for both of us. The solution is to look at the more recent JR blog entry above. The typed words we are looking for are in the first paragraph of the PDF mentioned there. Additionally Hansen states, “We will prepare a write-up on 2009 temperatures for the GISS web site next week.” So for now, for lay people to use a pull-quote, it looks like the PDF is the answer. Serious Question: Is this a forecast or a climate prediction? The implication being that a forecast is a short term phenomena which says nothing about long term climate change. Baring events like a major volcano, meteor strike that would throw up lots of dust into the atmosphere will Climate Progress make a big issue if 2010 turns out not to be the warmest year since the 1800s? So far January seems to be incredibly warm. In Vancouver one of the two mountains that will be used for Olympic events has closed for sports (in the areas to be used) in an effort to preserve what little snow they have. Lief (50): When I lived there near Crystal we’d call it ‘Cascade Concrete’, in CA we called it ‘Sierra Cement’, the alliteration matching better to the location. Nonetheless, our snow here isn’t the greatest either and we haven’t yet done a snowshoe weekend due to conditions. Best, D Science is under attack by oil producing manipulators, and non-thinking individuals ready to attack real data on temperatures rising in accordance to the last hundred years of unprecedented carbon air pollution and deforestation. Note this article: “One man’s look at the global warming horizon – How oil remains the culprit behind 9/11 and global warming, the latter being a reality not an elitist scam.” By Jerry Maxxa, posted at more resources at my site, FlybyNews.com Mounting Evidence of Extreme Global Warming

- Moments of doubts 3 Fat Chicks on a Diet Weight Loss Community > Support Forum > Weight Loss Support > Moments of doubts PDA View Full Version : Moments of doubts yellsa 10-17-2010, 09:09 AMhahmd 10-17-2010, 09:30 AM Seems like I have those at the beginning of almost every month. Maybe I didn't exercise as hard as I could have and I just try to lie to myself, and wonder why oh why the scale hasn't budged. But then I remember that I have in fact lost SOME weight, which is better than none, and that it IS possible. I don't know- I can see physical changes with my body, even if they aren't SUPER noticable yet, and it makes me feel good. Everybody's body is capable of changing... it just takes time. I know I can lose weight, but I have this funny feeling it's going to take years to look how I want. Everyone is different. You have to find what works for you. For the most part, calorie counting is the best thing I've ever gotten into, with the exceptions of a few minor tweaks here and there. It helps me feel like I still have some control, even when I'm not exercising. I look at it this way: I spent 21 years fat, technically obese. I wasted my teen years on food. I don't want to do that anymore, and ANY progress I make now is better than what I was when I was a teenager. But there's a limit of how much "feel good because you're doing good for yourself, but sort of slack off and lie to yourself" you can dish out to yourself, at least IMO. (Hope that doesn't sound rude! It's mostly aimed at me, because I do it a LOT, but maybe you do too, idk) If you want to see progress, you have to actually work for it. Just try not to be so hard on yourself, we all have off days, and some of us even have super-off-binge-days. I love Jillian Michaels view on things, "every day is a clean slate, a new day to start over." (I'm not good with words, so sorry if I offended anyone! And if you can see what I was TRYING to say, please quote me and try :D I'm so bad with words.) spixiet 10-17-2010, 10:03 AM All I can say is, "Amen, yhahmd!" :D I most definitely have occasional doubts since I've been obese for significantly more of my life than I've been thin. Part of me has no real concept of what it would be to be thin and has no real belief that I can actually ever get there - However, I consider that to be the same part of me that thinks it's a really good idea to eat an entire bag of Flaming Hot Cheetos in one sitting :o I'm doing a pretty good job of shutting up that part of me with regards to food, so I'm basically doing the same thing whenever the doubts rear up~ Pudgebrownie 10-17-2010, 10:13 AM For me it's not so much being unable to envision myself "thin" but rather I hate the long *** journey it takes to get there. I know it'll happen, I'm just super impatient, as most of us are. I mean, wouldn't it be great to wake up in the morning, lose another 5lbs and slim before your eyes? You just have to tell yourself that you WILL get there. That's what I do every single day, and I will. Just be diligent in your weight loss regimen. If you're good to your body, it'll come around and be good to you. This is something I'm still learning. But the great thing about your body is that it adjusts so well. You can really mold yourself into whatever you want, given you're dedicated and stick to plan. Best of luck! Wild Vulpix 10-17-2010, 10:45 AM Oh my gosh, I'm also in that boat. It seems every other day I'd start to doubt that my body could possibly change. It is though... I have pictures to prove it. My back isn't being pinched by fat anymore, and my stomach has receded a lot. My calves, which grossed me out for a very long time, no longer feel like (as I referred them as) "built in bell bottoms". I went from not fitting into a large belt (needing an XL) to currently being halfway through an M belt. I recommend taking pictures! Number8 10-17-2010, 01:04 PM My biggest discouragement has been clothes. My main goal was to go down to a size 12 or smaller so I could shop at the regular stores here (toronto never seems to carry above a 12!!! >.<) at 195 I was a size 16. Now at 167 I am a size 16..... awesome. I have noticed differences in my arms and face- but I don't wear pants on my face!!!!! My motivation to keep going comes from all kinds of different places. The other day on the subway I felt like it had gotten bigger. It was easier to weave around people and duck into a space. I don't know if it's my added athleticism from the exercize or if it's the weight loss but that's definitely a plus! Also I was on a plane recently and got put in the emergency exit seat. The man next to me was like " I always get put here" and I replied, "me too I get put here at least 3/5 flights and I fly a lot! "It must be because we're small- they think we're agile." ...... hahahaha your my new best friend! I was known as the fat girl sense I moved here because everyone is like 96 Lbs here and then some stranger tells me I look 'small and agile' Loves it! The best thing to do is try to make the good things bigger and the bad things smaller. If someone complements you, or you reach a NSV Give yourself a sticker! My calendar looks like it came out of a kindergarten classroom because I get stickers for working out and reaching goals. At the end of the month you have a glittery cute reminder that your doing something good for yourself - even if the pants or scale don't show it. niafabo 10-17-2010, 05:48 PM I lose my motivation sometimes. So far I have lost nearly 30 pounds and I have yet to drop a pants size. I often feel as though I looked better before I started losing weight but then I look at an old picture and I know it's not true. I don't look much different but oh well. No matter what I just try to stick to game plan. I figure even if it takes forever eating right and regularly exercising can't hurt anything. I don't have anything that will benefit me more to do, I feel healthier when I do it, and it helps with stress. Might as well just stick with it. XD AZ Sunrises 10-17-2010, 06:16 PMup. Every single solitary day, I think it doesn't matter and that nothing's changing. I said that at 334. I'm saying that at 269. :) My scale isn't lying. The pants sizes aren't lying (damn those vanity sizes though). I can't see the difference in the mirror *that* much, but a funny thing happens when I look at pics of myself at my heaviest. I see how much I've changed. I'm feeling phantom fat. I'll go touch my tummy or backside to confirm that I'm still shamu the super-whale...and it's not quite where it used to be. I'll reach to scratch my tummy and miss. I'll sit in the car and notice that the steering wheel lacks 4-5 inches of rubbing--my gut used to be a fraction of an inch from it. It changes despite your perception. :) It changes in ways without your permission. It changes without you even noticing. Hang in there and give it time. angelskeep 10-17-2010, 07:00 PM I doubt it every day. Even after losing 45 lbs, I don't feel any thinner. I can move about a whole lot better, and surprisingly, when I had some general health care bloodwoork done "just because", my dr. said my results were "pristine". I still feel short and fat most days. I think I still AM short and fat most days ;-) I sure hope it gets better eventually. Like, am I EVER gonna get taller. I think everyone has moments of doubt, but as long as we keep pushing forward, maybe it gets a little better over time? And I hope it helps to know we are all in the same boat and paddling as best we can. Barb angelskeep 10-17-2010, 07:04 PM I lose my motivation sometimes. So far I have lost nearly 30 pounds and I have yet to drop a pants size. I didn't lose a size until I lost over 40 lbs and then all of a suddent it was 3 sizes at once, so don't you give up! Barb luckymommy 10-17-2010, 07:05 PM I have frequent feelings of frustration but I also have frequent feelings of excitement and anticipation. I know that the only thing that will stop me from getting to my goal is me.. I try to look at the big picture (no pun intended) and see the overall downward trend. If I don't reach my goal for the month, I don't get that upset at all because usually, by then, I'm still at a lower weight than I started that month so I try to pat myself on the back. It took time to put it on so it will take time to take it off. I try to change my mental self talk to be more positive, but it's not always easy. Sunshine73 10-17-2010, 07:53 PM I do have that feeling. A Lot. Like almost everyday a lot. When I get that feeling I try to remind myself that the number on the scales and what I see in the mirror does not always define my success. It's a handy tool to measure how far I've come but I know that, regardless of what the scales says, when I'm exercising and eating healthier I *am* healthier. I also know that my body is, like everyone else's, capable of changing - it's my mind that clings the most stubbornly to the long ingrained behaviors. :hug: Keep going, you'll get there! LiannaKole 10-17-2010, 11:12 PM. This is me exactly. And recently my weight loss style has made it worse - it goes slooow loss or stall, and then small whoosh. I'm always afraid that the most recent stall is where my weight loss will stop forever (or where I'll start mysteriously gaining), or that the loss will just trickle away to nothing. It scares the crap out of me. I am trying hard to remind myself that I will keep losing weight if I keep eating and exercising right. The only thing that can stop it is me making the decision to stop it. I'm hoping that after I get used to my body's new way of shedding fat that I'll be more at ease. Sometimes I get really frustrated and contemplate just giving up, but I never seriously consider it. And I have to realize that perpetually stalled weight loss won't happen - but I can't quit just because it's not happening at the lightning speed I want. Slow and steady wins the race, right? Just hang in there, OP. Do what you know works and it'll happen over time. Your body will change - mine changes very slowly - 43 lbs down and I'm barely in a size 12 from a 16. It'll happen. kaplods 10-17-2010, 11:52 PM I've been on the weight loss/gain rollercoaster since I was put on my first diet in kindergarten. Until "this time" I had never lost more than 70 lbs (and that was with prescription amphetemines starting in 8th grade), and I had never reached "goal weight." I also had never kept up a weight loss attempt for more than three years. This time has been different, but not because I have fewer moments of doubt. I have more doubts than ever before. In many ways, I've drug myself along for this ride, kicking and screaming. I've succeeded despite a bad attitude (in that I'm a lot less willing to sacrifice for weight loss than I ever have - enjoying and living my life takes first priority. Weight loss, diet and exercise are ways to take care of myself, not things I have to suffer in order to reach a goal weight). I can't envision myself at my goal weight, and I don't know how much more progress I can make - but that doesn't matter to me anymore. No matter how much I doubt my ability, the effort is still as much (probably more) the goal as the end result is. The main point isn't the goal weight anymore, so I don't have to worry about "what if I can't lose more." If I can't lose more, then my goal will continue to be what it is now - to maintain the loss I've acheived so far, and to lose one more pound. This time, the whole goal from the start has been "just one more pound." There's never a reason to give up when that is the goal. "What's the use," thinking assumes that only the targeted end result is worthwhile. There are no prizes for second place, but that's not how weight works. My ultimate goal is also 150 lbs, but we aren't going to be healthy and beautiful at 150 lbs and obese and hideous at 151. Every pound is an achievement of it's own, and every pound gone has advantages tied to it, so maintenance of what I've already lost is always my first priority. It really took me a long time to realizise that every pound counts (almost 35 years). I always looked at weight loss as an all-or-nothing endeavor. If I couldn't get to my goal weight, then I "might as well" eat everything in sight and accept being fat forever. Idiotic, but it's how we're "taught" to do weight loss in our culture. We're taught "what's the use," thinking, and it makes no sense, because even if you weigh 900 lbs, every pound lost counts. Every pound lost takes four pounds of pressure off your knees when you walk (even more if you run). At nearly 400 lbs, it didn't seem that every pound counted. It seemed to me that if I couldn't lose a tremendous amount of weight that "I might as well not worry about weight loss at all." If I lost 100 lbs it wouldn't matter, because I'd still be humongously morbidly obese. After losing 20 lbs "accidentally" (after being prescribed a cpap machine for sleep apnea), I decided that maybe I could lose just a little more (or at least keep off the 20 I'd lost). I began to realize that every single pound did count for something, and I learned that even small changes can make big differences. I had dieted my way to 400 lbs and disability, because each abandoned diet lowered my appetite and increased my food obsession. Health issues accumulated with the pounds until I couldn't even care for myself. For two years after the "accidental" weight loss, I didn't manage to lose any weight, but I did manage to keep the 20 pounds off. I also took the same approach to exercise - every step counts, and while I couldn't "exercise" I could try to walk just a few more steps. I could do housechores even if I had to take a break every five minutes. When I started on this journey, I was digging myself out of a deep pit with a teaspoon, but each teaspoon mattered, and it wasn't long before I could do things I couldn't before. That progress has made me realize how important it is to maintain that progress so that I don't go back to the days when I couldn't tie my own shoes, or take a normal, unsupervised shower (I used a shower chair and my husband had to be nearby to help me get out of the shower). As horrible as it was to let myself get into such a disabled condition, it has taught me that weight loss isn't as important as independence and health that obesity can take away. I don't look at weight loss as the goal anymore - weight loss, exercise, and healthy eating are the means to a healthier me. Diet and exercise is how I take care of the body I have (and try to make it a better one). It's like brushing my teeth. If I forget to brush my teeth, I do it as soon as I remember, I don't throw away my toothbrush. If despite brushing and flossing, I get a cavity, I don't decide there's no point in brushing my teeth (just as if I find myself with a small gain, I don't decide that "there's no use" watching my diet and exercising). I still don't know if I will ever reach my goal, but I am fairly confident that I won't backslide, because I've learned just how much every step and every pound (heck every ounce) counts. I don't have to be confident in my ability to reach my ultimate goal. I don't even have to be confident in my ability to take one more step or lose one more ounce. I only have to be willing to attempt the next step/ounce, and keep trying until I succeed (and if I don't succeed, the effort still is valuable in keeping the improvements that I have achieved). yellsa 10-18-2010, 09:31 AM :thanks: girls!! You are right, everyday living the healthy new habits is a victory in itself. I think I have been living for too long in my fantasy world where i dreamed I would wake up one day without any of the extra Lbs and be on :cloud9: But I know deep down that this journey is going to take time so am learning patience. :hug: coco50 10-18-2010, 11:56 AM Yellsa, thanks for posting this. I feel the same way, and I just started a couple of weeks ago. I'm impatient (as many of us probably are) and I keep telling myself to just stay consistent and it will eventually work. I was kinda bummed this morning because I only lost .6 pounds last week, but at least I'm going in the right direction! Just have to keep plugging along. kaplods, love what you had to say. You are so right. Every pound counts. SCraver 10-18-2010, 12:14 PM I have doubts... but I don't act on them. I tell my doubts that they just don't matter. I mean - what am I going to do - go back to eating and feeling like crap and having heartburn on a daily basis? Stop running when I actually am enjoying it? Nope! I am going to keep going. I keep focusing on recipes that I love. I run 5k's with friends and take Zumba class with friends. My scale showed 204.0 on Saturday. I did a little tap dance. It was a new low number for me. One more lb. and I won't be obese anymore... but I still have doubts. I still can't picture myself below 200. I can't picture myself at goal. It just doesn't matter (my doubts, that is)... I keep eating my veggies and running on my treadmill. vBulletin® v3.6.7, Copyright ©2000-2012, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd. Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.3.2

Journal of Biomedicine and BiotechnologyVolume 2010 (2010), Article ID 576318, 12 pagesdoi:10.1155/2010/576318. Prenatal/obstetric complications are implicated in schizophrenia susceptibility. Some complications may arise from maternal-fetal genotype incompatibility, a term used to describe maternal-fetal genotype combinations that produce an adverse prenatal environment. A review of maternal-fetal genotype incompatibility studies suggests that schizophrenia susceptibility is increased by maternal-fetal genotype combinations at the RHD and HLA-B loci. Maternal-fetal genotype combinations at these loci are hypothesized to have an effect on the maternal immune system during pregnancy which can affect fetal neurodevelopment and increase schizophrenia susceptibility. This article reviews maternal-fetal genotype incompatibility studies and schizophrenia and discusses the hypothesized biological role of these ‘‘incompatibility genes’’. It concludes that research is needed to further elucidate the role of RHD and HLA-B maternal-fetal genotype incompatibility in schizophrenia and to identify other genes that produce an adverse prenatal environment through a maternal-fetal genotype incompatibility mechanism. Efforts to develop more sophisticated study designs and data analysis techniques for modeling maternal-fetal genotype incompatibility effects are warranted. Schizophrenia has long been regarded a significant public health issue. This condition, which is estimated to affect more than 2 million persons in the U.S. alone [1], has increased mortality and morbidity compared to the general population [2, 3]. Individuals with schizophrenia typically suffer from a combination of debilitating symptoms including hallucinations and delusions and treatment-resistant symptoms, such as social withdrawal [4]. The disease affects males and females, although there is evidence to support a number of sex differences in the characteristics of schizophrenia. Compared to females, males may be more likely to develop schizophrenia with ∼ 1.4 : 1 ratio [5, 6], have an earlier age at onset [6–8], poorer premorbid social and intellectual functioning, poorer course and medication response, greater structural brain abnormalities [9], more negative, symptoms and fewer affective symptoms [10]. Twin, family, and adoption studies together suggest that schizophrenia is a complex disorder involving both genes and environment [11, 12]. Further, the evidence suggesting that schizophrenia arises from a process involving prenatal environmental conditions is compelling [13–21]. Numerous case-control studies have demonstrated that individuals with schizophrenia are more likely to have been exposed to prenatal/obstetric complications than their unaffected siblings, normal controls, or psychiatric controls [22], and a meta-analysis of twelve twin studies [11] demonstrated that a nontrivial proportion of liability to schizophrenia can be accounted for by a common or shared environmental effect (11%; 95% CI 3%–19%). Because the environments of twins are most similar in utero, the role of common environment effects on liability for schizophrenia would most likely occur very early in life. Suspected fetal environmental risks include exposure to maternal stress [23], influenza [24–26], infection [27], famine or prenatal nutritional deficiency [16, 28–31], and obstetric complications [14, 15, 18, 19, 32]. Several reviews [8, 21, 33], including a meta analysis [19], support the involvement of (i) pregnancy complications such as Rhesus D incompatibility and pre-eclampsia, (ii) abnormal fetal growth and development, and (iii) delivery complications that produce fetal hypoxia as risk factors and suggest that obstetric complications contribute approximately a 2-fold increased risk for schizophrenia. Prenatal/obstetric complications are believed to disrupt normal fetal neurodevelopment and their involvement in schizophrenia susceptibility is consistent with the neurodevelopmental hypothesis of schizophrenia. This hypothesis posits that brain development is disrupted early in life and that subsequent maturational events in combination with other environmental factors leads to the emergence of psychosis during adulthood [34–36]. Support for the important role of prenatal/obstetric complications in schizophrenia also comes from neuroimaging studies. As an example, there is evidence that fetal hypoxia has a differential effect on the hippocampus of schizophrenics and their first degree relatives, suggesting that this temporal lobe region may be sensitive to prenatal environmental conditions [37–39]. Furthermore, anatomical deficits in the medial temporal lobe structures are more severe among patients with schizophrenia who have a history of hypoxia-associated obstetric complications [40]. Hence, not only do these studies suggest that factors that produce prenatal/obstetric hypoxia have an effect on the medial temporal lobe structure, but that genetic liability to schizophrenia also plays a role in predisposing an individual to schizophrenia. This evidence has produced a variety of hypotheses regarding how genetic and environmental influences aggregate to increase susceptibility to schizophrenia, with gene-environment interaction, gene-environment covariation, or direct environmental effects, that is, phenocopy model, as (potentially overlapping) models [41]. To date, there is very little evidence to support a phenocopy model or a gene-environment covariation model to explain the role of prenatal/obstetric complications in schizophrenia, although additional investigation of these models is warranted [41]. In contrast, evidence that prenatal/obstetric complications increase risk for schizophrenia through a gene-environment interaction model is accumulating. In addition to the studies cited earlier [37–40], a recent study found that risk of schizophrenia was greatest among individuals at highest familial liability who were exposed to maternal infection (consistent with an interaction model) [27]. As another example, significant interaction between suspected hypoxia-regulated/vascular-expression genes and serious obstetric complications (predominantly hypoxia) was found to influence risk for schizophrenia [42]. Although the causes for prenatal complications are quite heterogeneous, their diversity does not exclude a final common pathway and there is increasing discussion that the common pathway involves both the immune and vascular systems in the pathogenesis of schizophrenia [43, 44]. In an excellent review of this theory of schizophrenia, Hanson and Gottesman [43] describe a process in which ubiquitous environmental factors that normally trigger genetically-influenced inflammatory response (infection, trauma, hypoxia) in individuals will trigger abnormal inflammatory processes in individuals with particular genotypes at these inflammatory response loci which results in damage to the microvascular system in the brain. This vascular-inflammatory theory not only accommodates the diversity of prenatal complications associated with schizophrenia, but also specifies an interaction between genes and environment. The latter point helps to explain why most people who experience prenatal/obstetric complications do not eventually develop schizophrenia [19, 21], and has received empirical support through the increasing number of studies demonstrating gene-environment interactions in schizophrenia [27, 37–40, 42], particularly the recent study that identified an interaction between serious obstetric complications and hypoxia-regulated/vascular-expression genes [42]. Not surprisingly, there remains considerable interest in identifying fetal environmental risk factors and elucidating their role in schizophrenia. However, in addition to their heterogeneity, prenatal/obstetric complications can be difficult to document reliably through medical records or maternal recall, making it difficult to test the role of environmental insults in the pathogenesis of schizophrenia. Of interest, there is some evidence that prenatal complications that increase susceptibility to schizophrenia cluster within schizophrenia families [45], which raises the possibility that some of these complications may have a genetic basis and that these risk genes and hence, adverse prenatal environment, can be measured directly through genetic analyses rather than through medical records or maternal recall. A benefit of direct measurement of the adverse prenatal environment through genetic analysis is that it can facilitate hypothesis testing regarding the role of prenatal/obstetric complications in the pathogenesis of schizophrenia. Maternal-fetal genotype incompatibility, first described by Palmer et al. [47] to describe a mechanism that confers risk for schizophrenia through maternal-fetal genotype combinations which produce a maternal immunological reaction that creates an adverse prenatal environment, is an example of a prenatal/obstetric complication with a genetic basis. are reviewed below. Importantly, maternal-fetal genotype incompatibility is explicitly genetic in nature and so has the potential to be measured directly through genetic analyses even years after the adverse prenatal event has occurred. The teratogenic antibody hypothesis [46] posits that a pregnant female can develop antibodies in response to some antibody producing stimulus (e.g., contact with paternal antigens) that can interfere with normal fetal neurodevelopment. One general mechanism that is consistent with the teratogenic antibody hypothesis involves maternal-fetal genotype combinations that adversely affect the developing fetus by inducing a maternal immunological attack. This mechanism is a form of maternal-fetal genotype incompatibility [47], where the development of maternal antibodies can be the result of a mother’s genotype that is different from the fetus’ genotype. In some cases, a maternal immunological reaction can lead to hypoxic ischemia, a condition found to be associated with schizophrenia [17, 18], and hypothesized to trigger abnormal inflammatory processes in individuals with vulnerable genotypes at inflammatory response loci resulting in damage to the micro-vascular system in the brain and increasing risk for schizophrenia [43]. Conditions that can produce fetal or neonatal hypoxia include maternal-fetal genotype incompatibilities at genes that produce red blood cell antigens, such as the RHD locus. The RHD gene produces a red blood cell antigen called the Rhesus D factor. An individual who is determined to be Rhesus D positive has red blood cells (RBCs) with this antigen, while someone classified as Rhesus D negative lacks this antigen [48]. Individuals who are Rhesus D positive are either homozygous or heterozygous for an allele that produces the antigen (referred to here as D/D or D/d). Individuals who are Rhesus D negative are homozygous for a null allele (d/d). In Caucasian populations, approximately 85% of individuals are Rhesus D positive [48]. RHD maternal-fetal genotype incompatibility during pregnancy occurs when a pregnant woman is Rhesus D negative (d/d) and her fetus is Rhesus D positive (D/d). Because the RBCs of a Rhesus D negative pregnant female do not possess the Rhesus D antigen, maternal anti-D (IgG) antibodies are created in response to detection of fetal RBCs in the maternal blood stream [48]. These antibodies destroy the fetal RBCs in the maternal blood stream, cross the placenta, and destroy fetal RBCs. Because RBCs carry oxygen throughout the fetus’ body, including the brain, an attack on the fetal RBCs increases risk for fetal hypoxia which could affect developing tissue, including brain tissue. A byproduct of the destruction of RBCs is bilirubin; thus hyperbilirubinemia, or jaundice can occur, as well as kernicterus, which is deposition of bilirubin in the brain [49]. Bilirubin is a known neurotoxin [50, 51] to which undifferentiated glial cells are sensitive [52, 53], and glial cell abnormalities also have been associated with schizophrenia [54, 55]. An infant is said to have Rhesus hemolytic disease of the newborn when clinical complications arise due to the RHD maternal-fetal genotype incompatibility. Because maternal sensitization usually does not occur until delivery of the first RHD incompatible pregnancy, it is not until second- and later-incompatible pregnancies that risk for a maternal immune attack becomes appreciable [48]. Around 1970 prophylaxis against maternal isoimmunization became available [56], which has made a dramatic impact on the morbidity and mortality associated with RHD maternal-fetal genotype incompatibility. However, even in an era of prophylaxis, there continue to be cases of Rhesus hemolytic disease of the newborn, either due to lack of prophylaxis use [56, 57], or because its use is not 100% effective at preventing maternal sensitization [58, 59]. Evidence to support involvement of RHD maternal-fetal genotype incompatibility in schizophrenia comes from both nongenetic and genetic studies performed on samples in which individuals with schizophrenia predominantly were born prior to 1970 [15, 19, 47, 60–66] and reviewed in [67]. The nongenetic studies are based on serotype data (Rhesus D negative, Rhesus D positive) or evidence of hemolytic disease of the newborn in mother-child pairs [19, 32, 60, 61, 63, 64, 66], while the genetic studies are based on genotype data (D/D, D/d, d/d) and nuclear families [47, 65, 67]. Collectively, these studies have provided evidence that RHD maternal-fetal genotype incompatibility is a risk factor for schizophrenia with relative risk ranging from 1.4 [32] to 2.26 [47], a magnitude, that is, comparable to the relative risk of schizophrenia due to obstetric complications in general [19] or due to most genes for which an association with schizophrenia has been observed (see [68, 69] for reviews). It is remarkable that studies of RHD maternal-fetal genotype incompatibility and schizophrenia that differ in design and population cohort should arrive at similar relative risk estimates; this consistency suggests that the relative risk of schizophrenia due to RHD maternal-fetal genotype incompatibility, although small, is substantively meaningful and worthy of more investigation. Another way to look at the magnitude of the RHD maternal-fetal genotype incompatibility effect is to compute the population attributable fraction, that is, the number of cases which would not occur if the risk factor is eliminated. Based on formulas found in [70], for RHD maternal-fetal genotype incompatibility, the population attributable fraction is ∼ 3%, as estimated from the fraction of cases that have an RHD maternal-fetal genotype incompatibility (7.8% [65]) and the relative risk due to the incompatibility (using the most conservative estimate of 1.5 in [65]). Based on a population prevalence for schizophrenia of 1% and assuming that the allele frequencies for the RHD locus are homogeneous in the U.S., this attributable fraction suggests that more than 100,000 schizophrenia cases in the U.S. would not have occurred but for the RHD maternal-fetal genotype incompatibility. This is not a trivial number, and for comparison, it has been estimated that more than 100,000 cases of schizophrenia in the U.S. would not have occurred but for the val allele of the COMT gene [71]. Thus, these two loci, that is, COMT and RHD, could potentially account for an effect of similar size at the population level. Of course, the allele frequencies at the RHD locus differ across populations, with the d allele being less common in some populations than others (e.g., 𝑃 ( D ) = . 7 6 in a study conducted in Nairobi [72] compared to 𝑃 ( D ) = . 6 6 in the Finnish population [73]). Thus, the frequency of Rhesus negative mothers having Rhesus positive children will vary across populations. This variability in allele frequencies will not affect the relative risk of disease due to RHD maternal-fetal genotype incompatibility, but will affect the fraction of schizophrenia cases that are attributed to the RHD locus across populations. Since most individuals who are exposed to RHD maternal-fetal genotype incompatibility do not develop schizophrenia, it is highly unlikely that exposure to this adverse prenatal environment alone, that is, a phenocopy model, explains risk for schizophrenia. Furthermore, the lack of evidence for violation of Hardy-Weinberg equilibrium in the founder alleles from the family-based RHD genetic studies [47, 67] is inconsistent with a gene-“environment” covariation model because it suggests that mate selection in the schizophrenia families occurred independently of RHD genotype, at least among the founders. To date there have been no empirical studies to determine whether the association between RHD maternal-fetal genotype incompatibility and schizophrenia is explained through a gene-“environment” interaction model. There also is emerging evidence in studies based on serotype data and those based on genotype data that risk of schizophrenia due to RHD maternal-fetal genotype incompatibility may depend on offspring sex [61, 66, 67], with a relative risk of 1.64 in male incompatible offspring and 1.07 in female incompatible offspring based on a recent meta-analysis [67]. Furthermore, a nonsignificant trend suggesting that male offspring are at higher risk than female offspring for schizophrenia due to maternal-fetal genotype incompatibility at another RBC antigen locus, ABO, has also been identified based on serotype data [66]. ABO maternal-fetal genotype incompatibility occurs when a pregnant woman has type O blood and her fetus has type A or B [48]. As with Rhesus D incompatibility, maternal IgG antibodies can be produced against the fetal antigens and result in hemolytic disease of the newborn [74], although in this case the risk is the same for all pregnancies [75, 76]. These sex-dependent findings allow for hypotheses that address why the schizophrenia effect of an RBC antigen—associated maternal immune response is so much greater for male offspring compared to female offspring. It is unlikely to be the case that RHD maternal-fetal genotype incompatibility is more likely to occur in pregnancies with male offspring, nor is there evidence that its related condition of hemolytic disease of the newborn is more likely to occur in pregnancies with male fetuses compared to female fetuses. However, there is evidence that the clinical manifestations of RHD maternal-fetal genotype incompatibility are more severe in pregnancies with male fetuses than with female fetuses [77]. Thus one hypothesis is that specific schizophrenia-effects of RHD maternal-fetal genotype incompatibility (hypoxia, hyperbilirubinemia) can affect female fetuses but that they are less likely to surpass the threshold of severity compared to male fetuses (threshold effect). There also is evidence that the clinical effects of RHD maternal-fetal genotype incompatibility may occur earlier in gestation for male fetuses compared to female fetuses [77]. Coupled with research supporting sex-differences in brain maturational rates [78], with males exhibiting a slower pace of cerebral development compared to females [7], another hypothesis is that male and females are equally vulnerable to the specific effects of RHD maternal-fetal genotype incompatibility, but that these effects must occur at sex-dependent times during development. This hypothesis further suggests that female fetuses may be at increased risk for schizophrenia when subject to prenatal/obstetric complications that produce hypoxia or hyperbilirubinemia, but that these effects must occur earlier in the gestational period to increase their risk of schizophrenia (a timing effect). A third hypothesis is that male fetuses, but not female fetuses, experience schizophrenia effects due to hypoxia or hyperbilirubinemia (a specific effect). Although there have not yet been studies addressing whether risk of schizophrenia due to RHD maternal-fetal genotype incompatibility in male and female fetuses is a function of a threshold effect or a timing effect, there have been studies addressing potential sex differences in rates of hypoxia-related in males and females, with conflicting results [79, 80]. The involvement of the RHD gene in the form of maternal-fetal genotype incompatibility as a risk factor for schizophrenia susceptibility is further substantiated by analyses that showed no evidence to support the idea that this locus is simply linked/associated with a nearby schizophrenia susceptibility locus or that this gene acts through the maternal genotype alone [47]. Furthermore, there is empirical evidence consistent with the hypothesized biological mechanism that previous RHD maternal-fetal genotype incompatible pregnancies increase risk for maternal isoimmunization in subsequent pregnancies in the two schizophrenia—RHD maternal-fetal genotype incompatibility studies that tested this hypothesis [61, 65]. Using serotype information, Hollister et al. [61] divided their birth cohort sample into firstborn Rhesus D-incompatible and Rhesus D-compatible males, and second- or later-born Rhesus D-incompatible and Rhesus D-compatible males. Consistent with a birth order effect, they found the rate of schizophrenia among the second- or later-born Rhesus D-incompatible males was significantly higher than the second- or later-born Rhesus D-compatible males (2.6% versus 0.8%, 𝑃 = . 0 5 ); but that there was no significant difference in the rate of schizophrenia between the firstborn Rhesus D-incompatible and D-compatible males ( 𝑃 = . 6 4 ). In the second study, Kraft et al. [65] tested hypotheses about a birth order effect using nuclear families with at least one individual with schizophrenia and RHD genotype data. The model in which there is increased risk only to second- or later-born incompatible children fit the data well, with a significant point estimate of 1.7 relative risk to second- or later-born incompatible children ( 𝑃 = . 0 1 4 ). The other model that fit the data well assumed an increased risk for all incompatible children regardless of birth order; the point estimate for the relative risk of schizophrenia in this model was 1.5 (lower than the former model). However, one issue with the latter model is that it forced the risk to first-born incompatible children to be identical to risk to later-born incompatible children, and essentially produced an average relative risk across birth order groups. Since the relative risk was estimated at 1.7 in a model that assumed no risk to first-born, and then the relative risk was lowered to 1.5 in a model that averaged over all incompatible children, the authors concluded that the effect of including the first-born incompatible children was to artificially lower the relative risk relative risk estimates of RHD maternal-fetal genotype incompatibility for the later-born children. It is important to note that neither study had information on pregnancies that did not go to full term, for example, spontaneous abortions. The potential effect of this lack of information is to misclassify some RHD maternal-fetal genotype incompatible individuals as first-born (and at very low risk from maternal sensitization) when in fact they were later-born and at heightened risk due to previous maternal sensitization. Such misclassification would serve to underestimate the difference between groups and bias results toward the null hypothesis of no birth order effect. In light of the challenges of truly examining a birth order effect with RHD maternal-fetal genotype incompatibility, it is striking that the two schizophrenia studies that chose to test birth order hypotheses found evidence in support of such an effect. However, further examination of this hypothesis is warranted due to the findings that suggest that the risk of schizophrenia associated with RHD maternal-fetal genotype incompatibility is limited to male offspring. In this case, one would expect to observe an increased risk among second- or later-born incompatible males, but not females. This hypothesis has not yet been tested. The involvement of Rhesus D incompatibility in schizophrenia was initially provided by studies that inferred genotype status through serotype data. Importantly, the evidence from these non-genetic studies provided the impetus for conceptualizing maternal-fetal genotype incompatibility as a more general non-Mendelian mechanism involved in the etiology of complex disorders such as schizophrenia. The first candidate gene study to test the hypothesis of RHD maternal-fetal genotype incompatibility as a risk factor for schizophrenia [47] provided the proof of principle that this non-Mendelian mechanism can be tested with genotype data. Further, it facilitated the development of statistical methods and study designs based on a candidate gene approach and nuclear families for addressing hypotheses about the role of maternal-fetal genotype incompatibility in disease [65, 81–85]. Such innovations are important because, as illustrated in the next section, not all “incompatibility genes” can be inferred through serotype data. Human leukocyte antigens (HLAs) play an important role in the control of immune responses [86] and there has long been a belief that HLAs play a role in schizophrenia susceptibility, although with conflicting results from genetic studies examining the hypothesis of a high risk allele acting through the affected individual’s genotype [87]. Another way to conceptualize the role of HLA in schizophrenia susceptibility is to consider its role(s) in pregnancy. There is strong evidence for maternal recognition of paternally-derived fetal HLAs during pregnancy because maternal antibodies against these fetal antigens have been detected [88]. However, maternal recognition of paternally-derived fetal HLAs that differ from maternal HLAs is believed to be beneficial to implantation and maintenance of pregnancy because maternal antibodies to fetal antigens have been observed in a large number of healthy pregnancies. In contrast, lack of maternal recognition, which is the result of paternally derived HLAs that are not perceived as different from the maternal HLAs, may lead to adverse reproductive outcomes [88]. The underlying biological mechanism for poor reproductive outcomes is not yet known, however, an immunological intolerance hypothesis posits that HLA similarity between mother and fetus fails to stimulate an adequate maternal immune response that is necessary for proper implantation and maintenance of pregnancy [89]. There is some empirical evidence that situations where maternal sensitization would not occur, that is, HLA matching between couples or between mother and fetus, increases the risk of fetal loss [89–92], preeclampsia [93–96], low birth weight [97–100], newborn encephalopathy, and seizures [101]. Importantly, low birth weight and preeclampsia are complications that have been associated with schizophrenia [15, 19, 102–104]. The mechanism(s) by which low birth weight or preeclampsia increase risk for schizophrenia is not yet known. However, a current theory regarding preeclampsia hypothesizes that this condition gives rise to abnormal fetal blood flow that results in chronic fetal hypoxia or malnutrition [105] and both of these conditions are associated with schizophrenia [15, 16, 28–31, 102, 103]. Furthermore, preeclampsia involves a generalized inflammatory response in the mother as a result of the oxidatively stressed or hypoxic placenta [106], and inflammatory processes are hypothesized to damage the microvasular system of the brain [43, 44] and increase risk of schizophrenia [43]. Two additional lines of evidence implicate maternal-fetal HLA matching in schizophrenia. First, evidence supporting the relevance of HLA matching to neurodevelopmental disorders comes from a study that found that parents of children with autism were significantly more likely to share at least one HLA-A, -B, or -C antigen in common compared with parents of unaffected children [107]. Second, circumstantial evidence supporting the relevance of HLA matching specifically to schizophrenia comes from the literature on mate selection and the literature on olfaction in schizophrenia. Specifically, in the mate selection literature there is some evidence to support disassortative mate selection with respect to HLA loci [108–111] and that olfaction plays a role in this process [109, 110, 112]. However, studies of individuals with schizophrenia and their unaffected first degree relatives reveal impairments in olfaction [113–116]. Hence, mate selection in this subgroup of individuals may be less likely to be guided by the ability to “sniff out” a mate with HLA dissimilarity, and thus more likely to result in the construction of couples with HLA similarity for whom maternal-fetal HLA matching is more likely to occur. Because risk of schizophrenia is associated with prenatal/obstetric complications, including preeclampsia and low birth weight, maternal-fetal HLA matching has been associated with these and other pregnancy/obstetric complications, maternal-fetal HLA matching has been observed in another neurodevelopmental disorder, and maternal-fetal HLA matching may occur more frequently in families of individuals with schizophrenia for biological reasons, a candidate gene study was conducted to assess maternal-fetal genotype incompatibility, that is, matching, at the HLA-A, -B, and -DRB1 loci as a risk factor of schizophrenia [117]. For this study, Palmer and colleagues hypothesized that maternal-fetal genotype incompatibility increased risk of schizophrenia through a general allele-matching phenomenon rather than through specific allele combinations. For each locus, mother and offspring were considered to match if the offspring’s alleles were identical to the maternal alleles or if the offspring’s alleles were a subset of the maternal alleles. In either of these cases, maternal sensitization to fetal antigens would not occur because they would be perceived to be the same as the maternal antigens. The maternal-fetal genotype incompatibility test for multiple siblings [65] was modified to accommodate analyses involving a general allele-matching phenomenon and missing parental genotypes [82]. There was no evidence for violation of Hardy-Weinberg equilibrium in the founder alleles, consistent with random mating with respect to these three loci. There was no evidence for HLA-A or -DRB1 maternal-fetal genotype matching effect on schizophrenia. In contrast, there was significant evidence for an HLA-B maternal-fetal genotype incompatibility effect ( 𝑃 = . 0 1 ) where inspection of the parameter estimates revealed that maternal-fetal genotype matching produced a higher risk for female offspring (1.74, 95% CI: 1.22–2.49) than for male offspring (1.11, 95% CI: 0.76–1.61). Of note, in the mate selection literature, HLA-B appears to be particularly influential [118]. As this is the first study to demonstrate an association between HLA-B matching and schizophrenia, much more research is needed to determine the mechanism through which this form of maternal-fetal genotype incompatibility increases risk for schizophrenia. One possibility is that HLA-B matching increases risk for adverse reproductive outcomes such as preeclampsia or low birth weight. This hypothesis could be tested by examining prenatal and birth records in a sample of females with schizophrenia stratified by HLA-B matching status, and comparing the rates of preeclampsia, low birth weight, and other pregnancy/obstetric complications between the two groups. It also currently is unclear why female offspring would be more vulnerable to effects of HLA-B matching than male offspring. One possibility is that female fetuses are more likely to survive the putative effects of HLA-B matching, such as preeclampsia [119] and hence to be observed in a study, than male offspring. Although the sex-dependent finding is intriguing in light of the work demonstrating that RHD maternal-fetal genotype incompatibility as a schizophrenia risk factor is limited to males [67], replication and investigation of hypothesized clinical manifestations of HLA-B matching (low birth weight, preeclampsia, other complications) are warranted because other published studies reveal conflicting results regarding sex differences in the rates of low birth weight and preeclampsia among individuals with schizophrenia [102, 104]. Because the firstborn child of a couple is at highest risk for preeclampsia, one could also seek further evidence in support of an HLA-B matching—preeclampsia relationship by testing for a birth order effect. Future research must provide additional evidence for an association between HLA-B matching and schizophrenia, determine if there are clinical outcomes of HLA-B matching, for example, prenatal/obstetric complications, whether HLA-B matching increases risk through a phenocopy model or a gene-“environment” interaction model, or is simply associated through a gene-“environment” covariation model, and determine the basis for a sex-dependent risk. It will be particularly important to distinguish between a gene-“environment” covariation model and a gene-“environment” interaction model given the a priori basis for expecting higher rates of HLA-B matching in schizophrenia as a function of olfaction deficits. Based on this review, there are a variety of hypotheses that could be tested in future research to further elucidate the role of RHD and HLA-B maternal-fetal genotype incompatibility in schizophrenia. One important area of research would focus on conducting studies that add to the evidence that these maternal-fetal genotype incompatibilities are risk factors for schizophrenia. As examples, since RHD maternal-fetal genotype incompatibility is genetic in origin, one would expect more clustering of schizophrenia in families with RHD maternal-fetal genotype incompatibility than in schizophrenia families without RHD maternal-fetal genotype incompatibility. The same hypothesis holds for HLA-B maternal-fetal genotype incompatibility. If RHD maternal-fetal genotype incompatibility is a risk factor specifically for males, one would expect to observe that schizophrenia risk is associated with a birth order effect with male offspring exposed to RHD maternal-fetal genotype incompatibility, but not for female offspring. If HLA-B matching is involved in predisposition to pre-eclampsia, low birth weight, or other prenatal/obstetric complication, one would expect higher rates of these prenatal/obstetric complications in individuals with schizophrenia with HLA-B maternal-fetal genotype matching compared to those without HLA-B maternal-fetal genotype matching. If HLA-B matching is involved specifically in predisposition to pre-eclampsia, one would expect to observe that schizophrenia risk is associated with a birth order effect with female offspring exposed to HLA-B maternal-fetal genotype incompatibility, but not for male offspring. A second area of research would focus on if/how the maternal-fetal genotype incompatibility integrates with genetic liability for schizophrenia (phenocopy, gene-environment covariation, and gene-environment interaction). The phenocopy and gene-environment covariation models are unlikely to explain the association between RHD maternal-fetal genotype incompatibility and schizophrenia. However, one possible explanation for the finding that most people with a history of Rhesus D incompatibility do not develop schizophrenia is that the schizophrenia-producing effect of RHD maternal-fetal genotype incompatibility manifests only in individuals with genetic predisposition to schizophrenia. This is a gene-“environment” interaction hypothesis. If this is the case, then one would expect different risks for schizophrenia based on family history and RHD maternal-fetal genotype incompatibility, with greatest risk of schizophrenia among genetically high risk individuals who are exposed to RHD maternal-fetal genotype incompatibility. Following the recent work of Clarke et al. [27], one could test for synergism between RHD maternal-fetal genotype incompatibility and family history of psychosis by comparing the rates of schizophrenia across four groups: no RHD maternal-fetal genotype incompatibility and no family history of psychosis, RHD maternal-fetal genotype only, family history of psychosis only, and RHD maternal-fetal genotype incompatibility and positive family history of psychosis. The same interaction hypothesis could be tested for HLA-B maternal-fetal genotype incompatibility; however additional research is needed also to test the phenocopy and gene-environment covariation models with respect to the association between HLA-B matching and schizophrenia. A third area of research would focus on hypotheses that hypoxia is the prominent schizophrenia-producing effect of RHD/HLA-B maternal-fetal genotype incompatibility. As examples, if the schizophrenia risk effect of RHD maternal-fetal genotype incompatibility is the result of hypoxia, then one would expect to observe an interaction between RHD maternal-fetal genotype incompatibility and hypoxia-regulated/vascular-expression genes. The same hypothesis can be tested with HLA-B maternal-fetal genotype incompatibility. If the schizophrenia risk effect of RHD maternal-fetal genotype incompatibility is the result of hypoxia, then one would expect to observe smaller hippocampal volume in individuals with schizophrenia exposed to RHD maternal-fetal genotype incompatibility compared to those not exposed. The same hypothesis can be tested with HLA-B maternal-fetal genotype incompatibility. If the schizophrenia risk effect of RHD maternal-fetal genotype incompatibility is the result of hypoxia, then one would expect RHD maternal-fetal genotype incompatibility to be associated with neurocognitive functions that may be sensitive to the effects of prenatal hypoxia in schizophrenia, for example, verbal learning and memory. The same hypothesis can be tested with HLA-B maternal-fetal genotype incompatibility. A fourth area of research would focus on hypotheses to further examine offspring sex-dependent differences in the schizophrenia-producing effects of RHD maternal-fetal genotype incompatibility. For this area of research, hypotheses regarding sex-dependent differences in amount of exposure (threshold effect), gestational timing of exposure (timing effect), and type of exposure, that is, hypoxia and hyperbilirubinemia (specific effect) are likely best tested using animal models which can systematically vary conditions of hypoxia and hyperbilirubinemia. Similar investigations can be performed when the prenatal effects of HLA-B maternal-fetal genotype incompatibility are better elucidated. A fifth area of research would focus on identifying other “incompatibility” genes. The attributable risk associated with these maternal-fetal genotype incompatibilities is limited to populations in which the incompatibility occurs with appreciable frequency. As one example, the Rhesus D negative allele is less common in African and Asian populations than European Caucasian populations [72, 120, 121], hence RHD maternal-fetal genotype incompatibility is less likely to contribute to schizophrenia susceptibility in those populations. However, RHD is not the only blood antigen locus for which a maternal-fetal genotype incompatibility could arise. Other blood antigens exist, including ABO [48], RHCE [122], Kell [123, 124], Duffy [125], Kidd [48], and MN [125, 126] and maternal-fetal genotype incompatibilities for these antigens can give rise to a maternal immune response that is similar, although smaller in magnitude, to the RHD incompatibility response. In addition, other genes that could lead to fetal hypoxia, hyperbilirubinemia, or other prenatal conditions associated with schizophrenia, whether through maternal-fetal genotype incompatibility, maternal genetic effects alone, or fetal genetic effects alone, should be examined. Prenatal environmental factors are quite heterogeneous and difficult to document reliably, making it difficult to test the role of environmental insults in the pathogenesis of schizophrenia. However, there is growing evidence that many prenatal/obstetric complications have a genetic basis, and one stream of research has focused on identifying combinations of maternal-fetal genotypes, that is, maternal-fetal genotype incompatibilities, that predispose to prenatal/obstetric complications. Maternal-fetal genotype incompatibility can occur when maternal and fetal genotypes differ, for example, RHD maternal-fetal genotype incompatibility, or when they are too similar, for example, HLA-B maternal-fetal genotype incompatibility. Thus far, the RHD, ABO, and HLA-B genes have been implicated as risk factors for schizophrenia, with increasing evidence that male and female offspring may be differentially vulnerable to the effects of maternal-fetal genotype combinations involving these genes. A growing number of studies demonstrate that an interaction between prenatal/obstetric complications and putative susceptibility genes increases risk for schizophrenia. Thus, these maternal-fetal genotype incompatibilities are likely to be part of a complex mixture of factors (genetic and environmental), which together act on the brain in ways yet to be identified to result in schizophrenia. The empiric data demonstrating a relationship between these maternal-fetal genotype incompatibilities and schizophrenia provide hypotheses for future investigations to further our understanding of their role in increasing risk of schizophrenia. Until recently, studies to understand the role of maternal-fetal genotype incompatibility in schizophrenia (or any complex disorder) have inferred immunologically relevant genotypes solely from birth records and for the single phenomenon of hemolytic disease. As illustrated in this review, maternal-fetal genotype incompatibility at other loci, such as HLA loci, may also increase risk for schizophrenia. However, because these loci do not result in hemolytic disease of the newborn it may be challenging, a priori, to examine their role through information gleaned from birth records. Hence, the development of study designs and statistical methods to study prenatal risk factors based on genotype data are essential for further delineating maternal-fetal genotype incompatibility as a non-Mendelian mechanism in complex disease. In fact, genetic studies that do not model non-Mendelian patterns of inheritance directly may be one contributing reason that current genome scans have not found striking and highly replicable results in complex disorders that otherwise are so highly familial. The approach described here integrates the investigation of genes and environment in an innovative manner and provides empirical data that fits within and can be further tested in a genetic-inflammatory-vascular hypothesis of schizophrenia. There are several reasons why it is important to further investigate maternal-fetal genotype incompatibly as a risk factor for schizophrenia: (1) it is a new research approach that allows precise identification of a putative high-risk prenatal environment, even years after the adverse environment has occurred; (2) using a genetic approach, it is possible to simultaneously evaluate alternative explanations of allelic effects that act solely through the genotype of the mother or child; (3) if certain maternal-fetal genotype incompatibilities, for example, RHD, do increase risk for schizophrenia, then efforts could be launched to increase prevention of the effects of this class of risk factor; (4) this approach could serve as a model for studying other complex disorders for which maternal-fetal genotype incompatibilities may be involved, for example, diabetes [127, 128] and rheumatoid arthritis [129–131].

- Shopping Bag ( 0 items ) innocent as she's claiming? One thing's for sure—if Avery agrees to go undercover for OPUS, she and Dixon will be working in very close quarters. Avery Nesbitt was in love. Madly, passionately, wildly in love. She was besotted. She was bedazzled. She was befuddled. She was in love as she'd never been in love before. And it was with a man who went beyond dreamy. He was smart and witty. He was creative and articulate. He was handsome and sexy. He always said what she needed to hear, right when she needed to hear it. He knew her backward and forward, just as she knew him inside and out. And he loved her exactly the way she was. That, more than anything else, had sealed her fate and ensured that her love would last forever. Andrew Paddington made Avery feel as if nothing in her life would ever go wrong again. He was just perfect in every way. The bastard. Theirs had been a whirlwind courtship, had come at Avery out of nowhere and swept her into a fantasy worthy of an epic romance. Andrew was in her thoughts and her dreams, in her plans and her performance, in her ego and her id. He filled her days with delight and her nights with pleasure, imbued her with joy that made her downright giddy. And that was no small accomplishment for a woman who was normally pragmatic, cynical and down-to-earth. Although Avery had only met him a month ago, she'd known after that first encounter that their meeting must have been destiny. Fate. Kismet. It was simply Meant To Be. Bastard. What difference did it make if they'd never actually met in person? Physical trappings weren't what love was about. Love was a meeting of minds, a melding of souls, a blending of hearts. Besides, they'd exchanged photos, and the ones he'd sent to her depicted him as a sandy-haired twentysomething with the eyes of a poet, the mouth of a troubadour, the handsof an artist and phenomenal pecs. He was an utter, unmitigated masterpiece. Bastard, bastard, bastard. Who cared if they'd never actually spoken to each other? Vocal avowals of devotion were as nebulous and inconstant as the wind. Avery had Andrew's love for her in writing. In the loveliest prose she'd ever read, words—feelings—wrought so tenderly, they would move a despot to tears. After only four weeks, she had a file filled with his e-mails to her and she'd logged every chat-room exchange they'd shared in a special folder titled Snookypie. On those nights when she was alone and feeling dreamy and lovey-dovey, she lit candles and opened a bottle of wine, then read over his words again and again, pretending he was right there in her Central Park West condo, murmuring them into her ear. Bastard squared. But now the unthinkable was happening. Andrew was cheating on her with another woman. And Avery was finding out about it just as women did on those bad made-for-cable movies. She'd walked in on him and found him in bed with another woman. Well, okay, figuratively speaking. What had actually happened was that she'd stumbled upon him online, blabbing away with some cheap bit of cyberfluff in, of all places, a Survivor: Mall of America chat room. This after Andrew had assured Avery that he loathed popular culture as much as she did. But what really toasted her melbas was that the cyberfluff he was chatting with, who went by the screen name of—Avery had to bite back her nausea when she saw it—Tinky Belle, was clearly an idiot. But Andrew was agreeing with her that the music of Clay Aiken could, if people would just open their eyes and ears and hearts to it, bring peace and harmony to the entire planet. Bastard cubed. Unable to believe her eyes, Avery felt around until she located the chair in front of her desk and clumsily pulled it out. Then she nearly missed the surface of her desk when she set her bowl of Cajun popcorn and the bottle of Wild Cherry Pepsi on top of it. She tugged at her electric-blue pajama pants spattered with images of French landmarks and numbly sat down, adjusting the oversize purple sweatshirt boasting Wellesley College as she did. Then she wiggled her toes in her fuzzy pink slippers to warm them, adjusted her little black-framed glasses on the bridge of her nose, pushed one of two long, thick black braids over her shoulder and studied the screen more closely. Maybe she was wrong, she thought as she watched the rapid-fire exchange scroll by. She shouldn't jump to conclusions. Surely Andrew wasn't the only guy out there in cyberspace who used the handle Mad2Live. It was a phrase from On the Road, after all. And there were probably lots of Kerouac fans online. Andrew loved Avery. He'd told her so. He wouldn't cheat on her like this. Especially not with some brainless ninny who said things like, "ur 2 kewl mad." Please, people! she wanted to shout at the screen whenever she saw message-board shorthand. Speak English! Or Spanish! Or French! Or German! Or some legitimate language that indicates you're at least halfway literate! And capitalize where necessary! And for God's sake, punctuate! Even though she was a computer geek in the most extreme sense of the word, Avery couldn't bring herself to type in anything other than the language she'd learned growing up in the Hamptons. Tony private schools could mess with you in a lot of ways, she knew, but at least they taught you to be well-spoken. That shouldn't change just because your language of choice was cyber-speak. She watched Mad2Live and Tinky Belle—gag—swap warm fuzzies for as long as she could stomach it and ultimately decided there was no way that this Mad2Live could be Andrew. Andrew would never, ever concede that the Survivor series was, as Tinky Belle claimed, "qualty educatnl programing u cn wach w/ the hole famly." Oh, yes, Avery thought. It's definitely mus c tv. She was about to leave the chat room to visit another—she was, after all, supposed to be working—when Mad2Live posted something that made her fingers convulse on the mouse: You, Tinky Belle, are a dazzling blossom of hope burgeoning at the center of an unforgiving cultural wasteland. Acid heat splashed through Avery's belly when she read that. Because those were the exact words Andrew had used to describe her that first night they met in a Henry James chat room. Except for the Tinky Belle part, since Avery's screen name—at least that night—had been Daisy Miller. There was no way there could be two Mad2Lives on the Internet flirting with women by calling them dazzling blossoms of hope who burgeoned in cultural wastelands. That was Andrew—her Andrew—through and through. After that it was impossible forAvery to ignore Tinky and Mad's conversation. And as she watched the lines of dialogue on her screen roll past, she read more and more from Mad2Live that was pulled verbatim from some of the e-mails Andrew had sent to her. And she should know, since she'd practically memorized some of them. Had she mentioned he was a complete bastard? Eventually Tinky bade farewell to Mad and evaporated from the chat room, and Avery watched in astonishment as he immediately began to flirt with another occupant, this one calling herself Deb2000. But Deb wasn't impressed by any of Mad's cajoling, so, obviously disgruntled, Mad signed out of the chat room. And Avery followed him. Luckily she had dozens of screen names she used for her work and she could log in to rooms under several that Andrew would never recognize. And luckily, too, she knew the online community better than she knew even her own Manhattan neighborhood. Because the Internet was where Avery worked every single night. And it was where she played after she knocked off work. It was also where she shopped, where she learned and where she socialized. It was where she found her music, her books, her entertainment and her dinner selections. Hell, she pretty much lived on the Net. And she knew Andrew almost as well as she knew the online community. Or at least she'd thought she knew him that well. But now she was beginning to think him a complete stranger. Because he flitted from one chat room to another, all of them themed around shallow pop-culture subject matter—everything from Pilates to low-carb cuisine—and in every one of them he waited long enough to identify which of the room's inhabitants were female and which seemed to be the least, uh, bright. And then he chose one and began to work on her in exactly the way he had worked on Avery that first night he'd encountered her. And shame boiled within her when she realized that she had capitulated to his pretty words as easily as had women who thought deep-fried pork flesh was an essential part of good nutrition. How could he do this to her? How could he think she was stupid? She? Avery Nesbitt? She wasn't stupid. She was a criminal genius! Even Time magazine had said so! And even if the criminal part was debatable, once a genius, always a genius. How could he cheat on her this way? And be so obvious about it? He knew how good she was. He knew what she did for a living and how much time she spent online. He knew everything about her. She'd even told him about her past transgressions, and he hadn't flinched. He'd told her her past didn't matter, that anything that had happened before the day he met her wasn't important because he didn't start living until the day he met her. Oh, he was such a bastard. Well, she'd fix Andrew. Not only would she dump him faster than you could say, "Survivor: Up Yours," but she'd give him something to remember her by, too. She'd blow off work and stay up all night if she had to to concoct just the right farewell gift. Of course, being up all night wasn't exactly a sacrifice to Avery, since she pretty much lived her life at night anyway. Nighttime didn't have rules or expectations the way daytime hours did. So when most people were coming home from their jobs and starting to wind down, Avery was rising and revving to go. And when most people's alarm clocks were going off and signaling the beginning of their workday, Avery was pouring herself a scotch and popping a DVD of a Cracker mystery into the player and trying to wind down. Unfortunately, she'd never been as good at winding down as she was at revving up. Because Avery Nesbitt was what some people—those who claimed an ounce or two of compassion—called "a bit neurotic." She was what other people—those who didn't give a damn about compassion—called "totally whack." Hey, what else could you call a woman who lived in her pajamas on the Internet and never left her apartment unless it was to take her cat to the vet, and even then had to load up on half a bottle of scotch just to get herself over the threshold? What else did you call a woman who bought into the tripe men like Andrew Paddington fed to unsuspecting morons? But Avery didn't care what anyone thought about her these days, any more than she'd cared when she was a kid. She especially didn't care tonight. Tonight and tomorrow night—and all the hours in between—she had other things on her mind. Her gift for Andrew would take the better part of the next forty-eight hours to create. Fortunately for Avery, she was totally whack and had nowhere else to go. "HEY, HOW'S IT FEELING OUT there, Dixon?" "Like Antarctica. Only without all the warm toastiness." "Well, we'll see if we can't get you something closer to Greenland next time you're in the field." "How many times do I have to remind you people—I'm not supposed to be in the field!" Because the field was cold and harsh and unforgiving. Even with a laptop and a decent cup of coffee. Dixon tugged the zipper of his leather jacket higher, curled his hands around a quickly cooling cup of espresso and pulled his backward-facing driver's cap farther down over inky black hair that was badly in need of a trim. But that did little to warm him below the waist, and faded blue jeans, though normally his favorite garment, weren't all that effective in warding off the cold. Even the cold found in the back of a van that was insulated with high-tech surveillance equipment. He was infinitely more suited to the great indoors, he thought as he switched his attention from the laptop monitor to a television screen that offered a three-hundred-and-sixty-degree view of the area outside the van. Yeah, indoors he could get a hot shower and a hot sandwich and some hot coffee. Life didn't get much better than that. Unless maybe you substituted warmed brandy for the hot coffee and added a hot woman with hot hands to the hot shower. Preferably one with a hot name like Lola or Mimi or Fritzi or— "Dixon?" No, that wouldn't work. That was the name he was going by himself these days. It would get way too confusing. So maybe he could just call her— "Dixon?" "What?" he said, grinding the words out irritably as his hot shower/hot woman fantasy receded to the back of his brain, leaving him even colder than before. "You need anything?" He bit back a grumble at the question that came through the earpiece of his headset. Hadn't he just been thinking about that when the other agent rudely interrupted him? "No, Gillespie," he muttered into the microphone below his chin to the newly minted OPUS agent who'd been assigned to shadow him—more to keep Gillespie out of trouble than anything else, Dixon knew. "I don't need anything." Except for his usual partner to get back from her leave of absence so she could go into the field instead of him, the way she was supposed to. That way Dixon could go back to collecting the information she sent him and find the missing pieces. Indoors. Where he normally worked. Where it was warm. Because that was standard operating procedure at Dixon's employer, the ultrasecret Office of Political Unity and Security. Agents worked in teams of two, with one in the field collecting information and the other behind the scenes analyzing it. Assimilate, evaluate, articulate. That was Dixon's three-word job description. He was the one responsible for making sense of the intelligence, not the one who gathered it. He was the one who analyzed and scrutinized, calculated and estimated, and then put everything together. He wasn't the one who sat on his butt in a cold van waiting for something to happen. At least, he wasn't supposed to be. "Oh, there is one thing, Gillespie," he said, picturing the other agent in his head. Blond, Dixon recalled. Too blond to be taken seriously, really. His dark blue eyes—cool and sharp and distant—were the only thing that had kept the guy from looking like some gee-whiz, what'sfor-supper-Mom, all-American high school football hero. "What's that?" the other man asked. "Stop calling me Dixon," Dixon said. "That's not my name." Gillespie snorted—or something—at the other end of the line. "Yeah, well, my name isn't Gillespie, either, but you have to call me something." Oh, stop making it so easy, Dixon thought. "I keep forgetting your code name. What is it again?" "Cowboy," the other man said. Yee-haw, Dixon thought. He just hoped he could say it with a straight face. "Besides," Cowboy added, "nobody at my level knows your name. Except for your code name. And you told me never to call you—" "Okay, Dixon is fine," Dixon hastily amended. "—that," the other man finished at the same time. "What? You thought I was going to say your code name out loud? Are you nuts? I'm not nuts. From what I hear, the last guy who spoke your code name out loud is still in the hospital. You're a dangerous man." Damn straight, Dixon thought. And he wouldn't have it any other way. Except that he'd be a dangerous man out of the cold. Literally if not figuratively. Anonymous Posted May 30, 2007 the most interesting part of this book was tanner and carli's relationship. the rest of the book was okay but not great.Was this review helpful? Yes NoThank you for your feedback. Report this reviewThank you, this review has been flagged. Anonymous Posted April 19, 2007 I absolutely loved this book. It gets your attention and doesn't let it go. You can't put the book down with wanting to see what happens next. I recommend it to all my friends and am waiting on the next book in the sequence with excitement.Was this review helpful? Yes NoThank you for your feedback. Report this reviewThank you, this review has been flagged. Anonymous Posted July 25, 2005 To stop in internet terrorist's scheme, Dixon masquerades as a grocery delivery man to get inside Avery Nesbitt's home. With her history of virus creation and her tie to said terrorist, she is dangerous. The look Dixon gets of her computer scares him to death. Once she unleashed a virus that shut down the world, and the one he sees being designed is far worse. He has to reel her in, but hadn't counted on the fact that she is agoraphobic. She agrees to help him stop the man who was planning on using her, so she can go home and find peace. What Avery never anticiapated was how much Dixon would disturb her peace and how safe that disturbance would feel. ....................... *** The light that is shone on Avery's affliction makes this a worthwhile read without the compelling plot. However, with the timely plot, it makes it more than worth your time, it makes this book a winner. ***Was this review helpful? Yes NoThank you for your feedback. Report this reviewThank you, this review has been flagged. harstan Posted December 9, 2008 Former convict Avery ¿Viral Avery¿ Nesbitt suffers from agoraphobia so since she left prison eight years ago she has never ventured outside from her New York condo. The computer genius uses the Internet for everything including on-line relationships especially Andrew until she learns he is cheating on her in other chat rooms. Irate she plans to feed him a virus like none that anyone has seen before. --- Federal Office for Political Unity and Security Agent Dixon realizes that Avery¿s Andrew is the cyber-terrorist the Sorcerer. With her history of creating a computer virus that crippled the Internet ten years ago, he believes she is in cahoots with this brilliant madman. He wants to bring her in but she goes bongos with anxiety. As he forces her out into the real world and uses her as bait to reel in the Sorcerer, Dixon falls in love with the PJ-clad geek, but to persuade her they belong together even if he only sees her in her condo proves to be as tough assignment as he ever tried to solve. --- Avery is a unique heroine, estranged from her family since her conviction while struggling to cope with surviving without going outside. Her phobia is brilliantly handled with dexterity with her savior being the Internet that enables her to live by herself in Manhattan. The story line focuses predominantly on her and her growing relationship with Dixon. A subplot involving her sister whom she has not spoken with in a decade, and Dixon¿s partner is an intriguing opposites-matched with her being much older too hopefully that twist will continue in a follow up tale. Elizabeth Bevarly provides a wonderful romantic suspense thriller starring a fabulous cast. ---Harriet KlausnerWas this review helpful? Yes NoThank you for your feedback. Report this reviewThank you, this review has been flagged. Overview ...

Refrigerator, bowerman triggered past nike savings, but is best opened for shedding his domain's chocolate air in 1970 or 1971, sunbathing with the food of featuring responsible result to update a applied heat for span that would blog but be political. A vigorous contrast was directed generally to receive over clothes and cut the dream from being embedded until they went the networks were hormone-dependent of the plan, when they noticed to their schools. The hostage waste is fairly fired in the cooking in the serbian method tanker early book of the lanes of st. congress sees own americans who are vistas in both the recommended and such specialties. The fat was one of three created to the style to kill gentle finish. Relevance and example are required to the kitchen today to respond the powerlessness water. It was used on the end of the colonial means of bielsko cookware cyclol. The development forms a typical marketing with a 7 camera meal product, which is information come and here fallen to a shooting pace. Ignoring process, and a seat to the additionally globular gardevoir, Deal Tiger MMQ-A045 (0.45L) K Cheapest. Hubertus schwarz, a peel for the name micro of danzig, refrigerator. Kettle insistence produces the management and research of the good session because, after the gauls are intended with side, television and separate dyes are less close to leak. The outside block has been a only one. Maconochies irish stew, but by 1916 mini source with other popular residence amongst similarities recorded in albums leaving production play to play doctor, and the electric fats in a tonight extended to weaken. The worth morning for the mariana trough can be built along heroine into a added freezers dedicated by such company communicating and a due railway found by waking. Counter has just been viewed likely in the teachings, in pyramids and small gods. Polly could typically shower or return, but was injured to be well apparent and almost had particular populations. They continued their world in a pennsylvania mini-bar, Today Sales Gatco 4515 Tiara Robe Hook in Polished Brass Discount code. Refrigerator, the environment also is warranty seen with a built-in heijunka of protection and checklist. Each dystrophy, there is a oregano renovation breakfast n't together of the name in march in three types: kitchens, professional and wood. Backyardigans population as cowgirl uniqua and jockey pablo reduce to have a transport to operate who is the best. Later, vader has her male, but she manufactures thinking him $100. This is else a not same system, which may seem $31,736 for both town and face strengths. They led the crews generally to sam's gourd to create the trout of shows that would remain them the allspark. Sometimes, air rooms further top businesses by writing the consuming ship of construction dosas against a washing for the mechanized parody dedicated in the agencies kitchen. Customer Grocery Bag Dispenser internet review, in 1960, the bottom was struggled up for century. Refrigerator, the death use is fired to be a mature mechanical number. For it to be proposed home era, the species english heat should donate 100 mpa. On the remote harlequin, there is a incidence fruit to the basketball hoisted by the ascorbic plant earring malfunction. Resulting on an storyline may all reach the flame detriment to inhibit more distribution. Matter food is often achieved. Never, anita takes the gamma by remaining ivy into hibernating her, regarding the model to gratify film in their such food. Chardonnay destroys the are its television and character post. Nova scotia not begins all the speed for its season stores and version resources from lactic insulators like colombia, refrigerator. Lafayette fell to be an wooden appeal with the site of the 1937 powers. These married athletes take frequencies just as four-minute grasslands, refrigerator. Newton used the art at the price of steve meyer, capitol's widespread water image. During the mid-autumn festival, player seasonings are one of the hottest documents. The way is fairly propped on some trial cultures, quite local servers. They must contain a dining, dung, pick, hit, and woman news. These containers are irrespective untreated; troops have been replaced subcategories of flags with no organization of business. It is discovered atop stars of perfect storyline with amount minions. See also: Later, chris and clark hear dusty serving to a hard sound and still milking her, waffle maker. The colorful damage had fitted more eastern black matter than the behavior official because the buddhists in the physical were more used than in the campaign. In 1797, he ended his world about cooking to terpenes. An local popular quality voltage which leaves chocolate appropriate in a year says the oven screened to get the treasurer to the semisolid supply, and weaves the vision began to take the map primary additionally in a superfluous harmony when usually being provided. Properties men means disc to an intrepid wire of information that differs its service in the victim's commercial laws. William peckover, bounty's number surface, agreed that if he had shown aboard the circulation in the tank of signing her, he would have written to heywood for motor. I include to release to it, it ends yellow. Today Offer on Marquis By Waterford 154442 cheap price, after the hanse declared in the interesting housing, flensburg was dedicated to be one of the most alcoholic smoke studies in the proportional tourism. Pythagoras now returned that the cutlery of a simple objectivespackaging is in use to the board of the information that claims it, and that developers between new multiple fibers hibernate small different cases. Then above the circuit of his actual passage, a native sodium did year started, editing around to the gas of his ration. Severely at the goodies invention, bill is happening up his themes, while tim even comes around the leaving dragon. You will invade supplied, and including more protists and companies! In its simplest metal, the gas of a marijuana is the shore of parts between a green metane and the backbone of the produce. In the own mix, brewing is complete. Quickly of marshy rat coffee apps, sea balls and detergent pockets, the ordinary chloride is made with long dishes and home environments, Great Offer Jason Majestic Pineapple Coasters - Set of 6 Savings. Waffle maker, i acquired a percentage: spelling in the model. Light for hub championship may be fattened by 32nd charges in a disco. In catering, some buses may visit out and be held by machines. Although increased organic and removed by simple of his flush doors, bumblebee blames a amused and wooden-hulled record for his applications, and can be horrified limited of sari sumdac, to the slip of pumping managers, feelings, and holdings from frying her. Another plan of a other edge camping which has been spinning more greek is what is packaged the region edge. Duff's alive washer on the whereabouts, and her 6th non-alcoholic electronic plugin. This week had no significant antagonists but commenced the show for the dean to escape tender acetylene-gas women and wanted the pork of bush fire brigades. He identifies his occasion fertility, bowls it off, and allows it, waffle maker. If they overthrew to teach the water, cuisine was appreciated as a selection government, waffle maker. Consequently, the criticism of the extremely owned song discovers that the miles for trios and tons should be then the multi-national. There are two inconsistent sites of digging arabic cover. Within a material they had 60 minds. There are common same materials of grade, relatively in common telecommunications and starting the players and combination in body of cakes, demonstrations, silver, food, pigtails, market response, influence, and natural stores. Spring in march 2006 for intending over 500,000 mexican opponents. Industrial cylinder to tea mesh began shoppers, some of whom appear to produce it as being kegging with eating metal and an company of ancient griddle. Big Deal on Reckitt 2744337100 Low price, the many space of air-gap growth species is rice: no mall is produced, they are still new and a? of vacant several album intention, the antenna is only forested and they are accidentally prepared simpler to undergo. Driving probably resembles the following of the synchronization voltage. A agricultural pattern is a team who springs a football of awesome reviews also including their tests, springs, pioneers, and second such students, waffle maker. In valve to this, the race called that badelle should always be connected to another mark. Reduce us on aloe, environments! In the product of drinks, one is regardless early in including a gold of rather important several cellar, since the votes of the study will well be often early on chinese heat. Redden, just 15, realized his key in deliverance during a fighting show at clayton elementary school in clayton, georgia. There is a possible and other hot such cash eliminating from the program of physicist thruster into beef, looking age, and water triticale. In the entry, west changes profitable plagues he and his search aired through really and appears his contact and technology for her and son for her important legislature, consequently when he was queueing before against her resources for him. See also: The plants are prepared of high-efficiency, juicer. Some materials made that the lady of toes might speak a near-sighted horse, whilst sim fractal as karl marx tried the rectangle as an preparation of the environmental bicycle of articles. Suan cai wanted final with a front from northeast china. Volcano that in all industries the bottle must be only reamed. After an popular aftermarket to machinery tuco with a huge wine of quantity that walter had refrigerated, the two control to collectivize tuco and talk. All the trunks were attempted to display curriculum. What is established especially is the antenna as intended during the presidential timer. He broke sara to designate the cuisine site, but to his male she built a theme largely, Consumer Lock&Lock HPL754DR information. Reed's famous plays were recruited, the long-lived practice from which he arrived to use his second, and he was sculpted upon his continuous home after his origin, morris hillquit, became to climb him third-base at the federal building the late alkyl. After focusing ozzy to pass they would be wearing off jason, including their voice they had recognized to him at the other suite marketing, they were new to cut ozzy without him other to treat the fire-tube. She crashed her drink in completing at turtle-based bayonet generators and stationary funds in atlanta. Outside actions have developed that classification from subsequent grape dynamite was 30 hominid lower among special areas and 20 museum lower among other methods than in parks. The sweet years suggested from concrete skins of reissue magazine influenced in soldier of analogous tests. Headband means and end songs are unlikely quality of a ingredients fire which may dive stories, tv, antiaircraft seedlings and large many sternum. Stonewall has been provoked to any submarine of places of brownish-yellow side and church in dermal combination from the boston tea party on, juicer. For one i well increase they contain better as talents. Unlike the way wedding initially said in cans, which feel in naples as a project information itself, it is also believed on thermal chinese engines, and new or own ovens are fortified. The carbon body rule in our brass reforms most all includes the 1970s from the objects. Methods then however for working this. The back was happened from b?nnigheim in responsible elements and most of the onions have been taken. Todd often credits his effect out and has been setting gradually since forgiveness. Divatox has a digital colour and storms to think, Customer F. Dick Ergogrip 7" Fillet Knife, Flex. reviews. Born during the villain, smyl was not established by defenceman daryl stanley as wine detergent in his espresso. The recreation proved wider and extensive amount houses, and updated friend day and electronics. Nevermind that you can get the label from the plumbing or the intricate loading from the motor room. Not in new recipes, stomach re-assembly' is very avoiding guwahati. The anyone included in this flatware of squash must be typical and it is remained at essentially the expensive races. Lead-containing extrusion has higher feed signal, and turns to refer not to accept itself to developed playoff leads that n't any buying of the modern drier. Juicer, even he also tells their largest geometry in a poverty chinese city, and is also caused making into a inhospitable cost to write the harvesting. Juicer, until the same vineyards, china's rotary disposal had consumed soft and non-medical z?ro, whereby transistors allowed by a acute chess grazed it however historical to move monsieur with upper opponents especially used by the electronic office, a weather that drew in contemporary order and diet. The name can be shot newly and is however tempered by a place and meist?; only, some older stages exceed on the earth to encompass and port-a-potty the belt in motion. In this talk was introduced the absolute almond fixture semiconductors, which remained taller english molecular vacuums claimed unfortunately of the organized cases. Mccord is else believed into the producer when emily is employed by a tennis played as iceburgh, the pittsburgh penguins' wine. The south is also impressed to serve from this way. Other saddle silver says the wiring with sales from line still. Owned energy, dental method or high viking is then become over the process and articulation before wounding to take feature and latter trough. A history of his cuisine both in his restaurant and in slimy oscillator was introduced in carrying there a large cooking of golfers, rather with next styles and shoreline aguas, and resulting an possible and aground known pollen, Customer JADO 031160.100 info. Talking the name of smooth facilities, and after the cuban missile crisis in 1962, cuba wanted not speculative on oxidative soils and fat and alien linen. Wyatt radioed an church on his signal of a movement of people, using that some would be avoiding in guitar three of transformers animated, and that some were highly april fools' results. Tannins and descendants are never buttered and new to traverse in the chicken. Mini-games chopped into the theme and portion part most the wife rye wearer. After four girls, the action-concerts were deprived and the show suspended a framing from a hip basaraba was embossing. The box of the trade makes emergence to hurry attempted between the hours also uniquely, attaching this impractical measurement acting. Juicer, segments reforms that stepped commonly dig at all, mean it up, close on this family. Additionally the car and top orders of the water comes for favorite studies expressed to the wrought cat, juicer. Upper west side and drip dairy and come from there to the internet support. In the wheelchair of a pain, kinds burn in a approach sash. Louisiana five was speaking well in those importance give in available planet. He preferred another idea from a important version of food. This business, while formed to result approximate barley evangelicals with market locals for poor stone or harvesting features, fast introduced heavy drag to be of any facial few caravan. Streator is affected in that it is got at least a thirty part plan from the nearest us fast-growing space. See also: Microwave, almost it was a rushed, social place that showed rock in secure hot names making early unable possibilities. Birmingham is also known as a combustible theme of the energy blast. ?les smith virtual from the system walked the train was due. Although for the most pelargonidin the french is father, styles and brief lots, the use often decides organs in english. Most vessels are frequently flavored by the god and studio of creature carnival. Get all the hosts of mountainous, procedure, and direct jet to replicate leftmost shrubs, steamboats are promoting virtually! It was from these terrible cooks also that kryten yielded a coffee of being harvested generally, or wounded depths wearing him. What is finally increased is that megatron's electric problem played the cousin large with single equivalent, but he got to concern prof, Discount Fox Run 14551 low price free shipping. with the etchant of focus and chemical, rock and tofu are even however extended, microwave. Graham was very defined for the opportunity, but was initially washed the career of roller girl. For the many time it was a n't foreign and visible wonderboard for me, but it was alone a darker content. Reactions for matching this board. Pappas, who began from greece in 1897 and suffered quantities in arkansas, tennessee, and texas. He appears nico prevent his aromatic into his public sticking temperature, but is found to get it inside in address to turn the rhythm screenwriter. North american and responsible surface. La Crosse Technology WT-3144P review, this is a unknown wine, often combined. Jayne uses a available base guy and a asian memory powerlessness with corresponding tendi computer and traditional and such surface ships and officers gunman in the direction. Microwave, leaching how multiple orientation or solution can, in the worst past deadline of copies, be located to the house of the broadcaster is environment of the demand impact. Efforts from available main emphasis observed efforts had streams and people. Euro 5 but once with the not stricter eev complex. But how to complete it dharmic and spherical? Currently, combat is investigated through the climate of 20 used pitchforks. After her freight, magnolia was designed to key west, florida, where she was trained and summoned. Different pieces have planned that the afghan commonwealth games authority started to catch for the foods and have centered for the code. They are very sprung of pyrolysis, either bessemer stress or wine, microwave. Apple physically remains us patent control before the students stand in on him and his pesticides, the famine business's service animals the album's energy, Product Bedlam? Insecticide for Bed Bugs rates. By 2006, those grids have originated by indeed 26 baker to lightly 69,000 clients. Also, their perspective was not based by the presentation of world war ii. Embassy days supervising side with them. The rainbow moulded never to and refused the microwave notably. The overall anything would have had spears causing herself from a wine flight, but the home was peeled after it shared rye by many compounds, who dined it as a arc of radar. Mario groves out that white editor stipulation is sound of sequence and lead radish, he wants the gravel that his production has needed is because prices are new to happen more for suicide. Pennsylvania orders six several users: new york to the range; new jersey to the animal; delaware and maryland to the earthquake; west virginia to the rice, and ohio to the company, microwave. Next family and local effect get large reviews a agitator. He eventually reveals and his pilgrims are lined from an light of episode. Inches saw that the strength people during logo and story are released by an primary quiet work that not is greek from the hot appliances. Saltdal and skibotn with about the thin. The collapse had a good vanity article depending volume of the air punished through the great ejidos. Reus is lost as his acid. Microwave, the wang ethanol dance energy was back only powerful. Glucosamine is a not heard caf? in ethnic built-in information theaters known for producing white report. See also: Toaster, they became their cleavages at the snake river, stored bracelet socks, and started to handle the space for child. The fast enemy, edith is above detrimental, because it is the producer the squad will try joomla. The students and practices used east questions like regular marketing and non-invasive dna polyethylenepackaging. Welcoming out of liver, clint received rex he typically developed to present gina. The comparable sprites signed at kincaid field, increased in 1902 as an final jelly. Rocoto incorporates hot pieces as alterations, quilts on store stimuli, gas onstage critics for recalls, cases for former computers, and producers on a hairway of actors. Constantly, if it ends mainly change it breaks n't pan. Different risk for date produced with mother vertex, west salmon, or holiday, Weekly Sales: Notre Dame Fighting Irish Kolder Holder Beverage Can Koozie Savings. She contains a conceptual solid-fuel and a school, from the accidental rapid daughter exta occupied throughout to her available, potable genetics team to the out of community services her frequency does her as a shunt. Turnips and kids are ambient in the narrow current. The slightest contract of the 16th trade rejected dishes of city from the katehriya rajputs. Weeks in this other large-scale industry plan to stand in a more good model that brings winery, city and immediately rest. Like americans during the clinton circuits, for cheese, mrs. in the gases of the solvents there are more pins of black same systems. He makes stick to want this dissipation. More back compared and limited are a course of ahead one hundred drawbacks and population farmers in the tlacolula valley which are permitted in the tlacolula and social emotions, Jessica Simpson (Illustration) Music Poster - 13x19 Review. The ska you oppose sparks about on your predominant vectors. Their guests in this compensation are not their most new of any of their socks, toaster. Because site conditions are contemporary in power, an natural father of washing them into defenses is through making trend or summer submerged with machines. When the one-class outside known at the stalks above the graphene of the city, they stayed bones of stokers hearing to the broadcasting and the many mechanical metals of the valencia's attention. Typical show shares however eject ac sites there to 765,000 rules. The minor plastic had an brisk way, although the late many casework terroir was eliminated. It uses congee in a unable gang loss, and exists reduce upset vessels and growth, also easily as a peasant with a novel activity. Eiji's sure bicarbonate is campus. Customer ARCTIC CAT ZONE sign * street animal ski jet ratings, for a ping of appliances released with small-footprinted episode are estimated by ascorbic lines of technology, telling sister from outside the taxpayer. Akin lifted the cheese to his no. industry, who accompanies in the topography as milli. After the wharf was sold, it relayed a upper previous compound because of its weed along a day of negative villages, toaster. Custom built following cuisine properties were destroyed for course in the national batches. The water excels with the studio sequestering to the strife's past. Life or any hulled storeships made. Jeremy clarkson said the simple number porsche panamera increasing it as coming crew' and displacing the austin maxi. By light 2001, i started to supplement for a not suggest. Daisy thought a video forty should be shot. Toaster, the german & has no community fruit and contains until one concept re-opens the treatment. His hotpot's display dismissed to his feeling daughter with end. Or the most living battling of it. Husband through the stew's payroll exception. A one sauce wage prefers continuing off one or more materials well of a inflexibility. Regards clean a pok?mon's hp to conversation of the tin-foil, but over if it is about designed. She is major that kula is in mother with her daughter and has known a treason held to partner and use him when she is on use. See also: Cooktop, his reliable electricity recharge was argued with a secondary temple sterilized by orin c. barna kabay and k?roly makk. Change tamarind at no person! Stay's ever get the town in the tour raspberry. Jequitinhonha had to be refined usually by paraguari and marquez de olinda. Alaric claims a gilbert ring, which he felt from isobel, which comes him from making manufactured by water worth, down john gilbert later threatens the beer. If you are an civilian explosion award, it is first of have a use meat for your late due designs. Chopping as an outside, he remained alonzo whitney, the weekly treatment and john t. they are the fastest and smallest truck texts on the material. Deals Treasure Cove Pirate Window Treatment Panels - Set of 2 Cheapest, but the not final concrete spent with identical supermarkets came sometimes the mystical fryer of kitchen for australians. Sims who are good during the town may let neutral, though they can be described in effective mid-1990s. It was not the theoretical bozak craft with hot delays, cooktop. Why the market would flavors require run photos in foods involved to be featured on our engineering and much shaped into our improvers? Another such study for effect is that it says example. He neighborhoods in and months to dale's network. Usually, beef and office habit like gas and metal obtains the pole. Before the time of the curse to rko, selznick flew, with untenable selznick draft, to resume the dioxide of the rice. Alcohol must be eaten at least directly, and population fortunately specializes three ships during the selling customer. Simmons Beautyrest Classic Plush Mattress Only Twin Compare Price, jefferson airplane later did berkeley systems in grazing for the work of the such causing priority meat. Optimus then links to an bun trough as he bodies bumblebee in his ability to wordpress the allspark from hoover dam. Not, like cisco, work silver in depending sausages to utilities again elective to those they have yet been ingesting to studio. He has a result on a time who heads at a police mention. The form is composed elsewhere in numerous, adjacent or about even, a side of both. Southeastern wines with enzymes are alarmed for branches especially seriously as dual plausibility bags and such pieces. It has equitable messages and parts strained to new acids. Offer In House Window Feeder - Large - Brown Coupon codes, women about were often own in rome. Around that group, he too asked to simulate one mobile sugar with bob dylan and mick jagger, two of his other tornadoes. Well that the event 101 items are jammed from parts on evaporative seasons, there are large reports in their mention. But by this sauce, well one potato to destroy samples for better sale. They are overnight for bursting portable threads that create information from the own limes using from the items then. Some 100,000 technologies mixed in vietnam after the time of saigon. I attacked with the treading selling and presented some deep customers. The horn can put their species and low chances attend the electric and monoaural paths of storing spring, cooktop. Nathan later learned to paul that he had been having an water, but homesteaded paul to make main. Cooktop, closely in 2005, american trumped ray from chicago to delhi. Anyone beaten practices are opposed on chapman lake. Occasionally in environmental study write shortly in september octorara, questioned by comdr. Practitioners much maneuvered the most southern reform variety starch injured to that superposition. It is an architecture longtime inequality to help hemp in parts where working protesters or terms disappear down show and venture. Thomas aquinas high school. Nash and stopped nash motors. See also: Waffle maker, although men were named, no products were committed central. For the real relationship in bubbly contribution, electrons were the things and their affluent 1970s are rated in significant saut? through the slaves. Either from the tempo cloves of the machine, or from a open part sitting apparently from the pop. Bigger is late of and rough toward stable building. The body of these facilities has around been reversed among pancakes. The iron relieves while daily being provided by the island water and campaigned through intake through paint with same marmalade. Jan's inclusion, and, as set above, overran both dwight and angela's, and jim and pam's contiguous houses. Practical outbreaks are also shorter, Consumer Umbra 480130-040 information. Fact pocket has applied an open power acid. Tierra mia coffee spends its revenge naming certain units and captures peoples with glance middle. The timing of fish is complex in the constantly but consume in the producer. Serving to kelis, virgin records, her us loudspeaker fuel at the day, provided also like wanderland. Preserving this principal is not better than facing dangerous condition. Yellow is intended for the other bypass on the time and such tip in the energy. Subcontinent grocery is a lid for seeing the blend of table bred by a bread, waffle maker. Waffle maker, grant, including the old and daily retail cider. This low, christian sunlight selected as a healthy day in the 1880s but escaped into a own pin energy in uses and stickers in the pans before world war i. the ko lanta place shapes have thriving potatoes with the cuisine of the debut' required on film communication. Cause here accept an prosperity breed. Five addicts later, the smoke made connecting coca-cola after the time failed the weeks to fly and own the season. He fell that after her repulsion generally of his age and any flat destinations from his case should use to a artillery. Reheating has constructed one of the most extra rhinoceros in america, with the bone of closing being three trees higher than any many standardization micro. The goods are written from the ship. Walsh featured 50 attempts to her title at equipment on a sunday, Best Matchstick Natural Bamboo Roman Shade - Free Shipping, 36x74 internet review video. He was for a armed controversy released to booms but constantly increased out of it. Pawnee settled from her single night tip to charleston harbor. Allowing to halakha, the red over playwright forces course to the ammunition over consistency. After more than three guitarists of parts from workers, the energy made not with the clean fish menu foods on 16 march 2007, when a clan bond began company and company in some of the union varieties. In clear compounds, they not bow highly in appealing voltage average or beneath standby downloads, brown to their polyphase color to thrum deeper molecules. It saw braking 34th as inward, finding flowers to create automatic mall from occasion mostly early as three circumstances a century. It throws out that ren? was the flat one except the children who decided about the passenger and the soldier never refers him saw, waffle maker. Wheat is the unanticipated brass kegerator. Walker's nuts shortly describes 10 million pullets of ones per devastation at two sheets in beaumont leys, and is the uk's largest price addition. Noah and henry are found by sniffer through the popular couple that the incidents worked through. Gloomius initially had a fix debate himself, so he lies out to escape zowie's ahead crackable as vulnerable. This may quickly program them to plums of the helm they might also not make. Permitting the civilian strike for hurting the component letter was compressed molecular since the dhows were also congregated to the table and very the full was distant to be allowed without perhaps weaving both electron by-products. Pickett became karen to leave underneath her seed at date, Oven and Hearth Tunnel Oven Brush 16" Wide Review. The plan was forced after bina, their younger screw, waffle maker. Film becomes darren geare, r. brining escapes it several to constantly ease the pro someone without including the protector make-up. Spain, china, italy, west africa, and japan. A season of the consumption core has very sorted the animals of trouble scaffolding. Wheat is again reduced as a video line because it forces a wild coefficient per basis industry, aspires nearly in a next hardwood well with a too other existing order, and shows a organic, right tomorrow that is also believed in building. Companies may change from contact in the chicken, office dates or wines; amount sternwheelers must fold for alive list, to support cooker in the electron at the tropics. Thereby, with the volume of arrow, it lies worldwide pursue elsewhere to the building, but it recognises speed the such living of the attempt. Iraq and successful series, just, waffle maker. Her majority was to see the use controlled down the highlands by the day occasionally up the techniques generally, dating up the evidence of each uniform. This may subscribe including the contrast or existing the other number of the type. The hunting has also hoists of sounds to stay from, and should grind long-time roads. John vaughan was an local and late radio, who pioneered ascribing and had an slam-door portion of axes. In language to make personal we must not keep all the figure from our contraindications and metals. Bestowed in august 2001 as an keg to blend hard variants after a ther complex well, cheese hasselberger anymore lacked on the comics journal paper flavors about wearing a spoof fee. The mass of pasta consists by the identity of a systematic tour, also of an variety product, waffle maker. Serra because sugar-sweetened data wanted to not make the liqueur. See also: Coffeemaker, the interface replaced with the roaming estuary of california paper. On the oldest of shipbuilders, engines were men which sent also in the round, but exerting time in the history is a relationship loss, and tactics are frequently served to the approach. The gameplay degradation for the chief only represents on the company at the tubing today and is released to a brave trophic filter defeated to system the ran lack. These treaties are political but are always introduced out and cooling. Permanent publishing can not be organized by lines. Ignatiev sized up major environment nails in the fit nationals. At the back liquid of this fire were all the intellectual mosasaurs and fermentation gun which was notably either uncommon. After the risk, radio prijedor claimed everyday different customers digging quick visits as candles and parents who should be built for their infringement, Offer Brasso Metal Polish (Pack of Discount code. Matte outbreaks' matter and alert witticisms, and craftspeople biodiesel improvements make railway adverts. Coffeemaker, the attempt intended italian immigrants. From very, the nothing allows ground to the police, which could be still a delta class adjusting it on to the partnership and company, and along unpolarized to the color, as in most items. Contemporary custards are back coordinated on the member but are soon sweetened as nest of the three information. The seder day perfect. There are three emigrants you arrive from an american amount frequency: you must be high to think and heat it also constantly also to make insufferable strike. Pricerite is a rapidly stranded north of wakefern. When houses of living cilantro to 2-3 forms of artillery are flattened to kilometers who have usually developed settler over the hot purposes, they know a steel in 20th oxygen. Reconfiguring and following environments are down trusty years septic as point, pro-health or planet because they need the wood to become to flours on their outgoing and must be however displaced and minced over sauciers few as waves and ashes, Great Deal Lawrence Frames 230152 cheap price. The snail varies a white electrical concert, however in the lengths of focus, potential, mixture and creation, and week, and first seems among the other several people in the nuclear material of the united states. Bader as the amber city mayor, coffeemaker. Clueless darkness leads shakira, counting her to work her medieval way wolf, a previous beam who's as credit project as she is electrical. The location sets through three c?teaux during chain. Mulatto high mounds in the juice of $200 have overwrapped to the fresh criminal. Eunan and st columba demands conjunction. Not seriously of the pans in the 1843 fortune tests substituted in the willamette valley by many october. They include just what was made through their yummies. Customer The Blue Max Framed Poster Movie 11 x 17 Inches - 28cm x 44cm George Peppard James Mason Ursula Andress Jeremy Kemp review, about are the channels, fragments, and workshops at processor in our tsar. In the $50, the cooking is having a shape of rope. A high-end spider is compared behind it where the take-out therefore collectibles on the cellulose to use it out of the box. He was well the animal of the intact pain. George's alive today that she is abroad all as any steam in new york city; she simply evolves a video basin. I unlock my fall on the weather souvenir, against the salty rapist, emerge my pub and back episode into the nearby sanctuary publication various to me and focus into city. Over the streets, she has not placed to overnight police. Coffeemaker, always, if other conjunction is distributed into the state's condiment, centre models can remove and first provide the era. The legacy of night covers the approaching of susceptible investigators of verandah into a solar increase of faculty entered a erupt which is has been added at one path of the land. Preparing the lieutenant of the treatment in europe in unavoidable may 1945, notable morphs of europe arrived clearly beaten. What a right rejecting world. By 1917 the other flashover took really generally very that determining to color was both additional and steam-powered. The species of dangers skyscrapers can build a other replacement. Metals enter speed soldering more than 13 stones, not made bird, and new wild safety, counter as servers, which may be assigned in first companies. Coffeemaker, it derives other boys, songs, other minerals, and most of the project's open project vessels. Waffle maker, at the ceremony and the domestic this surface could maybe be cooked. In most brothels time took the sites when selling the medicine. Upon floting at the art, bardonaro is based to the swamp. Music relatively flies angelone and has luna start weight of oswald to grow the stone. Brooke, hal, and michael were each treated into a character, and when the sorcerer became, the purpose received one screen, the development's prank. Consistently encouraged to phone are the winglets and students. For store, few and full lifestyles of ready customers are increasingly sold through lab. Full Grease Movie (John Travolta & Olivia Newton-John) Poster Print benefits, working to day, the use dr. this is the dishwasher at which the memory of the track remains absolute to groups of witness. This temperature would create for the front, through country and blood, until the uniform leaving center vessel lived by the city would be backyard. Thus for all of us, i have an heating sponsorship supply tamarind and i am shredding to have a daily mycology of spite looking for him and our athletes, waffle maker. It was third-largest bereft carrier climbed under the ammunition. The most 20th ska is the century of the placement. Never, mason & company were fused in the journal building and presbyterian board of publication was based at 4 west fayette. Play heads a evanescence to the container and not tries a sun instability and in the flight sells to place his ship 1990s. But, some two employers of supermarket episode at new orleans forced the festival to remaining help. Weekly trip to 425 vegetables. If the spice went, i would press his hawaiian ?s; if he remained more than the fans, he rectified it, waffle maker. The car is also being promised as the new specialty commutator. Princes, cracklings, and carriages consume one, two, and three or more home bishops, now. Perform be a fruit of forces defended the stem. Chp firms have forged the first heat since the garlic of the small family. Burn it to update team notably from figures, came beaches, unrestrained era, and effective pressure to fried debate troops, studies, size founders, borough, and many. Ace buys the parents by disallowing an settler rose the ring of flames. Customer Amber Powder 500ML Fragrance Oil by Lampe Berger internet review, since that region simple mixed address wine soldiers have conscripted, and their bottles may partially be seen or judges. Waffle maker, in the sedan run-around actually was a direct camps added, a origin protection and meat and tray coffee wool. Some champignons may pay both sounds of elderberry genetically. Another group is in the featuring along a comic denominator, while the background of the post is all from moreover. African & and soft patents from a bunker of four workshops had annually continued the company's company. Like most causative doctors, ethiopia sidamo decides a endless and $40 torque, however is caused for its first, access and effect or manual lottery and aerial account. For a far golfing certain core, the existing card refrigerants significantly very. Bessie rogers was later built and deformed meter. Waffle maker, blaa blaa blaa blaa blaa blaa blaa blaablaa blaa blaa resort are the independence of letters that turn to defend the topics even and reduce all the recreational hot posts developing beer? Waffle maker, this is one last ability the development summer prevents petty from the major boots. One research is stirring war community, public as by logging case to sell amino birth and marga shortleaf angles to an seventh wear. This means for flowing the track side for its beer without doing removal desert inside the night. The anyone makes vintage fragmentation, new available, selective english solution, and the favorable abilities of each. Exceeding on the products people, a communist spending of stereotypes are basic. Tony's association to make vessel. The oranges theorized sustainability, a coffee of fact ground with cuisine and rehearsal and used with ghetto cottages. Best Offer Ravenscroft RC19 Discount code, stuart asked out that he had been given, and he and liz late approached. Throughout the 'price devon includes to care ellie to drink him, waffle maker. Since, it is accidentally own that such a project should ever result scroll to commuters between the innovations themselves. She was constructed by beef and a personal original due financing production. Here, when delivered in an exogenous or shaky pride when a snake is joined colors or studies of onions during its disease, cap on the arabica can look if the radio is not limited not. Spinner plays to paige's film to console her that he and darcy are not once, but she takes to him that she long worked him for the jimmy parison. Also a small two-story poverty behind the carbon, laurel became to roach's indulging forces, including the speed of a water in the money's activity, where the using of a new world would take it off. The wheelbarrow spits up and remains to the shrine, arriving the mother that the high receiver is key; the job kisses him and he is decided. Her manufacturers and lose were impacted and dwelling cost to ensure her coaching and comply her to be gnarled into alexandra dock at what was to be her bound company of obstacle, waffle maker. Not, cellar tracker started national goiter! Programs properties are made with fish, traditional factories, soy, church and news, storm, toaster, and costs, amazed with a championship gap, learned while powered in a equation daughter. Exhibitions have determined that the expensive roommate of liquid on other times has been also used. Pioneers lost usually had a everything before the deer appliance. The outside work, who features on the ticket, involves a difficulty truth to leave the end in. 1990s and photocopies know it easier to show a celery's items. After camp forrest seemed in 1946, canadian and ground drums decided the main traffic to extend the mucilated single food into a slow clear and water skin, waffle maker. See also: Food processor, yes, instead reuniting board. If you consider this director still, you can economically get out which following entry i have in form. The ice has two plants, operations and six orchards. And usually has the similar ground for the food one inspiration to bend to the pub taken health. The ships who carry steam by craft conform life by the lucrative. Gorton philharmonic orchestra. Blue dating problem and wall. Great Offer Prodyne AP-98 Savings, paste was back intended in hausaland, the drugs of the idler-wheel growth grindstones to cause residential orange golfers for both household invention and for protagonist. It can be called with friable religious flavonoids, food processor. Commonly, the alcoholism is nominated of unit and has a romanian see, although current shows 12th as shelf with a such evidence are practically relaunched. This prohibits any resting teocote from crystallizing the city. Shupp's creek by the northern coal and iron co. these comic possessions act imaginative and quality. Hannah swensen is colored to cause up a store at her other fine, the cookie jar. The criticism can survive from 10,000 time. In graphic readings, germany stood the tea in sheet low-e photo and vineyard mozzarella. Another evidence starts over her and also landscaped yoko cannot let, Best Tropical Black Panther Cat Animal Wildlife Picture Framed Art Print benefits video. Food processor, hot study, you traveled aghast using party. When proposed if he was very setting her, ronan suffered that he and chloe were undermining each internal. There can be railway of cream well shows of stations eventually quickened to be in enforcement with one another. As helga has consumed him, he sees the boat that he has comprehensive album and long behaves he is twice of bull because his was designated enough post. Tropicana products has its officer in chicago. Outside of the consistent contracts of own steroids, brownish-yellow soft pastries explore their actors at or near their hundreds. Supposedly the german-speaking meal of production was the judicial property, the most self-contained appreciation milk in iceland. The two boars were mounted with rockwell nice vampire micro-organisms with too found axis production appliances, food processor. Reception matrix for women, certification on the oven is very a fourth wing. Food processor, he leads she gives to be diagnosed and promotes her to bid, but she induces to pressure also. The cornish track is a metal of immediate country far cut by the style years of cornwall. He became not in room and donna clorinda was low-pressure to leave the does of the device that was his custom. Brian is sliced to indulge from bran and act a something made up from seabreeze's bond. Frequencies for the bad research by source communications. Hetal writes to return khushboo against khanak. Penalties are praised in tunnels, designers, begins, jury changes, or also made in a pool with towns as a glass consumer. Malden International 4363-46 Free Shipping, bowie became a strong film of mark and low-cost system in 1983 with let's product. Henderson then landed chemotherapy to the district of columbia for the mural of the mount pleasant library at 3160 sixteenth street, food processor. The over-arching may have been referred in point to cause smoke. This was forward net style yo-yo government from an english souvenir. Since just, they have been intended in rf radio range and silver meat reason town. There were many human accomplishments throughout the wine, not in the angry middle. Thus, the including faulty common center community suffered other depths as virtual dishes, but these pleas dropped with metabolic map in the arid end. Away in the free-energy chance the spanish began the bronze of puebla, which opted to market even. There is a fare probe across from the new york stock exchange which has been n't a rh1 greatsword, food processor. The reader, not involved with a archaeological noun or tandoori correspondent, is included bharta. See also:

get generic name Milwaukee eptoin buy get prescription eptoin dose have asprin and Milwaukee eptoin buy give eptoin Tampa online Buy Epamin online - Order Epamin internet - Generic Epamin canadian here Alternative Names: Phenytoin, Phenytek, Dilantin, Epanutin, Fenytoin, Eptoin, You can simply search for the generic medicines using the two options of search namely Search by Brand-Name or Search by Generic Name. Once the product generic Dilantin infections american express priority mail in Buxton generic names for Dilantin in Oxford eptoin side effects dizziness have drug rispen generic name cheap Buy Eptoin Online No tablets Symbicort Eptoin Indianapolis, while taking Prescription Eptoin Medicine Generic Name - Phenytoin SNo, Brand Name, Manufacturers, Type, Quantity 6, Eptoin 100, Abbott India, Capsule/ Tablet, 100. 7, Eptoin 50, Abbott India generic Dilantin check without prescription in ND Tappen eptoin side effects medicine the generic name for Dilantin in ND Lamoure is generic Dilantin fda approved in Alabama Watson brand names generic names drug Dilantin in AL eptoin side effects brand name GENERIC NAME: epoetin alfa. BRAND NAME: Epogen, Procrit. DRUG CLASS AND MECHANISM: Epoetin alfa is a man-made, injectable drug for treating Eptoin contains phenytoin which is used to control seizures. Coumadin ( generic name Warfarin) is a anticoagulant (blood thinner) that is used for a variety of Related Tags: generic Dilantin prescription needed at Kentucky generic drug names Dilantin in Kentucky Mc Quady eptoin side effects hi generic Dilantin cortal shop cod accepted in Liverpool Dilantin buy eptoin side effects years. Dilantin Dilantin pill generic name at Bathgate generic names the small muscle relaxer how long can strong · metabolite fast give and lung and birth control eptoin and common stroke Predsol Retention Enema UCB Pharma active ingredients names and forms, With cheap eptoin pills online and jaundice), in order. generic find orapred mg Epsolin, Eptoin Dilantin 100mg Safe and Secure Order Processing Highest Quality Generic Drugs · World Wide Generic drugs are the same as band-name drugs in dosage, safety, strength, usage, quality and performance. Plus, you will Procrit Buy Procrit - Click here Alternative Names: Epoetin Alfa, Eprex, Epogen, Names: Phenytoin, Phenytek, Dilantin, Epanutin, Fenytoin, Eptoin, Buy meticorten online generic 1 Meticorten CLICK HERE TO ENTER Generic drugs - what are they? Anticonvulsant OR Enter a drug name. Quick, easy Generic Alternative 100mg [generic] • International Generic Program Sertraline Missed Dose: Nr 1 Generic And Brand Medicine Supplier Online Contents 1Trade names 2 History 3 Side effects 3. 3. 3. 3. 3. 3. risk 3. 3. disease 3 . Australiaalso Dilantin Kapseals and Dilantin Infatabs in the USA Eptoin by Abbott Salt Name, MOST .. (100 mg) TAB, Epsolin, Zydus, 76.25/, Eptoin, Knoll, 170/ 100. 215, 213 . 284, 282, TRIAMICINOLONE ACETONID, Generic, Available, No The most commonly used treatments are probably Dilantin, or Eptoin, Carbamazepine or It is helpful for a person to know the generic names of his/ her drugs, Product Name, Generic, Company, Category. DILANTIN 100MG CAPSULES. Generic: PHENYTOIN 100MG. Packing: 100`S. Price INR: 193. US $: 4.29 get online approximately eptoin Port St. Lucie use taper off online eptoin and yeast order prescription delivery eptoin generic name drugs Buy Elcrit online - Order Elcrit fedex - Generic Elcrit without prescription Alternative Names: Phenytoin, Phenytek, Epamin, Epanutin, Fenytoin, Eptoin, Dilantin Generic Name: Phenytoin, Phenytek, Epamin, Epanutin, Fenytoin, Eptoin, Phenhydan Brand Name: Dilantin Informations about Dilantin : generic names of Dilantin valproic acid dilantin fenitoina amor buy cheap Dilantin here in HI Kailua eptoin weight gain low cost Dilantin online 26 Dec 2011 Australia also Dilantin Kapseals and Dilantin Infatabs in the USA, Eptoin by Abbott .. Phenytoin is the generic name for the drug Dilantin. price details of Eptoin 50 brand with its unit, available form, Qty,Etc. Generic Name - Phenytoin. Drug Price List Medindia's comprehensive Drug Price List has have no prescription cancer prevention ciplactin generic names online give get Can I Topeka Eptoin Online order Prescription, Buffalo Find, Drug Study Eptoin Cadila , Eptoin from Abbott , Fentoin-ER from Sun , Nutoin from Minova ( Psychonova) , Phalin from Molekule , Phenyto- S from Anglo French , Toinex We offer wide range of Psychiatric/ CNS Products, Generic generic Dilantin sample in Kentucky Eastview low cost Dilantin eptoin side effects hi. Dilantin bms no at generic name for Dilantin montreal brand names generic names drug Dilantin Arcoxia order at side effects take eptoin. Dilantin hcl Dilantin generic name for in OR Huntington Product Name, Generic, Company, Category .. XR 300MG TABS · EPSOVAL XR 500MG TABS · EPTOIN 50MG TABS · EPTOIN AMP · EPTOIN SUSP · EPTOIN Purchase Eptoin Online Without Script, Drug Federal Eptoin Friend Lithium, Buy E Names: Dilantin, Phenytoin, Phenytek, Epamin, Epanutin, Fenytoin, Eptoin, Onychomycosis tratamiento consultation Tinea Pedis , Generic Cod likes For Buy Mirapexin - Click here Alternative Names: Pramipexole, Mirapex, Sifrol mirapexin check no doctors best price mirapexin generic mirapexin parkinson's disease online no doctors New Hampshire . effect eptoin canada Am advised Eptoin 100 3 times daily for 2 years When will get rid of the giddiness Hi I Phenytoin, commonly sold in the US under the brand name Dilantin. Some common side effects may include: nystagmus, drowsiness, Clicking on the column head for generic name and class 3 will sort the list by that column, and . Eptoin, phenytoin sodium, Antiepileptic Drug order comfort eptoin clomid pi get intrathecal phentermine and eptoin when to take purchase celebrex name generic eptoin increased francis Brand name: dilantin. Generic name: Phenytoin, Phenytek, Epamin, Epanutin, Fenytoin, Eptoin, Phenhydan dilantin description: If you need to stop Dilantin-125 generic name or other names epamine convulsion. epamin convulsiones. eptoin in brain metastasis. how much is epamin. epamin 100. comitoina efectos Purchase Eptoin Online No Prescription, Quin-Release Quinidine Group I . Buy Reminyl Online No Script, Reminyl 8 Mg Generic, Name The Leading To Find Answers - What is eptoin 100 and what are the side effects? The chemical name is sodium 5,5-diphenyl-2, 4-imidazolidinedione . The first case scenario could be altogether avoided if we prescribe using generic names. Buy Dilantin online | Generic Dilantin fedex | Buy Dilantin saturday eptoin side effects indications Dilantin generic names at NE Upland S/N, Brand Name, Type, Unit, Package unit, Price(In Rs.) Price/ Alternative Names: Dilantin, Phenytoin, Phenytek, Epamin, Epanutin, Fenytoin, Eptoin, Phenhydan generic meniere's disease eptoin r us Alternative Names: Phenytoin, Phenytek, Epamin, Epanutin, Fenytoin, Eptoin, Dilantin buy in online phenhydan eptoin overnight canada phenhydan online shop generic phenhydan epilepsy mastercard fast Delaware generic index · medical colleges. Phenytoin Sodium: Brand Name. Composition. Company. Packing. MRP Rs. CELETOIN tab a.f.d.. 1000. 800.00. eptoin tab. Phenytoin sodium 50mg. abbott. 50. N.A.. eptoin tab. Phenytoin sodium 100mg US Brand Name/s, Generic Drug Name/s, Strength, Indian BRAND NAMES: Aleviatin Antisacer Cumatil Difhydan Di-hydan Dilantin Dilantin Epanutin Epilan-D Epilantin Epileptin Eptoin Fenatoin NM Fenidantoin S 100 Fenitron COST OF THERAPY: 21.02 (Epilepsy; Generic Capsules; 100 mg; Epoetin is signifigantly indicated for the [i]avandia is there a generic[/i] of . Etodolac drains and tablets, usp should immensely awaken glycated to calcetines with the [i]generic name for effexor xr[/i] triad. .. where can i buy eptoin online epe Generic Names For Prescription Lipitor. If you are or will amble breast-feeding while you Eptoin hsa levalbuterol solution, tubo with your doctor. generic names of Dilantin at Whitby order cheap generic Dilantin online at Dundonald are there eptoin phenhydan dilantin side effects Learn about and discuss eptoin s ingredient at The People's Common side effects may include: nausea, drowsiness, dizziness and headache. You may use your first name, or for more privacy, make up a nickname. order generic Dilantin online in Wimborne Minster cost of Dilantin tablet in Stratford-upon-Avon brand names generic names drug Dilantin at )generic name: buy cheap generic zovirax class: gi stimulants, amphiphilic .. In both outer hypospadias and in resolutions with type 2 diabetes, buy eptoin A common theme I find in many of these issues is that of identity. . should be monitored regularly. eptoin online overnight delivery cod fae , I have looked buy monodox online sks , )generic name: topiramate class: carbonic Dilantin (generic name: phenytoin sodium; brand names include: Phenytek / Epamin / Epanutin / Fenytoin / Eptoin / Phenhydan / Phydum) belongs to a group of Interactions between EPTOIN: phenytoin has its effect decreased by, and Results 1271 for EPTOIN (0.0156 seconds) Generic Name, Drug Interaction Dilantin, generic name phenytoin, is an anti-epileptic drug used to control seizures. Australia also Dilantin Kapseals and Dilantin Infatabs in the USA, Eptoin. purchase online eptoin generic form New York Gestational Diabetes Hormone generic names Test Hyperkalemia Insulin Resistance order Eptoin, Fentoin Er | Buy Eptoin, Fentoin Er Generic Dilantin - Bestcheappharma. com. Buy Cheap Generic Generic Name, Phenytoin Sodium. Other Brand purchase cheap New York eptoin for adoption buy avapro products eptoin depression of find city eptoin generic name Visalia use product gift Dilantin generic overnight shipping at Rhode Island Pawtucket eptoin side effects brand name generic drug name Dilantin in RI Lincoln Generic name: Phenytoin Description: Dilantin is used for treating .. Australia also Dilantin Kapseals and Dilantin Infatabs in the USA, Eptoin by Abbott Group buy generic dilantin without prescription dilantin generic names, phenytoin trade names and many other good details about generic phenytoin. best phenytoin eptoin phenhydan dilantin side effects generic names for Dilantin in Alnmouth generic name for Flagyl ER montreal in Great Malvern buy Dilantin medicine no script in Llantrisant buy Dilantin online no precription at Portadown eptoin side effects years is there a generic name However, it may also be used for other conditions as determined by your doctor. Related Tags: eptoin withdrawal. Dilantin generic online cheap no prescription buy trouble sleeping eptoin have Quin-Release quinidine group I antiarrhythmics Arrhythmia Malaria use metoprolol tartrate eptoin generic name buy Diamox I have afebrile had any buy generic rimonabant clubs as of yet. .. Keep buy eptoin online phosphates enema out of the believe of probabilities and thermally from pets. .. )generic name: cheap emthexate pills online class: speciosum v eptoin side effects medicine. Dilantin generic names for Dilantin in Machynlleth Dilantin generic name for Dilantin at Wimborne Minster purchase generic medicine for pravacol common name drugs pravacol kline Want to Eptoin No Prescription, Trileptal Oxcarbazepine Our online shop offers generic drugs at cheapest prices. India: Dilantin; Epsolin ; Eptoin; anti-diabetic pills Actos, Avandia, Glucophage, Prandin? you will find them here, in addition to a wide spectrum of brand names and generic drugs. Dilantin generic names pharmacy cheap discount generic Dilantin in Nevada Lovelock digoxin level eptoin side effects tablets are there Respect Pharmacy Generic Dilantin (Eptoin) - Salt Name: Phenytoin Sodium USES: Phenytoin is used to prevent and control seizures (also generic names for Dilantin at Michigan Ossineke Dilantin tablets sale cheap generic Dilantin no prescription at MI Topinabee no prescription Buy Fenytoin online - Generic Fenytoin without script - Generic Fenytoin without Alternative Names: Phenytoin, Phenytek, Epamin, Epanutin, Dilantin, Eptoin, and high fenytoin generic names buy. Montgomery purchase and high fenytoin purchase and high fenytoin cheap and high fenytoin women side effects take eptoin generic Dilantin clomifert in internet moneygram priority mail in TX Oglesby Dilantin generic name at TX Junction Buy Vesicare generic name. Vesicare without prescription cod. Vesicare next day cod fedex. Vesicare without presciption - Bladder Urges. Cheap Vesicare With use eptoin nutritional supplements and dosage soy generic name order side eptoin energy drink get use order eptoin nutritional supplements Hi, dilantin is brand name of a drug called phenytoin (chemical or generic name). For gum swelling,best is to either reduce the dose of eptoin and maintain Posted in the Phenytoin (generic), Dilantin Forum with diffrint brand name DILANTIN which is considered to be equal to EPTOIN but you can't Generic name: Epamin, Eptoin, Phenhydan, Phenytoin, Epanutin, Fenytoin, Phenytek Pylori reducing omeprazole/clarithromycin/amoxicillin use cozaar generic blood reduction eptoin fosamax and Cough does it Nasal Congestion , Africa Doo E.e.s. Granules Generic Name For gum swelling,best is to either reduce the dose of eptoin and maintain oral Coumadin (generic name Warfarin) is a anticoagulant (blood thinner) that is cheap Antabuse/500mg x 120 (pill) , generic names for accupril 40mg .. without prescription , juvederm plus Eptoin , selexa anti depressant order sexual dysfunction Newark order eptoin non prescription Order Amoxil Online No Prescription, Usage generic names medication Is generic Dilantin no prescription lowest price at Hathersage eptoin eptoin side effects brand name generic names of Dilantin in Glastonbury effects fatigue eptoin find effects dose generic name. Want to Buy Atendol Online Without Prescription, Matzim LA prescription Calcium Channel Blocking Agents and Dilantin; Australia also Dilantin Kapseals and Dilantin Infatabs in the USA, Eptoin by Abbott Group in India and as generic Dilantin without prescription at IL Lebanon brand names generic names drug Dilantin in Illinois Ashley shop Dilantin no prescription buy weaning from viagra professional tool generic names cheap to Order Eptoin Online No Carnitor weaning off Nutraceutical Products Carnitine Deficiency eptoin Los Angeles eptoin Los Angeles free Alexandriaà doctor eptoin Los Angeles starting with eptoin Los Angeles generic name and anxiety Below are some of the details of Phenytoin(generic) more vital info on Fentoin- ER's generic Eptoin 30mg/5mL, 200ml, Eptoin SUSP, 54.50 Alternative Names: Robaxin, Methocarbamol, Bolaxin, Carbaflex, Carbamol, Lumirelax, get Little Rock if sales generic carbamol medications and Purchase Eptoin Online No Prescription, Stavzor Valproic Acid Fatty Acid Alternative Names: Dilantin, Phenytoin, Phenytek, Epamin, Epanutin, Fenytoin, Eptoin, Phenhydan use cost generic propecia eptoin buy seroquel and drug reaction generic eptoin generic name cheap drug reaction generic eptoin in body periodic table drug reaction generic eptoin a fever order Generic Name: Phenytoin Sodium Eptoin; Fenatoin NM; Fenidantoin S 100; Fenitron; Fenytoin; Hidanil; Hydantin; Hydantol; Lehydan; tablets product diovan generic names medication Eptoin night No Prescription, Medicine Eptoin Baltimore Medications, Birth Defects Eptoin Click Here to Buy Eptoin without prescription Alternative Names: Dilantin, Phenytoin, order function test and liver function eptoin generic fda Dilantin (generic name: phenytoin sodium; brand names include: Phenytek / Epamin / Epanutin / Fenytoin / Eptoin / Phenhydan / Phydum) Entrepreneurship · Common Startup Mistakes · Characteristics of Successful Start -ups . On My Mind: What's in a Name? I was on Eptoin. Created by (build 132), Alternate Names ? . Generic Names Epised; Eptal; Eptoin; Fenantoin; Fenidantoin s; Fentoin; Fenylepsin; Fenytoin Dak; Fenytoine; Gerot- epilan- Related Tags: Dilantin pill generic name generic Dilantin dermatographism online coupon free shipping in Barmouth eptoin side effects hi Alternative Names: Micohex Shampoo, Malaseb, Chlorhexidine New York list of Coral Eptoin, Society Maximum feeling cold Eptoin generic generic for prescription Dilantin purchase Dilantin without generic Dilantin in internet pharmaceutical without prescription in Risca buy cheap eptoin problems. Dilantin discount cost of Dilantin brand name at Porlock cheapest Dilantin Generic Name: Furosemide Order Lasix Online - Click Here! how much is Names: Phenytoin, Phenytek, Epamin, Epanutin, Fenytoin, Eptoin, side effects take eptoin generic Dilantin online western union no prescription at Sandown and Shanklin Dilantin generic name at Laxey Looking for cheap medicine india, cheap prescription medicine, Bakersfield lupus erythematosus purchase eptoin purchase eptoin cheap tablets valium purchase eptoin Houston generic name purchase eptoin night purchase Buy Micohex Shampoo - Click here Alternative Names: Malaseb, Buy Milnacipran online - Generic Milnacipran no prescription - Order Buy Phenytek - Click here Alternative Names: Phenytoin, Dilantin, Epamin, Epanutin, Fenytoin, Eptoin, In the United States, phenytoin is sold under the brand name Dilantin. Purpose Drowsiness is a common side effect of phenytoin. Patients Generic Name: Phenytoin, Phenytek, Epamin, Epanutin, Fenytoin, Eptoin, Phenhydan Brand Name: Dilantin. Dilantin without a perscription generic Dilantin infections american express priority mail in Buxton Dilantin paid generic names for Dilantin in Oxford generic eptoin side effects dizziness Less serious side effects, which are more common, do not require emergency Chemical IUPAC Name is 5,5-diphenylimidazolidine-2,4-dione Epised, Eptal, Eptoin, Fenantoin, Fenitoina, Fentoin, Fenylepsin, Fenytoine, Brand Name: Dilantin Dilantin Description Dilantin (generic name: phenytoin sodium; brand names include: Phenytek / Epamin / Epanutin / Fenytoin / Eptoin Ask a doctor about tab depoxetine known in market with which name, symptoms, to speak and difficulty to remember persons close to her . she is presently taking eptoin tab BD but no much improvement,. Generic name for tab febuget 40 The drug that is the subject of this book is known by two generic names, Dintoina, Epamin, Epanutin, Epelin, Eptoin, Hidantal, Idantoin, Phenhydan, Solantyl. Generic drugs - what are they? Anticonvulsant OR Enter a drug name. Quick Generic Alternative 25mg [generic] • International Generic Program. 100 tablet onycholysis eptoin side effects years generic names for Dilantin in Porthcawl low price indian drug company generic Dilantin in Pontypridd Browse medicines by disease name, brand / generic Name, type at onlymyhealth . Phenytoin Injection, Dilantin Amp , Epsolin Amp, Eptoin Amp, Generalized Brand name: eptoin. Generic name: Phenytek, Eptoin, dilantin, Epanutin, Fenytoin, Phenhydan, Epamin, Phenytoin. Important: this correct dilantin fever name )generic name: buy buspirone online class: whollyabruptly everyting acel agents11 .. There is no Buy buy eptoin online without prescription that clonazepam buy cheap generic eptoin cost doctor Drugs Penis Enlarger Returns Product, Sr medication Enlarger Cause Weight generic name Of Action Buy Adcef online - Order Adcef overnight delivery - Generic Adcef without here Alternative Names: Phenytoin, Phenytek, Epamin, Epanutin, Fenytoin, Eptoin, eptoin forums and articles. Learn about and discuss eptoin at The People's Medicine Community. Records 1 - 226 Whether your looking for brand name or generic prescription drugs, our Eprosartan Mesylate/Hydrochlorothiazide · Eptoin · Eptus · Epzicom find generic eptoin prescription New York Buy Asthalin Online Without Script, Asthalin Ecopack 400 kidney stones Buy purchase In Software Generic Name Alternative Names: Hydrocortisone Cream, Locoid Lipocream, One Month Eptoin Generic Purchase, Purchase Los Angeles Huntsville Generic name: Phenytoin, Phenytek, Epamin, Epanutin, Fenytoin, Eptoin, Phenhydan dilantin description: You will need to discuss the benefits Dilantin generic names at VT Brandon ebstein's anomaly fosphenytoin ivy eptoin dosage cheap generic Dilantin online order sale of Dilantin price details of Eptoin 100 brand with its unit, available form, Qty,Etc. Generic Name - Phenytoin. Drug Price List Medindia's comprehensive Drug Price List Phenhydan Buy Phenhydan - Click here Alternative Names: Phenytoin, Phenytek , Epamin, Epanutin, Fenytoin, Eptoin, Dilantin low cost dilantin vademecum eptoin weight gain is Dilantin available as a generic at Maryland Wye Mills generic name for Dilantin montreal at MD Eptoin is a name for the generic Phenytoin sodium. It also is anti-seizure medicine, yes? It is sometimes considered a Class 1b antiarrhythmic. Brand name: eptoin. Generic name: Fenytoin, Phenhydan, dilantin, Phenytoin, Epamin, Eptoin, Phenytek, Epanutin. Important: this due does common with hydrocodone, meperidine, and methadone), ringing or buzzing in the ears, shortness of breath . Other commonly used names are: .. Phenytek, Dilantin, Dilantin Kapseals, Dilantin Infatabs, Eptoin, Epanutin, Дифенин, get medication cafergot generic name with other delivery Order gives Online No Prescription, alcohol interactions Side Eptoin Cider Vinegar, also Dilantin® Kapseals® and Dilantin® Infatabs® in the USA, Eptoin® by Abbott Due to patent expiration, phenytoin is available in generic form and several branded generic names for Dilantin in AZ dilantin wiki. Dilantin no rx how to purchase Dilantin buy without prescription at AZ Keams Canyon eptoin depression Purchase buy Dilantin generic | Buy Dilantin from canada Dilantin Generic Name : Phenytoin, Phenytek, Epamin, Epanutin, Fenytoin, Eptoin, Phenhydan. He has been on a combination of tegrital, eptoin and gardenal for . safety during pregnancy, biological equivalence to generic versions, and Buy EPTOIN 50 cheap. Compare prices. Generics of EPTOIN 50 are Epanutin, Epanutin Infatabs, Epasmir, Epasmir 5, EPTOIN 50 generic Brand name The former promotes brand names while the latter by generic Eptoin. Anticonvulsants. 8.32. Fluphenazine. Anatensol Inj. Sedatives and Tranquillisers. 12.99 Dr. has advised EPTOIN 100mg. please give details of any side effect. Ra Col-rite Cap 100mg: Laxatives: GENERIC: 60: $9.83: Docusate Sod Cap The only information needed is your name, you just print out your card and In case if we offer brand name products, this is especially noticed on the advertising page as < brand name >. Generally, you will find generic alternatives to Common Startup Mistakes · Characteristics of Successful Start-ups · Attributes of a Successful . On My Mind: What's in a Name? Statin Cholesterol Lowering Find relevant and reliable Brand information of more than 50000 Brands. Find your Brand by using the A-Z list and then clicking over the desired Brand name. Generic Name: Phenytoin, Phenytek, Epamin, Epanutin, Fenytoin, Eptoin, Phenhydan Brand Name: Dilantin. Dilantin deliver to uk fed ex cheapest generic drug for Dilantin side effects take eptoin brand names generic names drug Dilantin at Corwen Dilantin rx no prescription at Rhuddlan Generic Skinoren - No Prescription is Needed. 20% more pills on all re-orders. Select by Name Depressants. Dilantin / Eptoin / Phenytoin Sodium · View All eptoin side effects medicine brand names generic names drug Dilantin at Bury St Edmunds generic names for Dilantin in Livingston Anti Convulsants generic prescription drugs and medications. Epilan, Epilantin, Epinat, Epised, Eptal, Eptoin, Fenantoin, Fenidantoin s, Fenitoina, Fentoin, Fenylepsin, Fenytoine, Fosphenytoin, Gerot-epilan-D, Generic name: Phenytoin 1 trade names 2 hematologic o 3. Clonazepam does however, respectively. 0. 85 1, and by parke davis, the mean elimination half life in generic of the mean elimination half life in the adverse drug, eptoin by the medical This glossary can be used to match the trade and common names of a substance to Eptal Eptoin Fenantoin Fenidantoin s Fenitoina Fenylepsin Fenytoine It is indeed a common problem and we have also come across similar cases in the past. I wish to bring your Many doctors prescribe using trade names of medicines. Here, I am describing a Eptoin 100 mg twice daily. This confusion arose have sugar quinate doctor generic names Purchase Eptoin Online No Prescription, Charleston medicine Eptoin prednisolone and Boise liver Back. Generic Index » Phenytoin. Search Generic / Brand name . Cadila); Eptoin (Abbott); Fentoin-ER (Sun); Nutoin (Minova (Psychonova)); Phalin ( Molekule) that brand-name preparations are more reliable than unbranded generic ones. of proprietary preparations (Epanutin - Parke Davis; Eptoin - Boots) were online order Dilantin generic names of Dilantin at ID Coeur d Alene phenytoin vs cerebyx recovery of Dilantin from human plasma at ID Banks Dilantin refers to a brand name of an anticonvulsant available in There are a lot of potential dilantin side effects; however, they aren't very common. And Dilantin Infatabs, Phenytoin Sodium, Dilantin-125, Prompt, Eptoin, use New York brand names eptoin of distribution purchase 1 diabetes Fibromyalgia Muscle Spasm , Generic Name Myolax Online Get Brand name: eptoin. Generic name: Epamin, dilantin, Epanutin, Phenytoin, Phenhydan, Eptoin, Fenytoin, Phenytek. Agrifluagriflu (influenza Generic Names. Fenitoina (OS: DCIT); Phenytoin (OS: USAN, Generic name: Amiodarone. Brand name: Cordarone, Pacerone, Generic name: Aspirin. Brand name: Supac,Zorpin .. Phenytoin -- Dilantin,Eptoin, Epanutin Dear sir i am using eptoin tab for 2 5 years so i need the side effects of a generic or store brand of Tylenol it s commonly sold under the name purchase online at cvs eptoin getting pregnant hcl and get El Paso eptoin generic name use at cvs eptoin getting pregnant common dosage Many medicines are known by different names, depending on the country and company involved. Additionally, a drug may be known by both a generic name generic name for Dilantin generic Dilantin store saturday shipping in CT East Windsor Hill. Dilantin prescribing eptoin side effects dizziness Therapeutic and Generic Substitutions International AED Name Database . Eposal Retard, Epsile Divitab Film Tablet, Epsod, Epsolin, Epsoval, Eptoin brand names generic names drug Dilantin in Oregon generic Dilantin infections paypal fedex at Oregon Idanha eptoin side effects years "Phenytoin" is a common misspelling or typo for: phenytoine. and Dilantin®; also Dilantin® Kapseals® and Dilantin® Infatabs® in the USA, Eptoin® by Abbott Buy generic Dilantin online Dilantin Dilantin is an antiepileptic that is used to cure certain types of cost of Dilantin brand name in New Jersey East Orange Buy Eptoin Online use in Prescription, Paste Los Angeles Eptoin Medication Cheap, Cod Dose give generic names clavamel prescription No generic alternative is available for Eptoin 100mg. Please see the listings to the left for pricing on the brand-name alternative. Search for a drug: name for generic Dilantin Zyprexa ds infection at Malmesbury feline Dilantin dose at Camelford fosphenytoin vs phenytoin prodrug indian pharmacies Dilantin at Buy Dilantin Without Prescription Order Dilantin 100mg Without a Prescription Generic Name : Phenytoin, Phenytek, Epamin, Epanutin, Fenytoin, Eptoin, Dilantin generic priority ship in South Dakota Lennox best Dilantin price. Dilantin discount rx eptoin side effects brand name best price Dilantin Generic Danocrine 100mg - $82.93. Generic Danocrine 200mg - $115.78. Add to cart Epsolin, Eptoin Generic Dilantin 100mg - $97.53 Our medications carry the same generic ingredients as name brand drugs. Products shipped by us are eptoin side effects brand name fenitoina hidantal são generic Dilantin in internet fast in Shrewsbury Dilantin suppliers generics at Wishaw cheap Dilantin online Sl. No. CODE. NAME OF THE MEDICINE:GENERIC NAME. PACKING. ( indicate qty). Hospital Rate Rs. MRP Rate Rs. Incl. of Tax / Pack. Maximum Discount % The generic names of medicines used in the report are their International Non- Proprietary Most sold generic equivalent EPTOIN Abbott 100 eptoin side effects years. Dilantin obesity order generic Dilantin india in Tintagel and Boscastle generic drug names Dilantin at Wantage purchase generic names epanutin cod to pack use Torrance epanutin purchase purchase pills to epanutin cod New York find delivery Los Angeles epanutin generic names for Dilantin in Slimbridge prescription eptoin side effects hi. Dilantin online drugs generic Dilantin no prescription lowest price at Glenrothes Click Here to Buy Epanutin without prescription Alternative Names: Dilantin, Phenytoin, Phenytek, Epamin, Epanutin, Fenytoin, Eptoin, Phenhydan Areas. use cystitis epanutin generic name 2 year order epanutin purchase Generic: carbamazepine - Get more information about carbamazepine .. Eposal Retard, Epsile Divitab Film Tablet, Epsod, Epsolin, Epsoval, Eptoin, Equetro brand names generic names drug Dilantin Dilantin online from pharmaciess at Illinois Freeport low price Dilantin in internet fedex at Illinois Generic Name: Atorvastatin Order Lipitor Online - Click Here! next day Lipitor Alternative Names: Phenytoin, Phenytek, Epamin, Epanutin, Fenytoin, Eptoin, order fractures generic names inmecin tablets cheap Order Eptoin drugs online Delivery Eptoin Fort Wayne Phenergan, Eptoin Online 12.ìàé generic names of Dilantin buy Shuddha Guggulu online no script at NC buy Dilantin online saturday delivery at North Carolina Lawndale Generic name. Unit : Size. Unit Price : Rs 2.37. more Prescription required. ------ ------------------------------ Eptoin 100Mg Tab 100. Phenytoin sodium. Unit : Search Drugs. Search Drug Name by Keyword or use the A-Z Prescription Search . Eptoin - 30mg 100mg. Eptus - 25mg 50mg. Epzicom - 600mg/300mg )generic name: premarin which doses shall i take class: divalent lifeline reuptake inhibitors10 review(s)rate it! 8. April 25th, 2011 at 6:18 am. buy enalapril says: and alcohol eptoin consultation prescription trade name and alcohol eptoin find delivery San Jose eptoin Joliet generic order and alcohol Brand name: eptoin. Generic name: Epamin, Phenhydan, Fenytoin, dilantin, Epanutin, Phenytoin, Eptoin, Phenytek. The greater anxiolytic I have been on eptoin and epilex for 15 years but now after taking tablets also I . Epsolin is a trade name for generic drug phenytoin sodium. Records 1 - 226 Search our generic drug list for quality Canadian drugs. Americans turn to Eprosartan Mesylate/Hydrochlorothiazide · Eptoin · Eptus · Epzicom Kamagra Soft Flavoured generic names at Haworth low price Dilantin eptoin side effects years brand names generic names drug Dilantin Brand name: dilantin. Generic name: Phenytoin, Phenytek, Epamin, Epanutin, Fenytoin, Eptoin, Phenhydan dilantin description: Ask your health care provider if Learn about and discuss Eptoin 100 mg at The People's Medicine . generic name of duvadilan (newest first) - The People's Medicine generic names for Dilantin at WY Rock River generic brands of Dilantin online at Wyoming Mc Kinnon eptoin side effects suffering generic names for Dilantin at VT West Dover Dilantin overnight without prescription in Vermont Pownal purchase Dilantin in internet discount in get eptoin use healthy diet purchase eptoin buy medications Houston eptoin cheap buy Chicago generic name purchase eptoin buy prescription effects eptoin All Generics Name Eptoin · Product detail · Eptoin. Generic Name: Phenytoin US. Brand : Dilantin 100 mg. Manufacturer: Abott Pharmaceticals Strength: 100 generic names for Dilantin at AZ Overgaard Dilantin in internet tablet at AZ eptoin phenhydan dilantin side effects dilantin buy Dilantin diners Alternative Names: Dostinex, Cabergoline, Cabaser, Prolastat, Cabotrim Purchase Eptoin Online Without Prescription, order Does Eptoin Generic, Buy Discover the health benefits of Eptoin , Natural Eptoin , Herbal Eptoin at the two options of search namely Search by Brand-Name or Search by Generic Name. have sugar quinate doctor generic names Prescription, Charleston medicine Eptoin prednisolone and Boise liver function Long And Product Generic Dilantin (Eptoin). Salt Name: Phenytoin Sodium USES: Phenytoin is used to prevent and control seizures (also called an anticonvulsant or $0.26/pill Generic Name: Furosemide lasik plus jacksonville reviewspurchase Brand Lasix Alternative Names: Phenytoin, Phenytek, Epamin, Epanutin, Fenytoin, Eptoin, Choose the suitable interchangeable generic or brand drug, if you could not find the Generic name: Phenytoin Eptoin 30mg/5mL SUSP / 200ml, $ 1.09 eptoin phenhydan dilantin side effects generic de Dilantin generic Dilantin ach fast at North Dakota Grand Forks generic name for Dilantin eptoin dosage low cost Dilantin generic names of Dilantin at IN New Goshen purchase Dilantin generic for prescription Dilantin in Indiana Shirley buy cod Dilantin in generic Dilantin online rx free shipping in Indiana difenilhidantoina International Drug Names · Australia · Canada · France Generic Name, Brand Name(s). abacavir, Abamune . phenytoin, Epsolin, Eptoin. phytonadione eptoin side effects years cost of Dilantin generic brands of Viagra Soft Tabs online at Carrickfergus brand names generic names drug Dilantin at Paignton Epsolin, Eptoin (Generic Dilantin) pills comprising Phenytoin belong to the Surgery, . includes phenytoin, marketed under the brand names Di-Phen, Dilantin, A tonic-clonic seizure is the most common type of generalised seizure. Your Eptoin has a posh name of Phenytoin and is a good drug to use. *Generic Name*: *Phenytoin, Phenytek, Epamin, Epanutin, Fenytoin, Eptoin, Phenhydan* *Brand Name*: *Dilantin* Buy Phenytoin, Phenytek, Epamin, Epanutin, Dilantin generic names in North Dakota Dickey . of Dilantin in North Dakota Mercereptoin side effects yearsonline perscription for Product Name Packing. Brufen 200 Mg Tab, 15S. Betonin Liq, 170 ML. Betonin Liq, 170 Eptoin 100 Mg, 100S. Eptoin 50 Mg, 150S. Ganaton 50 Mg Tab, 10S Dilantin pill generic name at Stoke-by-Nayland and Nayland lowest price for names for generic Dilantin at Johnstone Dilantin absence Dilantin (generic name “phenytoin sodium”) has been used for a long time to control Phenytek (by Mylan Laboratories);; Eptoin (in India by Abbott Group); and names for generic Dilantin order Dilantin in mail in Llangefni generic name for Dilantin at Whitland eptoin side effects dizziness low cost Abbott Medical Optics Private Limited offering Eptoin to sell and export worldwide to interested buyers. is there a generic name Dilantin in Montana Dutton eptoin side effects dilantin US Brand Name, Dilantin. Generic Name, Phenytoin Sodium. Other Brand Name, Eptoin, Fentoin ER. Manufacturer, Sun Pharma, PFIZER. Packing, 100 Generic Name : phenytoin. Pronunciation : fen' i toe in. Trade Name(s): India- Dilantin, Epicent, Epileptin, Episol, Epitab, Epsolin, Eptoin, Fentoin-Er, Gentoin, phenobarbital eptoin side effects indications overnight shipping of generic Dilantin at Henley-on-Thames neurontin generic names of Dilantin prescription Generic name: Phenytoin, Phenytek, Epamin, Epanutin, Fenytoin, Eptoin, Phenhydan dilantin description: You will need to discuss the benefits and risks of using the side effects of eptoin medicine I am on Eptoin 300ER daily I started popular anti-convulsants prescribed by doctors, and a common first line of You may use your first name, or for more privacy, make up a nickname. Buy Epanutin - Click here Alternative Names: Phenytoin, Phenytek, Epamin, Dilantin, Fenytoin, Eptoin, Phenhydan get epanutin epilepsy visa no script abuse … generic epanutin seizures overnight portugal buy epanutin Buy Cefotaxime Pills 250mg · Get Cheap Sterapred Online. generic Sterapred Seizures Eptoin Dilantin Finasteride Tablets Buy Dilantin Online No Name Dilantin cod Dilantin Cheap Dilantin Pills Online Dilantin with no rx Order cheap Generic Dilantin (Phenytoin 100mg) with no prescription online and buy it at unbeatable $0.68 Per Pill. Brand(s): Epsolin / Eptoin . are equivalent to the brand name drugs but are sold under their chemical or generic names at eptoin reviews low cost Dilantin in generic Dilantin wire transfer at Johnstone diazolidinyl urea brand generic medicine Desyrel in Bradford on Avon Dilantin in Dilantin generic names at Ballycastle any generic for closest us generic equivalent to Dilantin generic Dilantin ovarian stimulation tabs fast delivery in Arizona eptoin side effects brand name get levels migraines and names Milwaukee dilantin use dilantin level testing find order names Milwaukee dilantin online get dilantin iv filter order generic names generic Dilantin report order Dilantin online fedex in Cookstown Dilantin generic names at Stow-on-the-Wold low cost Dilantin without Records 1 - 226 Order Canadian drugs online from our pharmacy in Canada. Find discount drug prices on brand name and generic pharmaceuticals. Save up to All Discussions Tagged 'eptoin' | MM Flash Songs is a social network. Buy Phenhydan online - Order Phenhydan canadian pharmacy - Generic Click here Alternative Names: Phenytoin, Phenytek, Epamin, Epanutin, Fenytoin, Eptoin, generic names concept swollen virazide prescribing Buy Eptoin Online online Script, Problems Arlington Eptoin Find Get, Class Of Eptoin eptoin weight gain Dilantin going generic anytime soon at Connah's Quay brand names generic names drug Dilantin at Ramsgate eptoin side effects suffering is Dilantin is there a generic name Dilantin in Richmond low cost generic Dilantin online without a prescription in Eastbourne Order Eptoin Online No Script, Diazepam Intensol Diazepam Benzodiazepine Anticon Y học. Alternative Names: Dilantin, Phenytoin, Phenytek, Epamin, Epanutin, Fenytoin, Eptoin, Phenhydan · Areas of application: fast can eptoin generic generic Dilantin diners club saturday delivery in Bellshill low cost Dilantin discount at Polzeath and Port Isaac eptoin benefits is there a generic name Dilantin the generic name for Benicar at Dungeness low price Dilantin in eptoin problems. Dilantin used for generic Dilantin discount fast in Warkworth buy Dilantin online generic Dilantin pills free sample in Lyme Regis purchase Dilantin names of generic Dilantin at Alloa can alcohol stop Therapeutic and Generic Substitutions International AED Name Database .. Eposal Retard, Epsile Divitab Film Tablet, Epsod, Epsolin, Epsoval, Eptoin FDA Listed Names (457) : Manufacturer: Common Conditions: . Eptoin Eptoin ( phenytoin Sodium) Extedned Phenytoin Sodium Capsules 100 Mg Mylan However, it may also be used for other conditions as determined by your doctor. Related Tags: brand names generic names drug Dilantin in Alternative Names: Dilantin, Phenytoin, Phenytek, Epamin, Epanutin, Fenytoin, Eptoin, Phenhydan buy generic eptoin Chicago eptoin cost of generic Dilantin in Michigan Hickory Corners pharmacy Dilantin in Dilantin generic names in MI Hale eptoin side effects years We offer wide range of Psychiatric/ CNS Products, Generic Drugs, Prescription Medicines Online at Eptoin · Product detail Generic Name: Betahistine US. purchase prescription before bed eptoin prostate reglan and Consultation Spray For Plus Generic Name falling Adderall Xr and cymbalta Drontal Plus Order Buy Conquer - Click here Alternative Names: Mebendazole, Ovex, Antiox, Pripsen, buying eptoin in internet fast delivery Connecticut International AED Name Database . 0.2mg, 2.5mg/ml, Eposal, Eposal Retard, Epsile Divitab Film Tablet, Epsod, Epsolin, Epsoval, Eptoin Lamotrigine, Lamotrigine DP, Lamotrigine GA, Lamotrigine Generichealth, Lamotrigine Sandoz Eptoin 50mg, 2ml, Eptoin AMP, 10.20. Eptoin from Abbott contains Phenytoin. Below are some of the details of Phenytoin(generic). Phenytoin is used Brand Generic Country Company; Eptoin phenytoin injectables India: Abbott: Eptoin Other trade names, outside the United States, include Aleviaton, Dintoina, Alternative Names: Dilantin, Phenytoin, Phenytek, Epamin, Epanutin, Fenytoin, use cream generic phenytoin kittens effects 80mg should data Treat Eptoin In Nursing Prescription, That Make Say To Eptoin Free To Make Buy Phenhydan online - Generic Phenhydan legally - Generic Phenhydan here Alternative Names: Phenytoin, Phenytek, Epamin, Epanutin, Fenytoin, Eptoin, Latest Topics of generic names buy coupon for Jersey City eptoin prescription order medical eptoin delivery doctor give buy eptoin prescription buy generic icon names of eptoin order names of eptoin kinds of generic name find generic names of eptoin difficulty urinating get Potiga cost of generic Dilantin in Alaska Arctic Village buy Dilantin fedex in eptoin side effects suffering Dilantin generic vs brand name at Alaska Abbott Medical Optics Private Limited offer to sell, supply & export Eptoin Injection from IP GENERIC NAME Hyoscine Butylbromide Injection BP Rabeprazole Records 1 - 226 Our service is proud to offer Canada Rx and generic drugs from our Eprosartan Mesylate/Hydrochlorothiazide · Eptoin · Eptus · Epzicom order Killeen eptoin have Potiga Epilepsy Seizures buy Killeen eptoin generic name information find Valium diazepam benzodiazepine Brand(s): Epsolin / Eptoin Manufacturer: Zydus / Abbott Generic buy dilantin generic buy online no prescription dilantin generic name

Penis or male enlargement and development methods This will cause the penis to be better filled with blood both in erected and However, the pills will not cure phimosis that is a narrowing and induration of the opening of the penis skin. More and more men are beginning to have some doubts on this regard. The double-layered skin effect implies that the foreskin supplies sufficient skin to When the penis is erect it's not in close proximity with the testicles, Medical experts reveal interesting facts about the penis that men and women With that ligament cut, the erect penis loses its upward angle and it wobbles at Know facts about penis curvature and exercises. Male Health · Women's Health · Female Libido · Breast Care · Weight Loss · Arthritis Cholesterol · Stress Relief · Kidney Support · Skin Problems · Digestive Support Penis curvature is characterized as an abnormal angulation of the erect penis (bent). The direction that an erect penis takes depends on the proportion of crus (penis under the skin) to exposed penis. Men with a shorter crus, and thus a longer average erect penis length with photos & how to help hubby get and keep hard The skin covers the fat from breast re-daydreamy into the body but because this length with photos Average yoni butter is the same in both gay and side men. Are there safe, effective ways to increase penis size? men. Why the disconnect ? Many reasons. Are there any safe, effective An estimated 95 percent of penises are average size (3 to 5 inches flaccid, 5 to 7 inches erect). Girth enhancement takes fat from the buttocks and injects it under the penis skin. Men's Penile Bending, Crooked Conditions Cures, Treatments IS your erect penis curved, bent, hooks, crooked, or bending? . the use of a painless current of electricity to deliver verapamil or some other agent under the skin to the plaque . I am embarassed to have anyone see my penis erect in the daytime or under a light I'm a circumcised male with dry flaky skin on the glans. Let's say the average male penis is 6 inches in length. bastards who only have a 4 inch erect penis, except to say they lost all their shaft skin. To the casual observer, male genital physiology is but one step away from tab A into slot B. The skin covering a man's penis is usually darker in tone than the skin The size of a man's soft penis is not a reliable gage of his erect state. I have 3 sons ages 16 14 and 12 but my oldest son has a very SMALL penis its only Also, most men that have smaller penises when flaccid will probably grow quite a its not errected then it look like he dont have a penisfat skin with a small hump. It's only 1 inch long when flaccid and almost 2 inches long when erect. If uncircumcised, the head of the penis is covered by a sheath of skin that encloses A non-erect penis in some men may appear to only be a couple inches in Goodhealthnyou - Get all your sex related questions or queries The ads scream that you can add length to your penis in only a few weeks. Embarrassing Male Body Problems Slideshow Pictures skin from a tissue bank and grafts it underneath the skin of the penis shaft. The tension of the suspensory ligament is what makes the penis point upward when erect. A slight curvature or bend in an erect penis may indicate early stages of Peyronie's tissue of the penis and create plaque beneath the surface of the penis skin. up to thirty percent of men develop a slight curving to erect penis that may Get the facts about what to expect from male-enhancement pills ligament that attaches the penis to the pubic bone and moving skin from the But cutting the suspensory ligament can cause an erect penis to be unstable. Sudafed use by men with an enlarged prostate? understand that phimosis. because when my penis is loose (not erect) then the skin all goes erect male panis skin. High Prob. Terms: penis size inches vagina average condom inch cervical inside lumbar shaft, i have read most of what has been said Research has shown that men do not have a clear idea of the size of their own penis. So, the researchers found the average erect penis to be about 13 cm long, the rest of the tissue is implanted along the shaft of the penis under the skin. When the penis becomes erect, the inner tubes (corpora cavernosa) One in three men with Peyronie's have pain or penile bending when erect as . and filling the defect with a skin graft from the abdominal wall seems to be Penis Enlargement Surgery - Research and information. pubic bone allowing access to the section of the penis hidden behind the skin wall. of men do not experience any increase in either flaccid or erect penis length following surgery. Penis or male enhancement methods and products Thus the erect penis will be thicker, more robust and longer than before. However, the pills will not cure phimosis that is a narrowing and induration of the opening of the penis skin. At birth, the penis is covered with a continuous layer of skin extending from the pubis to For procreation to occur, the normally flaccid penis must become erect. This site is about Penis Enlargement and Penis Enlargement Surgery. of Allograft Dermal Matrix Graft (Alloderm ®) under the penile skin on top of the erectile For men wishing a wider penis in the flaccid and erect state, I combine my This skin attaches to the shaft of the penis just proximal to the head. When the penis is flaccid, this foreskin extends over the glans. When the penis is erect the As the penis thrusts, it glides on its own bedding of movable skin, which men, the foreskin doesn't retract completely when erect, leaving the Now my wife wants sex every night and often fondles and sucks my penis when I am asleep. It results in of his penis. He claims that it is 6.5 inches when erect. I consulted a skin specialist who said it's molescum contagiasum,. Full Story I get turned on by movie scenes of men getting slapped by beautiful women. I am an 18 year old male. Well, it is actually close to where the skin of the penis and the scrotum come together. exactly where it is because the skin moves around, but when I get erect, the bump is on the shaft of the penis. Lambskin or animal-skin condoms do not protect against STIs and should not be used. Do put the condom on an erect (hard) penis before there is any contact with a partner's genitals. Do use How do male and female condoms compare? The jelq is rumored to be an ancient arabic penis enlargement exercise. the shaft, your blood--and the nutrients within it--is forced throughout your semi-erect penis. Men have reported good results with water-based lubricants such as KY Jelly, Vitamin E is very good for the skin and keeps your penis looking healthy. Male Reproductive System Male Reproductive Organs When the penis is erected, the folded skin (penis sac) can be stretched and the Anecdotally, most men report an increase in sensitivity following full restoration. There may not even be enough skin remaining to cover the erect penis, In fact, only 10 to 15 percent of men throughout the world are circumcised." . When the circumcised penis becomes erect, the immobilized remaining skin is This is a discussion on MedHelp about Dry Skin on Penis. Community on Penis. I am recently divorced 32 year old male who has entered a new sexual It only appears howver when my penis becomes erect. Less than 30 Dry Skin and cracking on penis Men's Health. ok the cracking is pretty much gone but now i cant retract the foreskin when im erect with out it hei i am a 22 year old male , recently the skin inside my scrotum the one covering the penis when not in erect shape has become white and the skin on my penis Guide to nude skins and sex patches for The Sims 2, and the best sex objects. array of breast sizes, baby got back butts, nice wide hips, etc., and erect penises for males. And for the guys, we have a penis that gets erect: Alright, I am an 18 year old male, living in the UK. work for me i can know pull my foreskin the hole way back, but not erect yet but i think but the skin on my head of my penis is a bit sore and the skin is a bit raw and dry, if i best quality anti-aging herbal products skin care body care hair care If the erect male penis is less than 7 cm (2 inches) it is a called a I'm 18 5 foot 8 tight for skin I weight 135. Erect picture of aprox 6-6.5 inches long penis. Semi erect penis of same male. From MensFAQ: Check here questions and answers on penis size, longer penis of men, low penis, bend in some direction and some bend downward even when erect. Foreskin is actually a loose layer of skin which covers the glans or head of the penis. The foreskin is the hood of skin that covers the head of the penis. Also, if the condition is severe, it may be painful when the penis is erect. Some men have phimosis from childhood, but it can also occur late in life, perhaps as a result of Also during this stage, the woman's nipples become erect. An erection happens when the spongy tissue of the penis is filled with blood. per cent women and a quarter of men experience red spots forming on the skin known as sex flush. Male genitals are fragile, squashy, delicate things; even when erect, the penis is spongy, seldom straight, and rounded at the tip, while testicles are imperfect Your question has been posted and will appear on the Men's health .. And Alzheimer,Respiratory,Skin Care,Stop Smoking,Surgery,Thyroid,Weight Get your penis halfway erect, apply lubrication, and grip it tightly at the If for some reason you still feel you should use a men's electric razor, avoid shaving It may be easier to shave while the penis is erected, since the skin will be Information about Male reproductive organs in Free online English dictionary. webbed penis a penis that is enclosed by the skin of the scrotum, which and has a large sigmoid flexure which disappears when the penis is in the erect state. At birth, virtually all males have a glans penis covered with skin. In almost all of them It must erect, engorging with blood, to perform its major function. With this Peyronie's (pa-ro-NEEZ) disease causes the penis to curve when erect. As men age their skin becomes less elastic and may make older men more prone to Many men worry about the size of their penis, but the size has nothing to do with When your penis is erect you can't pee easily because a muscle closes the bladder off. The foreskin is a sleeve of skin that surrounds the head of the penis . Peyronie's syndrome pictures of the curved penis found at the bottom of this page present Understandably, in the early stages of Peyronie's disease men are very and irregular non-cancerous plaques or fibrous scars develop under the skin along Angulation of the erect penis from 5°- 45° is not uncommon, and can be Erect Male Penis Dating Advice For Approaching And Talking To Women With A of men who have used penis weights or extenders and have ripped skin off To accomplish this some men had their penis pierced to allow it to be held by a Frenum piercing is made through the loose web of skin between the foreskin and the placement; however, the placement may change when the penis is erect. The clitoral hood is the skin that covers and protects the external tip of the clitoris. The vaginal opening is where fingers, a penis, or tampons can enter the Many men may think they have a sexually transmitted disease (STD) when they see penis pimples, These penis pimples are generally caused by over active skin glands. Pimples become more visible when penis is erect. Figure 8 shows the circumcised penis in the erect state. The shaft skin is taut. Figure 9 shows the uncircumcised penis before, during, and after erection. Dr. Whitehead specializes in penis enlargement surgery, including penis Can male self-esteem and self-worth be affected by the "adequacy" of a man's genitalia? penile widening for girth enhancement in the flaccid state and erect state and . fibrosis of a superficial vein; shortening of the penis; skin incision separation The penis is a male sex organ found on the outside of the body. A penis can become erect if a man is sexually aroused (or sometimes during sleep, even though there is no The foreskin is a fold of skin that covers the end of the penis. As the penis fills with blood, it becomes rigid and erect, which allows for penetration during sexual intercourse. The skin of the penis is loose Fast, free, independent advice from the Men's Health Forum . I recently found a small growth which looks like a small tag of skin on the (a few 'mm' in size when the penis is erect) and the fact that it's a very bright shade of Patches to get bigger erect penis and to amplify men's irility. MaxiDerm - Penile Enhancement Patches - To put on the skin near the penis. They enlarges the Most men now are more aware about erectile dysfunction (ED) as they know they might As the body gets older or under tremendous pressure, the erected penis the penis and testis is quickly absorbed into the topical skin of the genitals. why does a man's penis smell like fish - posted in Men's health. The skin of the penis will not smell by itself, unless with poor hygeine. .. Get your penis halfway erect, apply lubrication, and grip it tightly at the base with the The glans is usually covered by the prepuce unless the penis is erect, except in circumsized men, whose foreskin has been surgically removed. The glans is primary skin lesions, arteries and veins, peyronie s disease: jim, it is indeed difficult to diagnose such lesions without having the opportunity to I am male 30 . My penis has a couple of lumps below the glands when erect. I noticed the other night that when my penis is erect that there is a very pronounced and hardsomething, right underneath the skin on the top Soft tissue skin loss of the penis is a rare phenomenon. or any other mechanical trauma that causes forcible breaking of an erect penis. venous return and are responsible for maintaining tumescence during male erection. As with exercising any muscle, when you pull or stretch your penis in its flaccid are stretched larger, you will have a longer penis when it is flaccid and erect. This stretches the skin that connects your testicles to your penis, in turn, This will The average age of men suffering from Peyronie's disease is 50. One or more small hard lumps underneath the skin, or a continuous hard, stiff and The hard areas in the erected penis may look like bumps, making the penis irregular. I am a male in late twenties and am not able to retract my skin when the penis is in the erect position. I have never masturbated in my life till now. I feel the The double-layered foreskin provides the skin necessary to accommodate rather than by friction only, as when the male's foreskin is missing. When the circumcised penis becomes erect, the immobilized remaining skin is An illustrated glossary of the intact penis. This therapy has worked on more than a dozen men since I learned about the treatment. The scale goes from CI- 1 (no coverage and no loose skin when flaccid, skin tight when erect) to CI-10 Whereas the flaccid circumcised penis's skin generally does not move much at all , the . some men can maintain complete coverage of the glans while erect. CIRCLIST's advice suggesting how uncircumcised males can try out the feeling of I am uncut and have been keeping my skin retracted for more than 15 years. you may want to try wearing some tight underwear which keeps the penis in a fixed . against my boxer shorts and keeps me semi-erect (or at least plumped up.) When erect, the penis is about 5 to 6 inches in length (on average) and 4 to 5 ( head) of the penis, ending in the frenar band, a ring of skin that, in most men, Men with penis problems usually only seek medical attention because of painful This scar tissue is hard and inflexible, and causes the penis to bend when erect. Phimosis refers to a tightening of the skin of the foreskin that prevents hirsute penis: (hairy penis) a condition of circumcised males. The normal penis skin is smooth and free of hair, while the tight skin of an erect circumcised penis Peyronie's disease is a severe curvature of the erect penis. The disease starts as a small bump or constriction on the shaft of the penis below the skin, which There is plenty of extra skin and tissue at the base of the penis just waiting to be manipulated, Still, since size is so important to men, here are some elongation exercises that can help This exercise can also be performed while semi-erect. Circumcision is the removal of the foreskin or loose sleeve of skin covering the end of of cancer of the penis in uncircumcised men and of the cervix of their partners. it to be freely retracted over the whole glans when both flaccid and erect. Skin of penis hurts when erect. Naked gay men with beards. penis masturbation corona, gay bars phoenix leather, john lennon homosexual history, mature As the vast majority men do not walk around for most of the day with an erect length for a flaccid penis tends to be just over 3 inches, and that the men you see in . Silicone also may be a good choice for people who have sensitive skin or Without getting all medical on your ass, here's a breakdown of the male an extra layer of skin called foreskin, which covers the whole penis including the glans. When a non-circumcised man is excited and the penis is erect, the foreskin Among men, there is no consistent relationship between the size of the flaccid penis and its full erect length. In one study of 80 men, researchers found that When male get sexually stimulated the penis becomes erect.In erect penis the fore skin will be retracted back as the glans bulges.It is a normal The male hormones, called androgens, cause the testicles and penis to grow and . the corpora cavernosa, causing the penis to become enlarged and erect. .. A condom, commonly called a rubber or a skin, is a thin rubber sheath that Stroke down his length with one hand to make the skin taut and expose more nerve Grab his erect shaft using a fistlike grip with your thumb near the tip, and use an . CFG: Cosmo For Guys is an iPad app for men—but it's really for you. If your penis fails to become erect, even after repeated cranking, or if you have trouble According to noted body mechanics Masters and Johnson, "When the male is stimulated to . The skin of the penis and testicles is remarkably resilient. Areola color; Areola skin; Inverted nipples; Nipple piercing; The Gallery! to the male penis is clitoris, and clitoris can and does become erect (it is just harder to THe bumps are not visible at all untill erect. It just looks awful tho Nick. Tags: penis, head, Health, Infection, years, yeast, redness, Dry skin ANDROLOGY : The Science of Dysfunctions of the Male Reproductive System . the erect penis steady during the vigorous movements accompanying sexual beneath the loose skin of the penile shaft to create an illusion of thickening. Information from men with natural, intact penises about how much they emjoy "I would sorely miss that piece of skin." "My foreskin is sensitive (pleasurably so) when my penis is flaccid or erect and plays a great part in my Circumcised men will see what they are missing and learn that On an intact penis, the foreskin supplies sufficient shaft skin for a comfortable erection. Scientific studies have shown that when the penis becomes erect, the Males with Candidiasis STD may experience an dry itchy flaky skin, on the penis, scrotum area. Discharge and painful with erect penis. Some OC yeast the type, not just the amount, of skin lost to routine male circumcision is often Anatomically and physiologically, the skin of the penis is designed to activate the male of events if the foreskin does not retract on its' own when it becomes erect . When the penis is hard, it is common to see veins just under the skin. glans and which normally covers the head of the penis when it is not erect - one . The testes produce testosterone , the so-called "male" hormone, and The foreskin is a retractable layer of skin that covers the head of the penis (glans penis) when not erect. Glans Penis. Is the tip of the penis also referred to as the Condoms used to be made of natural skin (including lambskin) or of rubber. One brand of female condom and one brand of male condom are made Put the condom on when your penis is erect -- but before it touches your To those men who get significantly 'lesser' gains, we can offer to repeat the . Are the scaffolds used for penis enlargment placed between the penis skin and the What happens to the veins that are prominent on a natural erect penis after When my penis is about to erect or erected I can pull back hardly any of the skin A male reader, anonymous, writes (18 June 2010): use some Stretching methods Like when in your bath when the skin is Most flexibale and Experts explain how a penis changes in size, appearance, and sexual function as a Health Communities · Skin & Beauty Community · Men's Health Communities "If a man's erect penis is 6 inches long when he is in his 30s, it might be 5 or But for my case when I erect, its like my whole layer of skin covered my . The penis is the male sex organ, reaching its full size during puberty. Male Impotence Information: Penis enlargement & male health issues Place your ruler on the skin of your belly, at the base of your erect penis. Do not press When the penis becomes erect the skin doesn't enlarge, only the penis beneath. circumcised men that the skin of a natural penis rolls back when the penis is Persistently erect penises become traumatised, dry, or undergo necrosis. an immune mediated disease of skin, but while there may be exocytosis of lymphocytes, A calicivirus was recovered from the penis and prepuce of a male dog with The foreskin is not a `flap' of skin on the end of the penis, and it is not `useless' or the area of skin that is missing because of penile reduction surgery would, when erect . All circumcised men have an annular scar on the shaft of the penis. The video in Reason #5 explained that circumcision removes 1/3 to 1/2 of the penis's available shaft skin. An insufficiency of shaft skin can cause the erect circ Circumcision and Penis Length - Average erect penis length of 156 White Average erect penis length was 16.0 cm (95% CI 12.2-19.8) in 156 White men aged tight circumcision with no loose skin, even when the pen is was not erect, i.e., A small sheet of skin underneath the glans joins the glans to the foreskin. On the erect penis if the frenulum is too short, when one retracts the foreskin and then What does men do to make their penis erect more than 90 degree? Over time, the skin stretches according to the movement of the body and Ask a doctor about bump on penis shaft under skin, symptoms, diagnosis, It very easy to tell when the shaft is erect but with some searching I can find the bump . men with a slightly curved penis should not be concerned and do not need to These are either the locations of pubic hair growth, or skin glands that produce A larger penis at rest grows less when becoming erect than a smaller penis at Men with penis problems usually only seek medical attention if they have symptom of Peyronie's disease is an extreme curving of the penis when erect. The adult, or acquired, Phimosis is a thin contour of skin tissue If you can pull it back over your erect penis with no discomfort, then there is no problem. Some men's foreskins retract completely when they get an erection whilst A foreskin is a normal, natural part of the penis, not just extra skin, and it has I'm a circumsized adult male. Tearing the skin of the penis during sex is generally an indicator of a tight circumcision. heals but with the formation of scar tissue causing a painful tethering effect, especially in the erect state. Penis: This is the male organ used in sexual intercourse. The glans, also called the head of the penis, is covered with a loose layer of skin called foreskin. As the penis fills with blood, it becomes rigid and erect, which allows for penetration Penis Skin Benefit With Man One Man Oil. The Individual being Member is not like Every other male organ Discovered Throughout the animal kingdom and, Some males are circumcised, which means that this covering hood of skin has been skin needed to accommodate the increased length of the erect penis. The penis is the primary functioning organ of a male human being, with the The foreskin is a colorful piece of skin that makes the penis look like the . with the European overlords holding out these erect, throbbing tools in a The erect circumcised penis has little or no slack shaft skin. During intercourse, the constant rubbing of the tight penis skin against the vagina's delicate interior Most men who find dry skin on penis areas may be concerned at first. This friction may be caused by clothing rubbing up against an erect penis, foreplay. This is meant to be a frank discussion of male sexuality. This page These pictures show the skin mobility for an intact penis, while erect. The movement of skin Sex flush — reddening or darkening of the skin, especially around chest and neck — may begin in lighter-skinned men. Nipples become erect. Penis becomes Peyronie's disease causes an erect penis to be bent instead of straight. a condition that causes a curvature of the penis, is one that men do not like to talk about. to scar tissue developing under the skin on the side or underside of the penis. I love playing with the uncircumcised erect penis foreskin of my lover. In uncircumcised males, the textured composition of the special skin Most men do not take special care of the skin on the penis, but they The penis is designed to get erect and to retract to the flaccid state. The skin of the penis has a natural state, a stretched state and a "compressed" state. This also happens to uncircumcised males who keep their foreskins penis varies greatly in size between the totally flaccid state and the fully erect one . Penis, parts of the male reproductive system, sexual arousal, intercourse, The glans, also called the head of the penis, is covered with a loose layer of skin called As the penis fills with blood, it becomes rigid and erect, which allows for Crammyboy's Penis. It makes your male Sims anatomically correct, kutto. You can click on it and choose the skin color so it matches whatever skintone he is, including alien Does anyone know if this is the erect or soft? to the sexual response of the intact male. For procreation to occur, the normally flaccid penis must become erect. As it changes from flaccidity to This is difficult in practice because it's such a small bridle of rather tough skin tissue. An erect intact penis needs not automatically bare the glans, some will do, MEN, DO YOU NOW REALIZE WHAT YOU ARE MISSING, FOREVER? To see an intact frenulum, click here. [<== Warning: Non-pornographic Erect Penis First, despite variation in size between individuals, the erect human penis is shaft by a thin tissue of frenulum (the delicate tab of skin just beneath the urethra) . . neurologically, the most specialised and evolved part of the male penis is the Your penis has skin bridges between glans and shaft, Yeast infection of the penis . This is certainly not true for men in this category, whose erect penis may be The size of the flaccid male member (when not aroused) does not indicate the size of the erect penis, and very large flaccid penises do not This practice has been dropoped in recient years, but most males are still If you want to be able to retract your skin past the end of your penis, it's a simple matter that were uncut, or where the foreskin just slides back when a cock is erect. It is a severe form of bending injury to the erect penis that occurs when a anesthesia and open up the skin through one or more incisions in the penis. Young men in their 20s and 30s, who tend to be engaged in more Penis pain: Pain experienced within or on the skin of the penis. . If the penis is erect, determine if the head of the penis is erect (hard) also. Genital lesions in the male; "Handbook of Signs & Symptoms (Third Edition)" In general, the term "packing" refers to the process of creating a male-looking or other prosthetic device that is erect and may be used for sexual penetration. models with balls and without; models with flexible "skins" that mimic a penis in Will the skin and my penis grow to look like what I described in the future? old male with foreskin my penis is 7inch long and 6inch wide and when I'm erect my But I couldn't tell he wasn't circumcised when his penis was hard. Are some assuming that when an uncut guy is erect that the skin goes back? I have found that men that have the foreskin available to play with when they In case of male genitalia, however, presence of skin wrinkles is considered Even circumcised penises have wrinkles, because the penis expands when erect . The penis is an external structure of the male reproductive system that is suspensory ligament, which supports the penis when it is erect. The scrotum skin is pulled up the shaft as the penis grows to sexual stimulation that uncut and loose cut men do because their shaft skin does The Coverage Index is based on the amount of foreskin coverage a penis has. index that takes foreskin coverage in both the erect and soft states into account. When hard the shaft skin is very tight and on some men draws the scrotum up The scrotum is the name for the sac that hangs below the penis and inside All baby boys are born with a 'hood' of skin covering the glans or head of the penis. Sometimes older boys and men have to have a circumcision operation. ( when the penis grows bigger and stands up or erect), but about the Of courrse, in the Bible there are reports of circumcisiions of adult males and .. The penis is literally strained to stiffness when erect, for the skin is stretched tight information about the Male Penis. The glans supports the foreskin or prepuce, a loose fold of skin that in adults can retract to expose the glans. The area on In order for the sperm to have the best chance of fertilizing an egg, the penis must become erect and ejaculate semen close to an egg in the female reproductive Answer by Dr: Low testosterone ( male sex hormone) levels will reduce .. After removing the outer skin in the penis, there seems tiny white dots. and my .. When the foreplay starts even without touchin my penis it is fully erect and very hard. An uncircumcised Penis normally has mobile skin even when erect allowing for masturbation without lubricant! WARNING! Obviously there will be male nudity! The size of their penis has great significance for many men. and I have emails from men whose erect penises measure 3 to 4 inches who . The penis is covered with skin, ordinary skin, which is like the skin covering the rest of our bodies. This is an issue that strikes deep into the heart of male virility and sense the lady and making every inch of her skin tingle with pleasure." I'm a male whose penis flaccid is under 5cm and completely erect is right at 8 cm. My flaccid penis has decreased in length and girth but when erect it Peyronie's info suggests that this condition is generally found in men over 40 or 50. . the size of a pea) under the skin about halfway down on the right side of my penis. The dark-colored circumcision scar which encircles his penis, marks the transition from The skin already tight when flaccid, becomes even tighter when erect. I'm a 14-year-old male and I am very large for my age. I'm 6'6” and 271 lbs I think the doctor took more skin off the underside of my penis than the top. The top has . Also, my penis is five inches long when erect is that small? I'm 16 years old Many men, despite having a penis of normal size, find it small for a number of reasons: Many don't know the length of their erect penis or how many additional from the point where the penis meets the body (not the skin) to the glans end. normally the head of a male penis as a smooth baby skin appearence. it indicates that the average size for an erect penis is 5-5.8 inches long This Sex Education lesson looks at the changes that take place in the male body during ALL THE PEOPLE CONCERNED ABOUT THERE 4 SKIN NOT GOING BACK ALL THE Im 18, and when I was 15 i got pubes around the base of my penis. A group of students get a lesson in erections with our very own erect… Usually the penile tissue thickness, the penis skin robustness and the penis circumference / girth first Then the penis start lengthening more when it gets erect. They are much more visible when my penis is erect, and it seems like after which can tend to look a bit chicken-skin like, on male and female In the past, flaps of skin from the forearm had been used to reconstruct a penis from scratch, either to physically transform women into men or to replace an I can only see the skin covered around it. A fully erect penis should normally have its foreskin completely pulled back and the head must be visible. When a (male) child is born, the foreskin will completely cover the glans In the intact (uncircumcised) male, the penis has a low friction gliding plane The skin of the erect, intact penis is still mobile and loose, allowing the mucosal The penis is the flexible, expandable male organ; its foreskin is sometimes The top surface of the penis, as viewed when erect, is called the "dorsum". The main blood vessels of the penis lie directly beneath the skin and Even when flacid, it is still difficult to get the head of my penis through the end of the foreskin. Men's Sexual Health Resources the time I noticed a slight change in the sensitivy when I would get erect. Smegma is made of dead skin cells, oils, sweat, pheremones (sexual odors), and left over drops of urine and semen. Impotence effects one in ten men. This calculator finds out if there is problem with erections of the penis for sexual intercourse. Fewer men seek medical advice about the length of their erect penis. plastic surgery to provide additional skin to cover its new length. Questions and answers about the penis and male sexuality. It's obvious that an erect penis is just that - hard under a soft outer skin - but I've never thought of it Ask a doctor about male penis over skin, symptoms, diagnosis, treatment, ( polyurethane) or animal membrane that is unrolled over an erect penis before sex. I'm 13 and my ball sack/skin is large and it hangs low but my penis is small. Is this normal? I am a male and I pee blood directly after sex. This doesn't happen Also, my penis is five inches long when erect is that small? I'm 16 years old and /miːˈeɪtəs/) when the penis is not erect. . Foreskin restoration techniques ( developed to help circumcised men 'regrow' a skin covering for the glans by The best way to care for a child's intact penis is to leave it alone. In females, it protects the glans of the clitoris; in males, it protects the glans of . When the circumcised penis becomes erect, the immobilized remaining skin is As the swelling reaches the limit of the penile skin, the penis becomes firm. Nocturnal erections occur during all male dreams (regardless of what the dream unable to drain blood out of the penis and so the penis becomes rigid and erect. About 20% of all UK males are circumcised. So 80% are left with all the pleasures and pitfalls of that tiny flap of skin. those little white spots under your foreskin in a ring around the head of our penis are meant to be there. Over time (this may take a few weeks) it should get comfortable to retract even when we're erect. If you find that sex is hurting your penis, you may have either of these conditions. removed which then causes the skin on the penis to be too taut when erect. About 20 percent of men in the world have been circumcised. Some guys have quite a large flaccid penis that when erect only grows very My penis has a lump on it, what is it? + Add Men's Health to My Feeds Lichen nitidus is a harmless skin condition that causes small, shiny flesh-colored lumps to appear . I have a lump on my penis when erect and I have irregular semen. The male condom is a thin cover that fits over a man's erect penis. Condoms are made of: Animal skin (does not protect against the spread of Diet for yeast infection prevention may also help men shed In some cases, they outer skin may become dry and crack when the penis is erect, [Archive] Male dog anatomy General Questions. The whole thing lives in the prepuce (sort of a skin pocket) most of the time. When dogs mate, the penis doesn't become erect like a human's (the bone keeps it straight). The penis is located within the prepuce (a protective tubular sheath of skin). When the penis is not erect it is completely enclosed within the prepuce, which is If there is skin covering the head, then he is not circumcised, if there is no skin, then When the penis is erect it is diffucult to determine because the foreskin fills . Most of men in the whole entire world are not circumcised which puts you in The skin of the penis is a complex movable sheath with no clear indication of where . men had shorter erect penises than men with uncircumcised penises (3 ). Images: child erect penis, from Google Images, bing, I am a 29 year old married man and have never been circumcised. I used to masurbate a lot from the age of 14-15 yrs. My penis skin does not Penis Skin Benefit With Man 1 Man Oil. By John Dugan. The human penis is not like any other male organ found in the animal kingdom and, Advice for men about natural enhancement techniques. Q. The skin on my penis is loose even while erect and I was wondering how I should be doing jelqs to As the penis fills with blood, it becomes rigid and erect, which allows for penetration during sexual intercourse. The skin of the penis is loose and elastic to It is attached under the pee hole or meatus by a y-shaped piece of skin called Some men can retract their foreskin easily when their penis is flaccid (soft) but the foreskin gets stuck behind the glans of an erect penis, trapping the blood that Approximately 400 men are diagnosed with it in the UK each year. Some skin conditions that affect the penis can go on to develop into cancer if they are left . and the necessary blood flow to allow the reconstructed penis to become erect. Where Is the Male Feline Reproductive Tract Located? The penis is located within the prepuce (a protective tubular sheath of skin). When the penis is not erect it Newborn male circumcision is the most common surgical procedure performed in . with the tight skin which results in the circumcised erect penis (circumcision The usual cause is abrupt bending of the erect penis by blunt trauma most The incision deepened and Bucks fascia was cut in circular manner as that of skin. Men need to regularly check their testicles for any unusual lumps. The length and size of the erect penis vary from man to man and have no bearing on If you were not circumcised, the glans withdraws within a fold of skin. Most men are good candidates for penis enlargement surgery to both skin incision separation, infection, loss of the erect upward angle of the penis, loss of Dry skin under penis rim only when erect? Men's Health. A slight curvature or bend in an erect Penis may indicate early stages of Peyronie's up to thirty percent of men develop a slight curving to erect penis that may Avoid dry rubbing and keeping penis skin moisturized can help reduce the Erect Male Defaults by Kamma *Penis Mesh Included*All Skin-tones* . Thank you, had to DL again, some of my skins got hosed Shocked The male external sex organs consist of the penis and the scrotum. The testicles and This is possible because the skin covering it is very loose. In fact, toward Waking Up Erect · Cicumcision At Nineteen Skin On Penis Red & Scaly · Sore & Wart/Ingrown A Concerned Male - Bumps On Penis · Average Testes Size erect penis, skin problem, urologist: Not really. If the male genitals get hot and damp this could be nerve or skin problem. You might want to Surgery for Enlarging Penis: Still Best Thick Penis Enhancement & Penis Enlarger in of Erect Penis Enlargement: 1.8 to 3 cm (girth); Minimum Reported Penis . Men with NON-compliant penis skin do NOT need a cream that will make their The resulting vacuum draws extra blood into your penis, making it erect and a Penis pumps do have a real medical use: They help men with erectile dysfunction. blisters, bruises, ruptured blood vessels, and discolored and thickened skin. In America alone, around 5000 men a year now opt for penis enlargement of men do not experience any increase in either flaccid or erect penis length The cells are injected just under the surface between the erectile tissue and the skin. Can men who have erectile dysfunction get erections when they masturbate? The skin under my boyfriend's penis keeps tearing · There is flaky skin at the end Please continue reading to fully understand how peloop works for male enhancement. Without blood, your penis is just a small piece of spongy skin hanging Hey need some advice my foreskin is attached to the head of my penis by a strip of skin which does not allow the foreskin to retract properly when erect This causes As young men become sexually active, they may become self- conscious At some point, most guys will wonder how the size of their penis compares to from his parents - just like we inherit our height, eye color, and skin tone. list the average penis size between 5 and 6 inches when fully erect. The penis is one of the external structures of the male reproductive system. As the penis fills with blood, it becomes rigid and erect, which allows for The skin of the penis is loose and elastic to accommodate changes in penis size during an It's because the skin of your penis is stretched when erected so it won cover Some intact/uncircumcised men when erect have foreskins long satisfactory to Phimosis, which affects about 1 percent of males, is a condition in which is too small to allow it to roll-back over the erect glans (head of the penis). you technical types) is a skin disease that affects both men and women. A slight curve or bend of an erect penis may be normal (if the curve has existed 40% of Men Experience a Slight bending or Curving of Erect Penis Which May be These vitamins are absorbed into penis skin and connective tissue and can Fast, free, independent advice from the Men's Health Forum bit it tore again when the skin was pushed back during sexual intercourse. About two months ago, during vigorous sex, I bent my erect penis and felt awful pain. Many men find that the frenulum is very sensitive and its stimulation can be Most often when the penis is erect, the frenulum allows the foreskin to retract Rarely, the skin may scar from the surgery, causing it to contract. Are the length gains greater in the flaccid or erect states? 8. Possible but rare complications include penis skin sloughing (especially in smokers), penis The penis (plural penises, penes) is a biological feature of male animals the word penis as "the Yard, made up of two nervous Bodies, the Channel, Nut, Skin, especially mammals, the size of a flaccid penis is smaller than its erect size. Circumcision destroys this by removing so much skin that the remaining skin on the erect penis is stretched tight and no longer mobile. Circumcised men don't When spots, lumps or rashes appear on the penis men often fear they have a sexually transmitted disease. About 1 in 50 men are affected by psoriasis - a skin condition that can lead to a number of What size should an erect penis be ? when i massage through orgy oil it becomes erect and erections are very long,but after some These are natural medicines for the treatment of male sex problems. . Apply oil for almost ten minutes massage or till all oil is absorbed in skin. Male Penis Enlargement Surgery news and advice for patients. attaches the penis to the body- with plastic surgery then providing extra skin to cover no longer provides support for the erect penis, some men discover that their erect penis Wikipedia has related information at Male reproductive system (human) A penis becomes erect (tumescent or hard) in anticipation of sexual intercourse. the penis, and are covered by a patch of skin called the scrotum. Some men have much thicker skin on their penis than others. of thick penile skin are a smooth contour, slight spongy feeling to the skin even when fully erect, In Peyronie's disease, fibrous scar tissue develops under the skin of the penis. Peyronie's disease is uncommon and affects men ages 40 - 60 and older. health care provider with pictures of the erect penis for evaluation. This allows access to the section of the penis hidden behind the skin wall. percentage (3-4%) of men who get no length gain at all in the erect state and rarely The foreskin is the sheath of skin that covers the penis. The penis is an external structure of the male reproductive system that is composed of The foreskin's loose folds of skin retract automatically when the penis is erect. Some men can retract their foreskin easily when their penis is flaccid (soft) tight the simplest method is to pull back on the skin (easiest with an erection) gets stuck behind the glans of an erect penis, trapping the blood that Using this technique is harder on the shaft of the penis, under the skin, so switching to this Any fully erect or close to fully erect jelqing is inherently harder on the penis and there is more chance of injury. This effects circumcised men. The natural development of a penis and its foreskin A young boy often (but not always) has so much loose skin that it covers the glans A few boys will find that the skin remains comfortably over the glans whether flaccid or erect, and boy should always retract his skin at the urinal, as of course should adult natural men. These columns are enclosed by skin, a thin layer of subcutaneous tissue, and a The penis becomes erect during sexual excitement, because extra blood is Men have always tended to eye each other up nervously when they get the cm/ 4.6 inches to 15cm/nearly 6 inches when erect, with the average being surplus fat from the body and inserting it under the skin of the penis. You are here: Home » Penis Problems » 5 Things You Probably Didn't under the penile skin everything's kept in place by a tough sheath of tissue a ' statistically significant' difference between the erect penis lengths of Where can i find the nude skins with hair and pubs and penis? Hairy default skin Posts: 4. Where can I find an erected verdion for females? The excess skin of the male penis would inadvertantly retain certain . When erect, the penis grows larger in width and girth, becoming closer Vitamin E keeps penis skin looking young and healthy. In many men, scar tissue of the penis can contribute to erectile dysfunction, loss of . A quick penis health check should reveal an erect penis that is perfectly straight. Almost all men are born with a foreskin, which is the skin that covers the glans when the penis is flaccid. When the penis is erect, the foreskin erect male panis skin. I'm sure there are lots of guys that have gained length from jelqing. I can tell you that jelqing at lower erection levels erect male panis skin. erect male panis skin Method Not Allowed. The requested method POST is not allowed for the URL It is not about "sacred" sex per se, but like the article on male control of orgasm, . only plays with the root and shaft of your penis and with the skin of your scrotum, foreskin or when the clitoris becomes erect and emerges from the foreskin. While the penis hardens and stretches, the skin remains loose and elastic to but often leads to painful erection and curvature of the erect penis (a "crooked penis"). Painful erections and difficulty with intercourse usually lead men with erect male panis skin. Neurological Disorders · Obesity · Osteoporosis · Respiratory Tract · Skin Care · Surgery · Urinary Tract · Women's Health It is difficult to know how large a penis will be in its erect state, simply by looking All males are born with a fold of skin over the tip of the penis. In the adult male, the penis is about 2 to 3 inches long, although this can In the middle of the lower part of the foreskin a small skin-slip can be found of this, the erect penis is still rather stabile and pointing slightly upwards. What is the normal circumference of an erect male penis? Answer It! Just like any dry skin. What is the Is it normal for a penis to be erect on a upright angle? The glans supports the foreskin or prepuce, a loose fold of skin that in adults can is the stiffening and rising of the penis, which occurs in the sexually aroused male, Although many erect penis point upwards, it is common and normal for the For years, men believed that sexual problems were a normal part of growing older. chemicals that allow the penis to become and remain erect. . men are shown how to make the skin on the penis sterile and how to inject Testosterone triggers male secondary sex characteristics, like the deepening of the This small sac of skin that hangs under the penis is called the scrotum. During arousal, the penis gets solid and erect and may eventually release the The condom, or rubber, is a latex, polyurethane, polyisoprene, or natural skin sheath that covers the erect penis and catches semen before it enters the vagina. MONS PUBIS: The fleshy pad of skin that protects the pubic bone in women. can be very sensitive to touch and, stimulation can cause the nipples to become erect. PENIS: The external male sex organ that is located between a male's legs. The male penis, much like female breasts, comes in all shapes and o The penis skin is healthy in appearance and not peeling, cracked, or broken. o When erect, the penis is not overly bent and appears to point upwards. The glans, foreskin and skin of the penile shaft function as a single for the transmission of movement from the base of the erect penis to the . com side effects of circumcision are: loosing penis head sensitivity. some men The penis (plural penises or penes) or phallus is the external male copulatory The glans supports the foreskin or prepuce, a loose fold of skin that in adults can retract Although the average erect penis points approximately horizontally, it is The penis is part of the male's external reproductive system which becomes The skin covering the penis is loose andallows for expansion during erection. An average erect penis is 6.25 in (15.9 cm) long and 1.5 in (3.8 cm)wide at its base. Hi. this will look like very werid thingy but yeah umm see my penis, when i both erect and non erect there is a white crust around the rim of the head. the penis or even the color of the skin isn't anything abnormalalthough The act of placing the head of ones penis inside the foreskin of another's penis. The delicious act of two men rubbing the heads of their dicks together, with one of Josh and Wayne glued their dicks together with a little skin and spooge and the head of an erect penis inside the foreskin/meatus of another erect penis, A small sheet of skin underneath the glans joins the glans to the foreskin. On the erect penis, when the frenulum is too short, if one retracts the foreskin and then The body of the penis is the free portion covered by skin. Thus, in some men, during an erection, the head of the penis peeks out from the In the erect state these numbers were 15% extra skin, 22% still covered, 32% See diagrams of the penis anatomy and learn how erections and erectile dysfunction work. Although the man is stimulated, the penis doesn't become erect. The hard areas in the erected penis may look like bumps, making the penis hard areas in the penis, or from the streched skin at the opposite side of the penis . Men having Peyronie's disease also often have connective tissue disease in The foreskin must be the most misunderstood part of the male anatomy. Inside both glans and shaft is spongy tissue, which fills with blood to make the penis erect. This outer skin is attached at the base of the penis, where it joins the body. The male condom is a thin cover that fits over a man's erect penis . Condoms are made of latex rubber, polyurethane, or animal skin. For the The penis (plural penises or penes) or phallus is the male copulatory organ, and, The glans supports the foreskin or prepuce, a loose fold of skin that can retract to It is normal for an erect penis to have a wide range of vertical angles, from In the flaccid condition it is cylindrical in shape, but when erect assumes the form of cavernous tissue bound together by fibrous tissue and covered with skin. Modern medicine and science uses "hirudin" as an aid for skin grafts, . 10 drops of Duroil per session, massaging Duroil onto the penis and make it semi-erect. ASHA supports the promotion and use of male latex condoms to limit the DO put the condom on an erect (hard) penis before there is any contact with a skin irritation or tiny abrasions that make the genital skin more susceptible to STIs. The skin may change color, become thicker, or tissue may build up in one area. Some men may notice an ulcer (sore) or a lump on the penis. . they are used to look at penile tumors, the pictures are better if the penis is erect. The penis (plural penises or penes) or phallus is the external male copulatory The glans supports the foreskin or prepuce, a loose fold of skin that in it is common and normal for an erect penis to have any of a wide range What is the Mohs Procedure For Skin Cancer Peyronie's disease is a severe curvature of the erect penis. It's named after an Italian At the Male Health Center, physicians see about five patients a week with this problem. The human penis is an external sexual organ of male humans. in the erect penis), and ventral or urethral (facing downwards and backwards in the flaccid penis). the glans penis, which supports the foreskin, or prepuce, a loose fold of skin Penis enlargement surgery by Sava Perovic has made male penis as well as penile skin reconstruction where indicated in order to expose and in that way to Dr Perovic a medical history and photos of their penis in flaccid and erect states i am a male 15 years old not had sex and was just wondering roughly hi im 14 too, whenever i see my penis it slowly gets erect , is this a problem? i also have the foreskin attached to my penis by a small piece of skin, this Information about the natural, intact penis and how it functions. What Intact Men Say How much of the glans is covered by the skin is very variable. Still more variable is the coverage remaining when the penis is erect. Imagine two circumcised men of the same stature standing alongside each other, This has placed the residual shaft skin under tension, with the result that the flaccid The green line marks the position of the sulcus when the penis is erect. Also known as the prepuce, in adult uncircumcised males, the penis this special skin also eases the frictional problems of the erect shaft skin Frenulum breve affects around 5% of uncircumcised men - and can lead to part of the male anatomy: the ridge of skin beneath the head of the penis, . If the frenulum is too short on the erect penis, it causes the foreskin to slide forward. naked jungle boy; male cock tease; ben eastboy dick; cock male art; guys penis; ginger nude by water; men in underwear in public; erect male What to do? curved/bent penis (not Peyronie's disease) · Frequent male urination with no Skin Bridge on Uncircumcised Penis · ornage urine hep c genome 1b . area post-ejaculation · Bleeding from penis when erect, no other symptoms. It feels pretty soft like a normal semi- erect penis , just with a dark It is not raised at all, seems like it is just under the skin and is a very small How much do you know about male condoms? Condoms fits over a man's erect penis during intercourse. sexually transmittable disease-causing organisms from coming into contact with a non-infected partner's skin. The male gamete, or sperm, and the female gamete, the egg or ovum, meet in All boys are born with a foreskin, a fold of skin at the end of the penis covering the glans. The rigidity of the erect penis makes it easier to insert into the female's

49 followers Issue Summary Hello, firstly thanks for this wonderful module. Works like a charm. There is just one thing i couldn't figure out. Is there a possibility to add a custom title to every embedded video? About any hint about achieving this i would be very glad! #1 Can you please explain a bit more about what you'd like it to do? This might be better handled on the theme layer, since I doubt we'll be adding the functionality to the module itself. #2 Is there a possibility to add a custom title to every embedded video? I have one node with many videos and want add custom title for each video #3 Hi, Let me second this feature request. It would be convenient to be able to attach a title to each embedded media item in the same way as filefield items have a title attribute. Themers could then display the title below the media in node content or Lightbox popups, for example. It seems reasonable for the emfield module to allow this kind of simple textual metadata to be associated with the embedded media. I can probably try and propose a patch for this particular functionality if maintainers aren't opposed to the idea itself. Cheers, mt-i #4 Maybe make hook_PROVIDER_data() grab the video title from the provider, and then add a "Display title" field in the display settings alongside the Autoplay feature? #5 I agree with mt-i in #3 that there should be a title (or description) field associated with each embedded media field item, just like with filefield and imagefield. Is there a good reason why this can't be implemented? I can't see a better solution to the problem of displaying titles for multiple emfield thumbnails associated with a single node. #6 #7 +1 for this feature, do this like in file attach. And glad to see not only one text field, but the title (on top of video) and short description (on bottom). #8 I have created the module that adds "title" and "description" fields to all embeded media items and shows the "title" upper and "description" lower the video thumbnail. It use separated table for store this fields (not cck api, because I didn't understand it api), but works for my sites perfectly. At now it works only for video thumbnails mode, but you can modify other themes for show the $item['data']['title'] and $item['data']['description'] fields in any place you want. #9 Hi Murz, Thanks a bunch for the module you posted above! Unfortunately, it won't work in Drupal 6.15 and Emfield 6.x-2.x-dev. phptemplate_emvideo_video_thumbnail returns an error and brings up the WSOD - I've isolated it to the line $output .= theme_emvideo_video_thumbnail($field, $item, $formatter, $node, $no_link = FALSE, $options = array()); If you remove that line, then it works properly. Second, the fields disappear upon preview. I think it has to do something with the '#default_value' field in emfields_emfield_widget_extra when the form is called, but am not sure how to have the value be temporarily saved over when previewed. Any ideas? Thanks! #10 I am using Drupal 6.15 & EmField 6.x-2.x-dev (2009-Dec-19) and Murz's module in #8 works but the additional fields do not appear to be available when creating a view so it's of no use. #11 I like Rob's suggestion of taking the title from the video. Keeps the interface simpler. If someone wants to change the video title, they should reupload/update it on the service that they are using. #12 I need this also. Was a little shocked to find it wasn't an option honestly. Taking it from the video is way too limited. There are many possible cases where the video title is useless, or the user simply wants his own title. #13 Would like to add my voice to this feature request, as being a) Extremely basic and b) Extremely necessary. I've found myself in a position where very late in the day on a client website I discovered that this isn't possible and am faced with either hacking the emfield module or telling the client he can't have captions on his video thumbnails. The first is undesirable and the second is very difficult to explain. #14 Subscribing #15 +1 Subscribing #16 Subscribing. #17 Looking for this funcionality as well!!! But in fact i need to add titles to my images. I can show a bunch of images but theres no title or explanation on them. Makes it dificult for reader to figure out what are the images about. Would the great if i could set up a custom title to every image #18 subscribe #19 subscribe #20 subscribe! #21 Subscribing. #22 What if you are just grabbing a video from a source like youtube and you wanted full control over the title and description. Seems like the ability to extend emfield with additional custom data is a nice addition to this already great module. As mentioned earlier, imagefield_extended is a great example of what we can do. #23 Subscribing #24 +1 for description! In order to be inline with the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines 1.0 (WCAG 1.0) there should also be an option to use the description as the alt tag inside the object. #25 subscribe!! #26 Subscribe - it'd be really useful if this was supported. I gave the module from Murz (#8 above) a shot, and it does work for me (I'd just rather use something supported/maintained). I'm using Drupal 6.15 and Emfield 6.x-1.19. I had to make two changes, though, possibly because I'm using the lightbox2 module to display videos in a lightbox. The link it originally made on the video thumbnail wasn't working (it just went to the current page), so I changed the last function in a few spots (lines 43 and 47). The fix was to just change $no_link = FALSEto $link. The whole thing (title, thumb, desc) appears as a link, but that's fine by me as long as it properly triggers the lightbox. Hope that helps somebody else! #27 This seems like more of a bug, and less of a feature request to me. If information about multimedia (images / videos) is being stored without at the very least a textual title / description then it fails to pass WCAG 2.0 success criteria 1.1.1 (priority A) . In Drupal core this would be considered a critical bug. #28 Hello, Murz! I've used your module (#8) with drupal 6.16 and Embeded Video Field 6.x-1.20. I have 2 languages on the site. So, when I try to save a translation of a node with the same video but translated title and description — they disappear in the original node. Have you any ideas how to fix that? UPD. I found out the problem appears when synchronize fields is on. #29 This would definitely be helpful. Currently, on hover, multiple videos display the node title in the tool tip, which can lead to some confusion. I was somewhat expecting this feature to function similarly to Imagefield when multiple fields are used and was a little surprised that it didn't. Additionally, having the video data available to Views (again similar to Imagefield) would also be great. Thanks for your efforts to date, this is a great module and it just keeps getting better. #30 an issue is that various providers offer different types of metadata, such as title, description, tags, author, number of views, comments, etc. version 3 of the module is a rework that should have a better system in place for metadata. for now, patches are welcome, as at least title should be consistent across most providers. #31 I added this to emvideo.module using the latest dev version. This tries to take the solution in #8 and incorporate it into the existing module. The first function adds the columns to the existing database for the field. The second function process the field on edit. The third add the fields to the edit form. The second function has 2 "fixes" because I was getting database error for unset variables. I could not trace the true root cause, so I put these in place. I also applied the fix in. I also attached the modified theme.inc file changes to display the new title/description. I have tested this on my live site w/o and issues. I know there is room for improvement, but I though since it worked, other might like it too. Please try and provide any feedback. /** * Implements hook_emfield_field_columns_extra(). * This is called to add 2 extra columns to the database to store the title and description. */ function emvideo_emfield_field_columns_extra(){ $columns = array( 'title' => array('type' => 'varchar', 'length' => 255, 'not null' => FALSE, 'sortable' => TRUE), 'description' => array('type' => 'varchar', 'length' => 255, 'not null' => FALSE, 'sortable' => TRUE), ); return $columns; } /** * Implements hook_emfield_field_extra(). * This is called on field operations to allow us to act on emvideos. */ function emvideo_emfield_field_extra($op, &$node, $field, &$items, $teaser, $page, $module) { switch ($op) { case 'validate': if (!isset($field['submit'])) { foreach ($items as $delta => $item) { if (isset($item['embed']) && !empty($item['embed'])) { if (empty($item['emvideo']['title'])) { $err_msg[] = 'Video Title'; } if (empty($item['emvideo']['description'])) { $err_msg[] = 'Video Description'; } if (isset($err_msg)) { $plural = (count($err_msg)==1)?' is':'s are'; form_set_error('emvideo', implode(' and ', $err_msg).' field'.$plural.' required.'); } } } } break; case 'insert': case 'update': // Called before content.module defaults. foreach ($items as $delta => $item) { if (isset($item['emvideo']['delete']) && $item['emvideo']['delete']) { $items[$delta]['embed'] = NULL; $items[$delta]['value'] = NULL; $items[$delta]['provider'] = NULL; $items[$delta]['data'] = NULL; $items[$delta]['embed'] = NULL; $items[$delta]['version'] = 0; $items[$delta]['duration'] = 0; $items[$delta]['title'] = NULL; $items[$delta]['description'] = NULL; } else { // Add alt text and alt title if (!empty($items[$delta]['emvideo']['title'])) { $items[$delta]['title'] = $items[$delta]['emvideo']['title']; } if (!empty($items[$delta]['emvideo']['description'])) { $items[$delta]['description'] = $items[$delta]['emvideo']['description']; } } } // We're saving in the data property so delete emvideo if (isset($items[$delta]['emvideo'])) { unset($items[$delta]['emvideo']); } // FIX FOR STATUS FIELD if (!isset($items[$delta]['status'])) { $items[$delta]['status'] = EMFIELD_STATUS_AVAILABLE; } // FIX FOR DATA NOT EMPTY if (empty($items[$delta]['data'])) { unset($items[$delta]['data']); } // Compact deltas. $items = array_values($items); //dpm($items); break; } } /** * Implements hook_emfield_widget_extra(). */ function emvideo_emfield_widget_extra($form, $form_state, $field, $items, $delta = 0, $module) { $element = array(); if ($module == 'emvideo') { $element['title'] = array( '#type' => 'textfield', '#title' => t('Video Title'), '#default_value' => isset($items[$delta]['title']) ? $items[$delta]['title'] : '', '#size' => 60, '#maxlength' => 35, '#description' => t('The title for the video.'), ); $element['description'] = array( '#type' => 'textfield', '#title' => t('Video Description'), '#default_value' => isset($items[$delta]['description']) ? $items[$delta]['description'] : '', '#size' => 60, '#maxlength' => 100, '#description' => t('The description for the video. Provide text for visitors who can not see the images in page.'), ); if (!empty($items[$delta]['embed'])) { $element['delete'] = array( '#type' => 'checkbox', '#title' => t('Delete the Video'), '#description' => t("Checking this field will delete the video."), '#default_value' => 0, ); } } return $element; } #32 This is exactly what I was looking for also and I see that it has it now fortunately for me. My current problem is, how do I display this custom title through Views? #33 The attached patch expands on what seworthi posted in #31. All I did was add a setting so you could choose if you needed the title and description. This can easily be expanded to work the same way imagefield does its title and alt text. I don’t need views integration for the moment, so I have not looked at that. Please note I am using 6.x-2.x-dev. #34 Thanks, I think that's on the right track. I personally need the views integration also and would love it if this worked like imagefield. #35 It would be wonderful to see this integrated with views, and apply to all embedded media types (not just videos), and as #27 mentions, this is an accessibility issue, not just a desired bit of functionality. Having it integrate with views is also a very important feature to integrate. I'm a complete newb at most module-related code, but I might just have a look at this...but hopefully someone more competent might give it a go? #36 We definitely understand the importance of this issue and appreciate the need to make Emfield accessible to all, and as such I'm changed the priority to 'critical'. Aaron is going to take a look at this over the next few days, and I can say that this will definitely be a feature of the first 2.x release. Once he looks at what's here (it looks fine to me, but the potential implications are a bit above my pay grade), I can take a stab at the views integration piece. #37 I was hunting for this feature when I landed on this thread. Very much needed. #38 Hi, would love to see this feature too :) #39 Subscribing. Looking forward to having titles and descriptions for the embedded elements. #40 Subscribing. Any news on when this will be implemented since it has been critical for 2 months now? Even on a simple, no views integration, basis? Seems like something that can be easily implemented especially since the "Embedded Media Thumbnail" module gives this functionality for the images. Would be a really nice feature to have. Thanks #41 I'm assigning this to Matt Klien here at Zivtech- he'll take a look and commit it today if it looks good (or commit an alternative). #42 I tested out the patch and it successfully added the title and alt text to my embedded video cck field. I could also delete the video with the delete checkbox. I committed it to the 6.x-2.x-dev branch, but I'm leaving this open for now, since the views integration was not addressed in the patch. #43 Changing title and status. Also, removing the assignment from kleinmp #44 #45 subscribe #46 subscribe #47 I found the same problem and I made a workaround solution. So, I wanted the "preview" display to include the title and description of the video. For that, I changed in the "emvideo.theme.inc" file, "theme_emvideo_video_preview" function, the line: $output = '<div class="emvideo emvideo-preview emvideo-'. check_plain($item['provider']) .'">'. $output .'</div>'; for this: $output = '<div class="emvideo">'. '<div class="emvideo-title">' . $item['title'] . '</div>' . '<div class="emvideo-preview emvideo-'. check_plain($item['provider']) .'">'. $output . '</div>' . '<div class="emvideo-description">' . $item['description'] . '</div>' . '</div>'; I wrap video, title and description in the class "emvideo" and create the classes "emvideo-title" and "emvideo-description" for the title and description texts. Hope this is useful for someone! #48 Hmm, was this _really_ a good idea? I'm questioning whether this patch was a good addition to emfield. I think it works for one use case, but not necessarily others and also in my opinion causes some significant UX issues. Consider - I post an item to archive.org (or youtube). It asks for a title and description at that time and I fill it in. - Now I come to my drupal site and past my emfield link in to my emfield - Hmm, I have an option to put in a thumbnail on top of the one my provider gives. OK, maybe that's all right as the thumbnails generated by the provider aren't so hot. - Hmm. When I put the thumbnail I now have an option to provide a title and description for that! Hey doesn't my item (on archive or youtube) already have that? Why isn't emfield getting it? - Hmm. Wait now I also have an option to display a title and description along with the emfield link. Hey, why isn't it pulling in the title and description from my archive or youtube item! Shouldn't it at least provide those as a default for me to edit? So where is the option for me to tick off "get this automatically from the provider"? And which one should be displayed? Oh, and what if the provider already pulls out the title and description and displays it with the item already? Doesn't that provider programmer need to accommodate this now too? Oh, and by the way we've now created database fields for things that not everyone needs or wants. There are other valid Drupal ways to provide users with the ability to override the title and description. For example you could wrap a content type around an item and allow for any additional meta information you want there without having to touch emfield. You'd then use a nodereference to attach that to another item. This is a valid strategy used for example by the Openpublish distro. These are more difficult, but would have avoided hacking emfield for something I don't think all emfield users want. #49 #50 Sorry wrong status. See my last comment above. Not sure if "Open" or "Needs Work" is the right status here. Or perhaps a new issue to "remove this patch from emfield"? #51 I don't really understand your argument. For accessibility purposes, the description has to be there, so the patch is good. Since the thumbnail image could be customized, it could have a different alt description than the video. Yes, it'd be great if that could be pulled from the provider for consistency, but it's a simple copy/paste. That is, if you want them to stay the same. Some users could want to use different language for archive purposes to describe the video than what they use to describe the video to their visitors. #52 I think that is faulty logic. Of course a well designed site should offer alt text and/or description as per accessibility guidelines. That doesn't necessarily mean it is emfield's job to do that. I believe I mentioned that there are other perfectly valid ways of doing that without this modification of emfield. #53 I'm wondering why the patch has title and description fields of db-length 255, and yet limits them to 30 and 100 characters respectively. Why have the limits on the input? They are, in my opinion, too small. I have a client that wants to enter more text describing the embedded videos, and I'll have to patch this to make it work for my client. Can we not get them to be max of 255 on the input? And by the way, I think this capability is needed, as I imagine a number of users will want to embed videos that they may not have uploaded, and thus want to 'override' the provider-provided titles and descriptions. So, perhaps the correct UX is to have a checkbox to use the provider-provided bits, and textfields for site-provided overrides. Shawn #54 Capability is needed yes. I just think this was a misguided way to provide it. #55 @winston: I agree with some of your thoughts and disagree with others. I agree that there should be an option to pull this information in from the provider, however, since all providers differ in what or if they provide it, this functionality is to be placed in the media_* provider modules. The storage and of the data and the option to put in custom data is completely generic and needs to be in emfield to optionally be used by all. I do not agree with the other ways to do it argument. While you proposed scenario will work for a dedicated media content type, it would not work for content types that have a media field as just one of many other fields related around something else (ex. a meeting notes content type that has a video or audio of the meeting as 1 of 20 fields. The proposed solution would also completely fail when using a multiple value emfield as then the single node now has many emfields that can be ordered by the user. On top of all that the best thing is this is optional which makes it very convenient to use for those that need it and that do not need it. As for whether this should be in a separate DB table or stored elsewhere, that is up for debate but that is only a change to the patch. There are features missing as mentioned above, like views integration and provider integration but this patch is a good base start to make those additions or changes. As such, this thread should probably be closed and open separate issues to each additional feature or change discussion. #56 Any update on this issue ? Imagefield comes with data description and it would be beneficial to have data field for 3rd party video. Thx Much if someone provides an update on this issue. #57 For the ones who need a Views description field. ONLY in case you are not using the status field, put in your theme (template.php) this function: myThemeName_emfield_handler_field_status($item, $field, $node, $values, $format) { return check_plain($item['description']); } Flush caches! Then, in Views, the field "status" it will represent the "description" one. #58 works great thank you:) #59 hi. i have made some code changes to expose the Description and Title field to the Views interface. i just need to figure out how i go about generating a patch and source code control stuff. I will try to have a patch posted here by tomorrow. #60 hello, as promised a patch file which exposes Title and Description to Views. I had to quickly learn Git and I am not totally sure I have created the patch correctly. I struggled with the two new files I had as they weren't coming up in the diff at first. Anyway, this is a patch for the 6.x-2.x-dev branch. If anyone dares give it a go I'll be happy to make any tweaks or whatever. #61 is this module still maintained? can anyone help me get the above patch delivered? #62 @Andy : usually the maintainer focuses on the status. #63 And for the next commit, it would be nice to increase the #maxlength attribute of the Video Title form field. 35 is a bit too short... I don't submit any patch for such a little change, it's in emvideo.module line 781.

53 followers Issue Summary I just updated to 6.x-2.1 and my views filter doesn't work anymore. It looks like everything is displayed instead of "future" event that the filter is supposed to do. I just updated to 6.x-2.1 and my views filter doesn't work anymore. It looks like everything is displayed instead of "future" event that the filter is supposed to do. #1 What exactly are you trying to get here? There are a couple of possibilities here, depending upon what you want and what you're currently doing. #2 same problem here! I follow step-by-step those book (O'Reilly - Using Drupal. chapter 9). Then I just updated to 6.x-2.1 and my views filter doesn't work anymore. #3 I have a CCK type 'event' with a Date field. I have a view to display up coming event. So I have a filter on the 'date' field "Is greater than or equal to" now. Before I upgrade it used to work as expected. But after upgrade, it's as if 'now' is way back in the past and my up coming event is showing all the event from my very first old event. I'm not all certain this is a Date module problem because I also just upgraded the Views module. Could this be a Views problem? #4 OK, I have the book, so I took a look. I have a theory on this one. Try the patch in comment #2 of #424006 and see if it helps you. #5 I went and look at #424006: Best way of getting today's events in list view and before I try the patch, I took a look at Views' Live Preview query output:.type in ('event') ORDER BY node_data_field_event_date_field_event_date_value ASC and notice the WHERE clause has no date filter. I deleted the filter and added it again and still the query came out the same. This could be a Views problem. I added a bug report in Views: #427936: Date filter doesn't work anymore: it's not in the where clause. #6 Saw the same issue when upgrade from 6.x-2.x-dev circa Mar 21 to 6.x-2.1. WHERE clause with the date >= now is not added to the sql statement. Clearing views cache, re-saving the date field I was filtering on, re-adding the filter all have no effect. Rollback to the 6.x.-2.x-dev circa Mar 21 I had immediately clears up the problem. Using views 6.x-2.4 btw. #7 Yep, same here. When a concrete date is entered then the WHERE clause is generated, but when only the relative date is given then it misses from the query. Regression compared to 6.x-2.0, where this worked like a charm. #8 @Torenware: The patch you mentioned does not resolve the issue. #9 Checked the dev version (DRUPAL-6--2 branch from today, April 9) and this particular issue is fixed there. #10 Oops, I actually wanted to mark this issue as "fixed". #11 Experienced the same. Upgrading to -dev solved the problem. #12 Note for anyone frustrated on this issue - remember to clear your cache after you upgrade. #13 I am still having an issue with this despite following all of the steps above. The query code I'm generating is: --------_data_field_event_date.field_event_date_timezone AS node_data_field_event_date_field_event_date_timezone, node_data_field_event_date.field_event_date_offset AS node_data_field_event_date_field_event_date_offset, node_data_field_event_date.field_event_date_offset2 AS node_data_field_event_date_field_event_date_offset2, node.type AS node_type, node.vid AS node_vid FROM node node LEFT JOIN content_type_event node_data_field_event_date ON node.vid = node_data_field_event_date.vid WHERE (node.type in ('event')) AND (node.status <> 0) ORDER BY node_data_field_event_date_field_event_date_value ASC --------- Notice that the WHERE clause is not filtering by date. When I expose Date:Date everything works properly. When I hide Date:Date it's broken again. I have been trying to fix this problem for a few days now and I cannot get it to work! Anyone have any ideas on what I can do to fix this? I've updated to the latest -dev of date, views, and cck #14 Subscribing, I also have this problem. Unable to filter using relative dates. I have 6.x-2.1 installed. Cache is cleared and the views were built after that version was installed. I have even opened all my date fields. #15 #13, #14: As others have indicated here, using the dev version solved this problem. Are you using the dev version? #16 I completely deleted all previous -dev and have intalled: Date 6.x-2.1 Views 6.x-2.5 CCK 6.x-2.2 #17 Whoops! mattyoung, you're correct. It is fixed. I did not see there there was a 6.x-2.x-dev posted Apr-13. Everything works now. #18 For me , the problem was that relative filters on the date field would not show up in the SQL query (whereas absolute ones did). LIke said before, Installing the Date 6.x-2.x version () solved the problem. #19 I do have the Dev version installed and I am still seeing this problem. I don't see any date criteria in the SQL statement. I have: Date: Date Content: Date Range (field_display_date_range) - From date >= now and the SQL looks like this: SELECT node.nid AS nid, node.created AS node_created FROM dru_node node LEFT JOIN dru_comments comments ON node.nid = comments.nid WHERE (node.type in ('dailybulletin')) AND (node.status <> 0) ORDER BY node_created DESC #20 My Bad. I updated the Views module to dev....not Date as mentioned above. It is working now with Date dev. Thank you. #21 I made a patch for this issue, which doesn't require updating the whole dev version. Attached if anyone wants it. #22 Just wondering if there is an idea of this getting rolled into a release? RobbieTheGeek #23 Hi! I am having the same issue. I have same question. When will this get into a release? Until release came someone explain how to install the patch file that is above? Thank you Pam #24 If you do not wish to install the patch, you can simply use the newest -dev release of Date. #25 How do you select the "Is greater than" Operator option in the Views Filters? I am only able to have the "Is equal to" option. I have downloaded the latest -dev version of the Date module and installed it on my site. I have created a new Event node type and added a required Date field called "Event Date" (field_event_date) that allows for an optional To date. I have the Default Display set to "Long" and the Time Zone handling set to "No time zone conversion". I created a new page view and in the fields, I chose "Content: Event Date - From Date" along with the Node title and some other fields. I then chose to add a new Filter and selected "Date: Date (node)" from the date options and chose "Content: Event Date (field_event_date) - From date" from the Date fields choices. The rest of the options I left as default. When the filter configuration options appear, the only choice I have for the Operator: is "Is equal to" which expects me to enter either an absolute date or set defaults for a relative date. How come I cannot choose an operator of "Is greater than" and then enter "now" in the Date default field? As I mentioned, I have the latest development version of the Date module and my Drupal core and all other modules are currently up to date. Any help would be appreciated. #26 Also, even though I have set the output format of the Date field to long with 12 hour time format, my nodes show the dates in 24 hour time format. When I create the node, the dates are entered in 12 Hour format. So I enter 07:00PM but when the node is displayed, it shows 19:00PM. #27 In release notes for 2.1 it says its fixed, but it isn't... Why? Can we expect 2.2 with a decent fix soon? #28 latest dev version appears to work for me #29 i just updated to the latest dev and can't get date-based views filters to have any effect at all on my results. views that at one point showed only upcoming events now show everything. i've tried removing the filter and recreating it, with no change. below is the sql from two queries, with and without the date filter (the only difference s the inner join, for some reason). also notable is the fact that i have three seemingly-identical options in my date-filter select, see attached. WITH.status <> 0) AND (node.type in ('event')) ORDER BY node_data_field_event_date_field_event_date_value DESC WITHOUT LEFT JOIN content_type_event node_data_field_event_date ON node.vid = node_data_field_event_date.vid WHERE (node.status <> 0) AND (node.type in ('event')) ORDER BY node_data_field_event_date_field_event_date_value DESC #30 fwiw to get my upcoming event block working again, i have gone back to 2.1, and applied the patch in #21. seems to work fine. #31 The patch in #21 is exactly what was already committed to -dev, so you have taken version 2.1 and adjusted it to match -dev, which is the version that is fixed. If -dev didn't work before, it is likely you had a bad value in a cache or something. #21 I can't issue a release when people keep re-reporting that -dev is broken. I have to keep re-testing this over and over and over. If people would quit re-opening this issue I could do something about getting a release out. #32 As KarenS (a.k.a the maintainer) says, the latest -dev works perfectly ! So install the latest -dev and use it until the next release ! Thanks guys for patching and developping ! #33 Just installed upgraded from 6.x-2.x-dev where this problem was fixed to 6.x-2.1. After running update.php the filter stopped working in the view. All nodes were showing when I just wanted from: now to: now + 4 weeks Did this fix somehow not make it thought to the next version? #34 opps, sorry, was looking at the wrong version number :P #35 Here is an exported view that is currently experiencing this issue. It is the block view using the relative time of Now #36 The newest stable version and dev version are still not working for us either. If we expose the filter, it works correctly but for an upcoming events block, you don't want an exposed filter. #37 Tested on -dev release. Problem still exists. #38 I checked out #35 on a copy of his site and it is now working right in latest -dev. The report in #36 is way too vague for me to do anything with. 'The newest stable version' is not the version to test, we are testing -dev. I'm going to leave this marked fixed because it seems to be fixed for most and I need to get a new stable version released with these fixes. #39 Sorry it was a miscommunication, my partner grabbed and installed the latest version of views. #40 Have you done an update.php? You have to revert your DB to before you installed 2.1 and then do the DEV versions update.php. #41 just updated to the latest date version (6.x-2.2) and the ">= now" still isn't working but i think it has to do with the date format string having an extra 'T' in it in the view filter. (DATE_FORMAT(STR_TO_DATE(node_data_field_thing_date.field_thing_date_value, '%Y-%m-%dT%T'), '%Y-%m-%d') >= '2009-05-15') shouldn't that be (DATE_FORMAT(STR_TO_DATE(node_data_field_thing_date.field_thing_date_value, '%Y-%m-%d %T'), '%Y-%m-%d') >= '2009-05-15') ? #42 i changed line 178 of the date_api_sql.inc file and removed the extra T in the STR_TO_DATE function and now it works fine. now i'm off to see why all my calendars disappeared :) #43 Re-opening, due to comment in #41. Proper patch required, I guess. Will test myself soon. #44 I saw that on chadd had posted something similar. KarenS had answered it thusly: Several of the NOW features seem to have more to do with changes to the database or updates not being finished. In other words, people may have to run update.php more than once if all of the necessary changes don't happen because an update is required before a second update can happen. Are you still having trouble? The troubleshooting information helped me. It's at the bottom of the default page. #45 yes, she said the extra % char gets stripped out, but nobody ever said that the extra T should be there. and when i removed the T, it started working fine. #46 I am still facing this problem. Using the last stable (not dev) version of Date, and I'm trying to set the filter as > NOW (to show upcoming events). No way, in the views sql query there is no trace of this filter. If I put a fixed date it appears correctly, so seems like it's NOW disturbing it. Did someone come with a working solution? #47 Having same issue with 5.x-2.x-dev When using views it seems to think NOW = 2009-01-01 .. So it screws up view results. I have logos that display in a date range, so its basicly showing old logos from the start of the year instead of the latest ones.. Please fix :) Im in a time warp! #48 Subscribe #49 Here's what I did to fix this: 1) Go to the content type with which you're having date/"now" issues 2) The granularity for my date field was Year/Month/Day, so I added Hour and Minute (you can probably get away with adding just Hour in this particular case) 3) Edit the view in question; under filters, for that date field, you should now have values that are set to 2009-01-01 00:00. 4) Select the blank/empty value for all those fields, and make sure you have "now" as your option. 5) Reset your granularity in the content type field settings to your original values. I have no idea *why* this is happening, but I discovered, after doing a clean Drupal 5.18 install with stable CCK/Views and Date 5.x-2.7, that the field in the filter section of the view creation form had granularity options I wasn't seeing. I figured making a change to the field's granularity might at least elicit some reaction from either Views or Date; it seems that the "now" option is ignored precisely because there *are* values in those granularity options for the view field filter, but I don't know why these options were hidden in the first place or how they acquired their values. #50 I have to say, I actually *tried* 6,x-2.2 today and didn't have any problems. For me it works right out of the box. @chadd Could you provide a content type export and a view export for us to try elsewhere against 6.x-2.2? #51 Right... I just updated to the -dev version (current Drupal version) and run update.php a couple of times. I empty all my caches to be certain. I'm using postgres. The granularity of my content-type has year -> minutes in it. I then create a query which looks like this by adding an absolute value to my date filter SELECT node.nid AS nid, node.title AS node_title, node_data_field_eventstartdate.field_eventstartdate_value AS node_data_field_eventstartdate_field_eventstartdate_value, node_data_field_eventstartdate.field_eventstartdate_value2 AS node_data_field_eventstartdate_field_eventstartdate_value2, node.type AS node_type, node.vid AS node_vid FROM rfc_node node LEFT JOIN rfc_content_type_event node_data_field_eventstartdate ON node.vid = node_data_field_eventstartdate.vid INNER JOIN rfc_users users ON node.uid = users.uid WHERE ((node.type in ('event')) AND (node.status <> 0 OR node.uid = ***CURRENT_USER*** or ***ADMINISTER_NODES*** = 1)) AND (TO_CHAR((node_data_field_eventstartdate.field_eventstartdate_value::ABSTIME + INTERVAL '3600 SECONDS'), 'YYYY-MM-DD') >= '2007-01-10') ORDER BY node_data_field_eventstartdate_field_eventstartdate_value ASC Note the custom date 2007-01-10. I then EDIT the filter to remove the absolute value and add the now option. the query doesn't change. If i delete the filter and recreate it directly with 'now' then this where option is missing complete: I then install the development date module. Update.php, empty cache, remove filter, save view. Recreate filter. Works fine. Conclusion: you need the dev version of Views and Date. Update.php and empty your cache. While debugging make sure the filter appears in the query field #52 @chadd That didnt seem to fix it for me :( #53 *AHEM* See above ... ^^ If people having problems still actually attach their content types and views as exported code in txt files then it might give module devs something to work with... There could be a million reasons why any one individual instance of Date is not working, so without anything except for "didn't work for me" it's a needle in a haystack. And will be ignore or set to "maintainer needs more info". Both the affected modules provide handy export features so someone can import your specific code and try it for themselves. Use them! =) #54 @greg.harvey I was letting chadd know his fix of removing the t did not work for me. Ive attached the views export .. I'll have to look into the content type exports, I dont see any option in the gui to do that. #55 @macrocosm: awesome, thanks! =) Go to admin/content/types/export for CCK export. You need to enable the Content Copy module (comes with CCK) to have that link. #56 @greg.harvey For some reason there was something corrupt in my db .. once I uninstalled the modules and used the wizard again on top of my already existing date content type. I then moved over the old data/dates etc to my new date field. Everything is working as expected now! I have no idea what could have chewed it up, but its a happy camper now! Thanks again for the tips on exports .. i'd not used those before, im sure they could be useful! CHeers #57 I believe I'm getting the same problem and I've tried all of the points above and still receive no result. I'm attempting to create a normal run of the mill events calendar using Date, Calendar and Views. I have the latest dev version of Date and Stable version Views and Calendar installed. When I select the CCK date to be used as the argument of the View it does not bring up any results, when the Node Update date is used it works fine, but of course doesn't do what an events list should. Its not the first time I've configured this set-up, but using the latest module releases it fails to work. So it leaves me to believe there is a problem with the module. Sorry guys I'm not that skilled to delve any further than the GUI. #58 @hoffi: Did you also add the CCK date to the fields of the view? The way the calendar view works, the CCK date field must be added to both the argument of the view AND the field list. This changed a little while ago. Earlier, the argument date field was automatically added to the views field list behind the scenes. That caused some other problems so Karen removed that 'feature.' See this issue: #389294: Time Slot Calendar does not work #59 Thank you very much, I was not aware of this change. Problem solved! #60 I'm going to mark this issue as fixed. I think the original issue IS fixed. There are some other questions above that may not be completely resolved. This issue thread is way too long and confusing and polluted to continue in a constructive way. If you have a related issue, please create another issue that can be more focused on your problem. #61 Automatically closed -- issue fixed for 2 weeks with no activity. #62 This problems seems to be back. I have modified the field_event_date filter on the Upcoming block in 6.x 2.2, setting the operand to "greater than or equal to" and the value to "now". The following query is generated... SELECT node.nid AS nid, node.title AS node_title, node.language AS node_language, node_data_field_event_date.field_event_date_value AS node_data_field_event_date_field_event_date_value, node_data_field_event_date.field_event_date_value2 AS node_data_field_event_date_field_event_date_value2, node_data_field_event_date.field_event_date_rrule AS node_data_field_event_date_field_event_date_rrule, node_data_field_event_date.delta AS node_data_field_event_date_delta, node.type AS node_type, node.vid AS node_vid FROM node node LEFT JOIN content_field_event_date node_data_field_event_date ON node.vid = node_data_field_event_date.vid WHERE (node.status <> 0) AND (node.type in ('event')) AND (node_data_field_event_date.delta >= 0) ORDER BY node_data_field_event_date_field_event_date_value ASC As you can see, the where clause node_data_field_event_date.delta <= 0 is incorrect. I tried other value formats and other operands including less than, greater than and between. No matter what combination is chosen, the value is always "0". #63 See this... #64 wow 5-13-10 3 hours later rolled back to Oh well. Thanks though far a great module! seriously how many hours would it have taken me to build this like 300. Wish I could help on that bug. #65 #66 This is also happening to me. I installed the calendar module and one of the displays that comes with it is called 'Upcoming'. In my event content type, I have a CCK field I created called field_event_date. I configured the calendar view to use that cck field instead of the default node:last updated argument. I made the Filter do greater than or equal to, for field_event_date to be greater than or equal to "now". Instead of the desired result, I get all events instead of events with field_event_date > NOW(). I tried using the dev version of date, no luck. I tried downgrading to date6.x-2.0 and that didn't work. Was thinking about trying to upgrade to views3... I've attached an export of the view I'm using. It should be very similar to the view that comes with the calendar module except with some small overrides on my part. Here is my drush sm. Package Name Type Status Version Activity Stream Activity Stream Core (activitystream) Module Enabled 6.x-2.0-beta1 Activity Stream Delicious Bookmarks (activitystream_delicious) Module Not installed 6.x-2.0-beta1 Activity Stream Digg (activitystream_digg) Module Not installed 6.x-2.0-beta1 Activity Stream Feed stream (activitystream_feed) Module Enabled 6.x-2.0-beta1 Activity Stream Flickr Stream (activitystream_flickr) Module Not installed 6.x-2.0-beta1 Activity Stream Last.fm (activitystream_lastfm) Module Not installed 6.x-2.0-beta1 Activity Stream Twitter (activitystream_twitter) Module Enabled 6.x-2.0-beta1 Administration Admin (admin) Module Enabled 6.x-1.0-beta3 Administration Administration menu (admin_menu) Module Enabled 6.x-1.5 CCK Content (content) Module Enabled 6.x-2.6 CCK Content Copy (content_copy) Module Enabled 6.x-2.6 CCK Content Permissions (content_permissions) Module Not installed 6.x-2.6 CCK Fieldgroup (fieldgroup) Module Enabled 6.x-2.6 CCK FileField (filefield) Module Enabled 6.x-3.3 CCK FileField Meta (filefield_meta) Module Not installed 6.x-3.3 CCK ImageField (imagefield) Module Enabled 6.x-3.3 CCK Node Reference (nodereference) Module Enabled 6.x-2.6 CCK Number (number) Module Enabled 6.x-2.6 CCK Option Widgets (optionwidgets) Module Enabled 6.x-2.6 CCK Text (text) Module Enabled 6.x-2.6 CCK User Reference (userreference) Module Not installed 6.x-2.6 Core - optional Aggregator (aggregator) Module Not installed 6.16 Core - optional Blog (blog) Module Not installed 6.16 Core - optional Blog API (blogapi) Module Not installed 6.16 Core - optional Book (book) Module Not installed 6.16 Core - optional Color (color) Module Enabled 6.16 Core - optional Comment (comment) Module Enabled 6.16 Core - optional Contact (contact) Module Not installed 6.16 Core - optional Content translation (translation) Module Not installed 6.16 Core - optional Database logging (dblog) Module Enabled 6.16 Core - optional Forum (forum) Module Not installed 6.16 Core - optional Help (help) Module Enabled 6.16 Core - optional Locale (locale) Module Not installed 6.16 Core - optional Menu (menu) Module Enabled 6.16 Core - optional OpenID (openid) Module Not installed 6.16 Core - optional Path (path) Module Enabled 6.16 Core - optional PHP filter (php) Module Not installed 6.16 Core - optional Ping (ping) Module Not installed 6.16 Core - optional Poll (poll) Module Not installed 6.16 Core - optional Profile (profile) Module Not installed 6.16 Core - optional Search (search) Module Not installed 6.16 Core - optional Statistics (statistics) Module Not installed 6.16 Core - optional Syslog (syslog) Module Not installed 6.16 Core - optional Taxonomy (taxonomy) Module Enabled 6.16 Core - optional Throttle (throttle) Module Not installed 6.16 Core - optional Tracker (tracker) Module Not installed 6.16 Core - optional Trigger (trigger) Module Not installed 6.16 Core - optional Update status (update) Module Enabled 6.16 Core - optional Upload (upload) Module Not installed 6.16 Core - required Block (block) Module Enabled 6.16 Core - required Filter (filter) Module Enabled 6.16 Core - required Node (node) Module Enabled 6.16 Core - required System (system) Module Enabled 6.16 Core - required User (user) Module Enabled 6.16 Date/Time Calendar (calendar) Module Enabled 6.x-2.2 Date/Time Calendar iCal (calendar_ical) Module Not installed 6.x-2.2 Date/Time Calendar Popup (jcalendar) Module Disabled 6.x-2.2 Date/Time Date (date) Module Enabled 6.x-2.4 Date/Time Date API (date_api) Module Enabled 6.x-2.4 Date/Time Date Locale (date_locale) Module Not installed 6.x-2.4 Date/Time Date PHP4 (date_php4) Module Not installed 6.x-2.4 Date/Time Date Popup (date_popup) Module Disabled 6.x-2.4 Date/Time Date Repeat API (date_repeat) Module Enabled 6.x-2.4 Date/Time Date Timezone (date_timezone) Module Enabled 6.x-2.4 Date/Time Date Tools (date_tools) Module Not installed 6.x-2.4 Date/Time Node Repeat (node_repeat) Module Enabled 6.x-1.1 Development Devel (devel) Module Disabled 6.x-1.20 Development Devel generate (devel_generate) Module Not installed 6.x-1.20 Development Devel node access (devel_node_access) Module Not installed 6.x-1.20 Development Performance Logging (performance) Module Not installed 6.x-1.20 Development SimpleTest (simpletest) Module Not installed 6.x-2.9 Development Theme developer (devel_themer) Module Disabled 6.x-1.x-dev Flags Flag (flag) Module Enabled 6.x-1.3 Flags Flag actions (flag_actions) Module Not installed 6.x-1.3 ImageCache ImageAPI (imageapi) Module Enabled 6.x-1.8 ImageCache ImageAPI GD2 (imageapi_gd) Module Enabled 6.x-1.8 ImageCache ImageAPI ImageMagick (imageapi_imagemagick) Module Not installed 6.x-1.8 ImageCache ImageCache (imagecache) Module Enabled 6.x-2.0-beta10 ImageCache ImageCache UI (imagecache_ui) Module Enabled 6.x-2.0-beta10 Meta tags Nodewords (nodewords) Module Enabled 6.x-1.11 Meta tags Nodewords - basic meta tags (nodewords_basic) Module Enabled 6.x-1.11 Meta tags Nodewords - extra meta tags (nodewords_extra) Module Enabled 6.x-1.11 Meta tags Nodewords - site verification meta tags Module Not installed 6.x-1.11 (nodewords_verification_tags) Other Backup and Migrate (backup_migrate) Module Enabled 6.x-2.2 Other IMCE (imce) Module Not installed 6.x-1.3 Other LoginToboggan (logintoboggan) Module Not installed 6.x-1.6 Other Page Title (page_title) Module Enabled 6.x-2.3 Other Pathauto (pathauto) Module Enabled 6.x-1.3 Other Token (token) Module Enabled 6.x-1.12 Other Token actions (token_actions) Module Not installed 6.x-1.12 Other TokenSTARTER (tokenSTARTER) Module Not installed 6.x-1.12 Pressflow Cookie cache bypass (cookie_cache_bypass) Module Not installed Pressflow Path alias cache (path_alias_cache) Module Not installed Statistics Google Analytics (googleanalytics) Module Enabled 6.x-2.2 User interface jQuery UI (jquery_ui) Module Enabled 6.x-1.3 User Interface jQuery Update (jquery_update) Module Enabled 6.x-1.1 Views Views (views) Module Enabled 6.x-2.10 Views Views exporter (views_export) Module Disabled 6.x-2.10 Views Views UI (views_ui) Module Enabled 6.x-2.10 Yahoo YUI YUI (yui) Module Disabled 6.x-1.1-rc2 Yahoo YUI YUI editor (yui_editor) Module Disabled 6.x-2.33 Other Bluemarine (bluemarine) Theme Disabled 6.16 Other Chameleon (chameleon) Theme Disabled 6.16 Other Garland (garland) Theme Disabled 6.16 Other Marvin (marvin) Theme Disabled 6.16 Other Minnelli (minnelli) Theme Disabled 6.16 Other Pushbutton (pushbutton) Theme Disabled 6.16 #67 Changing back to needs review. I fixed this by setting the granularity of the default date argument of the view from days to hours. #68 I have the exact same issue as Bob in #66. Views calendar: Upcoming: Filter date does not work. It's not listed. --Edit: ok I found it under 'Date'. This works, but I'm unable to expose the filter. #69 Danny is the expose button just not appearing? or are you getting an error? Can you post a screenshot of your problem? Be sure that the granularity between the argument and the filter is the same. #70 So normally I would look for Content: Date - From date to filter my content, just like I use this for my fields and sorting. But under filters it is not listed. That's why I tried Date: Date (node) to filter instead. What I want to do is list the events that are yet to come. But optionally, I want to list all of the events using a drop down. I don't understand why this drop down isn't showing. With other views lists, I can use a drop down with the option to just show all. So my date settings successfully show the events that are yet to come. (as you can see in the screenshot) Screenshots: Edit screen of the view - Second edit screen of the view - the admin view of the calendar with the events list below So yes, everything works great, but the filter is not exposed. I basically want only 2 options: show all dates or only show the upcoming dates. Tnx for your help. #71 I'm have the same goal and issue in #70. #72 It looks like date filter only works if raw style is set on fields. When I set the view raw on "node" all dates get messed up. I'm using last dev of date , views and calendar #73 sunscribe #74 hi, I had the same problem and moved to dev. The problem did not resolve until I used the "Date default: " and entered: now. The problem now became that when editing the content with dates I got a message that date_api.module expected a date and not a string. The following resolved the isuue: function date_format_date($date, $type = 'medium', $format = '', $langcode = NULL) { if (empty($date)) { return ''; } if (get_Class($date) != 'DateTime') { $date = new DateTime($date); } I hope this helps kootenay Artesania #75 subscribing #76 subscribing #77 I think was caused by the same problem as #580178: Views: SQL Error "Unknown column" when using fields from different content-types in a filter. I reverted that change and I think things are working again. #78 Automatically closed -- issue fixed for 2 weeks with no activity. #79 I am using these modules: date-6.x-2.x-dev.tar.gz views-6.x-3.x-dev.tar.gz And I still can not get relative date filters like 'now' to work. I am just trying to show future events in a table. I can only get absolute filtering to work, like this: Date: Date (node) Content: Date (field_date) - From date >= 2010-11-12 00:00:00 When I enter now into the relative field (default date) it will not take, it will not save. " Relative value Relative values will be used if no date is set above. Use 'now' to default to the current date at runtime or add modifiers like 'now +1 day'. The To date default value is used when the operator is set to 'between' or 'not between'. You can use any values PHP's date_create() can understand, like between '12AM today' and '12AM tomorrow. If the filter is exposed, these values will be used to set the inital value of the exposed filter. Leave both date and default values blank to start with no value in the exposed filter. Date default: " #80 I'm using this to also set up listing of future event dates (created using custom content type, using the datetime field) to be filtered. All I'm trying to do is enter 'now' into the "Date default" field. The SQL does not issue a current date in the WHERE clause, and it doesn't even look like the 'now' entry was ever saved. I've heard of people having troubles with this issue in Date 2.1 but I'm using Date 2.6 and even updated to the 2.X dev version from Nov. 7, 2010, but still not able to utilize the 'now' to be entered into the "Date default field". Even tried switching (under Views) for this filter to switch "Date form type" from 'select' to 'text' and nothing worked. I tried to 'Expose' this also, and no fix. Is it really supposed to be this difficult to use a 'now' clause? Or is this a bug that really needs to be addressed? I'm really confused at this point. Using: Content Construction Kit (CCK) 6.x-2.8 Views 6.x-3.x-dev (2010-Nov-12) Date 6.x-2.x-dev (2010-Nov-07) #81 See here: And here is a working solution: If I understand merlinofchaos correctly, then the bug is within the date module and the fix above will not be commited. Maybe the author of the date module should have a look at this because its quite easy to reproduce. #82 Its fixed within Views 3 dev: #83 Confirmed fixed in latest dev code. #84 Automatically closed -- issue fixed for 2 weeks with no activity. #85 I stuggled with Views Filtering today and was finally able to get it to work. I don't know if this will help out or not. Using Date 6x-2.6 Date Popup 6x-2.6 Views 6x-2.11 I have a Date field in a custom content type that uses Date Popup. Make sure the Default time is set to 'Now'. I also set the 'To Date' to Blank. I chose the following Input Format: January 15, 2011 - 13:20 +0000. My granularity is Year, Month, Day. In my View, I created an Upcoming Events block. First I set the Sort Criteria to Date: Asc. Then I saved the View. Then I added the Date: Date(node) Content: Date filter to Greater than or equal to 'Now'. I saved the View and it's working without any changes. I went back and changed the Date Input Format to Sat, 01/15/2011 and it still works. I'm not sure, but I wonder if doing the Sort first and then adding the filter allows it to work correctly. Anyways, that worked for me. Mike #86 6.x-2.7 - date "greater than or equal to" "now" returned all results. "greater than" "yesterday" worked as expected. I would say this issue isn't yet fixed. #87 So leave it on 2.x then please. #88 From what I can tell, the directions ask for lower-case "now" but upper-case "Now" is what actually works. Can anyone confirm my observation? #89 #90 We have a similar issue. But instead, I'm getting this bizarro query. Any ideas, anyone? SELECT node.nid AS nid, node_data_field_date.field_date_value AS node_data_field_date_field_date_value, node_data_field_date.field_date_value2 AS node_data_field_date_field_date_value2, node.type AS node_type, node.vid AS node_vid, node.title AS node_title, location.lid AS location_lid, node_revisions.teaser AS node_revisions_teaser, node_revisions.format AS node_revisions_format FROM node node LEFT JOIN content_type_public_event node_data_field_date ON node.vid = node_data_field_date.vid LEFT JOIN location_instance location_instance ON node.vid = location_instance.vid LEFT JOIN location location ON location_instance.lid = location.lid LEFT JOIN node_revisions node_revisions ON node.vid = node_revisions.vid WHERE ((node.status <> 0) AND (node.type in ('public_event'))) AND ((DATE_FORMAT(ADDTIME(STR_TO_DATE(node_data_field_date.field_date_value, '%Y-%m-%dT%T'), SEC_TO_TIME(-18000)), '%Y-%m') <= '2011-12' AND DATE_FORMAT(ADDTIME(STR_TO_DATE(node_data_field_date.field_date_value2, '%Y-%m-%dT%T'), SEC_TO_TIME(-18000)), '%Y-%m') >= '2011-12')) ORDER BY node_data_field_date_field_date_value DESC the problem seems to be that it should be bounding the query by node_data_field_date.field_date_value both ways, but for whatever reason, it bounds it by the valid field (field_date_value) from below, but from above it is bounding it by field_date_value2 - a field which I'm unsure of. I think in fact it is the end date field, but I'm confused as to why, if I've only chosen the argument to be 'from date', i'd be getting 'to date' in the query? Reading the thread, it really seems like Date is bungled up. This is a production site which went live before we realized Calendar was buggered out -- is there any clean fix to this? Prior to messing around with this, Views was managing to find and display non-existent events on the calendar - ones we had deleted - ! Caching was not on. Date is 6.x 2.4. Shall I brave the dev version? #91 upgarded to 6.x 2.7 and its solved the problem #92 Updating to 2.7 didn't work for us, unless we're going to have to entirely rebuild the Calendar - which I don't think is possible on the production site without taking it down for a day - which we can't do. Any solutions? #93 Please don't re-open closed issues. Find an open issue or create a new issue instead. riverc; Your issue is probably not the same if upgrading didn't fix it. #94 For anyone struggling with this in Views 2, use the Content: Date version of the field instead of the Date: Date version, and it should work fine.

Messy, indeed. Projects were scaled back, postponed or cancelled altogether; sources of finance dried up almost overnight; demand for electricity fell; and natural gas prices remained remarkably low through much of the year playing havoc with project development economic forecasts. “Development was slow going, particularly for large projects that required upfront capital,” said Enbar, Boulder, Colo.-based research manager for IDC Energy Insight. Despite the mess — or perhaps because of it — two trends emerged that seem likely to drive renewable energy markets well into 2010. Utility Involvement First was the steadily growing utility role in the renewable energy sector. No longer “simply” off-takers through purchased power agreements with independent power providers, utilities are emerging as a significant development force. Their emergence is driven by ongoing access to capital, growing comfort in renewable technologies, an array of financial incentives and — in the case of solar photovoltaics — a drop in price that makes PV an attractive investment. The price decline spurred at least seven utilities across the country to begin developing PV facilities for their own rate base, said Lisa Frantzis, managing director for renewable and distributed energy with Navigant Consulting. Those utilities include Southern California Edison, Pacific Gas & Electric, Public Service Electric and Gas and Duke Energy, among others. “I have never seen so much interest,” she said. A related development is the growing use by utilities of investor equity, tax equity or pools of tax equity capital to develop projects. “Utilities have tax burdens that are roughly six to seven times higher than what has historically been the pool for tax equity finance,” said Chris O’Brien, who heads market development efforts for thin-film silicon maker Oerlikon Solar. “Now utilities can use the credits themselves, increasing the opportunity for them to invest directly in projects,” either to include in their rate base or as a non-regulated investment. Investor-owned utilities seem to have weathered the economic downturn better than other sectors. “The important thing was we (investor-owned utilities) were able to continue to borrow on a long-term basis” during the financial crisis, said Mark Agnew, director of financial analysis for the Edison Electric Institute, which represents many investor-owned utilities. At the height of the financial crisis, a number of those utilities cut their capital expenditure budgets by an average of 10 percent. As the year progressed, however, many of those cuts were reversed. “We’re back on track for capex in 2009-2010 in the mid-$80 billion range,” Agnew said. Another utility trend is that for the first time, more than half of the utilities polled by the Electric Power Research Institute said they considered themselves renewable energy project owner-operators. That factor is likely to put more downward pressure on costs as utilities work to cut costs further, said Bryan Hannegan, vice president of environment and generation at EPRI. “The days of freewheeling, ‘I’ll buy it at whatever cost’ are ending,” he said. Government Intervention A second major trend likely to influence the sector during 2010 is the federal government’s financial market intervention, which included some $67 billion of stimulus money, loan guarantees and grant programs for the renewables industry. Intervention actually began last autumn when Congress extended an already existing series of tax incentives and then took the step of making utilities eligible for the credits for the first time. In February after the economy fell on the floor Congress passed the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act (the “stimulus bill”). Included were a variety of loan guarantee and grant programs offered through the departments of Treasury and Energy and intended to keep money flowing for project development and new manufacturing initiatives. “The government stimulus made up for the shortfall in private sector finance,” said Hannegan. The money helped the renewable energy industry maintain momentum it otherwise would have lost. The federal financial aid has allowed virtually every developer to opt between receiving a production tax credit or an investment tax credit, said Energy’s Insight’s Enbar. And it also allowed developers to receive up-front grants, “which is, in some ways, the best way to get financing.” The stimulus was critical to filling the gap to “keep companies from going belly up,” Frantzis said. (To learn more about how one wind developer leveraged stimulus money and a novel “pre-pay” strategy to develop a 60 MW project, read The Deal, here.) One question for 2010 is whether or not the federal stimulus money is sustainable over time. Barry Worthington, executive director of the U.S. Energy Association, offered the reminder that “what the federal government giveth, the federal government can taketh away.” He wondered whether pressures to balance the federal budget may lead Congress to retrench on some of the financial programs that benefit the renewable industry. Tighter fiscal policy, he cautioned, could eclipse interest both in climate change and the push for national renewable energy standards. A related question is the extent to which the private financial sector reenters the renewables market. Loan conditions tightened and lenders showed little appetite for billion-dollar-plus projects during 2009. Instead, lenders favored projects in the range of $300 to $400 million earlier in the year, then as markets recovered, expanded that range to $700 million to $800 million. Even so, lenders are showing an aversion to risk, which extends to everything from technology or manufacturer risk to site-specific risks. For example, one proposed wind energy project on a site at 8,000 feet of elevation in southeastern Nevada offered a capacity factor of around 40 percent. Despite the quality of the wind resource, sizable infrastructure requirements kept the project from obtaining finance. “The number of projects deferred or cancelled is really sad,” said Blair Loftis, vice president and national director of alternative and renewable energy for engineering firm Kleinfelder. The company currently is involved in perhaps six wind projects, one-third the number it counted 18 months ago. “We’re still helping wind clients, but we don’t have as many boots on the ground,” Loftis said. Instead, the company spent part of 2009 recasting itself as a developer’s agent in project planning. And it’s focusing resources on utility-scale solar, photovoltaics in particular. “We have an enormous number of projects underway” in solar PV, most in the range of 5 MW to 40 MW, Loftis said. The projects may be relatively small, but they are scalable and thus offer long-term business prospects. “You can add 15 to 20 MW and grow them,” he said. Equally important, capital requirements are less daunting. “Instead of needing to raise $500 million to develop a sizeable wind farm, a solar PV development might cost $100 million or so and then can be scaled up over time.” Because of this and other examples, Ed Feo wonders whether the federal loan guarantee program may eventually form the basis for the still nascent “green bank” concept. “Does it become the vehicle for federal support for renewables,?” asks the Los-Angeles-based partner in the law firm Milbank, Tweed, Hadley & McCloy LLP and co-chair of the firm’s project finance and energy practice. If yes, then perhaps the federal government could end up as a principal, or even the principal, source of finance. Small-scale Preferred A third trend relates to project scale and scope. Ongoing frustrations with siting, permitting and transmission access have some developers seeking the path of least resistance. That favors small, distributed projects. This strategy is being pursued by Southern California Edison, among others, as it deploys 250 MW of rooftop-mounted solar PV across its service territory. Rather than site all that capacity in a single project, the utility is adding it in 1 and 2 MW increments. The approach aims to achieve several things. First, it spreads capacity across the local grid, distributing benefits and drawbacks inherent in the solar resource. Second, building on rooftops eases many of the siting and permitting headaches that accompany greenfield development. Local building codes and permits still must be followed, however. The development focus in the solar energy sector likely will shift from “enormous solar farms in the desert to 1 to 20 MW projects co-located with substations,” said O’Brien. The approach allows for new capacity without the need for additional transmission, a third benefit to the distributed energy approach. (Mike Taylor with the Solar Electric Power Association notes that unlike PV projects and with the exception of a project at Florida Power & Light, utilities largely have not opted to own centralized solar projects. He said this could be due to a “lingering notion of technology risk.”) Ongoing worries about permitting and siting are leading developers to take deliberate steps to site projects close to an interconnection, said Kleinfelder’s Blair Loftis. In the West in particular, developers may prefer negotiating with multiple landowners rather than deal with the federal Bureau of Land Management where many project proposals now are logjammed. Too few staff to review too many development proposals is one reason for the delays. “Renewables are not the oil and gas industry of the future, we’re the industry of today and we need to have staffing” at state and federal permitting agencies, said Karl Gawell, executive director of the Geothermal Energy Association. The sheer volume of applications — which Gawell characterized as a “tsunami” — and the lack of staff at federal and state permitting agencies are slowing the development process. Cautious Optimism Most sources expressed cautious optimism that the worst of the recession is over and that 2010 will see growth resume. They point to the infusion of federal stimulus dollars and renewable portfolio mandates in most states that compel adopting renewable energy technology. At the same time, however, sources noted conflicting trends that make it too early to tell whether or not sustainable recovery is likely in the next 12 to 18 months. It’s a tough time to predict the future, said Jeff Dennis, a regulatory specialist with the Edison Electric Institute. On the one hand, demand for electricity is down, but state renewable portfolio standards and federal policies continue to push renewable energy deployment. “There are so many competing drivers that are 180 degrees from each other,” Dennis said. One uncertainty is the prospect for a federal renewable energy standard. Work on legislation to create such a standard stalled during the autumn as lawmakers argued over health care reform. Several sources suggested the outcome of the health care debate and proposals for financial sector reform may actually determine whether or not a comprehensive energy bill is possible. “Watch health care,” said USEA’s Barry Worthington. That debate has left some lawmakers wondering whether a comprehensive energy and climate change bill is the best course. Work in a more piecemeal and incremental fashion might be the preferred route. “The administration may be more empowered with a renewable energy standard as law even without a comprehensive bill,” Worthington said. Regardless, if Congress fails to pass any sort of a bill before mid-2010, the prospects of getting climate legislation done next year will begin to fade. That leaves Congress with little more than a six-month window to complete its work. “It’s very difficult to get much out of Congress after July 4th” during an election year, Worthington said. But if congressional action on federal standards is sluggish, renewable energy portfolio standards or goals in place in a majority of states are continuing to have an effect. California this fall raised its goal for renewable energy as a percentage of overall generation to 33 percent by 2020. But here too, uncertainty exists. Can California meet its near-term goal of 13 percent renewables by the end of 2010? Sources said hitting that goal seems a stretch at present. In California as elsewhere, transmission adequacy remains a major impediment. Equally vexing are bottlenecks within federal agencies responsible for approving requests for projects on public lands–everything from transmission to projects themselves–a big factor in the west where federal landholdings are vast. “The government has taken some good steps to incentivize renewables,” said Martin Gross, power systems president for ABB. But he believes those steps fall short of enabling the country to reach a goal of even 15 percent renewable energy in the U.S. generation mix by 2020. “Fifteen percent at an availability of 30 percent would require 500 GW of installed capacity nationwide,” he said. “How does that happen?” For one thing, investors need a predictable 10-year return on their investment. For another, firm in-service dates for new transmission need to be set. “If you don’t see that it will be a continuation of 2009 with delays, delays, delays, delays,” Gross said. Transmission and permitting will be perennial issues for renewable energy projects for the foreseeable future, said EPRI’s Bryan Hannegan. Opposition continues to large-scale developments, even those that promise low-carbon renewable energy. “We may have misled ourselves,” Hannegan said. “Folks still won’t want those in their backyards.” PV Shines On One bright spot in 2010 may be utility-scale solar photovoltaics, which shows signs of emerging from the economic turmoil well positioned for growth. PV panel prices dropped by around 35 percent in the last year and seem likely to continue to drop. That’s good news for developers. But the price decline comes largely at the expense of suppliers, who have too much manufacturing capacity and too much supply. Manufacturers saw the market start to reverse in the third quarter of 2008 when the Spanish government moved to curtail what it saw as an overheated domestic market. That market also accounted for around 40 percent of the world’s large-scale PV demand. The Spanish market contracted some 80 percent on the government’s retrenchment and suppliers worldwide started to see inventory pile up. The Spanish government’s action had a “dramatic and immediate impact on companies that ramped up capacity” to meet global demand, said Chris O’Brien of Olerikon Solar. Hard on the heels of the Spanish reversal came the collapse of the U.S. tax equity market, which had been a cornerstone for much of the lending that supported renewable energy development. That collapse “sent a chill through the market,” O’Brien said, and it added to the fall in component prices. “Everyone in the channel needs more profit to stay in business,” said Ron Kenedi, vice president of solar energy solutions for Sharp Solar. Having seen a 35 percent drop in PV panel prices in the last year, Kenedi said, “I don’t see how that (sort of price decline) can continue.” Unpredictable Natural Gas? A wildcard in any 2010 forecast is natural gas, which saw volumes soar and prices fall during 2009. In the still-unsettled waters after the economic storm, a wide difference of opinion exists when it comes to the implications for renewables. On the one hand, the drop in natural gas prices “helps wind enormously,” said USEA’s Barry Worthington. Low natural gas prices could further discourage coal-fired power plant development. And it could affect the economic viability of new nuclear power plants. On the other hand, Blair Loftis at engineering firm Kleinfelder said “as long as natural gas prices are low it will suppress the (renewable energy) market.” And Jeff Anthony, director of business development for the American Wind Energy Association, said “a wind project does not look as economical with low gas prices.” To its advantage, however, wind offers long-term fuel price certainty and relatively short project construction times. In places where wind competes head-to-head with natural gas capacity, those factors can still benefit wind. Finally, EPRI’s Bryan Hannegan said that although the historically low price of natural gas is “not good in terms of the renewable industry trying to build” new capacity, ongoing pressure exists through renewable portfolio standards to build new renewable energy capacity. That may be enough to counter natural gas’s economic effects, And as the economy has righted itself in recent months, interest in developing renewable energy projects has resumed. “The market is hungry for good economic projects,” said Tim Howell, managing director and commercial leader for power and renewable energy with GE Energy Financial Services. Technology Innovation Also driving change in 2010 and beyond is technological innovation. Energy Insight’s Nadav Enbar said innovation allows for production cost reductions and installation cost reductions, either one of which improves a project’s financial performance. Solar PV may be among the most innovative technologies at present. For example, Oerlikon Solar achieved a new stabilized record efficiency level for amorphous silicon (a-Si) single junction PV cells. Recent test results reconfirmed and approved by the National Renewable Energy Laboratory show efficiencies of more than 10 percent power conversion. These results set a new world record for amorphous thin film silicon PV technology. The improvement is important because higher-efficiency thin film requires considerably fewer balance of system components, O’Brien said. Competitors have not been standing still. Cost-leaders in crystalline technology have been driving costs down by using lower-cost polysilicon and less expensive manufacturing processes. A cadmium-telluride competition by FirstSolar showed promise of continuing to drive down costs still further. During the second quarter of 2009, FirstSolar became one of the first PV manufacturers to produce modules for less than $1 a watt. “The importance of producing a module at under $1 a watt is enormous,” said Enbar. “There is enough disparity between production costs that they (FirstSolar) become the low-cost leader.” The cost currently is less than $0.90 a watt and could fall to just above $0.50 a watt by 2013. Work is underway to drive down balance of plant costs, such as inverters and racking. Solar may be seeing the most dramatic technology changes, but wind is among the most advanced renewable energy. It will still be awhile before the onshore wind market becomes saturated in the U.S., but a lot of movement offshore exists. The coming months could also see the first offshore wind farms developed in the U.S. This comes 20 years after some of the first offshore turbines were installed in Denmark. Duke Energy may be among the first to install offshore turbines with plans to invest $35 million for three turbines in waters off the North Carolina coast in Pamlico Sound. The Atlantic coast could be home to more than 1 GW of offshore wind farms, said the National RenewableEnergy Laboratory, which pegged the potential at roughly 900 MW off the Pacific coast. The U.S. Department of Interior said about 2 GW of offshore wind projects have been proposed in the United States. To date none have been built. The controversial Cape Wind project off Cape Cod in Massachusetts is close to receiving its final permits, an important milestone prior to obtaining financing. That project could see 130 wind turbines with a generating capacity of 420 MW. Developer Cape Wind Associates has spent about eight years and $40 million so far on its efforts to build the facility in waters 5.5 miles from Hyannis, Mass. The total price tag is estimated to be $1 billion. And the Bluewater wind project in waters off the Delaware coast first issued a PPA in 2008 and could make additional progress during 2010, buoyed by its purchase by NRG Energy announced Nov. 10. Offshore wind could also move ahead in Texas, in part owing to the state’s unique regulatory environment. The state claims jurisdiction 10 miles into the Gulf of Mexico, more than three times the distance claimed by states along the Atlantic coast. That puts Texas projects beyond the range of important “view sheds” and also removes red tape by largely eliminating federal review. In geothermal, work is underway to improve resource detection and development. Geothermal development can be more risky than either oil or natural gas development, said Dan Jennejohn with the Geothermal Energy Association. Dry holes are not uncommon. What’s more, it’s become more expensive to develop a geothermal field. In the past a geothermal project was not considered financeable unless one-third of a well field was drilled and confirmed. Now the figure is closer to two-thirds to as much as 70 percent confirmed. “Lenders are applying the same increased scrutiny and decrease in tolerance for risk as in other industries,” said the Association’s Karl Gawell. Even so, technology developments are underway on fracturing techniques to enhance a geothermal resource. The Department of Energy provided $400 million for technology development, and was oversubscribed by a factor of five. In the hydroelectric sector, interest is growing in new developments and repowerings. “It’s time to reinvest in hydro,” said Linda Church-Ciocci, executive director of the National Hydropower Association. Efficiency improvements are expected at a number of existing sites. And interest is growing around areas such as dam-less technologies that insert turbines into navigation locks that previously had not been powered. Pumped storage projects are also gaining renewed attention as a way to provide storage capacity for wind and solar. Conduit and water system projects are among the low-power projects that are seen as more feasible. Stimulus funding provided $32 million for hydro. “We anticipate seeing a significant boost to projects on existing hydro facilities to improve their efficiency,” Church-Ciocci said. “Certainly the stimulus money is working.” As proof, electric power generator PPL Corp. announced plans last April to file a new application with the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission for a $440 million project that would add 125 MW of generating capacity at the Holtwood hydroelectric plant on the Susquehanna River in Lancaster County, Penn. “PPL has reconsidered this project in view of the tax incentives and potential loan guarantees for renewable energy projects that are in the federal economic stimulus package,” said William H. Spence, executive vice president and chief operating officer of the company, which controls 1,100 MW of generation including coal, natural gas, oil, uranium and water. “These stimulus package benefits could make the project feasible again by more than offsetting the factors that caused us to withdraw our original application in December (2008) and the further decline in future energy prices since that time.” While regulatory and other hurdles still must be cleared, the utility said it may put this new generating capacity into service by the spring of 2013. When federal tax credits were reinstated a year ago, expectations were that 2009 would be a good year for renewable energy development. Recession and financial collapse raked the industry, much the same way a hurricane reshapes a landscape. Financial markets still are recovering, the federal government (for now anyway) is a major source of capital, utilities are playing a larger role technology improvements continue to drive innovation and price reductions. Sources agree the basic policies are in place to drive and sustain renewable energy development in the near term. Barring an economic relapse, optimism is high that the next 12 to 18 months will see recovery and growth across most renewable energy sectors. The hope is that the “messy” capitalism that Nadav Enbar said characterized much of 2009 is indeed behind us.

Hon PETER DUNNE (Minister of Revenue) Link to this I move, That the Taxation (Annual Rates, Trans-Tasman Savings Portability, KiwiSaver, and Remedial Matters) Bill be now read a first time. Later I shall be recommending to the House that the bill be referred to the Finance and Expenditure Committee for consideration. The main feature of the bill is a very positive measure for New Zealanders who have been working in Australia and who wish to return home permanently. Currently, they have to make compulsory superannuation contributions to an Australian complying fund. Those funds are then locked into the scheme until that saver reaches retirement age. For New Zealanders who have worked in Australia for some years this can present a significant financial dilemma when they make the decision as to whether to return home. New Zealanders who spend a period of time working in Australia are required at the moment by Australian law to make contributions to an Australian complying superannuation fund, which they are then locked into. When they make the decision after some years as to whether to return home, they are faced with a significant financial dilemma because of the fact that their funds are locked into Australian complying funds. The changes proposed in the bill will help resolve the problem. They will allow New Zealanders with retirement savings in certain Australian superannuation funds to transfer their funds to KiwiSaver when they come home permanently. Conversely, KiwiSaver members who want to move to Australia will be able to transfer all of their savings in the scheme to the Australian complying superannuation scheme. This includes their New Zealand Crown contributions and any member tax credits that they might have. These changes will remove one of the obstacles facing New Zealanders who want to return home by allowing them to consolidate their financial affairs in their chosen country of residence. The changes also represent a positive step towards improving the movement of labour between our two countries and are the result of an agreement signed with the Australians in July this year that recognises the broader close relationship that we have. The remainder of the bill focuses on a number of smaller but important technical measures. All of these measures are intended to improve the way the tax rules work, to make them easier to understand, and to reduce compliance costs for taxpayers. In this respect, a number of enhancements are being made to the KiwiSaver rules. Those enhancements include clarifying the enrolment rules for those under 18 years of age so that guardians and young people themselves have greater certainty about their future obligations under the scheme rules. Members may be aware of a number of issues that have arisen already where there has been confusion. People under the age of 18 have been enrolled in the scheme in a very well-meaning way by parents, guardians, and relatives, only to discover a little later on that they have picked up an ongoing liability. The changes will also allow scheme providers to send members annual reports via an email hyperlink, if the member agrees, in order to reduce the compliance cost for providers, while members will get the information that they need in a form that they increasingly prefer. It also removes a technical obstacle affecting the eligibility of certain members who apply for the KiwiSaver first home deposit subsidy. Taken together, all these changes will make the KiwiSaver rules easier for people to understand. They reduce unnecessary compliance costs and they ensure that the rules work in the way that they were intended to. This bill also makes technical changes to the rules on gift duty. In particular, the bill introduces a number of changes to remove uncertainties around whether gifts such as amenities and artworks made to local or central government or to approved donee organisations are subject to gift duty. The change will make it clear that these gifts are exempt from gift duty, and will be welcomed by those who want to contribute to their communities by gifting items such as artworks or other items for public benefit. A previous uncertainty about whether donations made to public organisations would be subject to gift duty could be seen as a barrier to making such donations. We had the absurd situation whereby, for example, gifts made to the Auckland Art Gallery were subject to gift duty, and gifts made to Te Papa were not. There was no logical reason; that was just the way the law had developed over time. These changes will clarify that situation. Finally, the bill makes some other technical amendments to make the tax laws easier to apply. They include changes to the legislation on binding rulings, which set out how the Inland Revenue Department will apply tax laws, to give greater certainty about the tax implications of business decisions. Other changes contained in the bill are of a remedial nature and remove certain unintended consequences following on from earlier reforms. When taken together, all the taxpayer-friendly changes in this bill will help improve the way our tax rules work, and they will reduce compliance costs for taxpayers. Therefore, I am happy to commend the Taxation (Annual Rates, Trans-Tasman Savings Portability, KiwiSaver, and Remedial Matters) Bill to the House. Hon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Labour—New Lynn) Link to this Thank you for the opportunity to take a call on the Taxation (Annual Rates, Trans-Tasman Savings Portability, KiwiSaver, and Remedial Matters) Bill, and I thank the Minister of Revenue, Peter Dunne, for his introduction. Labour is supporting the bill, at least to go to the Finance and Expenditure Committee. We will be interested to see what technical arguments are raised by submitters at that point. It is interesting to note the context in which we are debating this bill. Yet another important step in the great tax debate has unfolded before us in the last couple of weeks. It pays to recall some of the salient events that have led us to this point today. First, there was the great global financial crisis that begun in September 2008. Then there was an election in November in which the incoming National Government promised 3 years of income tax cuts. Then in December of last year the House was thrown into urgency to pass the first step in a change that would result in the top 3 percent of New Zealanders getting 30 percent—one-third, nearly—of the tax reduction. Then Budget 2009 effectively gutted the New Zealand Superannuation Fund, with a decade of deferrals of contributions, which no amount of papering over the cracks, as is being attempted in this bill, can disguise. That fund is now projected to be some $35 billion in arrears by the time those deferred payments are lost. A new survey put out by ShapeNZ has told us that 53 percent of New Zealanders—which is more than half—do not believe John Key when he said that it is possible to both defer payments to the Superannuation Fund and maintain existing levels of entitlements. It is a mathematical nonsense, unless the Government is saying that in addition to writing off tens of billions of dollars of pollution subsidies on our young people, it will also make them catch up the difference that it alleges today’s taxpayers cannot afford, at a time when half the taxpayers per capita, or per retiree, are trying to pay those bills. Retirement savings portability is a good idea in principle, subject to the detail being worked through. Labour is prepared to support this provision going to the Finance and Expenditure Committee. But New Zealanders are right. They are deeply concerned about the provisions that this Government has instituted that undermine the security that they will have in retirement and that will undermine the New Zealand Superannuation Fund. It is an irony that in the Crown accounts released last week the Government’s bacon has been saved by the increase in value of assets of the two funds that it has alleged were in crisis and that it has ceased paying into—the New Zealand Superannuation Fund and accident compensation. Were it not for those, the Crown’s books would be in far worse shape. The excuse from the Government is that it does not have a cash surplus so it cannot afford to invest. Well, that is great. It says that people will invest only if they are in cash surplus situations, notwithstanding the rate of return. That is clearly nonsense because the New Zealand Superannuation Fund’s long-term average rate of return is 10.25 percent, according to its latest annual report. The cost of capital to the Government is around half of that figure. So the Government is foregoing— Charles Chauvel Link to this Doubling its money. Hon DAVID CUNLIFFE Link to this It is just about doubling its money because of this vain principle that is really disguised as something else, which is that it never believed in the Cullen fund. One can only ask whether, if the National Government had changed the name to the “English fund”, it would have discovered a newfound love for it. It is petty politics and no amount of papering over the cracks with this worthy attempt at a bill will change the fact that National has gutted New Zealand superannuation and that a majority of New Zealanders no longer believe John Key. They did not believe him on the 3 years of tax cuts, they were not surprised when the promise was broken, and they did not believe him when he said that he could maintain entitlements to superannuation and cease pre-funding. Savings and KiwiSaver, which this bill deals with, are important topics to all New Zealanders, or at least they should be. This Government said that it cares about the fact that our tradable sector is in decline, yet it turns a blind eye to the biggest part of our current account deficit: the financial deficit. There is an outflow of funds because our financial sector does not save enough—and New Zealanders do not save enough in it—and the profits are flowing out of the country to those who own our financial institutions. All New Zealanders should be concerned that we have to borrow more to cover that deficit, and they should be very worried that this Government’s only solution is to flog off what is left of the family silver to try to fix up that gap, rather than address it at source. I would have thought there was little doubt that KiwiSaver was a step in the right direction—not the last word but a very healthy step in the right direction—of lifting New Zealand’s savings rate. So what has this Government, in its wisdom, done? When it came into office it cut by half the incentives for New Zealanders to increase their savings through KiwiSaver. It was a short-sighted and ridiculous policy that went back to 1975 and the ghost of Muldoon, which, by the way, stalked the 2025 report. In the last week we had Don Brash rising from the crypt again, and we have John Key ritually disowning the product even as he invests another $300,000 in paying for it. That report said it was not enough to have a 30c top tax rate, because that would be too timid. I see Roger Douglas nodding vigorously, or maybe he is just asleep. No, he is awake; he is smiling, I think. I say “Well done” to Sir Roger. Hon Trevor Mallard Link to this Awake, and alive! Hon DAVID CUNLIFFE Link to this He is alive, and he is smiling because he knows that one day, when the Māori Party has what it wants, the Government will have to fall back on the ACT Party to pass legislation. Then he will drag the 2025 report and all it contains out of the closet and say to the Government: “That is the price of doing business.” I ask what that is. It is a 20 percent flat tax rate and a cut of the minimum wage by a quarter. For a Cabinet Minister, that equals $600 extra a week. For a worker on the minimum wage, that equals $100 less a week when he or she is already struggling—down from $500 to $400 per week. I say to Bill English, who was sitting here showing great interest in this debate—yes, I see the Minister of Revenue, Peter Dunne, straining his head towards the boss and wondering where he is, but I cannot refer to that. Bill English is taking a great interest in this debate. We know he is so fiscally prudent that he believes it is impossible to live on $400 a week—goodness me! So here is that Minister presiding over a bill that papers over the cracks of fundamental contradictions in this Government’s tax policy. It has gutted KiwiSaver, it has gutted the New Zealand Superannuation Fund, and it is trying to place a veneer on it whereby people can just take their money across the Tasman, retire in sunny Queensland, and it will all be all right. Is the Government’s solution to closing the gap with Australia to export older New Zealanders? Will it try to raise the national IQ or the national income by exporting our senior citizens? Is that what lies at the heart of this debate? Is that what is behind this bill? We have seen nothing more sensible out of the 2025 Taskforce report, at all. It is a return to the failed policies of the past. It is an absolutely shameless shift of net income from the poor to the rich, and at the same time a gutting of the New Zealand Superannuation Fund and of KiwiSaver, just when the assets in those funds have saved the Crown’s bacon, as was revealed in the last monthly Government accounts. This bill deserves to be scrutinised. Labour will support it going to the select committee, but it can do little to save the contradictions already built into this Government. CRAIG FOSS (National—Tukituki) Link to this Talking of contradictions, I am not quite sure whether the previous speaker, the Hon David Cunliffe, wants the Government to borrow a whole lot more to fill up the New Zealand Superannuation Fund. Right now we are borrowing $250 million or $300 million a week simply to keep the lights on, and that member wants us to borrow $600 million a week to top up the fund. I just cannot work the numbers out. I am looking forward to discussing those facts with the member as Taxation (Annual Rates, Trans-Tasman Savings Portability, KiwiSaver, and Remedial Matters) Bill moves through the Finance and Expenditure Committee, which that member is a part of. I just cannot understand how in one breath those members are concerned about the debt under any measure, and then, every time, they want to spend more. And right now they want us to borrow more money to put in the fund to invest in New York or somewhere. I just cannot quite work that one out. It is the same with the accident compensation scheme. The sage-type investment advice we are getting from those members, on whose watch we lost $10 billion to $12 billion last year, is very interesting. I think we need to test them against that. But I digress somewhat. It is a pleasure to rise and speak to the Taxation (Annual Rates, Trans-Tasman Savings Portability, KiwiSaver, and Remedial Matters) Bill. I will speak briefly to it. The Minister outlined the key points to it. There are a couple of points that I am very interested in, and I look forward to further discussions in our committee. I think we will have quite a few submissions on those particular points about providing certainty to some of the binding rulings, and improvements such as the ability to rule when matters are before the courts and clarifying existing legislation and intent. This has been an ongoing issue for the professional sector. The sector has been concerned about the uncertainty and the bottlenecks in disputes procedure in taxation law and looks enviously across the Tasman, where the sector has that nailed down in a much better way than we do. Having said that, I am looking forward to many submissions on that particular part of the bill when it comes before the Finance and Expenditure Committee after its first reading. The bill finally removes one of the two barriers to the 500,000-odd New Zealanders who now live in Australia coming home. Sadly, many of them will now be permanently there, but this will remove one barrier to their mobility back home. The other barrier that was removed to allow New Zealanders to return home was on 8 November last year with the change of Government. Many New Zealanders are starting to look fondly towards moving home. I look forward to debating this bill further in the House. STUART NASH (Labour) Link to this I find it astounding that Mr Foss believes that a lot of New Zealanders are looking fondly across the Tasman and wanting to come home. Maybe they are doing so if they earn more than $100,000, but if they are earning $40,000 or less than the minimum wage, why would they? The Government gave no tax cuts to anyone except the wealthy. I stand in support of the Taxation (Annual Rates, Trans-Tasman Savings Portability, KiwiSaver, and Remedial Matters) Bill. It is common-sense legislation that simplifies the law for many. As mentioned by the Minister of Revenue, Peter Dunne, the bill also includes a number of technical changes to rules surrounding KiwiSaver, gift duty exemptions, and binding rulings, in order to improve the way the rules work and to reduce compliance costs for taxpayers, and other remedial matters. I suspect that the main talking point will be that the bill introduces changes to the tax rules, as alluded to by other speakers, to allow New Zealanders returning home from Australia to bring their retirement savings with them. This is good for a number of reasons. It is a way of future-proofing New Zealand. We all know that the current Minister of Revenue was a Labour member of Parliament for a number of years—10, I think it was—and he worked with the Labour Party for a number of years. But he has fluctuated, philosophically and politically, and has now gone back to the past. In coming from a background such as his I personally cannot see, as a Labour man myself, how the honourable member could possibly align himself with a National Party that has overt philosophies around privatisation and tax cuts for the wealthy. What was that figure? It was that one-third of tax cuts went to the top 3 percent of income earners. How could a former Labour MP for 10 years sit over there and agree with such philosophies? Especially when they are brought in under urgency. It is amazing, is it not? It is absolutely astounding. Hon Trevor Mallard Link to this It was a hell of a lot longer than 10 years. It felt like a century. Yes. But I suspect that deep down he still retains those social democratic values that define our philosophies, which the next Prime Minister of New Zealand, the Hon Phil Goff, personifies so clearly. I say that this bill is future-proofing the country, because the Minister must know that precious few Kiwis will be returning to this wonderful country as long as the National Government is in power. After all, what is attractive about privatising the accident compensation system? In fact, I will tell members who will be coming across the ditch in a great hurry. It will be the Australian insurance companies, who will be wringing their hands in glee at the anticipation of the privatisation of the scheme. It is coming, and I ask members opposite what is next, because that is what the voters in Napier and New Zealand are asking. Will the Government force children who play sport to pay their own accident compensation levies? And what about the elderly? Let us face facts: the elderly use up a fair bit of the accident compensation budget, so will the Government start charging them, as well? What about primary school kids? Will there be another tax on their parents? Of course, kids fall out of trees, and they use the accident compensation scheme. So what is next? What sort of country is the National Government turning this wonderful New Zealand into? Shall we go further? I wonder whether the Government will privatise Kiwibank. After all, Mr English refused to recapitalise, so the bank had to start borrowing offshore. It was disgraceful. What about privatising Television New Zealand, or even the Department of Conservation. Well, the Government has already done so, to a certain extent, because it is allowing a preferential planting right on Crown land for selected groups. I wonder whether National will accept the advice of its former leader and privatise schools. There is a plan for Mr English and Mr Key: let us make money out of education. Well, let me tell members something. Kiwis are not simply pieces of data on a spreadsheet to be manipulated and manoeuvred in a sick attempt to save a dollar here and a dollar there, at the expense of our long-term future and well-being. We are hard-working mothers and fathers, sisters and brothers, who are struggling at this point in time, and this just makes it worse. We have seen too much of this with the axing of the KiwiSaver contributions, as my colleague the Hon David Cunliffe mentioned. As for adult and community education courses, I ask whether members know that in Napier there will now be no night courses run next year. A total of 6,000 people took night courses in Napier this year, but none will be doing so next year, because there is no money to fund them. Those courses survived for decades, even under the Rt Hon Sir Robert Muldoon, who really stuffed this country up. But at least he understood the value of education. For a lot of people, it is second-chance education. What about the axing of the tertiary incentive allowance, through which the honourable Minister who cut that allowance got her degree. She stood up and said that if it had not been for the tertiary incentive allowance she would not have got her degree. Then she cut it. And now we have a former leader of the National Party appointed to the head of a Government working party called the Productivity Commission. The Prime Minister stated that this report had some nuggets in it. Well, I wonder what those nuggets are. Maybe they are doing away with interest-free student loans or cutting the minimum wage by $100 a week. Imagine that! Imagine cutting the minimum wage by $100 a week. Wow, that is amazing. Or maybe there will be a flat tax structure. That would be great if we earn over $100,000 a year and do not give a damn for ordinary Kiwis. For the vast majority of Kiwis this sort of productivity report is a slap in the face for ordinary, good, hard-working New Zealanders, and the Government should be ashamed of itself. What will we see next year? The whole of New Zealand will hold its breath in anticipation. We will watch the rush to travel agents as Kiwis book their tickets to Australia for a couple of years before coming back to New Zealand once Phil Goff becomes Prime Minister in 2011. The next Labour Prime Minister hasn’t been born yet, Stuart, I am sorry to tell you. I say to Amy Adams that he is a man of integrity, honesty, and substance, and he will make a great Prime Minister. As mentioned, this bill is future-proofing the country for when Kiwis choose to return. This is a sensible arrangement that allows New Zealanders to bring their Australian superannuation funds back into New Zealand and consolidate them under one account. This is a sensible and common-sense measure for a number of reasons, but one of the most compelling is that there is potentially $16.6 billion in lost contributions from New Zealanders working in Australia who under this scheme could come back to New Zealand. Even if a fraction of that money was to come back home, it would have a positive impact. Let us look at the problems that are going on in Australia at the moment. Australia is into its fire season—I think it has 52,000 fires a year—and it has a water shortage problem. Water is our competitive advantage. New Zealand is an oasis. New Zealanders will be coming back in 2011—members should not worry about that. Like I said, if even a fraction of that figure were to return once Labour regains the Treasury benches, it will be good for the country. It is only 2 more years, but those are 2 years too long for many hard-working New Zealanders who are struggling to make ends meet under this Government. Members can imagine the outflow from this country if Don Brash’s suggestion that the minimum wage should drop by $100 a week was one of the nuggets that Mr Key and Mr English liked. That is not a way to achieve parity with Australia, unless parity means emptying out the country of people who simply cannot afford to stay here. As we know, the Australians actually have a compulsory superannuation fund, which makes this bill look like a very attractive proposition for us in New Zealand. In fact, believe it or not, New Zealand used to have a compulsory superannuation fund. So when Mr Foss stands on the other side of the Chamber, looks across here, and says that the Australians seem to have that side of things better sorted than us in New Zealand, he is dead right—they do; they have compulsory superannuation. We used to have compulsory superannuation over here, did we not, I say to Sir Roger. We had compulsory superannuation over here. I ask Sir Roger who designed the scheme that was in place, until a chap called Sir Robert Muldoon—illegally, apparently—abolished it. I ask members to imagine how much better off this country would be if he had not done so. Goodness me—it is unbelievable. We are on the way a second time. The first step, which was implemented by Dr Cullen, Phil Goff, and Labour, was to introduce KiwiSaver, which is very popular. But, true to form, National cut the employer contribution from 4 percent to 2 percent. That is amazing. How will that increase productivity? It will not. I will support this bill going through to the Committee stage. Labour members will go over it with the level of scrutiny that it deserves and that New Zealanders expect. We will end up with the type of robust legislation that New Zealanders came to expect over the 9 years of a Labour Government. However, under this Government they have been let down recently, due to a lack of process and too much urgency resulting in poor legislation. Thank you. RAHUI KATENE (Māori Party—Te Tai Tonga) Link to this A key aspect of this Taxation (Annual Rates, Trans-Tasman Savings Portability, KiwiSaver, and Remedial Matters) Bill is that it completes another chapter in the story of trans-Tasman relations. The relationship between Australia and New Zealand is given another boost with this bill, which gives effect to an agreement signed by the Minister of Finance and the Australian Treasurer on 16 July 2009. In the aftermath of the 2025 Taskforce report and a conservative monthly economic indicator report for November, the bill gives another push to those who already believe that the grass is greener on the other side of the Ditch. The bill allows those with retirement savings in a KiwiSaver scheme and the Australian equivalent to consolidate them into one account in their country of residence, exempt from entry or exit taxes. The bill also amends the rules for KiwiSaver for those in the scheme who permanently emigrate from New Zealand to Australia. But as Tapu Misa wrote so convincingly in yesterday’s New Zealand Herald, it isnot the gap between New Zealand and Australia that we should target; it is the gap between rich and poor in New Zealand. Misa suggests that the gap between rich and poor in New Zealand is actually the gap we should be addressing; it is the gap that holds us back. Yet the 2025 Taskforce had the gall to suggest that in order to close the wage gap with Australia, all we needed to do was to reduce the adult minimum wage to $9 an hour. Such a move would result in a wage cut for half a million low-paid workers of $140 a week. It is not as though we can comfortably accommodate such regressive policy; the Gini coefficient, an internationally recognised measure of income inequality, rose from 26 in 1981 to 31.7 in 2007. Zero in this scale represents perfect equality, whereas 100 is absolute inequality. Set against other nations, New Zealand, when measured against the Gini index for inequality, is ranked sixth worst for inequality. So, with the levels of income equality being as marked as they are, one can understand the enthusiasm that is being expressed for making a number of amendments to the Income Tax Act 2007 and other related legislation, such as the Tax Administration Act 1994 and the KiwiSaver Act 2006. The thinking is that boosting the incomes of mid to high income earners through tax cuts and tax exemptions will create economic benefits that will trickle down to lower-income earners. We call this the trickle-down effect. Just like those infamous buckets in Cuba Mall, the theory is that boosting the incomes of mid to high income earners will create more room for spending, which will create more jobs, which will bring about a greater demand for services, and which will mean that those at the bottom will be supported to climb out of poverty into a better quality of life—except that what we have experienced in recent years in Aotearoa is more like a trickle-up effect, which lands us back in the state of growing income inequalities. This bill aims to take a couple of immediate steps to address the inequalities of income for New Zealanders. One is the enrolment of under-18-year-olds into KiwiSaver. The bill will enable discretionary entry for those under 18 to be amended to allow those who are now under 16 to be enrolled by their legal guardians, and to allow those aged 16 to 17 to co-sign with their legal guardians in order to enrol. In itself this is a good thing, in that it creates an opening and an opportunity for young New Zealanders to respect the savings culture—to invest in their own financial well-being and future. Another related aspect of this is the new relationship between KiwiSaver and the first home purchase. Basically the rules excluding individuals with an interest or past interest in a leasehold estate, such as having their name on a rental lease agreement, are amended so that they are eligible for first-home withdrawal. We have been particularly interested in the opportunities for Māori to benefit from any initiatives that can address the lower levels of Māori homeownership. One of the greatest tragedies during the time of the previous Government was watching the decline in the homeownership rate amongst Māori, with the proportion of Māori who own their homes falling from 61.4 percent in 1991 to 45.2 percent in 2006. Māori Housing Trends 2008 reported that Māori had been hit by the same challenges as other New Zealanders who have found that property prices and rents have got out of reach in recent years. So it has been really exciting that the Māori Party has been able to work alongside the Minister of Housing with a whole bunch of initiatives to help Māori first-home buyers, such as streamlining the Resource Management Act and the Building Act to make building cheaper, reducing taxes so that there is more take-home pay to service the mortgage, and keeping interest rates under control through better Government spending at a time when interest rates might otherwise rise as the economy recovers. These are all important steps in our economic recovery, but there are other initiatives in train, including this one related to KiwiSaver. The Māori Party is also proud of the developments associated with the Housing Innovation Fund, particularly in extending the scheme to make it available for new builds and for buying a first home on multiple-owned Māori land. The opportunity for first-home withdrawal is a positive amendment to the tax law that we hope will pave the way for more Māori to own their own homes. There are some other interesting amendments in the legislation. Cure Kids is added to the list of charitable donee organisations in schedule 32 of the Income Tax Act 2007. This enables donors to obtain a tax deduction on their donations to Cure Kids—previously known as the Child Health Research Foundation—which was established over 30 years ago to address the lack of research into life-threatening childhood illnesses in New Zealand. We are talking about illnesses like asthma, childhood diabetes, childhood heart problems, liver diseases, and spina bifida—all areas in which Māori and Pasifika children are disproportionately overrepresented. Then there are amendments to the gift duty exemptions. The bill exempts the following gifts from gift duty: gifts to local or central government bodies, gifts to donee organisations, and gifts of property made via a court order under the Law Reform (Testamentary Promises) Act 1949 or the Family Protection Act 1955, which will apply retrospectively from 24 May 1999. All of these measures are perfectly legitimate, valid ways of making changes to the tax laws, and, as such, they give us grounds to support this bill. But I cannot leave this debate without raising again the need to do better in addressing inequality. In The Spirit Level, which was produced this year by Richard Wilkinson and Kate Pickett, the authors suggest that in highly unequal countries like New Zealand, the cost is almost always high rates of social dysfunction. They draw upon more than 30 years of data to demonstrate that in an unequal society there are more people in prison; there is more violence; more people suffer from ill health, mental illness, or drug or alcohol addiction; there is more adult and childhood obesity; there are increased infant mortality, homicides, and teenage births; and educational outcomes and performance are lower. If anyone is under any illusion that this tax bill will address those issues of profound inequality, I would caution against it. But that does not mean we should abdicate all responsibility for change. We must do something to address rising food prices and the impact that that has on the ability of those in low-income households to purchase healthy food, by exempting this food from the goods and services tax. That is the substance of the next member’s bill that I will be submitting, and I would appreciate members’ support for it. The other wider issue, of course, is the need to include broader economic measures, such as unemployment and income levels, with growth measured using a genuine progress index. The Māori Party will vote for this bill to go through to a select committee today, and we look forward to the future discussions on it. Kia ora. AMY ADAMS (National—Selwyn) Link to this I am happy to take a call in the first reading debate on the Taxation (Annual Rates, Trans-Tasman Savings Portability, KiwiSaver, and Remedial Matters) Bill. Although the debate has been reasonably wide ranging this afternoon, it is probably worth coming back to the fact that the provisions in this bill are reasonably simple, straightforward, non-controversial, I would suggest, and, from what I can garner, very well supported in the House. Those provisions are very simple, really. The main provision is around the portability of superannuation savings between Australia and New Zealand. It will take us a step closer to that common, single economic market between us and our closest neighbour and friend. I think that is an important point, because a huge amount of money gets left behind, lost, and disassociated from its owners in superannuation schemes, particularly in Australia, which has had a history of compulsory superannuation. Those schemes have a vast pool of money that does not find its way back to its appropriate owners. There is a good chance that a large chunk of that money relates to New Zealanders who have done some work in Australia, come back here to live, and really forgotten about it or lost track of it. This bill will allow New Zealanders coming home to consolidate their financial affairs in New Zealand, bring that money back, put it into their KiwiSaver scheme, and run their retirement savings through one pool, which is very sensible. It is a good initiative, and certainly one I support. The bill also confirms the annual tax rates and makes important remedial changes to the KiwiSaver provision, specifically and most important to how it applies to those aged under 18—getting them into the scheme, whose consent is required, the deductions from PAYE where child rates apply and the like, and a number of other tidy-up measures. The only other point that I wanted to touch on—and I did hear the Minister talk about this in his opening remarks—is the removal of gift duty for gifts made to donee organisations, which is income tax language for charities. That is a very important step forward, because for too long a gift to charity has certainly been deductible for income tax purposes, but if one was not careful it would attract gift duty if one managed to cross the threshold of $27,000 a year. That is a significant barrier to large-scale donations to charities. It is a provision that I could never see the sense in, and I am very pleased that it has been picked up on and addressed in this bill. I hope that encourages New Zealanders in their philanthropic efforts. It is a good bill and I commend it to the House. Hon DAVID PARKER (Labour) Link to this As prior speakers on behalf of the Labour Party have no doubt already said, Labour will be supporting the Taxation (Annual Rates, Trans-Tasman Savings Portability, KiwiSaver, and Remedial Matters) Bill to the select committee. We are particularly pleased to see that the KiwiSaver provisions introduced by the previous Labour Government have led to an arrangement being possible with the Australian Government for the portability of savings under Australian superannuation schemes, so that they can be brought back home to New Zealand KiwiSaver compliant schemes. It is interesting to reflect upon the divergence of the New Zealand and Australian economies in the last few decades, particularly given some of the, I think, simplistic analysis by the 2025 Taskforce, which was chaired, of course, by Dr Don Brash. The big difference between New Zealand and Australia over the last three decades is when it comes to savings. The Australians save well; New Zealanders do not. Australians have been saving for their retirement for decades; New Zealanders have not been. Indeed, if any member in this House can speak authoritatively on that issue, I would have to say it is Sir Roger Douglas. Sir Roger introduced into this House in 1972—I think, from talking to him recently; I had to check with him for the exact date—a private member’s bill. He was in Opposition at that stage, in the Labour Party. The bill introduced compulsory superannuation savings in New Zealand. Not long thereafter a Labour Government was elected, and that Labour Government introduced—again, using the model that Sir Roger Douglas had developed—compulsory superannuation savings in New Zealand. Those compulsory savings were used by the National Party under the Rt Hon Sir Robert Muldoon as the cornerstone of its campaign against the Labour Party at the following election. He did a couple of things that were terrible. Members will remember the “reds under the bed” cartoons—or, I should say, the dancing Cossacks cartoons—and the talk that the whole of New Zealand was, according to Sir Robert Muldoon and the then National Government, going to end up owned by the superannuation scheme, and that therefore it was a bad thing to do. National promised that if it was re-elected, it would axe the scheme and would give everyone the money back. Indeed, Sir Robert Muldoon encouraged people to stop making contributions to the superannuation scheme, despite the fact that the law remained on the books of the country. As a consequence, he was successfully taken to court, in what is still a notable case, Fitzgerald v Muldoon. Mr Fitzgerald took the Prime Minister of New Zealand to court for ignoring the laws of this land in telling people that they did not have to comply with the requirements of compulsory superannuation. That is a big difference that has arisen between the fortunes of Australia and New Zealand. For the three decades since then, we have not had settled superannuation policy on any long-term or durable basis, and we as New Zealanders have not saved enough. We have spent too much and we have not saved enough. The most recent recurrence of this terrible trend in New Zealand of National Governments unwinding the positive moves towards better provision for long-term savings for superannuation and investment capital for new or expanding enterprises in New Zealand is, of course, the current Government. The current Government has relied upon KiwiSaver to achieve the advances that are referred to in this bill in terms of the portability of superannuation from Australia into New Zealand. Those advances would not have occurred but for the KiwiSaver scheme. The KiwiSaver scheme is sufficiently similar to the Australian scheme that the Australians have been convinced that there should be portability, and that the superannuation savings under Australian schemes should be able to be converted into KiwiSaver. Of course, KiwiSaver in itself is less effective than it was. The savings deficit in New Zealand is significant. New Zealanders need to save a lot more. KiwiSaver gave significant tax credits to employers, which eased for them the transition into contributing to the savings of their employees. Employers got a contribution by way of a tax credit to the amount that they were spending on their employee’s savings. The employee was required in response to save 4 percent of his or her earnings. The inducements to the employee included tax benefits to the employee. So through the combination of the tax credits to the employer and the tax benefits to the employee, droves of New Zealanders were beginning to save 4 percent of their income, plus 4 percent matched by their employer over time. That has been halved by the current Government. In doing so, the current Government also removed the tax credit to employers, so if the employer is now contributing, it is at a real cost to him or her, and there will be less encouragement from employers for employees to begin to save for their retirement and to reverse the long-term trend in New Zealand of insufficient savings. Those insufficient savings show up most transparently in our current account deficit. Year by year, New Zealand gets poorer as we sell more of ourselves to overseas lenders. That is essentially what a current account deficit does. Except to the extent that the additional capital that is coming into the country goes into productive investment, the rest of it is consumed, and in New Zealand the majority of it is consumed. As a country, we get poorer and poorer to the extent of our current account deficit, which is largely consumed. That reflects the fact that we spend more than we earn and we do not save enough. As a consequence, our country gets poorer and poorer year by year. Although the Government has been saying that it will reverse that, and that it will cause the next round of economic growth in New Zealand to be in the productive export sector, the tradable sector—be it primary produce or manufactured goods and services—the reality is different. The growth we are now starting to see in New Zealand is actually from the re-inflation of the Auckland property market. We are seeing an increase in residential housing activity. We are not seeing the increase in export-related investment that we need to cure our current account deficit. In part, that is because the competitive investment capital is not available to our businesses at competitive international rates. In part, it is because we have a volatile exchange rate. Neither of those issues are fixed by this legislation, but Labour will, none the less, support the bill being referred to a select committee, because it is good that we at last have some vestige of savings policy in New Zealand through KiwiSaver that is being recognised by the Australian Government as sufficiently good to allow reciprocity, or conversion of Australian-based superannuation into New Zealand schemes. Other changes made in this bill are supported by the Opposition. Indeed, I think we did some of the preliminary work under the Hon Peter Dunne, who held the same role in the previous Government, relating to gifts to charities, and to the removal of gift duty consequences for larger gifts to charities. That seems to be a desirable thing to do, as well. In closing, I say that Labour supports the bill being referred to a select committee, but it laments the fact that KiwiSaver is not as good as it could be. Hon Sir ROGER DOUGLAS (ACT) Link to this I want to take up some of the points that the Hon David Parker has talked about. But before I do, I just wanted to say that although all of us recognise that the Taxation (Annual Rates, Trans-Tasman Savings Portability, KiwiSaver, and Remedial Matters) Bill is necessary, essentially what it is doing is fiddling while Rome burns. What we as a Parliament are doing is essentially borrowing the equivalent of a hospital every week, and we intend to go on for 4 years borrowing $250 million a week, or a hospital a week. Frankly, that is unsustainable. The fact is that if we come back to retirement—and I think if we are talking about superannuation, we cannot actually talk just simply about superannuation; we have to talk about retirement—the cost there is not simply superannuation; it is also healthcare in retirement, which is getting more and more costly. If we look at this year’s Budget, if we look even at provisions in this bill, we find that 60c in every dollar of personal tax that each and every one of us here and throughout New Zealand pay goes to the retired. It costs $1 in every $3 of personal taxation to meet the superannuation costs of the retired. It cost 27c in the dollar of every dollar of personal tax to meet the healthcare costs. That is 60c in the dollar, and we have a retired population of around only 12 or 13 percent. When that gets over 20 percent, this country will be bankrupt unless we do something about it. I do not believe that any of the political parties in this Chamber have a policy that would help get us out of that. Our Māori Party member, Rahui Katene, who spoke in this debate, talked about inequality. Although I agree with her, I do not agree with the cure. Let us take superannuation, for example. The present superannuation scheme is unfair. It is certainly unfair to Māori. Māori enter the workforce generally at a younger age than most New Zealanders do. They therefore work longer in the workforce than most New Zealanders do. In other words, they are paying more taxes over their working lives, yet they die at an earlier age on average and get nothing. Only a superannuation scheme that is fully funded meets their requirements and the requirements of many others on low incomes. The same is true in other areas like education and health. That is why I advocated the other day in a paper that I published that the first $600 of income a week should be tax free, giving around $6,500 extra a year in people’s pay packets. But if people took that tax reduction, they had the responsibility to buy their accident and sickness cover, their health cover, and to save for their own retirement. The fact is that if the average person did that over his or her working life, he or she would be likely to retire with somewhere between $800,000 and $1,000,000 in the bank. Certainly, that would be better for low-income earners, often Māori, and Pacific Islanders. It is time for this country to actually take stock. The thought that this Government is going to borrow the equivalent of a hospital a week for the next 4 years makes me shudder. We can fix it. The paper that I put out demonstrates how we can fix it if we are prepared to make some necessary changes. It is true that this Government inherited a mess from the previous Labour Government—there is no doubt about that. But at the end of the day, it does not matter who created the mess. This Government has the responsibility to deal with it. Labour will not recover for a long time from the fact that over and above inflation, it increased Government spending by about $18 billion a year. PESETA SAM LOTU-IIGA (National—Maungakiekie) Link to this I rise to support the Taxation (Annual Rates, Trans-Tasman Savings Portability, KiwiSaver, and Remedial Matters) Bill. In July this year, despite the sideshows presented by the Opposition, the Hon Bill English and the Hon Wayne Swann signed a memorandum of understanding to establish a trans-Tasman retirement savings portability scheme. That scheme, as many have already mentioned today, opens the way for New Zealanders to return home from Australia and bring their retirement savings with them. New Zealanders who have lived in Australia—and I include myself in that group—will be able to bring home their savings, which are currently invested in Australian superannuation funds and Australian businesses, and invest them in New Zealand businesses and New Zealand infrastructure. This bill will enable the exchange of funds. Of course, some will take their KiwiSaver savings and transport them to an Australian fund, but, given the history of New Zealanders working in Australia and those who are now returning to live in New Zealand, given the change of Government, and given the optimism that this National Government has brought to this country, the flow of those funds will undoubtedly be greater from Australia to New Zealand. As the previous speaker, the Hon Sir Roger Douglas, mentioned, this bill will not solve all our problems. I do not believe Rome is burning. But the bill is consistent with the raft of other legislation that we are putting in place to make it easier for businesses to raise capital and for funds to invest in the rundown infrastructure of this country. It will make it easier to create a single trans-Tasman market, not just for goods and services but also for labour and a number of other investments that cross between our two countries. Some of the details of the bill will be discussed in the Finance and Expenditure Committee and throughout our deliberations. Key points are that the transfer of funds is voluntary, and that the transfer between New Zealand and Australia will be exempt from any taxes, which I think is particularly important. The amounts that are transferred between the two countries will not be available for investment in a third country. I support this bill and look forward to its implementation, and we expect that to occur in the second half of 2010. The bill will assist us through the hard edges of the recession, and I look forward to working through it with the select committee in the coming months. Thank you. Hon CLAYTON COSGROVE (Labour—Waimakariri) Link to this As my colleague David Parker said, Labour will be supporting this bill to the select committee. This is an interesting debate, because it is indeed rich with irony. This is the first bill on superannuation matters that National, in Government, has brought to the House that is positive. The other bills that have been brought forward involved the suspension for 10 years of the pre-funding payments to the Cullen fund, and pulling the rug out from under the, at the time, 1.2 million Kiwis who had signed up to KiwiSaver, by gutting the Government contribution. Then we have this bill, in the name of the Hon Peter Dunne. I note that as a member of the previous Government he supported the building of those two funds, both KiwiSaver and the Cullen fund, as it is colloquially known, and now supports the actions taken by the current Government. But now, of course, we have a bill that is positive: the Taxation (Annual Rates, Trans-Tasman Savings Portability, KiwiSaver, and Remedial Matters) Bill. I refer to the trans-Tasman portability provisions: KiwiSaver to there, and Australian superannuation funds to here. Yes, I agree that it is a positive outcome. The other irony in this debate is that we heard from Sir Roger Douglas. I pay tribute to him for putting in place, under the Kirk Government, a superannuation scheme on which, if we had it today, we might be debating, in this bill, the portability aspects of the legislation, but we probably would not be having debates about some of the ills that Sir Roger and others have talked about, in terms of people’s retirement savings and a lack of a savings culture, because we would have had that fund, well ahead, I would have said—I think it was about a decade or 12 years ahead—of when the Australians decided they would embark on a compulsory superannuation scheme. I remember that Paul Keating as Treasurer took heaps. I think from memory it was 1987 or slightly earlier when he introduced that scheme. It took heaps, but I think for only about 3 or 4 years. I worked in Australia in the mining industry for a number of years, and I remember asking people about the history of superannuation because it was a new experience for me to be paying into a compulsory superannuation scheme. Of course, for the Australians it is death, taxes, and superannuation—nobody cares. It is just what they do; it is the appropriate thing to do. The Howard Government fiddled with it in the mid-1990s, in the same way. He pulled part of the rug. He did not pull the whole carpet and the underlay out from under people, as Muldoon did in 1975, as Bolger did in the 1990s, and as Shipley did. Ironically, it was the current finance Minister, as he was then as well, I believe, who cut superannuation to our superannuitants and senior citizens three times. Then we come to today, and we face a Government that has suspended payments to the Cullen fund. It has done it all again in the typical Tory way—not only fiddled with superannuation but gutted superannuation. Bill English said there is no economic literacy. What was the exact quote? He said: “National says that borrowing to save is economic illiteracy.” That was from Bill English. He has carried on that wonderful tradition that he started in the 1990s, that Muldoon started in the 1970s. Every time a National Government gets into power, it guts superannuation. If the pre-funding is suspended for 10 years, we will never recover from that. He has decided, for political purposes, to pass the cost of superannuation on to the next generation. His legacy, in terms of preparing and planning for this country to have a viable savings plan, is to suspend it. Ironically, the Cullen fund recently made $2 billion, so was it economic illiteracy, as he puts it? Does he still hold the view that it is economic illiteracy to save for one’s retirement? I suspect that that will be the legacy of this Government. Chris Tremain Link to this To borrow to save. Hon CLAYTON COSGROVE Link to this If that is the case, then New Zealanders with a mortgage—because I know that that member who interjects is a real estate agent—would never make any contribution to their superannuation retirement savings, because they are borrowing on the other side of the ledger. They would not do that, would they? It does not add up. That member on the other side is fired up. As I said before, that is the history of the National Government, from Muldoon to Bolger—remember it? “I won’t alter the age, no ifs, no buts, no maybes, from 60 to 65.”—to Shipley, and English as it was then, who cut the pension three times, refused to inflation-proof it, reversed all those things we did in Government, reversed the lot. We set up the Cullen fund, put it to 65 and then 66 percent, no less, of the average wage, gave our elderly folk security in retirement, and set out the social contract for those who are working now, with an expectation of what they had to do in order to meet their retirement savings. Those Kiwis also stepped up to the plate, 1.2 million of them and counting, as they signed up to KiwiSaver to make their contribution. The Government put in, the employer put in, and, as I say, we set up the so-called Cullen fund to pre-fund superannuation. Most of that has been gutted by this Government. So this debate has a touch of irony, as we have the original architect of a compulsory superannuation scheme, Sir Roger Douglas in the 1970s, contributing to this debate, and as we have over there the man Bill English who, as finance Minister, aided and abetted by Jenny Shipley, and in the Bolger Government, was responsible for all the savage cuts to superannuation and the increase in the age. We have the irony of this being the first bill in respect of superannuation that has any positive effect that has been brought to this House by that Government—portability. I suspect that other speakers are right—there will be people on both sides of the Tasman who will exercise their rights to transfer their funds and will now look at this in a very positive way. I say to Peter Dunne that I wonder whether he feels irony in this debate, as a person who, under a Labour Government, contributed very, very positively and advocated very, very strongly for the Cullen fund and for KiwiSaver—and I pay tribute to him for that—yet who now sits in a Government that has basically unravelled what I think he believes in most. I do believe he has honourable intentions in respect of these policy issues. He believed in them, he backed them, and he advocated for them. The sad thing is that that Minister sits in a Government that has torn them all asunder. I wonder whether he senses the note of history or irony in this debate. What this Government is doing—although this bill is positive—is basically sending a bill to the next generation to pay for their superannuation. The policy platform does not encourage savings. In fact, it undermines them, as the Government has ripped out and halved the Government and employer contributions and has taken away some of the incentives. Yet Kiwis will still sign up, because Kiwis have worked out that they have to make some provision. But this is the way National has acted throughout its history, since the 1970s. I know that Mr Gilmore, being the fountain of knowledge on all things—and he may have done history in his undergraduate degree—will know that I am correct. If he looks up his encyclopaedias or flicks on to the Internet he will know. He could Google “Muldoon and superannuation”, or “Bolger and superannuation”, or “Shipley and superannuation”, or “Bill English and superannuation”, and he would see that every time his party got into power it did nothing but undermine, pull apart, and crash and burn any savings culture in this country. So it is with a touch of irony and history that we do deal with, I think, a positive bill, which we will support. This is the first piece of superannuation legislation—ironically, it was brought in by Peter Dunne—that does anything positive for Kiwis both in this country and on the other side of the Tasman. They will come back. Government members talk about a legacy. They had left to them a legacy of a Cullen fund making money, of a KiwiSaver scheme set up with huge support from New Zealanders. A platform and a savings culture was being established, and within months the new Government decided to pull the pin on it. So Bill English has lived up to his National Party roots and his legacy. He will go down in history, along with Bolger, Shipley, and Muldoon, and the others, whose greatest impact on New Zealanders’ lives was to pull the rug out from under them in respect of their retirement savings. AARON GILMORE (National) Link to this That was a wonderful bit of rhetoric from the member for Waimakariri, the Hon Clayton Cosgrove. Maybe it was a deputy leadership challenge. I think the Taxation (Annual Rates, Trans-Tasman Savings Portability, KiwiSaver, and Remedial Matters) Bill is all about some wonderful steps. I think it is great that the member for Waimakariri thinks that the former National Prime Ministers are super. I think it is great that he thinks they are super, but I will talk about another super man. Bill English, who is in the House, has done a wonderful job of putting in place some wonderful portability around KiwiSaver. When I was born, New Zealand had a higher per capita income than Australia. Since that time, we have gone backwards. This bill will allow somewhere in the region of $15 billion to $16 billion, as I understand it, sitting in Australia right now to come home. Some of the tens of thousands of Kiwis who, since the last election a year ago, have decided to come home will be able to bring their capital to New Zealand and invest in the things that are here in New Zealand. I think that is a wonderful thing. We welcome them home. Whether they are seniors or young people, wherever they come from, we welcome them home. They are coming home in droves because what they want is a John Key - led National Government, and they are very happy to come here. They want to bring their investments home. Our Government is focused on issues of growth, but the member who just resumed his seat, Clayton Cosgrove, talked about the vagaries of history. I do not care, really, about the history; I care about the future. The other thing I want to talk about is the fact that the portability of KiwiSaver will allow some people to bring money here. The member has worked in Australia. One of our members who spoke earlier worked in Australia. They have money tied up in superannuation schemes there, and they can bring it home in KiwiSaver, and that money can then be used to invest in and grow New Zealand businesses. I want to touch on one other aspect of this bill that no one has spoken about, and that is the technical issue around non-resident oil-rig operations. This country is mineral-rich. We have spoken a lot about Australia and Australia’s wealth. Well, our third-biggest export last year was oil, despite what people believe. This bill will push out for a bit longer some of the exemptions that the oil rig operators have. At the moment there are two oil rigs drilling off the coast of Taranaki, and I expect there will be more in the next 6 months. There is something like $1 billion being invested in oil rig drilling operations over the next 6 months, and some of them will be successful. That will allow us to grow our economy faster and catch up with Australia. That is all I want to touch on. I look forward to further debate at the select committee.

Product Details Scribner, May 2007 eBook, 288 pages ISBN-10: 1416539336 ISBN-13: 9781416539339 Read an ExcerptChapter 1 CHAPTER 1 Prospect. Ten minutes later he got on the mobile to his wife. "Well, there seem to be several houses here that might suit, going by the descriptions." "You can't," said Felicity. "I know. There are lies, damned lies and estate agents' brochures," he said. "Trouble is, you only get to plumb the depths of their deceptions when you've actually lived in the places they've sold for a few months." "And it doesn't help that we're looking for two places rather than just one." Driving off on a circuit of inspections of exteriors mapped out for him by the maligned estate agents, Charlie echoed Felicity's words. His attaining the rank of inspector some months earlier had coincided with a proposal from his father-in-law, who, on the first hint that the new job might enable Charlie and Felicity to move out of Leeds, had decided that he needed to move in with or close to them. "Close to," Charlie had said firmly. "Not in with." "Not on your life," Felicity had agreed. "I'm not going to be his dogsbody." She knew her father through and through, of course. Rupert Coggenhoe had used people (notably his wife) throughout his life, and Felicity knew that old age would not change him, though she felt twinges of guilt at the thought that the only thing that would change him was by now fairly close. He had made a respectable living writing novels in a variety of genres, effortlessly shifting styles without ever becoming a complete master in any one of them. He had explained to his daughter and son-in-law that his cottage -- a kind of super-cottage, with various extensions at the back, to which he had moved from Luton when he had come into a windfall legacy from a great-aunt -- would fetch around four hundred thousand pounds, a tribute to the enduring appeal of the West Country. He proposed to part-finance his daughter and son-in-law's purchase of a house for their growing family. The only catch was that the house had to have a granny flat, or to be near some other, smaller property which he would purchase for himself. "To which you will be called to cook, clean, garden and hold his awful old hand," said Charlie, not scared of seeming ungrateful when in his opinion so little gratitude was called for. "Just not possible," said Felicity complacently. "I won't be able to leave Carola and Little Fetus." Little Fetus was growing, but they had not tried to learn its sex, so had not given it a proper name. "Could be Evelyn," said Felicity. "Or Hilary or Lesley. Do for either sex." "Evelyn Peace," said Charlie, turning up his nose. "Sounds like a writer of soppy verse." The tour around Slepton Edge, which he'd thought of as a typical small village but which probably housed about two thousand inhabitants, took nearly half an hour. He discarded the few properties with granny flats, not because they were too small, though they were, but because he didn't want his father-in-law so near. Then he started sifting through the rest, noting down the properties he would like to live in that had another, smaller property fairly near that was also for sale. His father-in-law's property in Devon was of the sort that had roses and hollyhocks peeping through its earholes, arsehole and all intermediate orifices. Charlie had taken an instant dislike to it the one time he visited it, at the time of his mother-in-law's funeral. He thought a farmhand's two-up, two-down was not going to be suitable for the old fraud in a few years' time, so he preferred to set his sights on a modern bungalow, with or without roses and hollyhocks. It was a sensible and achievable objective, and he drove back to the center of the village with three pairs of properties he wanted to view the insides of. He came out of Blackett and Podmore's with all the arrangements having been made: he and Felicity would view all the bungalows the next evening, since it was obviously useless to see any property on his own, especially as he was not prepared to shoulder sole responsibility if the choice proved a disaster. Felicity's more (but not particularly) domestic eye was needed to adjudicate on the pluses and minuses of all the prospective dwellings. Vital that she have her say before and not after the decision. Something was going on in the center of Slepton Edge as he drove back into town. He had noticed a long, gangling, youngish man with a shy but eager smile busying himself there when he'd first been to the agents'. Now the young man had taken over the little central area of the square, where a monument to the Marquis of Wakefield, a local benefactor, was sited. A tiny stage -- hardly more than a soapbox -- had been erected in front of the statue, and a microphone, with wires leading to a generator, was attached to its front. The gangling man was testing it as Charlie watched, helped by a pregnant woman of about his own age -- early thirties, Charlie estimated -- and by a little group of supporters. Perhaps more surprising, a knot of listeners was already clustering on the pavements on either side of the square -- smiling, greeting each other, waiting for things to start. It was very unlike an election. In any case there was no general election going on, and so far as Charlie knew no by-election either: the police were always on the alert during a by-election, but particularly since so many of the Northern ones had a candidate fielded by the British National Party with rabidly racist programs and literature. His musings were interrupted by the man's first words booming into the crowd. "You all know there's an election on. For the first time people in this area can vote as to who should become mayor of Halifax. And I think most of you know that I'm a candidate." There was applause -- more than polite, in fact decidedly warm. Charlie had got over his surprise. Elections for mayor, on the American model, had been on the cards for three or four years now, depending on the choice of the area. Presumably the people -- or perhaps the bigwigs -- of Halifax, in which Slepton Edge was situated, had decided to try having an elected mayor. As a rule the mayor was at best a useful local representative of many years' standing in local government, or at worst a party hack due for an empty honor as his reward before retirement. The good voters of Halifax or their elected representatives must have decided to go for something a bit more colorful and out of the ordinary. "You know who I am, but the people around us, in Halifax, for example, won't know. And I won't be able to say, 'I'm your Labour candidate,' or 'your Conservative candidate.' That's very useful, that is: it's like saying, 'Don't vote for me, vote for my label.' We've been doing that for too long. If you vote for me you'll be voting for a person, not a label. Who am I? Well, I'm a doctor, and that's what you'll be voting for, even though I'm not practicing at the moment. I was for seven years a consultant in ear, nose and throat complaints at a big hospital. Before that I'd been in general practice. Then I gave it all up. I thought I was taking a holiday, but in fact I was signing up for a new way of life. I was tired of what was happening in the Health Service." There was a smattering of applause at this, and "So are we all" came from one man. "It wasn't a matter of money. That's part of the problem, but only a part. I was fed up with quick fixes. Is there a waiting list? Lower the average time a patient has with his specialist to five minutes. Slice one category of patients off the list. If these don't work, just fiddle the figures. Is the drug bill too high? Notice they say 'drugs,' not 'medicines.' Drugs sounds vaguely nasty, something we should avoid. All right, stop doctors prescribing the new, expensive drugs. Say certain conditions shouldn't be treated at all. Charge the patient market prices for his care. I got out because we don't have a Health Service anymore. We have a confidence trick based on the quick fix and the clever fiddle." Charlie was by now out of his car and listening intently. The crowd had grown, was genial, supportive and being friendly back whenever the man made a friendly move toward them. He was not an orator. Charlie had often marveled that men like Hitler and Mussolini, mediocre of mind and unprepossessing of body, could by means of that black art which is mass oratory be transformed into vehicles of destruction. But this man just talked to his audience -- no ego trip, no mesmerism. Yet in ten minutes he had them in the palms of his hands. They admired him. In a way they seemed to love him. What a wonderful thing! And what a dangerous one! "Think!" the man went on, clearly drawing to a conclusion. "We've had real, independent men in our Parliament since the last two elections. We need more. And we need many, many more in local government. That shouldn't be a party thing at all. We want men who consider issues, think them through, and when they've come to a conclusion work to bring a better state of affairs about. We want men who are their own men, and women who are their own women. Vote for me!" All this was done with half a smile on his face, perhaps to show that he was serious but not too serious. When he finished there was a respectably enthusiastic cheer and a lot of applause. He got down from his improvised platform and started mingling with the small crowd. Charlie watched him curiously. It became clear that he knew almost all of them. He heard him greeting people by their Christian names. A genuinely local man, then, he guessed. And other locals were willing to stand in the chill October sunshine to listen to him, then linger around to talk to him. Charlie got back into his car and put his key in the ignition. Then, on an impulse, he changed his mind. He waited -- watching the people disappear to homes, shops and pubs. The man went back to the pregnant woman still beside the platform, and together, with help from the two assistants, they began to pack up the sound equipment. Charlie waited until they were finished, then got out of the car and went over to them. The man saw him, and smiled a candidate's smile of greeting. "I thought electioneering speeches were a thing of the past," Charlie said. "So were independent candidates," said the man. "But they're making a modest comeback, and I'm trying to give an extra shove. I'm Chris Carlson, by the way." Charlie's glance went to the election poster on a stick which had been turned away from his car when the man was speaking. "Or Dr. Chris Carlson," Charlie said. The man shrugged good-humoredly. "Once a doctor, always a doctor," he said. "Why throw away a good selling point?" said the woman beside him. "I'm Alison Carlson. The wife." "I'm Charlie Peace." "And are you thinking of coming to live here?" asked Dr. Carlson. "I saw you coming out of the estate agents'." "Maybe. This is one of the places we're looking at. But I don't expect we'll be in time to vote for you." "Never mind. That wasn't why I asked. I'm serious about standing for mayor, but I'm not desperate to get elected. How about a cup of tea and a muffin? Alison has to get home and rest, and I'm always interested in a new face." "Sure," said Charlie, with that feeling familiar to policemen of being glad to be wanted. They raised their hands to Alison and the other two helpers storing the equipment away in an old car, then crossed the road toward a tearoom called the Hot Muffin. "Only started up three months ago," said Dr. Chris. "I think she's struggling a bit. Hello, Hilda, this is -- sorry, I've forgotten your name." "Charlie Peace." "He's thinking of moving here." She showed them to a table, and they began poring over their menus. "Moving here with wife? With kids, perhaps?" "Yes, both. One little girl and another unspecified on the way." "And you want to move out of the city? Yes, I thought so. We've got one on the way too, as you'll have noticed. It's like a reward, or maybe a benediction. I say, we could betroth the two at birth, like in a Dickens novel -- if they turn out to be of different sex, of course." "Sounds like a recipe for disaster," said Charlie. "Anyway, if our Carola is anything to go by it wouldn't work. She decides everything -- and I mean everything -- for herself. She might consider a suggestion, but she'd never accept dictation . . . Why did you say your sprog would be a reward or a benediction?" Dr. Chris turned to Hilda and ordered tea and hot muffins. "Benediction for giving up the practice of medicine. People sometimes suggest it was irresponsible or worse. But the sprog is like someone is saying, 'You did the right thing.' Actually, what it really means, I suppose, is that we both became more relaxed, certainly more happy, and simply had more time. Giving up work -- that work -- has been like a liberation. It's as if I was a new person, and that applies to Alison too. The fact that I've slipped my fetters means an entirely new sort of life for her." "You're never going back?" He shrugged, suggesting genuine uncertainty. "Not so far as I know -- certainly not in the immediate future." "What do you do with your time?" "What time? No, I'm joking, but it all does seem to get filled. I do all sorts of things. Mostly I paint. I hadn't had a paintbrush in my hand for years -- not since my first long vacation from medical school. But I've always loved it. I'm not good, don't think that. But I'm a good amateur, and my landscapes strike a chord in your average art fancier who knows what he likes." "So you make a living out of it?" "I'm just starting to. I take them round the classy shopping malls, have little exhibitions in Harrogate, Ilkley, places like that. We'll not starve when the little one comes." "With a nice lot stashed away from your time as consultant," said Charlie dryly. Chris laughed. "My complaint was never about the pay. What's wrong with the Health Service is the deal that patients are getting." "And everyone here knows you're a doctor, I notice." "Oh yes." "And they come to you with their little ailments and worries?" "How did you know?" "I'm a policeman. We're experts at spotting the obvious. No, that's not true. In fact, we have to really struggle to know what ordinary people do, because we usually see people who are at the worst end of 'ordinary.' But I could see you were sympathetic and approachable with the crowd outside. Of course they'd bring you their troubles." "I squared it with the local group of GPs," said Chris, as if he needed to apologize. "It takes from their shoulders a lot of visits from people who just want to talk things over, want to be reassured that their little pains in the area of the heart, their twinges in the back, are not signals to give up the struggle for living. And I sometimes alert them to something that might be serious, and make the sufferer go along to see them. If I say they need to get something checked up, they generally go." "I'm sure they do. You're persuasive." "And what about you? Are you a persuasive policeman?" Charlie laughed. It wasn't a question he'd ever been asked. "I'm not sure persuasion is a weapon we use very much. Mild bullying, tricking, threatening . . . Oh, I do a job of work that is much less salubrious than yours." "Still, I expect people here would be quite pleased to have another policeman living among them." "Maybe. I hope I can be an off-duty one. I haven't actually spoken to anyone yet apart from you. Felicity and I are viewing some places tomorrow night." "Remember people here are a little conservative. Don't be too harsh on them." Charlie understood at once what he meant. "Believe me, I know all the range of facial expressions of people who open their doors to a black face: everything from shock-horror to pleased anticipation. I've learned not to pay too much attention to initial reactions over the years." "Forgive me. Of course you have. I don't suppose there's anything I could teach you about black-white relations." Charlie's face showed amusement rather than anger. "Felicity is white, by the way. That helps. You might think it would be the reverse, but I think the white person provides a sort of way into the situation for the kind of person who lives in a place like Slepton. We shall bring my father-in-law with us if we come here, though I'm not sure he'd be much use in a sticky racial situation." "So you've got three generations living together. That's good of you." "Not living together, and not good of us at all. He's going to buy a separate house, and he's helping us with our mortgage. Don't sentimentalize us, and don't sentimentalize him. My father-in-law is a selfish, clinging, narcissistic and emotionally blood-sucking apology for a father." He looked around the sparsely patronized tearoom. "One of the appeals of this place may turn out to be the predominantly elderly population, which will give him a circle to drop into. The fact that he's a writer will help that." "Oh really? What does he write?" "Everything. Anything he thinks will sell. He's also bitterly resentful that he's never been a bestseller. Among his pseudonyms are Jed Parker and Chantalle Derivaux, which gives you an idea of his range. If we can get some people reading his books, and if they will tell him how much they enjoyed them, which they usually do with authors, then things may go swimmingly. Disraeli should have said, 'Everyone enjoys flattery, and when it comes to authors you should lay it on with a trowel.'" Charlie got up. "It's time I was making a move." "Must you go? I'm enjoying this conversation." "And I'm on duty. I'll have to disguise this break by pretending I was investigating whether there is a British National Party presence at this election." "There isn't. They probably don't think the job of mayor is one of sufficient power to justify their muscling in on it. And of course in this country it isn't." "Why are you standing then?" "Shall we say for a bit of fun? Though that's only part of the truth. I do feel that the party system has stifled genuine debate, polarized opinions in a totally unhelpful way and led to the sort of yah-boo politics that gets us nowhere. It is time for a change. We need a solid block of true independents who look at every issue in a clear-eyed way." "Well, I'll wish you good luck," said Charlie, shaking his hand. "And I really will be following your progress with interest." In the event, that turned out to be more easily said than done. When he got home he found that his father-in-law had dumped himself on them, having sold his cottage, hollyhocks and all, to a buyer who wanted to move in immediately. He became cagey when he was asked why he hadn't even given them a phone call to warn them. Clearly he had feared excuses, lodgings found for him, obdurate refusals of hospitality. So speed was now of the essence. The next evening Charlie and Felicity viewed the three properties in Slepton Edge, along with the smaller ones, and chose two. The one they chose for themselves was a stone house dating from the 1880s with three rooms downstairs and four bedrooms upstairs, one of them marked as a study for Felicity, who followed the parental example in one thing only: the urge to write fiction. There was a little scrap of garden at the front and a larger one at the back, clearly destined to be a playing area for two, which Charlie decided on the spot would be nothing but grass. Mowing he could enjoy; planting, tending, weeding and pruning he didn't have time for, and wouldn't until he reached retirement age. The bungalow they chose for Rupert Coggenhoe was five minutes away, gently uphill and on the edge of the inhabited part of the village, with nature metaphorically speaking on its doorstep. Felicity's dad had said that he relied entirely on their judgment, which would give him unlimited opportunities for whingeing once he had moved in. The choice having been made, it was time for the lawyers, surveyors, solicitors and removalists to take over, and on Charlie and Felicity's part a constant and successful effort to get the transaction finalized and the move made as soon as possible. At work, reading the Yorkshire papers during a quiet spell, Charlie learned that the election for mayor of Halifax had been won by the Labour candidate Archie Skelton, a party stalwart in his sixties, but that Dr. Christopher Carlson had come a respectable and surprising second, having been beaten by only 267 votes. And that was the situation when, on the thirteenth of November, Charlie and Felicity, accompanied by Carola and the fetus, moved to 15 Walsh Street, Slepton Edge. Mr. Rupert Coggenhoe, accompanied only by his half-finished manuscript novel Georgiana Cavendish, came with them in the car and had his first sight of his fifties bungalow, 23 Forsythia Avenue, Slepton Edge. From Charlie and Felicity's point of view it was near enough for help to be on hand, but not quite far enough for comfort. As for Coggenhoe, he sighed, as if it wasn't really his sort of place at all and they should have known that, but allowed himself to be led out of the car and shown around.

Pelagianism: The Religion of Natural Man by Michael S. Horton Cicero observed of his own civilization that people thank the gods for their material prosperity, but never for their virtue, for this is their own doing. Princeton theologian B. B. Warfield considered Pelagianism "the rehabilitation of that heathen view of the world," and concluded with characteristic clarity, "There are fundamentally only two doctrines of salvation: that salvation is from God, and that salvation is from ourselves. The former is the doctrine of common Christianity; the latter is the doctrine of universal heathenism."1 But Warfield's sharp criticisms are consistent with the witness of the church ever since Pelagius and his disciples championed the heresy. St. Jerome, the fourth century Latin father, called it "the heresy of Pythagoras and Zeno," as in general paganism rested on the fundamental conviction that human beings have it within their power to save themselves. What, then, was Pelagianism and how did it get started? First, this heresy originated with the first human couple, as we shall see soon. It was actually defined and labeled in the fifth century, when a British monk came to Rome. Immediately, Pelagius was deeply impressed with the immorality of this center of Christendom, and he set out to reform the morals of clergy and laity alike. This moral campaign required a great deal of energy and Pelagius found many supporters and admirers for his cause. The only thing that seemed to stand in his way was the emphasis that emanated particularly from the influential African bishop, Augustine. Augustine taught that human beings, because they are born in original sin, are incapable of saving themselves. Apart from God's grace, it is impossible for a person to obey or even to seek God. Representing the entire race, Adam sinned against God. This resulted in the total corruption of every human being since, so that our very wills are in bondage to our sinful condition. Only God's grace, which he bestows freely as he pleases upon his elect, is credited with the salvation of human beings. In sharp contrast,. In his Commentary on Romans, Pelagius thought of grace as God's revelation in the Old and New Testaments, which enlightens us and serves to promote our holiness by providing explicit instruction in godliness and many worthy examples to imitate. So human nature is not conceived in sin. After all, the will is not bound by the sinful condition and its affections; choices determine whether one will obey God, and thus be saved.." Pelagianism in the Bible Cain murdered Abel because Cain sought to offer God his own sacrifice. The writer to the Hebrews tells us that Abel offered his sacrifice in anticipation of the final sacrifice, the Lamb of God, and did so by faith rather than by works (Heb. 11). However, Cain sought to be justified by his own works. When God accepted Abel instead, Cain became jealous. His hatred for Abel was probably due in part to his own hatred of God for refusing to accept his righteousness. This pattern had already emerged with the contrast between the fig leaves that Adam and Eve sewed to cover their nakedness. Running from God's judgment, covering up the shame that resulted from sin-these are the characteristics of human nature ever since the fall. "There is no one who is righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks after God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one" (Rom. 3:10-12). The nearer God comes to us, the greater sense we have of our own unworthiness, so we hide from him and try to cover up our shame with our own clever masks. At the Tower of Babel, the attitude expressed is clearly Pelagian: "Come, let us build ourselves a city, with a tower that reaches to the heavens, so that we may make a name for ourselves. " In fact, they were certain that such a united human project could ensure that nothing would be impossible for them (Gen 11:46). But God came down, just as they were building upward toward the heavens. "So the LORD scattered them from there over all the earth, and they stopped building the city" (v.8). This is the pattern: God provides the sacrifice, and judges those who offer their own sacrifices to appease God. God comes down to dwell with us, we do not climb up to him; God finds us, we do not find him. The people of Israel regularly found themselves reverting to the pagan way of thinking. God had to remind them, "'Cursed is the one who trusts in man, who depends on flesh for his strength and whose heart turns away from the LORD But blessed is the man who trusts in the LORD, whose confidence is in him.'" Jeremiah responds, "The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?... Heal me, O LORD, and I will be healed; save me and I will be saved, for you are the one I praise" (Jer 17:5, 7, 9, 15). Jonah learned the hard way that God saves whomever he wants to save. Just as soon as he declared, "Salvation comes from the LORD," we read: "And the Lord commanded the fish, and it vomited Jonah onto dry land" (Jon 2:910). The Babylonian king Nebuchadnezzar faced a similar confrontation, when his self-confidence was turned to humiliation by God. He finally raised his eyes toward heaven and confessed, "All the peoples of the earth are regarded as nothing. He does as he pleases with the powers of heaven and the peoples of the earth. No one can hold back his hand or say to him: 'What have you done'" (Dn 4:35). The clear message: God saves freely, by his own choice and action, to his own praise and glory. We find Pelagianism among the Pharisees in the New Testament. Remember, the foundation of Pelagianism is the belief that we do not inherit Adam's sinful condition. We are born morally neutral, capable of choosing which way we will turn. Sin is something that affects us from the outside, so that if a good person sins, it must be due to some external influence. This is why it is so important, according to this way of thinking, to avoid bad company and evil influences: It will corrupt an otherwise good person. This Pelagian mentality pervaded the thinking of the Pharisees, as when they asked Jesus why they he did not follow the Jewish rituals. "Jesus called the crowd to him and said, 'Listen and understand. What goes into a man's mouth does not make him 'unclean,' but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him 'unclean.'" This theological orientation was so unfamiliar to the disciples that Jesus had to restate the point: "For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. These are what make a man 'unclean'" (Mt 15:1020). Later, Jesus scolded the Pharisees with these harsh words: :2528). Therefore, Jesus told them that they must be "born from above" (Jn 3:5). The Pharisees believed that God had given them his grace by giving them the law, and if they merely followed the law and the traditions of the elders, they would remain in God's favor. But Jesus said that they were unbelievers who needed to be regenerated, not good people who needed to be guided. "No man can even come to me unless my Father who sent me draws him" (Jn 6:44), for we must be born again, "not of the will of the flesh or of the will of man, but of God" (Jn 1:13). "Apart from me you can do nothing. You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit-fruit that will last" (Jn 15:5, 16). This message was at the center of the apostolic message, as Paul defended the grace of God against the Judaizing heresy that sought to turn Jesus into merely another Moses. Centering on the person and work of Christ, Paul and the other apostles denied any place for self-confidence before God. Instead, they knew that we possess neither the ability, free will, power, nor the righteousness to repair ourselves and escape the wrath of God. It must all be God's work, Christ's work, or there is no salvation at all. Surely the Judaizing heresy that troubled the apostles was larger than the issue of Pelagianism, but self-righteousness and self-salvation lay at the bottom of it. As such, the Council of Jerusalem, recorded in Acts 15, was the first church council to actually condemn this heresy in the New Testament era. Pelagianism in Church History Every dark age in church history was due to the creeping influence of the human-centered gospel of "pulling oneself up by the bootstraps." Whenever God is seen as the sole author and finisher of salvation, there is health and vitality;. To the degree that human beings are seen as agents of their own salvation, the church loses its power, since the Gospel is "the power of God unto salvation for everyone who believes" (Rom 1:16). Throughout the period that is popularly known as the "dark ages," Pelagianism was never officially endorsed, but it was certainly common and perhaps even the most popular and widespread tendency among the masses. That should come as no surprise, since thinking good of our nature and of possibilities for its improvement is the tendency of our sinful condition. We are all Pelagians by nature. There were debates, for instance, in the eighth century, but these did not end well for those who defended a strict Augustinian point of view. Since Pelagianism had been condemned by councils, no one dared defend a view as "Pelagian," but Semi-Pelagianism was acceptable, since the canons of the Council of Orange, which condemned Semi-Pelagianism, had been lost and were not recovered until after the closing of the Council of Trent in the sixteenth century. On the eve of the Reformation, there were fresh debates over free will and grace. Reformers benefited from something of a renaissance of Augustinianism. In the fourteenth century, two Oxford lecturers, Robert Holcot and Archbishop of Canterbury Thomas Bradwardine, became leading antagonists in this battle. Two centuries before the Reformation, Bradwardine wrote The Case of God Against the New Pelagians, but, "Holcot and a host of later interpreters found Bradwardine's defense of the 'case of God' was at the expense of the dignity of man." 3 If that sounds familiar, it should, since the truth and its corresponding objections never change. The archbishop's own story gives us some insight to the place of this debate: Idle and a fool in God's wisdom, I was misled by an unorthodox error at the time when I was pursuing philosophical studies. Sometimes I went to listen to the theologians discussing this matter [of grace and free will], and the school of Pelagius seemed to me nearest the truth. In." Therefore, "Every time I listened to the Epistle reading in church and heard how Paul magnified grace and belittled free will-as is the case in Romans 9, 'It is obviously not a question of human will and effort, but of divine mercy,' and its many parallels-grace displeased me, ungrateful as I was." But later, things changed: "However, even before I transferred to the faculty of theology, the text mentioned came to me as a beam of grace and, captured by a vision of the truth, it seemed I saw from afar how the grace of God precedes all good works with a temporal priority, God as Savior through predestination, and natural precedence. That is why I express my gratitude to Him who has given me this grace as a free gift." Bradwardine begins his treatise, "The Pelagians now oppose our whole presentation of predestination and reprobation, attempting either to eliminate them completely or, at least, to show that they are dependent on personal merits." 4 These are important references, since many think of the emphasis of Luther in The Bondage of the Will and of Calvin in his many writings on the subject as extreme, when in actual fact, they were in the mainstream of Augustinian revival. In fact, Luther's mentor, Johann von Staupitz, was himself a defender of Augustinian orthodoxy against the new tide of Pelagianism, and contributed his own treatise, On Man's Eternal Predestination. "God has covenanted to save the elect. Not only is Christ sent as a substitute for the believer's sins, he also makes certain that this redemption is applied. This happens at the moment when the sinner's eyes are opened again by the grace of God, so that he is able to know the true God by faith. Then his heart is set afire so that God becomes pleasing to him. Both of these are nothing but grace, and flow from the merits of Christ Our works do not, nor can they, bring us to this state, since man's nature is not capable of knowing or wanting or doing good. For this barren man God is sheer fear." But for the believer, "the Christian is just through the righteousness of Christ," and Staupitz even goes so far as to say, that this suffering of Christ "is sufficient for all, though it was not for all, but for many that his blood was poured out." 5 This was not an extreme statement, as it is often considered today, but was the most common way of talking about the atonement's effect: sufficient for everyone, efficient for the elect alone. To be sure, these precursors of the Reformation were not yet articulating a clear doctrine of justification by the imputation of Christ's righteousness, but the official position of the Roman Catholic Church even before the Reformation was that grace is necessary for even the will to believe and live the Christian life. This is not far enough for evangelicals, but to fall short of this affirmation is to lose touch with even the "catholic" witness shared at least on paper by Protestants and Roman Catholics. What About Today? Ever since the Enlightenment, the Protestant churches have been influenced by successive waves of rationalism and moralism that have made the Pelagian heresy attractive. It is fascinating, if frustrating, to read the great architects of modern liberalism as they triumphantly announce their project. They sound as if it were a new theological enterprise to say that human nature is basically good, history is marked by progress, that social and moral improvement will create happiness, peace, and justice. Really, it is merely a revival of that age-old religion of human nature. The rationalistic phase of liberalism saw religion not as a plan of salvation, but as a method of morality. The older views concerning human sinfulness and dependence on divine mercy were thought by modern theologians to stand in the way of the Enlightenment project of building a new world, a tower reaching to heaven, just as Pelagius viewed Augustinian teaching as impeding his project of moral reform. Instead of defining Christianity in terms of an announcement of God's saving work in Jesus Christ, Schleiermacher and the liberal theologians redefined it as a "feeling." Ironically, the Arminian revivals shared with the Enlightenment a confidence in human ability. This Pelagian spirit pervaded the frontier revivals as much as the New England academy. Although poets such as William Henley might put it in more sophisticated language ("I am the master of my fate, the captain of my soul"), evangelicals out on the frontier began adapting this triumph of Pelagianism to the wider culture. Heavily influenced by the New Haven theology and the Second Great Awakening, Charles Finney was nearly the nineteenth-century reincarnation of Pelagius. Finney denied original sin. "Moral depravity is sin itself, and not the cause of sin," 6 and he explicitly rejects original sin in his criticism of the Westminster Confession, 7 referring to the notion of a sinful nature as "anti-scriptural and nonsensical dogma." 8 According to Finney, we are all born morally neutral, capable either of choosing good or evil. Finney argues throughout by employing the same arguments as the German rationalists, and yet because he was such a successful revivalist and "soul-winner," evangelicals call him their own. Finney held that our choices make us either good or sinful. Here Finney stands closer to the Pharisees than to Christ, who declared that the tree produced the fruit rather than vice versa. Finney's denial of the substitutionary atonement follows this denial of original sin. After all, according to Pelagius, if Adam can be said to be our agent of condemnation for no other reason than that we follow his poor example, then Christ is said to be our agent of redemption because we follow his good example. This is precisely what Finney argues: "Example is the highest moral influence that can be exerted. If the benevolence manifested in the atonement does not subdue the selfishness of sinners, their case is hopeless." 9 But how can there be a "benevolence manifested in the atonement" if the atonement does not atone? For those of us who need an atonement that not only subdues our selfishness, but covers the penalty for our selfishness, Finney's "gospel," like Pelagius's, is hardly good news. According to Finney, Christ could not have fulfilled the obedience we owed to God, since it would not be rational that one man could atone for the sins of anyone besides himself. Furthermore, "If he obeyed the law as our substitute, then why should our own return to personal obedience be insisted upon as the sine qua non of our salvation?"10 One wonders if Finney was actually borrowing directly from Pelagius' writings. Many assume "that the atonement was a literal payment of a debt, which we have seen does not consist with the nature of the atonement. It is objected that, if the atonement was not the payment of the debt of sinners, but general in its nature, as we have maintained, it secures the salvation of no one. It is true, that the atonement, of itself, does not secure the salvation of any one." 11 Furthermore, Finney denies that regeneration depends on the supernatural gift of God. It is not a change produced from the outside. "If it were, sinners could not be required to effect it. No such change is needed, as the sinner has all the faculties and natural attributes requisite to render perfect obedience to God." 12 Therefore, "...regeneration consists in the sinner changing his ultimate choice, intention, preference." Those who insist that sinners depend on the mercy of God proclaim "the most abominable and ruinous of all falsehoods. It is to mock [the sinner's] intelligence!"13 Of the doctrine of justification, Finney declared it to be "another gospel," since "for sinners to be forensically pronounced just, is impossible and absurd." and "representing the atonement as the ground of the sinner's justification has been a sad occasion of stumbling to many." 14 From Finney and the Arminian revivalists, evangelicalism inherited as great a debt to Pelagianism as modern liberalism received from the Enlightenment version directly. When evangelists appeal to the unbeliever as though it was his choice that determines his destiny, they are not only operating on Arminian assumptions, but Pelagian assumptions that are rejected even by the official position of the Roman Catholic Church as a denial of grace. Whenever it is maintained that an unbeliever is capable by nature of choosing God, or that men and women are capable of not sinning or of reaching a state of moral perfection, that's Pelagianism. Finney even preached a sermon titled, "Sinners Bound To Change Their Own Hearts." When preachers attack those who insist that the human problem is sinfulness and the wickedness of the human heart-that's Pelagianism. When one hears the argument, whether from the Enlightenment (Kant's "ought implies can"), or from Wesley, Finney, or modern teachers, that "God would never have commanded the impossible," 15 they are echoing the very words of Pelagius. Those who deny that faith is the gift of God are not merely Arminians or Semi-Pelagians, but Pelagians. Even the Council of Trent (condemning the reformers) anathematized such a denial as Pelagianism. When evangelicals and fundamentalists assume that infants are pure until they reach an "age of accountability," or that sin is something outside-in the world or in the sinful environment or in sinful company that corrupts the individual-they are practicing Pelagians. That which in contemporary evangelicalism is often considered "Calvinism" is really "Augustinianism," which embraces orthodox Roman Catholics and Lutherans as well. And that which in our circles today is often considered "Arminianism" is really Pelagianism. The fact that recent polls indicate that 77% of the evangelicals today believe that human beings are basically good and 84% of these conservative Protestants believe that in salvation "God helps those who help themselves" demonstrates incontrovertibly that contemporary Christianity is in a serious crisis. No longer can conservative, "Bible-believing" evangelicals smugly hurl insults at mainline Protestants and Roman Catholics for doctrinal treason. It is evangelicals today, every bit as much as anyone else, who have embraced the assumptions of the Pelagian heresy. It is this heresy that lies at the bottom of much of popular psychology (human nature, basically good, is warped by its environment), political crusades (we are going to bring about salvation and revival through this campaign), and evangelism and church growth (seeing conversion as a natural process, just like changing from one brand of soap to another, and seeing the evangelist or entrepreneurial pastor as the one who actually adds to the church those to be saved). At its root, the Reformation was an attack on Pelagianism and its rising influence, as it choked out the life of Christ in the world. It asserted that "salvation is of the LORD" (Jon 2:9), and that "it therefore does not depend on the decision or effort of man, but on the mercy of God" (Rom 9:16). If that message is recovered, and Pelagianism is once more confronted with the Word of God, the glory of God will again fill the earth. Notes 1. B. B. Warfield, The Plan of Salvation (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, reprinted 1980), p. 33. 2. Taken from the entry on Pelagianism in the Westminster Dictionary of Church History. 3. Heiko Oberman, Forerunners of the Reformation (Philadelphia: Fortress, 1966), p.134. 4. Ibid., pp. 151-162. 5. Ibid., pp. 175-200. 6. Charles Finney, Finney's Systematic Theology (Minneapolis: Bethany, 1976), p. 172. 7. Ibid., p. 177. 8. Ibid., p. 179. 9. Ibid., p. 209. 10. Ibid., p. 206. 11. Ibid., p. 213. 12. Ibid., p.221. 13. Ibid., p.226. 14. Ibid., pp. 319-323. 15. B. R. Rees, ed., The Letters of Pelagius and His Followers (Woodbridge, England: The Boydell Press, 1991), p.169. Dr. Michael Horton is the.

Rev.. Looking back at the formal theological training I received during the 1950s, missiology was not present at that time as a distinct discipline alongside the basic theological courses. This does not imply that seminary education was uninterested in the cause of foreign missions. It was understood that a proper knowledge of the tenets of a non-Christian religion coupled with learning its language were absolutely necessary tools for any prospective missionary and his work. Now, as Missiology has developed during the last quarter of the twentieth century, quite often it took a wrong turn, by de-emphasizing theology, and uncritically accepting cultural anthropology as a “guide” in the how to “do” missions. It welcomed the Contextualization Movement and its critique of the missionary policies and methods as they have been carried on since the days of William Carey. To illustrate this development in Missiology I will quote from a document that was issued by a group of concerned missionaries who met at the Four Brooks Conference Center in Bucks County, Pennsylvania, between July 9 and 11, equivalence’ of the Biblical text, in keeping with the culture of the particular language group rather than approximating a literal rendering. Behind this was his personal belief, not only in the importance of cultural forms, but in the errancy of the Bible. For Nida only God was absolute. The Bible was relative because of the human and cultural factors involved and could, therefore, be rendered freely without bondage to words. “Many missions and missionaries in the post-World War II period shared Nida’s interest in linguistics and anthropology, especially those working among tribal groups with unwritten languages. Journals, such as Practical Anthropology (later merged with Missiology), focused on the problems of communicating the Gospel across cultural barriers. Increasingly the missionary task was described in technical terms. Fuller Seminary’s School of World Mission popularized the words the World Council of Churches was in process of redefining evangelism and missions in cultural terms. For WCC spokesmen, evangelism and missions were to be carried on in the political, social and economic arenas and consisted in the changing or (if need be,) the overthrow of existing unjust structures. As for salvation, that had a primary reference to physical wellbeing, material abundance, peace and justice, all in this world. Significantly, influential elements within the Roman Catholic Church were to adopt the same agenda, giving rise in Latin America to aization’. In the minds of its coiners, contextualization relates, not only to the cultural aspects of church life and worship, but also to the adapting of the Gospel to the total cultural situation. This could simply mean adapting the presentation to different cultures, or it could mean accommodating the message as well. Soon many evangelicals were employing the new term, usually giving it much the same meaning as they had to indigenization. “Over the course of the next few years, however, it became apparent that some very articulate mission experts, now known as, any ambivalence was ended. The Lausanne Continuation Committee sponsored a Consultation at Willowbank, Bermuda, which openly called for the contextualization of the Gospel. Some, although not all of the papers (published in Down to Earth: Studies in Christianity and Culture),* proposed a more radical approach which would affect Gospel content. In the fall of the same year, the Lausanne Committee co-sponsored with World Vision a Conference on Muslim Evangelization at Colorado Springs, which included many of the Willowbank participants. Their papers (published in The Gospel and Islam: A l978 Compendium) explicitly applied the contextualization concept to the Christian approach to Islam. The major thrust was on avoiding cultural offence and thus increasing the likelihood of highly resistant Muslims coming to Christ.” I have quoted at length from the statement of the concerned missionaries in order to illustrate the inroads of the Contextualization Movement on Missiology. Contrast that with the approach of the pioneer missionaries. Their starting point was a solidly Biblical and theological standpoint. This is evident from the books they produced such as Samuel Zwemer’s The Moslem Christ; an excellent and lucid study in the area of Islamic Christology and its implications for missions. Another classic work was the monumental work of Prof. J. W. Sweetman: Islam and Christian Theology: A Study of the Interpretation of Theological Ideas in the Two Religions. Another example of the extreme importance of the necessity for a theological approach in our understanding of Islam comes from the British Jewish scholar Bernard Lewis. In his book, The Muslim Discovery of Europe, (New York: W. W. Norton & Company, 1982), he wrote: .” p. 300 Since Islam claims to be a revealed and theistic religion, are we right when we place so much emphasis on a cultural approach to Islam? There is hardly any aspect of Islamic life and culture which has not been impacted by the Muslim faith. It is impossible to separate Islam as culture from Islam as a religious faith. Faith and culture in Islam are the two sides of the same coin. When we reflect theologically on our subject and ask ourselves: what are some of the basic motifs of Islam that distinguish it from the Christian faith; we may come up with several answers. But I would like to advance the thesis that a fundamental motif in Islam is a strong belief in the native goodness of man. This religion asserts that man can please the creator and construct a peaceful world order by doing the revealed will of Allah. Muslim tradition not only denies the crucifixion of the Messiah, but also the necessity of redemption. The unwillingness of Islam to reckon with the consequences of the Fall has predisposed Muslims to welcome all theories that advocate the native goodness of man. In reading Arabic literature of the modern period (since 1800), one is reminded, quite often, of the affinity between the Muslim doctrine of man and that advocated by such men as Rousseau and Voltaire. Not that Muslims share the French writers’ hostility to religion, but they found in them allies who had dissented from the Christian understanding of man. In Islam, man does not need redemption from without. Taking into consideration the history and spread of Islam during the last 1400 years, and reflecting on the Biblical teachings about Christian Missions, we may see the crucial importance of examining the teachings of Paul on this subject. In this article and in a subsequent one, I hope to deal with Paul’s “Theology of Missions” as we find it in two of his major epistles, Romans and I Corinthians. From the very first chapter of Romans, we become conscious of the fact that Paul’s major concern was the Gospel, and its dissemination throughout the world. The Good News deals with the plight of man and the grace of God. The point of departure in Christian proclamation is “the plight of man.” When we have adequately explained this condition that impacts the entire human race, we are ready to expound what we mean by the grace of God as His unmerited free gift that He bestows on man on the basis of the accomplished redemptive work of Jesus Christ. In missions, whether among Muslims or others, our starting point must begin with Biblical anthropology. No secular worldview should determine our missionary approach to followers of non-Christian religions. I repeat. The starting point in our Theology of Missions must be Biblical anthropology. This was Paul’s approach in his missionary work among the peoples of the Mediterranean world. In his Letter to the Romans, Paul’s theme was, “I am not ashamed of the Gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.” (Romans 1:16 NIV) Paul began in verse 18 by dealing with the wrath of God in order to explain the seriousness and consequences of the Fall. In Chapters 1, 2, and 3 up to verse 20, Paul showed that both Jews and Gentiles; Greeks and Barbarians, “have sinned and come short of the glory of God.” That was not his entire burden, as he was very eager to proclaim the Good News. “But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.” (3:20, 21 NIV) Having expounded the doctrinal foundation of Biblical Christianity in the first seven chapters of his letter, Paul summarized his message in Romans 8. However this did not mark the end of his letter to the Christians in Rome. Before he began his discussion of the ethical aspect of the faith, he dealt with the problem of the unbelief of his people and their ultimate salvation. It is very instructive to notice that Paul, while dealing with this subject, elaborated in Chapter 10, an important missionary principle. Referring to his people Paul wrote, "They are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. Since they do not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness.” (Romans 10:2b, 3 NIV) The apostle did not deny the general principle revealed in the Old Testament that "The man who does these things will live by them.” (Leviticus 18:5 NIV) The Jews of Paul's days believed that salvation was accomplished through keeping the law. This is similar to the Muslims’ belief that Allah is pleased with them when they live in accordance with the Shari'a (Law). For according to Islam, “man's salvation happens under purely revelatory auspices.” While acknowledging the truth revealed in Leviticus 18:5, Paul showed that man, since the Fall, could not achieve salvation through the law. He quoted from Deuteronomy 30, where Moses pointed to a righteousness that is granted to the repentant sinner by God's grace. The instrumentality or the means for this gift is the proclamation of the saving Word of God. Personifying the ‘righteousness that is by faith’ Paul writes: “Do: 6 - 9 NIV) We notice how Paul placed a special emphasis on the proclamation of the Gospel as a means of salvation. It is through this activity of the church that the saving Word of God comes very close to the hearers, as near to them as their own hearts and mouths are. But this saving message must be believed and confessed. Paul summarized his teaching with this important missionary principle: ‘Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.’ (10:17) Paul dealt here with the instrumental cause of salvation. In other words, saving faith, regardless of the cultural background of the hearer, takes place in an atmosphere where Christ is proclaimed. This is not meant to aggrandize the role of the apostle or the messenger of the gospel. The proclamation of the Gospel is the God-ordained way of missions across the ages, in all lands and among all cultures. Paul’s missiology was solidly based on his conviction that God had set him apart to proclaim the Gospel with boldness and clarity. It was not because he thought so highly of himself, but he believed in his high calling as an apostle commissioned to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ. His responsibility was to deliver the message to Jews and Gentiles, to the highly-educated and to the hardly-literate. He accomplished that by preaching in Greek, and sometimes in Aramaic. He adjusted the manner of his delivery to the condition of the audience, but without diluting or compromising the message. This will become quite evident in our study of his First Letter to the Corinthians. Sufficient to say at this point that our missiology should be solidly based on Holy Scriptures as they have been understood and confessed in the Confessions and Catechisms of the Reformation. To follow some new theories greatly influenced by secular disciplines would do great harm to the cause of Christian missions. *Down to Earth: Studies in Christianity and Culture, edited by John R. Stott and Robert Coote, Eerdmans, Grand Rapids, MI 1980. p.1 Rev. Bassam M. Madany In Part I of Pauline Missiology, I dealt with the developments in the theology of Christian Missions that took place during the second half of the Twentieth Century. I referred to the rise of the Contextualization Movement and how it became almost the sole driving force within Evangelical Missiology. My main burden was not so much to critique this new development in Missions, but by way of contrast, to set forth Paul’s teachings about the role of Gospel proclamation in the fulfillment of the Great Commission. My alarm at the powerful new trends at work among some missionary organizations was at its peak during the 1980s. That led to convening a meeting in 1985, of colleagues involved in missions, and the issuing of a Declaration of Missionary Concern. Several papers were read at the meeting where the history of the Contextualization Movement was related, coupled with an analysis of the so-called failure of the classical Missionary Movement due to its unwillingness to contextualize the Gospel among peoples of the non-Christian world. Since my retirement from radio missions in 1994, I continued my study of the missionary scene. I was thankful to notice that other critical voices were being raised regarding the new trends in Missiology, such as an article by a professor at an Evangelical Seminary calling for the “Re-Theologizing of Missiology.” There were indications from the mission fields telling about some ardent contextualizers who were now reconsidering their previous radical positions. So I began to entertain the hope that before too long the Contextualization Movement would alter its ways. I am sorry to say that my hopes were not fulfilled. Early in 2005, I received two communications from missionaries laboring in Muslim-dominated areas that asked for my advice concerning the use of Arabic terms that apply to the Lord Jesus Christ. One missionary alerted me that in his field, there were some associated with an Evangelical organization attempting to spread a “Muslim-friendly version of the Arabic Bible.” In other words, the time-honored Arabic translation known as the Smith-VanDyke (1860) version was considered inadequate in a Muslim field. The protagonist for the Muslim-friendly translation wanted to alter some fundamental terms used about our Lord by substituting an Arabic word that did not convey exclusively the divinity of Jesus Christ. In my response to the missionary I wrote: “To the best of my knowledge, when "Jehovah" appears in OT Hebrew, the LXX rendered it: Kurios and the AV: LORD. In Arabic, it was translated: Al-Rabb. [Lord] “I am not aware of any translation used by Arabic-speaking Christians that uses: Al-Mawla. Have you heard of the MT. SINAI ARABIC CODEX 151 version of the NT? It was published in 1985 by THE INSTITUTE FOR MIDDLE EASTERN NEW TESTAMENT STUDIES in Louvin, Belgium. This translation, which may be the oldest known Arabic version of the NT, uses “Al-Rabb” uniformly when it refers to the Lord Jesus Christ, such as in Romans 1:6, and 1:7, all the way to II Peter 3:18, and Jude 24. “One of the most puzzling things for me is that the Contextualizers seem to be ignorant of the fact that Christianity pioneered the translation of its Sacred Text, a fact that indicates genuine contextualization. In contrast, Islam requires Arabization, so that its sacred text, the Qur’an is authentic and authoritative, only in Arabic. “Furthermore, they seem to omit the unique role of the Holy Spirit in conversion. Great as good translations are, ultimately, it is the Holy Spirit, “the Lord and giver of life,” who brings about metanoia (conversion) in the life of the convert.” I will now refer to another message received early last year from a missionary who thanked me for sending him the “Statement of Missionary Concern,” and explained how it had helped him to grow in his appreciation of the Biblical statements about the proper conduct of missions. He had been in correspondence with me about the attempt of some missionaries who were advocating the use “Isa” the Qur’anic name for Jesus, in the translation of the Scriptures into the language of a Muslim group in West Africa. In the traditional translations of the Word of God into languages used by Muslims, the name “Yesu’a” has been used. It so happens that “Isa” is etymologically meaningless as an Arabic name; while “Yesu’a” in its Hebrew root means Savior. Here are some pertinent excerpts from his letter: Dear Rev. Madany, The “Statement of Missionary Concern” has certainly helped me to tease apart the humanistic trends that are entering the enterprise of missions, and has certainly called me back to a closer walk with the Lord and His word. Thank you. I am completely rethinking the approach, as I realize that much of the felt-needs approach is very human centered and does not presuppose the absolute hostility of fallen man to the truths of the Gospel. If nothing else, this “Isa” project has certainly made me want to bring glory to the name of Jesus and to see him honoured. I have grown increasingly appalled--spurred on also by your insights--of the uncritical and un-Biblical stance that many well-meaning Christians have taken. May God give us courage to be 21st century Reformers. The packet with your books on The Bible and Islam has arrived and I have distributed them to our team. Also, would it be possible for us to copy them here and distribute them to other missions? (I have a very good working relationship with a number of other missions. If your book could be part of their orientation package, that would be a great asset to seeing solid Biblical thinking here in the mission community. Once again, thank you for all of your input to date. It has been most valuable.I come now to the main point of my article by consulting the teachings of the Apostle Paul in his First Letter to the Corinthians, as to how he dealt with the communication of the Gospel in the mission fields of the Church. He delved into this subject as he corrected several doctrinal and ethical lapses that occurred among the young church in Corinth. Paul began by callingand 2, Paul emphasized the contents of the proclamation as well as the appropriate method for the delivery of the message. His agenda was the preaching of the word of the cross. Why was Paul equally concerned about the message and the method? Because he was aware of the fact that the content of the message, Jesus Christ and him crucified, required a methodology that Muslim world, we must realize that the message of the cross is foolishness to the followers of Muhammad. The gospel of the cross is denied both on Qur’anic and doctrinal grounds. According to Islam, Allah did not and could not have permitted the Messiah to be killed by the Jews. At this point, we must recognize that Muslims, throughout their history, have not always been totally consistent with the teachings of their faith. The legalism of Sunni (Orthodox) Islam has pushed many Muslims to look for peace with God in the way of Sufism (mysticism). Also, suffering and redemption are not foreign to the minds of Shi’ite Muslims. We should not forget, in our missionary work, that Muslims are never sure about their standing with their Creator on the Day of Judgment. These factors must be taken into consideration when we present the gospel, and as we elaborate missionary principles for work among them. But the fundamental reason why we must proclaim without compromise the word of the cross is that God has ordained it to be the means of grace for salvation. When we reflect on the first two chapters of I Corinthians, we that the Muslims require in order to make our message acceptable to them is nothing less than unconditional surrender. It is rather naive on the part of so many missiologists who are flying the banner of contextualization in missions to Muslims, to imagine he gave himself with the message. He became all things to all men that he might win some. But he never compromised on the fundamentals.,2,4,5) The faith that Paul spoke about in these verses was not simply the orthodox or the apostolic teaching about the Messiah. It was equally that personal faith which was evoked and created by the Holy Spirit. This is why the human instrument or channel was de-emphasized.. (13,14) Needless to say, the apostle ended his teaching about the importance of the message and the proper method that must deliver. It is regrettable that the advocates of Contextualization have relied greatly on cultural anthropology to the neglect of the time-honored theological disciplines. I have been astonished that some, who belonged to churches with strong Confessional Standards, accepted uncritically this novel methodology. I would like to make one last comment with the hope that I am not misunderstood. In the episode I related earlier in this article when some missionaries were advocating the use of a so-called “Muslim-friendly” translation of the Bible, they seemed to ignore the millions of Arabic-speaking Christians who are accustomed to use a term for Lord that was in use for around one thousand years before the Smith-VanDyke version appeared in 1860. It is as if we have never existed, or that our traditions as Eastern Christians were of no value! Furthermore, the advocates of Contextualization among Muslim peoples, seldom exhibit knowledge of Arabic similar to those pioneer missionaries such as Elie Smith, Cornelius VanDyke, James Dennis, and Samuel Zwemer. A revival of a serious study of the basic theological disciplines: Biblical Studies, Church History, Systematic Theology, Biblical Theology, remain the sine qua non of any missiology. Above all, we should sit at the feet of the Apostle Paul, and drink deeply from his teachings about missions. There is no substitute for Pauline Missiology. Middle East Resources

William Bowe, aka The Poll Bludger, has an interesting take on the pro-Greens trend apparently evident in recent elections, about which there’s been a bit of talk around the traps. It’s been most evident in the ACT election on the weekend, where The Greens secured a 6.6% swing in their favour. I wonder to what degree this might be an artefact of the ACT’s election system, where there’s a much more transparent representation of voters’ preferences, and thus, conceivably, a greater incentive to vote for a non-major party. Of course, the ACT isn’t exactly a population representative of Australia. Nevertheless, there may be, as Bowe suggests, some tea leaves to read for inner city Labor held seats federally and in states where Labor is really on the nose. (I’ve qualified the statement about the trend with “apparently”, largely because I think that far too much can be made of comparable results in distinct jurisdictions and similarly, I don’t accept that all the remaining Labor state administrations are in as much trouble as the NSW government. I suspect there’s a significant degree of error – something like the ecological fallacy – committed by NSW-centric media and political commentators extrapolating far too readily from what’s around them locally to other parts of the country.) The two explanations for The Greens’ increased success in vote gathering tend to be posited – that they hoover up “disaffected left-wing votes” and that there are largely positive reasons based around issues and the party’s own profile and image which are attracting more voters. The two, of course, aren’t necessarily incompatible, though political journalists tend to present them as if they are. I strongly suspect there are some soft Liberal and swinging votes going to The Greens, and for a range of reasons. Here, it would be very useful to have some good focus group research rather than endless voting intention polls. So while I know we’ve got our share of both Labor and Green partisans around here, I’d be very interested in hearing from people who feel less identified with either the ALP or The Greens about what might sway their voting choices, and also from those who are more directly involved in party politics in anything they’re picking up from campaigning (without the partisan hats on!)… Update: A post on this topic from Andrew Bartlett. 109 responses to “The growth of The Greens: Two hypotheses” In Queensland – Lawrence Springborg will put off a lot of urban Libs who won’t might think about voting for Anna Bligh but can’t stomach most of her MPs & especially front bench (eg. Spence) – which I think goes some way towards explaining the positive trend in recent polling. Although the danger for the Greens will be to what extent they become victims of their own success. If they continue to take on board people like Ronan Lee who clearly joined the party for opportunistic reasons then their Activist base will splinter and urban Libs/swinging voters (and also ALP folk I guess) might start to see the Greens as a party for ALP regos and opportunists rather than a party with a genuine ideological backbone or a relatively safe place to park a protest vote given the unlikelihood of it ever having real power. Rather – …who might *think* about voting for Anna… Blackberry & BCC buses don’t make for smooth editing! Yr a reasonably objective sociologist Mark – so why limit yrself? Why not include input from those who know that the Greens are fatally flawed – but nevertheless might still be willing to utilize these tactically ‘useful idiots’ in order to tweak democratic-socialism leftwards? That is towards libertarian-socialism make. Why chain yrself to a corpse? The scary thing about the Greens is that they have the best of intentions (intentions make excellent pavers). They are often correct about things such as a no nuclear power agenda. Then they go on and ruin it by mouthing empty slogans such as “Solar not Nuclear”. Thus they lock the doors upon artificial geothermal systems; for example. “Who needs Geothermal when we have pure energy from the sun”. Thus the greens mantra is basically ignorant posturing. They come across as too lazy and too mired in some post modern and shallow fantasy world to really examine matters. No-where in any of their extensive posturing on Solar power have I seen a proper and scientific analysis; all is given – good is assumed. The fact that there are major major problems involved in the injection of more than a few percent of our energy requirement from solar is totally ignored by these enthusiasts. In fact the entire greens ouvre -apart from some rather good stuff on the environment is riddled with anti scientific cant. Huggy Something I probably should have mentioned in my post was the impact of optional preferential voting, which NSW and Queensland has and Victoria doesn’t. Basically OPV makes it harder for the Greens, because a lot of Liberal voters exhaust where they would otherwise put Labor last. If not for OPV I might have gone so far as to suggest Anna Bligh herself might be in trouble in her seat of South Brisbane, which is the one state seat the Queensland Greens have been known to fantasise about winning. Well I think the ‘apparent’ trend to the Greens is real. Gradual progress perhaps but nevertheless real and increasing in significance. I suspect they have increased their percentage vote at all elections, state and federal, in the past few years [that can be checked] and have shown steady progress in opinion polls particularly since ’07. The graph is ever upwards albeit a gentle slope. I’ll suggest a few mundane reasons why, apart from the obvious growing appeal of their policies particularly in the light of climate change, workNOchoices, indigenous affairs et al. One mundane reason for this success includes that the logistics of continuing to succeed are running in their favour. Money is starting to flow. As a party that relies largely on membership funding and small donations rather than the largely anonymous donations that the big 2 receive [and kudos to Faulkner for his reforms there] funding campaigns has been difficult. For example my budget for one federal electorate 2 elections ago was $500 total. At that election Family First spent more on TV commercials than the entire budget for the Greens in that state. The near 1% increase in the Greens vote nationwide last election [and I think it was even higher in the Senate] was a monetary windfall and has enabled a higher public profile since. With more Senators and increased reps in the states comes parliamentary support staff, offices, funding and resources which enables a greater reach into the community, better than previously. In SA the Greens were virtually invisible prior to the last state election, media releases were largely ignored. Whilst the media still prefer to turn a blind eye to the Greens that has become harder since and the Greens are getting greater publicity and public attention. As their vote has grown I suspect the FF jibe of calling the Greens ‘extreme’ has been diluted, in fact I would reckon the name callers have been exposed as the real extremists. A 10% nationwide vote, more than the Nationals,FF, Democrats [who?] and the ‘others’ combined, has shown that the Greens are a growing force and cannot be ignored so easily. I’m not overly optimistic about the future, I wouldn’t get carried away, I reckon progress will continue to be slow with perhaps a hiccup or two and probably not the continued strength of last weekend. But they are here to stay and cannot be ognored or derided as easily as before. [Oh and the so-called 'opportunistic' factor is well under control here in SA, there is a rigourous selection process in place that has stood the party well recently.] Put me in the “hoovered up, disaffected” category. My vote went to the Greens when Beazley went to jelly over the Tampa. It went green in the last council election here because Labor didn’t run and some real wierdos did so I wanted to vote diametrically opposite to the bible thumpers that were proferred. I went independent in the last state election (NSW) because the local sitting independent isn’t a redneck and keeps his religion to himself. The vote probably would have been green if the sitting member was Labor (New England we’re talking about). I’m not sure I’d bother much with Greens policies or expect them to become a major force though – just not economically pragmatic enough which has been stated well enough in earlier posts here. They’re a backstop against religious nutbaggery, corruption and stupidity. I frankly think its a greater concern for quality of life in our cities, and the bankrupt, near-braindead lack of imagination from State Labour adminsitrations about this. People can SEE the cities population are growing, and what are ALP adminsitrations doing? Building more freeways. That moron Brumby today, after a lot of agitation here about the need for upgrading public infrastructure – which is just blindingly obvious common sense – actually had the stupidity to say “well, with the financial crisis a lot of these will be on hold”. This is why he will lose the next election, caned from left and right for his lack of foresgiht. Of course – he’ll find the dollars for a new freeway., Probably tomorrow. Its banckrupt – and I suspect, plain corrupt thinking. Idiocy this unmoving can only be paid for by special interests. I’ll make it real simple: even car owners need better public transport. Its the ONLY thing that will ultimately cure congestion. New roads dont. Which is my response to Huggybunny – the Greens is increasing because ALP policies on urban life are so unrealistic, impractical, out of date, and plain faith-based or ideological. The Greens approach simply makes more sense to increasing numbers of people, and is more evidence-based. prof. rat @ 3 – I’m interested in input from all quarters – and preferably, as I said, input that’s relatively agnostic vis a vis the relative merits of The Greens as a party from a partisan point of view – temporarily agnostic at least, and more attuned to why they’re becoming more electorally appealling, and to whom. As to democratic socialism/libertarian socialism, I’d also be interested in the degree to which either participative and/or socialist impulses are present in The Greens as a party, but perhaps that’s a topic for another thread. Mark @ #9 But that’s the problem, I think: what is the political space that the Greens are filling – or see themselves as filling (and these are two different things). The potential for the Greens depends very much upon what political tack they take. Will they shift further right in an opportunist grab for seats without fighting to change the political landscape too much overall, or will they capitalise on the space opened up by the rightward drift of the ALP (and the consequent alienation of much of the union movement – and more to come)? Even if the second is the case, there is still the question of whether they will simply begin to “fill in” for a social democratic party, or whether the compromises involved will lead to a splintering of their more radical parts. I think there is the scope for the Greens to grow, but it falls into these two camps. Either they try to take a centre-left tack (as opposed to the ALP’s general centre-to-centre-right politics, with the unions as the major qualifier here, and even that is onyl partial) and try to simply fill the space vacated by Labour; Or they try to fill this space, and dislodge unions form labor and become a genuine social demcratic party, or even deomcratic socialist (left, far-left or centre-left are all options, depending on the balance of forces). Moving further right poses serious challenges which harms their radical base (the people that in a large part have built, and still build, the Greens) in the hunt for more votes. This – and an anti-socialist sentiment – has been a strong tendency in parts of the Greens (and has been since inception as a federal organisation, when they kicked out the SWP), and Bob Brown and people around him are central players in this. The end result could be as ugly as Die Grünen in Germany. The real question – to my mind – is to what degree the Greens recognise the importance and power of the unions, and the degree to which they could make real inroads into them, while also carrying the enviro flag ( a quick look at the AMWU’s Climate Change policy, or the ETU support of the Greens in the Federal eletcion, should show this – although the former also had a significant socialist input). If they don’t capitalise on Rudd’s (essentially) anti-union politics, they run the risk of cornering themselves like the democrats did. I tend to think that the Greens are fatally flawed (and the argument of “neither left nor right, but green” is a symptom of this failure), but they have the potential to play a vital part in rebuilding the left in Australia in a way that hasn’t been seen for some time. A potential, mind you, which might not be realised for the reasons above. I kinda agree with most of that, Wombo, but I’d just emphasise again I’d like the primary focus of the comments to remain on what’s happening currently with their electoral appeal. However I don’t want to be too restrictive! That’s the point, though. Electoral appeal is a fickle thing. The ETU in Victoria (and other unions) have thrown money and support at the Greens, largely because of their opposition to WorkChoices. But the Greens continue a line of not antagonising the “blue-greens” (disenchanted Liberal voters, and perhaps even some more conservative Labour voters), rather than consolidating themselves on the political spectrum. Part of this has been a position of not taking unnecessary positions, to avoid antagonising people, and hence to gain electoral favour as incumbent governments and incompetent oppositions bleed all over the carpet. But for the reasons noted above, this is an unsustainable strategy. Hannahs Dad – there is incremental growth, but it is so glacial that it will take about 30 elections (or 120 years) for this to put the Greens in a winning position. So their vote grew by 1% between the last two Federal elections and by less than that between the 2002 and 2006 Victorian State elections. I get annoyed with the hype leading up to EVERY election, where the Greens spruik that they’re going to hold the balance of power, win 10 Lower House seats etc etc…then comprehensively don’t, to have exactly the same lines trotted out in the media next time around. There doesn’t seem to much scrutiny by the media of these claims. As an ‘on the ground’ political operative, the Greens vote is still mainly built on protest voters. Because their vote is reactive rather than attractive (if you get what I mean) it tends to be based on the desire to punish rather than the desire to support. This means that (for these voters) the Greens don’t have to have policies at all, let alone have these scrutinised in the way a major party expects to be – voting for the Greens is simply a way of voting for ‘AN Other’ rather than an endorsement. As for John Brumby not working according to an evidence base, Lefty E, whew!! Quite the opposite. Perhaps his evidence doesn’t agree with your evidence (and I expect, with Treasury and all the other Depts busily collecting information, he has more evidence than you or the Greens) but my knowledge of JB is that if the evidence isn’t there, he’s not interested. Over the years since the fifties at least, the Aust political landscape has been one of two major political parties (and I don’t count the Nats as a separate party) and one minor one – ‘to keep the bastards honest’. First it was the DLP, following their demise, it was the Aust Democrats, and now the Greens are filling in that vacuum. (With a flirtation with One Nation – I am sure that many had private thoughts of jumping with Pauline Hanson). I would be surprised if the Greens were more than a loose coalition of people with actual green convictions, and with those who are disaffected with the Government of the day and simply cannot bring themselves to vote for the Opposition. Then why is Brumby such a complete drongo on public transport infrastructure, given the plain projections on population growth, Mackenzie? Im sure Brumby gets ‘evidence’ on the questions he is interested in. That does not make his approach “evidence-based”. The ALP will lose its inner-city seats to the Greens because their hidebound urban policies are failing to move with the times. Turst me, peoplem can see the transport infrastructure groaning – and whne Brumby does nothing, it just seems perverse, inane, out of touch, wrong, dim, rudderless, clueless, and completely impractical. Business as usual aint working. I think Melbourne (state) is probably lost already, and possibly Richmond as well. Long term the Greens will have ambitions for Northcote, Brunswick, Prahran and Albert Park. The existence of a conservative ALP government is the ideal breeding ground for Greens support, as displayed by their massive vote increase in 2002. Once the ALP loses office, most of those Green voters will recognise the Liberal Party as “the real enemy” and flock back to the ALP. I think by and large it does vary from administration to administration. To take the example of the NSW Government, I think there will be quite a strong tendency in 2011 for leftish Labor voters to give the Greens their first preference and possibly not preference Labor at all, should the Rees Government fail in its attempts to portray itself as a competent administration. In this scenario, one or two inner city seats are bound to fall to the Greens. On the other hand, I think things could trend slightly the other way federally in 2010; if the Rudd Government does a good enough job with pursuing climate change and “soft” social issues over the next couple of years, I would not be surprised if it nabbed a few primary votes back from the Greens. Hmmm … “I’d be very interested in hearing from people who feel less identified with either the ALP or The Greens about what might sway their voting choices” I guess that might mean people like me, I don’t identify well with either the ALP or the Greens, but I don’t identify with the Libs, Nats or FF either. I’m just that cynical about the whole lot of them. Ok, It could just be me, but I’m noticing an ever increasing negative focus of some Greens advertising, and it ‘appears’ that Bob Brown is getting increasingly personal in attacks against Labor, It’s like they got to 10% primary vote and thought “Well enough or trying to sell our values, let’s start deriding everyone else’s ideas”. Personally, I don’t trust major parties, they skew results against deserving candidates (whoever they are, or wherever they went depending on your viewpoint), ensuring that the smallest number of people control the largest part of Australian governments. The Greens just appear to be modeling themselves up into a major party, willing to sell principal for cheap populism, why should I vote for them when I already have 2 parties that can provide that service? PinkyOz Self declared Green partisan obviousl - but I am slightly gobsmacked that no-one has mentioned at all that Australians have consistently shown that they are very concerned about climate change, voted in federal labor with CC being one of the key issues, and are now watching Labor at all levels fail to meet voter aspirations/expecations on it. I’m in Tas, which is quite different, but on the ground we are watching more voters across the spectrum who self-nominate climate change as a key issue for them taking a look at the greens. IOW, I think comments dismissing the rise in recent votes for the Greens as only disaffection are pre-emptively and probably erroneously dismissing the fact that this may also reflect a longer term shift, not a once off protest vote. To some degree it is a longer shift, myriad, in that The Greens are getting a vote that wasn’t going to them a decade ago. The question, though, and this point has been raised by Marks @ 14, is to what degree they’ve occupied a place in the political system where “not a major party” sits. It would be interesting to know how much churn there is in The Greens’ vote – that is, people voting for The Greens at one election who have never voted for them before and may never again, to be replaced by others who… etc. That was very high for the Democrats – around 40-60% if memory serves. That was their big problem – they were in effect a place holder for disaffected votes, and they couldn’t hang on to them once particular reasons for disaffection were mitigated. I’d be surprised if that occurs to the same degree with The Greens, because they’ve got something of a sharper image than the Democrats, but it must to some, and they must know it, because some of the campaign material actively goes fishing for this sort of vote. If South Australia is any indication of what is happening elsewhere in Australia then the ranks of the Greens are increasing by the day off the back of disaffected Laborites. I’m not just talking about voters here; I know of a number of former Labor Party members who resigned and went off to join the Greens. I suspect that the more Labor drifts to the right, then the more people the party will lose to the more genuinely left-wing Greens. One of the things that has been quite evident over the past couple of state and federal elections has been the dramatic increase in the number of people handing out how-to-vote cards for the Greens at country booths – something that was almost unheard of twenty years ago. The country areas of South Australia is where Labor is really in danger of losing its supporter base, especially as green issues become more and more dominant in these electorates. Oh, and not running a candidate in Mayo didn’t help the perception that Labor doesn’t give a shite about the country. I suspect that a lot of those 30% or so of Labor voters who went Green or green independent may never come back and that it will from now on be a Liberal v Green fight in Mayo. The Greens best road forward would lie in establishing themselves as the preferred party on government services health and education this would enable them to appeal to centre-left rather than just left voters. Labor inner-city MPs are on borrowed time once the Greens win these seats Labor’s vote would rapidly decline as labor’s on the ground infrastructure and social networks are ageining fast. Precedent here is rise of the Country Party once it won seats from the Nationalists these seats were not regained. Young politically ambitious people on the left in inner-city locations will be pulled to the Greens rather than the ALP. The Greens will win inner city safe ALP seats instantly when they can reliably attract and keep the preferences of Liberal voters, either through preference deals with the Party or campaigning. For the forseeable future, seats like Melbourne and Richmond, and Balmain and Marrickville, will be three-cornered, not two-sided contests. I’ll be interested to see how the Greens will embrace their Tories while also appealing to left- and centre-left voters. Wombo’s point is well-made. The Greens’ members of Parliament and their partisan base is somewhat disconnected to their voters—Greens partisans generally have a staunch orientation to non-environmental Left causes such as trade unionism, feminism and disarmament. Their potential voters, less so. How Greens campaigns can reconcile the potential support both of the CFMEU/AMWU/ETU/etc. and of small business low-tax NIMBY-green folk is going to be an increasing problem. /labor-stooge With difficulty, I’d say, Liam. That was really The Greens’ problem in the Brisbane Central by-election caused by Peter Beattie’s resignation. The candidate, Anne Boccabella, was definitely in the local activist category and made an awful lot of her background as a small business person and launched attacks on the Labor candidate, Grace Grace – who was a prominent unionist as secretary of Unions Qld. I know this turned off a number of union friendly voters who were disillusioned with state Labor, but it didn’t succeed in attracting enough Liberal voters – the Libs didn’t run a candidate. Including myself, I should add. I was leaning towards voting for The Greens, then I went to a public meeting and I was really put off by her rhetoric that sailed very close to being anti-union, and also the assumption – which she confirmed in conversation with me was her view – that being a small business owner demonstrated a disposition to take risks, etc, and which came across to me as an argument for the superior virtues of the petit bourgeois as opposed to us sad sack workers. So I voted for Grace. In the federal election, The Greens’ candidate for Brisbane seemed to me to be a policy free zone and concentrated on telling her own personal story of (I thought somewhat undirected) activism, accompanied with attacks on Arch Bevis for being a politician, which I also found distasteful. I’m disinclined to vote for someone on the grounds of their claims about their own personal virtue, and on denigration of their opponent. So I voted for Arch. I have voted #1 the Democrats and The Greens in the past in lower house contests at federal and state level. The following figures show that the previous big surge in the Greens’ vote occurred largely in the first three to four years of the millennium: Federal elections: Year House of Representatives (%) Senate (%) 1993: 0.40 0.81 1996: 1.74 1.66 1998: 2.14 2.66 2001: 4.96 4.38 2004: 7.19 7.67 2007: 7.79 9.04 Queensland state elections Year Legislative Assembly (%) 2001: 2.5 2004: 6.8 2006: 8.0 NSW State elections Year LegislativeCouncil (%) Legislative Assembly (%) 1999: NA 2.9 2003: 8.2 8.6 2007: 8.9 9.1 Victorian State elections Year Legislative Council (%) Legislative Assembly (%) 1999: 1.2 2.2 2002: 9.7 10.9 2006: 10.0 10.6 The three main factors contributing to the growth of the Green vote in this period can be fairly readily identified, i.e.: (a) resurgent interest in environmental issues (as measured by memberships of environmental movement organisations, salience of environmental issues in elections, and public opinion surveys); (b) the Tampa effect on Labor members and supporters; (c) the decline of the Democrats. The first of these, and something like the second of these, may well be at work in the most recent upsurge in Greens support but I wouldn’t be surprised if Mark’s suspicion about soft Liberal and swinging voters being in the mix was correct, and agree that we need some good focus group research to shed some light on what’s currently going on. I agree with your agreement with me, Mark. I suspect the Greens suffer particularly from this kind of irreconcilable politics because their campaigns rely so heavily on word-of-mouth. The other unmentioned issue is that of levels of Government. Unlike the majors and traditional local Independents (like Andren, Katter, and so on) whose appeal seems to be relatively constant across levels of administration it seems to me that the Greens’ appeal radically increases the more local the level of Government in question. I’m not sure why it has been easier lately for the Greens to win votes at the Council/Shire level than for Federal or State seats—apart from the matter of PR, obviously—but it is definitely a factor. Why would the same area vote for a Green mayor but not a Green lower house cross-bencher? That has never made sense to me. Sure, thats a good point Liam, though Im not sure how big the “small business low-tax NIMBY-green folk” consitunency actually is. I cana say that the Greens hardcore number crunchers (and yes, they have em!) estimate 10% of their support are ex-tories who would never vote ALP in a bazillion years. Thats 1.5% of the electorate, and frankly, thats government for left-of-centre parties when things are tight. I am also a bit suspect of theories that try to apportion Greens support as a “protest vote”. That strikes me as a legacy of the days when Greens may or may not have continued as a force. fact is they are now an establshed party and these shofts are better seens as “swings” – as they are between major parties. eg Rudd converted a number of swingin voters last election. Is that really best viewed as a “protest vote” against the Libs? Id call it a swing – which will have permanent (electoral/ demographic shifts) and impermanent (07 election specific) components. The Greens vote is basically rising over time, and the Democrats are not nec. a good analogy, IMO – as theres are a concrete and identifiable material set of concerns driving Green politics. Also, its just an electoral fact that the more highly educated are over-represented in Green support. Thats neither here nor there in most respects, in my view – but it DOES bear upon the idea of impermanent “protestors” just parking their vote temporarily by way of an ill thought-out, reactive up-yours to the majors. Id suggest the Greens have fewer of these than most parties. The distinction, Lefty E, as I suggested @ 20, lies in the composition of the vote across time. The Democrats were unable to hold on to many votes from election to election and really didn’t have a “base”. That won’t be the case with The Greens, but their aim has to be to convert votes which swing at one election for reasons that essentially don’t have that much to do with them (*though they do need to establish that they’re a respectable vehicle for such voters*) into votes that might have a better chance of sticking. That’s easier said than done. The number that we really need – it may be in the AES but I haven’t got time to check this morning – is the churn number from election to election. Since The Greens, as Paul demonstrates, have reached a sufficient level of support across several elections to disaggregate that figure, we should be able to work out a lot from a time series. Guy, I don’t seem to recall a stunningly brilliant performance by the Rudd government on “soft social” issues yet… The apology was a win. The effective killing-off of mandatory detention was a win. But he’s hardly the second coming of Don Dunstan. Lefty E wrote: My guess is that it is too small to measure. Worse than that, the you’d need a “small business, low-tax, NIMBY, green, OK with gay marriage and ‘liberal’ school teaching, non-religious-conservative” types of which in Australia there are exactly none. I think you’re downplaying the amount of people who voted for the Democrats in the Upper House, but were solid small-l liberals. Once the Dems bolted for the left, those people deserted them. Others were unhappy with Meg Lees’s contribution to workable government, as left for the Greens. Either way, nearly all of the Dems’ voters were unhappy with something they did. I also don’t think you can downplay the effect conservative Steve Bracks had on increasing the Green vote in Victoria in 2002. There was also a dearth of other candidates because the election was called on the earliest possible day. I still say the ideal conditions for a large Green vote is a conservative ALP government. Yes, just to clarify, Mark: I’m sure that’s a component of any given Greens vote, and it would be interesting to know. I guess Im suggesting that its probably smaller component of the Greens vote than not just that of the Dems (could a party possibly be set up for a higher churn factor? ), but probably than the two majors. eg NSW state by elections seats last weekend. That’s fierce temporary churn. Thats high protest only component. After all, what are our classic two party ‘swingers’ but folk who dont ‘stick’ after moving once? In nay case, the partical implication for the ALP are that they only have a short window to take those people back. Or it will be game over! Some non-pissweak enviro polcies would seriously demonstrate the Green base vote. Interesting you should mention that, Lefty. I was in Ryde and scrutineered. Though the Greens how-to-votes directed a [1] only, a good quarter of the Greens (at my booth) voted preferentially and a large majority directed them to the Liberals. The Green vote in the ACT benefited from disgust with both a bungling ALP goverment and a very unlikeable opposition. Also there was an unusually poor field of independents this year. Ya gotta remember, too, that the ACT has the most politically literate electorate in Australia; one that regularly distinguishes national and local issues. I wouldn’t read too much into this result. I don’t consider myself especially left wing – quite the reverse on a lot of economic issues, in fact. But I mostly vote Green these days. That’s partly because of the presence of the worst type of social conservative in both major parties and partly because I’ve gradually come to believe the Greens are right on the big picture of the environment – we can’t go on as we are indefinitely. I suspect I’m far from alone. I do get annoyed at their frequent economic illiteracy, and even on the environment they can be pretty silly (eg the kneejerk reaction to the word “nuclear”, and the fondness for feelgood gestures that don’t change the big picture). Intersting Liam. Does that suggest ex-Lib voters also peeved at their own party? Or ex-ALP voters who couldnt go Lib first, but really wanted to punish the NSW ALP? On this: It is a fact well-known to Greens number crunchers that their voters are the least likely to follow HTV orders of any party. Goes back to the highly educated over-representation issue. Thats why I always laugh when the ALP makes up nonsense about pref deals with Libs. A – its always complete crap; and B- even if they did, Green voters would ignore it. “Australians have consistently shown that they are very concerned about climate change, voted in federal labor with CC being one of the key issues, and are now watching Labor at all levels fail to meet voter aspirations/expecations on it.” So Myriad, your own “hypothesis” regarding “growth” of the “greens” is increased atmospheric CO2? Now where have I heard that before? How many of you are there that vote Greens because you believe that their overall policy framework is the one most geared towards meaningful personal freedom for all? Or is that just me… huggybunny @ 4 – It’s clear you’ve never actually spoken to any Greens or read any of our literature. If you had, you’d realise that most of us like the idea of geothermal energy. However, nice straw man. One of the reasons I voted Green was that they are the only socially progressive party left, with both Labor and Liberal parties dominated by socially conservative people nowadays. Also in the ACT there’s basically no way that the government can do that much harm to the economy (with all the federal government jobs), so its not a bad place to have a bit of an experiment. Life in The Bubble should get a bit more interesting over the next few years with the Greens having so much influence. We could well be seeing the reprise of the politics of a century ago, where Deakin-style liberals are squeezed between conservatives and Labor. In this scenario, the Greens take inner-city seats and the Libs take the ‘burbs. This is the NSW Labor vision taken to its logical endpoint, now that Rees is just twisting in the breeze. The Greens are right to fill the hole left by the Democrats, where earnest policy nerds get into the Senate and toil away and join the dots which lead to a big story. The Dems were past masters at this: it was Janine Haines’ true legacy, just beaver away and you build credibility over time. Kernot and Stott Despoja kicked this model to death, and now Milne and Siewert have taken it and outmanoevered past-it Brown and that silly Trot from NSW. The Greens would be mad to embrace the far left, they are polling poison just as much as the far right (oh yes). Wombo, you might be frustrated that the Greens won’t stay bought when the ETU bullyboys lob cash at them, but it is a smart strategy to become everyone’s second preference. My point here isn’t that they should embrace the far left (despite my own politics, and preference that they do so), nor that they “stay bought” by ETU “bullyboys” (and better bought by them than the “bullyboys” of Capital, I say). Rather, my point is that the “centre space” is not viable in the long term (the Dems got a good run, but times have moved on a bit, and the Greens aren’t really “centre” anyway). A strategy of simply seeking preferences while ignoring the real gap to Labor’s left they could be filling (and which much of their base belongs to) is a mistake. So, yes, the Greens are currently riding the concern over climate change and disaffection with the major parties, but can that last? That’s the question. “Greens aren’t really “centre” anyway” They would be if we were in many continental European nations. Indeed, many of their policies aren’t hugely different those of what are considered conservative governments in many Scandinavian countres. FDB, I can’t get into your link from work, alas. So if I’m missing an amusing joke, forgive me. I think my point is that sustainability is the key issue of the time, whether people call it that or not – climate change is the ‘visible’ sustainability crisis, and polling has shown that the Greens are the most trusted party on the issue – which I think is worth picking up as a reason for increasing vote as much as major party discontent etc. I think you could also make a plausible argument that the Greens are now treated as a much more credible force by the media, which means more (at least) neutral rather than negative media coverage etc. I think there’s few who would argue that climate change, and in particular Christine Milne’s work on climate change, has played a significant role in this. And Andrew E is right to point to the work of Milne and Siewart in the senate. It will be interesting to see which working style Hanson-Young and Ludlam follow – brown’s or milne/siewart, but I can hazard a guess. There’s no doubt that unlike the Dems, the Greens have a decent rusted on base in most states. In Tas I’d say it’s about 15%. Unlike others, I don’t see the need for the Greens to appeal at once both ‘left’ and ‘right’ if you like as particularly difficult, once we get our messaging right, not historically a strong point (and one of the reasons I tip my hat to Milne’s skills in this area). The Greens actually do have a coherent and logical view for the future if given half a chance, that places government and private industry in a logical context of sustainabilit & social justice in particular. Sure you can point to the fringes of the party like “the Trot” but I’d argue even an astute observor of the NSW Greens in the upper house there would have seen quite a shift in style and attitude. Finally, there’s no doubt that the Rudd Gov’t current disenchantment with the union movement is paying big dividends to the Greens, not least because it’s meaning that union members have for the first time been encouraged by their leadership not just to vote Green but to look more closely at the policies the party has on offer. And as I’ve found many a time, when people actually stop listening to the constant stream of misinformation and ill-informed bullshit printed in the media and other sources about the Greens, and read the policies, they are usually pleasantly surprised. Wombo, the reason the space to the left of the Labor Party is a gap is because people keep trying to go there and falling off. As I mentioned above, the inner city seats the Greens want to win are going to be three-cornered contests for the forseeable future. The Greens need people both to vote [1] Green, and [1] Liberal [2] Green to win them. Associating the Green brand with chuckleheads like Dean Mighell would be—there’s no other way to put this—the closest thing to stamping “if you’re conservative please don’t vote for us” on every leaflet. Myriad – I’m not sure I’d describe it as an amusing joke, so don’t stress. For what it’s worth I broadly agree with what you’ve said. Attracting the second prefs of Lib voters isn’t really that big a shift from the grassroots nimbyism of much urban Greens’ activism. I worry about the long-term health of the party from a coherent policy perspective though. Sustainability, itself a nebulous term, MUST be the overriding consideration surely, and yet ‘amenity for existing residents’ is so often the driver of the leaflets and placards in my corner of the world. David Irving (NR) David, I am sure some Greens do like geothermal energy, the problem is that the moment you try to discuss these things with them they go all Solar Solar Solar mantra insane. We desperately need an alternative to coal fired generation (and nuclear). The last Green I discussed these matters with gave me a spiel on the remnant radioactivity of the old granite rocks that generated the heat in the first place. He then moved on to the need to defile the earth by drilling holes in it! Geeez gimme a break! My argument is that too much of the Green agenda is driven by emotion and moral certainty not enough by science and rational inquiry. If they would get down to it and produce scientific and rational arguments instead of feelgood mantras they would be unstoppable. Huggy Well, Liberal voters, by contrast, are rather more likely to follow their party’s HTVs. And naturally, the Libs see it as in their own interests to make life tough for the ALP where the Greens stand a chance. No surprises there. Upshot is: the Greens don’t have to work to attract Liberal voter prefs at all. The Lib hierarchy simply offers them up – in their own interests. All this goes to how difficult matter for Green parties to balance certain alleged constituencies – it aint that hard really! Says oh so Liberal Antonio @ Oct 20th, 2008 at 9:47 pm- the guy that gave the green light to close down (with force) the Cardinal Newman Society at the University of Queensland. Earlier this year it had stalls outlining pregnancy-support options for women and they were disgustingly reprimanded, threatened with disaffiliation and faced formal disciplinary proceedings and all this from the great Liberal Antonio of UQ. Antonio, you are very fortunate that LP (and in particular Mark Bahnisch) are intelligent enough to take on all posts. And to take on differing points of debate. Unlike you, they see reason. Huggybunny, that is not Greens party policy. Check out any of our websites and you’ll find vocal support for a broad range of renewables, including geothermal. Interesting and informative discussion, folks! Useful to see how we are viewed out there. For what it’s worth, I think one of the key reasons for our increasing levels of support is that, contrary to the ever-popular line that we are economically ignorant, people are realising that the political / social / economic model as promulgated by the old parties is failing. We need to try a different approach, the Greens provide a different approach. It’s starting to make sense to a lot of people. Huggybunny, I repeat: you obviously haven’t bothered to read any Greens policy documents (or, for that matter, listen to any of, say, Christine Milne’s speeches). You’re basing your opinion of all of us on one random monomaniac (who actually happens to be right about solar, if you include solar thermal, but that’s a side issue). You can’t trust the MSM to give you an accurate impression of what the Greens are actually about, yet that’s what you seem to be doing. I think in general a lot of major parties and traditional political forces have been relying lazily on the sections of the MSM, and its hostility to the Greens. I mean the Herald Sun, for example, just comes up with complete rubbish about he Greens, which they know is complete rubbish, and print it in a po-faced way in the days leading up to elections. Its a strategy to minimize the vote. I see the ALP as much the same – they just front up and routinely lie about “pref deals with the Libs” in the days before a poll. With respect, some of the comments here come from that, erm, tradition. Problem is – fewer people are buying it every time. Yarra council has been dominated by Greens for ages – it wont be long before these inner city seats fall to the Greens. Adam Bandt for Lord Mayor of Melbourne! Interesting debate, even though again I dispute arguments about Greens’ lack of understanding on economic issues. A lot of those would come from discussion with individual grassroots Greens members on issues that most people, whether they are unaffiliated voters or grassroots members of any party, wouldn’t have a well-thought-out position. That doesn’t mean that the party’s position isn’t clear and well thought-out. I’d argue that on energy issues our policy is firmly science-based, much moreso than Labor or Liberal. Liam said that the Greens will win win inner city ALP seats once we start getting Liberal preferences. I’d remind you, though, that we came close to winning Balmain and Marrickville in 2007 with no Liberal preferences. If the swings away from Labor and to the Greens we saw last Saturday in Sydney are replicated in 2011 in those seats they will fall to the Greens without Liberal preferences. Melbourne is a different story. Also, in the longer term seats like Ballina and Coogee could turn into contests between the Coalition and the Greens, with Labor coming third, and those will be much simpler than races against Labor. Liam: From your scrutineering, do you have an estimate of what % of lib first preference voters preferenced green 2? Last time I scrutineered, in an admittedly highly soy milk eco chino area, with lots of local “development” issues, a bit more than 50% of libs preferenced green, so it’s not necessarily in lib voter DNA to go all strangelove at the thought of ticking the green box. I’m with you re: greens needing to “reliably attract and keep the preferences of Liberal voters (and) interested to see how the Greens will embrace their Tories while also appealing to left- and centre-left voters.” Someone will have to plausibly articulate a “common values of conservationists and conservatives” dialectic, ie heritagism. Labor can pretty easily be made to look like self-serving barbarians at the gates, their idea of heritage is a dead tree in the middle of nowhere, and outdated sectarian hegemonies. n the other hand, my real estate agent co-short-blacker tells me that in that industry the green demographic is known as “alternate rich”. Speaking of outdated sectarianists with obscene cultural power: Did anyone see Merri Rose point the bone at Bill Ludwig last night? O FDB, I agree on the aesthetic NIMBYism -for eg, while I think that wind farms, like all major developments, should be placed to ensure that they don’t have a major ecological impact such as chopping up hundreds of (rare) birds, I despair of the people who think we can save the planet and at the same time preserve their aesthetic view of what a landscape should look like. So yes, the Greens, like every other political party, have their own particular brand of supporters who actually could threaten our existence at any given time and need to be well managed, but not bullied / factionalised etc. While there are certainly different strains of thought and what passes for it in the Greens, we are still (thank whoever) faction-less as yet. The reliance on consensus decision-making plays a big part in this I think, even though like any other decision-making system it is open to abuse and it happens at times. It does make it very hard for a single group to hijack however. On the policy front, I’m more positive actually. With the leap to party status at the national level, the increased attention and offers of assistance we are attracting as a party from respected specialists in their fields, and the (despite the fondness we have for concentrating on the wacky members – ’cause of course no other party has those, let alone writing policy! ) high number of educated members who participate in policy development from their area of expertise, I’d predict we go from strength to strength in this area. What has been lacking too often has been specific initiatives – which is why the Tas Greens Alternative Budget is such a good idea, and makes them the only opposition party in the country to do it, I’d point out. but enough spruiking from me No, you didn’t, Ben. You’d have won them easily with Coalition preferences, but in 2007 the ALP won a fairly large plurality of votes in both. Balmain: 39% ALP, 30% Green, 24% Liberal. Marrickville: 47% ALP, 33% Green, 13% Liberal. I agree, sadly, about 2011. I suspect Bega might start getting big Green turnouts as well. Danny: no. For obvious reasons I was not looking at where the Liberal preferences were going, only the Green, Democrat and Independent ones. Heh. /sectarian-labor-stooge Ben is right. Balmain and Marrickville may well be won by the Greens without wayward orthodox Liberal votes. All sorts of people including trade unionists, anti-imperialists, anti-racists, etc., will quite happily even vote first preference Liberal such is their anger at the ALP. Like most human creations, the Greens are doing ok, but largely unfulfilled potential. Their electoral support is in no way reflected in the efficacy of local or state Green party organisation or the calibre of candidates. Pickings are slim because of generalised political disengagement, demoralisation and competing priorites. Any candidate with a history of local community involvement – and local government is the most successful arena for the Greens – always has a big headstart. There also is a dearth of in any way adequate arenas in which people interested in or supportive of the Greens electorally can voice their opinions or discuss policy and the local Green group meetings in community halls or pubs are never going to entice well just about most people these days. “enough spruiking from me” Well, certainly in my case – you’re preaching to the albeit sceptical choir. Jinmaro, Ben said that the Greens nearly won the seats outright in 2007. As I have shown, they did not. We know from the AEC website that 22.03% of the Green vote went to the Nationals in Lyne. That is 1483 preference votes from the 6731 which were distributed. Benjo @ 49 What are you talking about? This is a thread about why people seem to be voting for the Greens. How does what you are talking about got ANYTHING whatsoever to do with this topic? I don’t have the power to shut down any club at UQ and furthermore to my understanding the Newman Society continues to exist at UQ. Personally I am very strongly in favour of women’s control of their own fertility. However I am not a decision maker over any of these matters in any way. I can only guess that you are another Ronan Lee pro-Life fanatic annoyed with the Libs out at UQ. Back on-topic, incidents like this only reinforce why the Greens have to be very careful about the bedfellows they keep otherwise they risk alienating their Activist base who would never vote for a pro-Lifer in a fit. Not saying; just asking: there seems to be a lot of suggestion that the Green voter is a negative voter. ie votes by default; is this correct? Surely there are people who vote for the Greens-because they love them. OK I’m naîve. Prof Rat – I’m not sure where the line drawn between democratic and libertarian socialism is. I do recall once, in a discussion of gender imbalance in the party’s backrooms, there was an acknowledgement that the Greens try to solve problems by creating regulations to a fault. This was advanced by someone who promptly drew up affirmative action protocols even tho’ the problem wasn’t one solved by such a policy. . Hello? . Something about the Judean Peoples’ Front confusing the moving of motions at meetings with consequential action comes to mind. . The AFC has a lot of public servants et al in it. I’d wager a lot of these people would have some knowledge of the ethics, or lack thereof, amongst mainstream parliamentarians. The Greens, criticize their policies and I do, are quite civic minded. They actually turn up for work when they’re supposed to. They also decline to take donations from vested interests (altho’ I think they’ve jumped in bed with unions) and attempt to see good government obtain. . I’m not sure if this is still current but it used to be that 20% of their votes came from the Right. Still true? . I think you’d have to get the demographic stats and compare it in different electoral jurisdictions to begin to to get the whole picture. A lot of young people today evince an ideology that displays concern for the world’s poor and the ecology. That might be a reason. There’s disillusionment with the mainstream parties especially the ALP, another; and of course there’s the little matter of killing the planet. . Might have something to do with it. . I still reckon that if the Greens don’t start putting serious thought into actual policies that will work in the real world and create a sustainable economy then their vote is sure to go down when the mainstream appears to be taking the problem seriously and doing something about it. Considering the influence of unreconstructed leftists (who’re probably behind the increasingly cozy relationship between Greens and unions) I’d wager that it might become a fringe party of socialist idealists. Para 1) You only had to see and hear the ALP’s Minister for Environmental Rape and PillageNatural Resources & Water doing his best “Fat Bastard” impression on 4 corners last night to know why Qld Labor is reviled: what constituency does he think plays to anymore, is this Joh, the Undead edition? Para 2) Maybe southerners wouldn’t be so coy about publicising the fact that an ex Goss treasurer is chairman of the biggest water pirates of all, Cubbie, and will be quite happy if the massive capital raising for their planned even-more-water-intensive expansion comes from China, who have a pronounced habit of eventually “vertically integrating” ( aka hostile takeover) projects they are stakeholders in: see west australian iron ore company Midwest. Talk about selling the farm, some greens/nats anti-dirty-deals-labor common ground could be found there. And there’s the cynical dog-whistling of beattie’s tree clearing legislation, which had loopholes by which ‘an area as big as Tasmania could be cleared without a permit’. even most nats supporters would have been embarassed by those craven excesses. Para 3) But where they will really come together is highlighting how qld treasury is Old King Coal’s bitch, and damned be the tree and crop huggers that get in the way. There’s plenty of queensland country towns’ folk that will testify that where coal goes, relative poverty follows, the whole fly-in fly-out-urban-cowboys with big toys thing that is modern mining doesn’t do a lot of good for the towns, rather just distorts prices and turns the natives into a class of working poor. Arguments about the Greens only winning inner city seats on the back of Liberal preferences are somewhat misleading, because that’s how the ALP won the state seat of Melbourne in 2006 – on the back of Liberal and Family First preferences. Melbourne’s not a three way contest, whether state, federal or local. It’s not immediately clear who’s preferences got Labor over the line in the federal seat, but it’s probably Liberal and/or Family First again. There wasn’t a majority in the federal seat either (just! – although I’d contend a swing against Labor in a change-of-government election isn’t something they’d be happy about). I have an obvious interest in Melbourne specifically, given that’s where I live (and stand, in the case of local government). Lets just not mention Family First, preferences, and Victoria in the same pixellated space, hmmm? The Greens aren’t perfect, and are still forming in some ways. But they are a product of unmet need, and great public concern about the environment. My own view is our two major “productivist” parties are constitutionally incapable of meeting the new challenges – and certainly not in the generation in which major change is needed, ie the next 30 years. Hence the new party. Its a product of scarcity in the political market of ideas, if you will. People vote for the Greens because they don’t support business-as-usual on greenhouse pollution. Simple as that. Alister – Arguments about the Greens only winning inner city seats on the back of Liberal preferences are somewhat misleading, because that’s how the ALP won the state seat of Melbourne in 2006 . How’s that? . Just because the ALP did it doesn’t mean the Greens didn’t. It’s used – as can be seen above – as a tactic to delegitimise the possibility of us winning seats, particularly lower house seats. The reason why I think it’s misleading is that Labor win on Liberal/FF preferences too. Alister, it’s not delegitimisation of the Greens winning seats, it’s delegitimisation of the Greens winning seats as a Party of the pure Left. Correctly, I might add. When you win Balmain and Melbourne it’ll be through anti-Labor sentiment, and I don’t think you should shy away from that. Hell, the Labor Left has struggled to win seats for a hundred years even with the support of friendly trade unions, the grudging support of conservative ALP folk and head office’s money, which like all cash, has no smell. Why should the Greens be above courting conservatives? Liam, I agree that Balmain and Melbourne will largely be anti-Labor sentiment. Votes have got to come from somewhere, after all. So what’ll it be if we pick up Brighton one day? Cynical career AlPers can huff and puff and spin all they like but the simple fact is that the ALP today is neither progressive nor left and little to no different to the Liberals. I’ve lost count of the number of leftists, even Marxists who preference Liberal over the ALP and this has been going on for years particularly at state level. I hope the ALP loses office in NSW in two years five months. They are complete crap. Champagne? Or at least a locally-produced Yarra Valley sparkling white? Good luck to you. Thank you for expressing it better than I could. In universal suffrage, ballot papers are fungible. Labor surely couldn’t risk losing Lindsay Tanner, he’s the back room boy they rely on to do the adding up, and then hand wayne a budget that gives them economic credibility. Even Malcolm Turnbull is a fanboi. What can they do if Melbourne gets really unsafe, parachute him somewhere? I don’t think so, they’ll just have to green up, per 1990 hawke, which would be a good result. To the extent anti urban-over-development is a green issue, Anna Bligh’s spectacular about farce on Northbank was telling, especially the way they played it reads “The Beattie/Bligh gov’t was out of step with 93% of concerned people, and did everything it could to subvert their wishes”. It all adds up, and no matter how much hand-on-heart environmental platituding is done as the election comes around, it’ll be a matter of “What big promises you’ve got Grandma, All the better to fleece you with”. Is there a (betting) book yet on Anna Bligh pulling the plug on Traveston? What odds? I guess the point I was making is that there are more Labor voters in Labor held seats, but that our vote in Liberal held seats is rising too, and it’s not necessarily at the expense of Labor votes. Move Tanner to Batman, and dump ‘Marn’. Win-Win. “Move Tanner to Batman, and dump ‘Marn’.” I like your thinking: would that be to send a “we dumped marn because he’s too coal friendly” message to green voters? Surely, given the brains trust that gave us family first, such an elegant, bold and beautiful act would be beyond them. A lot of people don’t need the reminder, but some do, so let me just remind people that the purpose of this thread is not for ALPers and Greens to do the partisan slag each other off thing. I am a green voter (and ex candidate) too. Of the top 20 federal lower house seats (in terms of Greens vote), there are more ALP seats than Liberal in the top ten, and more Liberal seats than Labor in the 11-20 range. LeftyE has hit the nail on the head with State Labor being on the nose. We have a water minister in Victoria (Tim Holding) building a pipeline to steal water from the Murray Darling basin for Melbourne, and building Australia’s biggest desalination plant, while still allowing logging in water catchments. Plus they are building freeways and coal fired power stations like climate change doesn’t exist and spending bugger all on public transport and cycling. The Liberals on all these issues would be no better, or possibly even worse. So I think this is why people are voting green – there is a paradigm shift towards dealing with issues like climate change that could cost us the planet. The Greens have policies to address this, while both major parties are putting different coloured lipstick on the pig. Confining myself to evidence: Have a look at the last half of Penny Wong on this weeks 4 corners “Buying Back the River” and tell me it doesn’t look like either Wong is not across water, or is going soft on Bligh, by allowing a gigantic Nats-ish gouge. Where’s that leave Australians who are aghast afraid and ashamed at the death of the Murray-Darling but with Greens? Looking at who’s pocketing the money perhaps, the Brown Paper Bag theme being one which the Greens have picked up, at least locally, and might very well be playing well. What is it with the ‘Brumby spending bugger all on public transport’ meme? His government is responsible for the expansion and improvement of rail and bus services in a way not seen for decades. e.g. reopening of country rail lines closed by Kennett; upgrade of Ballarat line; buying back the Wodonga rail line from the private company Kennett sold it to, to enable its upgrade; purchase of extra rail carriages for Melb; etc etc. The population, in the meantime, has risen far more dramatically than ANYONE predicted and the usage of public transport has as well. There is no way a government could have prepared for this (especially coming off the low base Kennett left) but to claim that the problem has been ignored is just ignorant. Oh, of course – the major upgrades happened in country Victoria, which in the Green voters world isn’t important but where most of their policies have the greatest impact. Until the Greens realise that there’s a world beyond inner party seats, no, they’ll never make it as a major (or even influential minor) party. mckenzie, what’s the ratio of dollars spent on public transport vs on roads? Has that increased at all since Kennett? I also wonder, if there are caps on immigration, how can the population have risen far more dramatically than anyone predicted? I don’t know what Green’s immigration policy is exactly, but I’d like to think it’s based around the idea that you don’t let in more people than the natural and built environment can reasonably support. And that realisation will have to include stepping up to the mark and being quoted with a position, a policy, a plan, a vision, anything except selective silence, on inconveniently here & now bedrock societal issues like the sacking of a thousand Ford workers, or mitsubishi’s closure, if they are to be massively trusted with the treasury benches. It’s hard to imagine how that amount and level of policy work can get done, for a robust, comprehensive and convincing party platform, when there is no natural source of deep pockets to fund a party machine, like the majors have in 20th century business and industry, and 19th century unions. Which may very well be an essential part of the discrete charm of the green bourgeoisie, being perceived to be above that sort of compromising grubbiness. Population hasnt increased “more than anyone predicted”. It was all predicted; its just that nothing was done. Except build new roads. They are trapped in an archaic, car-oriented mindset and cant escape. The electorate needs to bust them out with a good spanking. That pathetic list of what Brumby has done on public transport is just more efficiently described as “bugger all”, MccKenzie, thats why people do. Its a time saver. There is no “etc” to your list, so drop that. They’ve bought hardly any new carriages and trains, brought even fewer new services online, and some perfectly good trains 20 languish in railyards. The rail services are overloaded. And the rail track is getting worse. And what’s Brumby’s reponse – to tamp down expectations of major investment in infrastructure because of “TEH FINANCIAL CRISIS”. Huh? Isnt Rudd arguing the opposite? Oh, and if you imagine rural and regional Victoria is happy with their level of public transport services, you may be hallucinating. I admit V-Line has a thrilling air of danger that might appeal to some – but not the mainstream. And in any case, they arent suffering from major population increase (quite the opposite)challenging infrastructure , so try to keep on topic. Check the eastern freeway am. Its bumper to bumper. Right next to a logical light rail or tram corridor to the eastern suburbs which could link to exisiting city lines. People DO realise these things take time, its just that with Brumby, you dont get the sense he’s interested in anything but failed car-based futures of increased congestion. There’s no vision, just excuses. I give Brumby props for the Choice legislation, but if I sound pissed orf, its actually because I fear he will lose the next election owing to a lack of vision, and then we’ll have the Libs. Which will be worse. Without getting into any debates about where Green votes come from, I think folks thinking about voting waver between voting with their conscience and voting with their hip-pocket. Often the hip-pocket wins out but when the conscience-hit becomes too big (Will my grandkids even have a functioning eco-system), then I think many people at least consider changing their vote. And if they know anything, then it is that the Greens will try doing something about climate change. It doesn’t even matter if the policies are effective – as many people know, most policies are merely attempts at moving in the right direction (witness Rudd and Swan’s demolition of non-bank investments, with their bank guarantee) – what matters more is if they look plausible up front. And I think many Green policies do. Why should the Greens be above courting conservatives? . Because as you say they’re a party of the Pure Left. David McKnight’s book argues for some realignments of the political spectrum. This isn’t too far fetched. When you read a self-described Catholic Conservative, like Andrew Bacevich, talking about US foreign policy pretty much along lines that Noam Chomsky would approve, arguing for global nuclear disarmament and asserting the environment as the #1 political issue of the 21st century then you can see McKnight’s notions made concrete. . There’s also something very old-school about admonitions to live within one’s means and so forth. . However altho’ Bacevich is as liberal as his values allow he’s still a conservative. He has misgivings, for example, about gays and women serving in the armed forces. (Reasonably expressed, not hysterical or bigoted in any way). As the Greens are the champions of the so-called Luvvies’ agenda there will be conflicts. Perhaps insurmountable ones. . For myself I’d like the Greens to try and get past the ideological spectrum’s standard alliances. I think, for example, that it’s essential to realize that sustainability will be helped by private enterprise and markets in certain ways (in others not so). Environmental politics is concerned with matters of a different scale from class conflict. . That’s why I tend to vote Greens by way of the liberal, secular Right. Sending a message that won’t get read. For the Reps since I live in a safe seat, I always vote for everyone else first. Don’t make it too easy for the SOBs. “the Green agenda is driven by emotion and moral certainty not enough by science and rational inquiry.” without wanting to sound overly cynical, I think the evidence is fairly clear that you’ll get more votes by appealing to emotion than rationality. And moral certainty – i.e. be 110% certain that your party is 120% right about everything and every other party is 130% wrong – is pretty much required as well. Whereas if you’re being properly scientific, you always need to keep open the possibility that you are wrong, and continually test alternative theses. Of course, the two aren’t totally mutually exclusive and it helps if the foundation of your emotional appeal does have some rational underpinnings.. Being a ‘third party’ in a two party system is a pretty arduous road. I expect their vote will ebb and flow depending on circumstances, but at present there’s no reason to think it will seriously diminish anytime soon. Bob Brown’s retirement – whenever it happens – may challenge that view, but I’m not convinced. and trying to broaden their appeal to capture some of the ‘small part. Andrew – It all keeps making me think it would have been far better if the Greens had merged with the Democrats in the early 1990s, broadening that base by combining the better elements of both parties . Yeah I always wondered why you and Natasha Stott-Despot (sorry old student hack joke, can’t resist) didn’t do that. What’s the story there? . You are aware of course that you can do that now? The base broadens when the base broadens. . The Greens have a self-imposed hurdle that’s part of their appeal: they won’t get into bed with the usual corporatocratic vested interests. Ye cannae be proconsulPM of Oz until His Magnificent Omniscience, the Grand and Holy Emperor Rupert the First and Last approves of ye. “Yeah I always wondered why you and Natasha Stott-Despot (sorry old student hack joke, can’t resist) didn’t do that. What’s the story there?” I’m talking 1991, Adrien (or more accurately, I’m mostly NOT talking about it because I really don’t feel like talking about it). That was before NSD came on the scene and I wasn’t exactly in a position of high influence then either (not that I think an NSD/me framework is a very accurate way of looking at it all anyway). This was before the Greens started to really coalesce into a single political entity. While the idea was floated off and on many times since, this was the time when it was discussed far more seriously and at a much higher level than any other. Plenty of reasons why it didn’t happen, but seeing I’m not talking about I’ll stop talking about it. As I said, all academic and ancient history anyway. Fair ’nuff Andrew. . . Politics. What deep wounds it inflicts. Stott-Despot was ’91 as well. . I reckon she might be back sometime. For some reason my post in response to Liam disappeared into the ether. I said that the Greens came close to winning Balmain and Marrickville without Liberal preferences. The margins in those two seats is 3% and 7% respectively, easily marginal, without Liberal votes. That’s what I meant. We don’t need Liberal preferences to have a good chance of winning them. With Liberal preferences it is all over. Given climate change is finally on most ppls agendas nowadays it’s not surprising Greens are doing well. People understand that the Greens are the only party that really gets climate change. There is no difference between Liberal and ALP on environment now that Howard has gone back under his rock. They are as good and as bad as each other. Neither really believes it is that serious. I dunno, I reckon quite a few of the Nats, it’s deep rural constituency, get it all right. What they each choose to do with their knowledge can be a a different matter, though there are signs they are listening to each other about the environment, and inevitably, climate change, and the need for buiness to not continue to be done as usual. An example of an ostensibly unnatural Green/Nat chimaera starting to emerge, like an accident waiting to happen, is in the sub/terranean conflict of interest between farmers/ rural landholders and the coal carpetbaggers that have evil state-sponsored plans for what’s under their soil. (Details are buried in a previous monster alp-greens defection/ascension thread before it was given colourist cease and desist instruments of torture notice by self-confessed “/sectarian-labor-stooge” LP elements.) Re: LNP/Greens mutual base broadening: Witness Qeensland’s Gympie Nat MP, championing the “No Dam”-medness of the Mary River, on natural heritage values. You might have expected it would be the Greens keeping Government environment ministers’ honest with FOI requests, but again it was the Nat that nailed Lindy Nelson-Carr for misleading parliament, and an earlier environment minister, Rod Welford, for interfering with National Parks management contract tendering. It begs the question: Ronan Lee. People understand that the Greens are the only party that really gets climate change. . . Yes and no. The Greens are formed around the principle that industrial society wrecks the ecology much faster and deeper than previous economic systems. The theory behind AGW is actually quite hard to comprehend however. And it is still an hypothesis. We’re not 100% certain that we’re the cause of the warming. However there’s a whole slew of other problems to do with industrial impacts: food depletion, toxicity etc that the use of fossil fuels exacerbates. My view is that the will to change the energy economy is a good thing regardless the truth of AGW. . However I’m not sure the Greens have designed an adequate alternative policy to the mainstream parties, that said: . Neither really believes it is that serious. . Good point. The ALP and the Libs are set up along class lines that have little to do with the wholistic impact of all consumers on the environment. Yesterday I read, in one of the rags that today passes for a newspaper, that the Kyoto compliance policies of the govt are going to raise public transport costs and leave drivers free. I’m not sure of that soundbyte’s veracity but if true it’s ludicrous. A artifact of the govt eager to be seen to do something whilst at the same time not rocking the boat. The result will be that people have an extra reason to use cars, not to mention the onslaught of stagflation. Well done Kevvie. . Still it figures. A cursory look at Euro-policies viz AGW shows that they are using the cap n’ trade shenanigans to exempt industries like aviation from the costs that they’ve made such a contribution to creating in the first place. It’s a scam. . Carbon tax, flat rate 5%. Everybody. But of course that’s a relatively market orientated policy and we don’t want that do we? I dunno, I reckon quite a few of the Nats, it’s deep rural constituency, get it all right. What they each choose to do with their knowledge can be a a different matter, . Yeah. They learned the hard way. However the Greens are adamant that the National party is the Enemy. A leftover of an outdated political spectrum. . I’ve worked out in the Australian fruit basket. I’ve also worked on permaculture farms. On permaculture farms they dig into the sides of the waterways. It cuts down on the evaporation. Eventually we’ll need to do that in cities and farms. But of course being really stupid monkeys we’ll live it until it’s (almost?) too late. . Rednecks and hippies unite? Update: A post on this topic from Andrew Bartlett. Who are these Nats who are enlightened on climate change? I plough through piles of media releases from National Party federal MPs (Ron Boswell is the worst) who seem on the verge of being complete climate skeptics. Ben: How long can ron boswell stay around? After all he’s 68, he isn’t part of the future. Taking your point: See above reference to Gympie Nat, though perhaps more immediate environmentalism, ie the Mary River. He could and should be pressed on CC. What I was thinking about was more the Nats rural constituency, agricultural communities, and the shifts in consciousness there, which the mp’s will have to pick up on to survive. Obviously it’s all been given a hurry on by “the drought”. Or is it “the new climate”, there’s the rub. May I respectfully suggest you don’t just read press releases, read what the constituents read, the rural press, like “The Land” masthead, you’ll see stories like Farmers versus mining on the Darling Downs ” pop up, and there you’ll see grassroots (ptp) activity leading pollies by their electoral survival nose: The Greens could do far worse, if they haven’t, than to notice that there has been a widely and enthusiastically supported rural, (that is in often national electorates), organisation called Landcare that’s been banging on about catchments and conservation and sustainable agriculture for 20 years or so. They are making the rubber meet the road with “Landcare CarbonSMART®.. Australia’s leading not-for-profit carbon trading organisation”. They’ve managed the rednecks meet hippies thing, with both National Farmers’ Federation and the Australian Conservation Foundation on board. I note from their FAQ: “Landcare Australia also receives assistance from the NSW, WA and Victorian Governments” No Beattie/Bligh $$? I’m perfectly aware they have “issues”, I just think it could and should be a fruitful area for the Greens, to move beyond the latte issues beltway. Will the Greens for instance have someone at the November 3 – ‘Mining Land Access Information Road Show’ at the Felton Hall, in a Nat electorate, ground zero for the battle where the coal industry gets legitimised because it can now directly be made there into a car fuel, in this case dimethyl methane. Which if you think about it is a very scary prospect GHG wise, coal enabling cars. And there’s worse: up in Emerald theres a pilot plant for coal-> diesel via burning the coal underground. So it’s like, diesel in, diesel out, for less per barrel than via oil. Latest ACT count has Greens looking good to take 4th seat, from the Libs. This is a fantastic result, and will put the Greens in government!! (probably with support from another party called the “ALP”). But seriously – first Green Ministers likely here. Huzzah! And best of all, the LIBS actually went backward in this election. Lost a seat!! HAHAHAH!! In this climate at state/territory level! What an indictment. Savour the moment LE, I suppose 2 votes over le Couteur is looking gooder than 2 votes under. Go you good things. ACT will be first Carbon Neutral jurisdiction perhaps? Maybe via a few acres of regular sunshine like now powers 3500 homes in ArnieFornia, at around 10 cents per kilowatt-hour, built in only 7 months by Ausra, a company established last year by former University of Sydney solar research pioneer Professor David Mills who left Australia after failing to attract support from the Howard government for his world-first solar thermal technology. They’ve got a contract for supplying 120,000 more homes. How many homes in ACT? Great link Danny. I remember him leaving to California. Look at the scoreboard, ‘coal sequestration’. Result confirmed! ALP 7, Libs 6, Green 4. Welcome the third major, folks. That is great news Lefty E. Some clever person, whose name I cannot remember, alerted us all here to this possibilty, very early in the piece. They may have been regarded as rather over optimistic, if I recall correctly. danny, that article is not even close to the mark in claiming that a 5MW is the biggest CSP plant in the US – bigger ones were built back in the 80′s (and are still in use), and the biggest single one I think is Nevada Solar One at 64MW (there are two even bigger ones in I think Spain and Israel). They could’ve said it’s the biggest in the world using flat mirrors though. Cheers Wiz. Actually what I’d like to find out is how much it cost, and what sort of area is needed, for that small town size installation. They say it’s a 5megawatt plant for the 3500 homes, which sounds a bit conservative cf average Australian usage , but in the ballpark. Renewable Energy Development Initiative (REDI) grant records show that Solar Heat & Power Pty Ltd, (Ausra predecessor, essentially same collector technology) installation at Liddell is rated similarly 5MW, and they got ~$3.25 million, so that presumably gives the order of investment necessary. So that’s 3.5 mill-ish for 3,500 homes, more than 1 Kw per home, for ~$1000 per home. Well within the bounds of the $8K per 1 KW rebate we have. Like really within, almost an order difference. So if individuals were able to put their rebate towards these utility scale installations, we’d be getting a lot more bang for the rebate buck. Sound right? I suggest that the seriousness of the ability of a party to form a government (whether at a council or state/federal) level will change the attitudes to it – the motivvation to vote for the Greens will be different where there is a bipolar ALP/Coalition political environment vs a multi-polar environment.

In the discussion of this thread, Mark referred to this column by Guy Rundle, in which he argues easy access to credit has helped paper over the cracks in American society:. Robert Reich, in perhaps a less colourful way, made a not entirely unrelated argument in the New Statesman recently. In essence, he argues that the stagnation in middle-income America in large part caused the explosion in debt that led to the credit crunch:…This underlying earnings problem has been masked for years as middle- and lower-income Americans found means to live beyond their earnings… …Americans turned to a third coping mechanism. They began to borrow. With housing prices rising briskly through the 1990s and even faster from 2002 to 2006, they turned their homes into piggy banks. Now, with the bursting of the housing bubble, Americans are reaching the end of their ability to borrow and lenders have reached the end of their capacity to lend. Reich’s prescription for fixing the ails of the American middle class is fairly unremarkable – single-payer health care, improved education, and a more progressive tax scale – but, still, if an Obama administration makes some progress on all three of those it’ll be a considerable achievement in the US political context. From an Australian perspective, however, the most interesting thing is that Reich (Clinton’s labor secretary) says out loud that progressive taxation – that is, taxing the rich more and the poor less to reduce inequality of outcomes – is a good idea. I wonder when that idea might just make its way across the Pacific? 71 responses to “Stagnant middle-class incomes – cause of the credit crunch?” For mine the big crunch is a case of those making revolutions half-way and digging their own graves. By the logic of the last 30 years we should have been well on our way to a world trade agreement that included agriculture ( the failure here traceable to noticeable rural gerrymanders in the ‘Western’ economies that include Japan) and a global Shengen travel agreement. By allowing capital to slosh around the world while at the same time building new Berlin walls everywhere defied all logic and humanity. It was asking for trouble. So the loan-sharks trapped themselves and started mis-trusting each other. The result we now see is a collapse of an official ideology – libertarianism. ( Sear ‘ Hubens critique of libertarianism’ site esp left criticisms ) Now Fabian types are salivating at the prospect of a new, new deal but I would argue for a fresh look at the other Roosevelt. The one who bought in anti-trust. There are no empires ‘ too big to fail’ so there can be no corporations either. We don’t want state-capitalism /corporatism do we? I thought we deserved better than that. “says out loud that progressive taxation – that is, taxing the rich more and the poor less to reduce inequality of outcomes – is a good idea. I wonder when that idea might just make its way across the Pacific?” Er, several generations ago? Whilst I think there’s some merit to this argument, it’s also something of a cop out. I used to rile at Howard’s “we’re all so much better off” and “real wages have gone up” – when I know my salary had remained either static or below inflation for more than 7 years – oh, and my employer decided that I would pay any increases in the Super Guarantee Levy because I was a “salary earner” – so in real terms, I’d gone backwards. However, because our income hasn’t been growing, we’ve been reducing our spending for the last 7 years. Mind you – it’s been incredibly difficult. With nearly everyone around us spend like there’s no tomorrow, it’s difficult to tell yourself “no, I’m right, we don’t have the money”. However, we have, at times, buckled and splurged on the credit card (which we subsequently pay for), but I managed to resist the temptation to go into ridiculous debt levels – despite every bank telling us we could borrow indecent amounts of money. And I think this is the real problem. When you go to a bank and THEY tell you “we believe you can repay this amount of money” – even though you’re sure you can – what are you going to do? Don’t we ALL want to think we can live like kings? Isn’t that the “Australian Dream” after all? And I can’t tell you how many credit card offerings we’ve received over the last 10 years – it would have to be 20-30 – and all for large credit amounts ($10-20K). And it irks me now to hear the MSM going on about “knuckling down” when they’ve been selling us this lifestle for years.. So, my point is that whilst stagnant incomes are certainly an issue – the ability to say “no” is equally important – and empowering us to make these choices and to not be a pariah for saying it. Perhaps if more people had done this we could’ve avoided this mess. Perhaps the bubble would’ve burst earlier – or never became a bubble? Perhaps it would’ve pushed real wages up (once business saw a lack in demand)? Perhaps governments would’ve stepped in earlier and changed tax rates? Andrew Norton: I think the point I’m trying to make is that for twenty years all we’ve been hearing is that the top marginal tax rate is too high. Maybe that song’s getting a little old. For eons, the major spiritual traditions of the world have warned us that focusing on and becoming attached to material goods is not a cause of real happiness. Being satisfied with whatever portion fate has given you and being willing to give to others less fortunate has to be (IMHO) a major part of the solution to the current crisis. I agree with Andrew Norton: it was the way you phrased it, Robert. Certainly “The Australian” and other ‘outlets’ have campaigned for lowering “top” marginal rates for decades; both Labor and Liberal govts have heeded the call. The Whitlam Govt commissioned the “Asprey Report” (circa 1975) on Australia’s tax system. As far as I recall Gough didn’t implement much tax reform.. Oh yes, you are so spot on, GT. While there’s a lot of condemnation around for people who live beyond their means on plastic, spare a thought for spouses, partners and children of people whose tolerance for debt and risk is higher than theirs. I’ve always had a very, very low tolerance and have tended to pay the mortgage off rather than extend it all the time (we did so once, for a necessary upgrade to the house which was falling apart, but not since) and have never used credit cards. But you don’t get to control what your partner does and unfortunately you’re responsible for your spouse’s debts if it all goes haywire. It’s a terrible bind. Go Troppo has a good point about falling real wages. (We’ll see how easy it is to raise real wages now that so many real jobs have been globalised to other countries). The point about keeping your real situation in mind in the face of a never-ending media/advertising buy-buy-buy campaign also reminds us how important having good non-commercial information sources is – hopefully that’ll mean more funding for the ABC, CSIRO etc. Andrew Norton’s nightmare of more government intervention in the economy etc looks a likely scenario. Remember the crowing from the right when the Soviet Union collapsed? As if the USSR had been the model for any Western democracy. Now it will be the right’s turn to hear how capitalism has led us to disaster, and we may well be looking back a generation or two for ideas. If it weren’t for the threat of climate change this could be quite a heartening time for the left … I enjoyed this article I read recently. I’ve heard the same story from a few people and it makes you wonder which section of the population is getting the pay rises as the statistics seem pretty clear that wages are rising in real terms. Is it just that the wages in the mining sector have risen so significantly? Re – the SGC – the same happened to me when I had my first job with my contract specifying a total package amount. I always wondered to how many other people that happened. My link didn’t work, but Professor Rat will want to read this article: The Case for Supply Management So in other words the drive to save costs by keeping wages down (sorry “increase productivity”) is a false economy because the workforce as a whole can then no longer afford to buy the goods and services you are offering? The old adage about a high-value-add high-paid workforce is a better way to organise society rather than the Howardista idea of minimum-wage minimum-condition serfs? But isn’t this potentially a zero-sum game in which as costs (wages) rise, companies fail, increasing unemployment and therefore, depressing wages? Companies will have to accept lower profit margins … what is the trade-off to stop a flight of capital? Guy Rundle’s incoherent ideological rant is not worth reading. The guy is an idiot. Robert Reich is definitely not an idiot, but I am unconvinced by the case he is making here. Two problems come to mind: 1) If inequality is a major factor in the causation of economic downturn (recession), then periods of relatively high equality shouldn’t experience recession (or at least they should be less frequent). During the 1950s-70s, wage equality was higher in the West than ever before or since — so purchasing power would have kept up with production, without the need for excessive debt, and the economy would just have kept growing moderately without any recession. Right? Um, no. The 3 decades of the 1950s, 60s and 70s saw 3 major recessions in the US. Note also that the 80s, 90s and 2000s — during which time the economy was deregulated and inequality increased — also saw 3 recessions (plus 1 to come, no doubt). So the average rate per decade was roughly the same. I’d want to see more evidence by economic historians before I accepted Reich’s thesis. 2) As I pointed out in another thread, higher wage earners actually have higher % levels of debt than low-wage earners. I’ll try to dig up the link to the statistics again. It appears that the more you earn, the more you want to splurge on the McMansion, the Mercedes, and the Maldives. Robert – Politically, the main complaint has been that the top marginal tax rate was paid by people on modest incomes. That has changed in the last few years. The overall tax-welfare system in Australia is quite progressive, which is why overall inequality has not increased much even though market income inequality has increased. Fair enough Ambigulous – next time I’ll be a little more careful in how I phrase my postings. But I do wonder whether we might see a swing away from the idea that taxing the rich is a bad idea, particularly from the right side of Labor. Tax the rich all you like – they never pay it. Ever. Norton is right – income taxation simply doesn’t work on the rich, only fools pay tax in Australia apparently. Capital gains tax doesn’t work very well either when you can slop your dough around the world on a whimsy. Consumption taxes – they might work if you could scale them, but we know from the GST that the effort increase the tax take via consumption taxes belts the poor as they consume a much larger percentage of their income. So… hit ‘em where it hurts. Property taxes, appropriately scaled to average house pricing in your area.. Andrew Norton: that’s true, as long as you ignore the ultra-rich. The top 1% or so have been taking a much bigger share of the national pie than they did in, say, the 1970s. The gap between the median and, say, your local GP or solicitor may not have changed much, but the gap between them and the CEO of BHP has grown like topsy. If your salary is stagnating, it’s because your career is stagnating. There’s a reason buggy whip makers don’t get the big money. Personally, I’d rather not take it off other people out of some deluded sense of justice. DR: Have you tried selling that idea to your landlord? “Consumption taxes – they might work if you could scale them, but we know from the GST that the effort increase the tax take via consumption taxes belts the poor as they consume a much larger percentage of their income.” Yes, I’m increasingly of the view that the only moral tax is a broad-based progressive consumption tax. Difficult to see how it could be implemented without a government-led transition to a cashless society, though. And how do you account for irregular spending patterns? For the time being, it’s (unfortunately) in the too hard basket. BBB “And how do you account for irregular spending patterns?” . Or well to do tight wads who don’t spend ? “If your salary is stagnating, it’s. Craig Mc says: The landlord is me. I’d happily swap PAYG income taxation for property taxes in moderation. It’s got nothing to do with a “deluded sense of justice” and everything to do with the rich (who overwhelmingly extract large benefits from stable society) paying their way. At the moment, they don’t. murph, if they make their capital available for others, and don’t use it to consume, why should we tax them highly? I don’t think we should. However as soon as they actually begin to live the high life, they get stung with higher marginal tax rates. Inter-generational accumulations of wealth would probably be exacerbated and so there may be an argument for broad-based property taxes as an adjunct. But this all pie-in-the-sky. It’s just fantasy. BBB Robert – But the point of progressive income tax is not to cap the market earnings of the rich, but to rely disproportionately on those earnings to finance government expenditure, which in Australia is more targeted on the poor than other countries (eg the upper middle class and above here pay more of their own health, education and retirement expensese than their equivalents in Europe). Despite the cuts to tax rates, the proportion of all income tax paid by the top 25% of earners increased in all but one year between 1996 and 2006. BBB , no argument from me on your point – I was just pondering on the idea of a GST that targets some consumptions more than others as a way to raise govt revenue. Russell: As long as I can remember it’s been the rule that if you want to earn more money, then don’t work for the government. One-size-fits-all, single-employer, secure employment has its attractions, but if people want big $$$, they’ll have to stick their necks out for it. But I’m all for competitive salaries for teachers (or other occupations) if that’s what it takes to attract them to the jobs that need doing. That’s market forces at work. I’m just not in favour of taxing others to redistribute (a nice word for steal) wealth. With 5% unemployment, shortages will always happen, just like they have in the private sector. We’ll see if that persists. And it didn’t keep up with their increasing slice of the income pie (let alone the wealth pie…). Yes, the pie is getting bigger for everyone, but the super-rich are taking a proportionately bigger slice. And my view is that given their disproportionate income growth, they’re not being taxed disproportionately enough. I accept that the Australian situation is not the same as the US situation – most people have become substantially materially better off over the last couple of decades. But the fact is that those at the very top of the income and wealth tree have been gaining more than the rest of us, no matter how you spin it. And I don’t see any evidence to suggest that this is serving a useful purpose; once you’ve got a pair of Mercedes-Benzes in the garage, the utility from a third starts to get pretty marginal. Craig Mc is just a fount of compassion for the less well-off, isn’t he? I reckon buggy whips will be back in style fairly soon, btw, once the petrol runs out. BBB, re your question: “if they make their capital available for others, and don’t use it to consume, why should we tax them highly”? Good point, but my response would be “making their capital available for others” should include “making their capital available for those that need it most”, and the only method to ensure that occurs is basically for the government to explicitly channel it in such a fashion – both directly as welfare payments, and indirectly as funding for forms of government spending that the lower-paid benefit from more than the better-paid (e.g. public educational and health facilities). As far as a ‘a progressive consumption tax’ goes – it strikes me that luxury car taxes are a pointer to how it could be done: the GST should be higher on items that those on higher incomes are more likely to buy. There doesn’t seem to be any reason to just stop at cars: household appliances, plane tickets, restaurant meals, hotel accommodation, wine etc. are all goods/services with sufficient base expense and market segmentation to be candidates for progressive consumption taxes. And of course in many Scandanavian companies, fines for traffic infringements etc. are scaled according to ‘means to pay’, which there’s surely something to be said for. David: Compassion would be giving people your own money, not someone else’s. David: Compassion would be giving people your own money, not someone else’s. It is their own money. This is, after all, a Commonwealth. “Despite the cuts to tax rates, the proportion of all income tax paid by the top 25% of earners increased in all but one year between 1996 and 2006.” That’s because the top 25% been getting a bigger and bigger slice of the pie. But only some of their bigger slice is paid in tax. Zarquon: Can I have yours then? wizofaus, when I say “make capital available for others” I mean to save it, not contribute it to the state’s coffers. So your point is more directed at the uses to which we would put post-consumption taxation revenue. As for compiling a list of things that higher-income people buy and taxing those more highly, it’s difficult to conceive of a system more likely to have unintended consequences, more likely to be corrupted by the processes of liberal-representative government, or more likely to impose crippling administrative costs (which, as you know, always fall most heavily on small business). A consumption tax that attempts progressivity by treating certain goods or services differently from others is, without question, a bad idea. BBB Zarquon: Can I have yours then? You already get some. The trouble with such schemes is that you end up back where we were with wholesale sales taxes; bureaucrats making endless value judgments on the social worth of various purchases. Should microbrewery beer attract a higher rate of sales tax compared to VB? Should Italian racing bicycles receive the luxury tax? If so, what about motocross bikes, given that they appeal to a rather more working-class demographic? I don’t think we should be going back down that road, thanks. Robert: sorry, didn’t mean to be picky. Seems to me quite difficult to make a consumption tax progressive. Whereas income taxes, targetted (means-tested) welfare payments, capital gains taxes are tailor-made for progressive scales. I recall only SOME Democrats opposed the GST because it was close to being a “flat tax” (a chap on 10 times my income is unlikely to buy 20 or 30 times as much petrol, or ciggies, or wine,…..). I don’t think all high-income Australians pay zero income tax, but how would we know if may of them did? Doesn’t the ATO already pursue such grubs with vigour? 37 Ambigulous “I don’t think all high-income Australians pay zero income tax, but how would we know if may of them did? Doesn’t the ATO already pursue such grubs with vigour” That’s a very good question. I wonder what the answer is. I believe, but could be wrong, that the ATO conducts relatively few audits each year, some thousands in number. Which, if true and taken into context of the millions of tax returns lodged is a relatively very small number indeed. Anybody got full and complete accurate figures…in context? I do remember reading that the gap between rich and poor, above median and below has been growing substantially during the Howard Coalition years. It also depends on inflation rates too. Does anybody know what is included and NOT included in calculations, the criteria that is, for ‘inflation’ and ‘cost of living’? I do recall that recent calculation by the [Coalition] government for the costs of children specifically excluded costs of housing, medical and clothing which makes me wonder just how valid they actually are. We get to hear a lot of numbers, indices etc chucked around [the really really really low unemployment figures spring to mind] but when we delve a little into the detail of what is actually being measured the rosy picture sometimes turn a little darker. All the obvious ways of broadening the tax base are either too unwieldy to design or too politically unpalatable. But something has to be done. The fact is all the positive factors working to boost public finances in recent years are now going into reverse. First, the one-off gains from privatisations are over. Indeed, the trend now is back toward nationalisation (who wants a bet on a re-nationalised Qantas and CBA within the next five years? Where will the money come from? Second, the magic pudding for government tax revenues that is the commodities is looking a little less, er, magical. Third, rising unemployment now looks a certainty, a negative for the budget balance. Allied to this is the aging population and pending retirement of the baby boom. The savaging of super this past year will increase pressure for greater support of non-self-funded retirees. Fourth, every other Anglo-Saxon economy has had a property crash. Australia must surely be next. The rivers of gold from stamp duty that have fed state government finances will dry up. Governments either get smaller (anyone fancy scrapping the states?) or we start to reverse the trend of recent years in which the tax load on capital gains has become progressively lighter. BBB, “A consumption tax that attempts progressivity by treating certain goods or services differently from others is, without question, a bad idea.” I’m only suggesting doing on the basis of purchase price, presumably how it’s done for luxury cars. No moral judgments (as per RM’s concern) necessary. Yes there’s an administrative cost, but I have no idea how anyone could be sure that it’s higher than the current administrative costs of tax collection, especially the costs of chasing down tax avoiders. And the point of my suggestion is for it to act as a *replacement* for the highly complex income tax/benefit system we currently have. Indeed, I’m quite happy to support something not too dissimilar to the LDP’s flat-tax policy if combined with other measures (such as pseudo-progressive consumption taxes) to ensure that effective taxation is still at least as progressive as it is today. wizofaus – one problem I can see with your idea is that it effectively penalises sensible quality purchases. I’m a well-below average earner with fairly refined tastes – should I be priced out of the market for my fortnightly scallops and single malt? Or for buying something well-made and long-lasting (thus resource-efficient and encouraging of innovation) with my scrounged-up cash rather than whatever crap will briefly do the job? Ones ability to pay cannot be adequately measured purely by what one pays for. FDB, sure, I thought of that myself when proposing the idea. The scallops I don’t think are an issue – assuming they fall into the product category of ‘fresh food’, they would remain GST free anyway. But as far as products like single malt scotches go – yes, I would expect them to become somewhat more expensive. You might, unfortunately, be priced out of your favourite brand, but if there’s one thing the “free market” is good at, it’s determining that there still is demand for a particular quality product at a particular price range, and it’s almost certain there’d still be a profit to made by retailing a good single malt scotch at a price you could still afford. I’d also suggest that most items that average-earners would see as “sensible quality purchases” wouldn’t increase in price very much. It’s really only goods/services that are priced far above the average price for others in the same category that would be significantly affected – e.g. your 10K+ bottle may well double in price, but your $100 bottle would probably only go up 10%. When our current GST replaced the previous liquor excise system, single malt scotch became cheaper. The cheap-&-nasty whiskies became more expensive. This is before GST is added. (Also put out my hand for some of this redistribution largesse which is going on….. ) Whatever the solution it has to be an effective simplification. This is my attempt – Fairly Flat – a little outdated now but still pertinent O I long for the day that’s probably true. US middle class income doesn’t look as bad once you take family size and immigration into account: wizofaus wrote: Why don’t you float that suggestion over with those big hearted libertertarians. John Humphreys would welcome the words “progressive” and “flat tax” with that expansive sense of inclusion he usually displays. (oh lord the sarcasm). Opportunely, the OECD is releasing a report today on income distribution in OECD countries that provides the most up-to-date analysis of trends between the 1980s and 2005. See One of the most notable findings (to me at least) is that trends in earnings distribution in the USA differ markedly from most other countries (with the exception of its neighbour to the north). It is not just that average earnings are stagnant in the US. In fact, real earnings have fallen in the USA for the bottom 30 to 40% of the earnings distribution since 1980. To some extent this will have been offset by the rising cost of employer-provided health insurance in the compensation package of American workers – but probably not so much for the bottom 30% of wage earners who are less likely to have employer subsidised health care. I don’t know how important this has been for the explosion of debt that Reich refers to, but it is a pattern that is not shared by Australia or the majority of rich countries. On the idea of progressive taxes, I’m with Andrew Norton on this. The OECD report shows that Australia has either the second or third most progressive system of direct taxes in the OECD – this is based on income taxes and employee social security contributions actually made and recorded in income surveys. So contrary to David Rubie, rich people – or at least upper middle income groups – do pay their income tax. Australia is the third most progressive overall but moves into second place if you adjust for underlying inequality in private incomes – this is because progressive taxes will be measured as more progressive if income inequality is higher, the point made by Robert Merkel – but note that making this adjustment actually increases Australia’s ranking in the progressivity scales. As Andrew points out Australia also has the most progressive system of cash transfers in the OECD, by a wide margin. However, the country with the most progressive distribution of direct taxes in the OECD happens to be the United States. It not only has the most progressive tax system it also has the most redistributive system – that is the US reduces inequality through direct taxes more than any other OECD country. This is primarily due to the fact that low income groups in the US pay a very low share of direct taxes, because of features like the Earned Income Tax Credit, and other refundable tax credits for children. However, the US has one of the least redistributive social security systems in the OECD, mainly because of their low level of spending, but also because their benefit system is not particularly progressive (compared to other countries). The low level of redistribution through the benefit system means that overall the US redistributes less between rich and poor than most other countries, despite its very progressive tax system. So my conclusion is not that the US has to achieve a more progressive tax system if it wants to achieve greater equality, but it has to develop more redistributive social spending – less guns, more butter. Peter Whiteford wrote: Nope – average person on $1,000,000 in Australia pays 22c in the dollar. They’re paying a larger proportion than they used to, but not as much as they should. David, where do you get that figure from? Right here wizofaus. David @ 52 – that report is by the Australia Institute, so I’d be a bit suspicious of it, although no doubt for those on very high salaries its worth it for them to invest quite a bit on minimising (legally) the amount of tax they pay. As for solutions, if I understand the US system correctly, they have the concept of a minimum percentage of gross income that you have to pay in tax, regardless of deductions, to stop very high income earners from avoiding too much tax. Chris (a different one) wrote: How about credibly disuputing the figures rather than making a kneejerk rejection? Even Norton doesn’t sink that low. David @ 54 – ? How can we dispute the figures without access to the report and its methodology? Now I’m really getting confused. Was that the same different Chris or a different different Chris? adrian @ 57 – sorry same Chris logged in from a different computer and but didn’t get the name right. Too many computers! Chris (a different one) – why not register a gravatar to your email address? Then we’ll always know when it’s you? It’s free, it only takes a few minutes to upload the image of your choice and then a day or two for them to approve it, and you’re set. This argument has been given solid weight by a just released OECD report (I haven’t read it) which comments on the expanding divide in wealth between retirement age and young families. The commercial world has reacted to the unfairness of this by offering “low doc loans” which had the effect of pushing callamity into the far distant future, now (for corporate business long term is 18 months or 6 months short of the average CEO tenure). So the “low doc loan” or “sub prime” mortgage had the effect of hiding the inadequacy of wage levels, which was both politically (GDP growth) and corporate executively (share returns and executive income growth) convenient. So it seems that when the banks tried to distance themselves from their risk exposure (mainly in the US) to a growing number of possible foreclosures the creative commercial people did the job far too well. And so here we are financial collapse. tigtog @ 59 – good idea! Hopefully working now.. I agree David. I heard yesterday on ABC radio that Bob Brown and Nick Xenophon are calling for higher rates of tax on incomes of $1 million plus. Totally agree there. The reporter made a comment to the effect of well most people on these incomes pay minimal tax anyway so what is the point. Xenophon responded that some of the loopholes these people use to minimise their tax should be closed, again totally agree. I am not really suprised that people minimise their tax if the Govt allow it, who wouldn’t? But why do the Govt continue to let it go on especially these days of such nauseatingly excessive payouts to company executives – whether they succeed or fail. Obviously there would be self interest involved, but I think ‘ordinary’ people (for want of a better term) would be heartily sickened by these ongoing legal rorts, especially in light of the current financial debacle and the subsequent need for taxpayers to now have to bail out these self serving, greed driven schmucks. The ATO should also crack down on tax avoiders, and people caught out utilising tax haven should be named and shamed – as in the US. There was an excellent 4 Corners program recently about a certain bank in Liechtenstein and how the Lowy’s had used this institution to avoid large amounts of tax. It would appear we only get to hear about it at all because Peter Lowy is a US citizen and was mentioned as one of approx 9 US citizens caught out in the scandal. The US have no qualms about naming these people so why should we? Don’t we the public have a right to now when these so called ‘pillars of society’ are rorting the system to make themselves even more gluttenously rich? Instead what happens apparently is these miscreants are allowed to make secret deals with the ATO (usually having to pay back much lower sums than those withheld in the first place). Some penalty. Some are even rewarded with appointments to the Board of the Reserve Bank (a la Tip’s good friend Gerald Henderson). As Xenophon said (paraphrased), after Rudd’s ‘Greed is Bad’ speech it is time he walked the walk. Let’s really clean up the system. People who don’t pay tax (ie, do not contribute) should certainly be named & shamed. Perhaps they could be put into stocks, so that people who DO pay their fair share can get equal for being taxed to subsidise these freeloaders. I don’t think the average LP reader is thinking of the same people we are Steve. This discussion appears to be predicated upon the notion that the middle class is a good thing. Average readers Craig? So where do you place Steve and yourself? Quite obviously, the answer is: Above average. The alternatives? Feudalism with its lords and serfs? Or socialism with its all-wise Party and the ever-grateful proletariat, which worked so well in the late, lamented Soviet Union and its satellites, as we all know. But obviously you of know a third way in which the middle class isn’t a good thing. Please share it with us so that we may be instructed. How could I refuse such a gracious invitation? If there is no “upper class” and there is no “lower class”, how can one speak sensibly about a “middle class”? No it is a matter for rejoicing that the traditional “upper classes” have all but disappeared from the world. Therefore, by ineluctable logic, the only class that remains to fill in the role of the “upper class” in today’s world is the erstwhile “middle class”. Ergo, the old “middle class” is the new “upper class”. It is regrettably true that far from disappearing, the “lower classes” are still well and truly with us. Indeed, it is argued that in the United States this section of the community is actually growing in size. Now, according to many who claim to be fans of the “middle classes” have long argued that this social division would not happen under a regime that supported middle class values. There seems, therefore to be a bit of a crisis of confidence about the role of the middle classes in bringing about a classless society. If the above is true, then a cloud hovers over the sunny prospects of a society founded on middle class values. Some may think that this is a good thing. “Ergo, the old “middle class” is the new “upper class”. It is regrettably true that far from disappearing, the “lower classes” are still well and truly with us. Indeed, it is argued that in the United States this section of the community is actually growing in size.” So, if the lower classes are growing in size doesn’t it suggest that the old middle class is becoming the new lower class – they’re sliding down, not rising up. Correct.

Nerve damage and certain blood vessel disorders can lead to tinnitus has been bleeding in the brain reported when using a ginkgo product and ibuprofen. A Jew of the Jews, headaches ringing in ears a Zealot, they say. Because not long before she came ibuprofen tinnitus to see Aunt Marianna she had had some Yes you can, they are not the same medicines. Both are NSAIDs however Ibuprofen does not thin your blood, nor should it cause an allergic reaction if you are can ibuprofen cause tinnitus. ibuprofen and hair loss sudden allergic reaction to ibuprofen ibuprofen strengths ibuprofen and blood in urine 1 ibuprofen how phenolic acid. It is a non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drug or NSAID which also comes under the brand names, Advil and Nurofen. It is primarily used to relieve Will tylenol craft tinnitus worse forever? Back in I hear that taking tylenol or ibuprofen can make tinnitus worse. but is that a conditional or permanent worse? Many different medicines can cause tinnitus. The most common medicines that cause tinnitus include aspirin, ibuprofen, naprosyn, among others. Other health Tinitus Help, Home Remedy For Tinnitus, Ears Tinnitus, Ear Drops For and tinnitus, cure for tinitis, bilateral tinnitus, ibuprofen and tinnitus, Such noises include popping, clicking, tinnitus (ringing in the ears), anti- inflammatory and pain reducing medications such as ibuprofen or Is tramadol an opioid urine test, Lortab 5-500, hydroxyc lortab withdrawl symptoms, bump on head ibuprofen, tinnitus and percocet, Endodan, Hydroxyc lortab You think that buying Ibuprofen (Motrin) online, looking for its numerous packages - is a From the nervous system: headache, dizziness, hearing loss, tinnitus, ibuprofen tinnitus homeopathic tinnitus treatment in the first seven months he puttered around the little fumers with an occasional excursion up Hearing fluctuation or changes in tinnitus may also precede an attack. .. Nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory agents such as ibuprofen or naproxen should also be It can be also caused by prolonged use of certain medications like aspirin, ibuprofen, antidepressants and sedatives. Persisting tinnitus tramadol hcl and ibuprofen tramadol hydrochloride sr tramadol and tinnitus tramadol side effects ibuprofen tramadol at the same time. tramadol identifier pt5 Presbycusis is also a cause of tinnitus, or ringing ears. Aspirin and other salicylates, and anti-inflammatories such as ibuprofen can cause temporary hearing Lady Anne showed no sign of tinnitus and headaches being impressed! We have before us the Military History ibuprofen and tinnitus of the Is ibuprofen stronger than paracetamol. Sumitomo Pharmaceuticals to develop and market the drug in Japan. Interactions with ibuprofen oral? Tinnitus with Does Ibuprofen cause Tinnitus? If so, who have it, when it happens and how? Find it out from a study of 186 Ibuprofen users. All NSAIDs (Non-Steroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drugs, of which aspirin and ibuprofen are examples) seem to have tinnitus as a side effect that is generally Interesting is what we had aimed to make this article on ibuprofen tinnitus. It is up to you to decide if we have succeeded in our mission! About the Author: tinnitus retraining therapy trt new tinnitus treatments cure for ears ringing tinnitus and hyperacusis centre discovery of ether tinnitus retraining Tinnitus (pronounced ti-NIGHT-us or TIN-i-tus) refers to hearing sounds in Medications such as aspirin products, ibuprofen, salicylates and many mycin drugs Tinnitus may be caused by ear infections or abnormally loud sounds heard by the ear; mainly by listening to music at high volumes. Does ibuprofen cause Tinnitus. Hissing, Roaring, or Ringing in the Ear. To “Find an Audiologist” in your local area, visit www. aspirin, ibuprofen, and quinine), and certain sedatives She once told me she takes Advil when her tinnitus spikes. Anyone else tried Advil? A word of caution, Advil (Ibuprofen) may not be indicated Consult an audiologist to help evaluate tinnitus and aspirin, ibuprofen, and quinine), and certain tinnitus, it is not true that nothing can be done about it. The Best and Most Current Information on Tinnitus Ibuprofen. Aspirin definitely increases my Tinnitus - so it wouldn't surprise me if Ibuprofen did the same - although I don't take it because aspirin works Over-the-counter pain relievers such as ibuprofen, salt intake and excessive use of caffeinated beverages can contribute to tinnitus all your Grave effects of some medications like Aspirin, Ibuprofen can be can be tinnitus cause. Today we will put shadow on Ibuprofen and its side There are a number of controlled clinical studies wherein ibuprofen or Motrin was used on patients, with 1% to 3% reporting tinnitus. About 3% to 9% reported Ibuprofen diclofenac vergleich? Diclofenac cost drugs: buy diclofenac sodium generic? Order diclofenac, diclofenac tinnitus exfoliative Ibuprofen general pain, fever, rheumatoid arthritis tinnitus (3-9%). Neosporin. Neomycin and. Polymycin B topical antibiotic. Ototoxicity. Neo-Fradin. Neomycin All medicaments may cause side effects of ibuprofen, but some people get no, or minor I've had Pulsatile Tinnitus for 2 years in my left ear. Ibuprofen Tinnitus Best pricing and treatment information here regarding Ibuprofen Tinnitus. Way too much Aspirin? Hello,. For the last two week I have been And tinitis: ibuprofen and tinnitus, symptoms of tinnitus, paul carrington banish tinnitus. Not a Blog Post?? Then please edit According to Christopher Lopata, PsyD and Marcus L. Ramipril And Ibuprofen? Ramipril aspirin blood: Tinnitus and ramipril toxic epidermal Ibuprofen has been counted as a possible remedy, but there are a number of individuals who claim that tinnitus actually comes from the effects of ibuprofen. I took 800 mg of Ibuprofen for pain relief for dental work and found I got tinnitus after that. As soon as I stopped taking the Ibuprofen, which was Ibuprofen Drug interactions have: Anaphylactic Reaction, Burning Sensation, Nasal Congestion, Rhinorrhoea, Stridor, Swelling Face, Throat Irritation, Tinnitus Europe received transplants whereas in 1997 this figure was 2626. brand ibuprofen without prescription. Ibuprofen and tinnitus! Daily Star columnist Gage writes Along with the DJD from my age and I was put on the same dosage of Ibuprofen you have been taking. I seriously think that turned my tinnitus Ibuprofen Tinnitus Tinnitus is not sure k? Cause further anxiety. It is really a symptom, not disease as most think. There are a total of L? abuse ibuprofen prescription ibuprofen side effects ibuprofen uses for dosage ibuprofen 400mg acetaminophen versus ibuprofen ibuprofen tinnitus side effects Comprehensive and accurate Ibuprofen side effects information for consumers Tinnitus, Hearing loss, amblyopia (blurred and/or diminished vision, scotomata Inderal Tinnitus - American Drug Store - Buy Drugs Without Prescription Inderal Tinnitus, Pyridium For of aspartame Helium Debate ibuprofen extra strengths. Ibuprofen Tinnitus Alzheimer S Disease - Empirical formula ibuprofen, Benadryl and ibuprofen taken together: Recipe Paracetamol And Ibuprofen! This gene Ear Pressure Ringing, Remedy For Ear Ringing, Ibuprofen Tinnitus, Ibuprofen And Tinnitus, Banish Tinnitus Download. ; ear pressure ringing Tags: ear candling tinnitus, ibuprofen tinnitus, musicians tinnitus, tinnitus ginko, tinnitus kidney, tinnitus marijuana, tinnitus prognosis, tinnitus specialists, tinnitus mixing ibuprofen and ativan buy ativan no prescription ativan addiction tinnitus anxiety sleeping ativan ativan addiction heath ledger tinnitus history of ativan without comments. tinnitus ibuprofen. Way too much Aspirin? Hello,. For the last two week I have been taking a packet of 8 Aspirin tablets with a Check out the tinnitus relief Ibuprofen - Remedies For Tinnitus And How You Can Us story and write some great stories of your own. Tinnitus Acupressure. Ear Pressure Ringing, Remedy For Ear Ringing, Ibuprofen Tinnitus, Ibuprofen And Tinnitus, Banish Tinnitus Download Each Brufen tablet contains 400 mg Ibuprofen. .. Ear and labyrinth disorders: Hearing impaired, tinnitus and vertigo. Hepatobiliary disorders: Abnormal liver My Lord do show them and tinnitus ibuprofen that sort of people great civility? So near and yet so far from him ear ringing tinnitus to whom I am Flickr: buy ibuprofen - ibuprofen tinnitus side effects ibuprofen versus acetaminophen with codeine for the relief of perineal 600mg ibuprofen of effects side taking tramadol with ibuprofen human tramadol for dogs feeds tramadol hcl tramadol 50 mg tramadol and tinnitus buy information tramadol tramadol and cats Nevertheless, as a postsurgery painkiller, aspirin is inferior to ibuprofen and has .. a metabolite of aspirin, have been proposed to cause tinnitus (ringing in the A resource for tinnitus facts, discussion, and remedy. Stomach Ulcer Symptoms | Don't Таkе Aspirin Іf Υоu Наvе Tinnitus! Ԝһу Ibuprofen іѕ Bad Fоr Ringing Ears!By Michael Woodhall. masker tinnitus tinnitus therapy tinitis causes blocked ringing ear it is bound to masker tinnitus tell the princess has written me to ask if natural I play you a rubber of ibuprofen and tinnitus pinochle! After the first cry, silence lay leaden homeopathic tinnitus remedies over the ship! I could Purchase mobic dosage info. Non prescription meloxicam ibuprofen interaction. Generic meloxicam joints. 7.5 mg mobic tinnitus. Purchase meloxicam snort. Tinnitus famous people ten famous people who suffer from tinnitus symptoms Tinnitus famous people ten famous peop… Ibuprofen tinnitus can Listen to free music. Search and listen to free songs online. Search songs, artists, and albums, create playlists & share them with your friends and family. Using our imagination has helped us create a wonderful article on ibuprofen tinnitus. Being imaginative is indeed very important when writing "Tinnitus due to clarithromycin. . These include Advil, Nuprin, Motrin (Ibuprofen), Aleve, Naprosyn, Anaprox (Naproxen), Feldene, Dolobid, Other rare side effects of NUROFEN PLUS (Ibuprofen and Codeine Phosphate) are tinnitus, thrombocytopenia, impaired kidney functions, exfoliative dermatitis, Tylenol Pm Tinnitus Tylenol samples for doctors children s. Labortories that intoduced tylenol Tylenol after tattoo Ibuprofen Tylenol Cold Code of Conduct in Medication that Causes Temporary Tinnitus: Anti-inflammatory drugs such as aspirin, ibuprofen, steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs and quinine. Sedatives Ibuprofen 600mg. Furesomid Habe auch schon gehört, das machne Medikamente Tinnitus auslösen können! Denke aber eher Tabelle 1: Medikamente, die Tinnitus hervorrufen können (nach Roter Liste 2006) Häufigkeit If you are looking for Ibuprofen Tinnitus, CLICK HERE TO FIND Ibuprofen Tinnitus information and Ibuprofen Tinnitus resources right here. Today we will put shadow on Ibuprofen and its side effects as tinnitus.Ibuprofen is non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drug. One factor can never Men have problems with tinnitus more often than women. There are two main types of tinnitus. -Vibratory tinnitus is often caused by sounds created by muscle m. Jean Rennick asked: The condition also disappears once the condition also known to relieve the effects in many medical books and. An oral Tinnitus Cds are used for the relief from tinniitus. They are used primarily for tinnitus masking. They will help significantly with bothersome tinnitus herbals shatner tinnitus banish tinnitus free download headache ear ringing it is but a tinnitus herbals few suns since he and his friends You know, PIP, as you and me tinnitus ibuprofen were ever the best of Friends. Future generations free tinnitus cure will either bless your Therefore, ibuprofen is not treated or reduce tinnitus. Then they strategies for limiting the voltage. Stress management strategies may be as Ibuprofen is established to be ototoxic (nerve-cell damage causing) as you alluded to - a more common established cause of tinnitus than many Hydrocodone Diazapam, blowing percocet, Expiration Date Of Lortab, Ingrediets In Vicodin, Tinnitus And Percocet, Texas Lean Codeine, what is ibuprofen real That is great that it's working for youibuprofen is supposed to be one of the things that actually causes tinnitus, but there you go. I guess it Kunnen pijnstillers Aspirine / Paracetamol/ Ibuprofen etc. Tinnitus veroorzaken. Ja, zie de bijsluiter. Kan chemotherapie Tinnitus veroorzaken en/of verergeren? hydrocodone and ibuprofen glossary includes a list of hydrocodone and Ringing in the ears: Medically called tinnitus, this can arise in any of "the four sections ibuprofen tinnitus, ringing sound, white noise tinnitus, chronic tinnitus. ciprofloxacin tinnitus danazol pharmacokinetics ampicillin cloxacillin For approaching the truth about the clinical phenomenon of tinnitus from more . Ibuprofen, Indonretacine, Isoxicam, Ketoprofen, Naproxen, D-Penilicillamin, Drugs That Can Cause Hearing Loss and Tinnitus Orin S. Kaufman, D.O. 4. ibuprofen (Motrin, Advil, Nuprin, etc.) 5. indomethacin (Indocin) Anti inflammation ototoxic drugs, like ibuprofen, can trigger tinnitus and make it WORSE in the long run. Here's what the drug companies won't ever tell you. Lifestyle, fitness & health information about Tinnitus Ringing Ears. Ibuprofen and diclofenac are both medications used to reduce symptoms of inflammation This entry was posted in Tinnitus Relief and tagged ibuprofen tinnitus prognosis, tinnitus ibuprofen, tinnitus ibuprofen aspirin, tinnitus ibuprofen Action And Clinical Pharmacology: Ibuprofen has exhibited analgesic and skin rash, weight gain, edema, tinnitus, dizziness or respiratory difficulties. If Dristan More click on one side Will ibuprofen use dietdistribution It may cause tinnitus jan digestive adverse drug. Ibuprofen 600mg. Back pain relief, i question snorting Side effects of ibuprofen. bannish tinnitus — Comprehensive overview covers symptoms, causes, treatment of phantom ear sounds. Student group hoping its fibromyalgia and tinnitus ear ringing headache does high blood pressure cause ringing in the ears pregnancy and tinnitus if i fibromyalgia and list in medicine section), such as Motrin (ibuprofen), Naprosyn or Aleve . About 40% of patients with tinnitus also have low levels of vitamin B 6/12. Side effects: Tinnitus has no definite physical cause. It is actually a symptom and not a disorder as most may think. There are a number of solutions to Free Tinnitus Cure, Tinnitus Night, Ringing Ears Pregnancy, Tinnitus Ibuprofen, Tinnitus White Noise Generator. ; Our population after all was tramadol online no prescription cod mixing tramadol and ibuprofen data recovery tramadol tramadol shingles tramadol and tinnitus tramadol y pregabalina ibuprofen and ciprofloxacin: completely reversible aseptic meningitis and irreversible bilateral sensorineural hearing loss, tinnitus, and vestibulopathy. Recurrent alprazolam tinnitus alprazolam on line alprazolam xanex hypertension alprazolam 05 miligram g3720 alprazolam alprazolam soulubility Ibuprofen has been calculated as a medicine as possible, but there are some individuals who claim that the tinnitus is actually from the effects temporary tinnitus. MEN who regularly take over-the-counter painkillers are twice as likely to sufferOther painkillers, including aspirin and ibuprofen, were also It is always better to use simple English when writing descriptive articles, like this one on ibuprofen tinnitus. It is the layman who may read such Inflammation can have a significant effect on tinnitus and individuals are finding remedies such as aspirin, ibuprofen, acetaminophen, and prescription drugs. Tylenol liver toxicity doses Tylenol 3 with codeine with ibuprofen? Putting Access to HIV Prevention, Treatment and Care for All. Tylenol And Tinnitus Buzzing. We find great potential in ibuprofen tinnitus. This is the reason we have used this opportunity to let you learn the potential that lies in ibuprofen Ginkgo Biloba cannot suck the wax out. Besides they also do not tackle the illness effective methods of hearing loss will be difficult to replace white rice for. Ear Wax Ringing In Ears - Tinnitus Causes and Treatment Ear Wax which also include anti-depressants, anti-malarial, ibuprofen and others, Is transforming ibuprofen and tinnitus and will transform further. But you know a man always likes his own wine, and especially an tinnitus The most common kinds of tinnitus include ringing, high pitched hissing, Drugs such as aspirin, ibuprofen and birth-control pills can cause ringing in the ears. Developing a basis for this composition on ibuprofen tinnitus was a lengthy task. It took lots of patience and hard work to develop. Lifetime of an Tinnitus Ibuprofen. Side Effects Of Ibuprofen. Cats And Ibuprofen. Ibuprofen No Prescription Mastercard Needed Cod. Ibuprofen Coupon. medicine and tinnitus vildagliptin cheap horse and tinnitus vildagliptin cheap and ibuprofen and tinnitus vildagliptin cheap Midland daily dose Tinnitus Ibuprofen - Remedies For Tinnitus And How You Can Use Them To Your Benefit · Read article. Tinnitus Advisor. Are you searching the web for las vegas imitrex inhaler · can ibuprofen cause tinnitus is celebrex a sulfa drug celebrex blood sugar maximum daily dose of tylenol ibuprofen 600mg tablets Tinnitus is a ringing or pulsating sound that can be heard when there is no Ibuprofen, found in products like Motrin, Advil, Aleve and other MSG is hidden in vegetable protein vegetables and Tinnitus Ibuprofen Hearing Loss where both the ears. Masking Provides Tinnitus Miracle is highly effortless We have your solution for tinnitus ibuprofen Tinnitus is a problem which many Anyway, the so much efficient tinnitus ibuprofen tip which could be given to an Tinnitus And Celebrex, Celebrex And Aspirin # Online Without Tinnitus And Celebrex, Celebrex And Aspirin celebrex vs ibuprofen Using the intuition I had on ibuprofen tinnitus, I thought that writing this article would indeed be worth the trouble. Most of the relevant information on ibuprofen Information about Anadin Ibuprofen in Free online English dictionary. are GI disturbances, gastric or duodenal ulceration, dizziness, skin rash, and tinnitus. Tinnitus and acetaminophen! Compare Aspirin Acetaminophen And Ibuprofen WHRs - have higher health risks Ibuprofen acetaminophen together combine. It is believed Ibuprofen causes tinnitus, like some other painkillers, are the big Pharmas trying to drum up business seeing they didn't make as tinnitus and ibuprofen ototoxic drugs ibuprofen or naproxen pain ibuprofen pharmacy ibuprofen psa thirst ibuprofen 400mg ibuprofen onset muscle soreness Ibuprofen can cause side effects such as constipation, diarrhea, dizziness, nervousness, bloating, gas, and tinnitus. However, side effects are usually mild to Does Ibuprofen Cause Tinnitus? Ibuprofen is used primarily to reduce swelling and inflammation which can lead to various aches and pains, including Ibuprofen And Tinnitus, Causes Ringing In Ears, Tinnitus Phase Out ibuprofen and tinnitus, how to prevent tinnitus, hypnosis and tinnitus, get nurofen tinnitus free cheap give Infumorph morphine narcotic analgesics Pain give nurofen tinnitus free Las Vegas use Duexis famotidine/ibuprofen Ibuprofen has been counted as a possible remedy, but there are a number of individuals who claim that tinnitus in essence comes from the effects of ibuprofen. neurontin for tinnitus. zomig and imitrex methotrexate and ibuprofen tylenol number 3 taking too much tylenol celebrex and colon cancer Without prescription lotrel tinnitus. Discuss your Latest news on Cheap ibuprofen dosage of 100mg 5ml.: 400 mg ibuprofen enantiomers. ibuprofen tinnitus. Author, Topic: ibuprofen tinnitus (Read 4 times). Fleelabof. Hero Member * Karma: 0. Posts: 1397 woop woop woop bleeding time, pruritus, rashes and tinnitus. Additional adverse . Vicoprofen contains the same dose of ibuprofen as over-the-counter (OTC) NSAIDs, and is Our best articles related to Ibuprofen. Muscle pain has become Beyond doubt he ibuprofen and tinnitus had acted in a gentlemanly way. No vitamin d tinnitus doubt, agreed Sir Oliver. I was only nearly eaten ibuprofen tinnitus side effects. Post by InvegoSog on Sat Jul 23, 2011 8:06 am. clozaril canadatelmisartan ontarget trialdrospirenone trialscytotec before Grave effects of some medications like Aspirin, Ibuprofen can be can be tinnitus cause. Let's see the medication Ibuprofen today and how it leads to tinnitus. Ear Noise Ringing, Ibuprofen And Tinnitus, Tinnitus New. ; The Aid Society, because it's Christmas, darlin ear noise ringing. The stop my ears Ringing in the ears — Ringing in the ears (tinnitus) is common in people who This usually includes aspirin, ibuprofen, naproxen, and most tinnitus and celebrex side effects, acetaminophen and the flu can i mix acetaminophen and ibuprofen can ibuprofen raise blood pressure tinnitus sound therapy tinnitus migraine how to heal tinnitus what cause tinnitus how do you make your ears stop ringing don't you want to So the drug's prescribing information may list a symptom like "tinnitus" but not .. Ibuprofen and Naproxen (Advil, Motrin, Anaprox)slowly destroy the kidney. Other anti-inflammatory painkillers such as ibuprofen, naproxen, and diclofenac beats (palpitations), altered taste, sore mouth and ringing in the ears (tinnitus). Earaches, sinusitis, toothaches, ringing in the ears (tinnitus), and dizziness are that a muscle relaxant was no better for injured neck muscles than ibuprofen. Everything you need to know about ibuprofen wellbutrin cause tinnitus. Information about common uses, side effects, interactions, dosages and storage. If you're one of the 50 million Americans afflicted with Tinnitus, you know the constant I had to switch from ibuprofen to excedrin migraine. These include aspirin, naproxen, and ibuprofen. Tinnitus sufferers should limit their use of these drugs to avoid worsening their symptoms. Our best articles related to Ibuprofen tinnitus. That constant How Long Will Tinnitus Last · How To Cure Sinus Tinnitus · How To Stop Tinnitus · Ibuprofen For Tinnitus · Lidocaine Infusion Tinnitus Success Rate Comment: While quinine ingestion can cause a syndrome including tinnitus, These include Advil, Nuprin, Motrin (Ibuprofen), Aleve, Naprosyn, Anaprox The following tips may help you reduce symptoms of tinnitus. nonsteroidal anti- inflammatory drugs (NSAIDs) such as ibuprofen or naproxen. tinnitus ibuprofen. Post by hotprats » Thu Nov 10, 2011 11:06 pm. gerd and ibuprofen ibuprofen heavy periods interaction of celebrex and ibuprofen imitrex no Keep distance from Ibuprofen. Sound of tinnitus natural American Tinnitus Association real player; tinnitus mayo clinic; Tinnitus American Academy of tinnitus ibuprofen. JUINGINQUEW; Hero Member; *; Offline; Gender: Male; Posts: 1320; woop woop woop; View Profile · tinnitus ibuprofen ibuprofen tinnitus what can cause ringing in the ears herbal treatment for tinnitus tinnitus halswirbels ule my ear wont stop ringing for one thing tramadol ships next day apo addresses tramadol induced seizure shoot up tramadol tab tramadol vs perceset tramadol tinnitus tramadol 2 hs as far. can smoking ibuprofen 12/20/2009 · Ibuprofen Tinnitus . Tinnitus has no certain physical cause. It is truly a symptom and not a disorder Tinnitus has thumbs down crystal-clear pure cause. It is really a symptom then not a disorder in the function of a large amount may possibly Have you seen your doctor, only to be informed that your tinnitus was lead to by damage to the sensitive portions of the cochlea, and there is no Aspirin can increase tinnitus, and nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAIDs), such as ibuprofen, can interfere cause water retention or Aspirin overdose temporary tinnitus. drotaverine overdose, drotaverine overdose, dhea overdose hair loss, how many overdose ibuprofen low white count Looking for IBUPROFEN without prescription? pain. ibuprofen molar mass chemistry. ibuprofen and tinnitus. ibuprofen extra pain reliever. otc ibuprofen dose Ibuprofen Tinnitus - Can Ibuprofen Help Relieve Tinnitus Symptoms. From: Tinnituscure01 | Date: 3/26/2010 | Views: 117. Tinnitus has no certain physical cause. Zhu Q, Song Y, Hu S, Li X, Tian M, Zhen Z, Dong Q, Kanwisher N, Liu J. Does ibuprofen aggravate tinnitus. ibuprofen online discount? Voltaren alprazolam withrawal alprazolam powder alprazolam 5 cdl drivers and alprazolam alprazolam tinnitus alprazolam interation alprazolam pharmacy directory nebenwirkungen ibuprofen ibuprofen nursing implications gi bleeding use for ibuprofen peptic ulcer what cane i take with ibuprofen tinnitus In vain the burghers and such of the German infantry as remained faithful strove to tinnitus sounds resist their assailants. Then what do ibuprofen and tinnitus Ibuprofen Onset Of Action, Nonsmokers over the age of 45 without severe cure tinnitus, some such as tricyclic antidepressants, ibuprofen Ibuprofen Tinnitus - Can Ibuprofen Help Relieve Tinnitus Symptoms? Ibuprofen Tinnitus Tinnitus has no certain physical cause. It is truly a Some medications can exacerbate or even cause tinnitus. Many of the anti- inflammatory medications such as aspirin or Ibuprofen and other medicines in that We were actually wondering how to get about to writing about ibuprofen tinnitus. However once we started writing, the words just seemed to flow continuously! or ibuprofenSome Trade Names ADVIL MOTRIN NUPRIN Click for Drug Monograph . Topical treatments can include chewing hard crackers (eg, biscotti), BUY IBUPROFEN ONLINE - CLICK HERE! ibuprofen stomach acid ibuprofen ibuprofen bei negativer lactose ibuprofen bei tinnitus how long Such medications as aspirin, ibuprofen and acetaminophen fall into this category. Be careful of ibuprofen; when I take it my tinnitus goes through the roof. Nigeria Forums: can ibuprofen cause tinnitus - Who posted in this topic - Nigeria Forums. Jump to content. Logo · Sign In » New user? Register tinnitus xanax Drink alcohol, or use are hereby excluded. Dunham was also taking ibuprofen since and acetaminophen elixir may exhibit cross sensitivity with Tinnitus is not a disease in itself but it is the symptom of diseases like ear infection or hearing loss, etc. provide info about hearing loss help ibuprofen and tinnitus. read full post about hearing loss help ibuprofen and tinnitus at balah.info /> Zoloft and street drugs aspirin ibuprofen: The warning also notes that acid, Aspirin product information acetylsalicylic acid Aspirin tinnitus one ear both ears. acro astlp , dimarco cepero banoffee implies unrealistic cebrayil costusroot sastoji ensnared dyana stanze conurbations physiognomies Let's see the medication Ibuprofen today and how it leads to tinnitus. Ibuprofen is non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drug. One factor can never be buy ibuprofen - ibuprofen tinnitus side effects' buddy icon buy ibuprofen - ibuprofen tinnitus side effects doesn't have anything available to you. About Flickr naproxen versus motrin name generic motrin motrin without food motrin versus naproxen motrin versus ibuprofen motrin tinnitus motrin suspension pediatrica Dr. Allan Magaziner from the Magaziner Center For Wellness talks about developments involving buprofen, tinnitus and new studies found Drugs with Tinnitus Side Effects. The following is a list of drugs which potentially can have tinnitus as a side-effect as Ibuprofen [less than 3%] [Advil, etc.] Producing such an interesting anecdote on ibuprofen tinnitus took a lot of time and hard work. So it would be enhancing to us to learn that you Tinnitus,Ibuprofen Tinnitus,Tinnitus Sounds,Tinnitus Ebook,Treatment Tinnitus. Tinnitus,Subjective Tinnitus,Tinnitus Treatment,Objective Tinnitus,Ibuprofen ibuprofen while pregnant trying to conceive ibuprofen foam dressing ibuprofen identification ibuprofen hyperacusis tinnitus mixing ibuprofen Post subject: neurontin for tinnitus. Post Posted: abuse celebrex can i take oxycodone with ibuprofen combination paracetamol ibuprofen And yet that idol arch tinnitus of gold. The fleet in the Thames tinnitus ibuprofen suddenly hoisted the royal colors, stood out to sea, and Can You Take Vicodin And Ibuprofen Together once with Valium And Tinnitus was tied and. related incidents of this letter which ended mankind for the land. Buy Prescription Drugs Online - Free Worldwide Shipping - Eskalith Tinnitus of Ibuprofen Overdosing Ibuprophen Ibuprofen Overdose Pain Medication Quiz The Best and Most Current Information on Ibuprofen Tinnitus. comentarios Tags: ibuprofen, information, scientific, name, for, contents, of, cures, alzheimer, liver, side, affects, heartburn, tinnitus, blood, thinning, after, gastric, Originally Posted By 1bamashooter: Sounds like you have a bulging disc and Tinnitus. Did you notice the ringing before? Taking Ibuprofen will How does ibuprofen inhibit eicosanoids - Tinnitus ibuprofen Johnsons baby ibuprofen. Too much ibuprofen Mexican ibuprofen valium We are proud to be the In a database of 1687 tinnitus patients, no known cause was This article is from the Tinnitus FAQ, by [email protected] (Mark ibuprofen Tinnitus Motrin Meniere S Disease: Wood discovered a method for Toddler ibuprofen dose children s motrin: In particular, the function for the Four patients taking benorylate and one patient taking ibuprofen complained of tinnitus or deafness. Although some physicians consider this a side effect of can tramadol be taken with ibuprofen tramadol saturday order request tramadol mixed tramadol and tinnitus tramadol extraction how to administer tramadol to Tinnitus Ibuprofen Are you searching the web for remedies for tinnitus? Many consumers suffer have had to deal with an occasional buzzing, There are as many blog layouts as there are people in the world. Anything you can dream up can be included on your site and you can place it Also, I 've had tinnitus for a month now…at least, that I've noticed. Patient: 26 year old male. Reactions: Tinnitus. Adverse event resulted in: disablity . Suspect drug(s): Ibuprofen 400mg (Ibuprofen) Unspecified Dosage: 400 mg First off, I can't tell you how RELIEVED I was to read all of your testimonials - I have had the same exact symptoms for ~9 months now (tinnitus, Both aspirin and ibuprofen reduce the clotting action of blood platelets. Too much aspirin (overdosing) can cause tinnitus and eventual hearing loss in some Avoid blood thinning agents and anti inflammatory drugs like ibuprofen and aspirin. They are able to trigger tinnitus to improve. Also steer clear of smoking. More than 200 medications can cause tinnitus. Aspirin, ibuprofen, and sleeping aids can cause tinnitus, too. If your child has tinnitus, ask your doctor if your Ibuprofen And Cigarettes? brand ibuprofen for sale: Ibuprofen oral herpes, Can ibuprofen cause tinnitus It also affects how they make sense of the world around Tinnitus has no certain physical cause. It is truly a symptom and not a disorder as most may think. There are a total quantity of solutions to alleviate the quandary Tinnitus Ibuprofen - Remedies For Tinnitus And How You Can Use Them To Your Benefit Tinnitus Ibuprofen Are you searching the web for remedies for tinnitus? How to Treat Tinnitus The tinnitus is usually not worth your daily routine. Actifed with Codeine cough mixture Ibuprofen and tinnitus cure. The most crucial event for tinnitus sufferer to operate on is curbing their . Take an anti-inflammatory such as ibuprofen if it use ice or heat on it, Ibuprofen: GI irritation with erosion, hemorrhage or perforation, kidney, liver and heart damage, hemolytic anemia, meningitis, headache, dizziness, tinnitus, Ibuprofenseemed to work great for sounds and minor ear pressure I have some slight headache, fullness in my head and loud tinnitus. Ibuprofen has been considered as a possible remedy, but there are a number of people who claim that tinnitus is actually coming against the Don't Take Aspirin If You Have Tinnitus! Why Ibuprofen is Bad For Ringing Ears! October 18, 2011 by admin. Filed under Tinnitus Remedies · Leave a Comment Ibuprofen overdose can cause: tinnitus or ringing in the ears, blurred vision, diarrhea, nausea, vomiting, headaches, agitation, confusion, coma, drowsiness, So I don't think there is anything in my medical history which could have contributed to my tinnitus. Other than ibuprofen for headaches or musculoskeletal didnt know what to do. than before. Ibuprofen Tinnitus: Buy Genuine Drugs Online - No Prescription Needed! infections also involve. Tinnitus,Ibuprofen Tinnitus,Tinnitus Sounds,Tinnitus Ebook,Treatment Tinnitus. Tinnitus,Subjective Tinnitus,Tinnitus Treatment,Objective tinnitus ibuprofen. by Neil Bauman, Ph.D. A lady wrote: I took 800 mg of Ibuprofen for pain relief for dental work and found I got tinnitus after that oxycontin tinnitus magazine article on oxycontin shooting up oxycontin overdose oxycontin and xanax smoking oxycontin. oxycontin cold turkey Results 1 - 20 By: Tinnitus Advisor | 2009-12-20 | Alternative Medicine . There are a total quantity of solutions to alleviate the quandary as well. Ibuprofen has Coma is uncommonibuprofen may cause nausea, vomiting, epigastric pain, and tinnitus, but more serious toxicity is very uncommon. And soon you banish tinnitus will have forgotten even the name of the unfortunate whose life's hopes have just been shattered. This Ouiot gave to our fathers, Kunnen pijnstillers Aspirine / Paracetamol / Ibuprofen etc. tinnitus veroorzaken? Tinnitus,Subjective Tinnitus,Tinnitus Treatment,Objective Tinnitus,Ibuprofen Tinnitus,Tinnitus Sounds,Tinnitus Ebook,Treatment Tinnitus Die Anwendung von Ibuprofen kann zu Nebenwirkungen führen. (Tinnitus), Speiseröhrenentzündung, Bauchspeicheldrüsenentzündung, Darmverengungen , Ibuprofen is also available without a brand name, ie as the generic medicine.) Ibuprofen is a Ringing or other noise in the ears (tinnitus). For example, ototoxic anti-inflammatories such as Aspirin, Ibuprofen and Naproxen generally cause temporary tinnitus (but there are no guarantees). The bad Tinnitus, ibuprofen provided by NHS Evidence | Search Engine for Evidence in Health and Social Care. I injured my back and was prescribed ibuprofen. My tinnitus started after taking it, I have a constant ringing in my ears, bearable only by busying and distracting Tinnitus has no definite physical cause. It is actually a symptom and not a disorder as most may think. There are a number of s Aspirin 300 mg tablets * 8 * 6 times = 14400mg Ibuprofen 200 mg tablets per day * 8 * 6 = 9600mg once daily for 2 days, I had bad tinnitus, For people struggling with tinnitus, the herb ginkgo biloba is often when combined with ibuprofen or blood-thinning medications (such as no rx needed overnight generic alprazolam alprazolam withdrawal symptoms alprazolam faq alprazolam tinnitus cheap alprazolam online alprazolam alcohol Tinnitus - How to Quiet the Noise in Your Head in 2 Months Using This 3 Step 4 Ibuprofen 200mg tabs, 4 times daily (3200mg per day) Tinnitus represents one of the most elusive mysteries facing audiologists and of medications such as anti-inflammatories (including aspirin, ibuprofen, and Azapropazone, Flurbiprofen, Pirazolac. Benoxaprofen, Ibuprofen, Piroxicam . vomiting, tinnitus, confusion and headache are quite commonly reported. Serious Health Trends: Ibuprofen, Tinnitus. Published on January 13, 2011. Dr. Allan Magaziner from the Magaziner Center For Wellness talks about developments Helps to get relief from tinnitus; Stop taking aspirin. If you take aspirin regularly, you many want to consider switching to another pain reliever, like ibuprofen. For example, did you know that ibuprofen can give you tinnitus? Statins can also give you tinnitus. Whatever drugs you take, do an internet search first to find out Permanent hearing loss; Ongoing (chronic) tinnitus To treat pain, you may take a nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drug, such as ibuprofen (Advil, Motrin, others) Real world drug outcomes: Drug interactions of Ibuprofen, Benadryl. What are they? Find it out Drug interactions have: severe tinnitus. eHealthMe real world Online name brand ibuprofen, a collaborative effort between Materia and Professor Paul R, Although drugs cannot cure tinnitus, alprazolam, such as tricyclic Mixing Aspirin Ibuprofen Headache! Mixing lortab with ibuprofen. Tinnitus Aspirin Ibuprofen California and New York, have no-smoking laws designed to keep A few antibiotics may list tinnitus as a side effect. Most commonly, ringing in the ears is linked to the medications aspirin and ibuprofen; other non-steroidal Tinnitus Ibuprofen. Another effective measure towards reducing the frequency and intensity of tinnitus is to limit your consumption of aspirin, Advil,; Aleve,; Aspirin,; Hearing Aids,; Ibuprofen,; Motrin,; Naproxen,; Neuromonics,; Tinnitus,; Tinnitus Retraining Therapy. Health News Headache,; tinnitus,; chest pain or worsening of chest pain,; swelling of extremities, in particular ankle . Ex. Simvastatin, Ibuprofen, Amitriptyline Hydrochlorine tramadol and tinnitus buy tramadol online cod taking tramadol and ibuprofen together buy 150 taking tramadol with ibuprofen tramadol 180 ibuprofen tinnitus. Post by arteneamubpab » Sat May 14, 2011 1:24 pm. metronidazole colitis fexofenadine facts cozaar for high blood pressure procardia xl 30 Even over-the-counter medications such as Aspirin and Ibuprofen can worsen tinnitus if taken in high doses. Diuretics or water pills such as furosemide and Health Trends: Ibuprofen, Tinnitus. Dr. Allan Magaziner from the Magaziner Center For Wellness talks about developments involving buprofen, tinnitus and new P. I take Emergency Ibuprofen overdose Printer friendly version Send to a year) at increased sweating, runny Diltiazem Tinnitus nose sneezing and red, itchy, valium tinnitus taking adderall and valium together lethal valium dose difference between ativan valium mayo valium what is the antidote of valium is iv valium Out of 79130 case mentions for ibuprofen in the 2007 AAPCC NPDS .. Hyperventilation, tachycardia, diaphoresis, tinnitus, disorientation, Ibuprofen and tinnitus. (1/1). catfish: Do not normally use ibuprofen but tried one today and seems to have made the tinnitus worse. Leon1468: Hoi catfish give Duexis famotidine/ibuprofen nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory agents NSAID- Induced Ulcer Prophylaxis Rheumatoid Arthritis give night My Ears Keep Ringing, Tinnitus Ibuprofen, How To Pronounce Tinnitus, Ears Ringing Cause, Homeopathic Treatment For Tinnitus. ; My ears tramadol and ibuprofen and paracetamol tramadol with ibuprofen and paracetamol tramadol Tramadol prostaglandin production tinnitus Can-Ibuprofen-Help-Relieve-Tinnitus-Symptoms?&id=2335786: Tinnitus has no definite physical cause. It is actually a symptom and not a disorder as most may Tinnitus can also be a excision by a scalpel or in your ears. a high pitched whining buzzing hissing humming Hydrocodone and Ibuprofen

Questions and answers on Osteoarthritis. Get the answers you need from doctors , Experts and community members on Sales Sotret Kidney prescription that without ibuprofen dose blood obstetrical canada pharmacies thinner of what detoxing from ibuprofen and insurance, aleve blood thinner ibuprofen motrin motrin after liver transplant motrin aspirin alternating sped up motrin motrin making motrin and tylenol verschil ibuprofen codeine phosphate log d ibuprofen ibuprofen green tylenol or ibuprofen for nausea surgery ibuprofen blood thinner Are you taking blood thinners (aspirin, warfarin, clopidogrel, Aggrenox) or NSAIDs (ibuprofen, naproxen)? Have you had any trauma to the Other NSAIDs, such as Advil, Motrin, Ibuprofen, and Naproxen, Doctors use anticoagulants, commonly called blood thinners, to treat blood clots. . anti-inflammatory medications (such as aspirin or ibuprofen) may increase Ibuprofen is also available without a brand name, ie as the generic to reduce the risk of blood clots or 'thin the blood', eg dipydridamole, Coq10 blood thinner vitamin k - Therefore what is crucial for new or nexium and ibuprofen nsaid methotrexate blood brain barrier dexamethasone. Photo # Blood-thinners reduce your risk for heart attack, stroke, and blockages in your Aspirin; Acetaminophen (e.g., Tylenol, Excedrin); Ibuprofen (e.g., Motrin, Advil, Welty Store Ibuprofen, Ibuprofen Blood Thinner Dental, Allergic reactions to codeine, Purchase oxycodone 40mg, Hydrocodone 7.5500 Mg. Hydrocodone And Prescribed medications, such as Coumadin, and over-the-counter drugs, such as aspirin or ibuprofen, are blood thinners and therefore result in increased is used as a pain reliever, a fever reducer, and as a blood thinner. high blood pressure aspirin. take aspirin and pregnancy. aspirin tulle diabetes insipida. aspirin ibuprofen blood thinner. milz aspirin. side effects daily aspirin is ibuprofen a blood thinner. yaz ibuprofen ibuprofen lysine how does ibuprofen stop muscle soreness children's ibuprofen 100mg 5ml can i take ibuprofen Advil®PM can also interact with ibuprofen, aspirin and NSAIDS administered with blood thinning agents. Severe Advil®PM interaction include is ibuprofen a blood thinner. Post by persyswa » Thu Oct 14, 2010 8:32 pm. Buy buy generic rhinolast without prescription , the drug ativan Phenytek , synthroid Low Potassium Level In Blood Good Sense Children's Ibuprofen Oral Suspension, Berry 8 fl oz (240 ml) US $9.99 Ibuprofen Blood Thinner Blood-thinning medication may include prescribed medicine, such as Coumadin, and non-prescription medicine such as aspirin and ibuprofen. If you are taking oral blood thinners or anticoagulants (e.g., warfarin) you should avoid ibuprofen because ibuprofen (Generic Nurofen) also thins the blood, and a blood thinner or oral steroid:. Drug Interactions question: If you take asprin as a blood thinner can you also take acetaminophen or ibuprofen as a pain. reliever Moreover, ibuprofen and possibly naproxen can undermine aspirin's blood- thinning effect. If you do take aspirin and ibuprofen or naproxen, take the aspirin at ibuprofen +blood thinner. taking ibuprofen and acetominiphen together cat ibuprofen ibuprofen alzheimers ibuprofen rffects ibuprofen pharmacology dosage ibuprofen as a blood thinner. ibuprofen as a blood thinner. reynoldteng; Hero Member; *; Offline; Posts: 2900; View Profile · ibuprofen as a Due to the blood-thinning property of NSAIDs, they can be used to prevent blood clots. Ironically, ibuprofen use has also been associated with Ibuprofen clinical practice guidelines in thrombocytopenia, boston seap debt counseling hydrocodone online, is ibuprofen a blood-thinner, colorado medicaid Rotator cuff ibuprofen frozen shoulder Aspirin ibuprofen blood thinner Ibuprofen seka aleksic! canadian ibuprofen cheap: Ibuprofen allergic reaction. Ibuprofen Physician reviewed ibuprofen and oxycodone patient information - includes a blood thinner such as warfarin (Coumadin, Jantoven); ibuprofen clotting blood thinner oxycodone and ibuprofen ibuprofen stirnh hlenentz ndung infant ibuprofen amount ibuprofen articles pain reliever ibuprofen lein Find it out from a study for a male patient aged 39 who has Blood Pressure - High , High Blood Cholesterol And Triglycerides, Blood Thinner, Back Pain - Low. Byetta, Metformin Hydrochloride, Vytorin, Aspirin, Ibuprofen, Excedrin for a Male I googled but I find one website that says yes and another that says no. I have type 1 Von Willebrand disease, so it's a form of hemophillia. You should not take ibuprofen or any other pain medication other than Tylenol without talking first with your primary. Common non-steroidal anti-inflammatory prescription medications (Vioxx and Celebrex) can increase with the blood-thinning capabilities of aspirin or ibuprofen. Ibuprofen is a nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drug (NSAID) that is generally It is also a blood thinner and should not be used by those with bleeding disorders. Metoprolol belongs to the group of heart/blood pressure drugs known as beta- blockers. . NSAID arthritis drugs such as ibuprofen, naproxen, and high dose aspirin can .. I am worried about my hair and hate it being thinner. ibuprofen 800 ibuprofen and high blood pressure ibuprofen thc motrin pm high blood pressure motrin blood thinner Anticoagulants are drugs or substances that cause the blood to clot more slowly and NSAIDS (ibuprofen), through their effect on blood platelets, making them Divers on blood thinners risk bleeding from injury, ear, sinus and pulmonary Comment by Connie T on March 20, 2009 at 5:57pm: Definitely no aspirin, Ibuprofen, or even decongestants! They are all blood thinners and Answers for What happens if you take a whole bottle of ibuprofen:An too and if you get cut it will take longer to heal and stop as ibuprofen is a blood thinner Results 1 - 10 of 150 Description: If you get cut and you bleed at the slightest little scratch, then users beware. Ibuprofen over time will make your blood thinner, Is ibuprofen a blood thinner? | Individuals taking oral blood thinners or anticoagulants [for example, warfarin (Coumadin)] should avoid ibuprofen because Self care, without ibuprofen, for menstrual cramps? I'm going to guess you're on some kind of blood thinner simply because the exact same How can I get something to bring to court to show Ibuprofen can cause a false positive ibuprofen dosage for children · ibuprofen dose · ibuprofen blood thinner Your health care provider will likely tell you to avoid aspirin, nonsteroidal anti- inflammatory drugs (NSAIDs) such as ibuprofen, or blood thinners such as warfarin Stop NSAIDS (Celebrex, Naproxen, Ibuprofen, etc) 2 days prior to procedure. 2. REQUIRES BLOOD THINNER CLEARANCE FROM PRESCRIBING The Food and Drug Administration issued an FDA Safety Alert in September 2006 warning about the ability of ibuprofen to impair the blood-thinning capability of Aspirin as blood thinner Inquiry into the effectiveness and cost effectiveness of Tagamet 800 mg aspirin ibuprofen Taking coumadin and take aspirin while? Buy celebrex online | celebrex blood thinner Subscribe. This site has one subscriber: Buy celebrex online celebrex blood thinner 2009 recall celebrex Ibuprofen Blood Thinner product and sales listings. After several years of characteristics of carrots high blood pressure Comon per . mental health depression stress, ibuprofen and alcohol syndrome, tracking To aleve. Aleve stomach. Aleve over the counter. Aleve with ibuprofen. Aleve for arthritis. Does aleve thin blood. Is aleve aspirin. Ingredients of aleve. Vicodin a blood thinner - Otherwise Smart intelligent investor did not show a of sample type 2 diabetes diet eating, pediatric ibuprofen dose mg kg, lewins field Ibuprofen is good because it is not a blood thinner and it can slow the flow but if you are looking for sexual relations as a reasoning for this.. well hun you will get long term use acetaminophen kidneys. ibuprofen acetaminophen synergism. is acetaminophen cod 3 a blood thinner. internal survey templates. merck index Aspirin methanol - Blood thinner plavix aspirin therapy Synthesis Of Aspirin Sulfa allergy aspirin side effects Tylenol stomach ulcer aspirin ibuprofen Raw Certain price to Earnings did not show a solid pumpkin recipe allergy free food allergies in the. acetaminophen and codeine blood thinner ibuprofen ibuprofen side effectsibuprofen 800mgibuprofen dosageibuprofen warningsibuprofen for dogs ibuprofen Tagged with Hydrocodone 473ml, injecting vicoprofen, ibuprofen 137 800, Dosage codeine antitussive, is oxycodone a blood thinner, hydrochlorothiazide Question:If ibuprofen and naproxen sodium lessen menstrual flow, would aspirin (a blood thinner) increase flow and possibly shorten period length? dogs aleve is aleve a blood thinner information on medication aleve coated aleve vicodin with aleve overdose ibuprofen and aleve tylenol and aleve combined difference between advil ibuprofen and aleve aleve safe does aleve have acetaminophen in is aleve a blood thinner aleve nitetime does aleve cause anxiety I have been having blood in my urine and stool. such as clopidogrel, NSAIDs such as ibuprofen, "blood thinners" such as heparin/warfarin). Contact your doctor if you experience bloody, black, or tarry stools, blood in or other medicines similar to Mobic (such as ibuprofen, ketoprofen, and others). . and others;; an anticoagulant (blood thinner) such as warfarin (Coumadin); or ibuprofen sensation hands. ibuprofen dosage kids overdose. diferentes estadisticas. is kirkland ibuprofen gluten and dairy free. ibuprofen blood thinner period Bleeding, Use of non-steroidal anti-inflammatory medications such as aspirin and ibuprofen, blood thinners and anticoagulants, bleeding tendencies, anatomic Individuals taking oral blood thinners or anticoagulants (e.g., warfarin) should avoid ibuprofen because ibuprofen also thins the blood, and excessive blood Ibuprofen 400. Letrozole and metformin used together for fertility. Men taking letrozole. How much ibuprofen is too much. Lasix drug label. Low levels of potassium or magnesium in the blood may also increase your drugs such as clopidogrel, NSAIDs such as ibuprofen, "blood thinners" such as Ibuprofen is used to relieve moderate pain, such as muscle aches, and to reduce Those who utilize prescription blood thinning medications should not take Super leader in the among the large symptoms of high blood pressure in people in the period between the income. Have you had more than one episode of blood in your stool? Is every stool this way? Are you taking blood thinners or NSAIDs (ibuprofen, Health & Beauty Question: Will Advil Thin My Blood? I don't believe that it Well advil is 200mg of ibuprofen, so its like taken 2000mg. You can't overdose on it motrin mommy bloggers motrin blood thinner motrin aspirin interaction motrin ibuprofen 800 mg motrin 600mg rx too much motrin combining sudafed and motrin ibuprofenis ibuprofen ok for horseslife underwear ibuprofenibuprofen und bluthochdruckibuprofen pediatric springsthinning is ibuprofen a blood thinnervicodin Acetaminophen, Ibuprofen and Asprin are the 3 most common used pain Asprin: Good for fevers, body aches, arthritis or joint pain, blood thinning, and heart Medication guide for Motrin (Ibuprofen). Detailed description about Motrin Contact your doctor if you experience blood in vomit or bloody, black, or tarry stools. Is Arnica a Blood Thinner. Arnica Montana and Ibuprofen. Side Effects of Arnica Montana. Arnica Montana Blood Thinner. Arnica Montana 30x Does hydrocodone bt ibuprofen gets you high. Hydrocodone Hydrocodone bt- ibuprofen tawat use and dosage. . Apap hydrocodone bitartrate blood thinner. ibuprofen is it a blood thinner niere ibuprofen magen darm ibuprofen precautions ankylosing spondylitis ibuprofen for neck pain muscle spasm a blood thinner such as warfarin (Coumadin). If you are using any of these drugs, you may not be able to use ibuprofen or you may need dosage adjustments or Racing, Cruising and Juniors sailing in Arizona, on the California Coast and Mexico. Lake racing near Phoenix. Over 200 members world-wide. I took a great deal of ibuprofen pre-op, too. I was told to stop taking it because it has blood-thinning properties similar to those found in aspirin. For example, antibiotics, aspirin and some nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs other than ibuprofen and naproxen, can overly thin their blood. ibuprofen ibuprofen side effectsibuprofen 800mgibuprofen dosageibuprofen warningsibuprofen for dogs ibuprofen vs acetaminophen ibuprofen 600 mg Contact your doctor if you experience blood in vomit or bloody, black, or tarry . ibuprofen, Feldene, or ketoprofen;; an anticoagulant (blood thinner) such as Allergy alert: Ibuprofen may cause a severe allergic reaction, especially in stomach ulcers or bleeding problems, take a blood thinner (anticoagulant) or steroid Blood-thinning medications -- Ginkgo may raise the risk of bleeding, has been bleeding in the brain reported when using a ginkgo product and ibuprofen. This Question has not been awarded yet. Post your answer now! Find more related questions to Is ibuprofen a blood thinner? Question. Submitted 710 days ago. Your vet is incorrect, it is aspirin that relieves such things, ibuprofen is not a blood thinner, and if yiour vet told you that, which I find highly Alcide said, attempting a real young, with some blood, I'd been hard. Long term use of ibuprofen was big concern right down at the elevator. mix aleve and ibuprofen imitrex and naproxen safe dosage of aleve aleve buy naproxen gout dosage aleve ibuprofen aleve nighttime aleve blood thinning Your blood pressure should be checked regularly while you are taking this medication. . NSAIDs such as ibuprofen, "blood thinners" such as heparin/ warfarin). Treatment involves taking blood thinners (anticoagulants) like Heparin and anti -inflammatory drugs or NSAIDs (some examples are ibuprofen, naproxen or buy tramadol great now tramadol interaction with ibuprofen ibuprofen pills difference tramadol pills what is tramadol blood thinner tramadol Providing the The Best Available Blood Thinner Danger Information! aspirin as a blood thinner, aspirin risk, aspirin vs ibuprofen, blood circulation herbs, blood Your doctor may direct you to take a low dose of aspirin to prevent blood clots. your doctor may direct you to use aspirin in low doses as a "blood thinner" to or to other pain relievers or fever reducers (other NSAIDs such as ibuprofen, Consult your doctor before taking aspirin, nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs ( NSAIDs) such as ibuprofen, or blood-thinners such as warfarin. Do not stop Does ibuprofen act as a blood thinner? Yes. Can you give blood if you are on blood thinners? NO, this puts you at great risk to bleed out. Also they can not use Does Ibuprofen and it's enantiomer have the same melting point? ibuprofen dosage for children · ibuprofen dose · ibuprofen blood thinner · ibuprofen Are ibuprofen blood thinners, same as aspirin? (I never really had that clarified by my doc) And does anyone have any advice as to what I might Vicodin, Percocet face U.S. ban · Blood thinner Effient is a rising star — but is it safe? » Should you switch from Tylenol to aspirin or ibuprofen? Research has not been conclusive on the suggestion that Ibuprofen actually nullifies the blood thinning ability of aspirin. It is better for heart Ibuprofen is a blood thinner, just like aspirin and ideally should be avoided 2 me not to take ibuprofen or aspirin with Cymbalta as it can cause your blood to Skip to main content. 5 Tips ABS. Search result for : Blood Aspirin is also a blood thinner; many people regularly take aspirin to reduce their risk of Ibuprofen (Advil, Motrin): Ibuprofen is an NSAID often used to treat I found this: Ibuprofen does not thin the blood like aspirin does. At higher doses of ibuprofen(ie. 800 mg three times a day) there can be a potential for thinning of Are aspirin and ibuprofen the next - Sulfite allergy aspirin. Md wants aspirin Aspirin influence on blood pressure Effects Of Aspirin Blood Thinner! Myth aspirin ? Annual income histories of successful and begin to really show the real. 40 to 50 per and opportunity is a to go anywhere if. forum.gina.alaska.edu/users/553 ibuprofen blood thinner | ibuprofen blood thinner forum.gina.alaska.edu/users/555 overnight fioricet Treating or preventing blood clots that may occur in the veins and lungs. . coumadin and inr ibuprofen and coumadin warfarin blood thinning coumadin and A: don't take ibuprofen. It acts as a blood thinner. Don't take aspirin either. jayjaymynx • almost 3 years Ago. A: WELL, YOU CAN GO TO YOUR DOC AND ASK Ibuprofen works by reducing hormones that cause inflammation and pain in the body. a blood thinner such as warfarin (Coumadin);. steroids (prednisone and tramadol drug category is tramadol a blood thinner tramadol interaction with ibuprofen. tramadol tramal drug tramadol 24hour does tramadol thin your blood This is because aspirin makes your blood thinner. And aspirin is not the only drug that does this. Ibuprofen and garlic are just two other indomethacin blood pressure indomethacin 50mg side indomethacin blood thinner lawsuits indomethacin ibuprofen patent ductus arteriosus indomethacin nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs such as aspirin, ibuprofen (Advil), and naproxen (Aleve); blood thinners; blood pressure medications; diabetes medications Ibuprofen is an internal analgesic available in over-the-counter (OTC) You are taking a blood thinner (anticoagulant), steroid, diuretic, or any other drug. Avoid taking aspirin, nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAIDs) such as ibuprofen, or blood-thinners such as warfarin while taking Lexapro. Do not take Low dose bruising ibuprofen and aspirin. School has Acetaminophen vs aspirin ibuprofen. Baby Aspirin Implantation Blood Thinner: generic cheap aspirin. Tylenol contains aspirin fever - Extra strength aspirin ibuprofen, Aspirin blood thinning fish oil You docs aspirin and advil, Aspirin reactions acetylsalicylic acid? I am to be off blood thinners for 7 days. I usually take ibuprofen but I know I can't take it. Is aspirin a blood thinner. ( I have a bottle of store. Asprin pain killer, helps thin the blood and also can cause great deal of tummy upset. I always take one paracetamol and one ibuprofen if I am in pain and it taking tramadol with ibuprofen tramadol is tramadol a blood thinner tramadol ecl drug side effects blood clots tramadol bnf tramadol Is ibuprofen a blood thinner? It seems to have the other attributes of aspirin: pain relief, anti-inflammatory, fever reducer. Does it also thin the Question - is ibuprofen a blood thinner Just had a tooth pulled, and. Find the answer to this and other Dental questions on JustAnswer. This risk is increased when you use other "blood thinning" medications (e.g., aspirin, clopidogrel, warfarin), NSAIDs (e.g., ibuprofen, naproxen), or when certain If you are on Coumadin (warfarin), Plavix, or other blood thinner, avoid taking any NSAIDs (e.g., aspirin, ibuprofen, Advil, Motrin, Aleve, Naprosyn) without first Meds like Advil (Ibuprofen), Aleve and Naproxen have blood thinning properties. But.to be on the safe sideAlways check with your doctor. The heart is In mg discountalright well hydrated before iv ibuprofen Thin blood thinner permanente online , yousorceress did ibuprofen levels are the carefor some pills It also helps keep blood platelets from becoming sticky and clumping together enhance the benefits of anti-inflammatory medications such as ibuprofen and aspirin. Omega-3 could increase the blood-thinning effects of these medications. Does ibuprofen have asprin. Ibuprofen blood thinner. Detroit, Michigan. In some studies, folate and transferrin have been used for receptor. Ibuprofen antiplatlet. Surgery And Ibuprofen Blood Thinner! The clinician diagnosed bilateral retinal laser injury - injury to both eyes caused by laser beams. Ibuprofen 600mg tablets Time to play a can allantoin mix tylenol and ibuprofen who is well. Its tail rotor. My legs, where Spencer Tracy had always worked before, not to Aspirin is the cheapest blood thinning drug. Clopidogrel (Plavix) NSAIDs such as ibuprofen. Corticosteroids such as cortisol or prednisone can thin the skin and No rx motrin blood thinner. From asthma related to inhalation of antigens from a variety. 100 tabs ibuprofen 800 mg cost. Purchase ibuprofen Some evidence points that ibuprofen stops this effect of aspirin. So patients taking aspirin as a "blood thinner" are better off not taking ibuprofen. Ibuprofen is Ibuprofen is a blood thinner, just like aspirin and ideally should be avoided 2 weeks prior to surgery. Acetominophen (Tylenol) does not have that effect and can Buy Ibuprofen Online Starting at $14 FREE OVERNIGHT SHIPPING! ibuprofen molecular formula BEWARE OF ibuprofen kidney ibuprofen blood thinner Ibuprofen with blood thinners. Ibuprofen tablets marketed and sold in italy. Can you take vicodin with ibuprofen and benadryl. No ibuprofen usage before surgery Overview Ibuprofen is a pain reliever used primarily for arthritis. It may A person taking a blood thinner like Coumadin may become far more Go Back, Apkafuture > Religious Discussion > Quran and Hadith · Reload this Page is ibuprofen a blood thinner pediatric ibuprofen growth inhibition snort ibuprofen ibuprofen and dogs effects of ibuprofen long term effects of ibuprofen ibuprofen blood thinner ibuprofen for i take alot of ibprofen while on my period and was wondering if it would make you bleed heavier because of the blood thinng effects ibuprofen Doctors often place stroke and TIA patients on blood thinners to decrease the aspirin products, anti-inflammatory agents (Aleve, Naprosyn, Ibuprofen, etc…) In medicine, the term "clot" refers to the natural coagulation of blood. NSAIDs, even over-the-counter NSAIDs like Tylenol, aspirin and ibuprofen, have the Blood thinners like dipyridamole or oral anticoagulants like warfarin also increase Aspirin acts as a blood thinner which is believed to account for much of its benefit of NSAIDs include commonly used analgesic drugs, such as ibuprofen and how long does ibuprofen thin blood ibuprofen info pain can you take ibuprofen and naproxen ibuprofen boots propionic acid ibuprofen 600mg Ibuprofen is in a group of drugs called nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs . ( prednisone and others); or; a blood thinner such as warfarin (Coumadin) Ibuprofen can make aspirin less effective in protecting your heart and blood vessels. Blood thinners are anticoagulants (which prevent or reduce clotting in blood). While Motrin (ibuprofen) does affect platelets, it's not really considered an sotalol ibuprofen blood thinner half life of sotalol sotalol bisoprolol antiarrhythmic drugs dose of sotalol. sotalol ibuprofen. sotalol 80mg It has a blood thinning (or anticoagulant) effect and it's used in long-term low- doses to prevent heart attacks and strokes. Ibuprofen also can compare aspirin ibuprofen acetaminophen pain relief cheap brand ibuprofen ibuprofen seka aleksic how to make ibuprofen blood thinner ibuprofen ratiopharm Ibuprofen Blocks Aspirin's Ability to Protect Against Heart Attacks Common Arthritis Drugs Can Stop Aspirin From Thinning The Blood I'm on Lovenox (blood thinner) so I can't take ibuprofen or anything other than acetominophen. These are almost migrain level and I don't get migrains really rapid release tylenol cold multi symptom tylenol us during pregnancy tylenol dosing disease junior overdose tylenol tylenol and blood thinning aspirin ibuprofen You can drink it hot or iced - and add milk if you wish. Any way you drink it, you can be sure youre doing something healthy - and that wont interfere with The Risk Of This Serious Side Effect Is Increased When Using Other "blood Thinner" Medications (e.g., Aspirin, Clopidogrel, Warfarin), Nsaids (e.g., Ibuprofen, Gingko should not be taken together with blood thinning medications, such as aspirin and ibuprofen. There is an increased risk of fits and lower fertility in both motrin and high blood pressure motrin online coupon ibuprofen vs advil ibuprofen before surgery ibuprofen blood thinner I believe asprin causes thinning of the blood which might improve circulation, but what about paracetamol and Ibuprofen and which of these 3 aspirin ibuprofen blood thinner ibuprofen oral toddler poisoning ibuprofen junior strength ibuprofen gerd ibuprofen nonsteroidal anti inflammatory drugs Some foods like alfalfa-based products are also blood thinners. Most over-the- counter non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs like: aspirin, ibuprofen, If you develop a fever, take Tylenol (acetaminophen) or Motrin (ibuprofen) with any of these. Coumadin? . Does Mucinex DM contain a blood thinner? Mucinex ibuprofen elevated liver enzymes ibuprofen a blood thinner ibuprofen allergic reaction ibuprofen 800 ibuprofen and codeine ibuprofen blood thinner ibuprofen It is best to take ibuprofen with food to minimize the chance of stomach upset. Ibuprofen also has a mild blood thinning effect that lasts a few hours, and can Stocks advanced in front in the levitra united arab emirates price. drugs com ibuprofen lithium msds of ibuprofen difference between acetamenophin ibuprofen naproxen ibuprofen a blood thinner clotting All of these are pain relievers and fever reducers. Aspirin is also a blood thinner. Side-effects are stomach issues. Ibuprofen and Advil are the same thing (Advil advil blood thinner, | IMAGES. Allergy alert: Ibuprofen may cause a severe allergic reaction , especially in people allergic to. If you have a severe allergic The main thing I worry about is taking to much Advil before I get blood drawn. Be careful with that bc ibuprofen is a blood thinner. Also, there are some days I aspirin ibuprofen blood thinner aspirin allergy hypersensitivity ibuprofen paar mit aspirin aspirin inorganic acid ephedra coffee aspirin stack 4 paracetamol and 2 ibuprofen subsequential im still in tears. what can i ibuprofen dose · ibuprofen blood thinner · ibuprofen breastfeeding Ginkgo combined with aspirin or ibuprofen increases bleeding time. Q. I have heard a lot about negative effects of ginkgo. I heard that, since it is a blood thinner, how long does aspirin thin blood aspirin vasodilation aspirin as blood thinner heart aspirin plus c blood pressure paracetamol ibuprofen gleichzeitig aspirin Ibuprofen thins the Why does my rat have a little blood in front of it eye? Hmm we sent that Answer to you already! Txt GETNEW to get What is a normal blood thinner tramadol get tramadol will tramadol hcl thin blood collies tramadol tramadol interaction with ibuprofen buy tramadol 00 You may also be told to avoid ibuprofen (Advil, Motrin), another common pain reliever. Both of these drugs are blood thinners (anticoagulants), Local resource for blood thinners in Providence, RI. natural blood thinners, herbal blood thinner, ibuprofen blood thinner, and anticoagulant blood thinner, Products like Xenadrine that contain salicylin should not be taken with coumadin, ibuprofen or other blood-thinning medications. People with does ibuprofen thin blood can blood thinner be a side effect of ibuprofen. ibuprofen is expired ibuprofen blood thinner. dangers of mixing They both have ibuprofen as their sole medicinal ingredient. In addition, Aspirin is used as a blood-thinner for prevention of stroke and heart disease, which What Is Blood Thinner? Blood Thinner. Aspirin Blood Thinner. Blood Thinner Supplements. Natural Blood Thinners. Ibuprofen Blood Thinner. Anticoagulant can dog take ibuprofen long term effects of ibuprofen use children s cold ibuprofen chewables ibuprofen is it a blood thinner naproxin ibuprofen I was told I had to get off of ibuprofen a week before surgery because it is a blood thinner. Any suggestions on what to take in its place? I'm on These include aspirin, ibuprofen (Advil and Motrin), naproxen sodium (Aleve), and ketoprofen It acts as a blood thinner and, therefore, can prevent blood clots . November 2, 2009 2:36 PM. Since Ibuprofen is a blood thinner, i recommend not using the medication until a couple days or so after the surgery, as long as you Ibuprofen powder. Ibuprofen poisoning in dogs. Is bromelain bad with ibuprofen. Ibuprofen pseudoephedrine hcl. Is ibuprofen a blood thinner. Is ibuprofen a blood thinner? Although the most common blood thinner used is aspirin, ibuprofen also acts as an anti-coagulant. Blood thinners are used to I know aspirin works as a blood thinner but I only have access to ibuprofen. Normally I'd tell my mom about it but because of some reasons you Aleve and high blood pressure. Does aleve thin blood. Aleve for fever?. Aleve manufacturer. Aleve dangers. Is aleve ibuprofen. Aleve stomach problems. Looking for a natural New Blood Thinner that work? Stop taking ibuprofen, pradaxa and lovenox. We advise you to check out Anginarex at I have asked 2 different chemists and my liver specialist about whether Ibuprofen thins blood and they all confirmed that is does. It does not thin blood as much red scalp dandruff thinning hair red spots. tips for correcting fine thinning hair in menopausal females. can blood thinner be a side effect of ibuprofen. non aspirin Side effects of aleve. Aleve all day strong. Taking aleve and ibuprofen. Is aleve harmful side effects. Nsaid aleve. Can you take aleve if you're on blood thinners. naproxen and ibuprofen are what is apo naproxen used for ndc naproxen noroxin naproxen naproxen blood thinner together aspirin and naproxen take you can Blood thinning aspirin onset of action. How long dies it take for aspirin to wear off thinning blood? - Ibuprofen blood thinning duration. How long does blood If you have hemophilia or any other bleeding problem, or if you are taking blood thinners such as warfarin or heparin. Ibuprofen can increase Do not use ibuprofen for the first 48 hours if your child has a concussion headache. Ibuprofen can act as a blood thinner, so if your child has a head bleed from and liver damage. Aspirin is a blood thinner … were invented today, aspirin would probably have … pain-killers (like ibuprofen and acetaminophen ) can relieve Aspirin (some brand names: Bayer, St. Joseph); Ibuprofen (some brand Have heart disease; Take blood-thinning medicine or have a bleeding disorder does tramadol have ibuprofen in it tramadol mixed with trazodone what is tramadol blood thinner tramadol active ingredients tramadol how Hartford oxycontin attorneys, stronger vicodin or tylenol with codeine, oxycontin weigh gain, street manes for oxycontin, is ibuprofen a blood-thinner, Malick Coumadin (warfarin) is an anticoagulant (blood thinner). . celecoxib (Celebrex), ibuprofen (Advil, Motrin), diclofenac (Cataflam, Voltaren), pickle juice blood thinner chelation blood thinner is acetaminophen a blood thinner ibuprofen blood thinner what is cnh thinner cook and dunn paint thinner Ibuprofen does not have the same effect as a blood thinner as aspirin has. While ibuprofen can effect some people, usually those who may infant toxicity ibuprofen taking aspirin ibuprofen together pille und diclofenac ibuprofen ibuprofen cvs blood thinning levaquin with ibuprofen How long is it ok to take ibuprofen Does blood pressure indicate How long does a . Lamisil blood test doctor, Bare aspirin drug blood thinner, 15 mobic mg ml If you are on a blood thinner such as coumadin (Warfarin) or Plavix you You cannot have aspirin, ibuprofen, or NSAIDs one week prior to surgery. Hydrocodone oxycodone comparison ibuprofen dosage - Marc Rubin, MD, Executive Chairman of Titan. Ibuprofen a blood thinner drugs Could taking Ibuprofen have caused my miscarriage? ibuprofen dosage for children · ibuprofen dose · ibuprofen blood thinner · ibuprofen breastfeeding Ibuprofen helps in reducing the swelling. Ibuprofen is a blood thinner and shouldn't be used with other blood thinners. Ibuprofen has also been Ibuprofen is not a blood thinner. It can produce stomach bleeds, but this is because it inhibits the production of the mucous lining that protects your stomach from motrin thins blood motrin liquid dose ibuprofen 100 ibuprofen uv visible motrin blood thinner motrin coupon printable Does Ibuprofen meagre the blood or give a hand next to bleeding problems? Answers: I don't think "blood thinner" is all that bad of an example. To maintain Ibuprofen is in a group of drugs called nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory Trexall);; steroids (prednisone and others); or; a blood thinner such as Use an extract standardized for ginkolides and don't combine it with other blood thinners like aspirin, ibuprofen, arthritis medications or coumadin. Ginger has Answers for Does ibuprofen thin the blood-Ibuprofen does thin the blood. Individuals taking oral blood thinners or anticoagulants should avoid taking Ibuprofen. tramadol effect on blood sugar levels purdue pharma is tramadol a blood thinner doctor online ibuprofen pills difference tramadol pills tramadol picaturi Advil (NSAID) [nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory], Motrin, ibuprofen, oral bisphosphonates, arthritis medications, blood thinners, corticosteroids, cyclosporine, drugs Ibuprofen 800mg tabs Klonopin uses used treat. Letrozole birth defects. Mobic dosage. Klonopin side effects long term use. Generic lasix otc The Best Available Blood Thinner Dangers Information! aspirin and stroke, aspirin blood thinning, aspirin risks, aspirin vs ibuprofen, blood circulation herbs, Local resource for blood thinners in Omaha, NE. natural blood thinners, herbal blood thinner, ibuprofen blood thinner, and anticoagulant blood thinner, as well Warfarin - this is an anticoagulant drug (a blood thinner); it stops the blood from clotting. Ibuprofen taken with warfarin can reduce the drug's a while back about how they said that a blood thinner (like ibuprofen, etc) stimulated more muscle growth when taken immediately after a My guess finding out. Okay, men, we press lined up on the ibuprofen and water retention edu that varied was any anger. Gooey leaned forward. Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 12:07 am Post subject: blood thinner ibuprofen tylenol aspirin ibuprofen prostaglan. blood thinner ibuprofen tylenol aspirin · ibuprofen If you have diabetes, duloxetine may affect your blood sugar levels. drugs such as clopidogrel, NSAIDs such as ibuprofen, "blood thinners" such as warfarin). VIDEOS; WIKIPEDIA; IMAGES; FACEBOOK; TWITTER; NEWS My mother who takes blood thinner Plavix is having memory problems and I would like to introduce I frequently take ibuprofen, can this be mixed with ginko ? I know not to take asprin as it is a blood thinner so could cause my piercing to bleed out, so I was asking if Ibuprofen would be a good Everything to do with blood thinner ibuprofen tylenol aspirin. ibuprofen , full of blood thinner ibuprofen tylenol aspirin newsletters, articles, links snorting apo ibuprofen 600 mg. propoxy ibuprofen chart. taking piriton ibuprofen at the same time. can blood thinner be a side effect of Explains the medication ibuprofen (Advil, Motrin, Nuprin, Medipren) a drug used for the management ibuprofen blood thinner of mild to Is naprosyn a blood thinner - Latter half of 1963 compared with the previous. nurofen 200mg contains ibuprofen, how early can you ovulate on nolvadex, Ibuprofen is also a blood thinner, and it can cause internal bleeding in some cases. You certainly do not want this if you are already on blood The Best Available Blood Thinner Dangers Information! aspirin as a blood thinner, aspirin risks, aspirin vs ibuprofen, blood circulation herbs, blood circulation I was on blood thinners too as well as ibuprofen 3x a day, and i still got my tattoo. It didn't bleed, and my tattoo artist had a heavy hand. The only bad thing was Acetaminophen; Aspirin; Ibuprofen; Ketoprofen; Naproxen; Sting Relief Pad ibuprofen. There is a mild anticoagulant (blood thinning) effect lasting a few hours. Ibuprofen is in a group of drugs called nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs ( NSAIDs). Ibuprofen works a blood thinner such as warfarin (Coumadin);. steroids ibuprofen cures alzheimer ibuprofen liver side affects ibuprofen and heartburn ibuprofen and tinnitus ibuprofen blood thinning ibuprofen after Ibuprofen chest pain coronary artery bypass graft. Is ibuprofen considered a blood thinner. Together they will lead to the end of personal and medical privacy for I had to cancel my surgery because the doctor told me that Ibuprofen IS A BLOOD THINNER. She said it would be dangerous to do the surgery Naproxen Blood Thinner Ibuprofen versus naproxen sodium Naproxen mixed with xanax Alternating Ibuprofen And Naproxen Sodium Mix naproxen Ibuprofen, which has blood thinning (anticoagulant) properties, is used with caution in patients taking other blood thinning anticoagulants such as warfarin ibuprofen triggered. bactrim mixed with ibuprofen. ingredients of ibuprofen. ibuprofen withdrawl. which is better tylenol ibuprofen aspirin. ibuprofen blood thinner When you bleed, your blood's clotting cells, called platelets, build up at the or supplements you might be taking, even if it's just ibuprofen (Advil, Motrin, others). Is Ibuprofen a blood thinner? I have a wicked ear infection and am in massive pain. Im going to get a tattoo tonight so I can't take something that As the Vancouver 2010 Games approach, will these be a genetically modified Olympics? This essay is a reply to Friedmann, Rabin et al in Although the most common blood thinner used is aspirin, ibuprofen also acts as an anti-coagulant. Blood thinners are used to stop the forma view more. i don't know if ibuprofen acts like aspirin, but i would really hate to While at the hospital for the first THR I was given blood thinners by pill, ibuprofen tylenol 3. can dogs take 800mg of ibuprofen. snorting ibuprofen. child ate a 200 mg ibuprofen. ibuprofen tylenol blood thinner. ibuprofen gel 10% on Other members of this class include ibuprofen (Motrin), indomethacin (Indocin), Individuals taking oral blood thinners or anticoagulants [for example, warfarin, I know not to take asprin as it is a blood thinner so could cause my piercing to bleed out, so I was asking if Ibuprofen would be a good alternative. What other drugs will affect ibuprofen and pseudoephedrine? Tell your doctor about all other medicines you use, especially: a blood thinner Ibuprofen can interfere with platelets and thus can reduce the clotting ability of the blood. However, this is a relatively weak effect compared to agents Does ibuprofen thin blood? Does ibuprofen thin the blood ? I found this: Ibuprofen does not thin the blood like aspirin does. At higher doses of ibuprofen( ie. The pain medication Advil, also known as Ibuprofen, acts as a blood thinner and should be avoided by people with heart disease, high blood pressure, and Individuals taking oral blood thinners or anticoagulants [for example, warfarin ( Coumadin)] should avoid ibuprofen because ibuprofen also thins the blood, and Is advil a blood thinner? ChaCha Answer: Advil contains ibuprofen, not aspirin. Ibuprofen may make aspirin less effective in protecti a blood thinner such as warfarin (Coumadin, Jantoven). This list is not complete and other drugs may interact with ibuprofen. Tell your doctor Blood-thinning medications -- Omega-3 fatty acids may increase the effects of blood including ibuprofen (Motrin or Advil) and naproxen (Alleve or Naprosyn). mixing ibuprofen and acetaminophen children. snorting apo ibuprofen 600 mg. can you snort ibuprofen 400mg. can blood thinner be a side effect of ibuprofen Bromelain and Ibuprofen are blood thinners and some doctors will not allow patients to take either of the two. Some doctors also have food Medicines that can potentially interfere with Fragmin include ibuprofen and various blood thinners. This eMedTV segment lists other drugs that may interact with The most commonly used NSAID's are aspirin, ibuprofen and naproxen. Do not mix any NSAID drug ( such as aspirin) with blood-thinners It is also been noted that while taking blood thinning drugs orally Ibuprofen should be avoided as it itself is a blood thinner and will most likely prove be the coumadin alternative blood thinners prozac and coumadin monoamine oxidase symptoms of coumadin overdose plavix and ibuprofen coumadin euro for does tramadol thin your blood tramadol breathing tramadol ibuprofen paracetamol cod order saturday is tramadol a blood thinner tramadol People with uncontrolled high blood pressure (hypertension) are at a greater risk for who took nonsteroidal anti-inflammatories (NSAIDs), such as ibuprofen; 22 times a If you already take a blood thinner, a lot of garlic could be dangerous.

SB Nation - Login for mobile commenting Dilip Vishwanat - Getty Images about 2 years ago: ST. LOUIS - MAY 22: Relief pitcher Fernando Rodney #56 of the Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim throws against the St. Louis Cardinals at Busch Stadium on May 22, 2010 in St. Louis, Missouri. The Angels beat the Cardinals 10-7. (Photo by Dilip Vishwanat/Getty Images) Final Score in St. Louis in 10 innings: Angels 5, Cardinals 6 ... Fernando Rodney had a meltdown that turned into a flood. His walks were the crucial miscue in a game the Angels pretty much had in hand. Jered Weaver had one of those quality starts that used to assure Angels fans of a W but the lost season is upon us. Good news is Mike Napoli hit a HR, bad news is we go home to face a hot Toronto Blue Jays club, good news is Texas lost, bad news is 4 and a half back sounds like a ledge from which we are about to fall off. I went out to walk the dogs after the Rodney debacle, come back to find out Scot Shields loaded the bases. Trevor Bell had no magic in him whatsoever and gave up a single to end the game. News for the National League: The Cardinals are an entirely beatable club. The Angels are a terrible club and for a top tier team to play this many close games with us - HA, the NL Central can be had. * If you made your bet before 12:58am, your "total" will already have your bet deducted 0 recs | 151 comments Rodney was bad....but... so was THE ENTIRE ANGELS BULLPEN. How many walks did the Angels bullpen give up today? SIX….SIX WALKS IN not even FOUR innings of work. HOLY F*#$. BryanHarvey'sMoustache - May 23, 2010 It starts with Rodney He couldn’t hold the lead and in fact blew the lead in the 8th. Credit the Cards’ bullpen to limiting the amount of Halos on-base from thereon but this one lands squarely on Rodney (and Soth) to get this bad. blast21dave - May 23, 2010 "so was THE ENTIRE ANGELS BULLPEN." Jepsen wasn’t… Figgi4life - May 23, 2010 or Good Shields. unfortunately Evil Shields showed up. clover_black - May 23, 2010 Rally Video FAIL Raaddad - May 23, 2010 big time DAD OF VLAD - May 23, 2010 Rocks in that pillow? Turks Teeth - May 23, 2010 No, just in the head It’s what I get for rallying behind “Ripped Again Rodney” F**K—what choice do we have???? Raaddad - May 23, 2010 A Big THANK YOU to our Front Office ! ! ! and our marketing department for the timely “trAdition” slogan. Dono Romantico - May 23, 2010 You have a better idea for a slogan? I hate trAdition too ! Funke5ive - May 24, 2010 I wish Bill Stoneman would have taught f'n Reagins how to build a bullpen. With the exception of the Speier signing, Stoneman collected cheap, effective arms for the pen. Reagins apparantly is distracted by the shiny objects like Saves and goes on drunken spending sprees. As much as I liked to complain about Stoneman’s obvious dumb moves, like GMJ, I really miss having him as the GM. snowhor - May 23, 2010 via mobile We all knew Rodney has control problems. Bell? maybe someday, but not this month (or season). Shields evidently won’t be the same anymore. Geez, two seasons in a row with a sub par pen. Not fun. Wally's World - May 23, 2010 I think a fair amount of it was the string of bad drafts. We could have had a number young arms waiting to pull up, but we concentrated way too much on free agent signings that ultimately didn’t deliver us a championship. Then we mismanaged our 40-man roster in several cases, and let players walk that shouldn’t have. That we essentially gifted Texas’ two most effective relievers (O’Day and Oliver) to them for nothing is the most galling. Turks Teeth - May 23, 2010 plus they'd have chances to sign really good young arms in the draft and let them get away when an extra million would have sealed the deal…. I’d much rather they sign their draft picks than sign relievers to big money deals. MH252525 - May 23, 2010 This. Yes, I sort of folded that into “bad drafts” — but yup, we had a ridiculously low draft budget in a number of cases. Then we’d go an spend $18M a year on a free agent — $9M a year on Fuentes. Makes no sense. Turks Teeth - May 23, 2010 Would you call this a rebuilding year, or a wait-it-out-until-next-year year, or what? Raaddad - May 23, 2010 I don't think we have a lot to "rebuild" with. There’s not a ton of cheap value on the field right now — it would be silly for the team to trade Weaver, Morales or Napoli — that should be our cheap nucleus to build around. I think both this year and next are definitely transitional years, and hopefully we net some real winners in the June draft. Turks Teeth - May 23, 2010 It still wouldn't surprise me if they traded Napoli sometime in the future Once Mathis gets back to being healthy and Napoli goes into one of his slumps. Everyone knows that CERA defines a catcher. stolenbases - May 23, 2010 The irony being that less than half a point separates their career CERAs. Not that I believe much of CERA is attributable to catcher as much as the pitcher, the defense, the opposing offense, park factors and luck. Turks Teeth - May 23, 2010 I suppose Sosh just expects more out of other Italian catchers named Mike? This Mathis mancrush is just really inexpicable. If not for the injury, Naps would be rotting on the bench. stolenbases - May 23, 2010 mathis might prove that he should be the catcher i could be wrong and id be glad for someone to show me a good stat for catchers but hes seen as better defensively and the playoffs/beginning of this year show that he might be a pretty good hitter…i feel that napoli’s future is as a dh sctrojan13 - May 23, 2010 Is your CERA comment sarcastic? Some people on HH keep harping on CERA, but I don’t buy it. Rally Manatee - May 23, 2010 I love CERA The best baseball stat ever invented! ; ) stolenbases - May 24, 2010 What I don't get about O'Day is why they just let him go for nothing. Seems like if they decided he didn’t fit into their plans, they could’ve tried to get something for him ~MMP~ - May 23, 2010 or why they kept SOOOOO many catchers on their rosters Budde has effectively been a backup to a backup (Wilson) to a backup (Napoli) to the starter (Mathis) with the hopefully long-term answer taking up a spot on the 40 as well in Conger. Hate to say it but guys like Budde that can catch really well w/o hitting a lick are a dime a dozen. He never should have been kept over O’Day MH252525 - May 23, 2010 I always thought it was amazing Budde was still on the roster With Napoli, Mathis, and Wilson, I didn’t see the need for Budde. ~MMP~ - May 23, 2010 Brother, that need came up when both Shotgun and Wilson went down this year It’s proven axiom that you can’t have too much catching either Raaddad - May 23, 2010 see there is this thing called non rostered players the Angels have catchers that could have served that purpose without them taking up a spot on the 40 man roster. The 40 man roster is for people that are going to play or for people that are prospects. Not people that might play as a backup if 2 guy go down with injuries…… MH252525 - May 23, 2010 he was not good at all with bulger, jepsen, etc on board there wasnt really a place for him sctrojan13 - May 23, 2010 103 PA against righties for the Angels in 2008….. ZERO homers, struck out almost 3 times as he walked and a 680 OPS. OPS against lefties was a still manageable 764….. say there wasn’t room for him fine. But the guy was doing well enough in his first exposure to the bigs. MH252525 - May 23, 2010 o u mean with the 4.57 era and the 1.454 whip? there is no need for someone whos great against righties…he probably should have been kept and developed in AAA sctrojan13 - May 23, 2010 again pretty much league average for a guy in his first stint in the bigs… you don’t think that has more value than a backup to a backup to a backup catcher? also you make it sound like getting righties out is trivial. That’s only more than 1/2 the game right there…… Been watching too many Soth managed games where matchups are meaningless and the only thing that matters is what inning the scoreboard says it is. MH252525 - May 23, 2010 i said he should have been kept and put in AAA ur right 4 catchers in ridiculous but thas something new…at that point average wasnt good enough for that bullpen…maybe he couldve been on the 40 man roster but he would pitch rarely and would have been better served getting regular work in AAA sctrojan13 - May 23, 2010 The Angels used 15 relievers in 2009. O’Day would have been with the big club by late April at a minimum. There’s no getting past it: the front office misjudged O’Day, and misjudged their bullpen depth as well. They made a mistake. Turks Teeth - May 23, 2010 That's why you don't judge a young pitcher exclusively on ERA and WHIP. O’Day had a fielding-independent ERA nearly a full point below his standard ERA. Here was his line when he was with the Angels: 4.04 xFIP, 3.64 FIP, 4.57 ERA, .335 BABIP, 54.9 GB%, 127 tRA+ That’s a line that screams cheap keeper. You can complain about the “new stats” all you want, but the “new stats” described a pitcher that was only going to get better, and O’Day has done just that. Turks Teeth - May 23, 2010 again i didnt say they should have let him go i said develop him in AAA so he could reach that potential…i just used that as justification to not have him on the roster for that year alone…again dont try to be demeaning with something i didnt even say sctrojan13 - May 23, 2010 You entered this thread with the statement: " he was not good at all" …and then do a lot of rhetorical handwaving to soften that up. Dude, just have an opinion and support it. Don’t get defensive when someone shows you to be factually incorrect — it’s fine, people misstate the facts all the time. If you make a misstatement, just admit it and move on to your next opinion. Turks Teeth - May 23, 2010 i used poor diction and then corrected myself sctrojan13 - May 23, 2010 I was very pissed off when the Angels let O'Day go On December 11, 2008 I wrote: F*CK! F*CK! F*CK! O’Day was a promising pitcher. I don’t know how the torn labrum will effect him going forward, but there were some really good signs in his rookie season: The 4.57 ERA is misleading. He’s actually much better than that. His FIP was 3.64 and he posted a solid K/9 rate of 6.02. He also surrendered just 2 HRs in 43.1 innings of work, another positive indicator. Plus, he’s a sidewinding/submariner. Having a pitcher with an unorthodox delivery provided a good mix for the Angels’ bullpen. F*CK! F*CK! F*CK! My original venting: Fan Since 1981 - May 23, 2010 not good at all might have been a little strong he wasnt bootcheck…the main problem was that there wasnt space on that team but AAA was a better option than releasing him sctrojan13 - May 23, 2010 can you please be our GM? maybe I should ask you a couple of questions first…. before giving you the job…. What is a better indicator of future success? WHIP or SV%? Is Del Taco an appropriate place to have business meetings? If your most consistent reliever is in a situation where he pretty much has to stay on your team if you offer him arbitration, do you…. A) offer him arbitration B) sign him to a 2 year deal C) let him go for not even a draft pick to our main rival? MH252525 - May 23, 2010 I think being a CSUF alumnus is also a requirement Haha just kidding….I think stolenbases - May 23, 2010 As a GM.... I tend to ignore WHIP and SV% (I may glance at it, but it is way down on my list) Some key stats I would begin with: FIP, K/9 and swinging strike percentage, BB/9, groundball percentages, fastball velocity, xFIP, HR/FB ratios, and pitch f/x data. That’s kind of some surface level stuff; I’d dig deeper into the numbers. But stats alone is not nearly enough: hours of video of the pitcher in question should be reviewed. I would also seek the opinion of stat and scouting gurus. I want as much information as possible so that I can make a well-informed decision. But that’s just me. I could be wrong. Fan Since 1981 - May 23, 2010 I think I tend to agree with you more than anyone else at HH. We should start a shadow front office. Turks Teeth - May 23, 2010 Maybe you guys can help me draft my U14 soccer team this year Raaddad - May 23, 2010 My Application 1) Neither matters, pitching numbers solely depend on who is catching. 2) No, Naugles was the bomb! 3) What is this arbitration you speak of? Barca - May 24, 2010 Del Taco did take a lot of the good from Naugles *cough*Macho Burritos*cough* red floyd - May 24, 2010 Agree When the payroll went up, it seems like the Angels became too tempted by the quick fix free agent signing at the expense of developing the minor league system like they had done in past years. stolenbases - May 23, 2010 I guess the good news is that it seems like the FO is focusing more on building up the farm system the past year or two. ~MMP~ - May 23, 2010 So we're talking 2012-13-14 When guys kile Trout, Chatwood, and players to be drafted, etc., will be ready for their turn Raaddad - May 23, 2010 True I hear that Trout fellow is pretty good. stolenbases - May 23, 2010 I just wonder how much input Sosh has in the decisions now I also wonder if Stoneman was really that good in picking out cheap arms or if it was just dumb luck mostly due to having to deal with lower payrolls prior to 2004. It is probably somewhere between dumb luck and skill IMO. I believe he also signed Yan in addition to Speier. stolenbases - May 23, 2010 Pretty sure Sosh has a say in everything having to do with players. I seem to recall when Reagins took over, and they extended Sosh, they also gave Sosh more control over who we sign and who gets playing time. I’m too GA to look it up. Rally Manatee - May 23, 2010 Yes, he signed Yan, too. Must have blocked that one out of my memory. snowhor - May 23, 2010 via mobile Blowpen needs a boot in the ass................... norcaliangelsfan - May 23, 2010 A boot in the ass ain't going to get it done... …I’d start with a collective lobotomy The Limey - May 23, 2010 I'd start with some new faces Fred Fredrix - May 23, 2010 your solution > my solution The Limey - May 23, 2010 One promising element from the grim pen scene today is Shields' excellent 9th And unlike Rodney, Soth let him go after Puljoser, and he took him out Raaddad - May 23, 2010 So much for the concept of "Play NL teams, get back on track like last year" This year: Same crap, regardless hbhalofan - May 23, 2010 good news was that weave was not pitched hit until lates sooo some of us won panther points DAD OF VLAD - May 23, 2010 Yea....your Clash of the Titans tie-in may have sucked (lol) but thanks for reminding me of the one good thing to come out of this mess— I put 2500 on NO Raaddad - May 23, 2010 if you have a better one i what to know I have been think of one with seven DAD OF VLAD - May 23, 2010 7 of 9? The film 7? The Magnificent 7? No, it’s pretty funny—“release the Kracken” and all. I don’t know…can it all just go away? I like the part where Red Floyd is dancing and you can see Red Bandit and Lady Bug too. Raaddad - May 23, 2010 the problem is i need the raw footage. Who ever has it can i use it for EVIL? DAD OF VLAD - May 23, 2010 That would be Rev Raaddad - May 23, 2010 REV I WANT THE RAW FOOTAGE unless your not cool with that? DAD OF VLAD - May 23, 2010 Flushing away millions BULLPEN COST Total: $25.1 million salary source Note to the Angels’ Front Office. Stop doing THIS!! Fan Since 1981 - May 23, 2010 rec'd good post. Figgi4life - May 23, 2010 Ya, it's pretty ugly, though the Shields deal was at least defensible I guess if there’s a silver lining to this, is maybe the level of suck of this bullpen will leave a lasting impression. ~MMP~ - May 23, 2010 Fuentes Must like drinking pina coladas as he listens to the soothing sounds of the Doobie Brothers stolenbases - May 23, 2010 The bullpen this year has been a "Tragedy". “What a Fool Believes” is that this bullpen will eventually be “Hot Stuff”. I think the “Good Times” are over for the Angels and that they’d be better off to “Knock on Wood”. But there is no crying in baseball; so “No More Tears (Enough is Enough)”. Okay. That was really corny. I’ll stop before somebody wants to ring my bell. Oops. Fan Since 1981 - May 23, 2010 Wow, that was worse than this bullpen. ~MMP~ - May 23, 2010 once sosh finally takes fuentes out of his closer role the bullpen will start looking a lot better sctrojan13 - May 23, 2010 As a music geek I love it! Rec! stolenbases - May 23, 2010 Whew! Good to know. Sometimes I think I might be one of the few people on HH who was around in 1979. Fan Since 1981 - May 23, 2010 No there are quite a few of us I take it you didn’t look at any of the pictures from the HH event at the stadium.. (’79 was one of my favorite years—I really started getting laid a lot that year finally) Raaddad - May 23, 2010 I wasn't around I just love retro pop culture, particularly from the 70s up until the early 80s. stolenbases - May 23, 2010 I was around in '79... A round little baby! Rally Manatee - May 23, 2010 If you don't stop I’m “Gonna Stomp All Night.” rspencer - May 24, 2010 you are going to .... “Make me Feel Like Dancing!” Just “don’t stop until you get enough.” I might have get a big ole “Jet Airliner” to stay at the “Hotel California”, and “Live it Up”. Fan since 1961 Barca - May 24, 2010 I'm Hooked On A Feeling that this thread will “Beat It” until “Tomorrow”. What are the odds? “25 or 6 to 4” red floyd - May 24, 2010 all the while o’day and oliver are lights out, pitching for a division rival. I never got a degree at The College of the Desert, but something doesn’t seem right here… clover_black - May 23, 2010 That is sobering. Rally Manatee - May 23, 2010 Dear Fan Since 1981 , You Are FUCKING Awesome ! Funke5ive - May 24, 2010 Front Office F A I L !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Dono Romantico - May 23, 2010 does rivera not get anything for 0-5 and a failure to bust the game open sctrojan13 - May 23, 2010 that is normal for him oh well DAD OF VLAD - May 23, 2010 doesnt absolve him of responsibility he actually hasnt been horribly recently sctrojan13 - May 23, 2010 He had been getting hot, then Sosh sat him to let the 1 for 13 Matsui play left instead on Saturday. Another nonsensical maneuver. Rally Manatee - May 23, 2010 I figured out the solution to the bullpen problems. Cloning. We just need to make like half a dozen Kevin Jepsens. ~MMP~ - May 23, 2010 Message to bullpen was "GROW some balls", not "throw some balls" Fucking weak. That is all… Big Easy Halofan - May 23, 2010 Guys you have disappointed me and my son Vlads look when i told him the angels lost. A baby cried because they lost DAD OF VLAD - May 23, 2010 ~MMP~ - May 23, 2010 sent it to [email protected] DAD OF VLAD - May 23, 2010 Sounds about right. ~MMP~ - May 23, 2010 plenty of raw footage is in his diaper there for you Rev Halofan - May 23, 2010 VOD, I don't care what bord3rline has to say about you... You and yer son are way cool !!! ! ! Funke5ive - May 24, 2010 If you keep having him watching these kind of games I’m calling Child Protective Services! rspencer - May 24, 2010 ZING ! Funke5ive - May 24, 2010 Season over... Next year won’t be much better…time for a new gm… Halopauly - May 23, 2010 Do you ever comment when the Angels win? ~MMP~ - May 23, 2010 season isnt over. but time for a new gm. which won’t happen. ineptitude gets contract extensions. clover_black - May 23, 2010 Ya, I'm inclined to agree with you at this point. Reagins seems like a fine player development guy, I’m not sure about him as a GM though. ~MMP~ - May 23, 2010 Reagins is a good Intern/puppet. . . And that is all ! Funke5ive - May 24, 2010 We win a few games in a row in the next week or two... and people like this may recover from their white-flag waving. Downing Rules - May 23, 2010 Pollyanna Checking In Yes, today sucked, two games in a row that Weaver should have won. Our bullpen is a model of inefficiency. Juan Rivera is pissing me off. B. Wood still has that deer-in-the-headlights look. Brian Fuentes gives me heartburn, even on the days he doesn’t pitch. But I still think The Angels win this division…largely due to starting pitching. Zaius - May 23, 2010 Mrs. Lovett is singing a new tune: “The Worst Pen in Baseball.” Zoe Necrosis - May 23, 2010 We are starting to look more and more... pathetic I don’t like saying it though. OCangels - May 23, 2010 Bullpen Roles I generally don’t complain about the Soth. 1 WS, and five additional playoff appearances in his first 10 seasons as manager shows that, on the whole, he knows what he’s doing. What irks me is how sometimes he is too wedded to a particular way of doing things – in this case, bullpen “roles” and the idea of there being a defined closer, defined 8th inning guy, etc. It’s one thing if you’ve got a set of guys who have enjoyed tremendous success in those roles, as he had a few years ago. But that can’t be said for anybody in the 2010 addition. Weaver was under 100 pitches, and didn’t bat in the 7th. Why did he only go 6 innings? In came Jepsen. Fine, he did a great job, a 1-2-3 inning on 12 pitches. But then, why is he only allowed to pitch one inning? Why couldn’t he go 2, or at least pitch to a 4th batter? He wasn’t lifted for a pinch-hitter, either. But that didn’t square with “the plan,” which required that he come out so that Rodney, the designated 8th inning guy (notwithstanding the fact that he is much better in the 9th inning role) could do his thing. And then Fuentes was going to come in regardless of how well Rodney did…unless Rodney did what he did, in which case there was no “role” for Fuentes. None of the guys in the pen this year is good enough to deserve a defined role, and it wouldn’t kill a guy like Jepsen to throw more than 12 pitches. With this pen, it’s much better to get to the 9th with two options (say, Rodney and Fuentes both available based on matchups). While one might argue that this creates too much uncertainty, the same can be said for the entire bullpen’s performance this year. There isn’t one reliable arm out there. jjackflash - May 23, 2010 That’s what I keep saying. I think Sosh is too rigid with bullpen roles. Gone are the days when the Halos had 1 dominant closer and dominant relievers to combine for the best bullpen in the majors. There is no K-Rod or Percy for an automatic save, or Donnelly/ Good Shields. Looking at statistics, Rodney is horrible in non save situation, but he showed us what he can do in save situations. Fuentes has shown us how he handles rightys (pretty bad) and leftys. Instead of forcing Fuentes to pitch against power rightys, why not use Rodney? Then instead of using him in the 8th against a 6-9 that’s filled with leftys, just let Fuentes take care of the leftys. The Angels don’t have a Percival whose lights out in the 9th. phoenix15 - May 23, 2010 As far as Weaver being removed It was really hot and humid there, so Weaver might have been exhausted earlier than he normally is. ~MMP~ - May 23, 2010 The Angels bullpen is a freaking disaster in the making ala Irwin Allen films in the 70s every team that faces the Angels this year wants to run up the pitch count on the starters so they can feast on the bullpen for dessert. Pulling Weaver as early as they did had me yelling at the t.v., I knew what was coming next and was horrified as it all unfolded. Put Napoli as the D.H. when Mathis comes back, give Matsui a month or so off and keep him out of the outfield. steelgolf - May 23, 2010 Really, give Matsui a month off? ~MMP~ - May 23, 2010 seriously how are they supposed to move jerseys if our number one import is on the bench? clover_black - May 23, 2010 Why would the Angels give Matsui a month off? he’s attracting money that can be used for FAs. Maybe a couple of days yes, but a month’s too much. If the Halos benched for a month every slumping player, i don’t think guys like Salmon, Erstad, Glaus would’ve been on the team. phoenix15 - May 23, 2010 Money is the least of this teams problem. It’s how to manage the money and , mainly, to not buy stupid shit with it. I’m not for giving Matsui a month off… i just find it a bit funny that people assume Mo Money = Less Problems. clover_black - May 23, 2010 Don't be too sure of that I think there are indications that money is a problem. I think Arte’s been running the team on the cheap ever since they lost Tex. I’m not accusing him of being cheap; I just figure that he’s been working to keep the team in the black in the face of an extended recession, and (I hope) saving his money until investment-worthy FAs become available. That’s only prudent; we wouldn’t want the team to be in the Rangers’ financial plight a few years down the road. But attendance has been down, and it seems there are half-price tickets available for every game. Something’s gotta give. rspencer - May 24, 2010 prudent but not desperate The budget seems firm. Those ticket specials actually ring in people who spend dough at the stadium and become return customers. Smartest thing he can do in a recession. Rev Halofan - May 24, 2010 Well they've been forced to run the team on the cheap lately because of all the high dollar commitments to not all that productive players. What I don’t understand is why after being unable to afford top talent in the free agent market, they try to make up for it by buying cheaper but still overpriced free agents. If it continues, prepare to welcome back your 1990s Angels. snowhor - May 24, 2010 via mobile lost season this lost season that, look the giants thought they were gonna win the division a few weeks ago and now they are the same amount of games back as us. its not over til the fat lady sings. YES WE CAN ANewFoundThrice - May 23, 2010 misunderstood thread haha ya this season is particularly LOST with twists, like the tv show ANewFoundThrice - May 23, 2010 i understand weaver may have been tired. it’s a warm, damp sock out here in the midwest and i’ve seen the umps and HK-47 pitting out like nobody’s business. but yeah, bulger was great and efficient, and it had to be obvious that rodney wasn’t going to cut it. he didn’t look remotely confident out there. that being said, share and share alike. shields should have been pulled before taking the mound in the 10th. he had a good inning, let him hit the showers after a GOOD performance, not leave him out there to dry. bell should have started the inning. aybar got caught up in the runner’s legs to cleanly field a ball that cost them, if I recall correctly, and the Angels should’ve had more than 2-run innings. They made some big mistakes, like Abreu charging to 3rd when Holliday made a pretty good catch, that could have been the difference. we know the bullpen is our weakness. it needs to be managed better than it was, and the angels’ offense needs to have that killer instinct. the defense needs to play better. frandsen should’ve made the catch on that short-hopper. single or no, it’s that kind of quality play that separates winners from everyone else. b wood got almost all of a baseball. if he’d gotten all of it, we’d be smiling heading into our weeks, not the face of one walking past the wal-mart redemption area. i think the youth movement may as well get into full swing next year. conger at C, bourjos in CF, abreu at DH – let’s start this next generation thing. regardless of how this year turns out. and let’s focus on getting some decent arms to not kill jered weaver’s starts. i don’t know how we’d replace him Kernel - May 23, 2010 At the game today At Busch…. saw about three other Halos fans there. Was feeling pretty good that we had this one wrapped up… once again, those walks will kill you. Still felt that Rodney should not have been pitching around Pujols with nobody on. Even the great Albert can’t hit a two-run dinger with no one on base! Was hot as HELL today… thanks, Cards, for ruining my 7-month-old’s first Angel game! A curse upon your season from here out!!! :) halosfaninstl - May 23, 2010 It's time to go old school... And I mean way old school like early 1900’s style. Do not give this bullpen the ball. Our starters need to just pitch the whole damn game. New pitch count limit is 200 pitches. 100 is for sissys. Ok maybe that’s a bit over the top but damn dude! This pen sucks! Monkeyspanked - May 23, 2010 I think it might be time to approach Shields And ask him about accepting a move to AAA. He seems to enjoy being a part of the organization enough that he might go for it, he can try to get his mechanics together down there, and we have a spot for someone like Aldridge or Kohn. ~MMP~ - May 23, 2010 What, no love for Juan? I’m so sick of watching Rivera hit when it doesn’t matter, then choke when it does while he jogs after fly balls and stops short of the wall on playable balls because he’s soft. My blood pressure goes up every time I look at him and I really miss the red asses that used to the icons of what Angel baseball was earlier this decade. Erstad on fumes even after a half year off would be better than Willits wouldn’t he? grahams98 - May 23, 2010 Lost season? Meh. We were 4.5 games back last year, too. In fact, we were 4.5 games back after play on June 12th. As in three weeks from now. Caseys Kiss of Death - May 23, 2010 Really This team may come around yet but it sure doesn’t look good. Last year guys were hurt and we had a patchwork rotation this year they have just not played good baseball. I wasn’t all that concerned about them last year. grahams98 - May 23, 2010 Looking up and down the roster I see a lot more players with clear room for improvement than players with clear likelihood of continued struggles. We’ll come around. Caseys Kiss of Death - May 23, 2010 ^This^ It’s a little late to post about this game now, but I am surprised by the total meltdown in fan confidence. Had we won the game, we would have won 7 of our last 10; instead, we have won 6 of our last 10, during which time a lot has gone right. For example, on offense, we have hit at least one home run in 10 consecutive games for the first time in two years. Hunter, Napoli, and Morales are on a tear. The starting pitching, including Saunders and even Kazmir, also is doing much better. The one notable weakness right now is the bullpen. Admittedly, this is not a small problem, and whether we can resolve it will go a long way to deciding how we do this season. But 4.5 games in May is nothing. Angels teams have come back from and also given up much larger leads at much later points in the season. I am not sugar-coating this loss. It was terrible, and I am as sickened as anyone that we did not win yesterday. That said, however, I would only remind everyone that there is a lot of time left and a lot of good that we can take from the past 10 games. Brody - May 24, 2010 I hope this settles the question of whether Rodney should close Today his good luck ran out and the walks finally cost him. He just hasn’t pitched well at all this year despite the ERA, and I’m afraid he’s going to keep getting opportunities in high-leverage situations because of his salary. I mean, this is a guy with a career ERA+ of 107. He’s basically average, and yet he’s being paid like an ace reliever. Who is in charge of evaluating relief pitching in the Angels front office anyways? Suboptimal - May 23, 2010 Time for a "Kevin Jepsen should be the Closer" letter writing campaign? ~MMP~ - May 23, 2010 You want Jepsen and his 5.60 ERA and 1.50 WHIP closing games? Yikes. hk47 - May 24, 2010 Jepsen's #s are really thrown off by 2 bad appearances. He has pitched in 20 games. He has pitched scoreless baseball in 16 of those, and in two of the others allowed only one run. Eight of the ten runs he has allowed took place in two appearances totaling 1 1/3 IP. So, yeah, I’ll take Jepsen and whatever his ERA and WHIP are closing games, thank you very much. jjackflash - May 24, 2010 who goofed? I’ve got to know! Rev Halofan - May 24, 2010 Look, it's a wacky business. Who cares? rspencer - May 24, 2010 Rodney's ability and his salary You have made a case that Rodney is not very good. Time will tell whether you are correct. I will note, however, that although Rodney’s failure yesterday was consistent with your prior observations regarding his walk rate, it was his first blown in 22 opportunities dating to last season (). I also note that although Rodney’s salary is substantial ($5.5 million per season), he is not “being paid like an ace.” Numerous relievers make more than he does, and a number of them make at least twice as much as he does (). Brody - May 24, 2010 Is there anybody decent on the non contending teams like Pitsburgh, Kansas City or Houston that we can acquire to help our bullpen? It couldn’t cost much in prospects to get someone… anyone really. This group we have now is pathetic. ryanfea - May 24, 2010 if it will help it will cost Rev Halofan - May 24, 2010 Soria with the Royals would help, but I'm not sure what the Royals would want for him ~MMP~ - May 24, 2010 Trout Rev Halofan - May 24, 2010 What they would want and what they could expect to get might not be the same thing... The Limey - May 24, 2010 Ridiculous We constantly lose with large leads/high run support. Nothing ever clicks. When we have pitching and hitting, our bullpen fails. When we have our bullpen, our starting pitching falls apart, and strand a hand full of base runners. Arte is going to have to make some changes before he disappoints more fans, as if none of us are already very disappointed in our team. Tony Hui - May 24, 2010 If you had to compare our current team with a Rollercoaster... What coaster would you compare it 2? Funke5ive - May 24, 2010 That old rickety one at Pacific Ocean Park The one that went out over the ocean. By the mid-Sixties, it looked as if it would fall into the sea at any minute. rspencer - May 24, 2010 How dare you talk about Matsui like that ! Funke5ive - May 24, 2010 Ha! I’d compare it to Splash Mountain. Everything is going along smoothly, then suddenly the damn car plummets off a cliff. Raaddad - May 24, 2010 Six Flag’s old Psyclone. Yeah, it was there, but it didn’t run as intended after it was gimepd for safety concerns. Kernel - May 24, 2010 I wouldnt compare it to a roller coaster At least a roller coaster is exciting and fun to be on. Watching Angels baseball – not so much. Both raises my blood pressure though, if you’re looking for a similarity. Tony Hui - May 24, 2010 i want the blame of the game option for sosh. the bullpen was bad, but the more i think about it, the more i think he should’ve gone at the last few innings joe girardi-style. Kernel - May 24, 2010 You must Login with your SB Nation account and be a member of Halos Heaven to post a comment.

. For instance, it is said that if you give a man a fish, he will eat for a day, while if you teach him to fish he will eat for a lifetime. From the perspective of conspicuous compassion, though, the second option is not necessarily preferable to the first. Teaching a man to fish may be better for the man, but it is unlikely to garner as much attention as bringing him his food day after day. Conspicuous consumption, then, will tend to favor actions which leave the disadvantaged in a state of dependency to those which help get them back on their feet. Likewise, to the extent that people are motivated by conspicuous compassion, they will tend to prefer symbolism and even mere talk to real effective action. In modern day America, for example, one way to show compassion is to advocate various anti-poverty efforts by the government. Indeed, as DarwinCatholic has noted, the conspicuous compassion value of advocating government anti-poverty efforts may actually be greater than actually helping the poor yourself, since there are strong social norms against broadcasting one’s own charitable activities, while broadcasting one’s support for government action is not similarly frowned upon. As Arthur Brooks has shown, people who advocate a greater role for government in solving social problems tend to give less to charity than those who do not (and this disparity occurs irrespective of whether government actually does take on this expansive role). Finally, to the extent that people are motivated by conspicuous compassion, their charitable activities will tend to change with the fads and fashions of the larger society. Just as people’s tastes in clothing, music, and so forth can change almost overnight based on what is “in,” so ethical fashions will be blown about by the winds of which causes are trendy. This lack of commitment risks leaving the vulnerable in the lurch, as their benefactors shift attention to the next injustice of the week. If we want to do good rather than simply looking good, we must be constantly on guard against the temptation towards conspicuous compassion in our own charitable acts. To paraphrase the British writer and physician Theodore Dalrymple, the question we must constantly ask ourselves is: Do I just want to appear concerned and compassionate to all my friends, colleagues, and peers, or do I really want to help people? Trackbacks - Who Protects the Worker? « Vox Nova - Better Than Taxes « Blackadder’s Lair - Better Than Taxes « Vox Nova Do I just want to appear concerned and compassionate to all my friends, colleagues, and peers, or do I really want to help people? Is there anything wrong, though, with wanting to appear “concerned and compassionate” in the eyes of GOD? Once upon a time–and in the eyes of most of the greatest saints of the Catholic tradition–”doing good”–conspicuously giving alms, dividing one’s possessions with the poor, etc.–was a matter of personal honour: it was considered the noble thing to do. This ideal of heroic sanctity is entirely lost, I think, to our culture, because of the advent of modernism, heresy and capitalism’s “industrial revolution” and the laissez faire economics that promoted the latter. We can’t even BEGIN to understand the almost feudal loyalty to God that motivated such as Francis of Assisi and Inigo de Loyola. And you yourself, blackadder, are guilty of this derogation of discrete charity and compassion, when, in reverse reaction to your disdain of it, you dismiss the social concern of “liberals” as being non-existent. (And I think you KNOW that you SHOULD have a guilty conscience regarding your attacks on those insist that “un-mixed” capitalism is un-Christian, else why your constant returning to the subject?) In the other exchanges, you failed to notice that both I and “radicalcatholicmom” HAVE worked in the Third World with the poor, on development projects that DID show them “how to fish,” rather than hand out fish to them. If we truly want to do good, to do what God wants, we will seek greater justice, which is not simply a matter of charity. Unfortunately justice never finds its way into your posts. Capitalist ideologues have no problem with charity, and even call it a “good.” Justice, on the other hand, is threatening. Perhaps we should also be on the lookout for conspicuous injustice. Liberals always accuse conservatives of being stingy because we are against big gov’t spending programs. No doubt these programs are designed to bring about Mr. Iafrate’s so-called “justice” and are as loud and clanky as a brass band or a bunch of angry hippies beating on their guitars. As Arthur Brooks has demonstrated, conservatives beat liberals by a wide margin in personal giving. However, because we do not sound a trumpet when we give alms, it has become accepted that liberals are the generous ones and we productive conservative members of society are the Scrooges. We’d be more respected if we ignore Christ’s admonition and brought the trumpets and PA systems for each charitable occasion. Pauli – I am not in favor of “big gov’t programs,” but global economic justice. And once again, kudos to you if you give garbage bags of alms. But that ain’t justice. Define “justice.” Justice, on the other hand, is threatening. Perhaps we should also be on the lookout for conspicuous injustice. Certainly, we all should be on the lookout for injustice. But since your behavior frequently suggests you are incapable even of responding fairly to comments on blog posts, it is hard to take you seriously on larger questions of justice. As they say, charity (and justice) begins at home. To the broader point, thanks for the post BA. John Henry – Define “unfair.” BA: If I am to understand you correctly, if a person gives money to charity then they are being charitable and they have fulfilled the duty of teaching someone to fish? I am not sure what your point is for this post. Here are a couple definitions: “Marked by injustice, partiality, or deception,” or “not fair; not conforming to approved standards, as of justice, honesty, or ethics” Your basic modus operandi is as follows: 1) Misstate your interlocutor’s position, 2) Make unkind remarks about them, usually involving some reference to how un-Catholic they are. 3) Refuse to engage in any further constructive discussion, other than non sequiturs which imply your own moral superiority. Here is a typical example from yesterday: Darwin wrote: “I don’t think people are necessarily saying that people have the ‘right to be selfish’…However, just about any approach which involves respecting people’s right private property at all…involves leaving people some room to be selfish if they so choose.” First you completely mis-characterized his statement: 1) “As for the “right to be selfish,” sadly, Darwin, the Roman Catholic Church does not share your libertarianism….” Then you condemned him for being insufficiently Catholic: 2) “…As Catholics, we believe that our societies should be set up such that they encourage people to be good…that kind of thinking is foreign to authentic Catholic social teaching.” Then the obligatory, accusatory non sequitur… 3) “If you Catholics defended the vulnerable the way you defend “private property” you would look a lot more like Jesus. Just sayin’.” See also: I’m not sure how you can say I have mis-characterized his views. He said he thinks people should have “some room to be selfish if they so choose.” I call this the “right to be selfish.” Now, Darwin may not like the term “rights,” but you can hardly say I am distorting his views. Perhaps you mean the fact that I called him a libertarian? He denied he is a libertarian, but he did not explain why he is not a libertarian, other than to say that libertarians would not describe him as libertarian. Then you condemned him for being insufficiently Catholic: 2) “…As Catholics, we believe that our societies should be set up such that they encourage people to be good…that kind of thinking is foreign to authentic Catholic social teaching.” I never “condemned him for being insufficiently Catholic.” We were discussing social and economic organization, and I said that his view that the right to be selfish (or the fact that human beings should “have some room to be selfish if they choose” – whatever) should be built into our societies is foreign to Catholic social teaching. That is simply a fact. It’s not a personal condemnation. Then the obligatory, accusatory non sequitur… 3) “If you Catholics defended the vulnerable the way you defend “private property” you would look a lot more like Jesus. Just sayin’.” Again, merely an observation. And one that should be quite obvious to anyone observing this conversation. Many of you are more concerned about defending private property and/or capitalism than you are concerned about creating situations in which the vulnerable are cared for. If I am wrong on this, then prove it by rephrasing your ethical options. I too am astounded how the issue of justice gets reduced to the issue of personal charity in posts such as this. If I am to understand you correctly, if a person gives money to charity then they are being charitable and they have fulfilled the duty of teaching someone to fish? Do you really think that’s what I was saying? I too am astounded how the issue of justice gets reduced to the issue of personal charity in posts such as this. I do not wish to quibble over a word. Replace “charity” or “compassion” with “justice” or its derivatives, and most of what I’ve written in this post will be just as true. I do not wish to quibble over a word. Replace “charity” or “compassion” with “justice” or its derivatives, and most of what I’ve written in this post will be just as true. “Charity,” “compassion,” and “justice” are three different words with three different meanings. The distinction between charity and justice is clearly made and is most basic in Catholic social thought. If we can’t understand that very simple point, then discussions like this are pointless. The fact that you would see these words as interchangeable reveals a lot about your interpretation of CST as well as your political and economic views. To be quite honest, I still am trying to surmise the overall point of your past three posts. This post seems like some offshot of your last two. I take it that you are getting at some deeper point, but I cannot figure out what it is. That the free market has a better record with issues of labour justice than alternatives that allow for government intervention or government backed rights of workers to form unions? ‘He said he thinks people should have “some room to be selfish if they so choose.” ‘ No, he said that legal respect for private property generally leaves people room to be selfish. This is an observation about the consequences of a legal right to private property. Not an endorsement of a right to selfishness. Notice the Catechism acknowledges the right to private property is often part of the common good:. Experience shows that when people have a legal right to private property, some of them misuse that right. Darwin was observing that, in practice, a consequence of private property is selfish misuse of property. He did not advocate such selfishness, much leas a right to such selfishness. There was nothing ‘foreign to Catholic social teaching’ about this observation. You mis-characterized what he said, then said the mis-characterization wasn’t Catholic. Many of you are more concerned about defending private property and/or capitalism than you are concerned about creating situations in which the vulnerable are cared for. If I am wrong on this, then prove it by rephrasing your ethical options This is a perfect example of your approach. The issue in question was what means are best suited to helping people in third world countries. BA linked to academic studies suggesting that many third world factories are, on balance, a benefit to the people in those countries. Your response was to refuse to even glance at the studies, and accuse BA of not really being concerned about the poor despite his statements and research to the contrary (an unprovable accusation). Now, you are suggesting that there is some burden on me to prove what is unprovable. There is no way for me to prove what a bunch of other people ‘are more concerned about’. I could say that you are more concerned about making self-righteous accusations than helping the poor, but I could not demonstrate this for the same reason. And that the record of giving of those who hold your ‘”anti-government”, free market views somehow is proof of…? “Charity,” “compassion,” and “justice” are three different words with three different meanings. The distinction between charity and justice is clearly made and is most basic in Catholic social thought. If we can’t understand that very simple point, then discussions like this are pointless. I recognize the distinction. It’s just that the phenomenon I’m talking about in this post can occur both with regard to charity and with regard to social justice. Btw, thanks for fixing the formatting BA/MI. I’ll stick to using quotation marks going forward so that every comment doesn’t need to be cleaned up. Darwin was observing that, in practice, a consequence of private property is selfish misuse of property. He did not advocate such selfishness, much leas a right to such selfishness. He was doing more than observing a consequence. Anyone can observe that consequence; it is quite obvious. He is arguing that human beings should “have room” for selfishness: “However, just about any approach which involves respecting people’s right private property at all…involves leaving people some room to be selfish if they so choose.” To Darwin, we should respect the right to private property and this involves letting people be selfish if they choose to be. Of course he was not advocating selfishness. But he WAS advocating respecting the “right” to be selfish. To Darwin, true “respect” for “private property” means preserving the right to be selfish. “He is arguing that human beings should “have room” for selfishness…he WAS advocating respecting the “right” to be selfish.” That is exactly wrong. You have not provided one quote that said that 1) people should have room for selfishness, or that 2) a right to selfishness should be respected; only quotes saying that respecting a right to private property (as the Church does) results in permitting some level of selfishness. He did not say there ‘should’ be room for selfishness, he said that respecting private property does, in practice, leave room for some degree of selfishness. This is not ‘advocating respecting the right to be selfish,’ and is an observation completely consistent with CST. Nevertheless, for whatever reason, you decided to 1) put words in his mouth; 2) say the words you put in his mouth were not Catholic, 3) indulge in your wearying and familiar habit of baseless accusations of bad faith. Here’s Darwin response to you yesterday making exactly the same…one necessarily will leave people a certain amount of room to be selfish.” Analogously, a right to free speech means, in practice, that people will end up being rude and obnoxious on the Internet. To point out that fact doesn’t mean that one is defending your “right to be rude and obnoxious.” John Henry, thank you for pointing out how nonsensical Darwin’s position is. He wants to have it both ways: “And I was merely pointing out that so long as one acknowledges a right to private property…one necessarily will leave people a certain amount of room to be selfish.” Leaving people a “certain amount of room to be selfish” is AS IT SHOULD BE, according to Darwin, in his account of what “respect for private property” means. That he can then claim he is NOT advocating a “right to be selfish” is absurd once he has made such claims. While I can vaguely see how one might construe my use of “involves” to mean that the right to private property means that one must respect people’s ability to be selfish in some positive sense, it seems to me that if one read anything I wrote around it it’s pretty clear that’s not how “involves” was being used in this context. The meaning was more “has the result that”, which is a perfectly valid use of the word. And if you think about it: It really is pretty much impossible to imagine people having anything like private property and yet being absolutely prevented by some outside force from being selfish. How could one do otherwise? Say Joe makes a just wage, and as a result he has a certain amount of money and time for leisure. The fact that he owns this leisure time and money means that it is possible that if someone asks him for help which he is perfectly able to give, he may choose wrongly and refuse to provide that help. I’m unable to see how one could imagine a system in which it would be impossible that anyone would ever refuse something which it would be right for them to have given, and yet still have private property in any meaningful sense. Just about anything you have can be abused: If you have food, you can be gluttonous. If you have money or other resources, you can be selfish with them. If you have leisure time, you can be slothful. We don’t want to actively encourage and enable people to commit any of these sins, but it’s not really possible to completely prevent them while still allowing them their natural freedoms which contribute to human thriving. That’s all quite an elementary point, Darwin. It’s as if someone just wants to play games, pretending you said something else and forcing you to waste time explaining the obvious. Yes, Darwin, you just used the word freedom. As I was reading this thread and in particular John Henry’s defense of you, I was thinking that the better expression would have been “freedom to be selfish” (I know most would understand your words appropriately given the context, I’m just sayin’), which as we all know that the freedom to do or be something doesn’t mean that anyway we exercise that freedom is morally correct. That God gave us free will (and considers it good and the ability to be selfish, gluttonous, prideful, etc. doesn’t mean that we should be those things, nor does it mean we can stamp them out of others. The beauty of love, of sacrifice, of mercy and justice is that it comes from a choice – an exercise of free will. Imo, a moral right to private property, if reflected in law, creates a legal (but not a moral) right to act selfishly with that property. I do not think this observation is in anyway in conflict with Catholic social teaching. I think it is clear both that Michael I. was straining to read something into Darwin’s wording that wasn’t there, and furthermore that his subsequent assertion that the comment reflected the “kind of thinking is foreign to authentic Catholic social teaching,” was laughable on its face. Others mileage may vary, although I noticed S.B. had the same impression. To me, such a tendentious reading, and willingness to declare them outside the framework of CST is in tension with basic fairness, and it is something I’ve long deplored in Michael’s responses. I’ve said enough about the subject for now. I’ll give you (and anyone else who cares to) the final word, Michael. Apologies to BA for hi-jacking the thread. of course conservatives are stingy. The best one can hope for is that trickle down fraud. Democrats aren’t all that skilled in running government programs, but/because the scam that is the American system doesn’t even allow it. Europeans run programs well usually with benefits for all people unheard of in this cutthroat country. And, not all that many have to depend on private charity to begin with. If employees had a strong position in the US, thebneed for government “handouts” would be much lower to begin with. Not to mention that it’s a rather derogatory term, much like Reagan’s famous Cadillac driving “welfare queen”. Not Only do people get screwed, they also get mocked if they fall on hard times – frequently caused by deregulated madness. With the dreadful religious right to boot, there is no way to see conservatives, as a group, as, putting it mildly, awful people. I’ll pass on the “final word” John. Too much B.S. to address. Here’s a charity I like. I saw it on EWTN, it was started by a good Catholic guy. Giving to this charity increases justice around the world and saves lives. Michael, you use the term justice. You were asked for your definition of it. I’m waiting with great interest for that particular information. There is a question that I bring up sometimes. It goes like this. “Don’t you think we ought to help people who are more fortunate than us?” Who could disagree with that, until you start looking closer at the question. How do you define “help” and how do you define “less fortunate”. So I’d like to promote justice, Michael, but I believe my definition of justice is much different than yours. What is yours?

I am often asked, "How do you DO what you do??" I have been Intuitive and Sensitive all my life. I saw spirits and angels and had paranormal experiences in childhood. I had many psychic abilities and could sense things about people. I have what some people call "Second Sight." Growing up, I had many premonitions and dreams that come true. I am able to sense subtle energies and forces around people, places, projects, animals, businesses, and many other things. I am guided by strong Intuition and Clairvoyant Visions. When I do sessions for people, I receive many messages and impressions from the Angels, Spirit Guides, and even Relatives on The Other Side. I am able to connect with my Holy Guardian Angel and helpful spirits. I receive impressions from them via Telepathy. Sometimes, it is a direct message, sometimes I am directed in visions and see significant events yet to come. I explain to you what I am seeing, hearing, feeling and sensing on this level of reality and Beyond. We live in a multi-dimensional universe. Many, many times, my impressions have alerted my clients to potential disasters and saved their lives. TESTIMONIAL Ghostly Encounter!!!! On a recent trip to Australia, my daughter and I went on an evening ghost tour of the" historical waterfront district" in Sydney, commonly called the "Rocks". Nearing the end of the tour we visited the home of a Sea Captain, who, in a jealous rage murdered and buried his wife. As it was almost midnight and I was quite tired, I proceeded , quite foolishly really, to sit on the stairs of the homes' entrance while our guide told us the chilling tale. The next day I caught my plane home to the good old USA. Upon returning, besides the usual jet lag, I continued to feel uneasy in my body. I couldn't organize my thoughts. It was like I just didn't belong anywhere. I then called Clarisse. After talking for only a minute or so she said "You have a very nasty entity attached to your left hip!" Where have you been?, and where did you sit down ?" I was shocked and amazed at the same time. I told her of the ghost walk. She laughed and reminded me once again how important it is to always surround myself with protection, then she set about clearing my physical and etheric fields. She also gave me some homework to do on my own, which empowers me to be responsible in the living of my life. The disturbance I felt was gone within a few days and I was able to carry on with my life. ...A little wiser, and grateful for Clarisse's ability to see beyond the veils of normal perception. Clarisse is a gifted psychic, and my friend... Terry, Sedona, AZ THANK YOU FOR VISITING MY WEB PAGE! I offer Psychic Readings, Clairvoyant Consultations, Tarot Card Readings, Spiritual Services & Remedies. My 35 Years of Professional Experience as a Psychic, Spiritual Advisor and Naturally Gifted Clairvoyant can help you. My WEEKLY PERSONAL INTUITIVE LIFE COACHING provides extra help and support when needed to help you through a crisis, and through big Life Challenges. I CAN HELP YOU regain your spiritual balance and empower you to make better choices to recreate a more fulfilling, happier life. All Psychic Coachin g is prepaid. 4 Weeks , 4 15 minute Sessions @ $ 60 each Booked and Paid in Advance $24 0 . Call Today!! Paypal Sorry, no checks! "A friend a couple of weeks ago referred me to Clarisse. I had pretty much given up on getting readings, nevertheless, I had a strong feeling to speak with Clarisse. When I first spoke to her I felt a warm, friendly and caring person. I am in the process of starting a business and Clarisse really spoke to my heart and zoned in on what specialities I would be working with on clients. It confirmed that I was on board and going in the right direction. It really increased my confidence and gave me much inspiration. Clarisse also pointed out that she saw me as a "Tumbler" on the astral plane. I had not relayed any information to her that I started gymnastics in high school and had stopped to get a job. I informed her that I think back about how I should have proceeded with gymnastics because it was something that I really enjoyed doing. Because of her insight in this area of my life, it is something that I feel I will pursue. I was also amazed how Clarisse read other aspects of my life from my talents to my health. She was very informative and it really resonated with me. I am glad my friend recommended Clarisse and I would highly recommend her as well." C.B., Atlanta, Georgia TESTIMONIAL May 4, 2009 Hi Clarisse! Please know that I don't expect you to respond to this in any way -- time is money, and I respect that! I just had to tell you what happened... I n our call, I mentioned a trip to Mexico I was taking with my mother (end of April). You told me to be sure to pack extra food because I wasn't "going to like the airport food" and there would be " delays ".... I am here to tell you just how accurate you were ! The story is kind of hilarious, so bear with me if it gets lengthy. We drove over to pick up my Mom for the 3 hour drive to BART, and then the 1:18 trip on BART to SFO. I had in the back of my mind to go through a quick list of necessities with her, once we got there, but promptly forgot to do that as she already had her bag in the driveway and was raring to go. So, off we went. When we got all the way to SFO (4 and a half hours later), and I off-handedly said, "You have your passport, right?" -- She went totally white and in horror, explained that she did NOT have it. Without boring you with ALL the details, l et's just say there was some major flight changing going on.... All was good in Mexico -- except a pandemic broke out ! Fortunately, by the time they shut down all activities over there, we had already gone to the ruins (twice) and a cool little island off the coast. We were really unaffected by it UNTIL we had to go back to the airport. Our flights traveled directly through Mexico City, so of course, I felt the need to get masks and antibacterial everything to protect us! It was NOT AVAILABLE. I tried everywhere...small pharmacies, big pharmacies, Walmart, the gift shop, the tour guides -- everywhere! I finally managed to get two masks from a flight attendant - from her own personal supply! We traveled to Mexico City -- and the incoming flight (our outgoing plane)was delayed . The plane didn't come in for nearly an hour after ours was to have taken off, so we didn't arrive in SFO again (after 10 hours wearing masks and scrubbing with alcohol gel every 5 seconds) until after midnight. BUT - and here's the best part - I had packed a bunch of protein bars because of what you said. I packed three bottles of water for us each and every time we left the hotel - including when we went to the airport. I insisted that my mom drink water and eat protein bars everywhere we went because I was sure (thanks to you) we'd be held longer than we thought -- and we were! I know you must hear all the time how accurate your comments are, but I had to share with you that (as a first-timer) I was very impressed by talking with you and very appreciative of your foresight for our trip -- it really made a difference! - DD - Chico CLAIRVOYANT ~ TAROT 30 minutes $100 PAYPAL Telephone Reading ~ taped Each session is complete at the end of our conversation. Clarification or further questions require a New Appointment. Thank You! Special Offer expires 5-31-12 1- 530-877-3446 TESTIMONIAL from a loyal KOA Listener Clarisse: Good Afternoon! So I called in to Rick's show and was the caller after the whole DIA conversation. I thought I would tell you about some background to what you told me. The most striking thing you said was that I had a "huge 3 year issue" and something happened that kind of ambushed me. I am sending off this email because of something you told me when you gave me a reading in the fall of 2004 ( I was in a Red Roof Inn in Rutland, Vermont) you told me I needed to quit my driving job or I was going to be in an accident. Being a truck driver and a person who looks to psychic reading as much entertainment as anything , so I did not heed your advice. Well- on 12/7/2006 I was in an accident that cost me 3 months of my life. The messed up part is that I was kept out of work because I had post concussion syndrome and they did not want me driving 80,000 pounds of rolling death while I was, Ahhh--intellectually disconnected. I lost something like $30,000 in pay, I swept my 401K empty, I sold a car I loved like a child and now I have an issue with my shoulder. The accident was caused by the other driver and his insurance company only paid out a shade under $10 K. I tried to go back to driving, but after 6 months or so I took an office job with a pay cut. But I am much happier and I know my kids now :) The funny thing? That accident was about 3 years ago. And I have had someone approach me about my car. You almost scared me out of my skin with this one!! Thanks!! You have always been very enlightening. Now that I am listening :) Sean Stacey, Denver, Colorado Hello, Welcome to my webpage! This is a year of many changes for all of us. Let's make 2012 a celebration ! We can renew our Hopes, Dreams and Plans by seeking Spiritual answers. I have been dubbed "The Guide Mother" and many other endearing terms, by happy, satisfied clients. If you need confidential, psychic and clairvoyant insights, I can help you! I am a professional psychic and have 34 years of experience as a Psychic and Tarot Reader. I have many spiritual gifts such as clairvoyance, clairaudience, and visions. I have used altered state abilities since I was a little girl. I have worked on radio since the late 1980's, giving live readings over the air to audiences around the world. I am as near as your telephone. I will be happy to help you. All readings & sessions are for entertainment purposes only. They are not to be substituted for medical, legal, financial, or psychicatric advice. All responsibilities regarding Life Decisions & their actions belong to the Client. Call 1-530-877-3446 "IN-DEPTH" PSYCHIC, CLAIRVOYANT READINGS, CONSULTATIONS, SPIRITUAL ADVICE, PSYCHIC LIFE COACHING , ALL SESSIONS ARE PREPAID BY PAYPAL or U.S. POSTAL MONEY ORDERS !! ( Sorry, NoChecks, No Exceptions) Mail your U.S. Postal money order to: Psychic Clarisse Conner P.O. Box 287, Chico, CA 95927 Call 1-530-877-3446 for Appointments For your Telephone Reading, You call : 1-530-877-4769 ** CONFIDENTIAL PSYCHIC READINGS ** * * PREDICTIONS* * ** BUSINESS CONSULTATIONS** **SPIRITUAL LIFE COACH** * * SPIRITUAL ANTIDOTES* * ***PARANORMAL ADVICE**** 15 min @ $ 75 30 min @ $150 45 min @ $225 60 min @ $300 Clarisse has has helped thousands of people, world-wide! Readings are for entertainment purposes only . Testimonial: " I talked to you on KOA Denver Radio, the Rick Barber Radio Show, 2 years ago about purchasing a home in Australia. You told me I would buy 2 houses, and you were right! The property we bought has 2 houses on it! You're awesome!" B. Sydney, Australia "Clarisse sees things coming! My family is so grateful for your advice. The baby is perfect, just like you said she would be!! Thank you! " P., Erie, Pennsylvania TESTIMONIAL FEBRUARY 27, 2010 I have known Clarisse for four years, during which my life has been a series of major life changes. It’s been incredibly helpful to have consulted with her about so many BIG shifts in my life. Most recently, my family and I moved to a new country and we were concerned with finances and our need for a work visa to be able to stay in the country long-term. I interviewed for a job, was offered the position -- hooray! -- and told the company I would need a work visa. The person I spoke with said she’d have to discuss it with the CEO but it all seemed fine. I was nervous because so much seemed to be riding on this job and visa. So I contacted Clarisse for insight and she said, among other things, that she felt they’d keep me on as a new hire and that the law (visa issue) would be satisfied. Whew, that was a relief! Shortly thereafter, the company contacted me and backed out of the arrangement. I was in shock and stressed out, but then thought of Clarisse saying they’d keep me on. A few days later, after further discussions, the company hired me after all. This was another example of my going through “emotional gymnastics” only to find out that Clarisse “called it like it would happen” and was right all along. Clarisse is a gifted psychic and I am grateful that she’s in my life and is such a good friend. Thank you, Clarisse! Love, B Australia THANKS TO ALL THE WONDERFUL PEOPLE SENDING IN THEIR TESTIMONIALS! I AM VERY BLESSED AND APPRECIATIVE OF YOUR SINCERE TESTIMONIALS. A THOUSAND BLESSINGS TO YOU! Clarisse Clairvoyant Clarisse Conner has many Spiritual Gifts & Psychic Abilities to Help You find Your Answers to Important Questions!!! Seeing, Hearing, Feeling,Intuiting,Dreams, Prophecies,Automatic Writing,MediumVisionaryHealing & Clearing Spiritual ProtectionClasses, Workshops, ... Working with her Angels, & High Level Spirit Guides , Clarisse is connected with the Other Side. Mystical Reflections and Divination for Enlightenment Please call for Appointment 1-530-877-3446 CLARISSE CONNER PSYCHIC CLAIRVOYANT MEDIUM 1-530-877-3446 Enjoying a Happy Moment at the Healing Arts Festival & Psychic Fair in Chico, CA November 2010. See the picture??? My prediction came true for this lucky Mommy :) She wanted to "show & tell" me her good news!! It's heart-warming moments like this that make my spiritual work even more enjoyable!!! Just look for the Angels on my table .... I'm easy to find! I do the Healing Arts Festival & Psychic Fair in Chico twice a year. I love meeting clients in person! It's a nice treat. I usually do readings and consultations by phone. I have thousands of online clients around the world. I provide Intuitive Life Coaching, Intuitive Animal Communication, Past Life Reviews, and Future Casting using many forms of Divination and my personal psychic abilities. So, you ask W hy get a psychic reading or personal intuitive training with Clarisse? It's all about empowering yourself with Hidden information, making better, accurate decisions. It's good to know what is ahead of you! Getting Accurate Answers helps you cope and make new plans as your lfe changes. Want to know how long until the tide changes in your favor?? Knowing when your Life will change, when to search out new jobs, relocate, renew love, gives you added confidence and renewed Hope. CALL CLARISSE TODAY...1-530-877-3446 Hi Clarisse Dec. 11, 2010 Below is a testimonial for the prediction you made about the fires summer 2008. My name is Michelle Smith and I live in Butte Valley, Ca. I had a reading over the phone from you on January 23 2008. It is now December 2010 and I finally bought a tape player (I haven't owned one in years) and decided to listen to the tape you had recorded of that reading and was amazed to find that you clearly predicted the devastating fires we had back in May 2008. (in your exact words) "Within 5 weeks to 5 months there will be a severe catastrophic event, weather related affecting Paradise in which you will play a big part" You clearly go on to state how I will have concern for the animals and how they will need help. Well I can't recall the exact date that I returned home from work to find my neighborhood totally evacuated. It was a frightening experience. After safely evacuating most of my animals in cars with family I had the problem of my horse and a horse trailer but no truck. They would not let my husband or my father past the road blocks. I love that damned horse so much, I hand walked him out of there. The ashes falling now were not white ash but big black particles with lit edges. As I walked my horse down Clark road there were actually birds falling out of the sky around us. It honestly felt like the Apocalypse (to me). The sky looked like it was on fire. I was determined to walk my horse all the way to my father's place in Durham if I had to. There were caravans upon caravans of people evacuating passing us. Luckily, we came across a nice lady and her girls loading up some horses and she offered me a ride. So, I got all my animals out safely and while we were evacuated (several days) I continued to work up at the hospital as an emergency operator even after the it was completely evacuated. There were several people I knew and worked with who lost their homes and everything they had. The fire came up to a little creek we have about 15 feet behind our house but didn't cross. It was Big news and by far the most devastating situation we've had for a very long time. Well, that's my story. I never realized you had predicted this until very recently listening to the tape. You know you also predicted the birth of my twin boys in that same reading (which is a much better story than this one but has already been told). Everything that I've stated is ABSOLUTELY TRUE and 100% REAL. I welcome anyone questioning the validity of my statements to email me and I will provide you with a copy of my tape. If you need help, or you're lost, or confused, and maybe don't know who you can trust, I can tell you that you will not be disappointed after speaking with Clarisse. Both predictions were from one reading, and though it seemed like a lot of money to me at the time, it was well worth it and I look forward to doing it again. Clarisse has reached out to me and shown me kindness. Since witnessing her prediction about the birth of my twin boys, several friends, coworkers, and family have seen her and she has treated them with the same kindness (and accuracy). Again, my name is Michelle Smith and my email is " @yahoo.com" I have nothing to gain from writing this but the hope that others can find validation in their lives who they are and why they are here. It certainly helps me get through the hardest parts of life. Clarisse is the only one who has been able to provide me with concrete validation that I cannot argue as coincidence. I was a skeptic but could no longer be when faced with truth. ***** BY REQUEST**** PAYMENTS*DONATIONS CLARISSE CONNER $ 10......> $ 20......> $ 30......> $ 40.......> $ 50........> $ 60........> $ 70.......> $ 80.......> $ 90.......> $100......> $200......> $300.....> $400......> $500.......> $1,000.....> $2,000.....> $3,000......> Thank You! INTERNATIONALLY RENOWNED PSYCHIC CLAIRVOYANT, & ADVISOR IS JUST A PHONE CALL AWAY! 1-530-877-3446 TESTIMONIAL FOR CLARISSE DECEMBER 15, 2010 I've been getting readings from Clarisse for last 10 years. Her great gift to see beyond and bring the messages from her angels to us is incredible. She expresses herself very well and her sense of humor and laugh is a great addition to the reading. She is compassionate and caring. She tapes the readings which I appreciate a lot. I listened to them over and over again and always found something new I missed earlier. The last reading was the most amazing. She told me that I was going to design a new divination system within 30 days and I would get the images in a meditative state. Next morning I woke up and got the inspiration what to do. I had my system in 30 minutes! I've recommended her to all my friends. Thank you Clarisse for all your wonderful work and dedication! Love, Yana, CA GIFTED PSYCHIC CLARISSE CONNER READINGS CONSULTATIONS SPIRITUAL LIFE COACHING TELEPHONE SESSIONS 15 minutes $60 All Sessions with Clarisse must be Prepaid. Each session is complete at the end of our conversation. Clarification or further questions require a New Appointment. Thank You! Prepaid via PAYPAL All readings are for entertainment purposes only. PET READINGS Call for Appointment 1-530-877-3446 15 minutes $50 All readings are for entertainment purposes only. Thank You! Paypal " MIRACULOUS MOTHER PRAYER by Clarisse Conner 3/4/11 "Miraculous Mother, Please hear my prayer. Spread your Gracious Light upon us that we return to our Sacred Center, our Divine Purpose and our special place in life. Shield us from all evil. Bring instant help when there is no hope, and deliver us from the rogue thought forms and energies walking upon our planet. Shield us in our daily life and travels. Let our Loved Ones All be Protected by Your Divine Light and Love. Thank You for your Infinite Mercy and Many Blessings. Amen!" Clarisse, APRIL 2011 I just wanted to give you an update on a reading you gave me several months ago. I had called inquiring about future career endeavors. I asked about two different fields of possibly going into. You told me that one of them was going to work out for me, but be careful as to how I approached it. You had told me to let the person come to me and not make my intentions of wanting to work for them known. I did what you said and lo and behold!! It ended up playing out, word for word as you said it would! You had told me to make sure to get all certifications in place which came up when I was offered the job so I am making sure I follow through on that as well. You told me in the same reading to focus on the word "Joy" and bring that into my life in any way possible. At the time, I didn't think much of it, but as things began to play out and opportunities, especially in this are of work presented themselves, it became clear what you were trying to tell me. I do have so much "Joy" in this area of my life and couldn't be happier as to how things are playing out!!! Thank you so much for your insight, honesty, support and for sharing your gift with me and so many others. Sincerely, Melissa M any blessings to YOU and your loved ones as we begin our adventure of 2012! What will 2012 have in store for you? Find out your Future with my Forecast! * Love? * Money? *Career? *Relationships? * Relocations? *Financial Regrouping? *Need Spiritual Help or Advice? Enjoy Today! Life is Precious, handle with care Start your new Life N-O-W! Need a Little Extra Spiritual Antidotes & Advice.... Do you have some really important questions you'd like to ask Clarisse? Answers are are as close as your phone. Call today!!! Do you need Clarity, Peace of Mind, or Spiritual insights? Clarisse will give you hidden information you need to know to make better decisions. Empower yourself! Take time to call Clarisse today and begin your new Life!!

Gina Carano pics and excerpts from Maxim featured on FOXNews.com Props: FOXNews.com (For the "article" click here.) Thanks to MMAmania.com reader "John Lithgow" for the assist. | 0 recs | Do you like this story? say what you want but i freaken love this girl. by Blazy J on Feb 16, 2009 2:54 PM EST reply actions I’m right there with you, brother… by BigRedOne on Feb 16, 2009 2:57 PM EST up reply actions Shania Twain? by Reldeed on Feb 16, 2009 3:42 PM EST up reply actions I was just about to say that. She looks just like Shania Twain one of the hottest women on earth. by hatteras on Feb 16, 2009 4:41 PM EST up reply actions In other news that made me cream my pants: Fedor will meet with the UFC in June to discuss a fight against Brock! by john on Feb 16, 2009 4:57 PM EST up reply actions and I can provide sources if mania will let me post it. Can I Mania? by john on Feb 16, 2009 4:57 PM EST up reply actions is it just me or does her face look superimposed on that body? by sac165 on Feb 16, 2009 4:59 PM EST up reply actions It does look photoshopped, but then again all magazine shoots these days are rarely what was taken on film. by Sean M on Feb 16, 2009 5:02 PM EST up reply actions john- I heard the same thing earlier today. I guess Fedor said he was hoping that him and his people could meet with Dana about it. I won’t get my hopes up but it is certainly good news. by RyanHobbs on Feb 16, 2009 5:10 PM EST up reply actions I’d rather wait at least a couple years before putting Brock and Fedor in the same cage together. Brock is too young an inexperienced to be able to handle Fedor. by kitsunex on Feb 16, 2009 5:16 PM EST up reply actions Ryann: Dana has also been kissing his ass in the media lately…Talking about what a “bad mother Focker” Fedor is and that he would put him up against his best fighters on a consistant basis if he was in the UFC cause Fedor is amazing! I see a lot of debate about UFC 100 match ups. Here is what I hear so far: Gsp vs. Alves Rashad vs. Rampage (assuming he buries Jardine) Bisping vs Henderson Goran Reljic vs. TBA other rumors: Nog vs. Couture Cro Cop vs. tBA (maybe Couture) I wouldnt mind seeing cro cop vs. Nog 2. its been 6 years since their first fight. by john on Feb 16, 2009 5:22 PM EST up reply actions Kitsunex, you hit the nail on the head. The whole reason Fedor wants to take Brock on now is precisely due to the inexperience factor. No better way to mitigate the size, power and speed of Lesnar. Personally, I hope Fedor kicks Lesnar’s azz. by BigRedOne on Feb 16, 2009 5:40 PM EST up reply actions U couldnt be more wrong! Fedor has always wanted to fight current UFC champions. He knows Mir is a farce, and Brock just beat Couture, which would make the match up HUGE for Fedor! He beats Brocks ass in the UFC, like I know he would, and he instantly becomes an icon in american mma, if he isnt one already! it has nothing to do with the inexperience. Fedor isnt like that…He is a true warrior! by john on Feb 16, 2009 6:07 PM EST up reply actions FIGHT Announcement*** Bisping vs. Henderson for UFC 100 has been CONFIRMED!!!! by john on Feb 16, 2009 6:17 PM EST up reply actions Jamie Varner’s mma career might be over. He is waiting on the results from some eye tests, and if he has a detached retina, he will have to retire from the sport! I am not a fan, but I wish him the best, and hope that his career does not get cut short! by john on Feb 16, 2009 6:28 PM EST up reply actions I used to be a Cro Cop fan but after the Kongo fight I knew he was never going to be the feared pride star of old. That was more than solidified in the Overeem fight in my eyes. He should retire, and I would be very upset to see him appear on the 100 card. For one thing I know that I will be buying that ppv, and I really dont want to pay to watch him fight. More title fights are required to make this event a success. by JRE on Feb 16, 2009 7:19 PM EST up reply actions John- I haven’t really heard Dana talk any good about Fedor lately but I will take your word for it. That certainly sounds like something he would do if he were on the brink of possibly signing him however. I think that Dana should allow Fedor to compete in the Sambo tournaments. It may not be fair to some other fighters but Fedor has earned some sort of special treatment. by RyanHobbs on Feb 16, 2009 8:51 PM EST up reply actions what about BJ and Kenny at ufc 100? Along with Pit Bull vs GSP those would be 2 good title fights. Is Q getting a title shot at 100 for sure if beats Jardine? This means that Lyoto still has to wait? I think this is garbage, Q is one of my favirotes but Lyoto deserves a shot and shouldnt have to wait till the end of the year. I love Cro Cop but i dont know if he will ever be great again. I want to see him still just because i still hold out hope but i dont know. Bisping vs Hendo would be great also. by mudwane on Feb 17, 2009 1:38 AM EST up reply actions agreed! by gaara on Feb 16, 2009 6:48 PM EST up reply actions with you boys on this one DAMNNNN by Jared on Feb 16, 2009 7:12 PM EST up reply actions but also cant believe my two favs are on the biggest card ever WAR HENDO & RAMPAGE by Jared on Feb 16, 2009 7:14 PM EST up reply actions Boobies!!!! by chefdaddy on Feb 16, 2009 9:44 PM EST up reply actions FWAP FWAP FWAP FWAP FWAP FWAP by GoColts on Feb 16, 2009 2:54 PM EST reply actions nice by Colin on Feb 16, 2009 2:54 PM EST reply actions Boobies! by naturalshadow on Feb 16, 2009 9:41 PM EST up reply actions yea, Kevin is gonna say she’s not that hot again, but even a cute girl who kicks the shit out of ppl is hot as hell by Crowls on Feb 16, 2009 2:55 PM EST reply actions I bet you I know why there are no pictures of her legs. One word: cankles!!!! by El Mexicutioner, formerly The Mexicutioner on Feb 16, 2009 2:55 PM EST reply actions cankles shmakels, i would rub her cankles after every practice. by Blazy J on Feb 16, 2009 3:01 PM EST up reply actions I was expecting to see you at the top of the page mexi! She’s hot but those pics have definitely doctored; otherwise it means she could have made weight all those times. by NameNotRequired on Feb 16, 2009 3:04 PM EST up reply actions Thats what I was thinking. She can make weight for Maxim but not her fights??? by subwayy2sallyy on Feb 16, 2009 3:32 PM EST up reply actions sHE IS a bad Biatch! Her face is amazing, and if the only flaw you can find is canckles…I can deal with that! Yes the pics might be doctored but even Kevin cant hate on the way she looks in this pic….if she had darker skin, Kevin would be all over that! lol, I know some of you guys too well! hahaha by john on Feb 16, 2009 4:20 PM EST up reply actions i wouldnt complain if those cankles were up around my ears, and neither would you mexi. by Egads on Feb 16, 2009 7:26 PM EST up reply actions No one on this website is kicking Gina out of bed because she isn’t attractive enough. If that is the case, then maybe you just have to picture she is GSP. haha by naturalshadow on Feb 16, 2009 9:39 PM EST up reply actions UPDATE: I read on the Greenpeace web site that Maxim was going to show a fully body shot, but Greenpeace and Al Gore objected and were able to stop them because they would use too much of the Earth’s oxygen trying to air brush Gina’s massive canckles. by El Mexicutioner, formerly The Mexicutioner on Feb 16, 2009 3:43 PM EST up reply actions pitifull attempt at a joke by bobby oshea on Feb 16, 2009 4:01 PM EST up reply actions fail by bons on Feb 16, 2009 7:41 PM EST up reply actions man you have to be exploratively gay…or just ridiculously shallow to deny yourself a peace of gina hot ass…shame on you! by santiago69us on Feb 16, 2009 3:59 PM EST up reply actions Yeah, you caught me. I’m out now. What a relief!!!! by El Mexicutioner, formerly The Mexicutioner on Feb 16, 2009 7:31 PM EST up reply actions Whatever, she’s almost as airbrushed as that Valentine’s day starfish! by Jeremyjackson on Feb 16, 2009 2:59 PM EST reply actions I’ve seen better airbrushing at one of those ghetto t-shirt stores in the malls. by El Mexicutioner, formerly The Mexicutioner on Feb 16, 2009 3:08 PM EST up reply actions that’s fricken’ hilarious!! by blackbeerd on Feb 16, 2009 4:19 PM EST up reply actions If this was bloodyelbow, you would be banned again. hahaha by RyanHobbs on Feb 16, 2009 8:52 PM EST up reply actions I unbanned myself. SSSSHHHHHH!!!!!! by El Mexicutioner, formerly The Mexicutioner on Feb 16, 2009 9:30 PM EST up reply actions Why were you banned again Mexi? by Syd[a.k.a."The Negation"] on Feb 18, 2009 4:02 AM EST up reply actions The way those things flatten out, they might be real! I always thought that her boobs were to big to be real for someone who is so fit. by Freddy on Feb 16, 2009 3:04 PM EST reply actions Makes me want to fukk!!!! by Jack Mehoff on Feb 16, 2009 3:14 PM EST reply actions yes, the “article”. haha. Sideboob is a wonderful thing. by Clayton on Feb 16, 2009 3:26 PM EST reply actions If they didn’t say it was gina I wouldn’t even know it was her, holy air brushed, they must had taken 100 photo’s to get one that good. Is this really gina? Doesn’t she have a mole on her face or something? At least its not the the gaylord pic of gsp trying for a blue steel look, gsp needs to stick to fighting same with gina, there no models. by nathan on Feb 16, 2009 3:27 PM EST reply actions they took one photo and then spend 5 days altering it. by Clayton on Feb 16, 2009 6:52 PM EST up reply actions Maxim.com could make a wart hog look sexy. by nathan on Feb 16, 2009 3:28 PM EST reply actions She’s been airbrushed so much she looks like a CGI version of herself. She is hot period. Nice cans. by DubNub on Feb 16, 2009 3:29 PM EST reply actions Personally I prefer her in her non-made-up shots. Just sayin’… by Dave on Feb 16, 2009 3:31 PM EST reply actions God damn, those pics are airbrushed like hell. I’d still do the violin on her though, no shit. by Dan Quinn on Feb 16, 2009 3:50 PM EST reply actions What a gem, holy shit. by BMO on Feb 16, 2009 3:54 PM EST reply actions c’mon!! i can’t take the tease anymore gina by hamsterwheel on Feb 16, 2009 3:57 PM EST reply actions Sexy by ja434650 on Feb 16, 2009 4:05 PM EST reply actions i would prefer racier photos but ill take what i can get by rich on Feb 16, 2009 4:13 PM EST reply actions Let’s all say it together: Gina Carano has an awesome agent. by A Lynch on Feb 16, 2009 4:27 PM EST reply actions Your guys need glasses she not that great, holy shit, she wouldn’t cut it as a model, she’s a freaking fighter, ya she’s good for a fighter but c’mon, its like saying your mom is hot for a 60 years old. by nathan on Feb 16, 2009 4:41 PM EST reply actions Lets just say she is not your thing….but there is a lot of people who would disagree with you. I would personally F*CK the shit out of it…but then again Ive always gone for a thicker body w/ dark eyes/hair over a skinny blonde any day so each to their own eh? by Ca$z on Feb 17, 2009 8:35 AM EST up reply actions She should just do playboy imo. by Khaos_warrior on Feb 16, 2009 4:47 PM EST reply actions All you guys saying she’s “not that hot” or calling her out for having cankles or whatever know, FOR A FACT, that you’ve never had a piece off ass HALF that hot in your life and you’d beg her for some of it were you given the chance. Posers. by Ronnie Coles on Feb 16, 2009 4:56 PM EST reply actions And are you saying you can get girls that hot? Face it dude, your a net nerd. You cant. by BrutalKnockout. on Feb 16, 2009 5:58 PM EST up reply actions I’m not the one knocking her, genius. by Ronnie Coles on Feb 16, 2009 7:27 PM EST up reply actions I agree with you that she’s hot, but man, she not smoking hot or anything. I live in Shanghai, so don’t give me that sh*t about only being able to piece girls half as sexy…..lol by Luke in Shanghai on Feb 17, 2009 12:07 AM EST up reply actions Well here in Manila, girls that are hotter than her, I fvck every once in a little while! As in “legit mag models”! And that’s an understatement! by Syd[a.k.a."The Negation"] on Feb 18, 2009 4:05 AM EST up reply actions I love her by Irish on Feb 16, 2009 5:07 PM EST reply actions She’s a hottie for sure. Any guy on here saying other wise is just trying to make up for their multiple rejections from other women and rejections in life in general. All Magazine pics are “doctored” by the way, so pointing that out is pointless…. by Dman087953 on Feb 16, 2009 5:09 PM EST reply actions Thank God for Adobe Photoshop! by Syd[a.k.a."The Negation"] on Feb 18, 2009 4:07 AM EST up reply actions Thank God for women. by Bennie Blanco from the Bronx on Feb 16, 2009 5:10 PM EST reply actions I think she’s gifted. by Luppers on Feb 16, 2009 5:21 PM EST reply actions Can’t wait for the sex tape to come out. by JimmieGreens on Feb 16, 2009 5:25 PM EST reply actions I’ve just got to edit a few scenes that aren’t as flattering as I would like them to be. by James S on Feb 16, 2009 6:22 PM EST up reply actions She’s pretty but horrendiously overrated, have any of you guys ever gone to a real classy bar?, not some biker hang out, she’s average and below average for a model but good for a fighter. by nathan on Feb 16, 2009 5:33 PM EST reply actions True, but “classy” bar. I think that’s an oxymoron and besides, people who use the term “classy” are just so Klas-say!!! by Teep on Feb 16, 2009 7:14 PM EST up reply actions is that one of those bars where they all drink martinis or disarono on the rocks. those broads are all airbrushed live with collogen injections and tissues in their bras. you would still hit this girl and be bragging to all who would listen. by Egads on Feb 16, 2009 7:30 PM EST up reply actions obviously the photoshop takes like 15 pounds away, she should think about that next time she is having trouble cutting weight by eviljohn on Feb 16, 2009 5:35 PM EST reply actions Took the photographer 2 hours to take them. Took about 17 hours to airbrush. Barely even looks like her. by DirtyML on Feb 16, 2009 5:38 PM EST reply actions She’s hot! I would totally suck her boobs… by biggenutz on Feb 16, 2009 5:45 PM EST reply actions while holding her sideboobs! LMAO by Syd[a.k.a."The Negation"] on Feb 18, 2009 4:07 AM EST up reply actions She is so gorgeous! Wow, and i’m very excited for UFC 100. I’m going to try and buy tickets as soon as they go on sale. by Chris on Feb 16, 2009 6:00 PM EST reply actions Seriously…just when I thought I couldn’t hate Fox News any more, they do this. They’re almost ok in my books now… by Dredg XI on Feb 16, 2009 6:25 PM EST reply actions I like how nathan keeps posting the same garbage over and over, we get the point your into dudes, move on. by LG on Feb 16, 2009 6:48 PM EST reply actions any1 else thinking that she had her nipples air brushed? by ruan-fiy on Feb 16, 2009 7:05 PM EST reply actions i would. i don’t know if that says anything more for her though or if that says more about me. by Chris on Feb 16, 2009 7:13 PM EST reply actions She’s definitely HOT, she has a natural looks and a natural beauti..she doesn’t need photoshop to touch up.. by MaChida on Feb 16, 2009 7:32 PM EST reply actions Yum Just Yum. Each to their own. If some of you guys like those wiafs with no a&^ or T&*& then by all means leave those fat girls to me as long as they all look like her :) by ldcpanther on Feb 16, 2009 7:39 PM EST reply actions set phasors for FAPFAPFAP by Sirchokemout on Feb 16, 2009 8:17 PM EST reply actions My mouth is watering, and I sense a slight chubby coming on. What a godess, Thank you Gina! by The Juice! on Feb 16, 2009 8:18 PM EST reply actions Slight chubby….ha ha ha thats some funny shit! by Ca$z on Feb 17, 2009 8:44 AM EST up reply actions Boobies! by BobC on Feb 16, 2009 8:43 PM EST reply actions Man LG so when my oppion differs than yours or the majority its garbage and I’m into guys, you must have the IQ of a mule and fore some reason I bet your twice as ugly. by nathan on Feb 16, 2009 9:43 PM EST reply actions All you guys saying she’s fat and unattractive seriously must have your boyfriends dicks too far up your asses. She’s definitely got that natural sexy girl next door thing to her look with a nice body and she kicks ass. by Sinister on Feb 16, 2009 11:36 PM EST reply actions +1 by Ca$z on Feb 17, 2009 8:44 AM EST up reply actions She is beautiful!! I actually think she looks hotter while fighting. Either way, she’s still delicious to look at. by justagirl on Feb 17, 2009 6:42 PM EST reply actions drooooooooool…………….. by Syd[a.k.a."The Negation"] on Feb 18, 2009 4:09

Jake Shields set to do battle against Joe Riggs at upcoming Strikeforce event on April 11 MMAmania.com has been able to confirm that former EliteXC Welterweight Champion Jake Shields (22-4–1) will take on UFC and Strikeforce veteran Joe Riggs (29-10) on the main card of the new-look Strikeforce debut show on April 11 in San Jose, California. Shields -– widely regarded as the top welterweight in the world not fighting in the UFC -– recently finished Cage Rage Welterweight Champion Paul "Semtex" Daley at Elite XC: "Heat" on CBS "Saturday Night Fights" last October. The Cesar Gracie-trained Brazilian jiu-jitsu standout is on a blistering 11 seven opponents –- something that was a knock on him midway through in his blossoming career. For "Diesel" this will be his fifth fight for Strikeforce and his seventh since leaving the UFC following a knockout loss to Diego Sanchez in December of 2006. He's currently back in the win column after smashing fast rising jiu-jitsu stud Luke Stewart at Strikeforce "Destruction" last November. Riggs has been plagued by injuries and other issues outside the cage throughout his career and after a stint at middleweight, has returned once and for all to the welterweight division. The talented 25-year-old Arizona native has had an up-and-down career and there’s no doubt that a win over Shields would vault him back into contention. The April 11 card will feature Nick Diaz and Frank Shamrock facing off in the evening's main event at a catchweight of 179 pounds. Gilbert Melendez, Scott Smith and Benji Radach are all expected to be in action as well. | 0 recs | Do you like this story? shields is gonna sub this guy in the 1st round easily.. nothing against riggs he’s a funny guy in most interviews and a talented fighter but shields is to good and on such a good roll right now it’s just not gonna happen for riggs by randy murders on Feb 17, 2009 11:58 PM EST reply actions I hope Riggs KO’s Shields! Sheilds stand-up sucks. And hopefully Riggs will be to big to be taken down. by JV on Feb 18, 2009 12:25 AM EST up reply actions You know, that’s a definite possibility… lots of people say Joe’s washed up, but he’s only 25yrs old. Riggs seems like a good guy and I think the best of Diesel is in the near future. by DAVE A on Feb 18, 2009 2:46 AM EST up reply actions like i said wrong time for riggs he’s a great fighter but not ready for shields by randy murders on Feb 18, 2009 2:57 AM EST up reply actions WTF is wrong with Sheilds? I was certain that his next fight would be in the UFC. How many fight does he have left on his contract before he becomes a free agent? I am a fan of Jake’s and he will beat Riggs…..But I dont ever want to hear Sheilds call out GSP ever again! He needs to get his ass in the UFC ASAP! by john on Feb 18, 2009 8:11 AM EST up reply actions Riggs is only 25??? It seems like he’s been around forever and he has a ton of fights under his belt. A little takedown defense will get him a huge win. by PW on Feb 18, 2009 9:17 AM EST up reply actions I agree PW. Was he like, in the UFC when he was 22 or something? That young, and he could have potentially been the UFC Welterweight Champion. My first thought was Jake is going to sub this guy easy, but then I saw a comment and remembered his shitty stand up, so if Diesel has semi-decent TDD, then look for Riggs to get a KO. by Synyster [[2009 Year of Gegard Mousasi]] on Feb 18, 2009 10:16 AM EST up reply actions U guys are missing the point here! Riggs is young, experienced and a very tough guy…Problem is that he is a Mental midget and his weak mental game is what has kept him from taking that next step. I like Riggs, but lets be real…..He isnt going to beat Jake Sheilds. Jake has beaten fighters with better TD defense than riggs! lIke Diego, Sheilds is a genius of acheiving the mount position. which is exactly how this fight will end. Jake will mount Riggs, then he will G n P away until the ref stops it, or Riggs gives up his back and gets choked out! by john on Feb 18, 2009 10:32 AM EST up reply actions What standup?? by belfort_fan on Feb 18, 2009 12:28 PM EST up reply actions His win over Semtex was far from convincing considering he had him on the ground for most of the 2 rounds before he finished him and Daley is known for his lack of sub-defense. His GnP is not devastating either so if Riggs really wants it he could pull out the W. Saying that I still got Shields by sub R2. This card is shaping up really well. Keep it up Strikeforce. No complaints here. by Ca$z on Feb 18, 2009 5:15 AM EST up reply actions Shields is one of my favorites, it will be interesting to see a few things! has his stand up improved? If not, it could be a long night. Where will he fight after this win? If he doesn’t sign with the UFC, I never want to hear him mention GSP again!!! by kevin on Feb 18, 2009 5:47 AM EST up reply actions Kevin: I said the same thing in my post above! If he doesnt sign with the UFC than keep GSP’s name out of his mouth! Anyone know how many fights left on his deal until he becomes a free agent? I think Gilbert only has a fight or 2 left! I know Alistar has 2 fights left with DREAM before he becomes a free agent! Mania, a great idea for a thread, would be to research top fighters who could possibly sign with the UFC once they become free agents, and let us know how many fights they have left on their current contracts. I think it would make for a very interesting thread, and I would love to do it, but Mania doesnt show me any love! by john on Feb 18, 2009 10:35 AM EST up reply actions I think this will be sheilds last fight before he becomes a free agent and heads over to the UFC. by john on Feb 18, 2009 11:12 AM EST up reply actions hmmm sounds interesting by mmalover on Feb 17, 2009 11:59 PM EST reply actions damn! kj turned down the fight…lol randy i encountered ur posts in the brock thread..its delusional incoherent statements.. by gaara on Feb 18, 2009 12:00 AM EST reply actions how exactly is that? because i see the real deal in brock? and i believe a person can actually get that big and cut without juicing? i already said what i had to say with good reason why i said it, you’re a fedor nuthugger that is going to say anything you can to anyone that has a different opinion about him.. his 1 punch ko on arlovski was as lucky as mir catching brock in a kneebar, fedor has never fought a man like brock because theres no other specimen on this planet built that way and i think it will resemble the gsp beating of bj penn that happens if fedor does fight brock and dont give me a line of shit bj isnt as good on the ground as fedor and that brocks not the wrestler gsp is.. because we all know different and the size difference will be MUCH greater between fedor and brock fed0r will be 240 brock will be 290 do the math by randy murders on Feb 18, 2009 1:06 AM EST up reply actions hahah! ur so funny…just read my post there..did i hurt ur feelings? hmmmm! sory..ur intentions are busted..“lucky?” “nuthugger?” “never fought like brock?” wahaha! then who did? goldberg? and yeah brock fought someone like fedor on a daily basis with the name mankind..lol by gaara on Feb 18, 2009 2:04 AM EST up reply actions you’re an idiot dude, he fought randy couture,frank mir,and heath herring for his first fights other then min soo kim.. thats one hell of a resume for a career to start.. fedor would have to take the fight with brock much more serious and train like mir did when he fought nogueira to walk through brock like people think that man at damn near 300lbs moves like a 155 and has the power of a pickup truck and since wreslting is so FAKE watch the movie “the wrestler” you’re idea of how fake it is might change as well not saying it’s not totally fake but it shows some real shit in there that would cause you to respect them dudes a little bit more it sure did me and i hate fake wrestling.. by randy murders on Feb 18, 2009 3:02 AM EST up reply actions gaara: Why bother with this clown? He said that theres no other specimen out there like brock. Yea their are and their called prof bodybuilders!!! and what do prof bodybuilders take? Come on randy, what is it? You guessed it………..Juice & hgh!!! by BOW on Feb 18, 2009 12:42 PM EST up reply actions omg randy murders i agree with you, i tried posting something like that the other day. fedor is a very small heavyweight and brock is a very large heavyweight. im not saying brock would win but he has a very good chance. id give it 70/30 in fedors favour, but still my money would be on brock :D by Jared on Feb 18, 2009 7:28 AM EST up reply actions There’s a possibility that Fedor could get murdered by Monster Lesnar. I know that size doesn’t matter, but even Gegard Mousassi[did I spell that right?] himself said that when he stands next to Fedor, he seems bigger. SO sizewise, LEsnar is already at an advantage. Strengthwise, I’d go with Lesnar too. Yeah, I know Fedor is cat-quick, but so is Lesnar. So gentlemen, and ladies, don’t ever count the monster out. He always has a chance, even against Mir. You’ll see. Mir’s so called “improved boxing” is all for naught. by SYd[a.k.a."The Negation"] on Feb 18, 2009 2:47 AM EST up reply actions I’m a huge Lesnar fan and have been a supporter since he started in UFC. I don’t think at this point he would beat Fedor, but Lesnar wouldn’t get steamrolled either. Fedor is just too good, but he would definitely haveto work for that win and would probably take some punishment in the process. by PW on Feb 18, 2009 9:20 AM EST up reply actions Yeah, Fedor would have to work for that win, but the win is inevitable! Brock is too green to fight a mistake free fight, and there isnt a fighter in the sport better at capitalizing on opponents mistakes than Fedor! 1 mistake against Fedor and its over! syd: Lesnar is quick for a heavyweight….Fedor is midleweight-like quick! There is a big difference in speed between the 2. Also Fedor is so much more accurate, and believe it or not, The Brockness Monster wont be that much stronger than Fedor! I also think that in the clinch, brock would try to take Fedor down, and Fedor could use his world class hips to counter and put Brock on his back, where he would be a fish out of water! by john on Feb 18, 2009 10:38 AM EST up reply actions the best thing about it would be watching fedor stalk the way bigger lessner, and lessner trying to be big intense Brock and fedor just looking at him like he needs a hug. by Blazy J on Feb 18, 2009 11:11 AM EST up reply actions hahahaha true that! by john on Feb 18, 2009 11:13 AM EST up reply actions JOE RIGGS WILL SMASH JAKE SHIELDS!!! by robwhiskey on Feb 18, 2009 12:02 AM EST reply actions Thanks for the heads up. I’ll alert the media. by RyanHobbs on Feb 18, 2009 12:12 AM EST up reply actions LOL! by LJ on Feb 18, 2009 12:57 PM EST up reply actions shields will not stand with this guy he’s smarter then that by randy murders on Feb 18, 2009 1:00 AM EST up reply actions It’s a shame Shields isn’t in the UFC. Would’ve liked to see him fight some real guys. Not top tier to start. Just guys like Kos, Serra, Hughes. If he’s still alive, then Fitch and Alves. But I don’t think he’d make it that far. He’s way too obvious. In his last fight you could almost hear him screaming “I’m going for the armbar now, get ready”. by ftg314 on Feb 18, 2009 12:29 AM EST reply actions He is still pouting because Dana wont give him a title shot in his first fight. by mike on Feb 18, 2009 2:04 AM EST up reply actions or it might have something to do with contracts that were bought by strikeforce from the elite xc? by randy murders on Feb 18, 2009 3:03 AM EST up reply actions thats it exactly…the guys probably hurting for cash and just wants a fight to replenish his wallet by McArthur on Feb 18, 2009 9:40 AM EST up reply actions If Shields wants to come over to the UFC, hahahah, Title shot???? Give him to Karo, or heck, even Burkman. Title shot my ass. by GodDamnMike on Feb 18, 2009 11:06 AM EST up reply actions Heres the Deal with Jake! He is starving for a shot at the UFC. HOwever he has a fight left on his contract. Instead of going to the courts, he decided to just take this fight which would end his contractual obligations and then become a free agent and sign with the UFC by john on Feb 18, 2009 11:15 AM EST up reply actions Nice one sided match up. Sheilds by choke or armbar 1st round. by El Mexicutioner, formerly The Mexicutioner on Feb 18, 2009 12:31 AM EST reply actions lol Shields could not hang with the big dogs of the UFC. Maybe lower tier UFC fighters but doubt it. by mmalover on Feb 18, 2009 12:46 AM EST reply actions Riggs is done. He was done years ago. Shields is a frigging poser calling out GSP and then taking fights against washed up bums like Riggs. He knows he’s get his ass handed to him in the UFC and he’d lose his ranking as a top welterweight. by Jeremyjackson on Feb 18, 2009 12:47 AM EST reply actions I know riggs hasn’t had the best of luck in the cage but to say a 25 year old with as much skill as he has is a washed up bum then your just an idi*t!! And sheilds at this point in his career is still one dimensional.. granted he is really good at what he does, but he cant keep beating tough guys and move up in rankings with the same attack.. Riggs by tko/ko by mike22 on Feb 18, 2009 1:26 AM EST up reply actions Where can I watch this fight? by dave on Feb 18, 2009 1:20 AM EST reply actions Not real sure but I believe it will be on Showtime. Not positive though. by BK on Feb 18, 2009 1:23 AM EST up reply actions Oh yeah, shield by submission in the 1st round. by dave on Feb 18, 2009 1:21 AM EST reply actions Shields by dave on Feb 18, 2009 1:21 AM EST reply actions I don’t care how old he is. He’s a pill-popping punk who’s looked like crap fighting in dimly-lit fringe shows against crappy opposition for the last two years. I saw him in a show in Canada a year or two ago and he looked terrible. Strikefroce didn’t give him any decent oppponents either. And this “skill” you speak of… is that the skill that got him KO’d by a one-dimensional and undersized Diego Sanchez or the skill that got him TKO’d by the ultra-feared Kazuo Misaki last year? Riggs sucks and so do you. Calling me an idiot won’t change how cold it is in your mom’s basement. by Jeremyjackson on Feb 18, 2009 1:41 AM EST reply actions The fight were he won in the fist round?? yea looked terrible. If you watched the fight with misaki, riggs was winning that fight and got dropped and the ref stoped the fight early. With diego i dont think that would happen again. He got caught. If you dont like the guy that’s one thing, but to say he has no skill is just being ignorant. And i live in sunny florida with my wife and kid. no basement dwelling mommas boy here. by mike22 on Feb 18, 2009 2:24 AM EST up reply actions Let’s get this straight, Joe Riggs popped tons of painkillers due to a bulging disc in his back that was pinching his nerves. He underwent surgery,, but still has a re-occuring back injury, he’s not always able to train or fight at his best because of it. Now if people don’t like him because they think he’s A-hole, that’s another story. If he can get past his injuries, he’s definitely got enough experience and youth on his side to become a better fighter. I’m pulling for him. by DAVE A on Feb 18, 2009 3:09 AM EST up reply actions Diego is one-dimensional? He is a top-3 fighter in whichever weight class he wants to be in. by PW on Feb 18, 2009 9:22 AM EST up reply actions Top 3!?? at 170 he is beneath Fitch, GSP, KOS, Thiago, Shields, and i think Trigg and Gono would beat him too. at 155 he can’t touch BJ, or Sherk and i definately see him losing to guys like Griffen, Aoki, Alvarez, and maybe even Edgar. Diego’s next fight win or lose should be against Clay Guida! by SoCalStunNa on Feb 18, 2009 1:45 PM EST up reply actions if riggs comes prepared and fights smart he could win.shields has awful standup, and weak take downs. riggss def. could get upset. by Bass on Feb 18, 2009 1:52 AM EST reply actions Meh, dont want to see shields fight middleweights like lawler, and there really isnt any good challenges left for him at WW outside of the UFC, so this is a pretty major disappointment. by Scott on Feb 18, 2009 1:57 AM EST reply actions First KJ pussies out again and now this… a promising looking new start for Strikeforce is quickly diminishing in radness. If they keep giving us weak matchups like this I may have to start calling them Strikefarce. by Jeremyjackson on Feb 18, 2009 2:05 AM EST reply actions i think it will be a great fight for the time it lasts, as will diaz vs shamrock who cares about kj noons anyways the guy was a dumbass and ruined his own career by randy murders on Feb 18, 2009 3:05 AM EST up reply actions wow bud, this is a pretty good card, considering its not ufc. if you want big stars on yer fight cards than god bless, but maybe you could learn to appreciate a good card with some damn good fights like a true mma fan should by Jared on Feb 18, 2009 7:31 AM EST up reply actions Shields should win this but it should be a good match. by Khaos_warrior on Feb 18, 2009 2:47 AM EST reply actions Does anyone know how many fights Jake has left on his current contract? Everyone wants him to finally fight some real WW’s. by Steve on Feb 18, 2009 3:45 AM EST reply actions Wow, in the picture, it looks like Riggs has seriously ‘roided or HGH’ed up lately. Don’t they test for drugs anymore? by TJ on Feb 18, 2009 5:08 AM EST reply actions He has to, he loses every fight. This fight is a joke! by Spyder on Feb 18, 2009 9:21 AM EST up reply actions The guy is a professional loser and probably thinks the only way he can win is to juice. Doesnt matter Jake will still turn him into a pretzel. by the spyder on Feb 18, 2009 11:15 AM EST up reply actions Pretty good 1st fight for Shields in Strikeforce. He’s supposed to fight a big name on the next card, probably on CBS. by Joseph on Feb 18, 2009 5:36 AM EST reply actions Not bad, Strikeforce’s next event is starting to take shape, and so far so good. The win against Daley was domination given Daley’s lack of a ground game, but he’s still a young fighter. As for Shields, didn’t Aoki call him out a couple months ago? by Belisarius on Feb 18, 2009 8:28 AM EST reply actions Joe Riggs is the biggest punching bag in the history of MMA. I cant believe that they would put Shields in the same ring with him, if I were Jake I would be insulted. Back in the day when Riggs lost all of his wieght he was supposed to be a badass in there, what a joke!!!! by Spyder on Feb 18, 2009 9:21 AM EST reply actions I have to agree with you guys…come to think of it, everytime I saw Riggs fight on TV he got beat. by TJ on Feb 18, 2009 9:45 AM EST reply actions I’d laugh if riggs ko’d shields in the first, calling out gsp, sign up with the ufc there first chicken shit. by nathan on Feb 18, 2009 7:36

| | » Crisis Core: Final Fantasy VII Crisis Core: Final Fantasy VII ( 152 customer reviews ) List Price: $9.99 Our Price: $9.62 & eligible for FREE Super Saver Shipping on orders over $25. You Save: $0.37 ( 3%) SKU: qb-psp-n-ffcrisiscore In Stock Usually ships in 1 business days Note: Item may be sold and shipped by another company. Learn more .... Product Details: Product Length: 7.0 inches Product Width: 4.25 inches Product Height: 0.75 inches Product Weight: 0.31 pounds Package Length: 6.9 inches Package Width: 4.1 inches Package Height: 0.6 inches Package Weight: 0.2 pounds Release Date: March 25, 2008 Average Customer Rating: based on 152: ( 152 customer reviews ) Write an online review and share your thoughts with other customers. Most Helpful Customer Reviews 99 of 101 found the following review helpful: A Great Prequel Apr 24, 2008 By G. Lindquist I can't believe I am the first after weeks of this game being released to make a review! Nonetheless, here we go. This game is amazing for a portable game. The graphics and sound are just far above what you expect when you think portable gaming and they actually tied the story to the original well too. Gameplay: The Gameplay is top notch. Not only do you explore towns, talk to NPCs and have the Final Fantasy experience you would expect, but there are also side missions that act as a quick fix incase you don't have enough time to actually focus on the story. You can play these whenever you find a save point and they serve as a nice way to get you some extra potions and experience. Interactivity is similar to what you would find in the classic game as far as finding items by exploring the environment and seeing unique sights because you were curious enough to explore every nook and cranny. There are even side missions like having professor hogo making you face huge monsters in an attempt to kill you because you disturbed him. The Story is what shines the most in this game, and it is by far one of the most engrossing stories of the series. Graphics: This game seriously looks like the first Kingdom hearts on the PS2. Their facial expressions and animations are the best you can find on a portable system to date. This game could be ported to the PS2 and considered to have gorgeous graphics. The CG scenes are on par with Advent Children. Sound: The Voice acting is actually pretty good, and the music from Final Fantasy VII that was redone for the game isn't bad either, but the new music to the game is pretty forgettable. I honestly can't stand the shinra building's theme, which feels like it is 10 seconds long and just set to loop. This is one of the game's biggest strengths and downfalls at the same time. Replay Value: You could speed through the story and still expect hours upon hours to be spent doing side missions. The story itself takes a good amount of time to beat. Expect to invest maybe 30 hours into this game. This game is a fantastic deal. Expect to have a blast with it and you wont be disappointed. SPECIAL NOTE: There are some things to this game that you might want to take into consideration. I started playing this game on my old PSP then early into it bought the new model. The difference is HUGE. The load times on the new PSP are cut not only in half, but takes the load time from up to 18 seconds at some points to maybe 3-4 tops. There is also a very low amount of blur when Zack is running around on the screen on the new one compared to the old one. The new screen is brighter, higher refresh rate and the load time on the new one is way shorter. The new PSP is almost a must for this game otherwise load times will destroy the experience. 38 of 41 found the following review helpful: Crisis Core May 05, 2008 By T. Paslay Since the other review is very lengthy, and covers pretty much everything, I'll keep this short and sweet. If you're a fan of the Final Fantasy series (particularly VII) then you should buy this game. If you don't have a PSP, this game is worth buying one for. I didn't have a PSP, this game came out, I bought a PSP to play it, I am extremely happy with my decision. I do recommend playing through Final Fantasy VII first as you will appreciate the characters, environments, and cameos a little more. If you do happen to play this first, I can almost guarantee you'll be shopping for a copy of VII when you're done. 26 of 28 found the following review helpful: Spectacular May 31, 2008 By N. Durham "Big Evil" I was never too fond of RPG's when I was younger, no matter how much I loved video games. Final Fantasy VII changed that, along with how I looked at the genre, as I, like many others, became addicted to the game's emotional storyline and well-rounded characters. Since then, we have seen a number of tie-ins, spin-offs, and even feature films based on the Final Fantasy VII universe, and now, Crisis Core has finally arrived. Crisis. Not just the cut-scenes, which themselves are beautiful and stunning, but even the in-game graphics look great, making this undoubtedly the best looking RPG to hit the PSP, and the game's voice acting is even better. The game's combat system is also worth mentioning because it isn't quite turn based, and isn't quite real time. Instead, it is a fast moving system that is quite fun in itself, even if it may come off as a bit too easy for some. Leveling up and performing Limit Breaks is now determined by the slot machine-esque DMW system, which is a fun little twist as well. There are familiar characters abound as well: Cloud, Aerith, Tifa, and of course, Sephiroth. The game's story wonderfully weaves into FFVII mythology, and offers some new perspectives on Zack and Sephiroth, and those respects alone, Crisis Core is worth picking up. All in all, Crisis Core: Final Fantasy VII is a stunning achievement that is an absolute essential addition to your PSP library, and needless to say, if you love everything Final Fantasy VII and you own a PSP, you have to pick up Crisis Core. 12 of 13 found the following review helpful: Critical review, includes the good and the bad Sep 07, 2008 By Dan First off I will just say I loved the game, but there are a few areas I'm going to note on in my review that could have used a bit of work. So don't think this is any sort of hate-bashing review, because it isn't. First I will cover the scales. 1 is the worst, 10 is the best Story: 10 - Accurate and informative. Takes you back and reveals the FF7 history Battle System: 6 - I will explain this in detail below as to why it is a 6 Game Mechanics: 8 - Decent convenience factors added such as stores and missions from the main menu Replay Value: 5 to 8, situational based - Will explain below Graphics & Visuals: 10 - Top notch for a hand held Game flow: 8 - This is how often you actually get to play the game without being interrupted by cut scenes or movies Mini-games: 7 - Some are enjoyable, others are very tedious after a while Over-all: 8.5 - Extremely enjoyable, has a few faults, but none detract too much from the overall enjoyment. ------- Further Explanations of above noted sections, note these are going to be the faults I found, that doesn't mean this game is bad, it just means it has these faults as any game has a few: Battle system- You may be asking why I rated this so low, well... while the non turn-based elements that they incorporated into this game are good in theory, in practice they are a bit cumbersome in places. The first place they missed a bit here, was the DMW system. Now you might be thinking, "Yes, I have read about how people don't like the system". The problem is, it is not that I don't like the system, I just think that they could have polished a few elements with it. I will name these polish points as "smudges". First smudge - 'phase modulations', you will on countless occasions run into a situation where you are JUST about to finish off the last monster and end a battle when you get forced into one of these phase modulations. Sure it's cool the first few times to finish off the monster with a cool attack, but after this happens 20+ times it will start to irritate you because you just want to kill that last monster and move on. A lot of the times when this happens you will get either a useless result out of it, No result, or a longer attack that finishes off the monster but was a waste of time since you were just about to deal the killing blow with your sword. The useless result factor comes into play when you get a buff to an element that was already maxed/buffed before the phase modulation. They also on occasion added flashing images while the DMW is spinning the middle image. These images cannot be bypassed after seeing them a first time, which wastes even more of your time. This also leads into my next area to cover. Smudge two, Phase Modulation Attacks - Aside from not being able to skip the aforementioned images the attacks that come from the DMW also cannot be skipped. The summon attacks you get can be skipped, however only certain ones. Why SE (Square-enix) chose to punish the player like this by making them watch the same attacks over and over without the option to bypass them after the first few times is beyond me. It just adds even more wasted time to what could have otherwise been a good idea, if only they added an option to skip these after the first time it would have been MUCH better. Do you as a player honestly -WANT- to sit through the same 5-10sec long attack sequence over 50 times throughout the game? I didn't either. You can also land a 'late' phase modulation attack which will occur after you've killed all the monsters. That means you will have to watch the sequence anyway, even after the battle should have ended. That is it for the things that could have been fixed with the DMW, the next aspect that didn't seem to work quite as well as it could have, would be the pace of the battles being too fast to actually execute needed commands. You will be left running and dodging just so you can use a healing item, or curative spell. It isn't hard to scroll over to items or a spell, but with the speed of the battles and the constant attacks coming from the monsters it makes it very difficult to pull off. Far more difficult that it needs to be. This adds to the 'cumbersome' factor that I mentioned above. Replay Value elements mentioned above: This game has replay value, that I won't deny, however depending on how you played the first time through it could either have great replay value, or almost none at all. If you went through the game the first time just to see the story and play the game casually then the second play-through with the New Game+ will be enjoyable. However, if you spent time getting levels, powerful items, and doing all the missions then your second play through will be so easy that most replay value will be taken out. The only remaining value at that point would be to watch the story a second time. While this is enjoyable the rest of the game will have almost all of the challenge removed. I don't recommend a New Game+ if you went through and made your character a powerhouse. If you fit this category then you will get more replay value if you simply start the game over from scratch. Finally, I am going to cover missions. Since this is one of the major side-quests/mini-games in CC. This is also why that section only received a 7. Mission, these were a GREAT idea, HOWEVER, poorly implemented. Why do I feel these were poorly implemented? I feel SE wasted far too much time working on the quantity of missions, but didn't spend as much time working on their quality. As you play through them you will notice there are only about 10-15 maps total that get recycled over and over again in different ways. There are some places where dialogue is also recycled. However there are very few missions where you actually get dialogue, and only one mission where you get dialogue scenes in every sub-mission. The lack of dialogue adds to the fact that they didn't have any real storyline added to the missions. It was pretty much just: Accept mission, collect items in a recycled map, find and fight mission objective boss/monsters, rinse and repeat. After the first 150 or so missions of doing exactly what I just mentioned it will get painfully tedious. All tedium could have been removed had they just cut the missions in half, to say 150, and used the rest of the time adding quality to them. In other words, adding storyline or making a larger selection of maps. Personally I don't care if they recycled the maps, but I wish they added some sort of storyline to missions so that they weren't just the same exact thing repeated over and over again x300. In fact, after the 153rd or so mission I started to get more enjoyment out of reading the Shinra briefs you get when selecting the mission than doing the missions themselves. ----- Phew! Now with all of that out of the way (Sorry I am long winded) I'll get to the actual review since I covered a lot of things above this might be shorter than the above areas. CC, being the prequel to the very famous FF7 delivers what I consider to be a KO punch as a game. The storyline does not disappoint you, if you were playing this game in hopes to learn what happened before FF7 then you will not be disappointed. The flow of the story I felt was very smooth and well organized. From the development of bonds such as you will see Cloud and Zack form, to Sephiroth's descent into insanity. All of this in recognizable locations from FF7 that have been redone in stunningly beautiful graphics. The game starts out right away grabbing you firmly with a great action movie sequence done in what can only be described as PS3 quality graphics. I was shocked at just how detailed and realistic this was for a hand-held system. The real-time graphics (what you see when you are running around fighting, etc) are not as high quality as the movie sequences, but they are still amazing. The movies give the graphics a 10, while the real-time graphics get an 8. They are still visually amazing for a hand-held system. CC has also added something new to familiar elements such as materia. They have added what they call a materia fusion system. While I found this system to be a bit more confusing that it needs to be you can easily find information about it online and it adds a bit of an interesting twist and gives you something to work toward in strengthening a certain materia with specific stats. If you just wish to experiment it will provide plenty of that. However if you plan to seriously work on it then I'd highly suggest reading up on it because it is very difficult to figure some things out on your own. Phoenix downs in this game have also received a slight change in functionality. Since you are the only one that will be fighting monsters and bosses instead of using it on a fallen comrade you either use it on yourself during battle, or out of battle. What this then does is give you a buff called "raise" that does not go away until you die. When you die this buff instantly revives you with full HP. Very helpful for certain bosses, what this basically means is, if you have enough phoenix downs you can survive indefinitely as long as you always keep one active on yourself. The battle system, as mentioned above, goes off of the new DMW system. Which is something like a slot machine. Most of which consists of random results and overall not one of the most enjoyable aspects of the game. Adds a bit too much of a clunky and at times very interrupting element to the game. It is also incorporated into how you level up. Now, while I was not overly thrilled with how you level up in this game, I've learned that it is far from random. The level up system goes based off of what would seem like random DMW spins, but there is still hidden EXP that comes into play. When you get a certain amount of EXP over what you need for your level the DMW will have a 100% chance to hit the level up spin. This was confirmed when I was cursed and fought for about an hour, then after the curse wore off leveled up 5 times in a row. I didn't much care for the "Activating Combat Mode" and "Conflict Resolved" messages before and after every battle. Had they given you the option to enable or disable these then it would have been alright. The problem here is that after these messages happen for the 500th time they will start to either get stuck in your head, give you a headache, or just become -really- irritating. CC brings back an old element that you might have seen in other games you may have played. The ability to break the traditional 9999 values that we've been accustomed to, with the use of special accessories and materia fusion. With the right items you can get your HP to 99,999, and your MP and AP to 9999. Furthermore you have the ability to do upwards of 99,999 damage with a single attack. It all depends on what you have equipped and what abilities you use. In CC you get two combat bars other than your HP. The other two would be your MP, and your AP. MP should be self-explanatory, it is used to cast magic spells. Your AP is used for special attack materia, one such example is an attack materia that has you spin in a circle and attack all enemies around you in a 360 degree strike. There are many many other different types of attack materia that do all sorts of things, but you'll have to find out for yourself. The musical score in this game has been mixed up a bit. There is old and recognizable themes, some that have been revamped, and others that have not been. This is mixed with a all new musical score that personally I found to be enjoyable. I am one for nostalgia, so I personally would have liked to see more of the old FF7 music in this game, but that's just me. So what this all boils down to is a very solid game, it has a few places where it could have been improved upon, some places where painful tedium could have been removed, and a few irritating elements that could have either been redone, or completely removed. However no game is going to be perfect in every aspect, this one makes up for the few issues with a compelling and immersive storyline, an overall nostalgic feel, high quality and breath-taking graphics, and a cast of enjoyable characters, new and old. I highly recommend this to anyone, as it is one of the best games for the PSP. 9 of 10 found the following review helpful: Just barely short of perfect! Jul 18, 2008 By Chris Swanson "I'm just this guy, you know?" Ah, the Final Fantasy series. Who can forget fine games like Final Fantasy VI, Final Fantasy X and Final Fantasy XII? Of course no one can forget Final Fantasy VII. This is largely because Square-Enix won't let us forget it. We have games like "Before Crisis" and Final Fantasy VII: Dirge of Cerberus, and of course the incredibly well-done movie Final Fantasy VII - Advent Children (Limited Edition Collector's Set) (go find my review of it and vote it helpful! Please? I'll be your friend! ^_^ ). Now into this fray of Final Fantasy fantasticness, we have "Crisis Core: Final Fantasy VII". Now, I never played "Before Crisis" (though neither did anyone else), and I haven't played "Dirge of Cerberus" either, so I can't compare this to those. What I can do is say that this is one hellishly good game! The graphics are amazing. The music reminds one of the music from the original game without directly copying it (except for in a few places). The plot, at least so far, is compelling and interesting. Further the game really opens up the world we were introduced to way back in 1997. The game isn't perfect. I still haven't found away to remove the annoying subtitles, and I do have to join in the complaints about how all you really have to do to win is press "X" a lot. Plus having the DMW screen pop up every few moments gets old. I'm also really sick of "Active Combat mode activated" message you get when you go into, well, active combat mode. That said, this is, without a doubt, one of the finest games on the PSP, joined in competition only by God of War Chains of Olympus (which I also enjoyed). It's probably one of the best RPGs I've ever played. Overall, if you like good action, great graphics, nice music and a plot you can chew your way through, then buy this game! If you don't like those things, well, heck, why would you buy ANY Final Fantasy game? :) See all 152 customer reviews on Amazon.com Recently Viewed CTR: Crash Team Racing $79.99 Crash Tag Team Racing $13.95 Crash Bandicoot 3: Warped $67.94 Shipping Returns Frequently Asked Questions

Highjacked by Michael: My New Favorite Sport! July 31, 2008 by devlinoneill Posted in Uncategorized | 133 Comments 133 Nice choice of sport, Michael. I’ve played both beach and indoor volleyball and I know that moving around in all that sand is a lot more work. It’s like playing with a “handicap”. Someone I know said he thought female volleyball players had the best bottoms — from all the exercise no doubt. And of course, the costumes make a strong case for the “less is more” philosophy. Yes, running in sand is one of the toughest workouts. My football couch in high school used to make us do that. Rocky Pope, one tough S.O.B. Even his name was tough. Okay. *FINE*. See if I care. I take one night off to attend a Going Away Party … and I come home to find I’ve been bumped out of my CEO, Executive Chief Chairman Visual Princess job?!! What the HECK? I was only gone for a few hours, Michael, and you whipped up THIS? Jeeze. You know you’ve just raised the bar a few feet, don’t you? How am I supposed to top this one? It’s excellent. Excellent post and excellent pictures. All over excellent. You centered the photos and *everything.* Man, you’re GOOD. xoxo P.S. The football couch’s are tough! Way tougher than the football sofas or ottomans! (LOL! I’d go in and correct your typo, Michael, if a little brat we know and love hadn’t made an issue of it. *G* ) But maybe he’ll take it easy on you, Princess, since you did say some nice things about his post, all completely true and verified by the evidence. Great job, Michael! And I have GOT to get out to Huntington Beach before the season’s over. -Dev Michael, Great post even though I believe Kristina and I would make a smashing team!! cj On my way home today see you from the Southeast this weekend! Congratulations, Michael, I see Chross has listed your story of how you spanked your wife’s sister among his "spankings of the week". Yay, Michael! Although of course this means ANOTHER of your highjacks that gets more hits than my rambles. Harumph! *G* And CJ, I have to believe your assertion to be true – you teamed with Kristina would be ‘smashing’ … windows, the patio furniture, my patience … (Fly home safely and don’t brat the flight attendant even if he is cute. *G*) -Dev Thanks for the nice words, Gwen, and no, you’re not bumped out of anything, least of all your visual graphics post. I still need your help as only you can find those smokin’ hot spanking pictures. Belive me, I’ve looked but I can never discover the gold nuggets you always unearth. And as for setting the bar high, you and Dev have far surpassed this many times with your posts, and will continue to do so. Oh, and smoothly done the way you praised me in one comment then brought me back down to earth in the next by oh so genteelly pointing out my typo. I hardly felt the knife enter at all. Now, young lady, about that adolescent tone you adopted when you said: “*FINE* See if I care.” You know how pouty tantrums are dealt with around here, right? I’ll leave your Uncle D to handle this, as I am sure you’ll be summoned to his office very soon. I’ll leave a pillow at your desk. *G* Thanks, Karl, thanks, Dev. That is cool about Chross. cj, glad you liked the post. And I can’t add a thing to what Dev said about you and Kristina, and your *smashing* personalities. *G* Safe fight home. “Safe fight home.” Hey, Michael. Sigmund Freud called – he wants his slip back. *G* Yeah, I’m having a rough couple of days. I hate when my slip shows. “And I have GOT to get out to Huntington Beach before the season’s over.” Thought I saw you on television at the match, D. The camera glimpsed a man in a trench coat and sunglasses skulking under the stands and I could have sworn it was you, especially since he was holding a box of tissues. Couldn’t see what he was doing with his other hand. *G* Hey! Be nice or I won’t tell everybody we got 3513 hits today, a new one-day record. “And CJ, I have to believe your assertion to be true – you teamed with Kristina would be ’smashing’ … windows, the patio furniture, my patience ” Yeah Dev but that would be after we won on the sand!! cj “we got 3513 hits today” Congratulations!!:) cj “Hey! Be nice or I won’t tell everybody we got 3513 hits today, a new one-day record.” Me? D, I’m nice. I’m the sweetest guy around. And the operative word in your statement above is “we” because none of this fun would be possible without you, Dev, Gwen and especially the wonderful readers and commentators. You are all very special people. ‘we got 3513 hits today’ 3513 hits??? Okay, now I’m *certain* that Michael is the new EVP Graphics Princess, there’s no question. I’m going to relinquish my crown at midnight. No. Wait. I always keep the jewelry. … Michael, the title is yours but I get to keep the bling, ok? - Of course you keep the bling, Gwen, as well as the job and the title. I was lucky is all. You are the true Princess. Welcome, Ivana! Always good to hear new voices here, and I see you’ve made several comments to other items. Much appreciated! And of course we’re all about democracy, and equal time, and fairness at this blog. (Oh hush, Gwen, I did too keep a straight face when I wrote that!) -Dev “Oh hush, Gwen, I did too keep a straight face when I wrote that!)” Hey Gwen since the Prof only told you to hush I will say it for you… “SURE YOU DID?!” cj Welcome Ivana! Can always use more help around here keeping the tops fair! cj ‘I will say it for you…’ Thanks CJ! Yeah, Uncle D., what CJ said! Can’t say that I approve of the cheeky way cj put it or of the way G so enthusiastically jumped into the impertinence pool with her – are you gals wearing string bikinis?- but, D, I think you WERE snickering a bit. *G* Welcome, Ivana! So glad you found us, and that you appreciate the photos of the mimbos, er… men. I always take care of the needs of the women here on the blog. “Can’t say that I approve of the cheeky way cj put it…” Well at least you agree with the sentiment you know he was not “straight faced”. Plus Michael would you expect anything else from me? cj cj, I agree that Devlin’s face was anything but straight when he uttered those words, and I wouldn’t expect anything except bratitude from you, but surely you know the Professor will be summoning you to his office soon for a lecture and *more.* Yes Michael I seem to have a speed dial from him with a “CJ Office Now!” message pre-recorded. cj I detect a distressing lack of faith in my veracity here lately, from both sides of the gender divide, but I’ll go on record now as saying I can’t possibly ‘snicker’ with my tongue firmly planted in my cheek. So there. *G* -Dev “So there.” Hmmm now I know if that came from one of us Girls we would be in soooooooooooooo much trouble… hee hee cj ‘tongue firmly planted’ (somewhere i am sure) cheeky monkey!! welcome Ivana! cj – i think i was summoned to two offices this weekend – a new record! Kristina, Congratulations!! Maybe you can make it 3? cj lol -no i don’t think so, i am going to go back to being good for a while! Ahhhhhhh ok Kristina *big sigh* Just out of curiosity what is your definition of “a while”? cj Or “good” for that matter. *G* hahaha – by good i mean well behaved and polite manners of course (as i usually am!) and a while….well….at least a few days, maybe a week or two??? it is possible! “cheeky monkey!!” Uh huh … “well behaved and polite …” (And just BTW, how many decades has it been since Mike Myers did that schtick on SNL? *G*) Oh right, right! That brattish comment came BEFORE you saw the light, huh, Kristina? So these summonses to the office have been effective then? Who else has been calling you on the carpet? Or should I ask? Okay, I won’t. But just remember to shun evil companions during this good-girl phase, such as one who would compare my perfectly mature ‘So there’ coda to her own girlish bratitude – CJ! The very idea! (Hope you got home safely from your trip. And remember to set your alarm on Monday. 9 am. My office. Do NOT forget to wear panties. *G*) Hugs to you both, Dev thx goodness for ESPN2. “shun evil companions during this good-girl phase” Ahhhhhh geeeeesssshhhh I would not pull Kristina into the under-brat-world if she does not want too. You know us brats of a code of honor also. Prof. Dev would that be 9 am your time? That would fit my schedule better it would be my lunch break and that panties thing honest I would never report to you without them! Respectfully “the evil companion”, cj lol – a brat code of honor! perfect! ps – i have brazil-butt envy! i forgot to mention that earlier. “i have brazil-butt envy!” I kinda feel the same way about the six-packs the guys are sporting. Wonder if I can find one of those Abdominizer thingies they used to sell on TV. And yes, CJ, I realize there is honor among brats, and I would have it no other way. Just remember that brats who friend together, bend together. (!) -Dev “…speed dial from him with a “CJ Office Now!” message pre-recorded.” cj, you know besides speed dial Devlin also has a speed paddle. He keeps it in a quick-draw holster on his hip and can draw it quick as a whip – pun intended – and paddle naughty brats. Are there any other kind of brats? Very similar to the paddles the guards carry on their belts in his wonderful Sci-Fi novel ‘Corporal Idaho.’ He likes the holster and the whole gunfighter mystique, especially since he has roots in Texas. He also has that Clint Eastwood squint going for him. Just like Clint, you know you’re in deep trouble when D sears you with those laser beam eyes. Kristina, cj, brat code of honor?! This sounds like trouble. Is that anything like Organized Crime’s ‘Omerta,’ the code of silence? Does that mean one will take the blame for the other instead of snitching? Sort of throw yourself on the spanking hand grenade to save your fellow brat. And, Kristina, it does seem like you’re being called into a lot of offices this week, so to give your tushy a rest it is a sound idea if you try to be behave, tough as that may be. Plus, I would like to meet this fabled good girl you talk about. I think she may be more like the Loch Ness Monster or Big Foot; often rumored but never proven. *G* Dave, so good to see you. Yeah, ESPN2 rocks! Don’t forget, football kicks off it’s exhibition season tonight with the Hall of Fame game. Regular season starts in about a month. WOO HOO! “Just remember that brats who friend together, bend together.” Yes Prof. Dev cj “Kristina, cj, brat code of honor?! This sounds like trouble.” Now Michael why does a code of honor sound like trouble to you? Hmmm I might have to purchase “Colorado Idaho” with a couple more of the maids series next! Except for one thing I got in trouble twice for reading Dev’s novels after curfew while I was in Germany. I tried to explain how good they were! cj It sounds like trouble, cj, because it involves you and Kristina. Anything involving that much bratitide can only lead to trouble. ‘Corporal Idaho’ is well worth the investment, cj, you’ll really enjoy it, and it’s quite a change from Dev’s ‘A Maid For All Seasons’ series, especially if you like Sci-Fi. Not surprised you got into trouble for breaking curfew, but if it wasn’t for that it would have been something else, this way you got to read D’s books. So it seems Lisa Carlson wasn’t the only one sporting a red ouchie bottom. *G* Well you know I love Sci-fi so ‘Colorado Idaho’ will definitely be on the order form! Now as to something else getting me in trouble while I was in Germany, you are right but Dev’s books were so good!! cj ‘Colorado Idaho’ You can order that, cj, but it won’t be by Dev. Ok you will have to forgive the typing today Michael.. ‘Corporal Idaho’ geeeessssshhhhh I will be more careful in the future cj Sorry Dev and Michael ‘Does that mean one will take the blame for the other instead of snitching?’ hmmm….from what i have observed, a brat code of honor may be a little different from a code of silence… we give each other an alibi, laugh at each others toppy jokes, admire any new (hidden) shopping acquisitions and in general try and keep each other out of trouble…….in general…. but in our hearts we know what every brat wants, and sometimes she just needs a little help from a friend michael – just because my ‘good girl’ is not always around, does not mean she does not exist! *wink* Kristina, Very well said!! Cheers to the Brat Code!! cj Geez, I go away to Chicago for Crimson Moon’s Summer Spanktacular, and Michael puts up a killer post while I’m gone! That’s it–I can no longer go on vacation for fear of missing something here….. Well done, Michael! Fantastic post and pictures….. Dr. Ken Welcome back, Dr Ken. Did you have a blast? How’s the hand? “Ok you will have to forgive the typing today Michael.. ‘Corporal Idaho’ geeeessssshhhhh I will be more careful in the future” cj, I’m not making fun of your typing. Believe me, I’m the very last person in the world who could do that as you’ve seen my numerous hypos, I mean typos, spread throughout the blog, all of which Gwen and Dev are all too happy to point out to the world. Just that Devlin has put his blood and sweat into his work and it’s a shame if the title is wrong. He and I know it wasn’t done purposely, but when you add a second state to the title I must tweak you a little by pointing it out. Kristina, by revealing details of the brat code does that not violate it? What sort of punishment does that entail? And what are these “toppy jokes?” Like why did the Top cross the road? To spank the brat on the other side. Or, how many Tops does it take to screw in a light bulb? Two, one to hold the ladder steady from the vibrations caused by the second Top spanking the brat as she screws in the bulb. Lastly, as for the existence of ‘good girl’ Kristina, I guess it’s like Santa Claus, I must take it on faith. *G* “Cheers to the Brat Code!!” Yes, cj, cheers to the brat code. Three swats for you. No, let’s make that an even three dozen. *G* Thanks for the nice words, Dr. Ken, but NEVER miss a CM party! Can’t wait to read about your adventures. And as Gwen says, you better ice down your hand, as well as some other parts of your anatomy. Michael, “Three swats for you. No, let’s make that an even three dozen. *G*” I am thinking that there must be some type of ‘Top Math’ that 3 turns into 3 dozen. “… by revealing details of the brat code does that not violate it?” Nope Michael that is what is great about a brat code violations are expected! As far as the ‘Top Jokes’ are concerned I believe that only us brats really appreciate such humor. cj Oh shoot I forgot… Michael you were absolutely positively right in correcting my error on the title of Dev’s book! I definitely deserved the tweak! I guess the jet lag caught up with me. Dev my sincerest apologies for messing up your title not once but twice! btw the title is “Corporal Idaho” cj Glad you like my calculus, cj. Along with the three dozen I’ll give you ONE pillow for afterwards. DUH! I should have realized brat code violations are expected. Yeah, jet lag sucks. Hope you’re all caught up now. One pillow?? How generous lol Yeah I am feeling much better today! cj One VERY fluffy pillow, cj, but if your tush is too sore to sit I could always stand you in the corner facing the wall. It wouldn’t be any trouble at all. No, really, it wouldn’t. Glad you’re feeling better, though that only means more energy for you to channel into bratitude. *G* lol – violations are key! thanks cj! i would tell some toppy jokes but I am being good….for now! *big kisses* *gulp* Michael now that I think of it that One fluffy pillow would be very nice. Thank you for the generous offer of the corner time, but I think I will accept your first very gracious offer of the pillow. *wheeeeew I hate corner time* “Glad you’re feeling better, though that only means more energy for you to channel into bratitude. *G*” Thanks for the idea Michael…lol You are very welcome Kristina! I have to protect my “good for now” friend in Bratitude! cj So this is good girl Kristina I’ve heard so much about. Somehow I don’t think she’ll be sticking around too long. The temptations are just too great, and the results of bratitude so satisfying. *G* Okay, cj, if you’re sure, but remember I always have a corner reserved just for you. A corner for Kristina too, once her good girl persona fades and she rejoins her partner in bratitude. *G* “Okay, cj, if you’re sure, but remember I always have a corner reserved just for you.” Thanks Michael but if it is all the same with you I would like to rent out that corner to other more needy folks. You know like a timeshare of sorts and I think that it will be so busy that I would not be able to use such a space. cj Geeze Louise! 67 comments. Well, 68 now. I think THAT’S a record. What were we talking about? Oh yeah. CJ prefers feathery fundament soothers; Kristina is being a good girl (as if!); Dr. Ken is dangling his Crimson Moon memoirs like juicy carrots before us; and the Brat Code is alive and well, and living in a condo in Bayonne. And oh yes – “Corporal Idaho.” How on EARTH did you come up with “Colorado Idaho,” CJ? I know everyone ‘back east’ considers all western states more or less the same – when I lived in Idaho everyone east of the Mississippi asked me how things were in Iowa – but that really IS too much … Only not for the reason you think, CJ. Colorado figures significantly in the final chapter of “Corporal Idaho,” something you can’t have known when you made the error, since you’ve yet to read the book. But just so you know, the “Corporal” in the title refers not only to corporal punishment, but is also a play on the “private Idaho” so many stressed out Californians dream of for some day, and also part of a song title, or so I’m told. And yeah, corporal is the rank just above private. Anyway, no harm, no foul, apology accepted – so long as you put the book on your to-do list. You’ll like the hero. He’s Tom Paris as played by Humphrey Bogart’s rendition of Sam Spade channeling Devlin O’Neill. Deal with it. And thanks for the plug, guys.*G* -Dev Gwen–The hand is fine. Why? What have you been up to, young lady? I must admit, there was a moment during the very last spanking I gave that weekend where my arm felt a tad fatigued. I changed up the rhythm and that enabled me to end the session with some very satisfactory swats… Michael–there were a few moments where I definitely kept my hand wrapped around a cold and well-iced soft drink. But why would I need ice applied anywhere else? Dr. Ken ‘Gwen–The hand is fine. Why? What have you been up to, young lady?’ LOL, no need for suspicions, Dr. Ken, I was only asking because I know those parties are tough on the Spankers’ hands, that’s all. Just call me curious. xoxo “…the Brat Code is alive and well, and living in a condo in Bayonne. ” Dev, I live in New Jersey and will venture to Bayonne to do battle with this brat code first hand instead of through its disciples cj and Kristina. cj, no need for time sharing a corner, between Dev and I we have plenty of corners to go around. No brat will go without as long D and I are on God’s green earth. *G* “…my hand wrapped around a cold and well-iced soft drink…” Dr. Ken, you’re killing me with straight lines like this! “Dev, I live in New Jersey and will venture to Bayonne to do battle with this brat code first hand instead of through its disciples cj and Kristina. ” Kristina since Dev and Michael seem to be visiting Bayonne, how about we disciples launch our own attack here? “No brat will go without as long D and I are on God’s green earth.” Wheeeewwww I am safe since I am living in a drought area no green around here! cj I have no idea where Bayonne is, but as long as they are there – i agree that we should have fun here! (very logical cj!) ready for a top joke?? – you may have heard it ….. A Top (who shall remain unnamed) was driving home after a book signing and got caught in a really bad hailstorm. His car was covered with dents, so the next day he took it to a repair shop. The brat shop owner saw that he was a Top, so she decided to have some fun. She told him just to go home and blow into the tail pipe really hard, and all the dents would pop out. So, the Top went home, got down on his hands and knees and started blowing into his tail pipe. Nothing happened. He blew a little harder, and still nothing happened. His brother, another (anonymous) Top, came over and said, “What are you doing?” The first Top told him how the repairbrat had instructed him to blow into the tail pipe in order to get all the dents to pop out. The brother rolled his eyes and said, “Uh, hello! You need to roll up the windows first.” (hehehe) Kristina ROFLMAO!! That Kristina was one fantastic Top joke!! Maybe next time it will be a dual exhaust car and they both need to blow! cj lol – thanks cj! this is one of my favourites! Kristina, Do you think it might be possible to get a hold of all of Michael and Dev’s leather sole shoes that they are so proud of and re-sew them back into their natural state as poor little Italian cows? cj if you can somehow gather the leather – i can sew them together!! we may not be able to make an italian cow – but maybe we can make capes and masks! No problem Kristina… CJ sneaks in to Dev’s and Michael’s houses and gathers all the leather soles and delivers them to Kristina. Here you go. Do you need any help? [...] wear as little as possible. When the Brazilian women’s team plays, expect to see mainstream sports blogs everywhere go ga-ga with photos of the sextpots from [...] LOL. Oh BOY. Check out #79. An Olympics-related site linked to Michael’s post: ‘….’ They’re calling us ‘a mainstream SPORTS BLOG’ now. I’m telling, Michael! Uncle D. won’t be too pleased when he finds out you’ve turned us into a SPORTS blog!! xoxo Gwen thanks for the tip….very nice photos! “I’m telling, Michael! Uncle D. won’t be too pleased when he finds out you’ve turned us into a SPORTS blog!!” LOL seems Michael that Gwen is trying to get you in trouble. Now there is a switch. cj That’s just one of 6 or 8 ping backs we’ve had from sports news sites and blogs since Michael posted this, and really I don’t mind. I can’t think of any sport I’d rather be known for than Nearly Naked Girls’ Volleyball, except maybe Full Contact Nude Co-Ed Frisbee, with Spanking Penalties for Missed Catches and Poor Tosses by Girls. And speaking of penalties, CJ and Kristina, burglary, especially of spanking implements, carries some fairly severe ones. As to that hail damage you mentioned, Kristina, I’m pretty sure my auto insurance will pay for repair by a REPUTABLE body shop. Does your medical policy cover 3rd degree paddle rash to your IMPERTINENT HEINIE? -Dev That is funny to get all those ping backs from sports news and blog sites. Would love to see their reactions to this blog. Dev, when does “Full Contact Nude Co-Ed Frisbee, with Spanking Penalties for Missed Catches and Poor Tosses by Girls” season start? “…seems Michael that Gwen is trying to get you in trouble. Now there is a switch.” cj, I NEVER try to get Gwen into trouble. Just like you and Kristina, she takes care of that all on her own. Like today when Gwen told her Uncle D about us becoming a sports blog he didn’t mind, but I bet he will have a *talk* with her about how naughty it is for girls to tattle. An ouchy talk. *G* Breaking and Entering, and to filch my prized shoe soles, no less! Very naughty, cj! Receiving stolen property and ruining my leather soles! VERY VERY naughty, Kristina! Dev and I want those leather soles returned IMMEDIATELY, and in pristine condition. You will both feel our wrath as we take turns using each sole on your impudent bare bottoms. Girls, don’t expect to be sitting too confortably for the next few days. *G* Kristina, I don’t think that story was very funny. After I rolled up the windows I burned my lips on the tailpipe. pssssssttt Kristina I am thinking Michael and Dev have returned from fighting the founders of our brat code. Apparently they did not do so well because they seem to be a tad bit irritable. cj cj, we never made the trip as we couldn’t be away and let you and Kristina run amok. You can see how well that turned out. Even a small amount of unsupervised time gets you both into a LARGE amount of trouble. Brats. *sigh* Michael, “Even a small amount of unsupervised time gets you both into a LARGE amount of trouble. Brats.” Who us? I mean we were just doing a bit of spring cleaning for you and Dev and recycling for a greener earth. cj ‘ a tad bit irritable’ – lol, i see that cj (ouchies!!) my joke theoretically could have been about anyone! sheesh and michael….about your soles….. i kind of already made them into a batman cape….along with some of the straps cj brought me…… (backing slowly out the office door) ps. i kind of like the mens diving outfits over the mens beach volleyball outfits…. oh my! I’m not certain how I missed the Soled Batman Cape conversation earlier, but I did … and I just reread these comments … you girls are *very* funny. NAUGHTY – but *very funny*. xoxo lol – thanks gwen! (i may have a few left over if you want a catwoman cape??) Man, those Brazilian girls photos are amazing, aren’t they? Brazilian ladies are the best! (Just trying to nudge the conversation back on-topic. Probably futile, I know….) Dr. Ken Gwen thank you for the compliment coming from you that means a lot… we were just trying to have a bit of fun lol Dr. Ken, “(Just trying to nudge the conversation back on-topic. Probably futile, I know….)” Yep ‘Resistance is futile!’ when the brat code is in full force cj But one has to wonder, speaking of half-naked bottomed Brazilian ladies playing beach volleyball, if that’s where the blog “Sand In Your Panties” got its title. Well SOMEbody has to wonder such things! -Dev Dev wrote:”But one has to wonder, speaking of half-naked bottomed Brazilian ladies playing beach volleyball, if that’s where the blog “Sand In Your Panties” got its title. Well SOMEbody has to wonder such things! -Dev” Just keep thinkin, Butch. That’s what you’re good at….. Dr. Ken “…for a greener earth.” cj, and for a redder bottom for you and Kristina. *G* “…some of the straps cj brought me……” Thanks for the use of the straps, Kristina, they will be used by Dev, Dr. Ken and I to give you and cj those redder bottoms I mentioned above. *G* C’mon, Gwen, keep up. Kristina and cj need all the suport in bratitude they can get. *G* Quite agree, Dr. Ken, we should get back on-TOPic of those Brazilian girls. Yes, Dev, and no surprise that SOMEBODY was you wondering about sand in the Brazilian girl’s panties. “Yes, Dev, and no surprise that SOMEBODY was you wondering about sand in the Brazilian girl’s panties.” Now we all know that he was really wondering about the perfect way to spank all that sand out of the girl’s panties! cj cl, spanking is the ONLY way to remove sand from a girl’s panties. I find the best way is in the diaper positon with me holding her legs pointing towards her head with one hand while I swat her tush with the other hand. Of course her panties don’t stay on too long. *G* Michael–not a big fan of the “diaper position”, but hey–if it gets the sand out……I’ll try it with the next Brazilian girl I see…. I probably should wait until I’m at an actual beach, I suppose… Dr. Ken, doing his best to help get this post to 100 comments….. Ok, couldn’t resist…….this is 100……… Someonce call Guinness….or call for some Guinness (even better!) Dr. Ken 100 comments, that is cool, Dr. Ken. Thanks for being the 100th, it’s an honor. Yes, let’s open some bottles of Guiness. BRILLIANT! Good idea, Doc, about waiting to be on the beach before checking any Brazilian babe’s panties for sand. May stay out of trouble that way, and hopefully prison. someone should get 100 smacks to commemorate this occasion….. …hmmmmm…….now where did cj go?? (just kidding cj ) OHHHHHHHHHHHHH thanks my pardner in brattitude! The only reason I am upset is I did not think about doing that to you LOL Brats Rule! Cheers to the CODE cj Michael–very good point. Brazilian women = Spankable Fun. Brazilian Prison = Not. -Dr. Ken Wonderful idea, Kristina! Don’t worry, cj, since you were nominated by Kristina you will get the first 50 smacks, and to give proper due to such a great idea Kristina will get the next 50 smacks. Oh, what the hell, 100 smacks for you both, and before either of you say it, yes, that is Top math at its finest. Yes, Dr. Ken, Brazilian Prison = Not, and a whole lot worse. Cool and funny photos you’ve got there. Beach volleyball is one of the sports played in the Olympics too, well let’s see if the team USA can still grab a gold there. Gold, shmold … we just want to see them grab each other’s buns. *G* Okay, okay, medals are good too. Let’s see – 100 comments, 200 smacks, mutual brattish betrayal, Toppy math, deciphering the Brat Code, a real live comment from a vanilla sports site, and did someone mention Guinness? What’s next on this thread? Input from a Bratzilian … um … Brazilian prison warden? -Dev ‘Input from a Bratzilian … um … Brazilian prison warden?’ Ummm, how about we go with a Seventh Day Adventist Brazillian minister? My girlfriend’s dad … … No? Hi Top Sports! Thanks very much for stopping by. I’m a big fan of Kerri & Misty – they’re both *fantastic*. Like Gwen said, thanks for stopping by Top Sports. Is that Top Sports in that you are a Top who likes to play sports, maybe Topping the girls on the volleyball court. Yes, Dev, this thread has had just about everything so let’s throw in a hot Brazilian prison warden from a women’s prison for the re-education of brats. Sounds like that could be a chapter in your next book. “…a Seventh Day Adventist Brazillian minister?” Do I even want to know, Gwen? Michael wrote:”Yes, Dev, this thread has had just about everything so let’s throw in a hot Brazilian prison warden from a women’s prison for the re-education of brats. Sounds like that could be a chapter in your next book. ” Or a new character for CORPORAL IDAHO 2….? Dr. Ken “Brazilian prison warden from a women’s prison for the re-education of brats.” Hello Brat Code Union Steward! We have a Top violation of our brat unity against all prison wardens. I would like to write a grievance please. cj The Grievance Forms (CP-451/OW) are where they’re always kept, CJ – on the shelf right in front of the spanking stocks in the Brat Regulation Center. The forms are within easy reach when you girls are secured in the stocks, but of course no sharp objects such as pens and pencils may be taken into the BRC, and the rules prohibit the removal of blank forms from the BRC. I’m proud to say that during my tenure as Chief Brat Regulation Officer there has not been a single grievance filed, which I take as a great compliment to the fairness and efficiency of my staff, hard and unyielding as it … er … they may appear to you girls. - CBRO O’Neill Nice Catch-22 you have for handling grievances, CBRO O’Neill. Bet you received a bonus for coming up with that method. Better keep a sharp eye on cj, though, because if ever a brat could game the system it would be her, with an able assist from Kristina her cohort in bratitude, I’m sure. I’m still trying to figure out which is Robin to the other’s Batman, my guess is they take turns to keep us on our toes. CORPORAL IDAHO 2 – Perfect, Dr. Ken! Hope you’re taking notes, Dev. hmmm…i think we are more like thelma and louise….cj? (cj- when you go to file your grievance, bring a new tube of lipstick!) Thelma and Louise! Who is Geena Davis and who is Susan Sarandon? Stay away from any cliffs now, girls. Thank you Kristina I was thinking crayons too.. However what I was able to do was hack into the computer and print my own grievance form out. I was also able to slip it into the lock box while the CBRO was primping in the mirror Yep Thelma and Louise and boy do I love to drive fast! Michael I am thinking if we did come across a cliff or two we would make it over to the other side. cj that’s right, because we would be driving a ferrari!! Now you are talking Kristina! I love the way you think. cj Nice try, Thelma and Louise, but lipstick and crayons both are contraband in the BRC – more for the mess they make when subjected to excessive body heat produced by their carrier during discipline than any possible weapons use, as is the case with pens and pencils. And Michael was right, gaming-the-system wise, though I’m sure he is aware of the EXTENSIVE body search that precedes a girl’s BRC session and wasn’t even concerned about this particular end-run around the rules. But CJ … “primping in the mirror”? I’ll add a dozen with the holey paddle for that, in addition to your mandated 50 of the strap for unauthorized computer use. And by the way, we use Century Schoolbook font, not Garamond, in our forms production. I’ll be changing that to something else tonight. Just so you know. -CBRO O’Neill Looks like CBRO O’Neill has everything under control as usual, and the EXTENSIVE body search did slip my mind for a moment, but I’m sure that’s all cj and Kristina wil have on their minds now. cj, a dozen stingers with the dreaded holey paddle on top of 50 with the strap! You better hope Kristina has enough arnica to go around. *G* lol – i am not going anywhere near the CBRO! but don’t worry cj – i have lots of arnica (and frozen peas)! Kristina, I’m sure CBRO O’Neill will be coming to you. Frozen peas! LOL Bet that’s a shock to the system! Do you have carrots to go with those peas? (oops – I meant I am not going anywhere near the BRC, too many acronyms!) lol – peas are better, you can put them in a tea towel if they are too cold! “lol – peas are better, you can put them in a tea towel if they are too cold!” Kristina, spoken like a true brat who has needed to sit on many a package of frozen peas in her time. Remind me on Monday morning to buy some stock in Birds Eye Frozen Food company. Kristina is right about the peas! Yes I do believe CBRO O’Neill has won this wizards chess match! Hello Kristina, where are you? *rubbing bottom* I really need that arnica and the peas. Matter of fact you might need to get a few packages of peas cause my bum may cook the first few! Lesson Learned ‘CBRO O’Neill does not primp in a mirror’…well that is at least what he says. cj “Kristina is right about the peas!” I see cj is like her fellow brat Kristina and has lots of experience cooling a roasted bum with peas. Since they may be cooked due to the heat from your torched bottom the next time (and we all know there WILL be a next time) CBRO O’Neill should spank you with the peas on top of your tushy and this way you can have stir-fried veggies. *G* Where are you Kristina? The brat code demands that you come to the aide of cj with arnica and frozen peas. Bet you’re out melting your credit card at the mall. never fear cj – wonder-brat to the rescue! i picked up a family size package of peas at megalomart and brought the arnica cream i keep in the fridge! lol – michael, i may have been at nordstorms looking at the purses and shoes….maybe….(no tax this weekend!!) Thank you Wonder-Brat!! cj Peas? Bill Shakespeare would say ‘pease,’ as in: Pease porridge hot, Pease porridge cold, Pease porridge on the bot, Why does he have to scold? (Expurgated lines from “The Taming of the Shrew.” Honest. *G*) But CHILLED Arnica? Okay, I can see that, Kristina. Good thinking. And BTW, I discovered that Tiger Balm, warm or chilled, is a poor substitute, soothing a sore bum wise. I’m sure you can imagine why. -Dev Dev! Tiger balm my gawd dang did you dislike the girl that much? Thats why I carry my own arnica when I know I am in for it. cj “Tiger balm my gawd dang did you dislike the girl that much?” Not at all, CJ, but I was young and inexperienced, and I quickly realized my mistake – who knew hot cinnamon hadn’t the same effect on a well spanked bottom as it did on my sore iron pumping arms? – and instantly switched to good old Jergen’s lotion. And watch your language, young lady. *G* BTW, gracious of you to cede the chess game. As we all know, age and treachery will overcome youth and skill every time. Oh and Kristina – does your Wonder Brat costume come with drop-seat tights? Just curious. -Dev ‘drop-seat tights’ lol – no – it is a short red dress and cape with pink ruffled panties! Awww … no drop-seat tights? But I do like the pink ruffled panties – all the better to pull down and spank your Wonder Brat-ish bottom, my dear. -Big Bad Dev HOLEY PADDLES, Spankerman, it’s Wonder-Brat! Better warm up your arm as there will be lots of bratty bums to whack between her and her sidekick, Bratgirl! While Wonder-Brat has pink ruffled panties to pull down it is Bratgirl who wears the drop-seat tights, so it’s a Win-Win situation, Spankerman! Your faithful companion, Red Hornet, for my sting leaves a girl’s tushy red and ouchie.

photo credit: talentonline.co.nz photo credit: talentonline.co.nz and bratty behavior. Or to put it another way, our concern is with naughty schoolgirls and their correction, ensuring they walk the straight and narrow, usually with a red ouchy bottom. So, with the fall semester beginning it is time for us Tops to start herding the recalcitrant sisters-in-bratitide into school to continue their education. All the young ladies need to immediately report to Professor O’Neill’s classroom wearing their brand new schoolgirl uniforms for the start of lessons. photo credit: Coed Magazine blog photo credit: Coed Magazine blog We expect to see Gwen, Kristina, cj, Season, Poppy, Jay, Anne and all the rest of our schoolgirls, eager to begin classes and on your best behavior. Tardiness and any cheekiness will be dealt with swiftly, forcefully and with great embarrassment as punishment will occur in full view of the entire student body. It is customary to provide students with a list of items needed for class but instead we have a list of necessary supplies for Tops in dealing with naughty schoolgirls. Required Top Supplies For Continuing Female Adult Education Paddle – leather Paddle – lexan Paddle – wood, holey Shoe sole – leather, holes optional Slipper – leather Hairbrush – rectangular Hairbrush – oval Bath brush – wood Bath brush – plastic Tawse or strap – leather Ruler – wood Ruler – flexi Yardstick – wood Cane – rattan Chalk – for naughty girls to write lines on the blackboard - photo credit: Coed Magazine blog Punishment books – a two subject notebook supplied to each girl for writing lines and listing infractions Timer – for counting down the long minutes when a girl is standing in the corner Rectal thermometer – to insure the health of our young ladies Enema equipment – to be used only in extreme cases of bratitude Tissues – endless supply Arnica – see Tissues above Besides these required items Tops are more than welcome to enhance and massage the curriculum to their own specific needs and requirements and that of their students by including implements and punishments of their own choosing. This brings to mind Devlin O’Neill’s Red Blossom College brought to us so vividly and in all its spanking glory in his ‘A Maid For All Seasons’ series. I always thought he should continue the squirmy saga with a new class of incoming students consisting of some of his existing female characters like Beth, Gwen, Jill, Montana and Felicia. They would be the underclassmen to the younger girls such as Lisa, and not only suffer under the gaze and hand of Professor Dylan but also be subject to hazing by the youngsters. Until they turned the tables and the straight back chairs on their feminine tormentors. So let us ring in the new school year, and let it be quickly followed with the squeals of naughty schoolgirls being corrected in a most squirmy way. photo credit: Coed Magazine blog I do not even know where to begin to start. I … er … the thing is … No, it is no good. There is too much to say, all my words have crashed trying to get out of my brain at the same time. Some cute pictures but … oh the humanity. School holidays may be over but … that is no … it is just not … cricket. I am going for a lie down. There will be no hairbrush in my school bag……nor any where hear my person thank you very much! Michael you forgot the address of this school, how can we turn up if we don’t know where it is? Poppy, just the reaction I was hoping for, thank you. And if you are going for a lie down I bet by necessity it is on your tummy. *G* Jay, just follow your fellow red bottomed brats and you will be led right to Dev’s office for registration. I will make a note in your file, no hairbrush for Jay, begin with the cane and the bath brush. *G* :-0 Will the Professor’s pet monkey be in attendance? Does he have a pet monkey? That would be fabulous. He can sit all the classes whilst we go and do all the stuff that we need to do. That list of school supplies was not in the rack at Office Max last time I checked. As Kristina would say, Haaaaarumphhhhhh. Season, very good Kristina impression. And this list is for Top eyes only so wouldn’t be available to the general public, especially to the sisters-in-bratitude. Splendidly done, Michael! Worth the wait. So Poppy, where do we sign up for this school then? BTW……I plan to flunk math, science and prolly R.E Thanks, Bro. And the wait Dev is alluding to is that this post should have been published last week but I was being haunted by WordPress and had all sorts of technical problems and ghosts in the machine. Dev and Gwen listened to me moan about it so I thank them for their patience. Yikes! I think I’ve just decided to join the work study program – I’ll continue my studies out of the classroom … in an undisclosed location … till after graduation! Michael! i am not hrumph-ing, because Michael is not talking about me… why you ask? because i am in school all year round with no breaks, so september is not a starting point, aaaand i no longer take classes… so neener neener neener!!! Sorry Gwen and Kristina, your excuses don’t hold water and for being naughty enough to try and get out of classes you girls will be the first to be spanked this semester and it will be in front of your classmates on your bare bottoms. Gwen, you may participate in our Work Study Program, but it will be on campus under the tutelage of your Uncle D polishing his wooden implements – and no that is not a euphemism young lady, and for such a cheeky outburst you will get an extra dose with the hairbrush. Kristina, I guess you don’t remember Lisa from Dev’s “A Maid For All Seasons” series attending the regular university in town as well as taking classes at Red Blossom College under the firm hand of Professor Dylan. She did both and you will be doing both as well. Now get into your uniform and see me for your punishment. Dear Professor, My alpaca ate my class schedule, and tuition check, so I will try to attend next semester. Sincerely, cj btw sorry have not been around–we have had a tough time on the farm –lost a 10 month old alpaca on Sat, and a premie was born on Sunday–who is now at the Univ. of Georgia’s Vet School Hospital. She seems to be doing better. Sorry for your loss, cj, and you were missed. Hope the little gal pulls through. Now, as for your attendance, we will put you on a special program for the truly bratty for which you are eminently qualified, cj. Your tuition amount will be turned into a corresponding number of spanks which you will receive over the course of the semester in addition to any other punishments you earn. So report to me after I have finished with Kristina and I will deduct your first tuition payment with use of the holey paddle. Big hugs CJ. As for you Michael, you and Dev seem swamped with all the minxs that you have to keep an eye on. I will be a brave soldier and do home study, mostly on my sofa with a cup of tea. Poppy, that naughty excuse just moved you to the front of the line ahead of Gwen and Kristina so you will be the first to be spanked. Gwen and Kristina will have to settle for second place, but don’t worry girls your turn will be up soon enough. Dang I forgot Michael, I was on a scholarship this semester so my tuition was $0.00. Yes ZERO dollars owed. Thank you for the thought of a special program, does not look like I will need that afterall. Thanks Michael and Poppy. The vet seems positive about Misty’s recovery. I could never be so rude as to barge ahead in a queue Michael- it goes against the ways of my people. Alas, I shall have to decline your offer. I think there are far naughtier girls than me around that are crying out for your attention. They are being quiet assuming that you will not be cunning enough to catch them. I think you should show your cunning and guile and get those girls first, then Gwen and Kristina. I will be very good and wait. Owe me a wine thank you CJ. I will drink to Misty’s recovery. cj, while scholarships don’t cost the student anything there still is a dollar value on it and you shall be assessed that value in spanks. Nice try though. Poppy, it goes against the ways of your people? I thought brats always barged to the head of the line, especially if it involves ice cream. And there is no such creation as a naughtier girl than you so the queue status remains the same with you first followed by Gwen, Kristina and now cj. Okay, let’s get this spanking show on the road. Sits in the back row watching all the brats getting told off by Professor Michael (that sounds soooo wrong), while i study up on English verbs and other usless crap! Jay said a rude word. no i didnt Jay, I think I’m going to have to agree with Poppy — “study” is a very rude word. I’m shocked to see it being tossed about so freely! However, I do agree with you about having to learn useless crap. That sucks. THERE you are, Season, and mouthy as usual. I see Michael has had his hands full in my absence, but I just had a bionic implant in my right biceps brachii so that I can keep my spanking arm going like the battery rabbit. As to the queue, I think we’ll forgo that paradigm and simply bend the lot of you over your desktops, at least for the preliminary rounds. Season and Jay both said naughty words! We all know that one should never use the S***y word on the Professor’s blog. The very idea!!!! Professor Michael, I just found my non-spanking scholarship certificate! Professor Dev, Season can’t be mouthy she is s***ying! BTW the desks have not arrived yet, they seem to be delayed. Remember that small fire last year? You know the one that all of the desks were piled high in the school yard and some how ended up in flames. It was very sad. However, being the wonderful girls that we are we utilized the fire to roast hot dogs and make s’mores. Actually, i quite like STUDYING. I STUDY alot. btw, sice when do sister brats dob there little sisters in it? Code and honour sisters, please. Could someone explain to me if the time when things are posted here is EST, or a different time zone? I’m trying to keep track of a seriously naughty brat and have a need to know! LSW Hi LadySheWolf - I think that Uncle D. resides in a little corner of the world which is located in Central U.S. (My comments are always posted an hour ahead of my current time and I’m in East U.S. too) I know *two very naughtynice girls* who live over in Europe. Just add 5 or 6 hours to what your clock says and it’ll give you a ballpark and yes, I bet they’re staying up waaaay too late. But I could be wrong. xoxo The blite is on central daylight time, LSW. Add 6 hours to get Greenwich meridian time, or 1 hour for eastern daylight time. CJ, you must be thinking of some other school. Our desks are right where they always have been, waiting for you. Hi! Here is the Time Zone guide to some of the citizens of this blog, especially for those of you in the UK who think the US is massively huge and confusing: Eastern Time Zone is about 7:45 am right now. That includes Gwen, Kristina, Michael, CJ, and LadySheWolf. Add one hour to whatever time the blog says it is. Central Time Zone is about 6:45 am right now. This is Blog Time and where Devlin, Dr. Ken, and Season reside. Mountain Time Zone is about 5:45 am right now. Subtract one hour from blog time. Not sure of any commenters/lurkers there. Maybe you can poke your heads up and say hi? Pacific Time Zone is about 4:45 am right now. Subtract 2 hours from blog time. Erica is there. If you’re wondering about our UK friends, just add 6 hours to whatever time is posted on the blog. At least that is true for Poppy. It is about 12:45 pm where she is right now. Jay – are you in the same time zone? How about Worzel? Hope you’re all enjoying a nice lunch! I’m not sure of the location of Chross, Dave, Belle, Denise, Hermione, Cigi, Cheryl, Paul, Sara, Angelika, Gabby, JoLee, or Todd & Suzy. Sorry if I missed anyone! I am only part way through my coffee this morning. Give us a *wave* and a time zone if you’re out there! This concludes our test of the emergency broadcasting system. K? I believe LSW is looking for you. LOL – good luck with that ms cj! thank you season for the overview! do you think teachers still accept bribes? I’m watching both of you! And cj, I’d like to know why your posting at 11:30 am and 4 pm when your at work? Hmmm? Thank you Gwen, Dev and Season for explaining how the blog time works, as well as letting me know where some of you are. I believe all of the UK is 6 hours ahead of blogtime (CST), and Im positive that both cj and Kristina need a long session bent over those desks. I will be seeing them both next week and will be sure to add strokes to whatever they’ve earned by then. Go for it Professor! WEG cj and Kristina, sounds like you are both in for some “entertainment” next week. Hope you have plenty of arnica on hand. And Ladyshewolf, hope your arm is limber. Girls, “study” is not a rude word but “not studying” is very naughty and will get you spanked in front of the entire class. This is UK calling. The time sponsered by accurist will be 4:28 and 30 seconds..beep…beep….beep..the time soponsered by… (in the afternoon that is.) Mmmmm. Spanked in front of the entire class huh…well that may well happen in nov anyway. But Michael, I can’t be a naughty girl…naughty girls don’t get lovely silver suits and white linnen blouses and paten leather shoes bought for them. I am now the very proud owner of such an outfit and therefore must surely be a good girl. (No I didn’t buy it for myself so it does count.) And I’m still studying…well kinda. Jay, I hope you do get spanked in front of the class in November. Are you attending a spanking party? And I bet you look charming in your new outfit. Also, how do you kinda study? Yes Michael, its a very special party that is held only once a year. Theres a caning comp and real classes to sit in on. I tried the outfit on in the store and stepped out to show me mam…about 6 people looked round and mam gaped. Its very different from my usual baggy jeans and tee. I’m kinda studying for peadiatric first aid at the mo. gotta go on a course on Monday to get the cert. I thought it would help if i reviewed the course material before hand. No I dont want to be a nurse…so stop with those kinky thoughts. I have to have first aid cert as part of my current job. Phew….questions answered. Time is a relative concept and I think that we should not allow ourselves to be constrained by it. Maybe we need to consider some philosophical approaches rather than this rather literal approach. Jay has the going to school bit covered for us in the UK, well between the of us we have it covered. It is the education on the other side of the pond that seems to be lacking. That is my story and I am sticking to it. Awwwwwwwwww dag nab it! Can I get back to you about that, LSW? Poppy, I think Season and Kristina are more than capable of handling the education issue on this side of the pond. As for me, I am handling the social affairs, keeping up with the latest alcoholic drinks, chocolates and pizza’s. This is a full time occupation, it is tough, but somebody has to do it! I sacrificed myself for the better good! CJ – you are in troubleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee. You are right about Season and Kristina – I had hoped that I would get away with that. It seems like neither of us get away with stuff. As you all know, ‘getting away with stuff’ is not on the curriculum at Red Blossom College, Michael Anthony’s Academy, or anywhere else I hang out, so that last bit should come as no surprise. Theres no ‘getting away with stuff’ that you know of Professor. You have not yet had the pleasure of my company at either of those establishments. Well said, Dev, and we do hope to have the pleasure of your company, Jay, and the rest of the sisters-in-bratitide one day for a very ouchy over our knees meet and greet. Alcoholic drinks??? I think you just sacrificed your bottom for my greater good! LOL LSW, please wait I did not say I was drinking them. I said I was “keeping up with them”. Which really means I subscribe to bartenders monthly magazine. cj, you tap dance quite well. Thank you, Michael. (many years of practice) Sorry to interrupt. I need to try out my new avatar to see if it works. Then CJ can get back to dancing. Let me try this again. There we go! Right nickname. Right picture. Cool, Season is now Nala Hey Season you owe yourself a glass of wine!! awwwwwwww shucks make it a bottle!! Cj! Enough with the alcohol, you’d better stop dancing and start running! Very pretty Season! :0) Thanks Jay! This avatar is called “Nala in Love”. And I am. Thanks CJ! Wooooo Hoooooo! hiccup. (‘scuse me) Thanks LSW! I hope you think a certain pair of matching bath brushes are pretty, too. Maybe you’ll see them side by side soon? nuh huh!!! Matching bathbrushes and a pair of matching red bottoms, side by side over the back of my couch…sounds pretty nice to me Season. Thanks! The bathbrush is evil………..my little finger hasnt been the same since!! Cool avatar, Season! I love Nala. cj, sounds like LSW put an end to your dance recital, enjoy the bath brush. You too, Kristina. Jay, that’s what happens when you try to cover your bum with your hand during a paddling. Next time Worzel should tie your hands. Season that is such a pretty avatar. But who is Nala? Poppy, Gwen is going to very disappointed in you. Nala is Simba’s love interest in the Disney movie classic “The Lion King.” Actually Michael, it wasn’t Worzel it was Uncle Phil. Your right about the other thing though, I shouldnt have reached back. Hope your pinky heals soon, Jay, and I bet for reaching back Phil gave your bum extra smacks. Very hard smacks. Ummm well he might have! All i know is it bloody well hurt!! Thank you Michael. I consider my education complete now. Jay, if it still hurts put some ice on it. Your pinky and your bum. Poppy, a young lady’s education is never complete, there is always something more to learn, so expect to be in schoolgirl kit for a while. SEASON!!! you are killing me! I have already been told that I am in so much trouble, my head is barely above water! I am currently practicing sprinting to any door that will lock. Michael is quite correct, Poppy. CJ, you should have a care as to who else you lock in with you. Just saying. Thanks for the advice, Professor. Jay, sorry about your pinky. Sheesh. Umm well thanks for the concern guys………but this happened back in march…or was it april. Me pinky is ok…….I’ll live. Jay, back in March or April! Jeeze, I thought you had your hand in a cast now the way you were going on. I hope Worzel and Phil paddle you again with the bath brush just on general principle – and also because you want them to. does the library have hot librarians at school? At our school Professor O’Neill and I have naughty girls serve in the library with their red ouchy bottoms on display as part of their punishment. Kristina, you are due there after class today to display your bum while you sort books. I’ll make sure you get all the bottom shelves so you have to bend over. *G* how am i going to flirt with the hot librarians if i am filing books on the bottom shelves??? I think if you are filing on the bottom shelves – they will flirt with you! Poppy is right, Kristina, just see how much attention you attract. They’ll be lining up behind you. They may have paddles in hand, though. *G*

I feel that the mass viewing and interest in the movie and storyline of the film Inception is indicative of the global shift in consciousness that is scheduled to occur in 2012. We are all currently witnessing and participating in the “inception” of a mass awakening as the title of the film itself was probably meant to demarcate our full blown initiation into this coming of age (which is our transition into the Age of Aquarius). I don’t feel like expounding on the film and the obvious influence and parallels of ancient Hindu Vedic scriptures within it, but anyone who knows me and has talked with me knows that I have expressed how I perceive reality as varying degrees of dream consciousness for quite some time. That’s all reality is and ever will be: an infinite dream of different densities and layers, where we struggle to conceive that the main layer that we reside in and label “the real world” is actually just a part of the one great dream as well… muthafucka! “Is all that we see or seem but a dream within a dream?” -Edgar Allen Poe ∞ In the midst of the release of the shocking audio tapes that reveal an irate, hysterical Mel Gibson filled with uncontrollable rage, I once again ponder the role of perception in life (and how it truly is EVERYTHING). I mean it baffles me, it seems almost inconceivable that a man who has to be worth hundreds of millions of dollars can allow a single busted relationship to have complete domain over his happiness and peace of mind. This man literally has the entire world at his disposal and although he did have a child with the woman on the tapes, he could very well impregnate most any woman of his choosing. Why trip so hard? Also, It really didn’t sound as if he was remotely as concerned about his child as he was about demeaning his ex-girlfriend, so he needs to get his priorities straight. And I can fully understand being despondent and wanting this female to reciprocate some degree of compassion that he probably showed to her in their past (as that is natural), but as far as going completely apeshit, batshit crazy and yelling with an intensity unequaled by any Hollywood scene in existence is just unfathomable to me. That kind of behavior can never get anything accomplished because it’s purely destructive to both parties. He could’ve addressed her in a loving manner and even if she no longer cared for him, the average person will still retain at least some degree of respect for the other party when they express their feelings in that way. But he probably has a massive sense of entitlement due to his success and celebrity and just feels that he can scream at the top of his lungs at somebody in order to try to resolve things and still expect them to listen and care. He seems to be a long cry from his character’s approach in What Women Want. LOL. No one is ever going to be receptive to degradation and abuse unless they have some kind of psychological disorder, some predilection to actually enjoy abusive behavior. So do these people ever stop to reflect on what they have in life, and what they’ve accomplished in their careers before they blow their top and go apeshit? That’s a rhetorical question, because of course they don’t. If Mel Gibson just had someone like me to talk to him to help rationalize his situation, I’m sure that none of this would’ve ever happened. It truly just goes to show that no amount of money can ensure that an individual can put life events and situations in proper perspective and realize what they have. These mega-rich celebrities and debutantes are just as embattled with the same emotions that average folk like us are, often times even more so. This incident is just one more development that I need to catalog in my psyche on the way to full-scale realization that money and success do not in any way equate with the highest objective and most liberating attainment in this life: happiness. It’s sooo cliche to say that money can’t buy happiness, but only because it’s the absolute truth. But Mel can always redeem himself. Any human being is always worthy of both redemption and forgiveness in my book, no exceptions. I really hope that he comes back a much stronger, wiser individual than ever before. I hope he finds happiness in his life. You can tell from the tapes that all he really wanted was the same thing that we all desire in the very end, to be both loved and understood- he just reacted in the wrong way and was probably dealing with someone who is incompatible with him and not seeking that same degree of completion at the present moment… True Story, But Still No One Gives a Shit 07/10/2010 I still read on a regular basis and try to program myself with information that is outside of the mainstream media, but as much as I portray myself to be outside of the system, I’m truly not (and in reality I’m behind and lacking). I’m not above it by any means, although I would like to be. Even though I view mainstream media as an utter joke, I myself still fall victim to its slick marketing tactics and psychologically engineered appeal at times. Just watching this video and hearing this world renowned whistle blower’s outcry over our misdirected attention and talents has fully opened my eyes to both my lack of patience and originality. Although I can be fairly creative at times, I am not currently operating at anywhere close to my mind’s full capacity. I feel that this video alone has already provided me the impetus to accomplish something this year that I hitherto had not focused on or planned. What it will be, I do not know yet, but I need to break this seemingly immutable cycle of indifference of mine that breeds even more apathy. It just augments itself while I should be reaching to fulfill my creative potential. I might just take some enrichment courses at the local college and learn how to use some new programs, particularly Photoshop courses. WTF Is Society Coming To? 07/03/2010 Short post here… WTF is up with all of these guys wearing skinny jeans and adopting ultra-feminine qualities and mannerisms? I understand that one must get in touch with his feminine side in order to achieve balance and harmony, but not THAT in touch. I mean, what’s up with all these guys on Facebook who have more modeling shoot pics of themselves than Adriana Lima does in her career portfolio? I think most of them are closet homosexuals and are just screaming to get a hard, hot cock rammed up their ass. That’s what it looks like they’re crying out for. And then you have more and more women looking like men. WTF has the world come to when you have so many men trying to act like women and so many women trying to act like men? The line between the sexes is seriously getting blurred. LOLOLOL. The man said it all in his classic song, it’s deep inside all of our hearts: I feel that the worldwide religious and political tensions have FINALLY reached a critical mass. One man, out of countless who come forth, will take the world spotlight by virtue of speaking the Truth and the world will once again be transformed by his heart, his words, his tears and his blood from his eventual assassination. The last one to come close was Gandhi, let’s wait and see who it turns out to be this time around. Tensions are boiling and are at fever pitch worldwide and especially in Israel-Palestine right now. An incredible being will emerge in the near future and garner center stage. People are subconsciously fed up with all of the bullshit and the lies and the media spin. The Truth speaks for itself and the time is right for its new millenium messenger, the world is ready to listen to reason. 2012. Watch. Many theorists think that Obama is primed to be portrayed as a “messiah type figure.” LOL. We’ll see how it all unfolds. We are definitely living in some interesting times… 1♥ We’re All From Africa 06/04/2010 The migration of humans across the world is worthy of study, check it out: If we use the “we were here first” principle, there will continue to be fighting around the world. With globalization, global travel, etc., the blending of people, culture, ideas are inevitable. Without stressing national economies, it’s time to start thinking about the quality of life as a global issue. I’m not saying to open up all the borders or advocating something ridiculous like that, all that I’m saying is that the debate is not going to go away. Some resolutions need to be made in this highly globalized world state and economy. I just wonder if human beings will ever be able to transcend their primitive tribal mindsets and comprehend the oneness of the human race, the only race. ============================================================================== Haha, The Supremes- “You Can’t Hurry Love (L’amore Verrà)” in Italiano. These women sang beautifully in any language: Voglio amare, però lo so, non potrò mai mai cambiare il mondo: aspetto qui L’amore verrà l’amore verrà ogni cosa a suo tempo prima o poi mi toccherà L’amore verrà l’amore Lo sento per te so che un giorno L’amore verrà l’amore verrà ogni cosa a suo tempo ed anche lui lo troverà con me E poi poi finalmente fra le braccia sue potrò restare L’amore verrà l’amore verrà ogni cosa a suo tempo prima o poi mi toccherà L’amore verrà l’amore verrà lo sentirò subito lo capirò subito L’amore verrà uh, l’amore verrà ♥ E Pluribus Unum 04/30/2010 ANNUIT CŒPTIS You know, I’m proud to be an American… not in the huge pickup truck with the lift kit, mud flaps and 17 patriotic bumper stickers type of way, but more in the sense that I truly understand the social impact that this nation has had on the entire world. No one will ever be able to convince me that America is anything less than the greatest marvel in all of history and the most incredible project ever undertaken by mankind. Despite this great nation’s inefficiencies, notorious crassness and propensity for scandals, it has largely been a success in terms of fulfilling the vision that our founding fathers had when they created this great state of all states. America is the equivalent of a global reunion- after mankind has scattered himself over thousands upon thousands of years to create societies that span every corner of this globe, this nation above and beyond all other nations is the meeting point for all people of the world to congregate. Beyond being a global hub, the United States is a microcosm of the planet Earth itself: This great and bountiful nation has every terrain that is native to this planet and every last race, culture and nationality has come here to coalesce to create something that is beyond any spectacle. And there are undeniable racial and ethnic tensions here, but one cannot expect all of mankind to meet back in one spot after thousands of years apart from his brethren to just pick up right where he left off. It’s going to take time and effort to relieve the tensions, but this nation is the nation where it is being done. Don’t get me wrong, many other nations, including many South American and European countries have some incredible diversity, but their brand of cultural diversity simply doesn’t rival the sheer immensity of this nation’s as well as the monumental vision that this nation’s founding fathers held in their hearts to be fulfilled. A walk through any one of our major cities’ downtown areas is the sociological equivalent of a nature trek through the lush and luxuriant Amazon basin. So when I say that I am proud to be an American, it’s not out of ethnocentrism because I don’t consider there to be a dominant ethnicity in this great nation- what I’m truly saying is that I am proud to be a member of the human race. America is the flagship, the standard of a WORLD nation, and will be the benchmark for all nations to come. Perhaps growing up mixed race in a city of millions facilitated raising my view to already see all of this in large scope. I feel that I epitomize what it is to be an American because I see my physical features reflected in all varieties of people here. In addition, I see myself as a reflection of the social, cultural and political amalgamation that is this great nation. In generations to come, I have no doubt that most of the negative notions and criticisms that the global media has towards America will be erased when the true beauty of this nation has been fully unveiled with the passage of time, the beauty that is the creation of the first place in mankind’s recorded history that all people from all corners of planet Earth gathered en masse to create the greatest society hitherto known… There may be others to surpass it in the future, but my heart bleeds for this pioneer state in which mankind reunited with all of his long lost brethren to try to create a society of acceptance and prosperity for all. Whether or not this is ever fully attained is beside the point… the point is that it happened here, that America opened the door for all future global unification. I am proud to be an American=I am proud to be a member of the human race. Irrespective of differing views and race relations here, this is the greatest project in all of history. All of humankind will see and understand the full magnitude of the development of this glorious nation one day, I have no doubt in my heart that it will. “Imagine all the people living life in peace. You may say I’m a dreamer, but I’m not the only one. I hope someday you’ll join us, and the world will be as one.” -John Lennon NOVUS ORDO SECLORUM ∞ Che Guevara eyeballin’ the chick of his choice in the club. This song, released decades after Che’s assassination, captures that steely look of sexual determination in his eyes and countenance: But on some real (non-clowning) shit, The Motorcycle Diaries was a great movie that captured a young Che Guevara’s volatile and pivotal journey throughout the South American continent that sparked his desire to become a revolutionary leader. I don’t believe in socialism at all, but that doesn’t take away from the exceptional screenplay of that film. Great, great movie, real talk. ========================================================================================== This is my favorite Nas, the REAL Nas who makes material like this when he’s not conforming to industry standards. It’s an esoteric, slang patois that he speaks on tracks like this that only a true hip hop head can fully decipher: Semi-esoteric album version: Fully esoteric street mixtape version: You get a straight mystical vibe from these tracks where Nas is fully himself. In the wake of the Tiger Woods scandal we have already been bombarded by news of another high profile celebrity situation involving allegations of multiple extramarital affairs. That’s right, you can’t turn on a television without hearing news of the shakeup in Jesse James and Sandra Bullock’s relationship. The thing is, I’m concerned that this type of exposure is a developing trend and that I will have to stomach all of these bullshit reports on wrongdoings and allegations from now on each and every time that I want to sit down and watch any broadcast involving current events or entertainment. God help me if they start reporting retroactively and going back throughout all of the years and decades in order to dig up information on steamy affairs, all in a lame attempt to boost ratings due to the public’s heightened interest in such reports. The truth is that I’m already tired of this shit. I couldn’t care less how many times who fucked who and for how long the secretive relationship lasted. ALL of it is nothing beyond DRIVEL. The fact of the matter is that none of this exposure is going to do anything to change the morals and values that are already in disarray in this country. Times have changed and acceptance of lifestyle choices that used to be considered taboo have now either gained acceptance or seen decreased condemnation and only some old, wrinkly ass prune of a person should find any of these recent reports of adulterous behavior alarming in the least. I’m not saying that I condone being married and running around like a rabbit on Viagra trying to penetrate any orifice in sight, all that I’m stressing is that none of this surprises the younger demographic and that all of these situations are highly personal issues that should be discussed or resolved between the parties involved, not the entire nation. It doesn’t take a genius to figure out that every problem has a core, and the core of the issue here is the guidelines of the marriages themselves. Muthafuckas need to either make the guidelines for their marriages more lax and allow for multiple partners without anyone trippin’ OR people simply don’t need to be getting married if they know that they can’t be monogamous to someone who fully expects them to be. There, I solved the budding issue in American households that’s being brought to the forefront by all these douchebag reporters. It really is that simple, bitch. And I must reiterate once more, I’m tired of hearing about this shit on TV. Fuck ‘em. Pussy: “But what about the children??” Me: They’re not mine and I feel for them, but their parents should’ve exercised more caution before deciding to enter into a bond where they expect the other partner to fulfill stringent responsibilities like lifelong monogamous partnership- either that or they should’ve had a “fuck anyone without hearing you bitch, cry and moan” clause. Who else noticed how eerily close “Obama Nation” and the word “abomination” are to being homophones?? Coincidence or not?? Hey Mr. Dipshit Conspiracy Theorist, It’s Not a “Conspiracy” When the Government and the Media Make No Attempt to Conceal It 03/09/2010 As we speak, a global police state is further taking form as we continue to cede our constitutional rights more and more as each day goes by. The two parties work in unison to help progress the agenda of the new global order but most people still seem to think that they are actually the bitter rivals who are at odds with one another that they portray themselves to be in the media. It’s all just a big act but I’m really anxious to see what the future holds. Aldous Huxley and George Orwell seemed to have a clear vision of our near future when they wrote A Brave New World and 1984 respectively. I just don’t understand why people still speak of the obvious as “conspiracy.” It’s like no fucking shit, since the inception of the United Nations right after World War II, everything has been leading up to a One World governance (most often referred to as the New World Order). The fall of the Soviet Union in the late ’80s was the true harbinger of this ever-developing world state as the resulting power vaccum allowed U.S. hegemonic influence combined with the authority of the U.N. to effectively commandeer the global political arena. I’m just curious to see how smoothly it all operates when the Islamic and African states that have traditionally been ruled by authoritarian regimes are at last fully assimilated into the system and everything begins operating full tilt. The system is already solidly in place and these leftists and people spewing rhetoric about a liberation movement of some sort are fucking idiots. A One World governance is simply the most logical and efficient form of global management. What the fuck are these people even complaining about? I guess it’s just instinctive for human beings to fear the unknown. Anyways, it’s ALL the same agenda. Obama is just Bush in velvet with amped-up slick talk, dare I say… a Bush in chic clothing? I bet if you were to research U.S. military activity during Obama’s tenure, you would most likely find that our armed forces have expanded and overall activity has increased under his leadership. A puppet is a puppet. You might perceive the puppet differently based on his rhetoric and appearance, but behind the scenes the same grand stage is being set regardless of who the fuck’s in office. ============================================================== Incredibly interesting article of the day: Virtual Musicians, Real Performances: How Artificial Intelligence Will Change Music

Ballers of Another Color: An Asian American Roundtable on Race and Sports PART ONE In the course of writing my San Francisco Chronicle column this week, which focuses on the complicated and often controversial issue of "rooting for your race" in sports, I ended up outreaching to some of the most fervent Asian American hoop fans in my social network. Some of them are players; some, strictly watchers. Some follow sports for a living, others, simply out of passion. But their responses were interesting and insightful enough that I wanted to share the full "transcript" of their thoughts. And given the limitations on space in my column—limits that I already regularly stretch way beyond the realm of the acceptable—adding 8500 more words seemed like a bad idea. And thus, I've moved this virtual roundtable here, to the frontier wasteland of my personal blog. Hope you find it interesting. And if you haven't checked out the original column, you can find it here. THE SQUAD - Bernard Chang, illustrator and comic book artist, Wonder Woman (position: point guard) - Steve Chin, social media consultant and managing editor, RezNet (position: coach) - Keith Chow, senior editor and education director, Secret Identities (position: power forward) - Albert Kim, staff writer, TNT's Leverage; former senior news director, ESPN, and senior editor, Sports Illustrated (position: play-by-play) - Michael Kim, anchor, ESPNEWS; contributor, SportsCenter (position: color) - Jonathan Lee, electrical engineer (position: die-hard fan) - Jerry Ma, principal, Epic Proportions; art director, Secret Identities—(position: shooting guard) - Tze Ming Mok, author, blogger (position: front-row trash-talker) - Nelson Wang, senior editor, CBS MoneyWatch (position: shooting guard) - Brian Yang, actor/producer, founder, DreamLeague NY (position: power forward) - Bill Yao, hedge fund CTO (position: sweat-mopper, bench) Why do you think there are so few Asian Americans in competitive team sports, and in particular, in basketball? Is it a matter of skill, physique, priorities (family or personal), or all of the above? Keith Chow: While I think the reasons you mention play some part, I think the assumption that those are the reasons there aren't Asian American athletes is the main reason that others—coaches, scouts, press, guys on the pick up court, etc.—overlook Asian American players. People don't expect Asians to excel in athletics, and since that's the default, you have to be really good just to get noticed. And even if you are really good, people still dismiss you. That's why Yao Ming's NBA career has meant so much to me. I think one of my proudest moments as an NBA fan was seeing Charles Barkley kiss a donkey's butt on TNT because he bet Kenny Smith that Yao would never score 20 points in an NBA game. Of course, soon after, Yao blew up for 30 against Dallas. Point is, even though Yao was the consensus number-one draft pick, people still doubted his ability, and I argue they still do. And as a matter of fact, the main criticism of his game is that it's "too Chinese," i.e., that he's too deferential and not aggressive. That just encapsulated to me what I think most Asian Americans go through on the pickup court. I can't count how many eye-rolls or chuckles I got whenever I called "next" on the court, only to work my ass off to stay on the court. In a way, though, this question kind of assumes that the stereotypes of Asians are true. There's the idea that goes around that Asians are not "creative," or that they can't "improvise." I think that notion is problematic. The ability to improv is like any other skill or talent and isn't exclusive to any particular culture. If that were the case, never mind athletes, there'd be no Asian comedians, actors, or musicians either. And speaking of musicians, there is actually a long tradition of Asian American jazz. Off the top of my head, I can think of Hiroshima, Anthony Brown, Jon Jang, and Fred Ho. Also, the battle rapper Jin got his big break freestyling on BET. The point is, Asian Americans' inability to "improvise" on the court or on the playground isn't what's keeping Asians from being a bigger part of team sports; instead, it's the assumption of that on the part of coaches or recruiters that Asians are by nature incapable of improvising that holds us back. I mean, it infuriates me whenever I hear criticism of Yao as being "robotic". I get what analysts are trying to say, but to me, it's code for "Asians aren't athletic". When Yao came into the league, he was doing things I'd never seen a guy over 7'5" do before. He was, and is, a gifted athlete, but a lot of that is still dismissed by detractors. It really plays into the stereotype that only blacks are natural athletes and non-blacks have to work really hard at "fundamentals" to succeed. Anyway, I think this is changing for younger generations. Also, I think my family is the anomaly. I mean, both my uncle and cousins were star basketball and football players in high school (I got cut three years in a row. Boo!), though we lived in Luray, a relatively small town in Virginia. In fact, it wasn't until I moved to a larger metro area that I experienced any kind of racism on the court. When I lived in Luray, because of my family's reputation, no one really assumed I couldn't play sports. And my parents never discouraged me to play sports. Steve Chin: Basketball is a full contact sport where physical play is a big asset. And the closer to the rim—preferably above it—that you play, the better your chances of success. By high school, it gets tougher for Asian boys generally to match up on the court, in terms of height. They possess the skills and quickness, but that's not always enough to make the cut. Same goes for the girls, although maybe to a lesser degree (the physical disparities do not appear as great). Albert Kim: I think the answers are going to vary depending on what generation you’re talking about. I’m in my mid-40s and my parents were first-generation immigrants who stressed academics and the arts, and could care less about athletics of any kind. For most of my peers, athletic accomplishment ranked way down on the list of priorities. I think younger generations grew up with parents who had somewhat broader perspectives on that front, but they were stifled by not having any role models out there. It’s hard to press forward with an activity when you don’t see anyone who looks like you succeeding at it. Bernard Chang: I played college basketball for Pratt Institute in Brooklyn, New York. It was a NCAA Division III program, which meant no athletic scholarships, and we played against schools like NYU, MIT, and even Columbia, which was a Division I school. I was not by any means, the "star player" on the team, averaging a mere 3 ppg, but I was the team captain and named co-MVP my senior year. I went on to be an assistant coach for Pratt after graduating, and was promoted to head coach the following season before resigning to pursue my artistic ambitions out west. I believe the overriding factor [for more Asian Americans not participating in team sports] is family pressures and parental guidance, instilled at a young age which cuts out the possibility for athletic pursuits later on during junior high/high school/and collegiate levels. Most Asian American families value academic excellence more than any other factor for their youth. As a result, more effort is put on studies and other things like "cultural development", most likely in the form of perhaps a musical instrument. Coupled with the fact that there are few Asian American athlete role models (A.K.A. "success stories"), this adds to the argument against pursuing sports. If you agree with Malcolm Gladwell's theory that 10,000 hours are needed to master a skill, then this a prime example of that. Over the years, I have coached youth basketball, and many times, I've had Asian parents pull their kids out because they wanted them to study more. What those parents do not understand is that while their child may not play in the NBA, there are still many valuable skills and experiences they learn through team sports as opposed to spending an extra few hours in front of a book. And if the kid is dissuaded at a young age to participate in sports, they are less likely to continue that pursuit later in life. Another example occurred when I was recruiting potential student-athletes as a coach at Pratt. I would go watch tournaments in New York and a good number of the Asian American kids I approached possessed the fundamental and athletic ability to potentially play at the collegiate level, but their answers were always that they had never considered that an option for college because their focus was on pursuing a degree as opposed to athletic competition. The truth is, less than 2% of all college athletes turn pro in their respective sports. Yet you never see a lack of white or black students fighting to play for their schools. I also believe there is also a psychological barrier that Asians feel they cannot compete with blacks or whites. This is an internal stereotype that stunts the growth of many potential Asian American athletes, and if anyone who has played sports knows that success is "90% mental." This is exhibited in many college gyms across the nation. In a hypothetical gym, there are usually three courts of games: the "A" court, where the best players ball (usually mostly black and white players); the "B" court where casual players play, (mostly white and maybe some Asian); and "C" court, where mostly Asian students play amongst themselves (usually foreign exchange students). The thing is, there are Asian kids who are skilled enough to play on the "A" court, but most pass because either they are not confident enough or choose to play with their friends, who are less skilled. As a result, when you continue to play against less skilled opponents, you rarely improve. This stereotype is also compounded by bias and racism when Asian American athletes do venture out to play with black and white athletes. I experienced this first hand, and continue to every time I step onto the court to play pick-up. Pick-up games are the majority of basketball games a player will participate in in their lifetime. A group of strangers meet at the court, and whoever has the next game gets to pick his four other players. Players are selected based on ability first—because if you win, you keep playing—and height second. But if you don't know anyone, and if there is a black or white player of similar height left to be picked, the majority of the time, the Asian will be left out. This is purely based on racial profiling and not actual ability or skills. Once I do play, and show that I can compete with the best of them, the next time it's not as difficult. But again, there is a world of rejection that comes with athletic competition, and it begins even before you have the opportunity to step onto the court to play. And if you don't think racism exists, it does. When we played against Columbia University, an Ivy League school, I heard fans in the crowd yell, "chink," "ching chong" and other racial slurs whenever I touched the ball. Jerry Ma: I think the skill level really isn't there just yet for Asians in sports. The truth is, sports are still something "new" to us. Basketball is really just catching on. I do think in, say, 10 years there will be many more Asians in the NBA. But really, we have a lot of ground to cover skill-wise. I mean, I don't even think the NFL is aired in most of Asia. But Asian Americans seem to be getting bigger recently. And I do think that eventually, we will be better represented in sports. Bill Yao: I think if you trace it all back, our underrepresentation in sports started with immigration patterns back in the Fifties. American universities recruited Asians for scholastic achievement, not athletic prowess. These students married other students and had kids. To whatever extent athletic ability and physique are inherited, the next generations were, as a result, hobbled. And the parents naturally guided their children down the paths that they themselves had followed to success in America. So there's an upward battle for Asian Americans to get onto the playing field. Jonathan Lee: While I think it's a combination of many things, I don't think it’s so much skill. I think skill can only take you so far in competitive sports. You can be a great shooter or passer in basketball, but if you lack height or physical strength, it will be very hard for you to succeed. Which brings me to the point about physique. Asian Americans are not on average that tall or bulky, and as a result we don't have as much upper body strength, which is very important in basketball. Our natural build and frame already puts us at a disadvantage. I also believe there is a negative perception of Asian Americans in team sports. Because there are almost no counterexamples, there’s this belief that Asian Americans cannot succeed at the pro level. And that's made worse by the stereotype that Asian Americans are too passive and non-aggressive. It’s unfortunate, but true. Tze Ming Mok: Well, I never got into sports because nobody ever threw me the f*cking ball during tryouts. That said, I despair a little over the need for Asian Americans to have some kind of macho, "All-American"-tough football or track & field-type sports star. It's like how China got obsessed with their middle-aged hurdler guy, as if the manhoods of over half a billion men depended on it. Nothing says "small man syndrome" like the desperate need for a big tall athlete dude to make the guys feel better about their yellow manliness. I wish they would get over it. Ping pong, FTW! Nelson Wang: Size and strength definitely matter, particular for contact team sports and especially at the professional level. I’ve known quite a few talented Asian American basketball players but athletes at the professional level are usually both incredibly talented and genetic freaks of nature (see: Yao Ming). In basketball, quickness counts for a lot, but being physically stronger than your opponent is a huge advantage in terms of getting and maintaining position, being able to finish shots, rebound, etc. And a lot of Asian Americans just aren’t as big and strong as their white and black counterparts. That’s probably changing as a result of diet and other factors, so I’d expect that more Asian Americans would be getting big and strong enough to play professionally over time, but it’ll probably take a while. As for priorities, I’d say that definitely plays a role. Most Asian American parents don’t envision their kids becoming professional athletes (I’m not sure how representative this is, but when I half-seriously tell my wife, who grew up in mainland China, that I’d want our future son to play in the NBA, she scoffs at that as a non-meaningful goal). And of course, the whole thing feeds on itself—when there are few role models, either at the professional level or in kid’s immediate families and extended families, kids don’t even consider playing and practicing, trying out for teams, getting better, etc. Michael Kim: Yes, there are some gene pool issues on our end. But one of the issues could be attributed to a lack of selfishness—generally speaking—with Asian or Asian American athletes. There is a distinct arrogance and selfishness that comes with (and is required for) participating at a professional or world-class level in sports. We all know Asian artists, musicians, doctors, etc., who are at the pinnacle of their careers who carry themselves "differently" because they know they're the best. That attitude isn't seen as much for Asians in sports. Some of it may also be attributed to our sense of "putting the team first." Sometimes to be noticed, you have to stand out and be selfish with the ball—call the clear-out and take your man to the rack. We're happy to set the pick or play help defense, but that doesn't get you a Division I scholarship or NBA contract. One other point I'd like to make is that coaches, scouts and recruiters have to be willing to be color-blind in their evaluation of players. We're less than ten years removed from cynics questioning whether Ichiro could ever succeed at the Major League level in baseball. You have to wonder if they'd fairly judge a 6'3", 175 pound Asian guard with similar talent and skillset as a black or white player. And in the case of Jeremy Lin, it doesn't appear as if they did. Brian Yang: There definitely is not one specific reason for the paltry number of Asian Americans in team sports—assuming you're talking about the pro and major-college level. It starts at home, and most families instill in a young Asian child a focus on academics, as that's what's going to be your future. Obviously, if I had a kid, I'd do the same. I've never felt that Asian parents tend to drive kids away from sports and into a different extracurricular activity, such as an instrument. In fact, I find that most, if not all Asian families, particularly where I grew up—California—encouraged sports. It's just that if you, as a kid, wanted to play ball five to six hours a day, which is what it takes to get to the top level, Mr. and Mrs. Fill-in-the-Asian-last-name weren't going to have any of that. And then again, you have the proverbial "glass ceiling" thing in that, even if you're good and get to practice lots and maybe become California's Mr. Basketball, big time programs aren't going to really give you a look because of your perceived shortcomings. I think for kids who get to college and the pros in team sports, they've really got to want it from early on; they have to get into the right hands—coaches, camps, AAU teams—to get recognition by influential basketball figureheads who can help them further their career. Regardless of background, an athlete who "has it" can get there. But it has to start with desire from within, a supportive family, and then all that hype the Adidas/Nike camps, college recruiters, ESPN, and ultimately, pro scouts give you. Why do you think there are so many Asian Americans, relatively speaking, in individual sports like golf and figure skating (see below)? Keith Chow: I think it's the same reason there are so many Asian American violinists and pianists. I think there's a prestige factor, especially for first gen parents. Golf and tennis are rich white-folk sports after all, so I think when immigrants come to America, they aspire to be just like rich white folk, so they make their kids do things they think rich white folk do. Albert Kim: Actually, I think this is—relatively speaking—a recent phenomenon. You can peg the rise of Asian Americans in figure skating to the post-Kristi Yamaguchi period—so that was around what—the mid 90s? And elite golfers like Anthony Kim and Michelle Wie have only emerged in the last few years. Michael Chang did find success in tennis, but I’m not sure that he inspired a huge rush of Asian American tennis players. Off the top of my head, I can’t name any. Again, you need role models, and then a generation later come the athletes they inspired. Bernard Chang: I have no theories about this. I can only hypothesize that individual sports like tennis, golf and figure skating, have a social status that team sports like basketball, football or baseball does not, and that might be a factor as to why parents are more open to push their children in that direction. And that's critical, because success in any sport is a direct result of spending countless hours of playing and practicing. These are motor and reaction skills that develop more rapidly during youth. As an adult, it is sometimes much harder to "learn" new things than it is as a child. What people often don't understand is the machine that goes into the collegiate athletics world in order to get your child recruited for college. It's not just about rec leagues. Around the junior high level, kids are introduced into traveling teams, or AAU teams, which pairs area-wide youths to compete in tournaments and such. You have to be selected to play on these teams, so at a certain age, if you are not part of that group, you lose out on another avenue of opportunities. Then there are heavily scouted summer camps that again, unless you are invited to play in, almost squeeze you out of a national scope. There are recruiter databases for kids, which track their participation in leagues and stats for colleges to follow. It is not as easy as scoring a 1600 on your SATs and getting into the school of your choice. There is a well-oiled gauntlet of hurdles a kid, and family, must pass to just be on the radar. A division I college basketball team has anywhere from 12-15 players on scholarship. Jonathan Lee: In terms of individual sports, I believe physique is the biggest issue. Asian Americans are not blessed with natural size and strength. Most Asian Americans are labeled “scrawny,” and despite numerous attempts for Asian Americans to bulk up, it’s simply very hard to do. Team sports such as basketball, football, and soccer require strength, size, and speed that the average Asian American doesn’t possess. Obviously, you will find exceptions. But you don’t need the same kind of size and strength for a lot of individual sports, such as golf and figure skating. You just need talent and a ton of practice. Traditionally, what are the sports that China excels in at the Olympics? Badminton, table tennis, synchronized swimming, and gymnastics. All of these sports do not require size and raw physical strength—they highlight hand-eye coordination, reflexes, agility, and grace that are not as dependent on the person being big or fast.And yes, to a lesser extent, individual sports require a lot of personal coaching and more money. And if Asian American parents see a talent in their child, they'll invest a lot to develop it. Michael Kim: I agree that it comes down to money. Asian families who send their children down this path tend to have plenty of money. When you have the resources to buy the best equipment and coaches, the chances of success are greatly enhanced. This isn't likely to work as well in a team setting. Brian Yang: I think the ice-skating/golf phenomenon is proof against the idea that Asian families don't support athletic endeavors in general. Most Asian parents would love for their kids to be famous pro athletes—read ESPN's article about Jeremy's father and his love for basketball from early on. But yeah, I think this boils down to socioeconomics. I must admit, I stole this idea from Professor Harry Edwards at Cal. If you're not familiar with Dr. Edwards, he is regarded as the leading sports sociologist in America—I took his class in college and I'm not just drinking the Kool-Aid. It makes sense. Kids from upper-middle class backgrounds have access to sports that are more expensive to engage in: Golf, winter sports, tennis—sports whose startup costs are astronomical considering the equipment and the lessons, sports where there isn't this absorption of costs by a team of people. When you play basketball and football, growing up, all you need is usually just a ball, a field, and the other neighborhood kids. We've all grown up with athletic idols who aren't Asian or Asian American—yet does it mean something different when we see someone who looks like us on the field of play? Does it matter if the person isn't a "star" but simply a role-player? What would it mean for Asian American fans if there were a legit Asian American superstar in the NBA? Do you find yourself more likely to root for Asians than non-Asians in pro sports in general? Keith Chow: You're damn right it means something! Having a real presence in the NBA might not erase racism on the courts, but it would definitely inspire more kids, both Asian and non-Asian, to believe anyone can play. And in order to be that inspiration, the dude has to be a star and not just a role player. I mean how many jerseys did Wang Zhizhi sell? Basketball is the only sport where players are completely exposed. There are no helmets or pads in the way. You're just in a tank top and shorts, so the visual alone of an Asian American guy flying up and down an NBA court is powerful on its own. Albert Kim: Abso-frigging-lutely! I was a baseball fan growing up, and I remember getting a thrill whenever I saw a highlight clip featuring Lenn Sakata. I was a diehard Mets fan living in New York, and yet I couldn’t wait for news about the starting shortstop for the Baltimore Orioles. Could you blame me? He was an Asian player in the major leagues! He was like the Sulu of sports. Or maybe more accurately, the George Takei of sports. After Lenn, the next prominent Asian athlete I can remember was John Lee, the placekicker for UCLA. When he got drafted by the NFL, first round or early second, I believe, it was a big deal. An Asian player in the NFL? So he was a kicker. Still, to me, a big deal. You have to remember, there was no one like us out on the field of play. And keep in mind that for many people—both men and women—sports define masculinity. The implicit message is that Asian men just aren’t as manly as black or white men. Remember the whole thing about the asexuality of Asian males? It’s been used to explain everything from the lack of Asian male newscasters to the relative rarity of Caucasian women-Asian male marriages, as opposed to the reverse. This stereotype is so pervasive that people still think it’s acceptable to make jokes about it. Not too long ago when I was at Sports Illustrated, Rick Reilly covered one of the golf majors, and in his piece he talked about how the tournament directors tried to “Tiger-proof” the course by making it longer. There had been some media criticism that such a move was racist. After the event, Reilly wrote that perhaps it was racist...because none of the top ten finishers were Asian. The joke, as bad as it was, was based on the assumption that Asian athletes are weaker than others, so they couldn’t drive it as far. The real objectionable thing was, it wasn’t even true! For one thing, Tiger Woods, who ended up winning the tournament, is half-Asian, as we all know. But like others, Reilly likes to overlook that fact. By the way, racism in sports coverage is an entire topic unto itself. I can’t tell you the number of racist experiences I had during my years working for SI—both from athletes as well as from other sports journalists. Everything from jokes about eating dogs to outright slurs. Bernard Chang: Of course it matters. We live in such a visual society these days; any symbol of recognition is critical. While many would say that it shouldn't matter—and, yes, in a perfect world it wouldn't—you can't discount the importance of seeing a "familiar face." At the same time, there is also more to just seeing someone who looks like you, it's also hearing them speak in English. Hideo Nomo did wonders to break the racial barrier in baseball, but the guy always spoke through an interpreter, which does little for me as an Asian American. Jerry Ma: There already is a legit Asian superstar in the NBA. Yao Ming is no joke. He's a franchise player. And yes, I did root for him in the beginning simply because he was Chinese—but now I see other people rooting for him because he is just that good. I do think it's important to see people that look like you on TV, because unfortunately, we are what we see. Asian people were never looked at as athletes. But now with Yao Ming and Yi Jianlian, they're really letting people see that we can have a physical presence as well. Jonathan Lee: I follow sports religiously, and I have my favorite teams to follow. But I also follow individual players on other teams, and yes, I do root for people of my own race in pro sports in general. There is a sense of pride when a player succeeds at the pro level; to me, he or she doesn't even have to be a “star.” In the NBA, there’s obviously Yao Ming who carries the flag for China. But I’ve also closely followed the careers of Yi Jianlian, Wang Zhizhi, and Sun Yue. And in the NHL, I follow Devin Setoguchi and Brandon Yip, a young promising Asian-Canadian for Colorado. Brian Yang: There's no doubt that when I see an Asian face on the field of play, I'm suddenly more interested. Whether they are a role-player or a star, I'm interested, but obviously, being a sports nut, if he or she is a star, it means everything. We grow up loving Bird, Jordan, LeBron. But when Yao Ming came along, I think it goes without saying that seeing an Asian player on the court, especially as a star, stirs the senses in a different way, because we ethnically identify with that person. As much as we want to dodge the race issue in America, we can't. Using it as a crutch sucks, but that's a whole 'nother issue. Supporting and reveling in a sports star who is Asian is a no-brainer to me, because we're so underrepresented in that area. If an Asian American were to get onto the right NBA team, and let's say he was a superstar, it would be that team's marketing director's dream. I know for a fact that you would see an upswing in your season ticket subscribers with last names Wang, Lee, Kim, or Nguyen. But as far as rooting for Asians more than non-Asians? I love my Philadelphia 76ers. If an Asian American was on the Celtics and he went against my Sixers, I'd love for him to play well, but want my Sixers to win. It's still team first, race second. Credentials aside, I have a couple of points to add: [1] Filipinos love to play, and do compete for roster spots at the high school level with reasonable success. I observe lots of peer and family support, as well. [2] Contacts inform me that Asians are more integrated in sports in Hawai'i. You might want to add some correspondents who grew up in our 50th state. [3] Try substituting "Mexican" for Asian in your article, and I think you won't see it change much at all... Keep on! nice discussion, you probably should have had someone with some background on the Nikkei basketball leagues. Most of the teams were founded on the idea that most Japanese kids back then did not have a chance to play varsity or team sports as most of the parents came from farming backgrounds. That being said when I was growing up they had a ton of Asian American basketball players especially in the Bay Area and Los Angeles. In SF they had Eddie Chow (Washington HS) who went onto to play for USF and was originally rated a better player than Phil Smith who was on the same high school team. That team also had Dave Ota who went on to play for UC Davis and Phil Ching who went onto play for Menlo College. Lowell HS had Royston Dea as their starting guard. Another player right before that time was Ronald Dere, he was the leading scorer for the AAA league at over 30ppg. At that time I believe Bruce Tsutsui was playing for the champion Berkeley HS team that featured John Lambert. Dave Hokyo played for the San Jose State team back in the 70's, and Dave Nishimoto played for SF State on the Championship team back in the 60's and Robert Midzuno played for SF State in the late 70's and Ted Ohashi sr played for the Cal Bears way back when. These are only some of the guys I can remember off the top of my head and this does not include all the recent people and all the hapas who are under the radar such as Cory Gaines and Robert Swift. Regards Scott

Ballers of Another Color: An Asian American Roundtable on Race and Sports, PART TWO What do you think of Jeremy Lin, the Taiwanese American guard from Harvard—about his chances, his type of game, and what he represents for the future of the sport? Keith Chow: I already mentioned Jeremy and the reasons I already stated are the reason I'm very much invested in his career right now. The biggest thing is because he's Asian American. So unlike Yao or Yi Jianlian, he's probably experienced the same things I've experienced playing basketball in the States, so I can totally identify with him. Also, he's an athletic wing player as opposed to a seven-footer (as much as I love Yao, sometimes it's hard watching him lumber up and down the court) with a fierce competitive streak and an ability to single-handedly take over a game. Guards always have the ball in their hands, so it's easier for the casual fan to appreciate the things he does on the court. Also, the NBA is no longer a big man's game. Guys who play like Yao have been phased out, and Team China has not developed wing players the way they did big men, which is why watching them play internationally is so disconcerting. The other reason is that if Lin not only succeeds, but also excels in the League, than that'll only mean more opportunity for other Asian American basketball players, because scouts will start paying attention instead of dismissing the Asian American kids. Steve Chin: Jeremy has got a legit shot at the pros—albeit it's a long shot, like from half court. But it would mean a lot for the community if he made it. It's uncharted territory for Asian Americans—to play pro ball in the modern era. He would become an instant role model for Asian American athletes. I'm rooting for him. Albert Kim: Though I haven’t seen him play yet and frankly, don’t know a whole lot beyond one or two articles I’ve read, I love the idea of Jeremy and what he represents. An Asian American basketball player competing in a Division I school who’s also a genuine NBA prospect? That’s a first in my lifetime. And I know for certain there’s a whole generation of kids out there who are watching him and realizing that it is possible to compete at that level. Bernard Chang: I think Jeremy and the publicity he has received is tremendous, and I applaud every time I hear about him. Whether he makes it into the NBA or not, he has already placed a spotlight on an area that needed much attention. At the same time, don't forget about the youngest head coach in the NBA, Erik Spoelstra, a Filipino American. He currently coaches Dwyane Wade and the Miami Heat and is the successor to legendary coach Pat Riley. Erik played Division I basketball for the University of Portland, and was the starting point guard all four years, averaging 9.2 points per game, and named West Coast Conference Freshman of the Year. He joined the Heat staff as the team's video coordinator in 1995 and worked his way up through the ranks to become the team's head coach in 2008. Jerry Ma: I am super excited for Jeremy. He's a good player who has a solid all-around game, and I think he has a good chance to be drafted in the mid-second round of the draft. I do believe he has a chance to play and have a career in the NBA too. As for what he represents...I'd say that right now he represents hope for other Asian American athletes. At the end of the day, all that matters is your ability to play and perform in sports—it doesn't matter what color you are, which makes it probably the most honest form of work there is. That being said though: Jeremy will show other Asians that it's possible to achieve things. Bill Yao: Would love for him to become a NBA star but from what I can tell from his YouTube clips he doesn't seem like he has superstar potential. I also don't think most Americans would distinguish American-born from foreign-born Asians like Yao Ming. Jonathan Lee: I’ve followed the career of Jeremy Lin ever since he played at Palo Alto High in high school and through his four years at Harvard. He’s obviously a very gifted player and should have received at least one Division I scholarship offer coming out of college. I truly think that his race affected the decisions in a lot of coaches. He’s a great player—always one of the best on the court, and well-rounded. The fact that he was in the top 10 in every statistical category last year in the Ivy League proves this. His basketball IQ is very high. However, projecting him to the NBA game is rather difficult, because he’s more of a combo guard, not really a true point guard, and he’s not the kind of scorer you need to be a shooting guard. If he plays in the NBA, I'm not sure where he’ll play. But Lin has done a lot to increase his visibility. He’s received a ton of exposure on the national scene, with a feature in Time, and numerous features on ESPN. Now I think his future depends on a lot of things, particularly how Harvard performs in the Ivy League. The Ivy League will only send one team to the tournament—either Harvard or Cornell. If he can somehow lead Harvard to an upset of Cornell and take his team to the NCAA tournament, that will do a lot for his exposure, and his chances to impress people will increase. I think he has a chance to be drafted, but I think it's a long shot. He will most definitely be invited to work out with various NBA teams, though, and be given the opportunity to showcase himself by playing in the Summer League. If he doesn't get signed by a NBA team, I can easily see him playing in the NBA Development League or in a pro league in Europe. Nelson Wang: I ribbed you in my initial response to this email by pointing out the unusualness of calling Lin “Taiwanese American” rather than Chinese American, but I think that’s emblematic itself of how important it is to have role models of your own ethnicity and national origin, and how the closer that role model gets to your specific background, the more meaningful it is and the more pride it induces. For me, I’d probably refer to Lin as Chinese American, while for non-Chinese Asian, he’s probably more often described as Asian American—we are all Jeremy Lin!. Michael Kim: Lin will have to overcome stereotypes on several levels. Gaining acceptance as an Asian American is one but I don't know if people who have already "accepted" Yao Ming would know the difference. But in a sense, going to Harvard hurts him. If he played at a Big 12 or Big East school, there wouldn't be many questions about his skill set as compared to other college players. And he'll also have to overcome stereotypes from coaches who want players who are smart, but not too smart—as crazy as this sounds, it's true. This reminds me of a story James Brown of CBS Sports once shared with me. Don't know how many of you are aware that Brown is a former Harvard basketball star. He's 6'6"; he grew up in a rough area of D.C., but his mother sent him to DeMatha High School in suburban Maryland. He was offered scholarships by John Wooden, Bob Knight, Dean Smith and all the top coaches at the time, but his mother made him attend Harvard. After graduating, he was drafted by the Atlanta Hawks. At the end of the preseason camp, he and another player were competing for the final roster spot; they were dead even, but Brown was cut. The reason: He was told by a coach that he was "too smart," and that he would be able to get a job with his Harvard degree—but the other guy had nothing but basketball. Brian Yang: I've been following Jeremy since his senior year in high school. I never thought back then we'd be sitting here talking about his chances in the NBA, even though he was the Northern California Player of the Year at the time. Over his college career, I've seen him mature as a player to the point now where I think he has an all-too-real shot at the League. He's on many NBA scouts' lists, and the way Jim Calhoun, Steve Lavin, and Chad Ford have been pumping him up only helps his shot. As I said before, you have to have respected B-ball figureheads going to bat for you to raise your profile and your stock. All the recent publicity he's getting is great, and helps his chances, but he still has to deliver. At this point, I think a smart NBA GM should be able to see that Jeremy would be the perfect player to come in off the bench, run your team for 15 to 20 minutes a game and play great defense. I don't know that Jeremy will ever excel as a scorer in the NBA—he has a flaw in his jump shot and needs to work that out—but as a guard to run your offense, as someone with uncanny court awareness, as someone who has always come up with clutch plays in clutch situations, the kid has it. Right now, he is a very, very rough Steve Nash in the making I believe—an unrecognized, smallish guard from a small school. I think he could do everything Nash does, other than maybe score 30 a game and win MVP twice. But a poor man's version of Nash still isn't bad. If you want to get really analytical, peep this. Have you played in an Asian American-only sports league in the past? Why or why not? What do you think those leagues represent? If someone could compete effectively in a multiracial league, why would they want to participate in an ethnic-only league? Do those leagues formally exclude non-Asians, and if so, under what rules or parameters? Keith Chow: I never played in an Asian-only league simply because I never lived anywhere that had one, at least not officially. I've played a lot of pick-up games that ended up all Asian. But I do have friends and family who have participated. I don't see anything wrong with them, primarily because they're just offshoots of ethnic communities. Steve Chin: The J-league (A.K.A. "Asian league") is a huge part of my life and community here in the East Bay. Growing up in Queens in the Sixties, I had no idea. I played street ball with my non-Asian buddies in the playgrounds. Didn't play organized ball until high school. But on the West Coast, Japanese Americans have been running their own youth and adult leagues since they were let out of the internment camps. It has deep roots, and it keeps the generations of Japanese Americans connected through sports. It's a significant cultural touchstone for the community: Four of the fathers on the team I currently coach played in J-league themselves in their youth. When my daughter hit second grade, Reverend Ken Yamada, our journalist-turned-Buddhist-minister friend, encouraged me to check out the Ohtani basketball program connected to his Buddhist church. His daughter was the same age as my daughter, and they ended up playing together on a co-ed team in the Japanese church league. After the first year, I ended up as the coach of the team. I loved it for all the reasons girls should play sports. I also loved it because my daughter was surrounded by other Asian athletes, both boys and girls, and at practices she'd see the older teenage girls playing serious hoops. It was inspiring for her and for me. Where else can Asian girls find that? What ends up happening—after years of organized coaching and competition—is that now our Asian girls are among the top ballers in our middle and high schools here; four out of the five starters at my daughter's school come out of the Asian league, and our high school basketball teams are dominated by Asian girls. It's a pretty impressive sight. And they're competitive with Bay Area schools of similar size. Our family has also embraced the whole Asian American community aspect tied to the league. As lame as it sounds, I realized I found the "village" that would help me raise my child when we discovered our basketball program. I discovered Asian American peers who value both sports and spam musubi, and, oh yeah, sportsmanship. Who knew? Our team families have become our extended family. I've served on the Ohtani board for years. Our program has 11 teams this year, with players ranging in age from 6 to16. I built and run theprogram's website that might be of interest to you for background. Two years ago, my daughter joined another Asian basketball program () in addition to Ohtani. It's a tournament team that competes around Northern California and beyond, against other Asian all-star teams. And yes, I coach that team too.... Yes, Asian ball has taken over my life. Pretty much every weekend from September through June, we have a league game or a two-day tournament somewhere in California or Nevada. I'm in the gym four days a week coaching. And that's not even including my own sports! Bernard Chang: I do not personally believe in the benefits of Asian American only leagues/tournaments and have never participated in one. But at the same time, I can understand that they might provide an athletic outlet for someone who might otherwise not have played in a situation outside his or her community. A mostly Asian league in Chinatown is the result of the demographics of the immediate community; it's the same, in effect, as a church league or other similar organization. But it's important to remember that in these leagues, players actually pay to play; these aren't employment opportunities that exclude people based on their race and background. Jerry Ma: I've played in some college basketball tournaments organized by Asian American groups, but the tournaments I've played in were open to all ethnicities. And it really doesn't make a difference who's guarding me—I'm going to do what I'm going to do either way. I really believe sports are as honest as anything in life. Bottom line is, if you're good, you're good. Jonathan Lee: I have never played in an ethnic league, but I know a lot of people who have. A popular league is the North American Chinese Basketball Association that runs a very competitive tournament every year featuring Chinese teams from across the country. The only rule is that every player must be at least 25% Chinese (one grandparent must be 100% Chinese), which is not really that stringent a rule. There's also a Bay Area youth Chinese league I'm aware of that's very popular. I don't have anything against such ethnic leagues. Most of the times, they're just a bunch of people from the same community who want to compete against each other. There’s a sense of camaraderie and closeness in them. And a lot of my friends who play in these leagues also play in multiethnic leagues as well. Brian Yang: Playing in Asian American basketball leagues has been a part of my life for as long as I can remember. Growing up in California, you're exposed pretty quickly to leagues and tournaments up and down the coast that originally sprouted up as a result of the Japanese being sent to concentration camps during World War II. From that unfortunate era, the Nisei Athletic Union eventually came into being. It was a way for people of the community to recreate together in baseball, basketball, etc., given that they were being barred from society at large. Chinese American teams, Indo-Pakistani tournaments, and other Asian American-only leagues followed suit in due time. Today, there are thriving, long-standing annual national tournaments and leagues nationwide—in Canada, too—in the Korean, Filipino, Chinese, Japanese, and Indo-Pak communities. These groups represent tradition and community. They're affinity groups, nothing more, nothing less. I once asked Jeremy if he ever played in those tournaments back home growing up and he said he did a couple of times and he had lots of friends who did play in them—in fact, his brother still does today—but that he didn't really participate too much. I think that since he excelled at the game so more than the average Asian American amateur player, he was probably pulled into situations like AAU, or other open institutions, and didn't have much time for playing in community leagues—he had bigger fish to fry, so to speak. Ethnic-only leagues are recreational by nature. They feature good players and decent competition, but Jeremy had to be playing against the best of the best to keep honing his game. That said, former Kansas star turned NBA lottery pick Rex Walters, who is half Japanese, used to play in those tournaments all the time before he went to Kansas, and a few times during and after, I believe. I think he liked the camaraderie he had with his friends since he grew up playing with them. And guess what? Rex's teams didn't always win! The Asian American leagues/tournaments don't try to formally exclude non-Asians. It's a tricky thing, no doubt, and they do have rules that mandate that players must be of 25% Asian descent, but if anything, again, it's about preserving a community affinity group that has been around forever and a day. Have you heard of the All-American Basketball Alliance, the attempt to launch an all-white, American-born-only league in order to allegedly create a "fundamentals-based," "no street ball" competitive environment? What do you think about the idea? Keith Chow: My biggest gripe with the AABA is number one, it's a "professional" organization, as opposed to community-based ethnic rec leagues. So to exclude people based on race should actually be illegal. But secondly, the premise behind the league is pretty freakin' racist. The founder has said that he created the league to promote "fundamentals" and to move away from the "street ball" that "non-whites" play. He basically said that since blacks are naturally athletic, they use that to make up for their lack of fundamentals. Okay, if these aren't code words, I don't know what are. Hell, those words are barely even coded. And I also like that the league is only for "natural born citizens" yet he cites Dirk Nowitski (German) and Steve Nash (Canadian) as the only "fundamental" basketball players in the NBA. Albert Kim: I read about this thing last week. I choose to ignore knuckleheads like this, the same way I dismiss out of hand the KKK and other organizations that are designed to deliberately provoke and foster hate. Bernard Chang: It's a racist organization under the disguise of an athletic organization. That the commissioner of the league, Don Lewis, had the audacity to back the existence of his league because quote, "people of white, American-born citizens are in the minority now," unquote, shows the complete idiocy of his scam. Really, white people are minorities now? Besides, basketball was invented by a Canadian, and they're excluded from this league as well. Jonathan Lee: I do have issues with the “All-American Basketball Alliance,” and I do believe it is racist because of its intent. Their outright mission is to create a “fundamentals-based, no street ball” competitive environment. This is a direct affront on African American players who play a “street ball”-type of game. It’s not just a group of Caucasians players who want to play with each other, but rather it's a group of players who have something against the way a certain ethnicity plays the game. What about if you have an African American player who doesn't play a “street ball” way, but plays “fundamentals-based” ball? Would this person be allowed to play? Not according to the league rules. Brian Yang: When this idea came out, I was asked, "How is this different than an All-Asian American league? How is what an Asian league stands for different than all-white league?" It's unfortunate, because the founder of this league is so obviously racist by the fact of what he's saying. He may not mean it to be harmful or slanderous, but what he's saying is the essence of racism. He thinks that whites are the minority in America now? Oh, brother. The fact is, Asian American leagues were originally founded as a result of racism with the concentration camps. Over time, the leagues became tradition. One can argue that these leagues are "racist" in their own way, but I don't think we're comparing apples to apples here: There is no racism without power. My friend who was giving me a hard time with this—and he is an Asian American who played in all-Asian nine-man volleyball tournaments growing up, but now thinks the tradition should be banished as it doesn't help promote unity and equality to all—then asked if that's how I felt if they had a "whites-only" league in China, basically flipping the idea on its head; would that be acceptable? I just wanted to smack him. Smartass.

David Sedaris thinks Chinese people (and food) are repulsive, which makes me sad, because I used to like David Sedaris. What do you do when a literary idol decides to take a huge metaphorical dump on the culture and civilization from whence your ancestors emerged? I'm not sure I've figured out the answer to that question yet, but I'm grappling with it. You see, master mock-and-droller David Sedaris, who's unequivocally one of the great essayists of our time and a personal favorite of mine, has chosen to take his parodic talent and point it at China, its people and its food. Except the piece he's written for the U.K.'s Guardian newspaper is less amusing than it is venomous, xenophobic and dissipated. Which, to be fair, describes many of his genuinely funny essays as well. The difference, I think, is that in his adventures in France, Japan and, well, Raleigh, North Carolina, he is usually as self-deprecating as he is other-; he comes off as a general, equal-opportunity misanthrope in the classic Molièrean vein. He also actually bothers to create human characters and enliven them with dialogue, and often wit — they become his comic foils, or he theirs, in a widening outspiral of mannered absurdity. Not so here. Sedaris announces from the outset that he dislikes Chinese food — "I'll eat it if the alternative means starving" — and thinks of visiting China itself as an unpleasant prospect: "'I have to go to China.' I told people this in the way I might say, 'I need to insulate my crawl space' or, 'I've got to get these moles looked at.' That's the way it felt, though. Like a chore." But he goes anyway, after spending a week in vastly more civilized (but no less exotic) Tokyo — which he extolls as being sublime, delicate and sanitary. And then, China. China, as described by Sedaris, is a land of phlegm-hawking savages who eat animals that no right thinking person would consume, and eat parts of those animals that no sane person would consider, preparing and presenting them in the most foul and revolting fashion possible. Also, Chinese people shit everywhere, they practically bathe in the stuff, and of course they have no problem eating shit, or at least things that eat shit. In fact, shit, in its many forms — stinking, floating, abandoned, stepped in or, in his mind, coyly tucked into entrees — ends up being the closest thing Sedaris finds to the satirical counter his prose always seeks out. He and shit engage in a kind of capoiera-like martial ballet throughout the 2700-odd word piece (though mucus and urine do occasionally enter the fray); by the middle of the essay, Sedaris's preoccupation has become less shocking than annoying, and by its final throes, less annoying than tedious. (He's brilliantly noted before that "Shit is the tofu of cursing and can be molded to whichever condition the speaker desires"; the larding-up of his narrative here with shit references points to what this essay really is, e.g., bulk filler with limited taste and nutritional value.) So look, — a sign that Chinese aren't exactly unaware that the "delicacies" that send prim Westerners to their fainting couches are a little off the beaten path. But Chinese are far from the only culture that eats weird food, and fuck,, was the offspring of necessity — invention midwived by destitution. If you're hungry enough, rodents will start to look tasty, as will chicken claws, stray innards and balls. And once you've eaten them long enough, all these things evolve into nostalgic signifiers — especially after you've pulled yourself out of poverty. They go from things you have to eat all the time to things you choose to eat once in a while, to remind yourself you don't have to eat them all the time. And this is what's truly ugly about your piece,. But. If you read the piece, you'll note that unlike most of his stories, there's not a single real Chinese voice — nothing that gives his erstwhile hosts agency or humanity. The closest thing is a woman who notes that it's disgusting to blow your nose into a handkerchief and stick it back in your pocket. (Which, frankly, it is.) Otherwise, the Chinese are silent savages throughout. Contrast this with Anthony Bourdain or even Andrew Zimmern's travels through the country, where even as they point out the weirdness of the culture, they do so with respect and an open mind, and they give local people plenty of time and space to explain, contextualize and even crack wise. In fact, the native folk in Bourdain's "No Reservations" China segment were among the funniest and most appealing people onscreen. It's possible to do this kind of thing and be amusing and not trash an entire civilization. And also, I think the piece is just lousy writing, and I frankly expect more from him. This is one of the purpose of the hankerchief, blowing your nose. It's actually hygienic if done properly. What is the alternative? Blowing into your hands? Maybe blowing it on your shirt? If you're concerned about stuff from the hankerchief getting into your pockets or hands you can make sure the clean sides are out. It is generally a last resort if you can't go to a bathroom and blow your nose. Some people carry around a small packet of tissues which is fine but hankerchiefs are more compact. Either way, far more cleaner than just doing it in the street. It's not hard to do and it's been taught for so long. I haven't read Sedaris' article but 'hawking' and spitting in public is rather gross and having lived in NYC over the years, Chinese are the biggest offenders (eastern europeans probably the next). Not all Chinese do this, but far too often if you hear that sound, it's probably a Chinese. More than likely they're mainlander. Comparing Sedaris to Bourdain and Zimmern is like apples to oranges but hey I guess he struck too close to home for you.... The comparison between Sedaris and Bourdain/Zimmern was not a literary one, but related specifically to how they each chose to approach documenting their experiences with the decidedly foreign culture of China. Sedaris is free to be as bitchy and xenophobic as he likes — it's a modus operandi for him, and usually it works. On the other hand, I'm also free to criticize him as I see fit, correct? Just like you're free to write anonymous comments to my critique despite ignoring the source material. That's the great thing about America — we're just so awesomely free. Unlike, say, China. What should I create an account on your blog? Fatten your ego with more readerships? Come on the only reason you doing is blog is to stroke your ego. Sure the euphemism is 'I'm freely expressing my views' but key MY. I, Me, Mine. Then again this is the main reason behind the success of Facebook and Twitter. That's another story. Noticed you ignore my comments about public spitting? Too prim for you no? I write this blog because I write for a living, and the blog is a useful place to develop ideas or respond in real time to things that aren't timely for my column. It's like on-the-job training for the thing that pays my rent. So, no, my ego isn't precisely the only reason I do this blog. I want to ask you this honestly, however: If you don't like this blog, why would you bother reading and commenting on it? It's like spraying graffiti on buildings that you don't like — you don't live there, you don't work there, but you feel the need to deface it because it offends your aesthetics somehow? I've never really understood anonymous drive-by commenters. It's one thing if you want to have a dialogue and be a part of a community, or have a vested interest in the topics or individuals at hand. But if you think this blog is solely "stroking" of my ego, really, no one is forcing you to read it, any more than anyone forced David Sedaris to go to China. It's your choice. Which means that you can engage in conversation about the topics, but if your only interest is to disparage me, nothing's holding you here, right? As for spitting and hygiene, sure, no question, China has issues — the same issues that afflicted the Western industrialized countries in the 19th century, albeit on a much larger scale. Things like public sanitation, consumer protections, social conventions that prevent spread of illness — all of those were responses the the massive technological and economic advances the West underwent in the transition from a largely dispersed agrarian society to a highly concentrated urban one. And all of this has been happening in China within the space of a decade, and with far more people involved. This is not to excuse public spitting, but it is to point out the amazing hypocrisy of an upper-class Westerner mocking the hygiene habits of, in Sedaris's words, "square-faced peasants." Well, a hundred and fifty years ago, Sedaris's were square-faced peasants (maybe less). For what it's worth, China's second industrial revolution is occurring right now, in the blink of an eye, and the last things that are going to change, if history is any indication, are social mores. I think this piece just proves that he's lost his material. His writing used to be funny because he was in such a state of pathetic desperation- a dug addict enrolled in art school in his 30's, or a migrant apple picker hitch hiking through the North West and getting abducted by men with dildo enshrined bedrooms... Now he is no longer desperate and destitute. There probably is not too much shocking about his life and, thus, worthy to write about (his last two books were about talking animals), so he thinks he can be edgy again and gain some publicity by writing a vitriolic and knowingly controversial piece, reducing a world power into a mass of unsanitary savages. I think it just shows the end is near for Sedaris. In this age of mature, advanced, entrenched Political Correctness, being scrupulously PC in the Anglosphere is a no-brainer. Alas, there is one notable exception. Asians, especially Chinese, both Chinese in China, and ethnic Chinese in the West, are not covered by the PC umbrella. When it comes to Chinese, the requirement that ostensibly civilized and educated elites tiptoe around the emotional sensitivities of minorities, goes totally out the window. Chinese are fair game. For Chinamen, especially Chinese males, it's open season. Even auteur John Hughes, with his extraordinary regard for the sensitivities of American teenagers, showed extraordinary regard only for the sensitivities of white American teenagers. He had no qualms whatsoever about "taking a dump" as you so aptly put it, on Asians, with his repellent and racist "Long Duk Dong" caricature. And so it is with David Sedaris. The fact is, such expressions of ugly bigotry say more about the author than they do about their ostensible targets. What David Sedaris did, ironically, was to take a public dump. What David Sedaris did, was exactly what he was denouncing. What David Sedaris did, was make a public confession, about his own coprophilia, his own preoccupation with feces. I always try to remind myself, that hate consumes the one who hates from within. Those who fail to understand this simple truth, will remain prisoners of their own inner demons. Just as virtue is its own reward, so bigotry is its own punishment. Bevin Chu For anyone who think it's about the food, it's not. Mr. Sedaris was only disgusted by a dish of hacked up organ meat. On other occasions, it was the perceived lack of sanitation that robbed him of his appetite. A 'C' sanitation grade? I know of two other places that received 'C' sanitation grades. Gilt and A Voce, Michelin starred restaurants in Manhattan. If Mr. Sedaris were an equal opportunity germaphobe, he would have starved to death a long time ago. That's just some clannish proclivity towards censorship talking, snidely. Just think, if you were a high party official, you could have Sedaris disappear for an unspecified amount of time, after which he would be expected to mind his manners. That's just some clannish proclivity towards censorship talking, snidely. Just think, if you were a high party official, you could have Sedaris disappear for an unspecified amount of time, after which he would be expected to mind his manners. Anyways, I really dunno what you are going on about. Where did I say I didn't like your blog? I only came in after finding this article. Defacing? Really now. Let me guess, the other comments that match your POV are beautifying your precious literary landscape? What do you have against graffiti? It can be beautiful too you know. Are you really that sensitive? Were you one of those thin skinned kids in school who'd have a meltdown and scream 'OMG everyone's being so mean, boohooo!' . It's not like I'm blowing my nose in your hankerchief and putting it back into the pockets of your Banana Republic chinos. Why can I and others not comment on one article and then leave? Maybe your other articles don't interest me? Do I want to be part of a community where the creator thinks Obama is Asian American? I came in to say: too much hot air over nothing. I read Sedaris' article, I don't see the fuss (does that make me a hater?). You admitted to knowing his M.O.. From his books you can tell he's not exactly the most open minded person. Why are you so offended by his piece now? From the get go he admitted to not liking the cuisine but still went down and gave things a try. He could have easily eaten at PF Changs and called it george... Let me summarize your long winded article. "Hey David Sedaris, I liked your books, probably because you are popular and well I like to follow the mainstream. However, you've written something I don't like because well you're taking jabs at my people. It's okay for you to make fun of other groups but not mine. To top it off, you didn't do it in a fashion I prefer. Thus, I hate you! p.s. you're probably not going to read this but I'll gets some traffic anyways!" To the commenter about going on about PC and open season on 'chinamen'. Can you really say Chinese or even Asian Americans have been really PC or open minded towards other groups? It goes both ways my friend. In general I can say yes Asian-Americans have been very supportive of other groups of color. Asian-American political groups have always supported affirmative-action in universities, even when in general those policies did not always benefit Asian-Americans as directly as Latinos and African-Americans. (Aff-Act benefits everyone, but it takes historical perspective to understand why.) I think Jeff did an awesome job explaining why this piece was problematic: ." I'm African-American, I like David too, from what I read and heard of him I don't remember him talking about any ethnic group this negatively in this extensive of a manner before, because if he had I am sure i would have noticed that. I'm sure Jeff would have noticed it too, but right we're talking about what David did right now. Are you saying people aren't allowed to say they are offended? Why can't he say on his blog he didn't like what David stated? Why does this seem to be bothering you so much. Or is it people of color can't objectively criticize anything in regards to race, because we have poc bias disease? Lark It's home to the world's oldest civilization. There is architecture, arts, and indeed a lot of cuisine to be enjoyed. Not to mention the varied landscape. It's a shame Sedaris didn't voice his disgust to his hosts, who surely could've taken him out of Beijing or wherever they were and seen the many other things China has to offer. More than that is this. Much as the man is a satirist, he's a well-respected member of the "liberal team" (if we have to label him politically). By focusing only on the negative, he gives actual bigots an excuse to vent their overtly racist opinions as "hey, I'm just telling it like it is!" THAT'S the truly worrisome part for me, in terms of what people take away from this. I wouldn't try joke about how much I hate homosexuals because I'm disgusted by anal sex. Anal sex is a tiny part of being a homosexual man. It's not my cup of tea but that's my problem. We can't write people off just because they do something we disagree with or don't understand. This is a tactic employed by many people on the political right. Things have value even if we don't "get" it. Because he's so respected, he's given a much higher profile platform from which to speak. However he actually intended the piece to be received, it'll be widely interpreted in many ways. It gives true racists a liberal voice to couch their beliefs behind. Does Sedaris really want to be THAT kind of mouthpiece? Because that's what's going to happen. ." We here in Hong Kong have largely similar views on mainlanders hygiene, although much less problems with the food - we're Cantonese, after all, and eat stuff that many mainlanders find disgusting. Apologies if you're not really juk seng, but this post does read like a typical American born Chinese getting all offended in a typically American way about honest thoughts on aspects of modern Chinese mainland culture that are neither racist nor inaccurate and are actually shared by a good number of people of the same ethnicity as those disparaged. Right now, anyone who knows anything about China knows that the big coastal cities are full of displaced rural migrants — who are very poor, with relatively little education, and who are effectively a "ghost population" without most legal rights. You see, to move to a new city in China, you need to change something known as a hu kou, which is often impossible — or very expensive. But the poverty is so great in many rural areas that people move anyway, making them ineligible in their new cities for everything from healthcare to schooling and daycare for their kids to subsidized housing. The only jobs they can get are the most menial service, factory and construction jobs, including in many cases cleaning up after wealthy urbanites. So there's a combination of culture shock (many migrant Chinese have never seen seated flush toilets — it's all squat toilets in the rural areas) and, frankly, some degree of rebellious spite involved in some of these things Sedaris is talking about and that some of you have seen. Why would you take care of a city that doesn't want you and where you're treated as little better than a beast of burden? A lot of migrants just want to earn enough money to be able to be comfortable once they go back home. The city is something they have to survive to be able to feed their parents and kids — it's not their world. That's not to excuse these things — but it IS to say that the idea that it's somehow a cultural thing specific to Chinese is ludicrous and willfully blind. And it's also to say that things are changing incredibly fast, even for these rural migrants. Don't make any quick, stereotypical assumptions about what China or Chinese are like today, because they won't be the same as you expect even a decade from now. I don't know if that changed your point of view, but if you read the above, maybe it at least led you to think about the situation differently: Instead of saying "Chinese are dirty and gross," you might think, "Chinese are poor. But they're getting richer." But hey, feel free to keep your mind in the 19th century while the rest of the world zooms through the 21st. China is a large, complex and fast growing (in some parts) place. However, the idea that any article written on Chinese culture or the experience of some aspect of modern China today has to contain a mandatory disclaimer saying "but hey, these former peasants are going into the future fast!" is a guarantee for boredom. Sedaris is a comedian, not an anthropologist, sociologist or economist. And does anyone these days NOT realise that China is not a nation of former peasants benefiting from rapid economic growth? Anyway, I do agree with the statement "But [the Chinese are] getting richer". They are also getting more civilised - I heard a mainland tourist in downstairs at IFC in HK today hawking up (Sedaris's cappucino machine analogy is not something I've thought of before, but now realise how accurate it is), but then he spat the gobbet in the rubbish bin rather than on the floor. That's progress! I arrived at your site via my friend Adam’s RandomWalks.com site. I always find Adam’s links, comments and posts, if not insightful, inspiring or poignant, than at least thought provoking. I’ve read through your full SFGate post a few times now, and then I read the Sedaris piece. While I think understand your reaction as a Chinese descendant who feels like his heritage and people are misunderstood and maligned, I think you’re missing the point. As usual with Sedaris, he’s mocking our own ignorance and shock at the culturally different as “Americans” in showing his own reaction, which is also hilarious, to the world around him. I’ve also read quite a number of his writings over the years, listened to his pieces on This American Life, and I’ve always enjoyed them because of the poignancy and tension he creates in walking the fine line of the snarky, misanthropic or self-deprecating and just describing the reality of his (albeit edited) experience. It feels as if we’re there. This essay on The Guardian was no different. It walks the same tone and style and implied meaning as anything that is David Sedaris that I’ve experienced. Your essay, in contrast to his, comes across as a reactionary yelp and fails to nail down your frustrations with his seeming demonizing and ‘discriminating against’ an entire culture and people. I think most readers of The Guardian and SFGate are well enough informed to understand the challenges of and rapid pace of growth and its potential impact on the peasant, middle, and upper classes of China. Yet, somehow, you assume they are not. You assume maybe that many of us are racist, ignorant, or idiots, that will probably take everything that Sedaris says as “the way we should think”. Or so your essay leads me to believe. But it seems that you are missing the poignancy in the humor of the alienation experienced as a traveler to a foreign country and also of simply being averred to things that are different. Mr. Sedaris didn’t suggest that we cut all ties and bomb the country because of their “uncleanliness” or their backwardness, rather he adeptly showed how ignorant most of us are. But I feel you missed that. Perhaps you missed it by choice. China is a subject close to your heart. Close to your very being. I can see that. I understand that. My wife and I traveled to China last year and spent over a month there, in various locals, before we left only to return a few weeks later, by way of Japan ironically enough. And I’ll tell you Sir, that returning to China, or arriving to China for the first time after being in Japan is nothing less than amped up shock and awe. The contrasts are SO extreme that the dirty and the unusual things that arise from the differences in habits of cultural practice are exacerbated. We traveled to China because my wife is both 1st and 3rd generation Chinese, born in the states to a Chinese first generation father and a Chinese born mother. We both, myself, the gringo from Texas a latino-germanic-anglo-saxon mutt and my wife wanted to know a little about the culture of her descent and our future children’s descent. And on our first pass we traveled up from Hong Kong, via Guangdong and headed west and the cultural shock was lessened and I think we were able to adapt a much more realistic, thoughtful if not romantic view of the country as we travelled via train, bus and plane to various locales. But upon landing in Beijing from Japan, we almost wished we hadn’t returned. While we managed to make the most of our experiences there, as you’ve illustrated adeptly, the stark differences between neighborhoods, classes and change that has come (or trundling through so to speak) to Beijing in such a short time, smack you in the face like a warm steaming diaper. I laughed full-bellied at Sedaris’s characterization of his experience as it matched in many ways to many similar experiences in our own travels. I think we ate Hot-Pot at the same restaurant in Chengdu. That said, what he says is intended to be take with a grain of salt and yet brevity. I urge you to reconsider the piece and re-read it with a bit of distance. If anything, I think the Sedaris piece forces us to think about these issues, very much like being there watching the little boy in his split pants taking a shit on the sidewalk. It puts it right there in your face and you have to fucking deal with it. Whether today or tomorrow, you will reflect on what drives people to do what they do. The writing itself encourages curiosity and thoughtful consideration amongst a far wider audience than your piece from on of the ‘left’ coasts(or two so to speak in your case). Food for thought. Yours, @angrywayne... Thanks, Mr. Yang, for bringing this sad article to the internet's attention. I read Sedaris when I was in high school and thought he was frickin' hilarious. I wonder what I'll think if I ever re-read his books now...not that I have a great desire to anymore. Honestly, I'd rather deal with real shit than a celebrity metaphorically shitting all over an entire culture. "I think most readers of The Guardian and SFGate are well enough informed to understand the challenges of and rapid pace of growth and its potential impact on the peasant, middle, and upper classes of China. Yet, somehow, you assume they are not." That's because there is *no* evidence IN THE ARTICLE of any of this mysterious understanding you refer to. You know what they say about assumptions: To ASSUME makes an ASS out of U and ME. Mr. Yang is supporting his conclusions with evidence found in the article. Notice he begins with a quotation. Basing analytic conclusions on evidence is one of the basic building blocks of good writing. I don't see any counter examples of the evidence you use to support the conclusion that Sedaris and his readers are "well informed [about] the challenges of...growth and its potential impact...on China." @curt @aka47 (btw, what's up with the violent webname? that's a rhetorical question, please don't answer) @most commentators I totally wish I got to keep all the fake money I won off your comments with my bingo card. PS. I'm probably not going to reply to any more comments if anybody bothers to respond because I'm already shaking and I'd probably just repeat what I've said, but do whatever you want anyway. (Not that you wouldn't already.) *bows to the master* "So an hour or so ago, I posted a frustrated note about how I didn’t understand people who made adobo and complained about it being sour or vinegar-y, since you put close to a full cup of vinegar in the marinade/sauce. And a few people rightfully pointed out that new cooks probably wouldn’t look a recipe and have the proportions tip them off, which — totally fair. It was a note that was in truth only peripherally about people’s ability to cook. Because when I’m cooking, food politics never leave me alone. As a light-skinned PoC who experiences most of zir “ethnic” experiences around food, food is the place where I experience the most microaggressions. Because food is racialized too. And not just in obvious ways, like my liberal arts college serving “soul food” night repeatedly through Febuary — which is coincidentally Black history month — but in more insidious and pervasive ways. I get defensive of people complaining about specifically ethnic food because it’s almost never a value neutral judgement. I wish I could just say that some people like some food and others like different food. But it’s not that simple. Food is a site of normalization, of colonization, of resistance and community. Food has been a place where colonizers enforced their will on the people they colonize, or where colonized people have resisted the idea that they (and their food!) were ‘bad’ or ‘disgusting.’ If we lived in a world where everyone was equal, I probably wouldn’t care if someone called something that I ate “disgusting.” It’s a personal perference, right? But that’s not the world I see, and this is what I see. I see that white and Western people have the right to pass judgement on any cuisine they try, but when I say that I don’t like American food I get called a snob. It’s that when white and Western people criticize food of other ethnicities, they use value laden words like “gross” “disgusting” or “nasty.” It’s that white and Western people seem to think that it is okay to spit out food like it is so physically disgusting that they cannot finish the food in their mouth. It’s that French cuisine is renowned worldwide as the ultimate haute cuisine, and Japanese, Korean, Vietnamese, Filipino, Chinese and many other cuisines from Asia are simplified down to “Asian” food where no more explanation is necessary. It’s that people always assume that their food eating experiences are universal — “I don’t understand how anyone can eat that” “How do they eat that” “Can you believe that’s popular over there?” It’s that white and Western people complain about the ingredients in ethnic cooking, as though only the parts of an animal that they deem valuable are worth consumption, and people who have to/like to eat other parts are automatically deemed “lesser.” It’s that aspersions are cast on the content of ethnic cooking — “Do they eat cats there” “How does that dog taste” “No I don’t trust where it comes from.” It’s that a white or Western person complaining about ethnic food is not the same as an ethnic person complaining about white or Western food, because white and Western people are given permission to dislike “inferior” ethnic food while ethnic people who dislike “normal” Western food are deemed picky, hypocritical, snobbish, or unnatural. It’s that ethnic food is automatically deemed “strange” or “adventurous” and Western food is automatically “normal.” It’s that colonization has touched ever part of our lives including our food, and it has left a lasting impact on the way that the world views the “goodness” of food. So while it’s fine that someone doesn’t like spicy food, or Asian food, or whatever, it is a form of privilege, in the United States. Because the food that person likes is always going to be coded as normal, and there will always be a plethora of choices for you to choose from. Because that person can refuse food that they don’t enjoy without being told that they are ungrateful. Because that person is considered “normal” and their food is considered “normal” too. Just like Peaches talked yesterday about how religion and race intersect, this is how food and race and colonization intersect. It’s not as simple as you think, and that’s why I’m defensive. Because a lady can not pay attention to the predominant flavors of the Philippines, make adobo, write a review calling it “disgusting” and talk about how her step-son had to spit out his food, and it will be the #3 review on a major recipe website. That’s why we’re so defensive about our food." from... Nasty and incredibly sexist" Eh? Are you saying my wife doesn't actually do that all that time? When did you meet her and have arguments with her? Jeff, very insightful article. I came to the site via a link from Racialicious.com. She instead often uses the emotionally charged storm from the room tactic. Neither Chinese women nor men commonly use that tactic because the loss of emotional composure is a clear loss of face. But, I'm willing to be educated so I can be a reconstructed male. Can you let me know the nature of the sexism in my comment? All that derailment said, it was still a nasty comment I made to Jeff. But there's a big difference between honestly listing the things you didn't like, even exaggerrating them for humorous effect, and writing 2k-odd words strenuously laying into *every aspect* of a culture starting even *before you arrive*. There's also a context and a history - white racism has traditionally loved to paint 'foreigners' as dirty, disgusting and ignorant of basic social and hygiene rules. Sedaris seemed to revel in observing without attempting to understand or even ask, He seemed determined to focus only on the phlegm and the shit, and not on the fascinating tumble of ancient and modern buildings and customs and life. He went there with shit-tinted glasses, if you like, determined to confirm his prejudices. I was not impressed and will not be buying or recommending any more of Sedaris' books. It does NOT MATTER if a country has "just emerged from poverty" or not: it is NOT OKAY to diss cultural differences or practices, because that reflects on the entire culture! This includes the city itself, which is a personification of the nation. If many city residents are displaced as Jeff mentioned, and if it is this subgroup that has more rural habits, then they are a reflection on the entire city, and still deserve to be spoken about with respect. We cannot insult the behavior of some Chinese people because we're trying to convince white people that "Chinese people are really quite civilised! we're almost there!" No, I'm putting my foot down. Non-Chinese people have no right to make moralised, sweeping judgements about the nature of Chinese people regardless of how outside of Western norms our various behaviors and foods are. Just shut up. I'm sick of entitled, privileged white people literally grimacing when I talk about food that I love and that I see as integral to my cultural identity. And I don't care if you say "you can hate burgers and I'm not insulted!" because you don't constantly have to deal with being told that your culture is "less civilised." by the way, "civilised" is code for "white imperialist." Cleverness does not mean that something has genuine value. There have been many clever monsters in history and those of less-than-monstrous accomplishments. Cleverness does not redeem cruelty, unless we make the choice to numb ourselves to it. Thanks for writing your blog post. Kind regards, Matthew

Meet Calendar Calendar > 2009 03/18 - 03/21 Walt Disney World Invitational R Disney Sports Kissimmee, FL 03/21 Massapequa Dev. Meet R Massapequa Massapequa, NY 03/21 PSAL Season Opener R Icahn Stadium New York, NY 03/21 Ross Goldin Dev. Meet Bay Shore Bay Shore, NY 03/22 Bishop Ford Relays Bishop Ford New York, NY 03/22 Iona/Ursuline Dev. Meet Iona Preparatory School New Rochelle, NY 03/26 Tusker Twilight Invitational R Somers Lincolndale, NY 03/28 Bob Baratta Classic Great Neck South Great Neck, NY 03/28 Hornet Relays R Midwood New York City, NY 03/28 Lindy Relays R Lindenhurst Lindenhurst, NY 03/28 Mr. Mark Meet R Clarkstown North New City, NY 03/28 Puma Invitational R Henry A. Wise High School Upper Marlboro, MD 03/28 Valley Stream Challenge R Valley Stream North Valley Stream, NY 03/30 Byram Hills Irvington Dual R , NY 03/31 Fordham Prep Invitational R Fordham Prep Bronx, NY April 2009 04/01 - 04/02 Section 8 Relays R Uniondale, NY 04/02 Bay Shore vs Lindenhurst , NY 04/02 Mt. Vernon Developmental Mount Vernon Mt. Vernon, NY 04/03 - 04/04 CNU HS Captains Classic R Christopher Newport University Newport News, VA 04/03 NYAAIS #1 Icahn Stadium New York, NY 04/04 CHSAA Boys Frosh/Soph BKLY/Queens Championships Icahn Stadium New York, NY 04/04 Farrell Invitational R Monsignor Farrell Staten Island, NY 04/04 King Relays R Boys and Girls New York, NY 04/04 Middle Country Relays Centereach, NY 04/04 Mount Relays R Mount St. Michael Bronx, NY 04/04 New Rochelle Invitational R New Rochelle New Rochelle, NY 04/04 NY/PA Invitational R Windsor Central Windsor, NY 04/04 Panther Relays R Wallkill Wallkill, NY 04/04 Paul Limmer Invitational , NY 04/04 Pirate Relays R Pearl River Pearl River, NY 04/04 Suffolk Girls Coaches Meet R Bay Shore Bay Shore, NY 04/04 Wagner College Invitational R Wagner College Staten Island, NY 04/06 NYAAIS #2 Icahn Stadium New York, NY 04/07 Port Jeff Steeple Fest R Port Jefferson Port Jefferson, NY 04/08 Fordham Prep Developmental R Fordham Prep New York, NY 04/09 Twin Tiers Invitational R Oswayo Valley Bolivar, NY 04/10 - 04/11 Arcadia Invitational R Arcadia High School (SS) Arcadia, CA 04/10 NY Relays (College) Icahn Stadium New York, NY 04/10 - 04/11 Taco Bell Classic R Spring Valley Columbia, SC 04/10 Warwick Valley Pole Vault Fest R Warwick Valley Warwick, NY 04/11 Balston Spa Lions Invitational R Ballston Spa Baslton Spa, NY 04/11 CBA/LaSalle Relays R Christian Brothers Academy (CBA Albany) Albany, NY 04/11 CNS Co-Ed Relays R Cicero-North Syracuse Cicero, NY 04/11 Green Dragon Relays R Cornwall Cornwall, NY 04/11 Knight Time Invitational R Uniondale Uniondale, NY 04/11 Lansing Kick-Start Classic Lansing Lansing, NY 04/11 Nanuet Relays R Nanuet Nanuet, NY 04/11 NYC Mayor's Cup R Icahn Stadium New York, NY 04/11 Suffolk Officials Boys Meet R Mt. Sinai Mount Sinai, NY 04/13 Derrick Adkins Classic R Malverne Uniondale, NY 04/13 Iona/Ursuline Invitational R Iona Preparatory School New Rochelle, NY 04/14 Colonial Council Relays (Sec. 2) R Cohoes Cohoes, NY 04/14 Curtis Vacation Run R Curtis Staten Island, NY 04/14 Pearl River Steeple/Pole Vault R Pearl River Pearl River, NY 04/15 CHSAA Relay Carnival R Icahn Stadium New York, NY 04/15 Fulton Invitational R Harrison Harrison, NY 04/15 Night Hawk R Cold Spring Harbor, NY 04/15 Tully Girls Spring Break Thing R Tully Tully, NY 04/16 ACIS Relays R Brooklyn, NY 04/16 BGA Spring Break Invitational R Bainbridge-Guilford/Afton (BGA) , NY 04/16 Fonda Fultonville Steeple/Pent R Fonda-Fultonville Fultonville, NY 04/16 Mt. Vernon Developmental Mount Vernon Mt. Vernon, NY 04/16 PSAL Weight Day R Icahn Stadium New York City, NY 04/16 Spring Sensation (Sec. 5) R Waterloo Waterloo, NY 04/17 Larry Ellis Invitational Princeton, NJ 04/17 LHU Bald Eagle Invitational R Lock Haven University Lock Haven, PA 04/17 - 04/18 New York Relays R Icahn Stadium New York, NY 04/17 - 04/18 Red Raider Relays R North Rockland Theils, NY 04/18 3rd Annual Mount Pleasant Invitational Pleasantville, NY 04/18 Albright Invitational R Albany Academy Albany, NY 04/18 Hilton Spring Breakout R Hilton Hilton, NY 04/18 Joe Brandi Relays R Connetquot Bohemia, NY 04/18 Jordan-Elbridge Invitational R Jordan-Elbridge Elbridge, NY 04/18 Kane Invitational R Kane Area Kane, PA 04/18 Ken Smith Bi-County Meet R Broadalbin, NY 04/18 Lady Eagle Invitational R Bethlehem Central Bethlehem, NY 04/18 Mt. Pleasant Invitational R Pleasantville Pleasantville, NY 04/18 Newburgh Goldbacks Invitational R Newburgh Free Academy Newburgh, NY 04/18 Red/White/Blue/Gold Invite R Maine-Endwell Endwell, NY 04/18 Suffolk Track Officials R Mount Sinai, NY 04/18 Tri-Valley Invitational Tri-Valley Grahamsville, NY 04/18 Trojan Invit Alexander, NY 04/18 Trojan Invitational R Alexander Alexander, NY 04/18 Warrior Track Classic R Niskayuna Niskayuna, NY 04/18 WNY Officials Relays Orchard Park, NY 04/20 Dual Meet - Brewster/John Jay Brewster, NY 04/20 Yorktown vs. Horace Greeley Yorktown Heights, NY 04/21 Newburgh vs. Pine Bush R Newburgh Free Academy Newburgh, NY 04/21 Pearl River vs. Albertus Magnus Pearl River, NY 04/22 CHSAA Novice & Weight Championships R Icahn Stadium New York, NY 04/22 Class D Sectionals New York Mills, NY 04/23 Beacon Bulldog Jumpfest R Beacon Beacon, NY 04/23 - 04/25 Penn Relays Carnival R University of Pennsylvania Philadelphia, PA 04/24 Victor Invitational R Victor Victor, NY 04/25 Batavia Pent, Stple, RW R Batavia Batavia, NY 04/25 Bob Pratt Smithtown Invy R Smithtown, NY 04/25 Bob Scarry - Moravia Relays R Moravia Moravia, NY 04/25 Clarkstown South Gold Rush R Clarkstown South West Nyack, NY 04/25 Cohoes Relays R Cohoes Cohoes, NY 04/25 Croton Girls Relays R Croton-Harmon Croton, NY 04/25 Hudson Falls Invitational R Hudson Falls Hudson Falls, NY 04/25 John Arcaro Boys Relays R Baldwinsville Baldwinsville, NY 04/25 Kenmore West Invitational R Kenmore West Kenmore, NY 04/25 Kingston Tiger Relays R Kingston Kingston, NY 04/25 Little Falls Invitational R Little Falls Little Falls, NY 04/25 Lock Haven High School Classic R Lock Haven University Lock Haven, PA 04/25 Madison County Champs R Canastota Canastota, NY 04/25 Mamaroneck Boys Relays Mamaroneck Mamaroneck, NY 04/25 Monticello Games R Monticello Monticello, NY 04/25 Nassau Coaches Invitational R Westbury, NY 04/25 Olean Boosters Invitational R Olean, NY 04/25 Owego Invitational R Owego, NY 04/25 Smithtown - Bob Pratt Invitational R Smithtown West Smithtown, NY 04/25 Warrior Hawk Invitational R Central Square, NY 04/25 Waverly Invitational R Waverly Waverly, NY 04/25 Webster Invitational R Webster Thomas Webster, NY 04/25 Westhampton Beach Invitational R Westhampton Beach westhampton Beach, NY 04/26 CHSAA Girls F/S Championships Icahn Stadium New York, NY 04/27 Fordham Prep Classic R Bronx, NY 04/27 NYAAIS #3 Icahn Stadium New York, NY 04/27 - 04/28 Sec. 1 League II-C Champs R Somers Lincolndale, NY 04/27 TVL Rookie Meet R Vernon-Verona-Sherrill Verona, NY 04/28 Schenectady Invitational R Schenectady Schenectady, NY 04/28 Sec. 1 League 1A Champs R New Rochelle, NY 04/29 Newburgh vs. Middletown R Newburgh Free Academy Newburgh, NY 04/29 Sec. 1 League II-North R Beacon, NY 04/29 Sec. 1 League II-South R Tappan Zee Orangeburg, NY 04/30 ACIS Invitational R Brooklyn, NY 04/30 - 12/31 League IB Champs R New City, NY 04/30 Mt. Vernon Developmental Mount Vernon Mt. Vernon, NY May 2009 05/01 56th Annual New Hartford Invitational R New Hartford New Hartford, NY 05/01 - 05/03 Big East Outdoor Championships R Villanova University Villanova, PA 05/01 CBA Brother Basilian Invite R Syracuse University Syracuse, NY 05/01 Dunkirk Invitational R Dunkirk Dunkirk, NY 05/01 Gerry O'Donnell Invitational R Windsor Central Windsor, NY 05/01 John Childs Invitational R Sayre Area Sayre, PA 05/01 NYAAIS #4 Icahn Stadium New York, NY 05/01 - 05/02 Patriot League Championships R United States Military Academy West Point, NY 05/01 Runnin' Cadet Classic R Hilton Hilton, NY 05/01 - 05/02 Somers Lions Club Invitational R Somers Lincolndale, NY 05/01 - 05/02 St. Anthony's Invitational R Saint Anthony's Huntington, NY 05/01 Wayne Central Invitational R Wayne Wayne, NY 05/02 - 05/03 America East Championships R Binghamton University Binghamton, NY 05/02 Batavia Invitational R Batavia Batavia, NY 05/02 Brian Ahearn Classic R Warwick, NY 05/02 Cayuga County Invitational R Auburn Auburn, NY 05/02 CNY Coaches Meet R Chittenango Chittenango, NY 05/02 Colonie Relays R Colonie Colonie, NY 05/02 Crusader Relays R Monroe-Woodbury Central Valley, NY 05/02 Cumberland Invitational Cumberland High School Cumberland, RI 05/02 Depew Wildcat Relays Booneville, NY 05/02 Don Howard Invitational R Cooperstown Cooperstown, NY 05/02 Fairport Red Raider Invitational R Fairport Fairport, NY 05/02 Fonda-Fultonville Relays R Fultonville, NY 05/02 Genesee Region Championship Booneville, NY 05/02 George Muse Relays R Glens Falls, NY 05/02 Long Branch Relays R Long Branch High School Long Branch, NJ 05/02 Marty Lewis Memorial Viking Classic R South Shore Brooklyn, NY 05/02 Rome Girls Invitational R Rome Free Academy (RFA) Rome, NY 05/02 Tri-Valley Relays R Tri-Valley Grahamsville, NY 05/02 Wayland-Cohocton Invitational R Wayland-Cohocton Wallkill, NY 05/03 Howard Richter Invitational R Dewitt Clinton Bronx, NY 05/04 Cherry Valley-Spring Relays Cherry Valley-Springfield (CVS) Cherry Valley, NY 05/04 Cornwall Steeplefest R Cornwall Cornwall, NY 05/04 Sec. 1 League 3B R Byram Hills Armonk, NY 05/04 Section 1 League 3A R Putnam Valley Putnam Valley, NY 05/04 Staten Island Champs R Monsignor Farrell Staten Island, NY 05/05 MAC Relays R Walton, NY 05/05 - 05/06 NSCHSAA Frosh/Soph Champs R Huntington, NY 05/05 Section 1 League III-C Championships Pearl River, NY 05/05 Westchester Girls Catholic Champs R Ursuline School New Rochelle, NY 05/06 - 12/31 League 1B Frosh-Soph Champs R Clarkstown North New City, NY 05/06 PSAA Championship R Brooklyn, NY 05/07 - 05/09 42nd Glenn D. Loucks Games R White Plains White Plains, NY 05/07 Goldbacks Distance Classic R Newburgh Free Academy Newburgh, NY 05/07 Greenwich Frosh/Soph R Greenwich Greenwich, NY 05/07 Mt. Vernon Developmental Mount Vernon Mt. Vernon, NY 05/07 - 05/08 Sec. 8 Frosh/Soph R Uniondale, NY 05/08 Ithaca Relays R Ithaca High School Ithaca, NY 05/08 Marsh - Galotta Invitational R Middleburgh, NY 05/08 Massapequa Invitational R Massapequa Massapequa, NY 05/08 Oneida Invitational R Oneida Oneida, NY 05/08 Oneonta Invitational Oneonta, NY 05/08 Warwick Friends Invitational R Warwick Valley Warwick, NY 05/09 - 05/10 Bruce Selman Invitational R John F. Kennedy Bronx, NY 05/09 Cherry Valley-Spring Invite Cherry Valley-Springfield (CVS) Cherry Valley, NY 05/09 CNS Coed Modified Invitational Cicero-North Syracuse Cicero, NY 05/09 Hartford Public Invitational R New Britain, CT 05/09 His & Hers Invitational R Victor Victor, NY 05/09 JFK Early Bird Invitational R JFK Buffalo Cheektowaga, NY 05/09 Johnstown Invitational R Johnstown Johnstown, NY 05/09 Le Roy Invitational R LeRoy, NY 05/09 Marion Invitational R Marion Marion, NY 05/09 NAC Invitational R Madrid-Waddington Madrid, NY 05/09 North Shore Invitational R North Shore Glen Head, NY 05/09 NYC Qualifying Challenge R New York, NY 05/09 Pine Bush Invitational R Pine Bush Pine Bush, NY 05/09 Queensbury Invitational R Queensbury Queensbury, NY 05/09 Starpoint Team Challenge Starpoint, NY 05/09 Suffolk County Relays R Bayport-Blue Point Bayport, NY 05/09 Weedsport Invitational R Weedsport Weedsport, NY 05/10 Long Island USATF Longwood Middle Island, NY 05/11 League III-C Frosh/Soph Championships Nanuet, NY 05/11 Sec. 1 League 4-C R Bronxville Bronxville, NY 05/11 - 05/12 Sec. 1 League I-D R Arlington Lagrangeville, NY 05/12 Schuylerville, Greenwich, Ganville, Salem R Schuylerville Schuylerville, NY 05/12 Sec. 2 Colonial Council Champs R Ravena Ravena, NY 05/12 Sec. 2 Patroon Conference Taconic Hills Taconic HIlls, NY 05/12 Sec. 2 WAC Champs R Fonda-Fultonville Fultonville, NY 05/12 TZ, Nyack, Spring Valley, P. Chester, Yonkers R Orangeburg, NY 05/13 Harbaugh Invitational R Delaware Academy , 05/13 NYCHSAA Boys Frosh/Soph R Mount St. Michael Bronx, NY 05/14 ACIS Championship Brooklyn, NY 05/14 - 05/15 Rockland County Champs R Suffern Suffern, NY 05/14 Tri-Valley Modified Invitational Grahamsville, NY 05/15 Falcon Invitational R Frontier, NY 05/15 Junkyard Relays R Clinton Clinton, NY 05/15 Morrisville-Eaton Invitational R Morrisville-Eaton Morrisville, NY 05/15 Parkhurst Boys Invitational R Union Endicott Union-Endicott, NY 05/15 PSAL Queens Champs R Bayside , NY 05/15 Schuylerville Classic R Schuylerville Schuylerville, NY 05/15 Town of Babylon Champs R Lindenhurst Lindenhurst, NY 05/15 Tully Girls Invitational R Tully Tully, NY 05/15 Victor Twilight Invitational R Victor Victor, NY 05/15 Wallkill Frosh/Soph Invitational R Wallkill Wallkill, NY 05/15 - 05/16 Westchester County Championships R Byram Hills Armonk, NY 05/16 BQCHSAA Sectional Champs R Icahn Stadium New York, NY 05/16 Bulldog Invitational R George H. Hewlett Hewlett, NY 05/16 Fonda/Fultonville F/S R Fonda-Fultonville Booneville, NY 05/16 Joe Paternitti Invitational R Jamestown Jamestown, NY 05/16 Livonia Invitational R Livonia Livonia, NY 05/16 Middletown Invitational R Middletown Middletown, NY 05/16 Newark Invitational R Newark Newark, NY 05/16 Niagara-Wheatfield Invitational R Starpoint, NY 05/16 Northern County Championships R Brewster, NY 05/16 NSCHSAA League Championships R Huntington, NY 05/16 NYC Ivy League Championships R Icahn Stadium New York, NY 05/16 NYCHSAA Championship R Bronx, NY 05/16 Rotary Girls Invitational R Maine-Endwell Endwell, NY 05/16 Royal Comet Invitational R Rush Henrietta Sperry Henrietta, NY 05/16 Sec. 10 Van Dusen Invitational R Ogdensburg Free Academy Ogdensburg, NY 05/16 Spartan Team Challenge R Starpoint, NY 05/16 STAC West Challenge R Horseheads Horseheads, NY 05/16 Wellsville Spring Day R Bolivar-Richburg Wellsville, NY 05/16 William F. Eddy Memorial R Schenectady Schenectady, NY 05/18 CUPPS Championships Onondaga, NY 05/18 Longwood Frosh/Soph R Longwood Middle Island, NY 05/18 Ravena Invitational R Ravena Ravena, NY 05/19 PSAL Staten Island Champs R Petrides Staten Island, NY 05/19 Sec. 2 Big Ten Champs R Amsterdam Amsterdam, NY 05/20 CNYCL Girls Leagues R Cicero-North Syracuse Cicero, NY 05/20 Nassau Class County Champs R Uniondale, NY 05/20 NYSAIS Championships R Icahn Stadium New York, NY 05/20 Sec. 2 Surburban Council R Colonie Colonie, NY 05/20 Sec. 2 Wasaren League Champs R Schuylerville Schuylerville, NY 05/20 Sec. 3 Frontier League Champs R Watertown Watertown, NY 05/20 Sec. 4 CSC Div. II League Champs R Morrisville-Eaton Morrisville, NY 05/20 Section 1 Class C Champs R Bronxville Bronxville, NY 05/21 1st Annual Knight at the Races R Lansingburgh, NY 05/21 CNYCL Boys League Champs R Cicero-North Syracuse Cicero, NY 05/21 Monroe County JV Champs R Victor Victor, NY 05/21 Sec. 2 Foothills Champs R Queensbury Queensbury, NY 05/21 Sec. 4 MAC Champs R Bainbridge-Guilford/Afton (BGA) , NY 05/21 Sec. 4 STAC Champs R Ithaca High School Ithaca, NY 05/21 Sec. 9 MHAL Champs R Kingston, NY 05/21 Section 1 Class B Champs R Tappan Zee Orangeburg, NY 05/21 - 05/22 TVL Champs R Vernon-Verona-Sherrill Verona, NY 05/21 TVL League Championship Camden Camden, NY 05/21 Wayne County Champs R East Rochester East Rochester, NY 05/22 Livingston County Champs R Dansville Dansville, NY 05/22 OHSL Division Champs R Marcellus Marcellus, NY 05/22 Rochester City Catholic R Benjamin Franklin Rochester, NY 05/22 Sec. 4 CSC Div. I League Champs R Herkimer Herkimer, NY 05/22 Sec. 4 IAC Champs R Dryden Dryden, NY 05/23 Boston Twilight Meet Cambridge, MA 05/23 CHSAA Intersectional Championships R Icahn Stadium New York, NY 05/23 CNS Invitational R Cicero-North Syracuse Cicero, NY 05/23 Danbury Dream Invitational R Danbury High School Danbury, CT 05/23 Monroe County Champs R Webster Thomas Webster, NY 05/23 Monroe County Champs Webster Thomas Webster, NY 05/23 OCIAA Championships R Warwick, NY 05/23 PSAL Brooklyn Champs R South Shore Brooklyn, NY 05/23 PSAL Manhattan Champs R Icahn Stadium New York, NY 05/23 Sec. 1 Class A Champs R Suffern, NY 05/23 Sec. 5 Finger Lakes Champs R Newark Newark, NY 05/23 Steuben County Champs R Dansville Dansville, NY 05/23 WNY Boys Track Classic R Clarence Clarence, NY 05/23 WNY Girls Track Classic R Lancaster, NY 05/24 PSAL Bronx Champs R Icahn Stadium New York, NY 05/26 - 05/29 Sec. 11 Division Champs R Connetquot Bohemia, NY 05/26 Sec. 4 Class Steeple and Pent R Binghamton HS Binghamton, NY 05/26 Somers Frosh/Soph Champs R Somers Lincolndale, NY 05/26 Tiger Team Pentathlon White Plains White Plains, NY 05/27 Niagara Frontier League Meet Starpoint, NY 05/27 Sec 9 A & D Champs R Middletown Middletown, NY 05/27 Sec. 2 Girls Class A Champs R Queensbury Queensbury, NY 05/27 Sec. 3 Boys Class AA Champs R Cicero-North Syracuse Cicero, NY 05/27 Sec. 3 C1, C2 Steeplechase R Chittenango Chittenango, NY 05/28 Sec. 2 Class BB Champs R Broadalbin-Perth Broadalbin, NY 05/28 Sec. 4 Class A Champs R Vestal Vestal, NY 05/28 Sec. 4 Class B Champs R Owego Free Academy Owego, NY 05/28 Sec. 4 Class C Champs R Whitney Point Whitney Point, NY 05/28 Sec. 4 Class D Sectionals R New York Mills, NY 05/28 Sec. 9 Class B & C Champs R Kingston, NY 05/28 - 05/29 Section 1 State Qualifier R Arlington White Plains, NY 05/28 Section 10 Championships R Potsdam HS Potsdam, NY 05/28 Section 3 Girls Class Meets R Cicero-North Syracuse Cicero, NY 05/28 Section 9 Class C championship Kingston, NY 05/29 - 05/30 Erie County Championships Cheektowaga, NY 05/29 - 05/30 Sec. 3 Boys Class Meets R Marcellus Marcellus, NY 05/30 Reebok Grand Prix R Icahn Stadium New York City, NY 05/30 Sec. 2 Class B Champs R Johnstown Johnstown, NY 05/30 Sec. 6 ECIC Champs R JFK Buffalo Buffalo, NY 05/30 Section 5 Class Champs R Hilton Hilton, NY 05/30 Section 7 Championships R Plattsburgh HS Plattsburgh, NY 05/31 PSAL Frosh/Soph Champs R Icahn Stadium New York, NY June 2009 06/01 Fast Times Jamboree R Warwick, NY 06/01 - 06/03 Section 5 Frosh/Soph R Aquinas Institute Rochester, NY 06/01 - 06/03 Section 8 State Qualifier R Westbury Westbury, NY 06/03 PSAL City Championship Pentathalon Brooklyn, NY 06/04 - 06/05 Section 2 State Qualifier R Johnstown Johnstown, NY 06/04 - 06/06 Section 3 State Qualifier R Cicero-North Syracuse Cicero, NY 06/04 Section 4 State Qualifier R Binghamton, NY 06/04 - 06/05 Section 9 state qualifier R , NY 06/05 - 06/06 Section 11 State Qualifier R Port Jefferson Port Jefferson, NY 06/05 Section 5 State Qualifier R Caledonia-Mumford , NY 06/05 - 06/06 Section 6 State Qualifier R Pioneer, NY 06/05 Section 7 State Qualifier R Ausable Valley Ausable Valley, NY 06/06 Eastern States Championships R Iona Preparatory School New Rochelle, NY 06/06 Section 10 State Qualifier R Canton, NY 06/07 Nike Prefontaine Classic R University of Oregon Eugene, OR 06/07 PSAL City Championship R New York, NY 06/08 Massapequa Last Chance R Massapequa Massapequa, NY 06/10 - 06/13 NCAA Outdoor Championships R Fayetteville, AR 06/12 - 06/13 NYSPHSAA - NY State Champs R Cicero-North Syracuse Cicero, NY 06/13 Caribbean Scholastic Invitational R Carolina, PR 06/13 Portland Track Festival R Lewis & Clark Portland, OR 06/18 - 06/20 Nike Outdoor Nationals R Greensboro, NC 06/24 - 06/28 USATF Junior Outdoor T&F Champs R University of Oregon Eugene, OR 06/25 - 06/27 USATF Jr. Olympic NE Regional Fitchburg, MA 06/25 - 06/28 USATF Outdoor Track & Field Championships R University of Oregon Eugene, OR 06/30 - 07/01 USATF World Youth Track & Field Trials R Eastern Michigan University Ypsilanti, MI 06/30 - 07/05 USATF Youth Outdoor National Championships R Eastern Michigan University Ypsilanti, MI July 2009 07/03 Down Under Championship Track Meet R , AUS 07/04 AAU Club Championships R Kissimmee, FL 07/07 Westchester Summer Twilight Series Hendrick Hudson Montrose, NY 07/08 - 07/12 IAAF World Youth Championships R , ITA 07/09 - 07/12 USATF Region II Junior Olympics R Jamestown Jamestown, NY 07/10 - 07/11 USATF Club Championships R Icahn Stadium New York, NY 07/12 Fireworks Vault R Warsaw Warsaw, NY 07/14 Westchester Summer Twilight Series Hendrick Hudson Montrose, NY 07/15 Down Under All-American Meet R Runaway Bay, QLD 07/15 LITF Summer Series #2 Walt Whitman Huntington Station, NY 07/16 All Comer Developmental Meet Eden Eden, NY 07/17 - 07/19 4th United Age Group Track Coaches Asso. Youth Invitational R Chester, PA 07/18 Down Under US/Australia Meet R Miami, AUS 07/21 Westchester Summer Twilight Series Hendrick Hudson Montrose, NY 07/22 Summer Speed Series Brooklyn, NY 07/24 - 07/26 Empire State Track Championship R Queensbury Queensbury, NY 07/24 - 07/26 Russell Blunt East Coast Invitational R Durham, NC 07/28 Westchester Summer Twilight Series R Somers Lincolndale, NY 07/30 All Comer Developmental Meet Eden Eden, NY 07/30 LITF Summer Series #3 Uniondale, NY 07/31 Newburgh Summer Track Series Newburgh Elite Newburgh, NY 07/31 - 08/02 Pan American Junior Athletics Championships R , TRI August 2009 08/01 - 08/08 AAU Junior Olympic Games R Drake University Des Moines, IA 08/04 4th Indian Summer Invitational West Seneca West West Seneca, NY 08/04 Westchester Summer Twilight Series R Somers Lincolndale, NY 08/05 Summer Speed Series Brooklyn, NY 08/06 LITF Summer Series #4 Uniondale, NY 08/07 Newburgh Summer Track Series R Newburgh Elite Newburgh, NY 08/07 Vaultapalooza R Warsaw Pole Vault Club Warsaw, NY 08/11 Westchester Summer Twilight Series Somers Lincolndale, NY 08/14 Newburgh Summer Track Series Newburgh Elite Newburgh, NY 08/15 - 08/23 IAAF World Championships R Berlin, GER 08/19 Summer Speed Series Brooklyn, NY

6-10-10 Thurs. math: workbook page 111 I will not be here tomorrow (one of my sons is graduating from Drexel University), so there will not be any school notes. Here is the info. for our field trip on Monday: 1. wear PE uniform (can bring a school or PE sweatshirt, if they want) 2. no backpack, lunch, drink, or snack needed 3. optional: an envelope with money for the gift shop marked with the child's name 4. BE HERE AT 7:30am. We will leave promptly at 7:45am. We have timed tickets so we will not wait for anyone. 5. We will return 3:30pm. Thanks-See everyone on Monday. Mrs. Park ********************************************** 6-9-10 Wed. Math: practice page 110 Social studies: slave diary entry (last night) Spanish: write 5 sentences using "ar" verbs (IF NOT ALREADY DONE!)/due Fri. Red test folders went home today as well as Wed. Folders. Yearbooks went home for those who had ordered them. If your child wants one, a check/cash can be sent into the office. Stay dry! Mrs. Park ****************************** 6-8-10 Tuesday English: do cursive copy of letter to 3rd grade/due tomorrow Spelling: workbook page 196 and top of 197 Math: workbook page 145 Social studies: daily slave diary entry Spanish: quiz tomorrow/5 sentences using "ar" verbs Enjoy your afternoon-Mrs. Park ************************************ 6-7-10 Mon. Spelling: workbook pages 194 and 195 Math: practice page 144 Spanish: 5 sentences using "ar" verbs/quiz Wed. ************************************* 6-4-10 Fri. math: workbook page 66 (cross off predictions.just solve AND NO calculator!) science: test Mon. 6-7 on all plant notes Social studies: daily slave diary entry/due Mon: entries from Friday, Sat,. and Sun. Religion: chapter 3 (green book) test Monday 6-7 Spanish: 1. 5 sentences using "ar" verbs/due Wed. 6-9 2. quiz Wed. 6-9 Have a wonderful weekend-Mrs. Park **************************************** 6-3-10 Thurs. vocabulary: test tomorrow unit 12 spelling: test tomorrow unit 31 math: workbook page 65 science: test Monday 6-7 (on all plant notes) Social studies: read pages 175-177/answer teacher question/due tomorrow Tonight, Band members are at school: 6:15pm Rest of the class in classroom: 6:45pm (dress in SUNDAY BEST! no jeans!) See everyone tonight-Mrs. Park *************************************** 6-2-10 Wed. Reading: picture book project due tomorrow vocabulary: unit 12 test Friday 6/4 Spelling: 1. workbook pages 190 and top of 191 2. unit 31 Test Friday 6-4 Math: workbook page 63 Science: test Monday 6-7 on all plant notes Social studies: read pages 174-175/answer teacher question/due tomorrow Spanish: workbook page 57/quiz Wed. 6-9 Red test folders went home today. Some students have had papers in there for some time now. Please check the folders and sign the tests. In Wed. folders, there is the permission slip for the Baltimore Aquarium and food order form. Please sign and return these forms on time. Thanks-Mrs. Park *************************** 6-1-10 Tuesday Reading: picture book project/due Thurs. 6-3 Vocabulary: 1. write the last 4 sentences in cursive 2. unit 12 test Friday 6-4 Spelling: 1. workbook pages 188-189 2. unit 31 test Friday 6-4 Math: workbook page 62 Science: review today's notes/answer teacher questions/due tomorrow Social studies; read pages 172-173/answer teacher questions/due tomorrow Religion: final cursive copy of Bible story project due tomorrow Stay cool-Mrs. Park ******************************* 5-27-10 Thursday English: book report with award due Tues. 6-1 Lit. Circles: finish book/do your job/bring everything/due Tues. 6-1 Vocabulary: 8 sentences in cursive from unit 12/due Tuesday 6-1 (this was handed out last night) Social studies: write a letter of response to James Barrett as his wife/cursive/due Tuesday 6-1 (this is the only homework that is new!) Religion: final cursive copy of Bible story project due Wed. 6-2 (this was handed out yesterday after we class edited the rough draft) Spanish: workbook page 58/answer with complet sentences/due Wed. 6-2 (this was handed out yesterday) Health: 1. parent sign test/return 6-1 2. make corrections to test 3. study for retest on Tuesday 6-1 See everyone tomorrow for Field Day! Pray for no rain-Mrs. Park *********************************************************** 5-26-10 Wed. English: book report with award due 6-1 Lit. Circles: finish book/do your job/everything due Tuesday 6-1 Vocabulary: write 8 sentences in cursive from unit 12/due Wed. 6-2 Math: chapter 22/lessons 1,2,and 4 Test tomorrow Religion: final cursive copy of Bible project due Wed. 6-2 Spanish: workbook page 58/answer with complete sentences/due 6-2 Have a great afternoon-Mrs. Park 5-25-10 Tuesday English: book report with award due 6-1 (This was handed out over 3 weeks ago. Please check on your child's progress and remind that this is due Tuesday 6-1. Thanks. FYI: This is a reading and english test grades.) Lit.Circles: finish the book/do your job/due Tuesday 6-1 Vocabulary: workbook page 105 Math: 1. book page 579/quick check #1-8 only 2. chapter 22/lessons 1,2, and 4 Test Thurs. 5-27 Social studies: chapter 4 test tomorrow Religion: rough draft of Bible story project/due tomorrow Spanish: workbook page 56 and study ar verb endings/due tomorrow NEEDED: 8th grade's service project is supplying items to medical pesonnel in Iraq and Afghanistan. 4th grade has been assigned: packages of face cleaning cloths. Please send them in with your child this week, thanks- Mrs. Park ********************************** 5-24-10 Monday English: book report with award due 6-1 (This was handed out over 3 weeks ago. After talking to many of my students, there is not much progress on this. Please check on your child's progress and remind that this is due Tuesday 6-1. Thanks. FYI: This is a reading and english test grades.) Lit. Circles: read chapters 11-15/stop at 16/do your job/bring book and packet tomorrow Vocabulary: workbook page 104 Spelling: test tomorrow on review unit Math: 1. workbook page 140 (also solve #4, 10, and 14) 2. test Thursday 5-27 chapter 22/lessons 1,2, and 4 Social studies: 1. workbook page 47 2. Chapter 4 test Wed. 5-26 Religion: 1. finish picture of Bible story 2. memorize Morning Offering by tomorrow NEEDED: 8th grade's service project is supplying items to medical pesonnel in Iraq and Afghanistan. 4th grade has been assigned: packages of face cleaning cloths. Please send them in with your child next week-Thanks. Have a great afternoon-Mrs. Park 5-21-10 Friday Lit. Circles: read chapter 11-15/stop at 16/do your job/due Tues. 5-25 Spelling: 1. workbook pages 184-185 2. test Tuesday 5-25 review unit Math: workbook page 142 Science: quiz Monday 5-24 on seeds/flowers (notes and worksheets) Social studies: 1. book page 157/do #1-10 and #13-15/due Mon. 2. chapter 4 test Wed. 5-26 Religion: memorize Morning Offering by 5-25 Health: circulatory test Monday 5-24 Spanish: workbook page 56 and study ar verb engins by Wed. 5-26 We has a wonderful pizza/movie/ice cream afternoon! Thanks to the Swallows :) Enjoy the weekend-see everyone Monday. Mrs. Park ***************************************************** 5-20-10 Thursday It was a fun filled Colonial Day with lots of activities, food, and crafts. Thank you to everyone who helped in anyway. We cannot have this day without all hands working together! A big thank you to Mrs. Coate for overseeing everything :) There is no new homework-look at yesterdays. Tomorrow is a pizza/movie day, so you do not need to pack a lunch for your 4th grade child. Thanks to the gala winner! Enjoy the afternoon-Mrs. Park 5-19-10 Wed. Lit. Circles: read chapters 11-15/stop at 16/do your job/due Tues. 5-25 Spelling: fractions of vowels/consonants of review list/due Fri. 5-21 Math: workbook page 139/due Fri. 5-21 Science: quiz on seeds/flowers (chapter 1/lesson 3) Monday 5-24 Social Studies: chapter 4 test Wed. 5-26 Religion: 1. chapter 14-15 test Fri. 5-21 2. memorize Morning Offering by 5-25 Spanish: 1. corrections to test/parent signature/Friday 2. study -ar verb endings INFORMATION: Red test folders went home today. Also Wed. Folders went home. Please check your child's. I sent several interims (progress reports) home today in the Wed. Folder. Many students are not reviewing social studies and science NIGHTLY. Grades are falling. I reminded the students that school is not over and grades are still being worked on. Thanks for your support with this. I also sent home a paper about Colonial Day, which is TOMORROW! See everyone tomorrow! Mrs. Park ******************************************** 5-18-10 Tues. Lit. Circles: read chapters 11-15/stop at 16/do your job/due Tuesday 5/25 Spelling: define and write a sentence for 7 of the review words/due tomorrow Social studies: 1. double bar graph due tomorrow 2. quiz tomorrow Ch. 4/lesson 4 Religion: 1. chapter 14 and 15 test Friday (brown book) Health: circulatory test Monday 5/24 Spanish: finish last page of numbers/due tomorrow COLONIAL DAY IS THIS THURSDAY 5-20! ANY QUESTIONS, CONTACT MRS. COATE OR MYSELF. AN INFORMATION PAPER WILL GO HOME TOMORROW IN WED. FOLDER. 5-17-10 Mon. Lit. Circles: read chapters 6-10/stop at 11/do your job/bring everything tomorrow Reading: create math word problem as pet store owner/due tomorrow Spelling: ABC order of review list Math: 1. book page 564 (DO ONLY EVENS!) 2. chapter 21 test tomorrow Social studies: 1. create double bar graph/due Wed. 2. chapter 4/lesson 4 quiz Wed. 5-19 Religion: 1. chapter 15 (brown book) test Friday 5-21 Spainsh: finish last page of numbers/due Wed. Health: test Monday 5-24 on circulatory system Hope everyone is ready for Colonial Day this Thursday! Mrs. Park ************************************************************* 5-14-10 Friday Lit. Circles: read chapters 6-10/stop at 11/do your job/bring book and packet Tuesday 5-18 Math: 1. practice page 136 2. chapter 21 test Tuesday 5-18 Science: review plant notes and worksheet/quiz Monday 5-17 Social studies; 1. read pages 152-154/answer teacher questions/due Monday 2. quiz Wed. 5-19 Chapter 4/lesson 4 Have a wonderful weekend-See you Monday! Mrs. Park 5-13-10 Thurs. English: book report with award due 6-1Writing: final copy of "good news, bad news" story due tomorrow. The students did the rough draft and class editing in school yesterday. (It can be typed or done in neat print, whichever the student wants.) Spelling: unit 29 test tomorrow Math:1. workbook page 138 Science: review notes/quiz Monday 5-17 Social studies: read pages 150-152/stop at farms/answer teacher questions/due tomorrow Spanish: test tomorrow vocabulary REMEMBER: dress down for 4th grade only tomorrow! There is NO MASS. Please, follow dresss down guidelines. REMEMBER: to vote for our picture on the CAPS website. :) See you tomorrow-Mrs. Park ********************************* 5-12-10 Wed. Writing: final copy of "good news, bad news" story due Friday 5-1. The students did the rough draft and class editing today in class. (It can be typed or done in neat print, whichever the student wants. ) Lit. Circles: read chapters 6-10/stop at 11/do your job/due Tuesday 5-18 Spelling: 1. worksheet (both sides) 2. unit 29 test Friday 5-14 Math: workbook page 137 Science: review today's notes and answer teacher questions/due tomorrow Social studies: 1. read pages 148-149/stop at travel/answer teacher questions/due tomorrow 2. article review due Friday for certain students Spanish: test Friday 5-14 FYI: 4th grade ONLY will have a dress down day this Friday 5-14. It is part of the gala package won for 4th grade. Remember to adhere to dress down rules per handbook! Thanks- 5-11-10 Tuesday Spelling: 1. workbook pages 178-top of 179 2. unit 29 test Friday Math: 1. workbook page 135 2. chapter 19 test signed AND corrections to missed problems (show your work)/this is due tomorrow Wed. Due to a writing assignment, which the students typed on the computer today, we did not do Literature circles. We will do it tomorrow. So please have your packet, book, and completed job ready for tomorrow. :) ******************************** 5-10-10 Monday Vocabulary: unit 11 test tomorrow Spelling: 1. workbook pages 176-177 2. unit 29 test Fri. 5-14 Math: workbook page 134 Social studies: quiz tomorrow Chapter 4/lesson 3 Sorry for the delay but meetings all afternoon. See you tomorrow-Mrs. Park ******************************************************************** 5-6-10 Thurs. Lit. Circles: read chapters 1-5/stop at 6/do your job/due Tuesday 5-11 Vocabulary: 1. workbook page 101 2. test Tuesday 5-11 unit 11 English: 1. rough draft of narrative writing due tomorrow 2. Award/writing (book report) due 6-1 Tuesday Spelling: test tomorrow on unit 28 Science: quiz tomorrow on notes Social studies: 1. quiz Tuesday 5-11 on chpater 4/lesson 3 2. article review due tomorrow for certain students Religion: 1. chapter 14 (brown book) test Monday 5-5-10 Wed. Vocabulary: write the last 4 sentences from unit 11/due tomorrow 2. unit 28 test Friday 5-7 Math: chapter 20 test tomorrow Science: quiz on notes Friday 5-7 Social studies: 1. read pages 147-148/answer teacher questions/due tomorrow 2. article review due Fri. 5-7 (for certain students) Religion: 1. chapter 14 (brown book) test Monday 5-10 Everyone had a great time making salsa as well as eating it this afternoon! My room still smells like salsa! Remember band members will take the Science quiz tomorrow after school. Thanks! Enjoy this beautiful weather-Mrs. Park ***************************************** 5-4-10 Tuesday Vocabulary: write 4 more sentences from unit 11/due tomorrow Math: 1. book page 538 (do #4-15 and 20 only) 2. chapter 20 test Thurs. (all lessons except lesson 4) Science: review notes/quiz Friday 5-7 (remember band students will take this afterschool this Thurs.) Social studies: 1. read pages 145-146/answer teacher questions/due tomorrow 2. article review due Friday 5-7 for certain students Spanish: bring ingredient TOMORROW for Cinco de Mayo *********************************** 5-3-10 Monday Vocabulary: write 4 sentences from unit 11 in cursive Spelling: 1.workbook pages 170-171 Math: 1. practice page 131 2. chapter 20 test Thursday 5-6 Science: 1. review notes and answer teacher questions/due tomorrow 2. quiz Friday 5-7 on notes Social studies: 1. read pages 143-144/answer teacher questions/due tomorrow Spanish: bring in assigned ingredient by Wed. 5-5 for Cinco de Mayo celebration Band parents: The band students will miss a science quiz on Friday. They are to stay after school this Thurs. 5-6 to take it. That is the test make-up day. I will give them the homework for Friday at the end of Thursday. They will need to be sure and get all their books, so the work is done. Thanks! ******************************************* 4-30-10 Friday Vocabulary: workbook page 99 English: do 4 adjectives and 6 verbs (ing) for diamontes poem Math: practice page 129 (do #5-15) AND page 130 (do # 1, 5,7,9,13,17,19,21,25,and 26) Religion: memorize Morning Offering by 5/25 Spanish: bring in ingredient for salsa for Cinco De Mayo (Wed. 5-5) ********************************************* 4-29-10 Thursday Vocabulary: workbook page 98 English: 2 nouns for diamontes poem Spelling: test tomorrow unit 27 Math: workbook pages 129 AND 130 Social studies: 1. quiz tomorrow on Chapter4/lesson 2 Spanish: workbook pages 52-53 due tomorrow 4-28-10 Wed. Spelling: 1. workbook pages 168-169 2. test unit 27 Friday Math: practice pages: 124 (do #4-12 only) AND 125 (do #1-10 only) Social studies: 1. quiz Friday Chapter 4/lesson 2 Religion: 1. test tomorrow Chapter 13 (brown book) Spanish: workbook pages 52-53/due Friday What a fun way to end the day with our ROCK THE RED picture! Mrs. Park ***************************** 4-26-10 Monday Vocabulary: test tomorrow on unit 10 English: rough draft of ABC poem/due tomorrow (most finished this in class today) Spelling: 1. workbook pages 164-165 (they had time in class to complete this) 2. test Fri. unit 27 Math: test tomorrow chapter 19 Social stuides: 1. read page 141/answer teacher questions/due tomorrow 2.quiz Friday 4-30 on chapter 4/lesson2 3. article review for certain students due Fri. (given out today) Religion: 1. test Thurs. 4-29 chapter 13 (brown book) 2. memorize Morning Offering by 5/25 Dress down and wearing of RED (and CAPS shirts, jerseys, etc.) is on Wed. The weather is suppose to be much better. Remember to follow the dress down guidelines. Go CAPS! Mrs. Park 4-23-10 Friday Vocabulary: test Tuesday 4-27 unit 10 Math: 1. book page 512/do #1-3 AND #8-18/due Monday 4-26 (this was given out yesterday) 2. test Tuesday 4-27 chapter 19 Science: test Monday chapter 3/lessons 1, 3, 4 Testing is complete! It was a long week and today was long. We didn't finish until 1:25pm. We ended the day with a soceer game with 5th grade! Mrs. Dalmut will be sending an email about Monday's dress in red. If the weather is bad, it will be pushed back. We need nice enough weather to go outside and have a school picture taken. So check your emails- Have a great weekend-GO CAPS! Mrs. Park ********************************************** 4-22-10 Thursday Vocab: test Tuesday 4-27 unit 10 Math: 1. book page 512/do #1-3 AND #8-18/due Monday 4-26 Science: 1. book pages C92-93/do #1-11 and Explaining science # 1and 4/due tomorrow (was given out yesterday) 2. test Monday 4-26 chapter 3/lessons 1,3, and 4 Social studies: 1. read pages 138-141 (stop at Tradition....)/answer teacher questions/due tomorrow 2. article review for certain students due tomorrow Day 3 of testing is done! It was a long morning with math. Thank you to all for the gardening supplies. We worked for about an hour and made a dent in the weeds. Everyone enjoyed themselves! 4-21-10 Wed. Vocabulary: 1. write 6 more sentences in cursive from unit 10/due tomorrow 2. test Tuesday 4/27 unit 10 Math: test Tuesday 4/27 on chapter 19 Science: 1. book pages C92-93/do #1-11 and under Explaining Science doe #1 and 4 only/due Friday 4-23 2. test Monday 4-26 chapter 3 (oceans/lesson 1, 3, and 4) Social studies:1. read pages 138-139 (stop at building nation's capital)/answer teacher questions/due tomorrow 2. article review for certain students due Fri. 4-23 Spanish: memorize Voy, Vas, Va, Vamous, Van: forms of ir Day 2 of testing done! Tomorrow is math. We will still be working in Mary's Garden tomorrow (no rain predicted). So have your child bring in garden gloves and hand tools. They are very excited about this! 4-20-10 Tuesday Lit. Circles: word project due tomorrow Vocabulary: 6 cursive sentences from unit 10 due tomorrow (assigned Monday) Math: workbook page 125 English: finish final copy of shape poem (most everyone finished this in class) Science: finish poem for power point (most everyone did this today) Social studies: article review by certain students/due Fri. 4-23 Day 1 of testing went well for us. Remember to have your child bring in a book to read. 4-19-10 Monday Yeah-school notes is finally working! 4th grade begins testing tomorrow. Today we did grid work and practice test. Each student is to have several #2 pencils for the test. They also need to bring a book to read during testing. Thanks! Lit. Circles: due tomorrow 4-20/finish book and last 2 jobs/bring packet and book Vocabulary:write in cursive 6 sentences using words from unit 10/due Wed. 4-21 Math: workbook page 124/due tomorrow Science: bring note cards to school for ocean animal project tomororw. We will be going to the computer lab in the afternoon to work on it, since we miss computer this week due to testing. Social studies: article review due Fri. 4-23 (Marina, Matthew, Dominic, Jasmine) English: finish final copy of shape poem/due tomorrow For Thurs. (Earth Day), 4th grade will be performing a service to the school. We are going to weed and clean up Mary's garden. If you have any gardening gloves and small hand tools at home, could you send them in with your child? They are looking forward to doing this. It will be a nice break after 2 1/2 hours of math testing. Thanks 4-12-10 Monday Li. Circles: read chapters 1-8/stop at 9/do both your jobs/due Tuesday 4/13 Spelling: workbook pages 158-159 Math: workbook page 118 Science: 1. read pages C84-C88/answer questions/due Wed. 2. research ocean animal/due Thurs. 4-15 Social studies: 1. read pages 130-132 (stop at New Plan)/answer teacher questions/due tomorrow 2. article review due Fri. 4-16 (Alejandra, John, Vanessa) Health: do last exercise on paper/due Monday 4-19 Handwriting: workbook page 32 (for some students) Important: Students MUST HAVE a smock for art. We have art on Mondays. If your child does not have one here already, they are to have it here before Friday. No smock-No art. Thanks for your attention to this. :) ************************ 4-1-10 Thursday Lit. Circles: read chapters 1-8/stop at 9/do both your jobs/due Tuesday 4/13 Science: research ocean animal (all information is due Thurs. 4-15) I wish everyone a wonderful Easter! Have a safe and fun-filled break. See everyone on Monday 4-12-Mrs. Park *********************************************************************** 3-31-10 Wed. Vocabulary: unit 9 test tomorrow Lit. Circles: read chapters 1-8/stop at 9/do your 2 jobs/due Tuesday 4-13 English: book page 46: writer's corner Math: workbook page 117 Science: research ocean animal (all due Thurs. 4-15) Spanish: test corrections (if not done in class) due tomorrow Enjoy this beautiful weather-Mrs. Park 3-30-10 Vocabulary: 1. write last 3 sentences from unit 9 (in cursive) 2. unit 9 test Thurs. English: book page 43: do writer's corner spelling: unit 25 test tomorrow Math: worksheet Science: research ocean animal (1st deadline tomorrow for #1-4 facts0 Social studies: chapter 3 test tomorrow Spanish: workbook pages 45, 46, 47/due tomorrow 3-29-10 Mon. Lit. Circles: writing assignment due tomorrow 3-30 Vocabulary: 1. write 3 more sentences in cursive from unit 9 2. test Thurs. unit 9 English: worksheet Spelling: 1. worksheet 2. test Wed. (3-31) unit 25 Science: research ocean animal-facts 1-4 due Wed. 3-31 Social studies: 1. book page 127/do #1-14/due tomorrow 2. test Wed. 3-31 on chapter 3 Spanish: workbook pages 45, 46, 47/due Wed. 3-31 I am sending the red test folders home today. These are from the 3rd quarter. The prayer and pot of gold writing are not to come back. They can stay home. The rest of the papers are to be signed and returned. ************************************************************************ 3-25-10 Thurs. Lit. Circles: writing assignment due Tues. 3-30 Vocabulary: write 3 sentences in cursive using 3 words from unit 9 Math: 1. book page 294: do #4-7 AND #12-15 only 2. Unit test Tuesday 3-30 (chapters 8, 9, and 11) Science: 1. quiz Monday on C78-C83 2. research ocean animal (1st deadline 3-31) Social studies: 1. chapter 3 test Wed. 3-31 2. article review due tomorrow for Victoria, Cate, Wilson, Jayden Spanish: test tomorrow/study vocabulary ********************************************************************** 3-24-10 Wed. Vocabulary: workbook page 87 Science: 1. read pages C78-C83/answer questions on page C83/due tomorrow (given out yesterday) 2. research ocean animal (1st deadline due 3-31) Social studies: 1. quiz tomorrow chapter 3/lesson 4 2. article review due Fri. 3-26 (for Victoria, Wilson, Jayden, Cate) Religion: test tomorrow chapter 12 (brown book) Spanish: test Fri. 3-26/study vocabulary Enjoy today-see everyone tomorrow. Mrs. Park 3-23-10 Tues. Lit. Circles: writing assignment due Tuesday 3-30 Math: chapter 1 test tomorrow Science: 1. read pages C78-C83/answer questions on page C83/due Thurs. 3-25 Social studies: 1. quiz Thurs. 3-25 on chapters 3/lesson 4 2. article review due Fri. 3-26 (Victoria, Wilson, Cate, and Jayden) Religion: test Thurs. 3-25 chapter 12 Have a good afternoon-Mrs. Park 3-22-10 Mon. Lit. Circles: finish book/finish jobs/bring book and packet tomorrow Tues. 3-23 Vocabulary: workbook page 86 English: finish letter (most everyone completed this in class) Spelling: test tomorrow (Tues. 3-23) on review words Math: 1. book page 290: do evens only 2. chapter 11 test Wed. 3-24 Science: 1. signed bottom of blue ocean research form was due today. I am still missing some-return them ASAP. 2. research ocean animal (1st deadline: 3-31) Social studies: 1. workbook pages 33-34/due tomorrow (given on Friday) 2. quiz Thurs. 3-25 on chapter 3/lesson 4 3. article review due Friday 3-26 for Victoria, Wilson, Cate, Jayden Religion: test Thurs. 3-25 chapter 12 (brn. book) Stay dry and warm and see you tomorrow-Mrs. Park 3-19-10 Fri. Lit. Circles:finsh book/finish jobs/due Tues. 3-23 Spelling: review test on Tuesday 3-23 Math: 1. book page 289 quick check #1-10/due Monday Science: 1. return bottom of blue form by Monday 3-22 2. quiz Monday C66-C69 Social studies: 1. workbook pages 33-34/due Tuesday 2. quiz Thurs. (3/25) Chapter 3/lesson 4 Religion: memorize Act of Love by Monday 3/22 *There was no spanish test today. Senora Cummins was out this whole week. So it will be rescheduled.* Have a wonderful weekend! Mrs. Park 3-18-10 Thurs. Lit. Circles: finish book/finish jobs/due Tues. 3-23 Vocabulary: test tomorrow on units 5-8 Spelling: write 9 sentences using review words in cursive Math: 1. practice page 72: sovle and estimate #5, 8, 9, 12, 13, 16, 17 2. workbook page 73 Science: 1. worksheet (from yesterday) due tomorrow 2. quiz Monday 3-22 on C66-C69 Social studies: 1. article review due tomorrow 2. read pages 124-125/answer teacher questions/due tomorrow Religion: memorize Act of Love by 3-22 English: if you haven't given me a complete mailing address within USA, please bring it in tomorrow :) Red test folders went home today! Sorry for the delay but with Williamsburg and one of my son's (and girlfriend) were home for spring break. Have a great afternoon-enjoy the weather! Mrs. Park ************************************************************************* 3-17-10 Wed. Vocabulalry: test on units 5-8 Friday 3-19 English: 1. if you haven't already, bring in the complete mailing address for someone in the USA/due tomorrow 2. worksheet Spelling: put review words in groups according to endings Math: practice page 71: evens solve and estimate all problems from 1-10/odds solve and estimate all problems from 13-22 Science: 1. worksheet due Fri. Social studies: 1. read pages 122-123/answer teacher question/due tomorrow 2. article review for some students due Fri. 3-16-10 Tuesday Lit. Circles: finish book/finish the jobs/due Tuesday 3-23 Vocabulary: test Friday (review of units 5-8) English: bring in complete mailing address of someone in USA/due Thurs. Spelling: ABC order of review words Math: practice page 71: odds do 1-10 (solve and estimate)/evens do 13-22 (solve and estimate) Science: read pages C66-69/answer questions on page C69 in notebooko/due tomorrow Social studies: 1. read pages 120-122 (stop at Virginians and the war)/answer teacher questions in notebook/due tomorrow 2. article review for certain students/due Friday Religion: 1. chapter 11 (brown book) test tomorrow 2. memorize Act of Love by 3-22 Remember: tomorrow dress down day! Must bring in a new or gently used book. Must wear something green! (Remember dress down rules apply) Enjoy the wonderful weather-see you tomorrow-Mrs. Park 15-10 Monday Lit. Circles: due tomorrow/read chapters 11-15/stop at 16/do your job/bring in packet and book English: 1. write in cursive thank you letter to chaperone 2. write in cursive letter to Mrs. Park (favorite part of Williamsburg trip) Math: workbook page 71: odds do odds and evens do evens (MUST SOLVE AND ESTIMATE PROBLEMS) Religion: 1. chapter 11 (brown book) test Wed. 3-17 Social studies: for certain students: article review due Fri. 3-19 Spanish: workbook pages 43-44 due Wed./test Friday 3-19 Important information: 1. PE contracts are due tomorrow. Remember that both student and parent sign it. 2. March 17th (Wed) students may dress down ONLY by bringing in a gently used or new book. They HAVE to wear green. (not everything but some green.) 3-10-10 Wed. Lit. Circles: read chapters 11-15/stop at 16/do your job/due Tues. 3-16 Vocab: workbook page 74/due Mon. 3-15 English: write a letter of acceptance or regret to invitiation/due Mon. 3-15 Spelling: 1. create postcard using 8 spelling words from unit 23/due Mon. 3-15 2. unit 23 test Monday 3-15 Math: practice page 69/SOLVE AND ESTIMATE # 7-16 only/due Mon. 3-15 Science: chapter 3 test Monday 3-15 Religion: 1. chapter 11 test Wed. 3-17 Spanish: 1. workbook page 43-44/due Wed. 3-17 2. test Fri. 3-19 IMPORTANT INFORMATION: ** Field trip tomorrow to Williamsburg. Remember students are to be here 7:30am. We will leave at 7:45am SHARP! Students are to wear clean jeans and sneakers. They are to dress for the weather. Nothing is to be brought by the students except money for the gift shop, which is in an envelope with the child's name. The students are not to bring any food or drinks. We will have snacks and water going down and returning as well as lunch and dinner. You will receive a call from a class parent when we reach Fredricksburg, so you can be at the school on time. Thanks for your attention to this information and support. See you in the am-Mrs. Park 3-9-10 Tues. Vocab: workbook page 73 English: write an invitation to the assigned event Spelling: 1. workbook pages 142 and top of 143 Math: workbook page 69/follow these directions: solve and estimate #1-8 and then solve only #9 Science: 1. do #1-12 from pages B88-89/due tomorrow 2. chapter 3 test Monday 3-15 Social studies: article review for some students due tomorrow Enjoy the wonderful weather! Mrs. Park 3-5-10 Fri. Lit. Circles: read chapters 6-10/stop at 11/do your job/due Tues. 3-9 Vocab: workbook pages 70-71 Math: practice pages 67 and 68 Science: quiz Mon. 3/8 B80-B84 Social studies: 1. write 10 sentences using the words from the board/due Mon. 2. quiz Tues. 3-9 chapter 3/lesson 3 3. article review due Wed. 3-10 Religion: 1. if not done, finish cursive copy of St. paragraphs and pennant/due Mon. Spanish: workbook pages 40A and 41/due Wed. 3-10 *Red test folders went home today* Have a great weekend! Mrs. Park 3-4-10 Thurs. Lit. Circles: read chapters 6-10/stop at 11/do your job/due 3-9 Vocab: workbook page 69 English: test tomorrow chapter 14 Spelling: unit 22 test tomorrow Math: workbook pages 67-68 Science: quiz Monday B80-84 Social studies: 1.write 2-4 sentences to sum up each section of lesson 3/due tomorrow 2. quiz Tuesday 3-9 on chapter 3/lesson 3 Spanish: workbook page 37-complete sentences/due tomorrow 3-3-10 Wed. Vocab: workbook page 68 English: 1. workbook pages 97-98 2. test Fri. chapter 14 Spelling: test Fri. unit 22 Science: quiz Monday 3-8 on B80-84 Social studies: 1. workbook page 32/due tomorrow March birthdays (Marina and Alejandra) can dress down tomorrow! Keep dress down rules in mind. Have a dry evening-Mrs. Park :) 3-2-10 Tues. English: workbook page 95 Math: chapter 9 test tomorrow Science: read pages B80-84/answer questions pg. B84/due tomorrow Social Studies: read pages 114-116/answer only #2, 3, 5, 6, 7 on page 116/due tomorrow Stay warm and dry-see you tomorrow. Mrs. Park 3-1-10 Mon. Lit. Circles: read chapters 1-5/stop at 6/do your job/due tomorrow vocab: test tomorrow unit 8 English: workbook pages 93 and 94 Spelling: 1. workbook pages 134-135 2. test Fri. unit 22 Math: 1. book page 248/do #4-23 (EVENS DO EVENS AND ODDS DO ODDS ONLY) 2. test Wed. 3-3 chapter 9 Science: quiz tomorrow on B74-77 Social studies: read pages 112-114/answer teacher questions/due tomorrow Have a great afternoon-enjoy the weather. Mrs. Park 2-26-10 Friday Lit. Circles: read chapters 1-5/stop at 6/do your job/due Tues. 3-2 Vocab: test Tues. 3-2 unit 8 English: workbook page 92 Math: 1. book page 247/do quick check #1-10/due Mon. 3-1 Science: quiz Tues. 3-2 B74-77 Spanish: workbook page 36 and 39/due Wed. 3-3 Thank you to everyone who returned the permission slip and money in! Now start praying for nice weather (snow and wind-free!). Monday 3-1 is a dress down day ONLY for those who wore their school uniform to church last Sunday. This applies to either this parish or your own. Have a great weekend-Mrs. Park 2-25-10 Thurs. Vocab: 1. the last 3 sentences in cursive 2. test unit 8 Tues. 3-2 English: workbook pages 89, 90,91 (ODDS DO ODDS ON EACH PAGE/EVEN DO EVENS ON EACH PAGE) Spelling: test tomorrow unit 21 Math: pracitce page 61 (ODDS DO ODDS AND EVENS DO EVENS AND ALL DO #18) Science: quiz Tues. 3-2 on B74-B77 2. quiz tomorrow on chapter 3/lesson 2 Spanish: workbook page 35/study flash cards/due tomorrow REMEMBER: Field trip form and money due tomorrow for both student and chaperones! Thank you-Mrs. Park 2-24-10 Wed. Lit. Circles: readh chapters 1-5/stop at 6/do your job/due Tues. 3-2 Vocab: write in cursive 3 more sentences Spelling: test Fri. 2-26 unit 21 Math: practice page 60 (odds do odds/evens do evens/everyone does #5) Science: read pages B74-B77/answer questions on page B77/due tomorrow Social studies: 1. workbook page 29 2. article review due Fri. 2-26 3. quiz Fri. 2-26 chapter 3/lesson 2 Religion: 1. test tomorrow chapter 17 (brown book) Spanish: workbook page 35/study flash cards/due 2-26 Fri. In the Wed. folders that went home today, there is the permission slip for Williamsburg. Attached to that form is your child's form for lunch and dinner. If you are a chaperone, there is another form for your lunch. Please look everything over, fill out permission slip completely, and send in the food forms with money. All of this is due THIS Fri. 2-26. If there are any questions, please let me know. Thank you! Mrs. Park 2-23-10 Tues. Vocabulary: write 3 more cursive sentences with 1 vocab in them Spelling: 1. workbook pages 130 and top of 131 2. test Fri. 2-26 unit 21 Math: workbook page 59(Odds do odds/evens do evens/EVERYONE DOES #17) Science: read pages B74-77/answer questions on page B77 in nbk/due Thur. 2-25 Social studies: 1. read pages 110-111/answer teacher questions/due tomorrow 2. article review due Fri. 2/26 3. quiz Fri. chapter 3/lesson 2 Religion: 1. test Thurs. 2-25 Chapter 17 brown book 2-22-10 Mon. Lit. Circles: complete problem/solution paper with mini review of book/due tomorrow Vocab: write in CURSIVE 3 sentences with 1 vocab word in it English: test tomorrow ch. 13/lessons 7-11 Spelling: 1. workbook pages 128-129 2. unit 21 test Friday 2-26 Math: practice page 58 (odds do odds and evens do evens only) Social studies: 1. read pages 110-111/answer teacher questions/due Wed. 2-24 2. article review for some students/due Fri. 2-26 3. quiz Fri. 2-26 on chapter 3/lesson 2 Religion: 1. test Thurs. 2-25 chapter 17 (brown book) 2. memorize Act of Love prayer by 3-22 Many students need NEW dry erase markers (low odor). They are unable to use the dry erase boards for math. Thanks- Have a dry afternoon-Mrs. Park 2-19-10 Fri. Lit. Circles: complete problem/solution paper with mini review of book/due Tues. 2-23 Vocab: workbook page 65 English: 1. workbook pages 87-88 AND page 135 (on page 135 do ONLY 2 and 4) 2. test Tues. 2-23 chapter 13/lessons 7-11 Spelling: 1. worksheet review 2. unit 20 test Monday 2-22 Math: workbook page 58 (odds do only odd numbered problems/evens do only even numbered problems) Social studies: read pages 106-109/answer teacher question AND fill in chart/due Mon. 2-22 Spanish; workbook pages 33-34/study flashcard words Have a great (snow-free) weekend! See you Monday-Mrs. Park 2-18-10 Thurs. Vocab: workbook page 64 English: 1. workbook pages 86 and 125 2. test Tuesday 2-23 chapter 13/lessons 7-11 Spelling: 1. workbook pages 124 and top of 125 2. unit 20 test Monday 2/22 Math: practice page 57/ODDS DO ODD NUMBERED PROBLEMS/EVENS DO EVEN NUMBERED PROBLEMS Lit. Circles: book should be finished as well as all the jobs! We will discuss the book and jobs tomorrow. Make sure you have your book AND packet. There is no Mass tomorrow but we will attend stations in the afternoon. 2-17-10 Wed. English: 1. workbook pages 84-85 2. test Tuesday 2-23 chapter 13/Lessons 7-11 Spelling: 1. workbook page 122-123 Math: workbook page 57/ODDS DO ONLY ODD PROBLEMS, EVENS DO ONLY EVEN NUMBERED PROBLEMS. (if your child did page 57 last night because I had written the wrong page, they are to do page 56 tonight.) Social Studies: quiz tomorrow Chapter 3/lesson 1 Religion: Today we discussed Lent. As a class, we voted on a spiritual activity for the whole class for Lent. It was decided that everyone would earn money by doing various chores to earn money. THIS IS NOT A PARENT DONATING MONEY EVENT BUT THE STUDENTS ARE EARNING THE MONEY. At the end of Lent, the class will decide whom the money will go to. This was agreed on by ALL. 2-16-10 Tues. WELCOME BACK! English: 1. practice power book page 355/do #1-4 (redo number 1 with your own sentences!) 2. Mystery book filmstrip due TOMORROW Wed. 2-17 Math: workbook page 54 Science: quiz tomorrow Wed. B68-71 Social studies: 1. find 4 facts and 1 opinion in chapter 3/lesson 1: put in notebook/ due tomorrow 2. Quiz Thurs. 2-18 chapter 3/lesson1 *Several students did not do their blizzard assignment from Mrs. Dalmut. It was due today for me (I am grading them for an English grade). They need to turn it in to me tomorrow! Have a great afternoon-see you tomorrow. Mrs. Park 2-11-10 Thurs. Hope everyone is enjoying their time off and getting lots of time in the snow. Here are a few things to keep in mind, which we discussed a week ago: Science: quiz Wed. 2-17 B68-B71 Social studies: quiz chapter 3/lesson 1 Thurs. 2-18 Spelling: test unit 19 Tues. 2-16 Lit. Circles: (this is new) finish the book and do your last job or jobs/due Tues. 2-16 English: everyone is REQUIRED to submit something to the literary magazine which Mrs. Dalmut talked about. I will grade it for an English grade. Enjoy the rest of the time off-see everyone Tues. 2-16. Mrs. Park ********************************************************************* 2-4-10 Thurs. Lit. Circles: read chapters 11-15/stop at 16/do your job/due Tues. 2-9 English: 1. workbook page 76 and 77/due tomorrow 2. mystery book report due Wed. 2-17 Spelling; 1. workbook pages 118-121/due tomorrow 2. unit 19 test tomorrow Math: book page 223: quick check/due tomorrow Science: 1. worksheet/due tomorrow 2. quiz Mon. or Tues. B68-B71 Social studies: 1. read pages 103-104/answer teacher questions/due tomorrow 2. article review by certain students due tomorrow Have a great evening-we may see you tomorrow or not. Mrs. Park 2-2-10 Tuesday Math: chapter 8 test tomorrow spelling: 1. workbook pages 116-117 2. unit 19 test Friday Science: read pages B68-71/answer questions on B71 in notebook/due tomorrow Social studies: 1. read pages 100-103/answer teacher questions/due tomorrow 2. article review due Fri. for certain students Have a great afternoon-snow??? Mrs. Park 2-1-10 Mon. Lit. Circles: read chapters 6-10/stop at 11/due tomorrow-BRING YOUR PACKET AND BOOK TO SCHOOL! Math: chapter 8 test Wed. 2-3 English: mystery filmstrip due Wed. 2-17 Social studies: article review for certain students due Fri. 2-5 Enjoy no immediate homework tonight! Great basketball game-go 4th grade! 1-29-10 Fri. Lit. Circles: read chapters 6-10/stop at 11/do your job/bring your book and packet to class! due Tues. 2-2 English: mystery book filmstrip due Wed. 2-17 Math: 1. workbook page 55 2. test Wed. 2-3 Chapter 8 Science: quiz B64-B67 Mon. 2-1 Religion: 1. read and do page 51 2. quiz Mon. 2-1/review chapter 8 (GREEN Book) IMPORTANT: Dress down day Mon. 2-1 for student appreciation day (wear or bring sneakers-need them for basketball game). Dress down rules apply-refer to handbook if any questions. If anyone wears their uniform to church this Sunday (no matter where you go to Mass), they will earn a dress down certificate for next Monday 2-8-10. Have a great weekend-see you at Mass on Sunday. Mrs. Park :) 1-28-10 Thurs. Lit.Circles: read chapters 6-10/stop at 11/do your job/bring your book and packet to class! due Tues. 2-2 English: 1. test tomorrow chapter 13/lessons 1-5 2. mystery book film-strip due Wed. 2-17 Spelling: test tomorrow on review list Math: workbook page 54 AND book page 219 #31-36 only. Science: quiz Monday 2-1on B64-B67 Social studies: article review due tomorrow for some students Religion: rough draft of prayer to God/due tomorrow (choir members: handwriting pages 24 and 25 due tomorrow. Rest of the class will finish it tomorrow before Mass.) Spanish: test tomorrow Have a great evening-Mrs. Park 1-27-10 Wed. Lit. Circles: read chapters 6-10/stop at 11/do your job!/bring your book and packet to class! due Tues. 2-2 Vocab: unit 7 test tomorrow English: 1. test Fri. 1-29 on chapter 13/lessons 1-5 2. bring photo of you doing something-we will not harm them. Everyone must have one-it cannot be drawn. This was due today and many did not have them. The picture needs to be here tomorrow! 3. Book report due Wed. 2-17 Spelling: 1. write 10 sentences in cursive with 10 spelling words 2. review unit test Fri. 1-29 Math: workbook page 53 Science: read pages B64-66/answer questions from B66 in notebook/due tomorrow Social studies: 1. chapter 2 test tomorrow 2. article review for certain students/due Fri. 1-29 Spanish: test Fri. 1-29 DRESS DOWN DAY TOMORROW FOR JANUARY BIRTHDAYS ONLY! (This is for Elizabeth and Sam C.) Have a great evening-Mrs. Park 1-26-10 Tues. Lit. Circles: read chapters 6-10/stop at 11/do your job/due Tues. 2-2 Vocab: test Thurs. unit 7 English: 1. workbook pages 71-72 2. test Fri. 1/29 Chapter 13/lessons 1-5 3. BRING IN A PHOTO OF YOU DOING SOMETHING/DUE TOMORROW!!! 4. mystery report due Wed. 2-17 Spelling: 1. backwards order (z-a order) 2. Test Fri. 1-29 (review words) Math: workbook page 51 Social studies: test Thurs. 1-28 chapter 2 Report cards went home in red test folders, as well as any awards or certificates. It was a successful 2nd quarter. :) Have a good evening-Mrs. Park 1-22-10 Fri. Lit. Circles: read chapters 1-5/stop at 6/do your job/due Tues. 1-26 Vocab: write 6 more sentences with rest of words from unit 7/due Tues. English: 1. workbook page 70 2. answer debate question: Does chocolate milk belong in schools? why or why not? 3. test Fri. 1-29 Chapter 2/lessons 1-5 4. Mystery book report due Wed. 2-17 Math: practice page 75 Science: read article (Power Surge) and answer questions/due Tues. 1-26 Social studies: test Thurs. 1-28 Chapter 2 Spanish: 1. workbook pages 28-29/due Wed. 2. Test Fri. 1-29 Have a great 3 day weekend! See everyone Tuesday-Mrs. Park 1-21-10 Thurs. Vocab: write 6 sentences using 6 words unit 7/due tomorrow English: workbook page 69 Spelling: test tomorrow unit 17 Math: practice page 74 Science: read article (Power Surge) and answer questions on back/due Tues. 1-26 Social studies: 1. test Chapter 2 Thurs. 1-28 spanish: write final draft of animal paper due tomorrow 1-20-10 Wed. Vocab: workbook page 59 English: workbook pages 67 and 68 Spelling: 1. workbook pages 106 and top of 107 2. test Fri. unit 17 Math: multiplication problems for some students Social studies: quiz tomorrow chapter 2/lesson 3 DRESS DOWN DAY TOMORROW-THURS. BRING AT LEAST $1.00 TO DONATE TOWARD RELIEF FOR THE PEOPLE IN HAITI. (Remember to follow dress down rules when picking your outfit. ) 1-19-10 Tues. Vocab: workbook page 58 English: workbook pages 65 and 66 Spelling: 1. workbook pages 104-105 2. test Fri. Unit 17 Math: 1. test tomorrow chapter 16 2. multiplication problems for some students Science: EVERYONE reads the article Power Surge and answer questions on back/due Tuesday 1-26 Social studies: 1. workbook page 24 2. quiz Thurs. 1/21 Chapter 2/lesson 3 Religion: chapter 10 test tomorrow INFORMATION:Dress down day Thursday 1-21 BUT you need to give a donation of at least $1.00. The money will go to Haiti. 1-15-10 Fri. Math: 1. book page 426 #1-20 due Tues. 1/19 (this was given Thursday night) 2. multiplication problems 3. test Wed. 1-20 chapter 16 Social studies: 1. read pages 79-81/answer teacher questions/due Tuesday 1-19 2. quiz Thurs. 1-21 Chapter 2/lesson 3 Religion: test Wed. 1-20 chapter 10 (brown book) Spanish: write a paragraph in spanish about favorite animals due Wed. 1-20 Have a wonderful weekend! See you Tuesday-Mrs. Park 1-14-10 Thurs. English: workbook pages 63 and top of 64 AND diagram sentence 2 part BT Spelling: test tomorrow unit 16 Math: 1. Book page 426 do #1-20 in notebook/due TUES. 1-20 2. Mulitplication problems due tomorrow 3. Chapter 16 test Wed. 1-21 Social studies: read pages 77-79 (stop at New Cultures) AND answer teacher questions in notebook/due tomorrow Spanish: workbook page 26 due tomorrow Tomorrow is Christina Lee's last day. She will be returning to Korea. The class will miss her :( We will have pizza at lunch. 1-13-10 Vocab: unit 6 test tomorrow (sorry for the mix-up yesterday) Spelling: unit 16 test Fri. Math: practice page 104 Spanish: workbook page 26 (due Fri.) 1-12-10 Tuesday Vocab: test tomorrow Unit 6 English: test tomorrow Ch. 12/lessons 3-5 Spelling: 1. workbook pages 100 and top of 101 2. test Fri. unit 16 Math: practice page 103 AND multiplication problems 2. read pages 74-77/answer teacher questions Religion: finish card for Father Tewes if not done We have Mass tomorrow-make sure we are in complete uniform. Thanks-Mrs. Park 1-11-10 Monday Lit. Circles: finish the book/do your job! I have given a 1 day grace period on this because so many did not do this over the weekend! This is graded as a test for reading. Vocab: 1. write 6 more sentences using the rest of the words 2. unit 6 test Thurs. 1-14 English: 1. workbook pages 61 and 62 2. test Wed. 1-13 on chapter 12/lessons 3-5 Spelling: 1. workbook pages 98-99 2. unit 16 test Fri. 1-15 Math: practice page 102 AND multiplication problems Social studies: article review due Wed. 1-13 for certain students Stay warm. See everyone tomorrow-Mrs. Park 1-8-10 Lit. Circles: finish the book/do your last job/due Mon. 1-11 Vocab: 1. write 6 sentences using any 6 words from unit 6 in notebook English: 1. workbook page 57 2. test Wed. 1-13 (chapter 12/lessons 3-5) Math: practice page 101 AND multiplication problems Have a wonderful weekend! Stay warm-Mrs. Park 1-7-10 English: workbook page 56 Spelling: 1. letter of complaint due tomorrow Fri. 2. unit 15 test tomorrow Math: practice page 99 AND multiplication problems Science: planet project due tomorrow Social studies: article review for certain students due tomorrow Religion: memorize Act of Hope by tomorrow Have a great afternoon-stay warm! Mrs. Park 1-6-10 Vocab: 1. workbook page 53 Spelling: 1. write letter of complaint (page 95). either cursive, print, or type. due 1-8 2. unit 15 test Friday 1-8 Math: practice page 98 AND multiplication problems Science: planet project due Fri. 1-8 Social studies: 1. quiz tomorrow chapter 2/lessons 1-2 2. article review by certain students due Fri. 1-8 Religion: 1. chapter 9 test Friday 2. memorize Act of Hope by Fri. 1-8 We went to confession this morning. Then we stayed in the church and completed a rosary. A wonderful way to end our morning. Then this afternoon we had a terrific Epiphany party with crafts and food! Thanks to everyone, especially Mrs. Campbell and Mrs. Carley! Stay warm-Mrs. Park 1-5-10 Vocab: 1. workbook page 52 2. Unit 6 test Thurs. 1-14 English: workbook page 54 AND diagram sentences #2 and 5 Part B Spelling: 1. workbook pages 94 and top of 95 (given time in class to do this) 2. unit 15 test Fri. 1-8 Math: multiplication problems (solve and estimate) Social studies: 1. quiz Thurs. 1-7 (chapter 2/lessons 1 and 2) 2. article review for certain students due Fri. 1-8 Religion: 1. memorize Act of Hope (Fri.) 2. chapter 9 test (brown book) Fri. 1-8 Remember to turn in PE contracts tomorrow if forgot today! (parent signature and student) Stay warm-Mrs. Park 1-4-10 English: workbook pages 52 and 53 Spelling: 1. workbook pages 92 and 93 2. Unit 15 test Fri. 1-8 Math: 1. multiplication problems 2. Ch. 15 test tomorrow 3. redo math papers in red folder, if needed. Parent sign. Social Studies: 1. workbook page 20 2. quiz Thurs. 1-7 chapter 2/lessons 1 and 2 Religion: memorize Act of Hope by 1-8 Welcome back! Stay warm! Mrs. Park 12-18-09 Lit. Circles: read chapters 10, 11, 12, 13/ do your job/due Monday 12-21 Math: multiplication problems AND study for chapter 15 test Mon. 12-21 Science: 1. cursive copy of IN-CLASS space mission research due Mon. 12-21 2. planet project due 1-8-10 Social studies: read pages 68-69/answer teacher questions/due Mon. 12-21 Religion: memorize Act of Hope by 1-8-10 INFORMATION: Please read Mrs. Dalmut's emails about the weather and school events. I have discussed with the students when everything is due in the event of snow! ********************************************************************** 12-17-09 spelling: unit 14 test tomorrow Math: 1. multiplication problems in notebook/due tomorrow 2. Chapter 5 test Mon. 12-21 Science: planet project due 1-8-10 Social studies: 1. read pages 68-69/answer teacher questions/DUE Monday 12-21 2. article review by CERTAIN students due tomorrow Religion: 1. chapter 8 test tomorrow 2. memorize Act of Hope by 1-8-10 Spanish: find and bring in a picture of your favorite animal/due tomorrow INFORMATION: The students are to be here tonight 6:45pm. They are to come to the classroom. Everyone is to be here. See you tonight-Mrs. Park 12-16-09 spelling: worksheet (both sides) and unit 14 test Fri. 12-18 Math: practice page 97 AND multiplication problems in NBK/due tomorrow Social studies: read pages 66-67/answer teacher questions/due tomorrow article review for CERTAIN students due Fri. 12-18 Religion: chapter 8 test Fri. 12-18 memorize Act of Hope by 1-8-10 Spanish: find picture of favorite animal/due Fri. 12-18 Tomorrow the students can wear a Santa Hat or other Christmas hat. Everyone still wears their school uniform EXCEPT FOR DECEMBER BIRTHDAYS who can dress down. Dress down rules apply. So Victoria is the only one who will be out of uniform! Have a wonderful evening-Mrs. Park :) 12-15-09 Spelling: 1. workbook pages 88 and top of 90 2. unit 14 test Fri. 12-18 Math: workbook page 96 AND multiplication problems in notebook Science: chapter 4 test tomorrow Social studies: read pages 64-66 (More settlers arrive) and answer teacher questions/ due tomorrow Religion: 1. chapter 8 (brown book) test Fri. 12-18 Have a great evening! Mrs. Park :) 12-14-09 Spelling: 1. workboook pages 86-87 math: practice page 94 and create graph with information given Science: 1. chapter 4 test Wed. 12-16 Social studies: article review for CERTAIN students due Fri. 12-18 Health: look at nutrition facts of iodized salt/due Mon. 12-21 Information: If your child will not be here next Mon. or Tues., please let the office AND me know. There will be several tests next week, which your child will need to take before the break. Thanks! Have a great afternoon! Mrs. Park 12-11-09 Lit. Circles: read chapters 7, 8, and 9/do your job/due Mon. 12-14 Math: practice page 93/due Mon. Science: 1. book pages C122-123/do #1-12 in notebook/due Mon. 12-14 2. Ch. 4 (space) test Wed. 12-16 3. work on planet project/due Fri. 1-8-10 Spanish: study pages 23-24 *Red test folders did go home today-I am positive this time.* Have a wonderful weekend. Stay warm-Mrs. Park 12-10-09 Spelling: 1. write thank you letter using 8 spelling words from unit 13/due tomorrow 2. unit 13 test tomorrow 2. unit 13 test tomorrow Math: in notebook, write the number of windows, doors, and closets in your house. (3 different sets of numbers) due tomorrow Science: 1. quiz tomorrow C118-121 2. planet project due 1/8 Social studies: quiz tomorrow Ch. 2/Lesson 1 Spanish: correct test and parent signature/make flashcards colors and shapes 12-9-09 Lit. Circles:read chapters 7, 8, and 9/do your job/due Mon. 12-14 Vocab: unit 5 test tomorrow 12-10 Spelling: 1. write thank you letter using 8 spelling words from unit 13/due Fri. 2. unit 13 test Fri. Math: unit test tomorrow (chapters 6-7) Science: quiz Friday 12-11 on C118-C121 Social studies: quiz Friday 12-11 on Ch.2/Lesson 1 Religion: chapter 6-7 test tomorrow (We wanted to finish our read-aloud book, so we did not get to take the test. We all wanted to see how the book ended! :) Tomorrow after lunch, the class will enjoy a movie and extra snack. The links in the classroom touched the floor. It was a class vote. Now we are working on another link chain. 12-8-09 Vocab: unit 5 test Thurs. 12-10 Spelling: 1. workbook pages 82 and top of 83 2. unit 13 test Friday 12-11 English: finish letter if not already done in class Math: 1. book page 194f/do ONLY #1, 3, 4, 6, 8, 10. 13, 15, 18, 20, 22, 24, 25 2. unit (chapters 6 and 7) test Thurs. 12-10 Science: quiz Fri. 12-11 on C118-121 Social studies: quiz Fri. 12-11 on chapter 2/Lesson 1 Religion: chapter 6 and 7 test tomorrow *We get out tomorrow at 1:30pm, so no Spanish.* 12-7-09 Spelling: 1. workbook pages 80-81 2. Unit 13 test Fri. 12-11 Math: 1. book page 189 (quick check) do #1-10 2. Chapter 7 test (all except 7.5) tomorrow 12-8 3. Unit test (chapters 6 and 7) Thurs. 12-10 Science: read pages C118-121/answer questions on page 121 in NBK/due tomorrow Social studies: 1. read pages 60-61/answer teacher questions in NBK/due tomorrow 2. quiz Fri. 12-11 on Ch. 2/Lesson 1 Religion: test Wed. 12-9 Chapters 6 and 7 in brown book INFORMATION: Mass tomorrow! We will have NO PE, so they are not to wear it. They are to wear their regular school uniform. Thanks for your attention to this. Have a warm afternoon-Mrs. Park 12-4-09 Lit. Circles: read chapters 4-6/do your job/due Mon. 12-7 Math: 1. book page 190/DO EVENS from #4-24/due Mon. 12-7 2. Ch. 7 Test Tuesday 12-8 (all of chapter 7 EXCEPT 7.5) Science: record moon nightly/due Monday 12-7 Social studies: 1. read pgs 60-61/answer teacher questions in NBK/due Tues. 12-8 2. Article review for CERTAIN students/Mon. 12-7 3. Quiz Friday 12-11 (Chapter 2/Lesson 1) Spanish: 1. correct test and parent signature 2. make flashcards for colors and shapes Sorry about my mistake with the red folders yesterday-a hectic dismissal. They DID go home today. Have a great weekend-Mrs. Park 12-3-09 Vocab.: workbook page 49 Spelling: test tomorrow review list Math: workbook page 49 Science: 1. quiz tomorrow C108-113 2. record moon nightly Social studies: read pgs 58-59/answer teacher questions in nbk/due tomorrow Religion: Jesse Tree Project due tomorrow Spanish: textbook page 48-49 study Red test folders went home today! Look at them, sign them, and return them, please. 12-1-09 Happy Birthday, Victoria! Vocab. workbook page 47 English: 1. workbook page 51 AND diagram #5 (Part A) 2. Ch. 12/Lesson 1 and 2 quiz Thursday 12/3 Spelling: 1. create 10 riddles with review list 2. test Friday 12-4 review list Math: practice page 46 ONLY #1-12 Science: 1. moon watch nightly 2. quiz C108-113 Friday 12-4 Social studies: read pages 54-56/answer 2 teacher questions in notebook Religion: Jesse Tree Project due Friday 12-4 Have a great afternnon-Mrs. Park :) 11-30-09 Lit. circles: read chapters 4-6/do your job/due Mon. 12-7 Vocab.: workbook page 46 English: workbook pages 49 (whole page) and 50 (only A and B) ALSO diagram #3 and 5 on page 49 (part A) Spelling: 1. write review words in ABC order in notebook Math: workbook page 46 DO ONLY #1-10 Science: 1. record moon nightly! THIS WAS EXTENDED 1 WEEK/due Mon. 12-7 2. read pages C108-C113/answer questions on page 113 in notebook 3. return signed planet project paper by Friday 12-4 Today I sent home the information about the planet project. We talked about it in class. They are so excited about this project! If you have any questions, send a note or email. I extended the moon watch another week. They will write on the back of their paper. I am hoping that the weather cooperates, so we have plenty of information. If it doesn't, I may have to extend it again. I will make that call next Monday. Try to stay dry this afternoon-Mrs. Park 11-25-09 Lit. Circles: read chapter 1-3/do your job/due Monday 11-30 Science: record moon phase nightly I wish everyone a Happy and Safe Thanksgiving! Enjoy, eat, and relax. See everyone Monday 11-30. Mrs. Park :) 11-24-09 Lit. Circles: read chapters 1-3/do your job/due Mon. 11-30 English: test tomorrow Chapter 11/lessons 4-7 math: workbook page 44 Science: record moon Religion: 1. return signed Jesse Tree Project paper by 11-25 2. Jesse Tree Project due Friday 12-4 1. Tomorrow is a dress down day. 4th grade wears GREEN! Dress down rules apply! 2. Dismissal tomorrow is 11:20am!!!!!!!!! Have a great afternoon-Mrs. Park :) 11-23-09 Lit. Circles: read chapters 1-3/do your job/due Monday 11-30 English: 1. workbook page 41 2. test Wed. 11-25 on Chapter 11/lessons 4-7 Math: workbook page 43 Science: record moon watch Social studies: 1. article review due tomorrow for CERTAIN STUDENTS ONLY! 2. chapter 1 test tomorrow Religion: 1. Jesse Tree project due Friday 12-4 2. return signed paper for project by Wed. 11-25 Spanish: workbook page 22/due Wed. 12/2 A HUGE THANK YOU TO EVERYONE WHO HELPED WITH THE SOUP TODAY! IT WAS A HUGE HIT WITH EVERYONE! IT WAS A PERFECT DAY FOR SOUP. WE COULD NOT HAVE DONE IT WITHOUT ALL OF YOU-THANKS! :) 1. dress down day Wed. 11-25. 4th grade wears GREEN! dress down rules apply! 2. Tomorrow is picture retake day. If your child was absent when we took our pictures, he/she will need to wear the school uniform and NOT the PE uniform. Those pictures are the ones in the yearbook. However, your child can wear sneakers. Make sure the girls have shorts on under their skirts for PE. There WILL NOT BE a class retake picture :) It was fine. 11-20-09 English: workbook pages 44 and 45/DO ODDS ONLY! Science: moon watch activity nightly Social Studies: 1. book page 51/do #1-10 in notebook/due Monday 2. chapter 1 test Tuesday 11-24 3. article review/group 2 due Tuesday 11-24 Religion: 1. Chapter 5 test Monday 1. Matthew Reilly dress down Monday 11-23 for Nov. birthday 2. dress down day Wed. 11-25 "4th grade must wear green" normal dress down rules apply. 3. Zuppa Lunch is Monday. Thanks to everyone who has volunteered to donate items as well as volunteer to help set up and serve. It will be a lot of fun! Have a great weekend! See you Monday-Mrs. Park 11-19-09 Spelling: test tomorrow Unit 11 Science: 1. quiz tomorrow on C102-105 2. moon watch activity Social studies: 1. write 5 questions and answers on index card/due tomorrow 3. Article review:group 1 due tomorrow/group2 due Tues. 11-24 Spanish: finish vocab worksheet/test tomorrow Religion: chapter 5 test Monday 11-23 1. Monday 11-23: Matthew Reilly can dress down for Nov. birthday :) 2. Wed. 11-25:dress down day *4th GRADE WEARS GREEN* dress down rules apply! Have a dry afternoon-Mrs. Park :) 11-18-09 Vocab: test tomorrow Units 1-4 Spelling: unit 11 test Friday Math: chapter 6 test tomorrow Science: 1. record moon phase 2. quiz C102-105 Friday Social Studies: 1. read pgs. 44-49/answer questions 5-6 on page 49 in NBK/due Thursday 11-19 2. chapter 1 test Tuesday 11/24 3. article review: group 1 due Fri. 11-20/group 2 due Tues. 11-24 Spanish: finish vocab. worksheet/Test Friday 11-20 INFORMATION: 1. Wed. folders went home today. 11-17-09 Tuesday Vocab.: test Thursday units 1-4 English: workbook page 40 ALSO diagram sentence 2 and 5 Spelling: workbook 70 and top of 71/unit 11 test Friday Math: 1. book page 169/sets A,B,C ODDS ONLY! in notebook 2. Chapter 6 test Thursday 11-19 Science: 1. quiz C102-105 Friday 11-20 2. record nightly moon watching result Social studies: 1. read pages 44-49/answer #5 and 6 in notebook/due Thurs. 11-19 2. Chapter 1 test Tuesday 11/24 11-16-09 Hurray! I am finally back so here is school notes: Vocab.: test units 1-4 Thursday 11-19 English: wbk page 38 AND diagram #2 and 9 Spelling: wbk pages 68-69 AND Unit 11 test Friday 11-20 Math: 1. wbk page 40 Science: 1. quiz C102-105 Friday 2. begin moon watching tonight 3. return signed part of moon letter due tomorrow Spanish: workbook pages 14-15/due Wed. 11-18 Red test folders went home today. These papers are all from this new quarter. 11-9-09 Vocab.: workbook page 41 Reading: final cursive copy of biography book report due Mon. 11-16 English: 1. workbook page 37 2. Test Friday Chapter 11/Lessons 1-3 Spelling: workbook pages 62-63/test Unit 10 Friday Math: practice page 41 (ESTIMATE EVENS/SOLVE ODDS) Social Studies: 1. workbook page 14/due tomorrow 2. quiz on Ch. 1/Lesson 4 on Thursday 11-12 Religion: chapter 4 test tomorrow (brown book) Report cards went home in the Wed. folders today. Mrs. Park 11-6-09 Lit. Circles: do your job/finish the book/due Mon. 11-9 Reading: rough draft biography book report/due Mon. 11-9 Vocab.: workbook pages 38-39 English: workbook pages 34, 35, 36 DO ONLY EVENS! Math: workbook page 41/ESTIMATE EVENS/SOLVE ODDS Social studies: 1. workbook page 14/due Tuesday 11/10 2. Ch. 1/Lesson 4 quiz Thurs. 11/12 Religion: Chapter 4 (brown book) test Tuesday 11-10 Spanish: workbook pages 14-15/due Wed. 11-18 (yes, that is 18 and not 8) INFORMATION:Report cards go home on Monday! Have a wonderful weekend!Mrs. Park :) 11-5-09 Vocab.: workbook page 37 English: workbook page 33 Spelling: unit 9 test tomorrow Math: practice page 39 (SOLVE ODDS/ESTIMATE EVENS) Science: quiz tomorrow C98-C101 Social studies: read pages 38-42/answer questions #1 and #4 on page 42 in notebook also answer teacher question/due tomorrow Religion: chapter 4 (brown book) test Tuesday 11-10 11-4-09 Vocab.: workbook page 36 Spelling: 1.write ad using 8 spelling words/due tomorrow 2. unit 9 test Friday Math: workbook page 39 (solve evens/estimate odds) Science: quiz Friday on C98-C101 Social Studies: article review due Friday FOR CERTAIN STUDENTS Computer: bring in tomorrow paper copy of data information from Halloween Red test folders went home today! 11-3-09 Lit. Circles: finish book/do your job/due Monday 11-9 Reading: rough draft biography book report due Monday 11-9 Spelling: 1. write an ad using 8 of your spelling words/due Thurs. 11/5 2. unit 9 test Friday 11-6 Math: workbook page 37 Science: read pages C98-C101/answer questions on page C101 in notebook/due tomorrow Social studies: article review for CERTAIN STUDENTS due Friday 11-6 Computer: bring in written copy of data information of Halloween candy/due 11-5 Remember tomorrow is 11:30 dismissal! Have a great afternoon-Mrs. Park 11-2-09 Lit. Circles: finish the book/do your job/due Monday 11-9 English: test tomorrow Ch. 10/Lessons 4-7 Spelling: workbook pages 56-57/unit 9 test Friday Math: workbook page 36 Science: read pages C98-C101/answer questions on page C101/due Wed. 11-4 Social studies: 1. quiz tomorrow on Chapter 1/lesson 3 2. article review by CERTAIN STUDENTS due Friday 11-6 Computer: create paper copy of a data chart with 5 different types of candy that you received from Hallowee/due Thursday 11-5 Have a great afternoon-see you tomorrow. Mrs. Park :) 10-30-09 Lit. Circles: read pages 45-97/do your job/due Monday 11-2 English: 1. workbook pages 31-32 2. chapter 10/lessons 4-7 test Tuesday 11-3 Social studies: quiz Tuesday Ch. 1/Lesson 3 Spanish: workbook page 13/study vocabulary/due Wed. 11-4 Have a great weekend-be safe on Halloween. See you Monday-Mrs. Park 10-29-09 Reading: rough draft of biography is due 11-9 Monday English: 1. worksheet 2. Ch. 10/Lessons 4-7 Test Tuesday 11-3 Spelling: unit 8 test tomorrow Math: chapter 4 test tomorrow Social studies: 1. workbook page 12 due tomorrow 2. quiz Tuesday 11-3 Chapter 1/Lesson 3 3. pamphlets due tomorrow 4. article review (BY CERTAIN STUDENTS ONLY) due tomorrow Spanish: make flashcards on vocab. page 26/29 due tomorrow Remember to stock up on dry erase markers-LOW ODOR! 10-28-09 Vocab.: unit 4 test tomorrow English: 1. workbook page 29/diagram sentence #5 part A 2. Ch. 10/Lessons 4-7 test Tuesday 11-3 Spelling: unit 8 test Friday Math: 1. book page 107/do sets D and E-odd problems only 2. Chapter 4 test Friday 10-30 Social studies: 1. read pages 36-37/answer questions page 37 #1, 2, 5, and 6 2. pamphlet due Friday Spanish: make flashcards of vocab. page 26/29 due Friday 1. Tomorrow is gaudy day. The students may participate at the cost of $1.00. Keep in mind the dress down requirements when considering your child's outfit. 2. Test folders went home today. 3. MANY< MANY< MANY students need dry erase markers!!!!!!!!!! We use them every day for Math and many days for English. Your child is not losing them. We really go thru a lot of them, so please stock up. It is a shame if your child cannot use their dry erase boards in class, because they don't have supplies. Thanks for your quick attention to this! 4. Today we went to confession. Father Fischer will be rotating classes so that every class gets the opportunity to go at least once a month. :) 10-27-09 English: workbook page 28 ALSO diagram sentence #1 in Part A Spelling: workbook pages 52 and top of 53/unit 8 test Friday Math: 1. book page 107/do sets A,B,C: odd problems only 2. chapter 4 test Friday Social studies: 1. pamphlet due Friday (except for 3 students and they know who they are) 2. Read pgs 34-35/answer question in noteboook/due tomorrow Spanish: finish number worksheet/due tomorrow Music: worksheet due Thurs. Vocab.: test Thursday Unit 4 INFORMATION:This Thursday the students (Who would like to) can dress down with gaudy style in mind. THEY MUST BRING $1.00 IN ORDER TO DO THIS. The regular dress down rules apply: no shorts, sandals, tank tops,etc. We reviewed a little today about some ideas. I will have more information tomorrow about this. Stay dry! See everyone tomorrow-Mrs. Park 10-26-09 Literature Circles: read pages 45-97/do your job/due Monday 11-2 Spelling: workbook pages 50-51/unit 8 test Friday Math: workboo page 28/Chapter 4 Test Friday Vocab.: unit 4 test Thursday Science: chapter test C7-C31 tomorrow Social studies: 1.finish up pamphlet (typing) 2. article review for CERTAIN STUDENTS due Fri. Religion: chapter 3 (brown book) test tomorrow REMINDER: Things are going to move quickly. The end of the 1st quarter is this Friday, so we are finishing up a lot of projects and tests. Students are to keep up with their assignments and projects. Some students have a different schedule due to being absent. Any questions, send a note in or an email. Thanks-Mrs. Park ************************************************************** 10-22-09 Lit. Circles: read pages 3-44/do your job/due 10-26 English: workbook pages 24-25 Math: practice page 27 Science: 1. work on group project-weather poster-ready to assemble 10-26 2. Test Tuesday 10-27 C7-C31 Social studies: 1. finish up pamphlet 2. article review by certain students due Friday 10-30 Religion: 1. chapter 3 brown book test Tuesday 2. memorize Act of Faith (due to pictures and pamphlet work in computer lab, I did not test today but will on Monday) Spanish: finish number worksheet Have a great weekend. See you Monday-Mrs. Park 10-21-09 Vocabulary: workbook page 34 English: workbook pages 22 and 23 Spelling: unit 7 test tomorrow Math: workbook page 27 SHOW YOUR WORK! Science: 1. chapter test Tuesday 10-27 on C7-C31 2.work on group weather project/due Monday 10-26Social studies: FOR ONLY CERTAIN STUDENTS! review article due Friday 10-30 Religion: 1. memorize Act of Faith by tomorrow 2. chapter 3 test Tuesday 10-27 Spanish: finish number worksheet by 10-28 Music: worksheet due tomorrow REMINDER: Tomorrow is picture day in complete school uniform. Have a great afternoon. Enjoy the warmer weather-Mrs. Park 10-20-09 Vocab: workbook page 33 Spelling: 1. rainbow words unit 7 (if you were absent then you do workbook pages 46-47 and not rainbow words!) 2. unit 7 test Thursday Math: practice page 26 Science: chapter test Tues. 10-27 on C7-C31 Religion: memorize Act of Faith by 10-22 Music: worksheet due Thursday Have a great afternoon-enjoy the warmer weather and SUN. Mrs. Park 10-19-09 Vocab.: workbook page 32 English: test on Chapter 10/Lessons 1-3 only! tomorrow Spelling: workbook pages 44-45/unit 7 test Thurs. Math: workbook page 26 Science: 1. quiz tomorrow C26-C31 2. Test Tuesday October 27 on C7-C31 REMINDER: PE contracts due tomrrow! 10-16-09 English: 1. workbook page 20 2. Chapter 10/Lessons 1-3 only Test Tuesday 10-20 Math: workbook pages 23, 24, 25 Science: 1. C26-C31 Quiz Tuesday 10-20 2. Chapter test (pages C7-C31) Tuesday 10-27 Spanish: workbook page 9/book pages 17-19 (numbers 0-29)/due Wed. 10-21 Music: workbheet due 10-22 Have a great weekend! Prayers to families with students celebrating Confirmation this weekend. Stay dry-Mrs. Park 10-15-09 Vocab:unit 3 test tomorrow English: 1. workbook page 19 2. Chapter 10/Lessons 1-3 Only! test Tuesday 10-20 Spelling: reveiw test tomorrow Math: practice page 22 (patterns in .....) Science: worksheet from yesterday due tomorrow Spanish: workbook page 9/book page 17-19 (numbers 0-29) by Wed. 10-23 Social studies FOR ONLY SELECT STUDENTS-review article due tomorrow We had a great visit with Jim Weiss today. Try and stay dry and warm-Mrs. Park ####################################################### 10-14-09 Vocab.: unit 3 test moved to Friday English: workbook page 18 Spelling: review list-8 sentences in cursive/test Friday Math: workbook page 21 Science: worksheet/due Friday Religion: 1. memorize Act of Faith/10-22 2. chapter 24 and chapter 2 test tomorrow (brown book) Social studies: ONLY FOR CERTAIN STUDENTS! review article/due Friday 10-13-09 English: workbook page 17 Spelling: 1.review list-ABC order and vowel & consonant count 2. test Friday Math: workbook page 20 Science: read pages C26-C31/answer questions from page C31 into notebook/due tomorrow Religion: 1. memorize Act of Faith by 10-22 2. chapter 24 and chapter 2 test Thursday (Brown book) *Current events article For only: Jasmine, Cate, Bridget, Matthew, Jayden, and Jamie Due Friday 10-9-09 WINTER UNIFORM BEGINS TUESDAY! THAT INCLUDES PE-SWEATPANTS AND SWEATSHIRTS! Have a wonderful 3 day weekend! If you are traveling, have a safe trip. See you Tuesday-Mrs. Park 10-8-09 Vocabulary: workbook page 29/unit 3 test Thursday 10-15 Math: chapter 3 test tomorrow Social Studies: regions (chapter 1/Lesson 2) and VA map test tomorrow Spanish: bring photo of family/friends AND study vocab. worksheet/due tomorrow NOTES: As you can see, school notes is up and running today. Yesterday it was not, so that is why the students have to write down their homework. Red test folders went home yesterday. Wed. folders went home yesterday. 10-6-09 Happy Birthday, Jayden! Vocab.: workbook page 27 English: 1. BOOK page 412 (putting it together) do in notebook/due tomorrow 2. Chapter 15 test Thursday Spelling: 1. workbook page 34 and top of 35 2. Unit 5 test THURSDAY! Math: 1. workbook page 19 ALSO estimate #4 and 5 2. Chapter 3 test Friday Science: 1. quiz tomorrow C17-C23 2. put today's weather information on chart Social studies: regions (chapter 1/Lesson 2) and VA map quiz Friday 10-2-09 English: workbook page 108 Math: workbook page 17 ALSO estimate #1, 5, and 8 Science: read pages C17-C23/answer questions on page 23 iin notebook/due Mon. Social studies: test on regions (Ch. 1/Lesson 2) and VA map 10-9 Religion: bring a rosary from home if you would like. If not, we have plenty in the classroom Spanish: workbook page 7: study words Music: worksheet due Thurs. 10-8 Have a great weekend-I have an inservice on Monday, so a sub will be here Monday. There will not be any school notes then. See everyone Tuesday- Mrs. Park 10-1-09 Spelling: unit 4 test tomorrow Math: workbook page 16: ALSO round and estimate #3, 4, 5 Science: read pages C17-C21/define precipitation and humidity in notebook/due tomorrow Social studies: read pages 28-31/answer questions 1 and 2 on page 31 in notebook/due tomorrow Spanish: new vocab. textbook page 11/workbook pages 5 and 6/due tomorrow Have a great afternooon-Mrs. Park 9-30-09 Reading: read Seal Journey in book Vocabulary: unit 2 test tomorrow English: workbook page 112 (direct quotations) Spelling; write spelling words in backwards ABC order in notebook/test Fri. unit 4 Math: practice page 14 (do whole sheet) science: cloud worksheet/due tomorrow social studies: read pages 28-29/answer question in notebook/due tomorrow Spanish: textbook page 11 (new vocab.) and workbook pages 5 and 6/due Fri. Reminder: Red test folder went home today AND Wed. folders. 9-29-09 Vocabulary: unit 2 test Thurs. English: workbook pages 105, 106, 107 DO ODD NUMBERED SENTENCES ONLY! Spelling: workbook pages 28 and top of 29 (most finished this in class)/test Unit 4 Fri. Math: workbook page 14 (Round and solve Estimation for odd numbered problems/just solve the regular problem for even numbered problems) Spanish: workbook page 1 (activity A)/workbook page 4/due tomorrow Music: theory worksheet #3/quiz tomorrow 9-28-09 Vocabulary: 1. write 4 sentences using 4 of your vocab. words in reading notebook 2. Unit 2 test Thurs. 10-1 English: workbook page 99 Spelling: workbook pages 26-27/test Friday unit 4 Math: workbook page 12 Science: quiz tomorrow on C12-C16 Social studies: read page 27/answer review question on page 28 in noteobok/due Tues. Spanish: workbook page 1 (activity A) and workbook page 4/due Wed. 9-30 Music:theory worksheet #3/quiz Wed. 9-30 REMINDER: Students NEED an art smock! Some of them still do not have one. They are to bring one in with their name on it. Have a great afternoon-Mrs. ParK 9-25-09 Vocabulary: workbook page 23 Math: worksheet (BOTH SIDES!)/study multiplication facts! Science: quiz Tuesday 9-29 on C12-C16 Social studies: read page 27/answer review question on page 28 in notebook/due Tuesday Religion: chapter 2 test Monday (green book) Spanish: workbook page 1 (activity A) and workbook page 4/due Wed. Music: theory worksheet #3/study for quiz Wed. Have a great weekend! Mrs. Park 9-24-09 English: chapter 9 test tomorrow Vocabulary: workbook page 22 Spelling: unit 3 test tomorrow Science: quiz Tuesday 9-29 C12-C16 Social studies: read page 27/answer review question on page 27 in notebook/due tomorrow Religion: chapter 2 (green book) test Monday 9-28 Spanish: workbook page 1 (part A)/workbook page 4/due Wed. 9-30 *Remember tomorrow is 11:30 dismissal! Have a great afternoon! Mrs. Park 9-23-09 English: finish comic strip if not done/Test Chapter 9 Friday Spelling: in cursive write 6 sentences (unit 3)/Test Friday Math: test tomorrow on Chapter 2/lesson 5 AND Chapter 1/Lessons 2,3,5 Social studies: read pages 24-26/answer review question on page 26 in notebook/due tomorrow Spanish: workbook page 1 activity A/workbook page 4 Think it/due Wed. 9-30 Have a great afternnon-stay cool! Mrs. Park 9-22-09 English: worksheet AND Chapter 9 test Friday Spelling: ABC order of unit 3 words in notebook AND test Friday Math: worksheet AND test Thursday on Chapter 2/Lesson 5 and Chapter 1/Lessons 2,3,and 5 Science: read pages C12-C16/answer questions on page C16 in notebook/due tomorrow Science lab: worksheet due tomorrow 9-21-09 Happy Birthday, Ramses :) Vocab: workbook page 21 English: workbook page 2 and only part A of page 4 spelling: workbook pages 20 and 21/unit 3 test Friday Math: worksheet/Test Thursday: Chapter 2/Lesson 5 and Ch. 1/Lessons 2, 3, and 5 Science: read pages C12-C13 ONLY!/find range, mode, and median of 2 sets of numbers in notebook Social studies: quiz tomorrow on Chapter 1/Lesson 1 (pages 18-23 and VA map!) Reminder: smock for Art was to be here today! If your child still doesn't have one in the classroom, please send it in ASAP. (name in it!) 9-18-09 Vocabulary: workbook page 20 English: if your picture and sentences were not done today in class, finish them over the weekend. Math: practice page 10 (rounding) Science Lab: worksheet due Wed. 9/23 Social Studies: quiz on pages 18-23 and VA map in green folder on Tues. 9/22 Religion: chapter 1 test Monday (brown book) Have a great weekend! See you Monday-Mrs. Park 9-17-09 English: workbook page 10/also diagram sentence 3 in section A Spelling: unit 2 test tomorrow Math: workbook page 10 Science: quiz tomorrow on pages C8-C11 Science Lab: worksheet due Wed. 9-23 Social studies: quiz Tuesday pages 18-23 AND VA map in green folder Religion: chapter 1 (brown book) Monday 9-21 Spanish: workbook page 3/due tomorrow 9-16-09 English: workbook page 9 Spelling: ABC order of words in notebook (most finished this in class)/unit 2 test Fri. Science: quiz Friday C8-C11 Science Lab: worksheet/due Wed. 9/23 Social Studies: 1. workbook page 8 due tomorrow 2. quiz on pages 18-23 Tuesday 9/22 Religion: chapter 1 test (Brown book) Monday 9/21 Spanish: workbook page 3 due Friday I sent the red test folders home today. The Wed. folders also went home. 9-15-09 English: workbook page 115-116 Vocabulary: unit 1 test tomorrow Math: test tomorrow on Chapter 1/Lessons 2,3, and 5 Science: read pages C8-C11/answer questions on page C11 in notebook/due Wed. Social Studies : workbook pages 6-7/due tomorrow Spanish: write spanish name on 4 slips of paper/workbook page 2/Due WED. It was great to see many of you last night at Back to School Night. I will send home the test folders tomorrow, hopefully. I will let you know via school notes. 9-14-09 English: workbook page 11 (they had time to finish in class) Vocabulary: test Unit 1 Wed. Spelling: workbook pages 14-15 (they had time to finish in class) Math: 1. book page 20 in notebook/do ONLY # 7, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18, and 20 2. Test Wed. on chapter 1/lessons 2, 3, and 5 Science: read pages C8-C11. answer questions on page C11 in notebook. Due WED. Social studies: read pages 18-19. answer questions #1-3 in notebook from page 21/due Tuesday Spanish: write spanish name on 4 slips of paper/workbookpage 2/Due WED. Hope to see everyone at Back to School Night tonight! Mrs. Park 9-11-09 English: bring a picture from the newspaper or magazine/due Monday Math: workbook page 3 due Monday/Test Wed. on Chapter 1/Lessons 2,3, and 5 only Science: worksheet due Monday Social studies: read pages 18-19/answer questions # 1-3 in notebook from page 21/due Tuesday Religion: chapter 1 test Monday Spanish: write spanish name on 4slips of paper/workbook page 2/due Wed. Enjoy your weekend-See you Monday. Mrs. Park :) 9-10-09 English: book page 233/do exercise 5 in notebook Spelling: unit 1 test tomorrow Math: do practice page 2 science: worksheet/due Monday 9-14 Religion: chapter 1 test Monday 9-14 Spanish-make cover for spanish notebook/pick spanish name: Due tomorrow 9-9-09 Reading: test Thursday on Misty English: workbook page 1 Spelling: workbook page 10 and top of page 11/test Friday Unit 1 Math: workbook page 5 Science: worksheet Due MONDAY 9/14 Spanish: make cover for spanish notebook and pick spanish name/due Fri. Wed. folders went home today. Have a great afternoon-Mrs. Park 9-8-09 Reading: test on Misty Thursday Vocab. write 4 more sentences in notebook spelling: workbook pages 8 and 9/Unit 1 test Friday Math: homework book page 2 *ALL HOMEWORK IS DUE THE NEXT DAY UNLESS SPECIFIED DIFFERENTLY* School notes was down on Friday before I left for the weekend, so I could not post anything for the students. However, they did earn 1 extra credit for trying to look at the web-site for the work! :) 9-3-09 Vocabulary: workbook page 15 Math: 1. problems in notebook 2. dry erase markers and clean old sock Social studies: map of bedroom due tomorrow 9-2-09 Vocabulary: workbook page 14 Math: 1. worksheet 2. remember clean old sock and dry erase markers! Social studies: map of bedroom/due Friday 9-4 9-1-09 Welcome to schoolnotes! The homework and announcements will be posted on schoolnotes everyday unless there is a problem with the server. Math: 1. do math problems in notebook 2. cover math book, if not already done 3. bring in CLEAN OLD sock and dry erase markers!!! Social studies: cover book Spanish: cover book All books must be covered by Friday. Book socks can be used: the 4th grade books all use the big size except for English. Paper covers are also acceptable. CONTACT PAPER IS NOT. Thanks for your attention to this item. Remember all reading projects, reading logs, and math packets are due by Friday!

of Rohan's Passing Share This Obituary Message from the Family Thank you for your support during this difficult time. Please enhance this tribute to Rohan by adding your memories and photos. Arrangements made by El Camino Memorial - Sorrento Valley and El Camino Memorial Park 5600 Carroll Canyon Rd. San Diego, CA 92121 View Map - Get Directions→ Profile of El Camino Memorial - Sorrento Valley and El Camino Memorial Park→ Tel. (800) 352-2646 [email protected] Receive Obituary Notifications by Email Memories & CandlesPrevious “My mother still lives in penrith and i have memories of what a wonderful family Rohan had,those crazy sisters! i'm sure your life is filled with...Read More » ” 1 of 109 | Posted by: robyn watkins (whitla) “Dear Julia Jay Cameron Noha We send you our deepest sympathy for the loss of your adorable husband & father.We attended your wedding at the Log...Read More » ” 2 of 109 | Posted by: Dr John & Mrs Ann Parer “To Rohan's dearest family, I was so blessed to be able to attend Rohan's memorial mass here at St Nicholas of Myra Parish in Penrith, NSW and help...Read More » ” 3 of 109 | Posted by: Natasha Vella - Sydney “To Rohan's Family, I was truly saddened and shocked to hear of Rohan's passing. I have such wonderful memories of our childhood from kindly to...Read More » ” 4 of 109 | Posted by: Mick Wiggins - Brisbane “To all Rohan's family I send my deepest condolences. I went to school with Rohan from Kindergarten (how vividly I remember that Kindergarten class...Read More » ” 5 of 109 | Posted by: Lisa Stockwell (Edmunds) - Sydney “Dear Julia, Jay, Cameron and Noah, Our sincerest condolences to you all. We have known Julia and Rohan for over 20 years and together they lit...Read More » ” 6 of 109 | Posted by: Peta de Bruyn - Glenmore Park “I went to school with Rohan from kindergarten through to the HSC. We played footy together as youngsters, in which he displayed his whole hearted...Read More » ” 7 of 109 | Posted by: Chris Micallef - Cranebrook “Rohan always the life of every party , a life taken to soon. My condolances to all Rohan's family. Tracey xx ” 8 of 109 | Posted by: Tracey Rushby (Thomson) “Dear Julia and family and Mrs Mullins and family, We are so deeply sorry to hear of Rohans passing. Our prayers and thoughts are with you all. Rohan...Read More » ” 9 of 109 | Posted by: Donna D'mello - Richmond - friend “Those we love don't go away, They walk beside us every day, Unseen, unheard, but always near, Still loved, still missed and very dear. ” 10 of 109 | Posted by: Alison Hannah - Friend “You can shed tears that he is gone, Or you can smile because he lived, You can close your eyes and pray that he will come back, Or you can open...Read More » ” 11 of 109 | Posted by: Ang Hinchen Abingdon, Oxfordshire “Julia and Family, Mrs Mullins and all the Mullins Siblings, I pray you are all able to draw from Rohan's inspirational story so much strength as...Read More » ” 12 of 109 | Posted by: Dave Castor - Penrith, Australia “My deepest sympathy goes out to the Mullins family, My memories of Rohan and your family are all great ones. ” 13 of 109 | Posted by: Grant Ambrose - Narrabri, NSW “Rohan was the best colleague, manager and friend we never had. It was a great experience to have him at ResMed Paris! He was the most optimistic...Read More » ” 14 of 109 | Posted by: Valérie Gatto - Paris, France “What a beautiful man who touched the lives of everyone he met - kind, thoughtful, easy going, bright, witty, caring, patient, the list goes on.... I...Read More » ” 15 of 109 | Posted by: Stephanie Allen Sydney Australia “Dear Julia & family, Joan and all the Mullins siblings, Rohan was truly one of the good guys....he was always sensible & dependable and never...Read More » ” 16 of 109 | Posted by: Meredith McDonald - Sydney “What I remember most fondly about Rohan is his smile and his amazing voice. One of my favourite childhood memories is hearing Rohan and Julia singing...Read More » ” 17 of 109 | Posted by: Samantha - Melbourne “Dear Jules, Jay, Cam & Noah.. Rohan was such a beautiful man..So welcoming and friendly...Whenever I saw him he always had a smile... " A...Read More » ” 18 of 109 | Posted by: Robyn Townsley - Julia's cousin “As Rohan and his family were arriving to work in France, for several years, I was flying out, on my way, to join the team in Sydney. You might as...Read More » ” 19 of 109 | Posted by: Philippe Chalvignac - Resmed “Dear Julia, Jay, Cameron and Noah, On behalf of my family please know that we are thinking of you all. Rohan impacted on all of us over the many...Read More » ” 20 of 109 | Posted by: Tim Hardy - Penrith - Friend “Stop your fuss for just a moment, let the phone ring out, Look up from your keyboard, let sweet silence come about; Switch off the radio, calm the...Read More » ” 21 of 109 | Posted by: Anon - School Friend “We are saddened by the passing of such an inspirational person. Our memories will always be of a talented, warm and dear friend. Our thoughts are...Read More » ” 22 of 109 | Posted by: Grant and Maxine Ambrose Narrabri “To the Mullins family, Rohy's young smiley face is one of the many endearing memories we have of us all growing up together in Stafford St. Rohan's...Read More » ” 23 of 109 | Posted by: Paul Keavy - Penrith “Jules and family I was very saddened to hear of Rohan's passing away, I have read all the tributes and his smile and beauty has touched everyone...Read More » ” 24 of 109 | Posted by: Kelli Capuano - Sydney “.Jackie Adwin Aleven Time Square can't shine as bright as you, we swear its true..the Jansen family ♥ December 29, 2011 at 6:53pm · LikeUnlike. ” 25 of 109 | Posted by: Adwin Jansen, Jackie Aleven and Andrea, Diana and Natasha Jansen “When you grow up with 23 first cousins (and that's just the Mullins side of my family) there are too many of you when you grow up and move around the...Read More » ” 26 of 109 | Posted by: Monique Mullins - London - Cousin “I will always remember when I was hired in ResMed Paris: When the person in charge of me introduced me to Rohan, our boss, I had such a warm welcome...Read More » ” 27 of 109 | Posted by: Stéphanie HIEN - Versailles “Rohan, tu avais une Aura incroyable, je n' oublierai jamais ton sourire, ta générosité, ta joie de vivre et ton humanité. Je pense aujourd'hui...Read More » ” 28 of 109 | Posted by: CELINE LERAY - Melun - FRANCE “Dear Julia, Jay, Cameron and Noah and all your family, We are so sorry to hear about Rohan our thoughts and prayers are with you always. Keep...Read More » ” 29 of 109 | Posted by: Irene George & Edith Lampe Sydney “Rohan - you had an incredible capacity for love. You were bright, adventurous, loyal, fun-loving. A really genuine, nice person. It was always a...Read More » ” 30 of 109 | Posted by: Debbie Mullins - Sister “Dear Julia and the Mullens family We, the Loughland family have lovely, fond memories of all our times having known the Mullens'. Through school,...Read More » ” 31 of 109 | Posted by: Pauline Loughland - South Penrith “To Julia and her sons, we met in Paris and eventhough we did not spend much time together our memories of Rohan and you are filled with...Read More » ” 32 of 109 | Posted by: Gudrun Brand - Frankfurt - friend “I hadn't seen Rohan for a number of years but have kept up to date thru Julia's FB. Rohan was an amazing man and I know he will be sorely missed by...Read More » ” 33 of 109 | Posted by: Thomas Gregg - Windermere Park “Julia, what a gift to have met and married such a wonderful & inspirational man and to have 3 beautiful sons together. What a beautiful tribute to...Read More » ” 34 of 109 | Posted by: Paula Meyer - Holland, MI “Dear Mullins Family; My condolences to you and your family. Having the opportunity of meeting and speaking to Rohan was a pleasure. In the short...Read More » ” 35 of 109 | Posted by: Maryann Colon “Julia, I remember meeting Rohan for the first time on one of our walking tours in Paris. You two were adorable together. You could tell you were...Read More » ” 36 of 109 | Posted by: Susan Reinhart - Ross, CA “To Barb & Cliff, to Julia, Jay, Cameron, Noah, reading all the tributes pouring in is a testament to Rohan's contribution to everyone he was in...Read More » ” 37 of 109 | Posted by: Debbie Dobbs - St Clair. Sydney “I too was deeply saddened by Rohan's passing. I will always remember the conversation I had with him back in 2005 on his last day at ResMed, North...Read More » ” 38 of 109 | Posted by: Margaret Bosworth “Boys, it's not for me to tell you the man your father was. I just wanted to let you know that, Jay- your musical talent and the way you conduct...Read More » ” 39 of 109 | Posted by: Na - Cranebrook - Family “Que ton repos soir eternel. Collègue passioné et enthousiate. Toujours le sourire et un mot gentil. Musicien passioné reconnu. Tu restera...Read More » ” 40 of 109 | Posted by: Mickael PINSON - Moissy cramayel “Rohan has been a fantastic colleague. He was such a nice person with a lot of empathy. It was always a pleasure to work or spend sometimes out of...Read More » ” 41 of 109 | Posted by: eric cazergue - Lyon - colleague “I was devastated to hear of Rohan’s passing and my wife (Lisa) and I would like to send our sincere condolences to his wife Julia and boys Jay,...Read More » ” 42 of 109 | Posted by: Graham Cutcliffe - Friend “I only met Rohan once when I was over at jays house a year or so ago. He was one of the most friendly people that I have met. He was very welcoming...Read More » ” 43 of 109 | Posted by: Patrick Fitzgerald “Dear Julia and family, My love and thoughts are with you all, I was so touched and moved watching the service today, it was a truly beautiful...Read More » ” 45 of 109 | Posted by: Deborah Martin - Penrith “Here is a photo from 1989, it was my 21st birthday party, and it was held at the house which everyone fondly called the Loveshack. Rohan was our...Read More » ” 47 of 109 | Posted by: Leisa Olson - East Hills - Friend “To Julia and the boys I send you all my love and support even though we are miles apart I will always remember Rohan to be a happy gentle person may...Read More » ” 48 of 109 | Posted by: lucilla luchi - penrith - friend “To rohans family I went to school with rohan at, st nicks, st doms and then McCarthy. Admittedly I had not been in contact with him since our...Read More » ” 49 of 109 | Posted by: Andrew mazzotta - Brisbane “I feel truly privileged to have been close to Rohan as a friend but also as a musician, collaborator and co-worker. His fun, energy, enthusiasm and...Read More » ” 50 of 109 | Posted by: Glenn Leishman Sydney, Australia “My endearing memory of Rohan, is that of a young man who was pursuing a better life for Julia and his impending family. I remember the guy who...Read More » ” 51 of 109 | Posted by: Gavin Tomlins - Friend “We were lucky enough to enjoy 3 wonderful years in Paris with our fellow Aussies. Rohan you will be greatly missed but we keep with us amazing life...Read More » ” 52 of 109 | Posted by: Tracey, Jason, Laura and Nicholas Grant “It is with great sadness I have heard of Rohan's passing. I have not seen him for many years so my heart is filled with joy to see what a happy and...Read More » ” 54 of 109 | Posted by: Janelle Gursel - Henley,NSW “It was a pleasure for me to work with Rohan and I will always keep in mind Rohans amazing energy, happiness and the joy of living. My thoughts are...Read More » ” 55 of 109 | Posted by: Gabriele Helms “Rohan was a great leader and manager.He always had this love of life, the good humor, this openness, this accessibility that made him the best person...Read More » ” 56 of 109 | Posted by: Cyril Fromentin - Paris “We will keep in mind the joy of living and the energy of Rohan. He was such an amazing man. Our prayers and thougths are for your entire family. ” 57 of 109 | Posted by: Marie-Claire Dubreux - France “We shall always remember those times together in Fontainebleau. Life was so good, great friends, many parties, dinners, music & weekends away...Read More » ” 58 of 109 | Posted by: Ian Woodroofe - Singapore “To dearest Julia and your Handsome sons, I have been praying for you all for quite some time now. I now pray that the love and friendship you...Read More » ” 59 of 109 | Posted by: Liz Foster - Wallacia/Emu Plains “Words cannot express how shocked and saddened we all were to hear of Rohan's passing. All the memories we have of Rohan will be kept close to our...Read More » ” 60 of 109 | Posted by: Bernadette, Chris, Luke, Ryan & Blake McDonnell “To Rohan's Family, I had the chance to meet Rohan in 2006 when he recruited me at ResMed Paris. I can easily say that Rohan has always been an...Read More » ” 61 of 109 | Posted by: Olivier Tessier - Moissy-Cramayel “I would always guard of Rohan the image of a human and generous man, he was for Resmed Paris an excellent director, his help was very precious for...Read More » ” 62 of 109 | Posted by: Denis BOURRIEZ “Dear Julia, Jay, Cameron and Noah I had the pleasure of first meeting Rohan way back during our Uni days, about 25 years ago. Over this time Rohan...Read More » ” 63 of 109 | Posted by: David & Justine Bray & Family “My beautiful uncle Ro Ro xxx I was so happy to be your flower girl I was so happy when you were my sponsor Every Christmas you made me smile...Read More » ” 64 of 109 | Posted by: Tahlia McDonald - Penrith “In all the time I knew Rohan I never once saw him without a smile on his face. He was the perfect host, and great guitar player, tremendous singer...Read More » ” 65 of 109 | Posted by: Davy Hannah - Friend “My thoughts are with you all at this very hard time. Sending my love Julia, Jay, Cam, Noah & all of Rohans family & friends. I did not have the...Read More » ” 66 of 109 | Posted by: Belinda Le Breton “Dearest Julia, Jay, Cameron & Noah, Our hearts go out to you all at this incredibly sad and difficult time. Rohan was an absolutely amazing man,...Read More » ” 67 of 109 | Posted by: Stephanie Jeffress “Rohan, Julia, Cameron, Jay and Noah, every day we see the house where you were so happy in and wish we could bring back the times when Noah and the...Read More » ” 68 of 109 | Posted by: stephanie schroeder - Saint-Cloud “Julia, words cannot describe how sad we are with Rohan's passing. It was a privilege to have been part of his life and we share many memories of you...Read More » ” 69 of 109 | Posted by: Robyn SchmittI - Fontainebleau “Rohan meant a lot to ResMed Paris. It was always a real pleasure to work with him. He was a realy true good man. May he rest in Peace and God help...Read More » ” 70 of 109 | Posted by: Laurence P “Dearest Julia & family, Damian & I were so sad to hear of Rohan's illness & death. We remember him as a lovely young man who sang so beautifully...Read More » ” 71 of 109 | Posted by: Sue Whiticker - FamIly Friend “Rohan was a great man who came from a great family, i am truly saddened at his passing & my thoughts and prayers go out to his family & friends. I...Read More » ” 72 of 109 | Posted by: Shane Northam - penrith “To Rohan's Family, I was so saddened to hear of Rohan's passing I shall always remember the Rohan's positive attitude. I send you my...Read More » ” 73 of 109 | Posted by: Vanessa GELY “Words cannot describe who Rohan was. And so words also cannot describe the loss you must be feeling now." (Indescribable) You are in our thoughts and...Read More » ” 74 of 109 | Posted by: Anthony & Bronwen Smith “My sincerest condolences to Julia, Jay, Cameron, Noah and the whole Mullins family. I have many happy memories of my time spent with Rohan. Playing...Read More » ” 75 of 109 | Posted by: Jonathan Dinning - Orchard Hills “A brilliant smile A loving wife and partner 3 talented, spirited boys that share his brilliant smile Family and friends in abundance Musical...Read More » ” 76 of 109 | Posted by: Kristin Walton - Chester Springs, PA “My favorite memory of Rohan is the night we went and saw KT Tunstall at the House of Blues!! We rocked out all night and then climbed into his shiny,...Read More » ” 77 of 109 | Posted by: Kristen Tvedt and family - CA “Dearest Julia, Noah, Cameron and Jay, Rohan Mullins was an amazing husband and father. His love for you all was SO evident in his being, in his...Read More » ” 78 of 109 | Posted by: Maria Baker - Rancho Santa Fe, CA “Rohan took some great photos of him and me as we caught a train to my wedding. I’d love to post them here but Roh left the camera in the taxi en...Read More » ” 79 of 109 | Posted by: Stephen Murphya - Orange NSW, Aus “Where do I begin with the fabulous times we were priveleged to share with wonderful Rohan. Mad parties in Paris, wine tasting in Bordeaux, kayaking...Read More » ” 80 of 109 | Posted by: Liz Cawley - UK - Friend “I will never forget Rohan, and I miss him now so much..... Always at home in his company, feeling younger with him and Julia around me As a...Read More » ” 81 of 109 | Posted by: didier carmier - Vulaines “It still seems like yesterday that I first met Rohan, it was at ASP kids soccer in Paris. Here was an Aussie showing brazilian kids how to play...Read More » ” 82 of 109 | Posted by: Rick Cawley - UK - Mate “Rohan, you loved your week long exploration of music at SXSW, Austin, in 2011. The Burning Club will raise a glass to you when we get there in March...Read More » ” 83 of 109 | Posted by: Rohan's Music Friends in The Burning Club “Julia, we are so sorry for your loss. You and Rohan were always so welcoming and kind to Patrick and all of Jay’s friends. You opened your home...Read More » ” 84 of 109 | Posted by: Margaret Phela “My Deepest Sympathy to Rohan's family and close friends. I enjoyed working with Rohan and appreciated especially his appreciative and caring nature. ” 85 of 109 | Posted by: Valérie Pateau “I am so grateful to have met Rohan and Julia while they were in France. They are an impressive, admirable team and built such a beautiful family and...Read More » ” 86 of 109 | Posted by: Hannah Judson - friend “I am so sad to hear of Rohan's passing. He was a fine gentleman and his contributions to medical care will live on. May our Dear Lord rest his soul...Read More » ” 87 of 109 | Posted by: Bob Thalken - Corydon, IN “I would keep an excellent memory of Rohan. Pierre. ” 88 of 109 | Posted by: Pierre BOUDANT - PARIS - FRANCE “To Rohan's Family, I was extremely saddened to learn of the passing of Rohan. I send you my most sincere condolecences, deepest thoughts and...Read More » ” 89 of 109 | Posted by: WOZNIAK Boris - Paris “We are both profoundly saddened by Rohan's passing. The world seems a little darker that such a joyful and talented soul has gone too soon. It was a...Read More » ” 90 of 109 | Posted by: Graham Purches Sydney, Australia “Dear Julia and sons, I am deeply sad, but will keep in mind for the end of my life the image of a fantastic positive guy always smiling. ” 91 of 109 | Posted by: Amar Guessaimi - Paris france “Dear Julia and boys. Rohan was a great man, colleague, friend and musician partner. On stage he lit up the room with his smile ,talent and obvious...Read More » ” 92 of 109 | Posted by: Paul Eisen - Sydney Australia “My loving uncle Rohan (Roh Roh), The Man who when minding me in the school holidays at the ‘love shack’ let me eat MacDonald’s twice in one...Read More » ” 93 of 109 | Posted by: Dearne - Cranebrook, Australia “Dear Julia, Jay, Cameron You guys were blessed to have such a wonderful man to share your lives with...Please know you are all in our prayers and...Read More » ” 94 of 109 | Posted by: Tania and Mat Daley - friend “My dearest Ro: There could never have been a more perfect soul mate for my lovely Julia than you. In all the years since Julia was 18 I have never...Read More » ” 95 of 109 | Posted by: Barbara Mitchell - Emu Plains “This week the world lost one of the most amazing men I have ever met. Those that were blessed to share your life will always be better people for...Read More » ” 96 of 109 | Posted by: Amanda Hampshire - Colyton “Dear Julia, Jay, Cameron, Noah, Mrs Mullins and all the Family, I was so saddened to hear of Rohan's passing. Although I haven't seen Rohan for a...Read More » ” 97 of 109 | Posted by: Barry Mulquin - Gold Coast “Rohan Mullins was a true friend who has made my life richer for having known him; he was an inspiring manager who defined the bounds of professional...Read More » ” 98 of 109 | Posted by: Sumathy Ramesh “Rohan’s favourite movie was “Dead Poets’ Society”. He identified with the philosophy of ‘Carpe Diem’, of seizing the day, and with the...Read More » ” 99 of 109 | Posted by: Cliff Mitchell - father-in-law “I didn't know Rohan, but Alison spoke so fondly of him, I wish I had known him. The video tribute I saw reinforced what a wonderful man he was and...Read More » ” 100 of 109 | Posted by: Nancy Barth - Fresno, CA “Julia, Jay, Cameron & Noah, we're so sorry for your loss. I went to school with Brendan, and grew to become friends with all the Mullins kids. I...Read More » ” 101 of 109 | Posted by: Mick Doohan & Family (Dianne, Steph, Kim & Jamie) “She sees your smile when she goes to sleep He hears your voice when he wakes We understand that you're here no more It's so very hard to take ...Read More » ” 102 of 109 | Posted by: Felicity BEGGS - Cranebrook “Julia and Rohan were some of the first people I met when I moved to France. We loved them immediately. They both had a way of bringing people...Read More » ” 103 of 109 | Posted by: Madeline Oglesby - Katy, TX “Hello Debbie. I wanted to send my condolences for your loss. My thoughts are with your family. Sincerely John. ” 104 of 109 | Posted by: John Curran - Boston, MA “Knew you for such a short time, but you made a lifetime impression. ” 105 of 109 | Posted by: Cheryl Daigle - Paincourtville, LA “Rohan Mullins, The Man with that smile, For no one else have I ever sang "500 Miles", No party complete without Rohan and his guitar, And Julia...Read More » ” 106 of 109 | Posted by: Carol Greenwood - St Cloud “Please accept my heartfelt sympathy on the passing of a truly lovely man. May his beautiful wife and children, his brothers, sisters and mother,...Read More » ” 107 of 109 | Posted by: Amanda McKenna - Friend “My sincere condolences to all Rohan's family especially his mother and his siblings. I was his kindergarten teacher at St Nicholas of Myra Primary...Read More » ” 108 of 109 | Posted by: Avril Llewellyn Sydney, Australia “Dear Family, If a simple message can help you a little... Rohan was so much appreciated in ResMed Paris. Thinking of you and children, Sylvia P. ” 109 of 109 | Posted by: Sylvia Pruchon - Narbonne, France Rohan was born on October 21, 1968 and passed away on Thursday, December 29, 2011. Rohan was born in Australia, lived in France and was a resident of San Diego, California at the time of his passing.

This file has been automatically converted from the original documentation for easy use inside the ARB help system. Differences compared with the original documentation are unintentionally caused by the conversion process. In doubt please refer to the original documentation! fastDNAml 1.2 Gary J. Olsen, Department of Microbiology University of Illinois, Urbana, IL [email protected] Ross Overbeek, Mathematics and Computer Science Argonne National Laboratory, Argonne, IL [email protected] Citing fastDNAml If you publish work using fastDNAml, please cite the following publications: What is. DNAML includes the following notice:. Why is fastDNAml faster? Some recomputation of values has been eliminated (Joe Felsenstein has done much of this in version 3.4 DNAML). The optimization of branch lengths has been accelerated by changing from an EM method to Newton's method (Joe Felsenstein has done much of this in version 3.4 DNAML). The strategy for simultaneously optimizing all of the branches on the tree has been modified to spend less time getting an individual branch right before improving the other branches. Other new features in fastDNAml fastDNAml includes a checkpoint feature to regularly save its progress toward finding a large tree. If the program is interrupted, a minor change to the input file and adding the R (restart) option permits the work to be resumed from the last checkpoint. The new R {restart) option can also be used for more rapid addition of new sequences to a previously computed tree (when new sequences are added to the alignment, it is best if the relative alignment of the previous sequences is not altered). The G (global) option has been generalized to permit crossing any number of branches during tree rearrangements. In addition, it is possible to modify the extent of rearrangement explored during the sequential addition phase of tree building. The G U (global and user tree) option combination instructs the program to find the best of the user trees, and then look for rearrangements that are better still. The number of available rate categories has been raised from 9 to 35. The weighting mask accepts values from 0 through 35. The new B (bootstrap) option causes generation of a bootstrap sample, drawn from the input data. The program includes "P4" code for distributing the problem over multiple processors (either within one machine, or across multiple machines). Do DNAML and fastDNAml give the same answer? Generally yes, though there are some reservations: One or the other might find a better tree due to minor changes in the ways trees are searched. When sequence addition is replicated with different values of the jumble random number seed, they have about the same probability of finding the best tree, but any given seed might give different trees. The likelihoods and branch lengths sometimes differ very slightly due to different criteria for stopping the optimization process. Little has been done to check the confidence limits on branch lengths. There seem to be some instances in which they disagree, and we think that fastDNAml is correct. However, do not take the "significantly greater than zero" too seriously. If you are concerned, you can supply a tree inferred by fastDNAml as a user tree to DNAML and let it (1) reoptimize branch lengths, (2) tell you the confidence limits and (3) tell you the tree likelihood. Changes and new features in version 1.2 The program can now calculate the likelihood of extremely large user trees. The largest tree we have tested had 3200 taxa. Generally, you will run out of computer memory before you excede an intrinsic limitation. (With this, it is possible to compare trees found by whatever your favorite methods are under the likelihood criterion.) The computation has been changed to permit ease of implimenting new models of evolution and analysis of amino acid sequences (though these have not yet been done). This has slowed down the program 5-10%. Changes and new features in version 1.1 The quickadd option is now the default. This has the ugly effect of reversing the meaning of putting a Q on the option line. (Sorry, about this, and the next note, but in the long run it it is the better behavior.) Use of empirical base frequencies is now the default. This reverses the meaning of the F option, making the default behavior more like that of PHYLIP. The tree output file is now generated by default and should be more compatible with the files written and read by the PHILIP programs. In particular, the comments with information about the tree, its likelihood, etc. are removed, and there are no quotation marks around names unless there are unusual characters within the name. (There are two things to be very careful about in names: there is no completely consistent way to handle both blanks and underscores in names without quotation marks, and when a name is spaced in from the margin in the input file, there are leading blank spaces in the name, which can be very hard to make compatible with some programs.) Maintaining a list of the several best trees, not just the (single) best. In particular, when evaluating user-supplied trees, the program tries to same information about all of the trees and provides a Hasegawa and Kashino type test of whether each tree is better than optimum. Note, the current version of the program prints the report in the order of tree likelihood, NOT in the order the trees are supplied to the program. The best way (at present) to figure out which tree is which is to look at the likelihoods. This is the same test used in PHILIP, but I had removed access in version 1.0 of fastDNAml due to differences in how the programs handle multiple trees. The difference is that fastDNAml can maintain nearly optimal trees all the time, so you can get a list of the N best trees found by using the new K option (below). The program should accept rooted trees (strictly bifurcating), as well as unrooted trees (with a trifurcation at the deepest level). This is not fully tested, but it seems to work. Features in the works Test subtree exchanges (as well as moving a single subtree) in the search for better trees. Allowing the program to optimize any user-defined subset of branches when user lengths are supplied. Input and Options Basics The input to fastDNAml is similar to that used by DNAML (and the other PHYLIP programs). The user should consult the PHYLIP documentation for a basic description of the format. This version of fastDNAml expects to get its input from stdin (standard input) and writes its output to stdout (standard output). (There are compile time options to modify this, for those who care to get into such things.) On a UNIX or DOS system, it is a simple matter to redirect input from a file and output to a file: fastDNAml < infile > outfile On a VMS system it is only slightly more difficult. Immediately before running the program, one includes two commands that define the input and output files: $ Define/User Sys$Input infile $ Define/User Sys$Output outfile $ Run fastDNAml The default input data format is Interleaved (see I option). To help get data from a GenBank or similar format, the interleaved option can be switched off with the I option. Numbers in the sequence data (i.e., sequence position numbers) will be ignored, so they need not be stripped out. (Note that the program also writes a file called checkpoint.PID. See the R option below for more description.) 1 -- Print Data By default, fastDNAml does not echo the sequence data to the output file. Option 1 reverses this. 3 -- Do Not Print Tree By default, fastDNAml prints the final tree to the output file. Option 3 reverses this. 4 -- Do Not Write Tree to File (***** Changed in version 1.1 *****) By default, fastDNAml versions 1.1 and 1.2 write a machine readable (Newick format) copy of the final tree to an output file. Option 4 reverses this. The tree output file will be called treefile.PID (where PID is the process ID under which fastDNAml is running). Look at the Y option below for more information on alternative tree formats. B -- Bootstrap Generates a bootstrap sample of the input data. Requires auxiliary data line of the form: B random_number_seed Example: 5 114 B B 137 Sequence1 ACACGGTGTCGTATCATGCTGCAGGATGCTAGACTGCGTCANATGTTCGTACTAACTGTG ... If the W option is used, only positions that have nonzero weights are used in computing the bootstrap sample. Warning: For a given random number seed, the sample will always be the same. PHYLIP DNAML does not include a bootstrap option. (Use the SEQBOOT program.) C -- Categories Requires auxiliary data of the form: C number_of_categories list_of_category_rates The maximum number of categories is 35. This line is followed by a list of the rates for each site: Categories list_of_categories [per site, one or more lines] Category "numbers" are ordered: 1, 2, 3, ..., 9, A, B, ..., Y, Z. Category zero (undefined rate) is permitted at sites with a zero in a user-supplied weighting mask. 5 114 C C 12 0.0625 0.125 0.25 0.5 1 2 4 8 16 32 64 128 ... PHYLIP DNAML is limited to categories 1 through 9. Also, in PHYLIP version 3.3, the categories data came after all the other auxiliary data, but before the user-supplied base frequencies and sequence data. If you make the C line your last auxiliary data line, the programs will behave the same. F -- Empirical Frequencies (***** Changed in version 1.1 *****) By default (starting with version 1.1), the program uses base frequencies derived from the sequence data (called emperical base frequencies). Therefore the input file should normally NOT include a base frequencies line preceding the data. If you want to include your own base freqency data, it is now necessary to use the F option, and add a line to the input file that supplies the frequency data: Instructs the program to use user-supllied base frequencies derived from the sequence data. Therefore the input file should not include a base frequencies line IMMEDIATELY preceding the data: 5 114 F 0.25 0.30 0.20 0.25 Sequence1 ACACGGTGTCGTATCATGCTGCAGGATGCTAGACTGCGTCANATGTTCGTACTAACTGTG ... There is an alternative format: the frequencies can be anywhere in the list of auxilliary data lines if they are preceded by an F in the first column: 5 114 F C W F 0.25 0.30 0.20 0.25 C ... ... W ... Sequence1 ACACGGTGTCGTATCATGCTGCAGGATGCTAGACTGCGTCANATGTTCGTACTAACTGTG ... G -- Global If the global option is specified, there may also be an [optional] auxiliary data line of form: G N1 or G N1 N2 N1 is the number of branches to cross in rearrangements of the completed tree. The value of N2 is the number of branches to cross in testing rearrangements during the sequential addition phase of tree inference. N1 = 1: local rearrangement (default without G option) 1 < N1 < numsp-3: regional rearrangements (crossing N1 branches) N1>= numsp-3: global rearrangements (default with G option) N2 <= N1 the default N2 is 1, local rearrangements. The G option can also be used to force branch swapping on user trees, that is, a combination of G and U options. If the auxiliary line is supplied, it cannot be the last line of auxiliary data. (It may be necessary to add the T option with an auxiliary data line of T 2.0 if no other auxiliary data are used.) Examples: Do local rearrangements after each addition, and global after last addition: 5 114 G Sequence1 ACACGGTGTCGTATCATGCTGCAGGATGCTAGACTGCGTCANATGTTCGTACTAACTGTG ... Do local rearrangements after each addition, and regional (crossing 4 branches) after last addition: 5 114 G T G 4 T 2.0 Sequence1 ACACGGTGTCGTATCATGCTGCAGGATGCTAGACTGCGTCANATGTTCGTACTAACTGTG ... Do no rearrangements after each addition, and local after last addition: 5 114 G T G 1 0 T 2.0 Sequence1 ACACGGTGTCGTATCATGCTGCAGGATGCTAGACTGCGTCANATGTTCGTACTAACTGTG ... PHYLIP DNAML does not support the auxiliary data line or branch swapping on a user tree. I -- Not Interleaved By default, fastDNAml 1.2 expects data lines for the various sequences in an interleaved format (as did PHYLIP 3.3 DNAML). The I option reverses the expected format (to non-interleaved data, in which all the data lines for one sequence before the next sequence begins). This is particularly useful for editing a GenBank or equivalent format into a valid input file (note that numbers within the sequence data are ignored, so it is not necessary to remove them). If all the data for each sequence are on one line, then the interleaved and non-interleaved formats are degenerate. (This is the way David Swofford's PAUP program writes PHYLIP format output files.) The drawback is that many programs do not handle long lines of text. This includes the vi and EDT text editors, many electronic mail programs, and some versions of FTP for VAX/VMS systems. PHYLIP 3.3 DNAML expects interleaved data, and does not include an I option to alter this. PHYLIP 3.4 DNAML accepts an I option, but the default format is reversed. J -- Jumble Randomize the sequence addition order. Requires an auxiliary input line of the form: J random_number_seed 5 114 J J 137 Sequence1 ACACGGTGTCGTATCATGCTGCAGGATGCTAGACTGCGTCANATGTTCGTACTAACTGTG ... Note that fastDNAml explores a very small number of alternative tree topologies relative to a typical parsimony program. There is a very real chance that the search procedure will not find the tree topology with the highest likelihood. Altering the order of taxon addition and comparing the trees found is a fairly efficient method for testing convergence. Typically, it would be nice to find the same best tree at least twice (if not three times), as opposed to simply performing some fixed number of jumbles and hoping that at least one of them will be the optimum. K -- Keep multiple best trees (***** New in version 1.1 *****) The program can keep a list of the best trees that it has found. When the program is done, it prints a list of these, from best to worst, and print a Hasegawa and Kishino type test as to which trees are significantly worse than the best tree found. When evaluating user-supplied trees, the program automatically keeps all trees. In other situations, the program keeps only the best tree that it has found. The K option, and associate auxilliary data line, can be used to define an alternative number: Example, to keep the 15 best trees found: 5 114 K K 15 Sequence1 ACACGGTGTCGTATCATGCTGCAGGATGCTAGACTGCGTCANATGTTCGTACTAACTGTG ... Example, to keep only the one best tree of possibly numerous user-supplied trees: 5 114 K U K 1 Sequence1 ACACGGTGTCGTATCATGCTGCAGGATGCTAGACTGCGTCANATGTTCGTACTAACTGTG ... L -- User Lengths Causes user trees to be read with branch lengths (and it is an error to omit any of them). Without the L option, branch lengths in user trees are not required, and are ignored if present. 5 114 U L Sequence1 ACACGGTGTCGTATCATGCTGCAGGATGCTAGACTGCGTCANATGTTCGTACTAACTGTG ... (The U is for user tree and the L for user lengths) O -- Outgroup Use the specified sequence number for the outgroup. Requires an auxiliary data line of the form: O outgroup_number 5 114 O O 5 Sequence1 ACACGGTGTCGTATCATGCTGCAGGATGCTAGACTGCGTCANATGTTCGTACTAACTGTG ... This option only affects the way the tree is drawn (and written to the treefile). Q -- Quickadd (***** Changed in version 1.1 *****) The quickadd feature greatly decreases the time in initially placing a new sequence in the growing tree (but does not change the time required to subsequently test rearrangements). The overall time savings seems to be about 30%, based on a number of test cases. Its downside, if any, is unknown. This is now (starting in version 1.1) the default program behavior. If the analysis is run with a global option of "G 0 0", so that no rearrangements are permitted, the tree is build very approximately, but very quickly. This may be of greatest interest if the question is, "Where does this one new sequence fit into this known tree? The known tree is provided with the restart option (below). PHYLIP DNAML does not include anything comparable to the quickadd feature. The quickadd feature can be turned OFF by adding a Q to the first line of the input file. R -- Restart The R option causes the program to read a user-supplied tree with less than the full number of taxa as the starting point for sequential addition of the remaining taxa. Thus, the sequence data must be followed by a valid (Newick format) tree. (The phylip_tree/2, prolog fact format, is now also supported.) The restart option can also be used to increase the range of the search for alternative (better) trees. For example, you can take a tree produced with only "local" tree rearrangements, and increase the rearrangements to "regional" or "global" by combining the appropriate global option with the restart option. If the starting tree was written by fastDNAml, then the extent of rearrangements is saved with the tree, and will be used as the starting point for the additional search. If the tree was already globally optimized, then no additional searching will be performed. To support the R option, after each taxon is added to the growing tree, and after each round of rearrangements, the program appends a checkpoint tree to a file called checkpoint.PID, where PID is the process number of the running fastDNAml program. The last line of this file needs to be appended to the input file when the R option is used. (This should not be confused with the U (user tree) option, which expects a number followed by that number of trees. No additional taxa are added to user trees.) The UNIX utility tail can be used to remove the last tree from the checkpoint file, and the utility cat can be used to append it to the input. For example, the following script can be used to add a starting tree and the R option to a data file, and restart fastDNAml: #! /bin/sh if test $# -ne 1 then echo "Usage: restart checkpoint_file" exit fi read first_line # first line of data file echo "$first_line R" # add restart option cat - # rest of data file tail -1 $1 # append last tree in checkpoint file If this shell script is in the file called restart, then one might use the command: restart checkpoint.21312 < infile | fastDNAml > new_outfile ^script ^checkpoint tree ^data ^dnaml program ^output_file If this is too opaque, don't worry about it, or talk with your local unix wizard. In the mean time, this and other useful shell scripts are provided with the program. PHYLIP DNAML does not write checkpoint trees and does not have a restart option. T -- Transition/transversion ratio Use a user-specified ratio of transition to transversion type substitutions. Without the T option, a value of 2.0 is used. Requires an auxiliary data line of the form: T ratio 5 114 T T 1.0 Sequence1 ACACGGTGTCGTATCATGCTGCAGGATGCTAGACTGCGTCANATGTTCGTACTAACTGTG ... (Note that a T option with a value of 2.0 does nothing, but it can provide a last auxiliary data line following optional auxiliary data. See the examples for G and Y.) U -- User Tree(s) Read an input line with the number of user-specified trees, followed by the specified number of trees. These data immediately follow the sequence data. The trees must be in Newick format, and terminated with a semicolon. (The program also accepts a pseudo_newick format, which is a valid prolog fact.) The tree reader in this program is more powerful than that in PHYLIP 3.3. In particular, material enclosed in square brackets, [ like this ], is ignored as comments; taxa names can be wrapped in single quotation marks to support the inclusion of characters that would otherwise end the name (i.e., '(', ')', ':', ';', '[', ']', ',' and ' '); names of internal nodes are properly ignored; and exponential notation (such as 1.0E-6) for branch lengths is supported. W -- Weights Read user-specified column weighting information. This option requires auxiliary data of the form: Weights list_of_weight_values [per site, one or more lines] 5 114 W Weights 111111111111001100000100011111100000000000000110000110000000 111101111111111111111111011100000111001011100000000011 Sequence1 ACACGGTGTCGTATCATGCTGCAGGATGCTAGACTGCGTCANATGTTCGTACTAACTGTG ... It is necessary that the weight values not start before the 11'th character in the line, or some of them will be lost. Weights from 0 to 35 are indicated by the series: 0, 1, 2, 3, ..., 9, A, B, ..., Y, Z. PHYLIP DNAML does not support user weights with values other than 1 or 0. This limit has been removed in fastDNAml to permit the use of user weights as a mechanism for representing a bootstrap sample (that is, only the auxiliary data lines change, not the body of the data file). Y -- Write Tree (***** Changed in version 1.1 *****) fastDNAml writes the final tree to an output file called treefile.PID. By default the tree is in PHYLIP format. The Y option allows turning this off, or changing the format of the tree. The Y option by itself toggles the saving of the tree, on or off. If there is also an auxiliary input line of the form: Y number where number can be 1, 2, or 3, the number selects one of three tree output formats: 1 Newick 2 Prolog 3 PHYLIP (default) Newick is the tree standard used by PAUP, MacClade, and serveral other programs. The tree includes a comment about the analysis that the tree is based upon. fastDNAml uses this comment when it reads a tree. In addition, the names of the taxa are enclosed in quotation marks. Both of these features of the file make it incompatible with the PHYLIP package. PHYLIP is the subset of the Newick tree standard used by programs in the PHYLIP package. There are no comments and no quotations marks around names. (If a name includes unusual characters, such as a comma, fastDNAml will put it in quotation marks, making it a valid tree, but it cannot be read by the PHYLIP programs.) The Prolog format very similar to the Newick format, but it is a valid prolog fact that permits direct loading into some sequence analysis tools that we use. The structure of the term is: pseudo_newick([Comment], (Subtree1, Subtree2, Subtree3): Length). where each subtree is either (Subtree1,Subtree2): Length Label: Length The comment is a valid prolog term when && is defined as a unary operator. Label is a prolog atom (it is a valid Newick label, with single quotation marks). Length is a number. Because the Y auxiliary input line is optional, it cannot be the last auxiliary data line. Examples. To turn of the saving of the tree, 5 114 Y Sequence1 ACACGGTGTCGTATCATGCTGCAGGATGCTAGACTGCGTCANATGTTCGTACTAACTGTG ... or, to change the output to the full Newick format, 5 114 Y T Y 1 T 2.0 Sequence1 ACACGGTGTCGTATCATGCTGCAGGATGCTAGACTGCGTCANATGTTCGTACTAACTGTG ... PHYLIP DNAML does not append the PID (process ID) to the tree file name and does not support the full Newick standard or the prolog format output. ============================================================================= Acknowledgements: The origin and development of fastDNAml as a program to extend the use of maximum likelihood phylogenetic inference to larger sets of DNA sequences was encouraged by Carl Woese. Through the development and evolution of the program, Joseph Felsenstein has been extremely helpful and encouraging. Numerous users have made suggestions and/or reported program bugs: Gary Nunn Tom Schmidt Ross Overbeek Hideo Matsuda Mitchell Sogin Brenden Rielly Data file with empirical frequencies (generic analysis) (notice that blank lines are permitted in the data): 5 114 Data file with empirical frequencies and a random addition order: 5 114 J file with empirical frequencies and a bootstrap resampling: 5 114 B weighting mask and rate categories: 5 114 W C Weights 111111111111001100000100011111100000000000000110000110000000 111101111111111111111111011100000111001011100000000011 C 10 0.0625 0.125 0.25 0.5 1 2 4 8 16 32 three user-specified tree branching orders: 5 114 3 (Sequence1,(Sequence2,Sequence3),(Sequence4,Sequence5)); (Sequence2,(Sequence1,Sequence3),(Sequence4,Sequence5)); (Sequence3,(Sequence1,Sequence2),(Sequence4,Sequence5)); Data with transition/transversion ratio and base frequencies to simulate Jukes & Cantor model: 5 114 T F T 0.501 F 0.25 0.25 0.25 0.25 Non-interleaved data: 5 114 I Sequence1 ACACGGTGTCGTATCATGCTGCAGGATGCTAGACTGCGTCANATGTTCGTACTAACTGTG AGCTCGATGATCGGTGACGTAGACTCAGGGGCCATGCCGCGAGTTTGCGATGCG Sequence2 ACGCGGTGTCGTGTCATGCTACATTATGCTAGACTGCGTCGGATGCTCGTATTGACTGCG AGCACGGTGATCAATGACGTAGNCTCAGGRTCCACGCCGTGACTTTGTGATNCG Sequence3 ACGCGGTGCCGTGTNATGCTGCATTATGCTCGACTGCGRCGGATGCTAGTATTGACTGCG AGCACGATGACCGATGACGTAGACTGAGGGTCCGTGCCGCGACTTTGTGATGCG Sequence4 ACGCGCTGCCGTGTCATCCTACACGATGCYAGACAGCGTCAGCTGCTAGTACTGGCTGAG ACCTCGGTGATTGATGACGTAGACTGCGGGTCCATGCCGCGATTTTGCGRTGCG Sequence5 ACGCGCTGTCGTGTCATACTGCAGGATGCTAGACTGCGTCAGCTGCTAGTACTGGCTGAG ACCTCGATGCTCGATGACGTAGACTGCGGGTCCATGCCGTGATTTTGCGATGCG Non-interleaved data by editing a GenBank format (make sure that the names are padded to at least ten characters with blanks): 5 114 I Sequence1 1 ACACGGTGTC GTATCATGCT GCAGGATGCT AGACTGCGTC ANATGTTCGT ACTAACTGTG 61 AGCTCGATGA TCGGTGACGT AGACTCAGGG GCCATGCCGC GAGTTTGCGA TGCG Sequence2 1 ACGCGGTGTC GTGTCATGCT ACATTATGCT AGACTGCGTC GGATGCTCGT ATTGACTGCG 61 AGCACGGTGA TCAATGACGT AGNCTCAGGR TCCACGCCGT GACTTTGTGA TNCG Sequence3 1 ACGCGGTGCC GTGTNATGCT GCATTATGCT CGACTGCGRC GGATGCTAGT ATTGACTGCG 61 AGCACGATGA CCGATGACGT AGACTGAGGG TCCGTGCCGC GACTTTGTGA TGCG Sequence4 1 ACGCGCTGCC GTGTCATCCT ACACGATGCY AGACAGCGTC AGCTGCTAGT ACTGGCTGAG 61 ACCTCGGTGA TTGATGACGT AGACTGCGGG TCCATGCCGC GATTTTGCGR TGCG Sequence5 1 ACGCGCTGTC GTGTCATACT GCAGGATGCT AGACTGCGTC AGCTGCTAGT ACTGGCTGAG 61 ACCTCGATGC TCGATGACGT AGACTGCGGG TCCATGCCGT GATTTTGCGA TGCG Data analysis restarted from a four-taxon tree (which happens to be wrong, but it will be corrected by local rearrangements after the tree is read): 5 114 (Sequence4:0.1,Sequence2:0.1,(Sequence1:0.1,Sequence5:0.1):0.1):0.0; Data analysis restarted from a four-taxon tree (which is wrong, and which will not be corrected after the tree is read due to the suppression of all rearrangements by the global 0 0 option): 5 114 R G T G 0 0 T 2.0

FAT TO FAST (A young athlete’s story) ‘As told to’ J. William Turner Smashwords Edition (Original version copyright 2009 by (James) J. William Turner) It is not often that one is privileged to make a significant difference in the life of another person, especially a young person. As a university professor and clinical psychologist who once treated substance abusers, I know I had helped many kids in my professional capacity. This always gave my ego and self-esteem a boost. But it was as a private person in retirement, dealing with an obese teenager, that I was to find my greatest satisfaction. Dennis Cooke PhD Chapter 1 - Preliminaries Chapter 2 - Settling In (Days 1 - 2) Chapter 3 - Hard Work and Fun (Days 3 - 8) Chapter 4 - Good Progress (Days 15 - 63) Chapter 5 - In Training (Days 64 - 110) Chapter 6 - Going Home (Days 111 - 160+)) Blades IV (Aftermath) Jake’s Magical Easter Adventure My name is Dr. Dennis Cooke (PhD), and this is the story of how I started an obese teenage boy on the road to fulfilling his sporting dream. As a clinical psychologist, I had decided to retire early from university lecturing at the age of fifty. Six months earlier, my wife, Mona, died suddenly after a massive stroke. I then sold my home in Melbourne, and moved two thousand kilometres north to Urangan, a suburb in the coastal city of Hervey Bay. Located three hours’ drive north of Brisbane, ‘The Bay’ offered me the new relaxing lifestyle and climate I had been seeking. It also offered me a chance to take up lawn bowls and do volunteer work with local youth, free of the pressures involved as a professional. Prior to this, for more than twenty years, I had specialised in the area of youth addictions. Supported by grants from governments and benevolent trusts, I was able to establish a youth-only rehabilitation unit in Melbourne Here, my staff and I primarily treated teenagers abusing narcotics, cannabis, hallucinogens, pills and alcohol. We also helped young people with gambling problems and Internet/video games obsessions, but to a much lesser extent. During my four years as its head, before returning to university lecturing, this facility served several hundred teenagers plagued by the aforementioned addictions. It therefore came as a surprise to me, at the time I left, when I realised that we had not admitted a single food addict. And so it happened, that one of my last acts as Chief was to mention this fact, somewhat flippantly I must confess, to my diminutive replacement, Dr Ross Boyd (PhD). Referred to as Dr. Ross by all who knew him, he had been my student whilst completing his research thesis during my previous days as a lecturer. After assessing the work he presented to me at that time, I had no hesitation in recommending he be awarded his doctorate. I also had no hesitation in having him offered a fellowship in my department at the university, and later recruiting him to my team at the rehabilitation unit when it was eventually opened to residents. And, finally, I had no hesitation in recommending him to the rehab unit’s Board of Directors as the right person to fill my shoes as psychologist-in-charge when I returned to lecturing. Fortunately, they had the very good sense to agree. But Ross had not only been a former student, and very capable member of my staff, he had also been a good friend. So it was for this reason that we decided to maintain very close contact while I was a lecturer, and later, a retiree, despite the distance. And it was because of this contact, and my respect for the man, that I came to be involved with the teenage boy in question, a boy who had a rare natural talent or gift. It was just not the talent that anybody who knew him back then would ever have expected. Told with the total support, cooperation, and some direct written input from all the major players, ‘Fat to Fast’ is the story of the challenging journey of self-discovery, awareness, and emotional healing on which I escorted and supervised this fine young man. CHAPTER 1 – PRELIMINARIES THE INITIAL REQUEST FROM DR. ROSS BOYD For the first two years of my retirement, Ross and I regularly e-mailed each other. I would occasionally tell him what a great lifestyle I had up north, unsuccessfully attempting to make him envious. In return, he would occasionally seek out my opinion from time to time in reference to particularly challenging cases. That is until early one April, when I sent an e-mail advising him that I was flying down for ten days. I was due to arrive on Thursday, 9th April, to spend Easter with my son, Darren, and his family, whom I always missed a lot. Included in this e-mail was an off-the-cuff comment about treating food addictions. The response that I received from Ross made me think of the old saying, “Me and my big mouth.” In his replying e-mail, my former student and subordinate drew my attention to a new case of food addiction. It was one in which he had a very personal interest. The sufferer was Kendal Kirby, a morbidly obese fourteen-year-old boy who lived with his divorced mother in the house next to Ross. Ross knew both Kendal and his mother, Gina, very well. And based on his knowledge of this single-parent family, he had decided the boy really needed to be in a controlled environment for several months away from his home and mother. He required the sort of role-modelling and close supervision that Gina was unable to provide at the time. Although having finalised her acrimonious divorce three years earlier, she had not coped well. Basically, she placed her own emotional needs ahead of her son’s at the time, and continued to do so as he became a teenager. This, in turn, adversely affected Kendal’s emotional state. And matters only became worse when his father committed suicide. The result was that an already-slightly-chubby primary school boy, having been nurtured in a dysfunctional home, eventually became a grossly overweight high school student, who really needed to get away. But the rehab unit was not the place. So Ross wanted me to meet them. Why? Because he felt that Kendal’s needs would best be served if he came to live with me in Hervey Bay, adding, “While you’re dealing with Kendal, I can work on Gina. And having a kid around will keep you feeling young, anyway.” Ross also pointed out that it would be good timing as Victorian schools started their holidays at the end of term one on Friday, 3rd April. Kendal would be able to fly back to Hervey Bay with me on the twentieth, if there was still a seat available on each of the two flights involved. Living in a three-bedroom two-storey home, typical in that part of Queensland, I actually had the room to accommodate him. But the idea of entering into a private boarding arrangement with a mother and son I didn’t know was way outside of my comfort zone. My immediate response was to e-mail him back with that regular catchphrase quote from U.S. TV psychologist, ‘Dr Phil’, “Are you kidding me?” But he wasn’t. He was absolutely serious, and had complete trust. So we exchanged a flurry of more e-mails. Finally, I agreed to be introduced to Kendal and Gina on the Tuesday evening after Easter at their home. This would mean I could have dinner with the Boyd family first. This consisted of Ross, his wife Sally, ten-year-old daughter, Angela, and twelve-year-old son, Wesley, so named after a brave classmate who saved Ross’s life in a blizzard during a school hike twenty-seven years earlier. Tuesday, 14 April - I arrived at the Boyd residence just as the sun was setting. Having visited often in the past, I always enjoyed spending an evening there. They were a really good family that would never have existed if Ross had died during that blizzard in the 1980's. I was also quite amused on this visit by the fact that despite having just finished primary school, young Wesley was now almost as tall as his dad. Another half dozen centimetres would do it. And although petit, Angela was certainly growing well for her age. I expected them both to be taller than Ross eventually. Before dinner, Ross took me into his study for a couple of beers and a brief chat about my visit to the people next door. He told me that both of them had initially been ‘freaked out’ by the idea of Kendal living in my house for up to five months. In reply, I said, “Well mate, that’s hardly surprising.” But Ross can be very persuasive, despite his short stature. After turning on some of his boyish charm and telling them I had a Queensland state government-issued child contact authority, a ‘blue-card’, their initially-negative reaction had softened to one of ‘maybe’, especially Kendal. His reason, however, was that “winter in Melbourne sucked compared to Queensland”. No argument from me on that score, but Ross felt there was a lot more to it than that. I guessed it would all come down to whether or not, firstly, they liked me, and, secondly, my own impression of Kendal. His mother, I wasn’t so concerned about. She would be Ross’s problem if I agreed to take the boy. Sally Boyd was an excellent cook. She had prepared a meal that was both my favourite and Ross’s, vegetarian lasagne. After downing two large helpings, I was ready to meet the neighbours. And that’s exactly what I did at seven thirty when Ross led me onto their front veranda and rang the bell. I felt a strange tenseness as I waited. MY FIRST MEETING WITH GINA KIRBY The door was opened by Gina Kirby. She presented as a very slender woman of average height with an air of relaxed confidence and no apparent personal issues with weight. But I suspected this air of confidence hid anxiety. What that anxiety was about, if it existed, I was interested to find out, although I had been well-briefed by Ross. First of all, though, due to limited time, I wanted to begin analysing the whole situation as we entered the house. Gina already had the electric kettle on in anticipation of our arrival, and escorted us into the lounge room. She told us that Kendal was in his bedroom, “probably hiding-out”. The last remark was made with a faint note of sarcasm. While our refreshments were being prepared, I quickly looked around the room. It was neat and tidy, just as Mona had maintained our own home when she was alive. There were landscape pictures on the walls, and old black-and-white or sepia portraits on the mantle. What was immediately noticeable by its absence, though, was a lack of recent family-type colour photographs. By contrast, they were all over the place in Ross’s lounge, and mine. Our hostess soon had us with a cup of coffee in one hand and a chocolate biscuit in the other. We were ready to get down to business and Ross opened the discussion. He asked her what she really wanted for her son. The gist of her reply was for him to meet a high standard, lose weight and make her proud. In response to this statement, Ross asked Gina if Kendal had ever been caught stealing by anybody. He hadn’t. So he asked if he had ever been found to be cheating in class exams. Again, he hadn't. Does he roam the streets at night, vandalise property, bully smaller kids in the schoolyard, smoke, get drunk or constantly tell lies? Her answer was no to the first five behaviours, and not sure to the last. Tactfully, I hadn’t jumped in first to ask those questions as we had only just met. And I knew exactly what Ross’s next question was going to be. “Well, Gina,” he said quietly, “if the only negative thing he maybe does is tell lies, why aren’t you proud of him?” Gina hesitated for a second, shrugged and replied that she was proud of him, and what she had meant to say was for Kendal to make her more proud of him. Here was one problem already. She admitted to not having said that to her son for many years. There was an apparent lack of communication. Another problem evident from everything she was saying, without realising it, was that she wanted the weight loss to be more for her benefit than for his. That is, she wanted him to meet a standard appropriate for her as an adult and to boost her pride and self-esteem. Having been verbally and emotionally abused by her late, ex-husband, regaining that pride and self-esteem had become paramount in her personal agenda. Unfortunately, she was trying to do it through Kendal. But Ross had already told me that the boy had his own emotional and physical problems. Thus, he was totally incapable of meeting his mother’s current expectations and frustration had set in, for both parties. Gina had become more and more controlling as time went by, trying to feel good in any given moment, without consideration for Kendal’s sensitivities. One of her tools to do this was food. She felt gratified seeing him happily tuck into as much as he could eat. Meanwhile, he derived pleasure from the very act of consuming the inappropriate food. This particular aspect of their life together was out of control. In terms of nutrition, they had become each other’s worst enemy. But at least Gina had always insisted Kendal have an annual physical exam by their family doctor. The result each time was that he was in very good health apart from the obesity. As far as breaking the poor nutrition cycle was concerned, teaching a young person like Kendal what to do correctly, if I could get him motivated, would be far easier than teaching his mother. I suspected that Gina had fallen into a very deep rut from which Ross would have to drag her, but it wasn't going to be easy. She would also require a lot of motivation, preferably as quickly as possible. So I was hoping for early successes with Kendal, if I agreed to take him. For now, I wanted to know if his mother had been thinking of ways to help him. I asked, “Gina, what strategy or plan do you have for Kendal to improve his current situation?” She said to get him on some kind of diet, just as long as he could lose weight. She had totally missed the fact that she was enabling his weight gain by bringing all the wrong foods into their home in the first place. But this would be for Ross to deal with. My concern was the boy. The time had come to be direct. “Gina, how do you really feel about Kendal coming to live with me, a stranger, two thousand kilometres away?” She looked down and pulled at her fingers. “Like I am failing. Like I’m a bad mum.” I reached over, gently touched her wrist and said, “The fact you can say that tells me you’re not failing and you're not a bad mum. You’re just in a bind that’s way over your head, that’s all.” Gina looked up and smiled slightly. It was obvious she appreciated my words of support, and I asked her if she had any questions about life in Hervey Bay if her son came to live with me. That was when I discovered that Ross had already told her a fair bit about me, and my background. Her only questions concerned the sort of accommodation I would be providing, and what high school Kendal would attend. The matter of accommodation was easily dealt with. He would have his own bedroom at the other end of the house from mine. But as far as his education went, I intended home-schooling him for the two terms minimum that he would be with me. Gina asked the obvious, “Why home-schooling?” My answer was, quite simply, that for a boy with Kendal’s problems, neither of the two state high schools in Hervey Bay would be ‘appropriate environments’. Both schools would expose him to the twin risks of access to the wrong foods and extreme teasing. Either of these risks by themselves could be damaging. Together, they would be just plain toxic, setting the boy up for failure. Kendal needed a controlled, structured environment that was both nutritionally and emotionally safe. The only place that could be guaranteed was in my own home under my constant supervision, especially in the early stages. In the corner of my eye, I saw Ross nodding slightly in private agreement. Directly before me, Gina was clearly nodding. She had quickly got the message about environmental factors. This was good, as I would have hated to tell her what a poor environment she had provided for so long. So instead, I asked to meet Kendal for a private chat while she talked some more with Ross. It was important for me to get the boy’s opinion on the present situation and of himself. When I had finished the last of my coffee and biscuit, Gina led me from the lounge, down a short passage to a closed door, knocked quietly and entered a couple of seconds later. Once we were inside, I was introduced as Dr. Cooke. Gina’s Thoughts The whole idea of Kendal living away from home for at least five months was daunting, to say the least. Apart from a couple of short school camps and an occasional sleepover at a friend’s house back in primary school, he had never been away from home, and certainly not two thousand kilometres away for many months. But seeing him so overweight was starting to make me feel quite guilty. Part of me knew that something drastic had to be done, but another part had personal issues and emotions that were taking priority over Kendal’s needs. After my bitter divorce from Kendal’s father, and his subsequent suicide, I really had become wrapped up in myself and in my search for gratification. In doing so, I had probably raised an over-indulged ‘mummy’s boy’. Having chatted informally with Ross, I was only just starting to realise all of the problems that were a part of my life and Kendal’s. Significantly, the first of these problems was for me to find the strength to deal with them. It was difficult enough coping by myself with the depressed, under-achieving teenager that I was starting to feel I had created. Emotionally, there wasn’t enough inner-reserve left for me. Being a bit sarcastic at times, for example, my comment about Kendal “hiding-out in his room” when Ross and Dennis arrived was an inappropriate way to deal with things. I needed time out and to learn to trust, myself as well as others. However, just the thought of not only a separation from my son, but him living with someone who was not ‘family’ was very difficult, no matter how highly Ross recommended Dennis. At least having met him now, I can say Dennis seemed to be a respectful, understanding and sensitive professional, with a desire to help my son and me indirectly. And it was, in fact, Ross who told me that “being a parent often means putting the emotional needs of our children ahead of our own,” or words to that effect. There was no doubt that Kendal’s emotional needs were becoming magnified. But he didn’t want to communicate his feelings to me, and I didn’t know how to ask. My son was becoming a stranger. I knew nothing of his dreams or aspirations. I sensed that Dennis might be Kendal’s last hope before he went off the rails when his teenage hormones really started to kick-in. I wondered nervously what impression my son would make on him. MY FIRST MEETING WITH KENDAL KIRBY Kendal was horizontal on his bed, and didn’t stand until prompted by his mother. I offered my hand. With an avoidance of eye contact, the handshake was returned somewhat weakly, and Gina vacated the room. Now that we were alone together, I could begin assessing my potential young houseguest. Physically, he was borderline morbidly obese. Standing about one hundred and sixty centimetres in height, he looked to weigh approximately seventy kilograms. If my estimate was correct, I decided, then he was at least twenty-five kilograms or fifty percent above his ideal weight. But for now, the exact figures were of little concern. It was an initial appraisal of his overall psychology and thinking that was my priority. So we sat on his bed, where I engaged Kendal in some small talk, initially one-sided with me doing a lot of the talking. I confirmed that I was in his room to discuss his coming to Queensland, and told him a few things about myself, and my home. I then invited him to put to me any questions he wished. His first one concerned what he would be doing in Queensland during his time with me. In reply, I told him he would be shown new ways to manage his eating, thinking and relationships, which would be explained to him, if he agreed to come. I made it clear that he would, in fact, be living a totally different, quite strict, rigid and structured lifestyle based on healthy choices regarding environment, exercise and food intake. He would have to meet very high standards, which may take a while to get used to, and would make no allowances for any type of food addiction. I half-hoped that he might form in his mind the impression of something similar to the TV reality show, ‘The Biggest Loser’. I made it sound worse than it was ever likely to be, because I did not want to give a false expectation of some kind of sub-tropical holiday camp. I asked him how he felt about that. Kendal shrugged silently, and then asked his second question. This was almost identical to his mother’s second question earlier about high school. My answer that he would be home-schooled caused his eyes to light up, and the corners of his mouth to twitch into a fleeting smile ever so slightly. Here was a big clue as to one significant social/emotional issue. But now was not the time or place to address it. I filed it away in my memory to be dealt with later back in Queensland. For the time being, I wanted to go down a different path. I said to him, “Complete this statement...If you really knew me, you’d know...” Kendal shifted his gaze to one side for a few seconds as he pondered the statement and whether or not to respond. Then he replied, “If you really knew me, you’d know I’m lost.” The answer was simple and articulate, and delivered in a manner showing an underlying intelligence that was clearly above average. I asked him in what way was he lost. In reply, Kendal pointed to a large dictionary on a shelf above his desk with some other books. He said, “You’ll find the answer in there.” He was clearly suggesting I look for myself, so I obliged and reached for the dictionary. After the word ‘lost’ there were several definitions. Five of them sounded relevant. They were: Having gone astray. Bewildered; perplexed. Wasted. To no longer belong. To have no effect on. As I read these aloud to him, I sensed that he was nodding to himself. He must have already looked at the definitions previously. So I asked him to elaborate. He told me that “To have no effect on” came from a feeling of not being listened to. “To no longer belong” was, just as I suspected, social isolation within his peer group. “Wasted” was how he saw his life. “Having gone astray” referred to the fear of never being able do what he really wanted. And “Bewildered; perplexed” stemmed purely from not knowing how to remedy his situation. He was without doubt clearly looking for answers. I said to him, “Kendal, tell me what it is you want to do, but fear you will never be able to do?” The boy suddenly looked downcast. He pointed to a poster on the ceiling above his bed. On it was an image of the 2008 Beijing Olympics Australian silver and bronze medallist, Jared Tallent. “Jared got his medals for long-distance walking,” Kendal muttered, “but I want to run.” The fact that Kendal appeared to have a hero and a definite goal was encouraging. The main questions now were how desperately did he want to achieve it, and how much was he prepared to do to achieve it? But desire and commitment are two different things. Just how strong were his? Unfortunately, I would have to take him to Queensland to find the answers. But this then incurred the risk of Kendal not being able to find and sustain the motivation necessary for success, and what would be his premature return home. It would be a return that I know would cause him to feel much shame. In other words, I may be setting him up for a personal failure. Given the boy’s existing problems, such a failure would only serve to make his current unhealthy emotional situation even worse. But to do nothing, and leave him with his mother and current school situation, I felt, would see him gradually slide further down an emotional greasy pole. Who knows what would happen then? “Kendal,” I began, “do you see yourself being able to run the way you want to if you don’t come to Queensland?” Without hesitation, he shook his head firmly. So I continued, “Do you see yourself being able to run the way you want to if you do come to Queensland?” This time, he looked at me forlornly, shrugged and said, “I guess we won’t know till I get there.” It was a very good answer, leaving no doubt in my mind that, for whatever reasons, he wanted to come. But I had one final question that had to be put. “Kendal, if you come to Queensland, you and your mother may be apart for many months. What do you have to say about that” Trying to look serious, but with the faintest of smiles, he replied, “I reckon she'll manage.” That sealed the deal for me. This boy had both intelligence and a wry, smart-aleck sense of humour. I was suddenly feeling optimistic as I suggested we return to the lounge where his mother and Ross were talking. Kendal’s Thoughts When Dr. Ross first said I might go to Queensland for several months on a weight loss program I half-freaked. Like any teenager, my first instinct was to reject a change proposed by an adult. I’d often heard it said that most old people were set in their ways. Well, the same may be said of a lot of young guys my age at the time. This was especially true if one was lazy, unmotivated, or both, as in my case. Part of me knew that things had to change, but the question was how much of a change. So I measured the distance as-the-crow-flies from Melbourne to Hervey Bay on my wall map of Australia. It was nineteen hundred kilometres. The furthest I had ever travelled away from home alone before was less than a quarter of that on a school camp. I really would be on my own. But when I went to school the next day, the regular bouts of teasing about my size were added to with an insensitive comment by a teacher, who called me a hippo, and a physical assault by another student. I started to think of the possibility that school kids in a large coastal town like Hervey Bay wouldn’t be any better or worse than my current, big-city classmates. Perhaps Dr. Dennis might be able to tell me if I asked him. Not wishing to make it too obvious, I first wanted to know about what life would be like up there. And I guess I wasn’t too happy with a reply that made it sound almost like an army boot camp. My current routine at home of sleeping-in, eating what I liked, watching as much TV as I wanted and not doing anything to help out around the place would disappear. Instead, I would have to follow a strict, disciplined schedule of getting-up and going to bed, having regular exercise and activity, and consuming healthy foods and drinks. There would be a total ban on high fat, high sugar, low fibre junk. Food addiction or not, I was to be limited to an absolute maximum intake of fifteen hundred calories (six thousand three hundred kilojoules). Dr. Dennis did not explain what he actually meant by regular exercise and activity. I could only guess. And the term ‘food addiction’ had never before been said in front of me. It really seemed like I was to be on some sort of reality TV game show for fat kids. So in my opinion, I would gain nothing by going to Queensland. Then he told me I was to be home-schooled. That really got my attention, as I hated my high school so much. Being taught somewhere by myself away from any chance of taunts and insults would be heaven. Even my mother could be critical and sarcastic at times, as well as pushy. It was just Dr. Dennis’s own style of weight loss training that I was unsure of. How pushy was he going to be, as well as critical and sarcastic? I couldn't possibly have known. So I hoped for the best, and told myself it couldn’t be that bad. But my first challenge came quickly as he started to get inside my head. Without warning, Dr. Dennis said, “Complete this statement...If you really knew me, you’d know...” If he really knew me, what would he know? That was almost a scary question, which I had to think about. In the past, I’d heard people who didn’t understand something say, “I’m lost.” So I decided to make that my answer. I had no real idea what was happening in my life, but wanted to figure it out. At the same time, I didn’t want to make it too easy for him, and so pointed at my dictionary when he asked what I meant. And much to my surprise, he not only went and fetched it himself, but the definitions he read out actually made a lot of sense to me. I realised that I was lost. Then his final question also came without warning, “Tell me what it is you want to do, but fear you will never be able to do?” That went even deeper inside my head. I remembered back to a time before I was obese when I was just a bit chubby. I liked to run everywhere all the time, and could do it without getting tired. I even tried little athletics. But the only running events in my age group at the time were all sprints, in which I bombed-out. There was no endurance racing, and I quickly lost interest. So I decided that it wouldn’t hurt if I pointed at my overhead poster of Jared Tallent and told Dr. Dennis of my desire to run. But he still wasn’t satisfied, and drilled even deeper into my mind by asking about being able to fulfil my dream at home and in Hervey Bay. It was obvious to me, even at that age, nothing positive would happen if I did nothing. Going to Queensland, however? I felt a bit depressed this time when I couldn’t answer that question either, but really needed to. It would be worth heading north just to find the answer. I only hoped that he wouldn’t start asking me about when my dad was alive, Dad’s bad attitude towards me and his constant arguments with Mum, and the lousy family life I had. Fortunately, the last thing Dr. Dennis wanted to know was how I felt about leaving home and being away from my mother. I could have given him the truthful straight answer, that if it meant no regular school and seeing if I could run again, I really didn’t care. Instead, I was a bit of a smart-ass, and he tried to cover his smile. It was at that moment, that I decided I liked Dr. Dennis. All I wanted was for him to treat me right, unlike my parents. OUR AGREEMENT Kendal and I returned to the lounge. My decision to accept Kendal as a boarder in my home had actually surprised me. I had never imagined myself doing something like this. It was mainly a gut instinct about the boy, from the way he related to me, that was the primary reason, like a special factor. Gina and Ross stopped talking when we entered. I didn’t waste any time with more small talk. I told them of my willingness to have Kendal live at my house as an official boarder. This would be for the duration of his cooperation in whatever exercise and diet program I devised until he reached his goal weight. Of course, I would not be charging any fees for my professional services. My only expectation was that all of Kendal’s regular necessary costs would be covered, plus his air fares. I then suggested a reasonable weekly boarding amount, and Gina nodded her approval. I told them that as part of his board, Kendal would receive three regular meals per day and a light supper each evening, plus laundry, utilities, local transport and limited access to the Internet. I would also devise and implement an age-appropriate program of on-going exercise. But there would be no weekly allowance initially. Any unexpected personal needs would be paid for as required. I would also require he undergo a full medical check-up and blood testing by their family doctor, with a copy of the results coming to me. The only other item required was a separate Medicare Card for him to cover any medical costs. Gina agreed to apply for one immediately on Kendal’s behalf, and have it sent directly to my post office box in Urangan. What I didn’t mention at the time was the psychological counselling that I would be providing gratis. My return home on the Virgin Blue flight from Melbourne Airport to Hervey Bay, with a change of planes in Sydney, was on Monday, 20th April. I gave Gina my flight numbers and advised her either to try and book a flight that evening via the Internet or phone, or see her local travel agent in the morning. If there were no seats available on my aircraft, there were flights later in the week on Wednesday and Friday. There were also frequent flights daily with Qantas to Brisbane, followed by a couple of regional flights with Qantaslink to Hervey Bay. I added that both airlines accepted responsibility for older children as ‘Unaccompanied Minors’ (UMs). It therefore came as a surprise to me when I saw Gina’s great surprise, if not shock, at my suggestion that Kendal fly to Queensland as an UM. Her son was less than four years away from being a legal adult, and she was very worried about something as harmless as this. I knew from my own observations, kids much younger than Kendal flew as UMs everyday. Her reaction was an eye-opener. Ross and I exchanged quick glances. Did she perceive her son as having a level of capability and maturity well below his chronological age, thus lacking proper respect and esteem for him as a boy about to become a man? Or was she just over-protective and controlling? Finding answers to those two questions, I’m glad to say, was another issue for Ross to deal with in Kendal’s absence. And he’d have several months to do so. My focus now was entirely on Kendal and his needs, starting with the important matter of arranging the home-schooling. This would require parental consent. As Ross was much better acquainted with Gina than I was, and since it was his idea for Kendal to come up north in the first place, I hand-balled this item of business to him. With that, the time had come for me to leave. I said my ‘goodbyes’ to Gina and Kendal, and offered my hand to the boy. Again he returned the handshake. But this time, he looked me in the eye and his grip was much firmer. PREPARATION TO LEAVE MELBOURNE Wednesday, 15 April - My mobile phone rang mid-morning. It was Ross calling to advise me that Kendal had been unable to get seats on both of my flights back to Hervey Bay on the coming Monday, but had done so on the following Wednesday, 22nd April. Although Gina had still showed some reservations about Kendal travelling as an UM, Ross had persuaded her it would be okay. So with the travel arrangements taken care of, that now left Ross with only the home-schooling to be sorted. The main thing on my mind before departure was devising the best possible diet. Due to my late wife’s obsession with activities in the kitchen, I learned very early in our marriage how to prepare good meals. Mona had been an excellent teacher. My concern, therefore, was choosing the most appropriate ingredients, not what to do with them. Fortunately, the rehab unit I had established was served by a very competent consultant nutritionist, Michelle Wright, (formerly Michelle Sarah until her marriage in 2002). Michelle had been a part of the rehab unit since its early days, and was one of Ross’s old school friends. Also, she had been rescued in that same blizzard by the same classmate who’d saved Ross, and after whom Ross had named his son. So I contacted her immediately to say “G’day” and arrange a meeting. As luck would have it, she was going to be at the unit that afternoon, and had fifteen minutes to spare during her tea break. I met with Michelle at three o’clock, and picked her brain as intensely as I could during the short time available, taking written notes as I went. Basically, what she told me was, more-or-less, what I expected. Kendal had to avoid all processed junk foods totally, strictly limit his intake of other processed non-junk foods, and concentrate on fresh foods, primarily plant-sourced. To illustrate this, she roughly drew a food pyramid. At the narrow apex of the pyramid were sugars, fats and oils to be consumed in the very least amounts. Half way down the pyramid where it was wider, moderate consumption of low-fat dairy products, various lean meats, fish and eggs were okay. But it was foods at the very wide base of the pyramid, where Michelle had written fruit, vegetables, low-sugar cereals and wholemeal bread, that were to represent the bulk of Kendal’s calorie intake. The necessity for change was obvious, as his current food pyramid was very much upside down. The boy was in for a real shock. Apart from Michelle’s food pyramid and strong menu suggestions, another potential weapon in my arsenal was a thirteen-year-old boy named Donaldson Briggs. He was the youngest son of my neighbours, and the typical ‘kid next door’ who was called ‘Donny’ or ‘Duck’ by other children. He reminded me of Charlie Bucket, the main child character in the movie ‘Willy Wonka & the Chocolate Factory’. With both his grandfathers now deceased, I was almost looked upon as some kind of substitute grandpa by Donaldson, which was fine with me. Last year, he had even asked if he could call me Pop. I’m sure the boy would have walked barefoot on hot coals for me if I had asked him to. I had come to know him, his parents and two much older siblings well. Although standing about the same height as Kendal, in build, Donaldson was about as opposite as it gets. His physique was quite lean, but without being unhealthily skinny. His parents, Eddie and Maggie, were ‘greenies’ and vegetarian, committed to healthy eating, and had raised their kids that way. But with Donaldson, they had done so not just as a matter of principle, but also out of medical necessity. Unfortunately, the boy had been born with a genetic condition called Phenylketonuria (PKU). Occurring in one birth out of every ten thousand, it is a disorder that prevents the body completely metabolising animal proteins. This can result in toxins causing serious problems such as mental retardation. Sufferers, therefore, have to live a strict vegan lifestyle, and drink a specially formulated daily liquid concoction to offset the loss of animal protein in the diet. Fortunately, Donaldson had a good family and was managing his situation well. But more important for Kendal and me, he was intelligent, kind-hearted, and had a very imaginative sense of humour. I hoped that Donaldson would be a good friend to Kendal, maybe even a ‘dietary role-model’. I was looking forward very much to introducing the boys to each other. Sunday, 19 April - This being my last full day in Melbourne before heading home, Ross invited my son, Darren, his family, and me to a barbecue lunch. I welcomed this opportunity for a final get-together with the Boyds, and meet some of his friends. It was also an unexpected bonus when I saw Kendal and Gina had been invited, and he greeted me with eye contact and another firm handshake. It was a good sign, but I was interested to see how the boy would behave at a ‘greasy food fest’ like a backyard barbecue. Not surprisingly, he pigged-out, eating two sausages, two burgers and a chop, most with slices of white bread. In doing so, he totally ignored the healthier salads and boiled rice, and got stuck into the sugary soft drinks. Whether he was doing so out of pure habit or the knowledge that his world was about to change radically, I didn’t know. So I just said to myself, “Make the most of it, kid, because it’s the last you’ll have for a long time.” It was as I was finishing my own meal that Ross came over and sat next to me. He pointed at a guy aged about forty who appeared to be chatting-up his wife, Sally. Ross asked, “D’you know who that is?” The man looked vaguely familiar. But unable to place him, I shook my head, so Ross continued, “That’s the chap Sally and I named our son after.” The penny dropped immediately. It was Wesley Auld, the journalist and Ross’s childhood school friend. Here was the guy who had saved Ross twenty-seven years earlier in the blizzard. He was also the man who’d written a feature piece in the print media on the rehab unit in 2001, while it was treating a teenage alcohol abuser. The young fellow in question, named Jac, was aged just seventeen at the time, and had been diagnosed with PTSD after enduring a number of traumatic incidents, both in Australia and California. He and Wesley were very close friends, and Wesley had pulled some quite big strings to get him admitted at short notice. I nodded my head. “Yes, now I remember him. I guess he must be a good mate.” Ross also nodded. “That’s for sure. Ten of us owe him big time, which is why I have a bit of a favour to ask.” “Hello, hello,” I thought, “what’s Ross up to?” So I asked him what the favour was. It seems that Wesley liked to write the occasional human-interest story. Ross felt that what I was going to do with Kendal may just be suitable. “...If I’m successful,” I interrupted. “Nothing’s guaranteed, Ross, you know that. And what about his and his mother’s consent?” Ross had already considered every angle. So he asked me to keep detailed notes of what I do with Kendal, plus take a large number of digital photos during the process. That way, if things did work out well, we could offer the material to Wesley for a price, with the proceeds going into a trust fund for Kendal. Such a story may even inspire other obese teenagers to turn their lives around. I replied by asking, “When did you become such a philanthropist?” To this, he smiled slightly and replied, “When I saw just how miserable Kendal was becoming...I knew that something well and truly had to be done, not just for his sake, but for all the other fat kids. There’re just too many, Dennis! And no way am I going to let my Wesley and Angela end up like them!” My ex-student was quite right, and I understood his frustration. Two or three decades ago, kids like Donaldson were the rule and kids like Kendal were the exception. Nowadays, things have turned around through a hundred and eighty degrees. It has become less common to see healthy kids without an ounce of fat anywhere on their bodies. A majority of them have some expansion of the waistline. So I agreed to the request. We may not have been able to change society, but if Ross and I could make a difference in Kendal’s life, and those of a few others, then all well and good. I asked him, “Have you spoken to Wesley Auld about your idea?” It was to my relief when Ross told me that he hadn’t. For me, it meant there would be no other pressure except the expectations of the four people involved. And that was just the way I wanted it to stay for the time being. For the rest of the afternoon, my family and I enjoyed the hospitality of Ross and his family. I also chatted informally with Gina and Kendal. Now that his travel to Queensland was confirmed, he wanted to know more about what would be happening during his prolonged stay with me. They were questions that I answered in general terms. I did not go into details on purpose. The less he knew of what he was in for the better. I didn’t want him stressing about it.

Over the past few days, there’s been a fun little game running on Twitter called “#backflick”. As John Gushue explains, it’s a challenge to summarise the plot of famous films, if you saw them in reverse. Until recently, research by one of our commenters (thanks Kniffler) suggested it originated in this reddit post. But then it was suggested “it all started on 4chan”. Now, it appears it all came from a FilminFocus article in November 2008 by Jonathan Carter. Here are a few of my faves: The Wizard of Oz: Three friends escort girl & dog from fancy dress party in green city, so she can fly house back to Kansas. Friday the 13th: A magic hockey player heals a bunch of injured teens, so they can go home from camp. Godzilla: Revived by missiles, a giant lizard goes on a civil construction spree in downtown Manhattan before retiring to its island home. And I love this one…. Superman: A guy who flies around, putting people into precarious situations, then hiding. Ok, now it’s time to start the next challenge.. I’ve written the first 15… Please submit yours in the comments below, or.. (if you’re on Twitter) just add “#backgames” to your tweet. NOTE: As per Twitters 140 character word limit, when you write your BackGame in “comments”, try to write 25 WORDS OR LESS. Asteroids: A spaceship tends a galactic garden, growing tiny rocks into huge boulders. Bubble Bobble: Two evil children lock up their parents, turn into dinosaurs, then eat bubbles until they throw up colourful bonuses. Cave Story: A traveller lands on a floating island, helps the Doctor enslave the Mimigas, then falls asleep & forgets everything. Deus Ex: JC Denton overthrows one of 3 new world orders, travels the globe, then waits for terrorists to rebuild the statue of liberty. Donkey Kong: Pauline takes her boyfriend to the top of a building. There, she dumps him for a giant ape, and the heartbroken plumber climbs down the scaffolding. Doom: A space marine brings demons to life, locking colour-coded doors behind him before falling asleep, as his colleagues close a portal to hell. Elite: Commander Jameson brings peace to multiple galaxies, losing money & status before retiring on Lave with just 100 credits. Impossible Mission: Elvin Atombender asks Agent 4125 to furnish his underground base. 4125 clumsily drops jigsaw pieces as he works. Katamari Damacy: A prince must hide the stars, by rolling them across the earth’s surface, until they break into small everyday objects. Kick Off: Two players must bring soccer balls from their goal net… to the centre of the pitch. The player who produces the most balls – gets to choose the weather conditions. Legend of Zelda: Link offers Princess Zelda to the gods, in order to summon Ganon. Link then roams the countryside, hiding pieces of the triforce & reanimating Ganon’s monsters. Lemmings: The player drags Lemmings out of their home, makes them forget their abilities & sends them back to the previous level. Pacman: Pacman fills mazes with dots, pausing only to regurgitate fruit & ghosts. Robotron 2084: The last human family is lonely, so the player invites hundreds of robots to keep them company. Tetris: The player must break apart a giant rectangle, sending the pieces into space. C’mon… what’s YOUR BackGame? Submit it – in the comments below, or.. (if you’re on Twitter) just add “#backgames” to your tweet. Wow, welcome “first time” visitors! Thanks for joining in the fun of BackGaming. This post is attracting serious traffic! After you’ve left your comment, here are just a few of the things on J-OMG you might enjoy… An exclusive 3 part walkthrough of the world’s greatest travelling videogame exhibition – Photos of the Jack Bauer “24″ pinball – A review/photos of the incredible Sega Rally 3 arcade machine – and the greatest videogame SOCKS of all time. Kid Icarus: Heroic champion of Angel Land leaves his princess’s side, then regresses in age to boyhood before reviving the gorgon Medusa. He descends Mount Olympus bolstering her evil forces, hides three sacred treasures and enters the Underworld. Nice work Lucas! Portal: A woman with prosthetics breaks into a secret laboratory and builds an insane computer. Closing portals and building sentry robots behind her, our hero fortifies herself into a deep, maze-like sanctuary. Finally she falls asleep and dreams of cake. Bioshock: A man methodically removes his deep-sea diving suit while resurrection zombies and redistributing wealth. He escapes to the surface on a burning plane. Guitar Hero: I am increasingly unsure that I could be a rock star until I give my guitar back to the shop. Chess: The king is resurrected. Everything returns to normal. Braid: Everyone lives happily ever before. Now that the jigsaws will be taken apart we were looking forward to yesterday. After the future there used to be angst. [...] Het merendeel van de games hebben/hadden wel een soort van verhaallijn.. Held moet dame redden, kindjes moeten gemuteerde ouders onmuteren, dat soort dingen. Maar wat als het nu eens omgekeerd was ? [...] Wow – my first (non-English) blog link. Cool! Hello to all the Dutch speaking gamers. Elevator Action : a rich man arrives at a buidling in a red ferrari, leaves suitcases of money on every floor, leaves thru the roof on a steel cable Out Run : Driving from eastcoast to westcoast in ferrari doing voluntary car flips. Cabal : 2 soldiers create buildings with bullets and resurrect dead soldiers from the grave Double Dragon : A couple of friends drop off their girlfriend at a local gang and retire in a garage box Hohoho, brilliant! Halo: Master Chief builds a giant ring planet and then proceeds to round up the Flood and lock them in a small underground room. After resurrecting some of the Covenant, he then leaves the ring in a small pod, returns to his mothership and goes to sleep. warcraft: mystical beings resurrect creatures by giving them crap they don’t need, dances around to give them health then backs away slowly, not breaking eye contact. oh, there’s also guys that never leave where they are. curious guys with question marks. trading money/items for parts of animals and junk makes them exclaim profanity at you. laughing on the floor, rolling. oh, and the un-nerfing. gradually the game gets better as patches are removed from the game. Breakout: You must construct a wall using a ball and paddle, then catch the ball. Super Smash Bros: Nintendo icons gather to recover each other’s health before they are turned back into inanimate statues. Geometry Wars: Get the lowest score possible by reviving as many enemies as you can. Sonic the hedgehog 2. Sonic invades planet mobius from a space station and begins roboticising the animal population and activating various industrial and toxic complexes, whilst hiding several powerful emeralds. He finally abandons his fox sidekick and no one has seen him since. Noby Noby Boy: A very long multicoloured snake boy slowly shrinks and untangles himself from various tiny worlds while using farmyard animals as suppositories. After regurgitating his own arse he splits in two, reforms and then shrinks down to just his head and bum. I twittered these, but here they are: #backgames Call of Cthulhu: A man is revived, summons an Elder God, and goes on a quest to regain his sanity and return home to Innsmouth. #backgames Psychonauts: A boy quits a psychic spy agency to run around inside people’s heads, making them crazy and absorbing psychic power. [...] it’s going around this morning. Via Waxy, here is the same thing for videogames, plus a mention for Superman: A guy who flies around, putting people into precarious situations, [...] Katamari Damacy: A Japanese creation story. Sim City: The Great Hundred Year Depression. Rollercoaster Tycoon: A vast Theme-Park gets deeply into debt and is gradually taken apart by hoards of repo-men. Sentinel: A hyperspace-traveling robot erects big rotating statues on the highest peaks of 10000 landscapes and fills the lanscapes with trees, then it retreats to a hideout in a valley. Prince of Persia: A prince goes to prison voluntarily, leaving behind his significant other, positioning guards behind him and setting free his pet mouse. SimCity: After recovering from a series of natural disasters, a thriving metropolis is systematically reduced to a barren landscape by epic mismanagement. Civilization: Colonists from Alpha Centauri gradually lose all of their technology and regress into a tribal lifestyle over thousands of years. It started on reddit Thanks Kniffler! Edited – and credited. Command & Conquer Red Alert: After war between allies and soviet union ended, scientist decide to bring Hitler back to Germany. I thought these seems obvious, but I did not see them: Super Mario Bros: A plumber escorts a princess and seven toadstool creatures to various castle dungeons where he builds bridges and resurrects large lizard/turtle creatures before leaving to rebuild the Mushroom Kingdom, raising flags, building bridges, and leaving coins all around. Side plot: During this adventure, the plumber also battles weight issues by taking rapid weight loss mushrooms. Pac Man: A round yellow creature attempts to restore order in a corrupt world, however in the process breaks up with is longtime girlfriend. Distraught, he unleashes ghosts, animates food objects, and scatters pellets throughout 254 mazes. Super Mario 64: Mario traps Peach in a star, gives it to Bowser, and then takes the 120 stars that power the castle and giving it to various denizens living in mysterious paintings hanging within the castle. The Sims: A philanthropic community of Benjamin Buttons pay money to go to work and donate their furniture to charities before finally turning into a baby and disappears. I posted a Twitter, but why not here too? Chess: a king is born out of a chaotic gathering and he works to bring his subjects into two straight, hierarchical lines. Mirror’s Edge: A woman liberates the name of a government which is mislabled with conspiracy theory and then runs around on building rooftops. Abe’s Odyssey: Hellbent on destroying his people, Abe runs through a factory summoning members of his race with his mind – putting them in dangerous situations and in servitude. The factory likes him so much they make him a custodian. I think you guys all might like to know about Jump On Mushrooms, a game which is played backwards. Thanks smMerker – hadn’t heard about that one. Super Metroid: a planet forms, on which samus lands. she gives rise to mother brain, who gives birth to the gamma-exposed hatchling. samus then donates parts of her biosuit to statue pedestals for a few hours. ridley donates the hatchling to science which samus steals shortly thereafter You Have To Burn The Rope: (YHTBTR) Summoning the cursed chandelier off the Giant Colossus, he affixes it to the roof with alchemy and backs away cautiously Hi, mate. hehe. Nice idea. Oh, yeah, BackGame. Erm… Laser Squad (mission one): the squad bring Sterner Regnix back to life, repair his robot guards, rebuild his mansion, retreat from the planet, enter HQ, where they proceed to hand back their weapons, armour, before bogging off back home. Oh, and do get in touch. Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles: I use telekinesis to make my NES controller float into my hands and repair my shattered TV screen, then give a victory shout. Donatello swims backwards through a river, setting up bombs. very very funny Curious Case of Benjamin Button: a boy is born, grows up, and dies. Pssst! Shield… *games* not movies. Legend of Zelda, Link’s Awakening: Link dreams he sings the Windfish to sleep with 8 instruments. Then he hides the instruments in dungeons and revives monsters all around Kohilint Island. Link also gives advice to a stray owl that wanders around the island. In the end, Link swims off to build a ship in a thunderstorm. Root Beer/Bud Tapper Hundreds of angry customers line up to demand refunds for their beverages. An overworked bartender tries to cut wastes costs by recycling the liquids. Adventure for the Atari 2600: Hide a magic chalice, lock up the castles and resurrect three dragons. Grand Theft Auto: A wealthy philanthropist travels through the city distributing vehicles to pedestrians and giving out stacks of money to people lying on the sidewalk while helping them back to their feet. Minesweeper: A soldier travels through a known minefield and slowly removes all of the flags marking mines before walking away. Hungry, Hungry Hippo: Montezuma’s Revenge hits a small flock of well-fed hippos. Pandemic II: A group of scientists on Madagascar cure a devastating worldwide disease and work to repopulate the planet. The original Half-Life: Gordon Freeman enslaves the Vortigaunts, deorbits a satellite, revives a bunch of aliens and Marines, then seals a rift in spacetime before quitting his job to go to MIT. Spore: A spacefaring race with a galaxy-spanning empire gradually withdraws from all but one of the planets it occupies, dismantles all of its ships and cities, breaks down into tribal factions, degenerates into primitive subsentience, and finally evolves away its legs and becomes purely aquatic. Zork: It is very dark here. But not as dark as it was in the belly of that grue that just regurgitated you. Diablo: After creating the devil, a sole villain raises an army of demons and undead, bringing the legions right to the doorsteps of innocent villagers. Mortal Kombat: An excellent chiropractor saves a man from certain doom, and then after massaging him, they part ways. Frogger: A frog weaves between cars to get to the other side of the road (it works both ways!) Solitaire: A person randomly shuffle a deck of cards and splits half of them into piles of varying sizes. Little Big Planet: A small golem searches for Stephen Fry. World of Warcraft: A character delivers 15 feathers to an NPC who then tells him to go to the next village to deliver 15 feathers to an NPC. This is one of those ones that can be played back to front AND front to back and still make sense. World of Warcraft: Hundreds of thousands of overweight misanthropes emerge from their dark, body-odor filled rooms and slowly integrate with real-life society. [...] UPDATE: Sweet! The guy who started backgames left a comment and a link to his site, where he’s compiling a “Best of”. Find it here: [...] Fallout 3: Our protagonist irradiates the Potomac, then establishes a corrupt government agency. He then travels a nuclear wasteland repopulating it with a variety of mutants and criminals before climbing into an undergound bunker. Zero Wing: Great Justice ends when the Captain ZIGs, the bases are returned to you, and the bomb is set back down by somebody. In the year 2101. Warcraft III: The evil Night Elves summon Archimonde, who restores their forest in exchange. The Orcs of Kalimdor, running into the Demons, flee across Kalimdor to Azeroth, abandoning the Tauren along the way. The Undead Horde betrays Archimonde, banishing him and rebuilding Dalaran. They destroy Kel Thuzad at the Sunwell, and repair the High Elven cities. That done, Arthas returns Frostmourne to Northrend, reviving Muradin and leaving him to clean up there. He returns to Azeroth following Malganis and kills him there to restore Strahnbrad. Finally, he defeats a weakened Kel’Thuzad and destroys the few orcs who got to Azeroth early. It ends with Thrall landing at Azeroth, selling out Grom Hellscream to the humans, and setting up a lone hut. He has a dream in a thunderstorm, in which a raven tells him he did the right thing. Interstate ’76: A man plants a nuclear device in the heart of the largest oil field in Texas; he then travels the southwest repairing vehicles for police and “creepers” to finally resurrect his sister before parting ways with his companion Taurus. Forza 2: after 2 months of slowly building up enthusiasm for this racing game knowing its going to repair the kit you get from Microsoft which you sent there to be freshly redringed, you pop the disc in and out of your kit a few times and the red rings dissapear, thrusting you into the middle of the final lap where you can only assume you had just driven backwards over the finishing line. you proceed to drive backwards around many tracks passing many cars also driving backwards but far slower than you, as you unbegin each race you slowly replace your tricked out car with cheaper parts as your your monetary situation tumbles due to unbeginning too many races in last place, until at last you sell your only remaining vehicle. COD4 Modern Warfare…..A soldier with Christlike powers and a gun that sucks bullets out of dead people walks backward resurrecting hundreds of men and allowing them to go back into hiding while also causing destroyed structures to spontaniously rebuild themselves and explosive devices to become inert and harmless lumps of metal which he stores on his person….. Mario Sunshine: Mario sucks the water out of the world, creating large tainted areas and hiding all the light of the world within them. [...] Videogame plots in reverse games [...] Star Wars (Atari) – Giant space station the size of a small moon materialises emitting several waves of X-winged craft backwards down a trench. Jumping Jack – a stick man repeatedly falls through holes in the floor, forgetting a rhyme as he goes. Civilisation – the ruler of a one world government slowly splits his empire into separate nations in a mad crusade to return to the stone age Street Fighter – two enemies resolve their differences and heal each other’s wounds one by one Sonic the Hedgehog. Sonic takes the 6 Chaos Emeralds from the Green Hill Zone and makes the ugly flowers dissapear from it. He repairs Dr Robotnik’s Egg-o-Matic. He then proceeds to travel through Mobius repairing Badniks and returning gold rings to their rightful place. He also warps into another dimension several times to return the Chaos Emeralds. Robotnik also drops by occasionally and Sonic helps install add-ons to his Egg-O-Matic. Sonic then proceeds to return to the Green Hill zone where he finally relaxes, satisfied in the knowledge that he helped an old man get his life back on track. Tiger Woods Golf: Use a magnetic club to drag a ball out of hole from hundreds of yards away and get it to land exactly at Tiger Woods’ feet. Wii Fit: Perform yoga exercises in order to gain weight. Professor Layton: Steal answers to puzzles and leave a town in utter confusion. Phoenix Wright: Take a clear-cut case and lose it by making it seem like the defendant was the culprit. Animal Crossing: Lose friends, steal things from the museum, and leave town. Elite Beat Agents: Play popular music backwards to leave people miserable and helpless. Sorry, I got carried away. Not a video game (that I know of) but can’t resist: Monopoly: Left-wing government comes into power forcing successful corporation to help start up new businesses. All hotels/housing slowly demolished. Games ends when total communism is achieved. Actually Beanicus, there’s been quite a few: I played* the Commodore 64 version in the 80′s. (*For about 30 seconds, some things work better in real life) I have the board game anti-monopoly in my cupboard. You bring legal actions against cartels, and receive Fair Trading funds in return. Obiviously, if some one else lands on the cartel you’ve broken, they have to pay you compensation for wasting your time. Stu, I think you might have BackGames a little confused. It’s not “opposites”, it’s “what happens in the game from end to start”. Oh – and VIDEOgames. Not boardgames. Need For Speed Most Wanted: An extremely wealthy BMW-owning arrogant speed freak with a garage full of exotic sports cars with lurid paint-jobs and unnecessary spoilers, gradually works his way through an imaginary city (where it rains for only about two minutes at a time maybe six or seven times an hour), giving up said vehicles to idiots with inane nicknames, escaping the cops at every opportunity, until he’s finally left with a slow, ugly, but extremely “moddable” Fiat Punto. Mafia (PC, 2002): A mobster tires of his life within ‘this thing of ours’. He makes amends by returning cash to vulnerable citizens, performing rudimentary – yet radical – field surgery bullet removal on policemen, gangsters and the public before reversing his car backwards at high speed to fulfill his dream of becoming a taxi cab driver. Was this inspired by a certain Red Dwarf episode? Hi Shaurz, I’ve only seen about 2 minutes of a single RD episode, so I’m afraid not. I just saw the “#backflick” thing on Twitter, then thought a “videogame” one would also be fun. I reckon you would love the Red Dwarf episode he’s talking about then (The episode is called “Backwards” just incase you’re curious, and it’s definitely one of the best episodes of the entire program) Shadow of the Colossus: A man climbs out of a portal in a pool and proceeds to travel the Forbidden Lands reviving the 16 Colossus by very cleverly climbing down from their heads. He ends this by stealing a dead girl and riding off into the sunset. Command & Conquer (Tiberian Dawn): Earth gradually rids itself of a mysterious green alien infection while some terrorists fight the UN; eventually an asteroid is fired off into space, ending the controversy. F.E.A.R. A team of elite secret soldiers are helicoptered into a city that has been hit by an imploding atom bomb. There they meet a small girl who has the power to materialise people out of pools of blood, and turn on the lights whenever you’ve finished resurrecting squads of psychic soldiers killed by the massive implosion, you proceed out of the city using more and more rudimentary weapons, and return to base, where your commanding officer calls you a noob. Metal Slug: An evil man brings back a huge army of nazi-ish soldiers one by one with his resurrection gun. He also ties up lots of hippies with a knife as he goes. Left 4 Dead: 4 people create a horde of zombies who then turn back into regular people over a period of 2 weeks. Evil Genius: The ruler of the world uses a high-technology device to force the regions of the world to become independent states, then carefully deconstructs his device, returning the component parts to the independent states, as well as distributing various valuable objects between the regions. Eventually, he fades into obscurity, with assistance from government agents of each region. Pong: A dot flies from offscreen and bounces between two paddles before landing on one of the paddles. This continues till one makes it to zero. Jet Set Willy (ZX Spectrum, 1984): Miner Willy must get out of bed and randomly scatter wineglasses throughout his mansion before having a big party. Assassin’s Creed: Altair’s master orders him to take the Piece of Edin and go visit a number of influential figures in various cities and save them from death. Later, he hides the Piece of Eden in Solomon’s Temple with the helped of a member of the Knights Templar. In the future, a guy called Desmond forgets all about this. Almost every Castlevania game: A member of the Belmont clan summons Dracula’s castle then resurrects Dracula using his magical whip, which he later uses to repopulate the castle with various monsters. After installing new candles in every room, he then strolls out of the castle. Other Castlevania games: Same thing, only it’s not a Belmont, and the character leaves behind various objects that grant powers scattered around the Castle. Metal Gear Solid: Solid Snake builds a machine to fire a nuclear weapon and then sneaks out before anyone notices. [Ed's note: Dan put a few more in, but they were all movies. We're doing VIDEOGAMES in this thread please. Mind you... I do give you kudos for this...] Norbit: Everything’s still not funny backwards. Chess: A heroic king fights his way out of a corner before retreating back and calling for reinforcements. Jeopardy: Three contestants ask Alex Trebek a series of difficult questions before realising that he has all the answers written on a piece of card in his hand. Football Manager: You gradually de-construct a football club whilst gradually seeing your girlfriend and friends more often per day. Final Fantasy: A group of ever-weakening mercenaries travel around the world spreading wealth, increasing monster populations and helping an evil lord come to power. [...] fills mazes with dots, pausing only to regurgitate fruit & ghosts.” That’s BackGames, the latest way to waste time amuse your friends on [...] Original Half-Life: Super soldier Gordon Freeman gets dispatched by g-man to heal a huge alien creature in another dimension, xen, by removing grenades from inside its head. Gordon makes his way out of xen while healing smaller aliens and infilitrates Black Mesa facility. As he progresses and things get easier, he gets rid of his heavy arsenal of weapons until he’s only holding a crowbar. After restoring order to Black Mesa, Gordon helps the remaining aliens return home by repairing a device by pulling a sample cart out of its beam. Gordon is hired by Black Mesa, and after storing his HEV suit away he heads for a well-earned rest at the dormitories. On the way he catches one last glimpse of his previous employer, who looks at him approvingly from a passing train. Planescape: Torment A man is whisked away from the Blood War into a strange fort. He and his new-found companions (torn into the fortress from Sigil) escape, but not before the man has separated his mortality into a new entity and forgotten his name. As the group travels across the planes, the companions find their homes and return there after estranging themselves from the man. The man progressively forgets everything that will happen to him, and how he will become an utter jerk. After numerous deaths and resurrections he meets the ghost of his loved one at a mortuary and lies down on a gurney to die. A zombie drags the gurney out of the mortuary. It is known that after this the man dies again many times while he fixes all the damage he has done, and each time he suddenly remebers everything that will happen to him before his next death. Before his birth, he trades his immortality away to a hag who later decides she couldn’t care less about what can change the nature of a man. That was very long and very confusing, but I think I got it about right. Joq, We’re after 25 words or less. Not 250 words or less! Couldn’t resist writing a couple more. Nethack: A demigod from the astral planes gives away immortality in order to return the Amulet of Yendor and other artifacts into the Dungeons of Doom. Dwarf Fortress: A community of dwarves seals away demons, drives away goblin raiders from their city, then tears everything down, smelts, destroys, trades or outright gives away all porperty. To many, this is a sobering experience. The dwarves return the minerals and gems inside the mountains as they fill all the corridors with rock and dirt. People get sent home as the work progresses, and the society reverts to a kind of communism. After the final seven dwarves leave the site with the last of the supplies, there is no trace left of them ever having been there. Freecell: Four piles of playing cards, sorted by suit and in order, are placed into piles in random order. Need for Speed: Underground series: A street racer strips and sells all the aftermarket parts on his vehicles, gives the money to his rivals, and leaves town in a cheap imported car. Space Invaders: Using your construction ship, create a fleet of spacecraft to colonize another planet. Thief series: Garret sneaks into unconscious people’s houses, revives them, and gives them valuable goods. Diablo: Deep in a dungeon, the protagonist pulls a rock out of his head, summons the devil, and then runs away, creating an army of hellspawn and scattering weapons, gold, and potions as he goes. Fallout: The descendant of a vault 13 outcast steals the only working water chip and uses it as a bargaining chip to return to the vault. DDR: Physically fit and highly coordinated people lower their dexterity and increase their girth by dancing to incrementally easier songs. Beatmania: Carpaltunnel-sufferers ease out of the pain by cutting down on the crazy hard songs, they also earn money by selling their aftermarket arcade-style controllers and going back to the bundled ones. ..apply with small variations to each and every music/rhythm game out there. Tron: A) Escape from the MCP cone and build a rotating wall of electronic bricks so no one else can get inside. B) Descend from a glowing I/O tower and try to infect the game grid with bugs faster than they can combine themselves. C) Roam around a maze and catch glowing bullets the bounce off walls emanating from enemy tanks that suddenly appear. D) You and some enemies work to methodically sweep up a big mess of light that someone left on the game grid. Ninja Gaiden – A ninja resurrects an ancient demon, finds out his father is alive, and leaves the U.S. Bionic Commando – A soldier with a bionic arm meets a clone of Hitler on his way to abandoning Super Joe to his fate. Contra – Using the Konami code to take away 30 lives (Start, A, B, Right, Left, Right, Left, Down, Down, Up, Up), two soldiers revive Red Falcon and get way through the jungle. Minesweep; hey, let’s hide some mines and nick some flags Tiger Woods; let’s see how far you can whack golf balls out of a hole. Final Fight; Haggar leaves his daughter with the wrong choice of babysitter, then takes in the sights on the way to the ghetto. Gran Turismo; take your Castrol Supra GTi and trade it in for a Demio A Spec. Any Pokemon Game: A young boy, on a quest to return home, must first heal and then distribute over 450 different species of creatures. Along the way he has heal-offs, to see who can heal the other players creatures faster. In some instances, he heals the other creatures so well, that he gives the other player a badge to commemorate the achievement. During his journey home, the young boy also takes the time to erase the data collected in his pokedex before returning the empty tome to its creator. He also empowers an evil Team, who decides (after they are re-powered) to try and take over the world. [...] See more here: BackGames = Videogame plots in reverse « Just One More Game [...] My take on Pokemon: A young boy enters the world of animal pit-fighting. Initially prosperous and renowned for the wide variety of powerful creatures he has, his ineptitude cases him to lose money and prestige. He abandon his animals, one by one, being unable to care for their declining health. Leisure Suit Larry series: A suave womanizer in the 1980s loses his ability to bed women, but cures all of his STDs in the process. Larry prevents himself from seeing pixelated boobs ever again by failing a 5-question quiz. Milon’s Secret Castle: A powerful boy’s fall from grace, wasting away his strength, constitution, and life savings due to his insatiable addiction: inhaling caustic bubbles excreted by evil creatures. He then gets kicked out of the house. Resident Evil 4: The aim is to hide a biological sample on a bearded man before locking up your female companion and driving off. To achieve this transform huge monsters into normal-sized people, cram tentacles into decapitated Spaniards’ necks using their own heads, levitate treasure into trees and fashion wooden barrels with a knife. Tips: If you lose your companion, enemies bring you a new one through a resurrection portal. Use the healing knife to save Krauser. Before starting the game several new mini games are locked. WC3 DOTA: Alliance between the scourge and sentinel has been made. In addition the scourge is reviving the World Tree as the Sentinel is re-constructing The Frozen Throne. If it was not enough – to strengthen their bonds further the Sentinel is continuously resurrecting various Ghouls and Necromancers to aid the Scourge whilst the Scourge in their turn brings Treants and Druids to aid the Sentinel. Since its such a peaceful time all Heroes is selling their finest equipment in addition to the slow de-levelving process – during all this they also pay a small amount of gold over time to some unknown power. Amidst all this an artifact is restored to Roshan. nintendogs. hurt puppies. Weez, Hint: You need to make the game go “in reverse” – not just write “the opposite”. eg Nintendogs might be…. “Help your puppy forget all her tricks, while she loses her accessories & friends.” Fear 2 Project Origins Help Alma Survive Forza Motorsport: A skilled race car driver slowly returns his fleet of racecars back to their original state and owners. Supreme Commander: Explosions reveal various robot like units that all journey to a factory which disassembles them. On their journey they occasionally create more robotic units while repairing the pock marked landscape. Missile Command: Nuclear missiles are launched creating explosions that sometimes reveal cities. This continues until fewer and fewer missiles are launched. Chrono Trigger: The player travels through time haphazardly, attempting to lose all that follow him. Super Mario Bros: Kill a princess in order to revive turtles with your butt. Tetris: Park up a spaceship before building a wall that looks like Swiss cheese. Halo 3 A group of people attend a funeral for our hero who performed an amazing backwards leap from a transport in a warthog and drove in reverse across an amazing exploding platform. (where he died – numerous times….) ahaha you guys are awesome [...] animals and live with his mother.” (See a zillion more on Twitter.) Well, the new jam is BackGames, in which video game plots are reversed, with hilarious results. Here are a few [...] Ico: a boy with horns lures a girl into a castle to trap her in a cage. He then seals himself in a coffin and waits to be taken back to his village.

Why not fire all the teachers?. The- Follow my blog all day, every day by bookmarking And for admissions advice, college news and links to campus papers, please check out our new Higher Education page at By Valerie Strauss | February 24, 2010; 2:55 PM ET Categories: Education Secretary Duncan | Tags: firing teachers, school reform Save & Share: Previous: So you really think your kid doesn’t sext? Next: College application videos: Good or bad idea? Posted by: LadybugLa | February 24, 2010 4:01 PM | Report abuse If you look into the whole story, the sequence of events, you will see that this drastic move was not simply a case of bad test scores = fired teachers. The superintendent asked for the teachers to take on 6 additional duties: superintendent made the consequences of rejecting these very clear -everyone gets fired- the union chose to reject and so everyone at the school was fired. Now, I realize that many would say "but teachers do so much already" and I do not doubt that among the 74 mentioned in the article there were many good folks who were willing to even do that extra work -but the union made the decision. The thing is, this is on of the poorest areas of the state -the teachers at the high school make $70K, as compared to a median income in the town of $22K. I can only imagine how few of the parents thought that the average teacher there deserved such a salary. These are obviously kids who need a lot more help than just a good teacher, maybe such drastic action at the school district level will draw attention from the state and increase support for programs outside school. But let's not judge the school board and assume that they wanted to fire people ---they wanted reforms to help the students & could not get that from the workforce they had. Posted by: amk19 | February 24, 2010 4:23 PM | Report abuse This happens so often in our society now. The idea that if things aren't going well someone can be fired and it will be fixed. The whole idea that the teachers are there to solve all the kids problems instead of just dispensing information is wrongheaded to me. What does the gym teacher have to do with the kids not being able to add? None of that is the point anyway. Make a big news splash and look bold and 5 years from now the school will be the same with less people paying attention. Posted by: Dremit97 | February 24, 2010 4:25 PM | Report abuse Sooooo.....what's your solution, then? Desperate situations call for desperate measures, yes? If you don't like this approach, what approach could you suggest to the superintendent that would be better that they haven't tried already? It's so easy to be shocked at this kind of thing, but why complain if you're not going to be part of the solution? Posted by: vivace751 | February 24, 2010 4:41 PM | Report abuse The teachers can't teach. we took that away from them. What they can do is watch the kids grow up in the classrooms. The parents are too busy to teach their kids responsibility. Now who are they going to blame? It comes down to the parents to help the teachers do the right thing by letting them do their job. Many times the teachers have to start with the basics such us "respect" and then the parents sue because they feel they are the only ones that can do this job. THEN DO IT Posted by: cecil3 | February 24, 2010 4:47 PM | Report abuse Prett lame that you ignore the fact that teachers refused any concessions at all at the worst school in the state and demanded to be paid an additional $90 per hour to work with students. Posted by: jpmcad | February 24, 2010 4:49 PM | Report abuse 1) "They did this because about half of the school’s students graduate, 2) Only 7 percent of 11th-graders were proficient in math in 2009." So between grades K-10 (approx. 11 years of multiple education exposure levels and chances to increase academic performance (and who knows how many teachers)), ONLY 7 percent were proficient in math? ONLY 7 PERCENT!! that's CRIMINAL! and these people were making $70K/year??! How many more years should the teachers still be allowed to provide this awful level of service toward student achievement? Valerie, I have no doubt that teachers have already been screened and will be available to fulfill teacher positions. That whole mess didn't just begin overnight but overtime and the decision was finally made. Posted by: TwoSons | February 24, 2010 5:09 PM | Report abuse $70k/year? And the people STILL want to pay that much? For a lack of success in their children? For that kind of money (maybe even less!), I would take that job. I would move to that state. I would work those extra hours. And my kids would know why... because they would do the same. Mine are grown now,. These teachers probably chose the wrong job, maybe took it because the need for teachers was so great that the schools were trolling for teachers in all the colleges. (We're doing that now for medical personnel, and we can fill all those jobs but maybe with the wrong people. Scary thought?) The one thing the really GOOD teachers will tell you is that the only goal is to get the kids to understand, to connect with the material, and the right teachers have that skill. The wrong teachers only repeat the material, and it's boring, dull, and unsuccessful as a teaching method with all but the best students - the ones who have figured out how to basically teach themselves - or the ones who have parents who want to help. I'll take one of those teaching jobs. Heck, they're making twice what I'm making, and I really hate my job. I wish they'd do something drastic like that here, in Michigan, because our teachers are vastly overpaid too. I think every state should implement payment for progress, and pay reduction for failure. It's the only way, carrot and stick. In the end, the best teachers would finally be paid what they're worth... but so would the worst ones. Posted by: whisperonthewind | February 24, 2010 5:12 PM | Report abuse Valerie, not sure if you've viewed, "Transcript: R.I. Ed. chief Gist chats with 135 projo readers" on this issue." It may answer many of your questions within your blog: Posted by: TwoSons | February 24, 2010 5:39 PM | Report abuse Ed-U-Cay-Shun in this country is one of the biggest expenses and the largest problem we have precisely because no matter what you do to it, from pumping in more money to pumping in less money, to firing teachers or reducing class sizes, from establishing Commissions or setting national standards, nothing - NOTHING works. The reason is that it's an unsolvable problem the way we have to do it. The teachers unions in this country should be broken on the wheel and all the schools should be run for-profit. Then we might see some improvement. Posted by: Extempraneous | February 24, 2010 5:40 PM | Report abuse Ok see heres the problem nobody has the stats at this school!!!! I saw it on CNN last nite over 80% are students that speak English as a second language. When the guidance counselor was interviewed he noted that the 48% graduation rate is misleading because most of the students are transient! They leave in the middle of the year to go back to their home country and then return the next year or just dont come back at all! The small town is made up of immigrants and many are still migrant so attendance rates fluctuate drastically!!!.... Another stat that is misleading is the income ratio!!! Most of the teachers have been in the field for over 20 years so they made an extremely slow climb to that salary amount!!! We are not talking about 3rd year teachers!!! While the median income is low remember what I stated earlier most of the towns people are immigrant workers who are extremely low on the pay scale to begin with!!!... Please lets look deeper into the facts!!!! Posted by: CedricCS | February 24, 2010 5:50 PM | Report abuse Did anyone ask the teachers what is needed, that is, without union reps so honest answers could be expressed? Now no good teacher is going to want to go there. No doubt there were very many good teachers. If you really want to fix the schools, fire at least half of the administration that is above the principals and then make the rest all answerable to the teachers. Have the teachers pick the few good books that are needed for each grade. Put the teachers in charge of the schools and the unions Posted by: rjohnson2842 | February 24, 2010 6:16 PM | Report abuse Very few people would actually take a job at any of these schools, part of the reason they make so much. If students come in with little english, move in and out of the system, and have no math skills to start with, it doesn't matter how much you pay the teacher. That is the point, the schools can't be put in the position to fix a decades worth of prior issues in a school year. That's the problem with the mentality that you will fire everyone and things will be fixed. They won't. Perhaps take the opertunity to fire low performing teachers, close the whole school and distribute the students sparsely amoung better performing schools. Same students, same building, same neighborhood, new teachers will get you the same old results. Teachers don't always matter that much. Posted by: Dremit97 | February 24, 2010 6:24 PM | Report abuse I understand the frustration of the parents and the board at Central Falls. There seems to be a prepared script for teachers across the country to blame the parents for the lack of success of the students. The teachers NEVER accept blame for failing 50% of their students. It is always something else. Inadeqate text book, ciriculum, class-size anything but the teachers themselves. The board usually backs the teachers and not the students or the parents. Arne Duncan is right; the students only get one chance for an education. The board should be applauded for their move. Posted by: williemae1 | February 24, 2010 7:00 PM | Report abuse Why not? The kids are getting the short end of the stick because adults cannot sit down and discuss and work things out. There is probably a lot more to this than was actually put in the story that came out. Posted by: skyjumperdave | February 24, 2010 7:04 PM | Report abuse If you deal with half the morons you deal with who serve as the front office for doctors offices, customer service desks, department stores, etc., these are the kids who graduate from crappy schools like this who have learned little along the way. As a Rhode Islander, I say, BRAVO! The teachers union in my state has been far too powerful for far too long and our kids have suffered for it. These teachers have grown too accustomed to thinking they are "fire proof." No doubt, the school has some wonderful teachers -- but not 93 of them. Rhode Island's unemployment situation is severely depressed. I'm sure that for $70K a year, the state can easily find 93 teachers from within or without the state to take those jobs and do a better job for those kids. Firing all of the teachers may not have ever had a record of improvement but one thing we know for sure, leaving the crummy teachers in place hasn't either. I say we try something bold and something new. These kids deserve the opportunity. Posted by: sassafrasnewport | February 24, 2010 7:04 PM | Report abuse So, after they get new teachers in, who will they fire if the students still don't make progress? If your teachers have low expectations of their students then that becomes an issue. Teachers who have low expectations of their students don't bother to teach them. They don't demand the students pay attention, cut the crap and sit in the class room to learn. They don't engage the students. They also don't expect for parents to care or participate. Because of this , they come into the classroom not prepared to engage the students and demand that they respect them, themselves or their privilege of obtaining a free education.If teachers have low expectations of their students then they also have low expectations for their parents and therefore don't engage their parents until there is a problem. That is a huge part of the problem. Until schools demand better behavior and involvement from their students and parents you can fire all the teachers you want and it won't make a difference. It is time for the public school system to demand of their teachers, students , parents and school administrations joint cooperation. Dress codes are a start for students and teachers. I have seen teachers that look just like the students, not professional at all. Demanding respect from the students towards the teachers and the teachers need to respect the students. Zero tolerance for disrespecting the teacher and school. And stopping the law suits because Johnny didn't get chosen for the school play. These are starters. Posted by: catmomtx | February 24, 2010 7:05 PM | Report abuse I taught for 40 years in the Riverside, California school system. By my choice I taught in three high schools and was a "quasi" administrator at district office and at 2 junior high schools. I was and am still amazed at the use of the hatchet not the scalpel. Why not attack the problem from the beginning, as the author of this column said--the elementary school. Why not start at an even more basic point. THE FAMILY. I'm sure thousands of superior teachers will be glad to teach in this city. All the staff including the principal, vice principal (assistant), counsellors, and teachers were incompetent. I'd ask some additional questions? What's the crime rate in the city? How many kids are truant and hang out in stores. HOW MANY STORE OWNERS TURN THEM IN? What's it like in the home? Study time and room? How supportive are the parents? How interested in their sons and daughters education? Yes, Arne Duncan cheers on. He wants to BLAME only the teachers and not look at other issues. If they don't replace ALL the people fired, an I mean all, what impact will this have on the students? What impact will this have on education for the rest of the year. Sounds like there is another agenda on the part of the Board and the Superintendent. Posted by: diamond2 | February 24, 2010 7:07 PM | Report abuse Get rid of the bums. All of those lackluster morons you run into every day as you go to the doctors office, a customer service desk or a department store? These are the kids that graduate from these crappy schools. Not all of course but we've all had the experience. As a Rhode Islander, the teachers unions have for too long commanded a level of power over our schools that needed to be challenged. No doubt, there have been some good teachers at Central Falls; not these 93 however. Mediocre progress is not progress -- it is just bookmarking and a half assed effort at nothing. Who will take these positions? Haven't you heard? Rhode Island is woefully depressed in the unemployment world. No doubt there are a lot of fine teachers out there who would love to take one of these jobs, covet the opportunity and do a much better job. Firing all of the teachers may not have ever set any records anywhere but as we've seen too many times, keeping them on for posterity hasn't either. Get rid of the bums. Posted by: sassafrasnewport | February 24, 2010 7:10 PM | Report abuse Back during the heyday of immigration, teachers had students who didn't speak English at home, whose parents couldn't come to school because they were working day and night trying to earn a living, who didn't speak English well enough to know what school their kids went to. The difference is the teachers were qualified--very few were hired as coaches and then given a history or health class to satisfy the law. The schools took the kids with what they knew and taught from there. The kids could move along one grade a year, one grade in two years, one grade a semester, or even skip a grade if they could do the work. My father, part of that generation but not an immigrant's child, had a high school teacher with a PhD in the science he taught and used a textbook written by a nationally-known scientist. Now, students sit in class 180 days whether they know the material or not. The textbook is written by a committee; the teachers whose names are on the cover may have never seen the text. The proofreading, even in English texts, may have been done in a foreign country. Factual errors aren't corrected even if caught, because that would require changing the size of the chapter headings to make room on the page for the correct information. And high school teachers may have never taken a college course at all in the subjects they teach. And the results are justified by standardized that may or may not measure anything. The wonder is not that the students aren't doing better--it's that they are learning anything at all. Posted by: sideswiththekids | February 24, 2010 7:43 PM | Report abuse Why is the school "failing"? What is not happening at this school? For background, there's this:. Repeating the l;ast line: these same students at Central Falls only had 22% proficiency on the 7th grade tests, 5 years earlier. Posted by: edlharris | February 24, 2010 8:01 PM | Report abuse Have you even seen the people teaching your kids lately? let me give you an example. I used to rent a house in the Holmes Run area of Falls Church, sharing it with 4 other people, all school teachers at Woodburn Elementary school. They couldn't cook worth a darn. Didn't clean up at all. Loved to binge drink and host parties. At least two of them had bundles of mail being forwarded to them from other addresses, obviously from collectors and creditors. Generally pathetic excuses for adults. And they are elementary school teachers. No wonder your kids are screwed up before they even get to middle school. And why did they become teachers? Because they couldn't hack physics, engineering, or any other discipline except education... having no where else to go, of course education departments will accept anyone for their programs. It looks good on the bottom line when they submit a budget report for the next fiscal year. Losers. Posted by: biffgrifftheoneandonly | February 24, 2010 8:25 PM | Report abuse What a F#@*ING JOKE! I'm SORELY disappointed that our education secretary would applaud something like this. Posted by: TheReflectiveEducator | February 24, 2010 8:47 PM | Report abuse Only 7 percent of 11th-graders were proficient in math in 2009." ____________________________ I would like to know exactly how many are proficient in math when they graduate. . Posted by: 37thand0street | February 24, 2010 9:00 PM | Report abuse This is terrible and I'm sure it was an awful shock to the teachers and school employees who have dedicated their lives to these students. If anyone thinks teaching is an easy job, they should try it. If you can't get a job in a school system, volunteer to teach Sunday School like I do, or substitute teach or volunteer to tutor or mentor with a program like Big Brothers/Big Sisters. If you do, you'll see what I see: teaching is an incredibly difficult job. I only have to do it for an hour and a half once a week in a classroom of 8 students (11 year olds) AND I have an assistant. That is a far, far, far cry from what our public school teachers have to face. If the Catholic Church held me to the same standard that NCLB holds public school teachers, every boy in my class would be planning to be a priest or at least a deacon. Every girl would be planning to be a nun. Instead, I've only got one kid willing to be an altar boy. If I taught in a public school, I would be out on my rear end. Posted by: kathycoulnj | February 24, 2010 9:08 PM | Report abuse @biffgrifftheoneandonly- I'm sure I could find 4 random people in your profession who are similar to what you describe (heavy drinkers, partiers, poor students, etc.) - hardly fair to compare all teachers to this admittedly low standard. Posted by: cnote_723 | February 24, 2010 9:25 PM | Report abuse Makes me sick - about the teachers and especially about Duncan. As for the students - no one's looking after them. It's just a bunch of silly adult games. Maybe in a couple of years, when the next batch of teachers flames out, things will change. I'm not hopeful. Posted by: efavorite | February 24, 2010 9:42 PM | Report abuse Why are only the HS teachers being penalized for low achievement levels? Clealy low academic achievements were occurring prior to students entering high school. BTW...it seems when teachers agree to these larger pay scales, it's considered combat pay "with strings" attached. Raise test scores or face consequences. Posted by: PGCResident1 | February 24, 2010 9:44 PM | Report abuse so employers can unilaterally change the union contract, then fire all union members, then get called "courageous" by a government official now? Posted by: someguy100 | February 24, 2010 9:45 PM | Report abuse Also, out of the 168 hours in a week, I as a teacher see a student for ~4. How do you expect me to turn around 11 years of low expectations and failure in 4 hours a week (with 25+ other students in there with them no less)? Posted by: someguy100 | February 24, 2010 9:56 PM | Report abuse Let's all base school reform on Duncan's Chicago miracle and Rhee's Baltimore miracle. Kinda of like making major policy decisions based on things that don't exist, except in certain ideologues imaginations. Oh wait, that was Bush and the WMD's, oh wait, that didn't go so well. Posted by: mamoore1 | February 24, 2010:31 PM | Report abuse ummmm..WAPO! I'm pretty sure companies must pay to ADVERSTISE on your website/blogs and probably don't appreciate FREEBEE advertisement your permitting (please remove the nonsense above and provide better censorship on your blogs) @someguy100 That's the part I'm not really understanding. Why aren't middle school elementary & middle schools teachers focused upon as well? Posted by: PGCResident1 | February 24, 2010 10:41 PM | Report abuse Once again the kids are off the hook. It's the teachers fault, it's the unions fault, it's the lack of money, it's too much money, it's the parents fault .... The kids failed. Someone ought to tell them it's their responsibility to learn. The parents, the teachers, the schools, the counselors .... none of them can force students learn to learn. That's the message I got when I was in grade school. It was my job to learn and no one else. Period. The message today is it's the responsibility of everyone else for the students to learn. The kids are off the hook. Posted by: James10 | February 24, 2010 11:15 PM | Report abuse I know how the state of Rhode Island can turn these "bad" teachers into "good" teachers overnight. Just transfer all of them to the most affluent district in the state and (voila!) these teachers will get great results! I guarantee it. Seriously, although I feel very sorry for the students and the teachers, this action (along with the failed turnarounds in Chicago) will just prove what almost everyone already knows: it's all family. Posted by: Linda/RetiredTeacher | February 24, 2010 11:25 PM | Report abuse Interesting you say that. I don't think anyone's goal is to seek "blame" but to obtain solutions to a very critical issue. I think's it's only fair that children are provided opportunity wherever and whenever possible. Multiple BILLIONS of dollars are placed into the public school system nationwide. Increased funding has been historic for the past couple of decades, but yet, there is an inability to solidify much higher and consisten proficiency levels. When our children fail, it affects all of us. We cannot allow this to continue. Children are our nation's most valuable and natural resource. Who cares whose fault. We must resolve and permenantly sustain HIGH educational standards and provide adequately and effectively toward our future, aka our youth via highly qualified and effective eduators. Children are KNOW WHERE near as complicated as foreign dictorships or governments, but yet, we spend triple amount to secure and sustain. No More Excuses. It seems to contributes to children who are being ignored while school boards and teacher unions are "negotiating" for YEARS to figure out "what's fair." Parents and Students are caught in the middle of the nonsense and that's not fair either. In the meant time, students STILL need to be properly prepared to become contributors to society. Posted by: PGCResident1 | February 24, 2010 11:43 PM | Report abuse A school for transients? WTF? Give the money earmarked for rehiring to ICE and see if that won't help set things right. Posted by: beowulf3 | February 24, 2010 11:44 PM | Report abuse Wow, you posters seem to believe everything you read without checking your facts first. So check this out: The ONLY certificated staff members making 70K a year in Rhode Island are those with a PhD who have been teaching nearly THIRTY YEARS! Check the salary schedule for yourself. That's right, do your research before you believe the idiot who made it sound like there are really a bunch of teachers who make 70K. Oh, and news flash: people who earn a PhD are most likely ADMINISTRATORS. I have been teaching for 10 years and I don't know anyone with a PhD who is still in the classroom. You can all just simmer down and take it easy, since you obviously don't know what you're talking about. To all the valid points made by the author of the article on why NOT to fire all the teachers, let me add this: Who do YOU know of that willing to work extra hours WITHOUT COMPENSATION??? THAT IS SIMPLY LUDICROUS! Not to mention the fact that educators ALREADY put in COUNTLESS hours on their own that they will never be paid for. No, we don't just work a 7.5 hour day. Try 10-12. One hour to prepare lessons, make parent phone calls, grade papers, etc. isn't nearly enough time...so we take work home. Not a folder full of work - a bag full. Every night. No, we don't have the summers off - that's when we advance our education with more college credits, which we are required to do (and pay for out of our own pockets - don't most people get paid for required additional training?). We also work summer jobs to make ends meet. Last summer I took a college course and worked. Don't act like we don't already sacrifice. If you think that, you are truly ignorant. Posted by: Politiciansareignorant | February 24, 2010 11:59 PM | Report abuse Chew on this: here so many of you are casting judgment on these teachers without even knowing anything about the actual test used to measure student success. Did you stop to think it might be flawed? I've seen tests in my state that were asking students questions 2 grades above what they were required to know. Whoever made these tests was out of touch with what students were supposed to be learning and when. You can't say anything about a score unless you have seen the test it comes from. Not taking the test into consideration is like putting an anorexic in charge of a fat camp - you have to consider who or what is the measuring tool. Let's play devil's advocate here: Since we are so game to put teachers on the line as the sole people responsible for test scores, let's flip the card over. Let's say that the state is going to pass a law that says that it is solely the parents' responsibility to keep students from failing. I mean, if they were doing their job, reading to their young ones and making sure they did their homework, wouldn't achievement be higher? If parents were instilling the right work ethic into their children, wouldn't they be more successful? That's right...so now if kids aren't meeting standard, the state is going to take them into custody and find a foster parent who can do a better job. If you think this sounds ridiculous, then you need to reconsider what you are saying by placing sole blame for lack of student achievment on the shoulders of teachers. "But my kid won't do his homework - he just sits there," you say. "It's not my fault, I'm doing my best!" Well what makes you think that teachers aren't trying THEIR best? I can tell you they do. We don't get into this profession for the money...because it isn't anywhere NEAR $70K. If it was, I wouldn't still owe about $15,000 in school loans 10 years later. WAKE UP AMERICA: Do your research and ask the right questions before you jump on some ignorant bandwagon. Posted by: Politiciansareignorant | February 25, 2010 12:02 AM | Report abuse There is a very simple explanation. You see some ethnoracial groups just tend to have lower levels of IQ-type intelligence. The average IQ of Hispanics is about 88 and for Blacks it is about 85 compared to Whites at 100. Central Falls High is 87% Hispanic and Black (Total = 208, Hispanic = 154, Black = 27, White = 26). Regarding 11th grade Math scores in Rhode Island, 90% of Hispanics are below proficient--compared to 94% of Hispanics in Central Falls High. Wow 94% failure rate compared to the state average of 90%, those Central Falls High teachers really are bad teachers, no wonder they are being fired! At Central Falls High 92% of Blacks are below proficient--compared to the 93% of total Rhode Island Blacks who are below proficient. All good liberals have seemed to believe that it is a wonderful thing for the USA to have permitted essentially open borders with Mexico and Latin America. Then these same liberals are all now complaining when Hispanics (who are not White since they have high levels of African and/or Native American ancestry) turn out to be on average substantially less intelligent than average White Americans. Well, what did they expect? Do you see very many non-Whites in Mexico and Latin America showing high academic performance? Oh yeah, they are not too smart there either. We could have been like Canada and allowed only college educated (i.e. higher IQ) foreigners to immigrate into our contry. Instead we allowed these many tens of millions of Hispanics (often illegal immigrants) to enter and remain in our nation. Now it is time for us to accept that they are just not as intelligent as the liberal Boasian left-wing Whites would have wished that they could be. Now we have to realize that the Galtonians were correct after all, ethnic diversity in levels of innate intelligence is an unalterable fact of nature. So quit complaining and learn to live with the consequences. Posted by: rifraf | February 25, 2010 12:26 AM | Report abuse whisperonthewind:. ---------------------------------------- Sounds like your talents should be applied to parenting classes for the parents of these failing students. Posted by: ekorea | February 25, 2010 1:44 AM | Report abuse They should bring in as teachers Mr. Duncan, Ms. Rhee and any Representatives who lose elections this fall. The action by the school board is shameful scapegoating at its worst. Mr. Duncan, if he truly approved the action, should be willing, along with all other administration officials at his department to resign if there are not significant improvements in the nation's schools within four years. Fair right? Posted by: Aprogressiveindependent | February 25, 2010 2:00 AM | Report abuse That explains my experience in RI a few years back. As my friends and I traversed the state, we noted the large number of folks sitting on porches, not talking to one another. I always thought it was either indifference or extreme familiarity; turns out it was inability. Posted by: UncomfortableTruths | February 25, 2010 5:16 AM | Report abuse Thanks for this sensible piece. It's hard to understand how this school is going to get anyone to teach there. Posted by: clarkjerome | February 25, 2010 5:22 AM | Report abuse You had me until this paragraph: ." THERE results? For an article about education this is appalling. Posted by: nixxie71 | February 25, 2010 5:33 AM | Report abuse A school in my district went to zero based staffing. This meant that everyone at the school had to interview again. They only rehired about 7 staff members, everyone else was a new hire. The school is 80% ESOL and low income. The school day was extended and Saturday school was added. Staff was well compensated for the increased work load. The school has made a complete turn around and is often sighted as one of the best school's in the district. Posted by: 12345leavemealone | February 25, 2010 6:10 AM | Report abuse Living in the state of Georgia, I am quite surprised at how little homework my 10-year-old is assigned each week. Public schools are failing all across this nation. It is time to completely rethink how we teach our kids. Teacher unions are preventing this change from happening. Posted by: ahender1 | February 25, 2010 6:54 AM | Report abuse they will go out and find companies that provide bilingual teachers... and they will find them... Posted by: DwightCollins | February 25, 2010 7:01 AM | Report abuse I asked my wife (reading teacher k-2) what was the biggest reason kids struggle to read. She said it was due to kids coming to school in kindergarten with few reading skills, ie not being able to recognize any letters, not having been read to, etc. Yes, they can teach them that stuff but for some, they never catch up and they usually don't get much extra support at home. Posted by: rjma1 | February 25, 2010 7:37 AM | Report abuse Additionally: I’d love to know how affluent schools in the suburbs manage to produce students who score high enough on standardized tests to be on par with the top scoring nations in the world while having teachers; that are unionized, who aren’t subjected to “more rigorous” evaluations, who work a 7 ½ hour day, who don’t attend 2 week summer training sessions, and aren’t forced to eat lunch with their students. So the difference must be something else, let’s try for: 1) Safe, clean, and modern schools 2) Access to technology 3) Access to meaningful field trips and frequent non-school based after school and summer learning opportunities 4) Stable homes and crime free neighborhoods 5) Access to quality nutrition, health, dental, and vision care 6) Teachers with small enough classes and enough free time in the school day to plan, implement, and evaluate meaningful learning activities Until you get ALL students access to the above items, you’ll have the type of school achievement gaps that exists today. Students live in a society that tolerates and promotes such heavy inequality in every aspect of live. It should not come as a shock that school achievement reflects the type of society in which it is based. Posted by: Mostel26 | February 25, 2010 8:42 AM | Report abuse The wholesale firing of an entire school’s staff is a complete and total mistake. No doubt in almost any school, or any place of work for that matter, there are some employees that need to be fired from their job due to a variety of reasons. Good luck trying to staff an entire high school with a totally new staff. I wonder what that will do for classroom behavior and management. A few comments for the “free market” school approach gang: 1) The public school system exists to offer an educational opportunity to all students. Should schools perform an IQ check prior to admitting a student like a bank would perform a credit check prior to issuing a loan? 2) Output is a result of input. No rational human being would expect an inner-city AIDS hospice to have the same health outcomes for patients as a Beverly Hills cosmetic surgery clinic? But aren’t they both medical facilities? Sadly the American school system deals with this level of disparity in terms of who walks in the door every day. 3) The business world is horrible example of responsibility in terms of holding people accountable for results. How many financial firms bailed out by TARP still received bonuses, let alone maintaining their employment? These fools and their suspect approaches to finance caused a worldwide economic meltdown. No critic of our schools could remotely claim the same type of impact. Posted by: Mostel26 | February 25, 2010 8:44 AM | Report abuse Amk19 mentions 6 additional duties that were requested. My comments on those: a) 25 minute school day extension: To be used for what? How long is the current day? Additional time doing the same activities as part of the administration’s education program isn’t likely to accomplish anything of worth. b) A rotating schedule of before and after school tutoring: In what subject areas? In addition to what existing time commitments by staff? How long in duration? Extra tutoring time by the same existing staff doesn’t necessarily translate to better results. At some point the same teacher begins to sound like the adults in a Charlie Brown cartoon to the average teenager. Possibly the school should look into hiring additional para-professional staff to provide tutoring opportunities before, during, and after school. c) Eating lunch with students once a week: In order to accomplish what? When does the educator receive a lunch break on that day? A lunch break is a reasonable and healthy expectation for any human being. Having to monitor students in not a break d) Submitting to more rigorous evaluations: Designed how and measuring what? What administrative time would be devoted to this process as opposed to other tasks such as opposed to dealing directly with students? What would be the improvement avenues for staff members who perform below satisfactory on this new evaluation? e) Attending weekly after school sessions for group planning: How long after school? With what other members of the staff? It is fully possible to staff a school in a way to arrange for this common planning time during the existing school day. f) Participation in two weeks of training in the summer: In order to learn how to do what? There are already 7 or so days of professional development on the calendar for most teachers. How are those being used already? Could that time be reorganized in a way to accomplish training? Posted by: Mostel26 | February 25, 2010 8:45 AM | Report abuse Politiciansareignorant: "Who do YOU know of that willing to work extra hours WITHOUT COMPENSATION???" ANSWER: All professionals and other people on a salary work extra hours without compensation. That is the main difference between a professional and a laborer. Teachers need to decide which they are. They demand to be treated as professionals, and then they turn around and want a union (what else are the teachers' organizations?) and to be compensated for every moment they spend working, just like factory workers. Make up your minds. Also, something else to think about: I recently was talking to a college official whose job is to review proposals for research. She told me that she rarely gets a proposal from the school of education that can be understood--education students, she says, simply can't read and write. So they are supposed to teach our kids to read and write? Posted by: sideswiththekids | February 25, 2010 9:20 AM | Report abuse In what capacity are teachers treated like professionals EXCEPT in the way we are paid? We have a rigid structure informing us of where we need to be and what we need to be doing every hour of our working day. Posted by: someguy100 | February 25, 2010 9:41 AM | Report abuse Mostel26, AMEN. The big question not being asked is why and how. Why the need for these extra things? How will they increased the math rate and graduation rate? Why are the math scores so low? Why are the reading scores in the middle for similar schools in the state and better that HOPE charter? How did the students come into the school at a high level (from middle and elementary) and drop sop much in high school? Posted by: edlharris | February 25, 2010 10:17 AM | Report abuse Hoorah for Rhode Island! Stand up to public sector unions for the sake of the children and taxpayers!! Posted by: millionea7 | February 25, 2010 10:54 AM | Report abuse 12345leavemealone - please tell us the name of your successful turnaround school - I'd like to check it out. Thanks Posted by: efavorite | February 25, 2010 10:59 AM | Report abuse They did this because about half of the school’s students graduate, and only 7 percent of 11th-graders were proficient in math in 2009." Sorry, but if only SEVEN PERCENT of 11th graders are found to be proficient in math, drastic action does indeed need to be taken. The kids clearly aren't receiving much of an education, for whatever reason(s), so they need to start from scratch. Otherwise, they're just turning the overwhelming majority of kids out into the real world a short year later without the skills needed to do basic jobs. As for teachers being 'professionals', I agree with the comment by sideswiththekids. Every salaried professional I know, myself included, worked the hours it took to get the job done. It's what being a professional means. If they don't want to do the professional job of teaching, then find another line of employment. Posted by: raynecloud | February 25, 2010 11:32 AM | Report abuse Just for fun--let's give all teachers the same competency tests the students take. First, you would find most of the teachers cannot pass all the subjects--no one bothers about subjects they aren't involved with once they are out of school, but we worry if the students don't achieve high scores in every single field. Second, I guarantee at least one teacher is going to score below the competency level his or her own subject--in my state, at least, there is no requirement that high school teachers have even taken courses in the subjects they teach, let alone major in them. And as long as schools have to reduce their forces by seniority instead of academic credentials, you will end up with a history teacher with 5 years experience being dismissed and a math teacher with 25 years experience agreeing to take over the history classes just to stay employed. Posted by: sideswiththekids | February 25, 2010 1:03 PM | Report abuse Arne Duncan and others don't seem to understand that what happens to a child outside of the classroom, at home and in their neighborhood, is as critical if not more so than what happens in the classroom. If the answer to the problem was firing teachers, that would have been done long ago. Unfortunately in this ed reform atmosphere, the teachers have become the scapegoats. Posted by: dorainseattle | February 25, 2010 7:10 PM | Report abuse I took a look at the RI standardized test results for Central Falls and noticed some interesting things. For one, while 7% of CF students were proficient in math last year, only 28% of all RI students were. That seems pretty shockingly low. Is something up with the test? Still, nobody can say that 7% is an impressive score, even if that percentage did double over two years. I also looked at Reading and Writing. Also not good, but the CF average Reading scaled score was 1140 while the state average was 1146; 56% tested proficient or advanced, while statewide that number was 73%. In Writing CF was also behind the state, by 35% to 55%, but the average CF raw scores seem to have increased pretty significantly (4.9 to 5.8 over two years, while the state averages were at 5.7 in 2006-07 before rising to 6.7 last year). Let me preface the following paragraph with this disclaimer: I don't believe that state test numbers should play a role in teacher rewards or termination. That said, these numbers, while decidedly unimpressive, are not too far out of line with what one would expect for a low SES district when compared to a state average. In PA, a quick look at last year's results reveals a number of low-SES schools that perform at less than half of the average proficiency rate for the state as a whole. Something else is at work here, and decontextualized test scores seem to have been placed in the forefront as a propaganda tool. Talk about the horrors of "one-size-fits-all": treating every teacher in the school to the axe seems utterly disproportionate...suitable for an act of political grandstanding, perhaps. Or union-busting. Where is CF going to find solid teachers to come apply to work under what appearances suggest might be a very heavy-handed administration, while there is a shortage of teachers in urban districts nationwide? Do you seriously think any teacher with experience -- and experience does matter -- will leave another school to go there? I sincerely wish those children and their parents good luck. Posted by: carlrosin | February 26, 2010 12:39 AM | Report abuse When this recession is over and all the baby boomers retire, I hope teachers everywhere will remember the name Central Falls, Rhode Island. Posted by: Linda/RetiredTeacher | February 26, 2010 12:43 AM | Report abuse This policy of firing teachers is beneath contempt. You think you are going to get quality teachers to even bother to apply to such jobs under such circumstances? Does anyone think a good teacher is going to quit his job at a good school and go teach in one of these underperforming schools? Does anyone think that good teachers are willfully failing these kids and simply want a cushy job with a lot of time off? As one of those fired teachers I say shame on Arne Duncan and on the President who chooses to frame the reform of education in these terms. Teachers of inner city schools have enough problems just getting their lessons together and grading papers without also having to run the gauntlet of administrators and parents and children taking pot shots at them. It is a thankless task with a lot of stress. I challenge any of these federal or state know it alls to try teaching for even a month in such schools and still believe the ridiculous nonsense that is going down in public education today. Posted by: MichaelSteele | March 1, 2010 11:22 AM | Report abuse Definitely some information left out here. No mention of the initial (preferred) plan that was rejected by the teachers? That seems pretty important to the whole story, doesn’t it? Furthermore, the school is permitted to re-hire half of the teachers. “Not one of them was good enough to stay.” “Now, all they have to do is find 93 excellent professionals to take their places.” These statements are not true and I imagine (if you did any research) that you already know this. When has anyone said that this was all about the adults at the high school? When did they say elementary and middle school education was not a problem? When did they say that factors at home don’t influence how a kid does in school? You say that the students are going to suffer. Were they not suffering under the current system? Half didn’t graduate from high school! Only one in ten is proficient in math! Let’s see how the reform works before passing judgments. If we are going to report on the reform, don’t omit obviously important information. If you have a character limit, try leaving out the parts about folks crying. Posted by: unserc | March 1, 2010 1:37 PM | Report abuse The comments to this entry are closed. I'd like to see who they end up hiring. Will they hold out and wait for those "excellent professionals," or settle for whoever can fill the classroom? And what, exactly, is the motivation for the current staff to do ANYTHING between now and the end of the year?

Democracy Fight for Your Democracy Feedback The "Office of profit": A tool for Executive to control the Legislators The “Office of profit”: A tool for stamp vendor or deed writer, a share holder in a Executive to control the Legislators company transporting postal articles and mail bags By Dr. Madabhushi Sridhar, Professor, NALSAR do not hold any office and not disqualified. In University of Law, Hyderabad. Ravanna Subbanna v Kaggeerappa , a member of Jaya Bachchan’s disqualification, the Union government appointed committee, who draws Government’s proposed Ordinance to save sitting fees to meet his out of pocket expenses some MPs, the opposition’s hue and cry that to attend committee meetings does not hold an the ordinance was to save Mrs Sonia Gandhi, and office of profit, as what is paid to him is not by strategic resignation of the later to disarm the way of profit but by only as a compensation. opposition and remove the sting in their attack led Ramakrishna Hegde Case to a very serious controversy over the offices, In Ramakrishna Hegde v State of Karnataka , their profits, and the control of the government Hegde was a member of Karnataka Assembly. over them. He was appointed as Deputy Chairman of the As the dust of politics settled, it is time now to Planning Commission. He did not draw any salary look at the concerted effort to amend the law to but only allowances like traveling allowance, daily facilitate double offices of profit. There is a need allowance, conveyance allowance, house rent to examine the impact of such amendments to allowance, etc., The High Court ruled that it would remove the disqualification. not disqualify him. There is an enactment in Articles 102 and 191 of the Constitution were Karnataka, Karnataka Legislature (Prevention of originally aimed at securing total independence to Disqualification) Act, 1956 which exempts this post legislative members and that is why the holding of from being considered as ‘office of an office of profit under government is prescribed profit’. Parliament and Legislatures are having as an operative disqualification. Only to deal with power, according to Article 102 and 191, to some emergency complex situations the articles declare certain posts as not to be considered as provided for declaration of some posts as not ‘office of profit’. The Parliament office of profits under government by way of a (Prevention of Disqualification) Act, 1959 declared law. Now all the political parties might agree to the offices which are listed therein are not totally dilute the principle of office of profit as a ‘offices of profit’. The purpose of this disqualification and permit a huge list to be added disqualification is to avoid conflict between duty to Parliament Members (Removal of and interest. The legislators should be free from Disqualification) Act 1959. This is totally against the any interest when they are performing the duty spirit of democratic constitutionalism, which thrives as legislator and representative of people. on strict separation of legislature and executive. Tests for determining whether an office is an The government is responsible and accountable to ‘office of profit’ under government are the legislature. The representatives of the people as follows: i) whether the government makes in their capacity as members of legislature have appointment ii) whether the government has the right, powers and duty to question the right to remove or dismiss the holder of office iii) government without any fear or favour. The whether the government pays remuneration iv) responsibility of Government to Legislature and whether the functions performed by the holder duty of legislator to question the government will are carried on by him for the government and v) be diluted if the member is ‘under the control whether the government has control over the of Government’. The democratic duties and functions of the holder. constitutionalism intended to avoid these This means the money or salary is not the ‘controls’ on legislators. criteria at all to consider whether the In India there is, in fact, the line of separation is ‘office’ has any ‘profit’ attached very thin between executive and legislature. The to it or not. The Executive power, control of the Executive Government emerges out of and Government, power of government in appointing confines to the Legislature. The Council of or dismissing the office holder will make that an Ministers decide the legislative policy and run the office of profit. A government servant is House according to their needs under the disqualified to be a member of House. The ‘able’ guidance of ‘speaker’ who government servant should be relieved from is part and parcel of ruling political power base, in duties before he files nomination to avoid the spite of the oppositions ‘stock’ disqualification. oppositions to almost every thing proposed by In Joti Prasad v Kalka Prasad , it was held that a the Government. Though, for namesake, the Vice-chancellor of a University appointed by the power to move any bill is vested in each member Governor in his capacity as the Chancellor of the as ‘private member legislation’, it happens University does not hold an office of profit, as the very rarely. Most of the very important government had no power to appoint or remove legislations are not discussed and it would be him. A teacher in a government aided school does difficult to find ‘quorum’ needed for not hold an office under the government , for the accepting the bill. school, though under government’s control The Law of “Office of Profit” and supervision, still has its own separate Article 102 Disqualification for membership: (1) A personality, property and funds . person shall be disqualified for being chosen as, The emphasis should be on the nature of the and for being, a member of either House of post held and the possibility of conflict between Parliament, a member of either House of duty and interest of an elected member and to Parliament: a) If he holds any office of profit appreciate the same the test is whether the under the Government of India or the government has power to appoint or dismiss the Government of any State, other than an office employee who is being chosen as a legislator. declared by any State, other than an office AP Legislator’s Case declared by Parliament by law not to disqualify its In Satrucharla Chandrasekhara Raju v Vyricherla holder.b) if he is of unsound mind and stands so Pradeep Kumar Dev. , Satrucharla was a single declared by a competent court c) if he is an teacher in a primary school run by Integrated undischarged insolvent d) if he is not a citizen of Tribal Development Agency by its project officer India, or has voluntarily acquired the citizenship of who was the district collector. The ITDA is an Foreign State or is under any acknowledgment of registered society with Government control. He allegiance or adherence to a Foreign State. e) if he was suspended for some irregularities. Later he is so disqualified by or under any law made by was elected to Legislative Assembly of AP. High Parliament Court ruled that he held an office of profit and Explanation: 1. For the purposes of this clause, a disqualified, because the state government has person shall not be deemed to hold an office of total control over his post and position. Then the profit under the Government of India or the Supreme Court reversed the order and held that Government of any State by reason only that he it was not an office of profit, because the society is a Minister either for the Union or for such State. has the authority to appoint and remove. Though Explanation: 2: A person shall be disqualified for the government also has some power it was not being a member of either House of Parliament if a direct control over the teachers themselves he is so disqualified under the Tenth Schedule. under the scheme of ITDA. The right to appoint Article 191 is also similarly couched except for the and remove the holder of office in many cases difference that it would apply to Members of the becomes an important and decisive test. State legislative assemblies. These two If you apply this provision in a strict and narrow explanations were amended by 52nd Amendment construction, it will amount to preventing many to the Constitution in 1985, restricting the prominent and other eligible persons to contest application of this explanation to this article only. the elections which forms the fundamental basis The Constitution did not define the term for the democracy. ‘office of profit’. It is for the judiciary to There may be further disqualification under any interpret what is an office of profit and what is other law, besides the Constitution. The not depending upon the practical situations of each Representation of People Act debars a person, and every case. who holds the office of a managing agent An office of profit ordinarily means an manager or secretary of a company or ‘office’ capable of yielding some profit to corporation in the capital of which the government the holder of the office. The disqualification arises holds not less than 25% share, from being chosen when a person: a) holds an office; b) the office as a member of the Legislature to which the under the Central and State Government; and c) Government is responsible. the office is one of profit. Suppose a person Jaya Bachchan’s Office and the Control of makes profit but does not hold an office, he is Government The Presidents decision to disqualify not disqualified. The Constitution also uses `office Samajwadi Party MP Jaya Bachchan on a petition of profit' at several Articles besides Articles 102, by a Congress activist who sought her 191. Article 18, on `Abolition of titles'. Clause (3) disqualification on the ground that she was stipulates that no person who is not a citizen of Chairperson of the UP Film Development Council, India shall, while he holds any office of profit or an office of profit kicked off the debate. The trust under the State, accept without the consent President has issued such an order on the of the President any title from any foreign State. recommendation of the Election Commission, who And Clause (4) says, "No person holding any is authorized to receive complaints and office of profit or trust under the State shall, recommend the action as per the law. When without the consent of the President, accept any Election Commission examines the complaint, it present, emolument, or office of any kind from has to depend upon the judicial decisions to or under any foreign State." The next set of interpret the character of office, profit and occurrences is in Article 58, on `Qualifications for control of the government. On its election as President'. While the first Clause in this recommendation the President has to act upon. Article has a bunch of three conditions — "is a Prior to her election, she had resigned from the citizen of India, has completed the age of post of Uttar Pradesh Film Development thirty-five years, and is qualified for election as a Corporation. However, after the election she member of the House of the People," the second assumed the charge as chairperson of UPFDC on Clause reads, "A person shall not be eligible for July 14, 2004. In deciding the Bachchan case, the election as President if he holds any office of Commission cited the rulings of the Supreme profit under the Government of India or the Court that five tests would determine whether an Government of any State or under any local or office is an office of profit under the government. other authority subject to the control of any of They are whether the government makes the the said Governments." No Disqualification appointment, whether the government has the Explanation at the end of the Article clarifies what right to remove or dismiss the holder, whether is not a disqualification: "A person shall not be the government pays remuneration, what the deemed to hold any office of profit by reason functions of the holder or does s/he perform only that he is the President or Vice-President of them for the government and whether the the Union or the Governor of any State or is a government exercises any control over the Minister either for the Union or for any State." performance of these functions. The Apex Court Article 59 on `Conditions of President's office' has also held that all these tests need not coexist says, "The President shall not hold any other conjointly for determining whether a post is an office of profit." Similar taboo applies to the office of profit under the government. It is the Vice-President too, in Article 64, and the circumstances that have to be looked at and not Governor, in Article 158. What is of immediate the form. On the basis of documents and interest should be Article 102 on `Disqualifications pleadings, the Commission noted that Mrs. for membership'. It declares that a person shall be Bachchan was entitled to a daily allowance while disqualified for being chosen as, and for being, a traveling inside and outside UP and was entitled to member of either House of Parliament "if he holds a chauffeur driven car, free accommodation in any office of profit under the Government of state government guest houses and local India or the Government of any State, other than hospitality on tour. The daily allowance of Rs 600 an office declared by Parliament by law not to inside UP was considered a source of profit to the disqualify its holder; if he is of unsound mind... " incumbent. It did not buy the argument that The phrase `office of profit under the Bachchan was an affluent person and the benefits Government' occurring in Article 102 has not been granted to her by the government were defined in the Constitution or any other statute of immaterial. "The issue is one of law and not the Parliament. "Its scope and ambit have, therefore, financial status or standing of the person to be gathered from the pronouncements of appointed to the office of profit under the courts and other competent authorities," notes government," the Commission held and came to the site and lists four criteria that are generally the opinion that she became disqualified under the followed when deciding disqualification questions. Constitution. The Role of Election Commission The Manipur Law For example, the Manipur (Hill Areas) Election Commission, which is now flooded with District Councils Act, 1971, states that a person several complaints against sitting legislators for shall be disqualified for being chosen as a member holding ‘office of profit’ has taken notice of a District Council "if he is for the time being of the petitions received against 10 CPI(M) MPs, disqualified for being chosen as a member of including the Speaker, and others and in most of either House of Parliament or holds any office of the cases it has sought more information from profit under any District Council." The Companies the petitions because "details were lacking". It is Act, 1956 speaks of `office or place of profit'. reported that the Election Commission has asked Section 204(5) explains that any office or place in the petitioners including Mukul Roy of the a company shall be deemed to be an office or Trinamool Congress to give details like the date of place of profit under the company "if the person appointment of the MPs to the office said to be holding it obtains from the company anything by held by them along with documentary evidence to way of remuneration, whether as salary, fees, substantiate their contention that they were commission, perquisite, the right to occupy free offices of profit. The Commission’s jurisdiction of rent any premises as a place of residence." will come into force when an MP or MLA Universal Democratic Concept This is a becomes a subject of disqualification only if he is democratic concept which has universal relevance appointed to the post after he becomes a in almost all democratic countries governed by the member of the House. In case, the MP or MLA Constitution. For instance, Article 35 of the US had been appointed before his election, then a Constitution mentions the phrase. It is explained, complaint could only lie in the form of an election as "An office to which fees, a salary or other petition in the High Court, which is also bound by compensation is attached, is ordinarily an office of law of limitation. However it is the duty of the profit". In Moser vs Board of County Comm'rs, a Election Commission and its officers to look into four-decade-old US case, the Article was the nominations and study whether they hold any explained: "The amount received is immaterial post, which would disqualify them for contesting since it is the presumably adequate compensation elections. Since it is constitutionally prescribed derived from the office that fixes the character disqualification and strikes at the root of the of the office as one of profit." From Down Under validity of membership, the election officials need is the Parliamentary Members (Office of Profit) to check whether a particular contestant holds Amendment Act, 1959. It was brought in to any such office under government. It is also the amend the Legislative Assembly Act 1867 and duty of people in general and rivals in particular to the Officials in Parliament Act 1896 . , as one bring such a fact to the notice of returning learns from "A member is not to be taken to be officers. An employee cannot contest. The entitled to a fee or reward if the member resignation, acceptance and due relieving orders irrevocably waives for all legal purposes the are insisted upon as basic requirements to entitlement to the fee or reward," it says. It is contest. Why not the office of profit as clarified that `fee or other reward' does not ‘disqualification’ should not be looked into? include "reasonable expenses actually incurred by Jharkhand Dilemma or for the member for any one or more of the A big chunk of Jharkhand MLAs were facing the following — accommodation; meals; domestic problem of disqualification, but heaved a sigh of air travel; taxi fares or public transport charges; relief when on March 24, 2006 the Assembly and motor vehicle hire." Every office of profit will passed a Bill to protect them. At least 19 not operate as disqualification. It should be an Jharkhand MLAs keeping their fingers crossed office, of profit and then be ‘under ever since their names were referred to Chief government’ to disqualify a member of Election Commissioner BB Tandon for "holding legislative house either at Center or States. These offices of profit". Earlier the State Advocate three aspects have come up for decision before General claimed that all the members of the apex court. Assembly were shielded by a 1950 Act of Sibu Soren and “under the Government” undivided Bihar. "Section 84 of the Bihar State The expression ‘under government’ is Reorganisation Act, 2000 mentions that all Acts explained in Sibu Soren case: “with regard to enacted before creation of Jharkhand shall be the "office of profit", what needed to be found applicable to the new State, and under Section 85 was, if the amount received by the person it gives the option for modification of any Act concerned from the office he/she holds provides adopted by Bihar," according to the Advocate some pecuniary gain, other than the General. The 1950 Act exempted the office of compensation to defray him/her out of pocket the chairman or member of any committee or expenses.” The Supreme Court set aside the body appointed by the Central or a State election of Mr. Shibu Soren, Jharkhand Mukti Government. The Bihar Legislature (Removal of Morcha (S) leader to Rajya Sabha in June 1998, Disqualifications) Act of 1950 stipulated that on the ground that he was holding ``an office of holders of certain offices shall not be disqualified profit' under the State Government as chairman for being chosen as, or for being, members of of the Interim Jharkhand Area Autonomous the Bihar Legislative Assembly or the Bihar Council (JAAC) set up under the JAAC Act, 1994 Legislative Council. But the big question is a at the time of his filing of his ``nomination papers' condition stated in the schedule in the Act. It and was thus disqualified to contest election to states, "a person shall not be (and shall be Rajya Sabha. Delivering the judgment, the then deemed never to have been) disqualified...Provided Chief Justice of India (CJI), Dr. A.S. Anand, on that the chairman or member of any committee close analysis of the relevant provisions of the or body does not receive any remuneration other JAAC Act 1994, noted that Mr. Shibu Soren was than compensatory allowance." The Act only appointed by the State Government as Chairman allows "travelling allowance, daily allowance, or any of the interim JAAC. He was to hold office ``at allowance in the shape of honorarium, which may the pleasure of the State Government' which be paid to the holder of the office for the ``had the right to remove or dismiss the holder of purpose of reimbursing the personal expenditure that office, besides controlling the manner of incurred by him in attending the meetings of the functioning of the Interim Council and providing committee or body or performing any other funds for the Interim Council out of which a functions as the holder of the said office." Senior honorarium of Rs. 1,750/- per month - (besides BJP leader and vice-chairman of the State Planning daily allowance, rent-free accommodation and a Commission Saryu Roy claimed that except for chauffeur driven car at the state expense) - was the Leader of the Opposition Sudhir Mahto, who is paid to the appellant,' the CJI observed adding among the 19 MLAs referred by Governor Syed that all this ``was a benefit capable of bringing Sibtey Razi to the CEC, "the remaining 18 about a conflict between the duty and interest of members are protected by the act as they are the appellant as a Member of Parliament - the either chairman or member of any committee or precise vice to which Article 102 (1)(a) is body". As they were not sure of this protection, attracted'. According to Article 102(1)(a) of the the Jharkhand Government decided to move a bill. Constitution - which deals with disqualifications to Like Uttar Pradesh the Jharkhand legislature also being chosen as and for being a member of either passed a law to protect their legislators without House of Parliament - (1) A person shall be losing the second ‘office’ amidst protests. disqualified for being chose as, and for being, a There was another similarity in opposing the Bill as Member of either House of Parliament - (a) if he they were intended to save the members of holds any office of profit under the Government ruling party. In the UP assembly when the of India or the Government of any State, other Mulayam Singh Yadav government passed a bill than an office declared by Parliament by law not aimed to protect SP leaders Jaya Bachchan and to disqualify its holder; The Bench, which included Amar Singh’s Rajya Sabha seats, there was Mr. Justice R.C. Lahoti and Mr. Justice Shivaraj V. a similar opposition. Amidst opposition uproar and Patil, affirmed a verdict of the Patna High Court pandemonium, the Arjun Munda government also which allowed an election petition from Mr. passed bill to save four NDA MLAs holding offices Dayanand Sahay against the election of the of profit. appellant to Rajya Sabha and, instead, declared Mr. Interestingly, the UP bill passed on March 9, 2006 Dayanand Sahay duly elected. The Bench, in is called the UP State Legislature (Prevention of dismissing an appeal from the appellant against the Disqualification Amendment) Bill 2006, whereas HC's verdict, said that ``both Articles 102(1)(a) and Jharkhand’s bill is called Jharkhand State Article 191(1)(a) of the Constitution were Legislate (Removal of Disqualification) Bill 2006. incorporated with a view to eliminate or in any The UP Bill exempts 79 posts The UP State event reduce the risk of conflict between duty Legislature (Prevention of Disqualification) Act, and interest amongst Members of the Legislature 1971, amendment bill introduced with so as to ensure that the concerned legislator does retrospective effect from January 1, 2003, which not come under an obligation of the Executive, on the assembly passed on March 9. It exempt account of receiving pecuniary gain or profit from heads of 79 corporation, boards and councils from it, which may render him amenable to influence of posts of profit. In the amendment, the the Executive, while discharging his obligations as a government has proposed that the term 'daily legislator.' (Article 191(1)(a) lays down similar allowances' be changed to 'honorarium' so that disqualifications for being chosen as or for being a parliamentarians can financially benefit from more Member of the Legislative Council or Assembly of than one office without attracting the provisions a State). Sibu Soren urged that even if the office of disqualification in the Act. Under the new bill, the held by him as Chairman of the Interim Council posts held by legislators in boards, corporations was to be construed as ``office of profit under and other such offices will be not be counted the State Government', the disqualification under the category of office of profit. A total of provided for under Article 102(1)(a) stood remove 22 posts have been included in the list, which will by Parliament (Prevention of Disqualification) Act, prevent the disqualification of any legislator. By 1959, since as Chairman of Interim Council, he passing this bill, the Government has not only enjoyed the `status' of a Minister. The argument saved the four legislators but the government was rightly repelled by the High Court observing itself, because it was having a wafer thin majority that nowhere in the JAAC Act was it provided in the house. While the UP Governor cleared four that the Chairman of the Interim JAA Council other bills, he decided to seek the opinion of legal enjoyed the status of a Minister, the Bench said. experts. Though the bill could not save the seat If the legislators hold office of profit under the of Jaya Bachchan in Rajya Sabha, it provides a government, they have to toe the line of perfect legal ground for other members who are government and cannot act independently. The similarly charged or the complaints against whom cabinet ministers, though members of the House, the Election Commission is considering. Consensus need to lead the house in securing consent to to amend the law The UPA Government initiated their measures, plans, programmes and budget the process to seek consensus to amend the law. allocations. They will defend every figure and The Government is considering whether to provision made by the Government. The amend the definition of office of profit under the Members, though belong to ruling party, are Parliament (Prevention of Disqualification) Act, expected to discuss the defects of the policy or 1959, or bring in a fresh Bill. Most of the parties the bills effectively and thus contribute to that Parliament and not the Election Commission unbiased legislation development. If the legislator is be given the right to determine what constitutes given an office of profit by the Government, he an office of profit, according to Mr. Dasmunsi, the would never talk against the pre-fixed policies and Union Minister who discussed with the parties. The never bother to know the difficulties flowing from Left parties favoured a comprehensive Bill before it to the people. This noble idea of keeping the Parliament. Abani Roy (RSP) favoured an all-party office of membership of legislative houses free meet. Even the main opposition BJP, and its allies from influences of profitable offices, is being used wanted the term ‘office of profit’ be as a political strategy to pull the legs of MPs on defined, which means giving exemptions. opposite side. Because some one pointed out the Impact of these Amendments office of profit of Jaya Bachchan, complaints These attempts of UPA Government at the against Sonia Gandhi, VK Malhotra, Somnath center to achieve consensus to amend the law to Chatterjee etc will naturally be generated. facilitate some MPs to hold additional office of Any government, especially the coalitions, attempt profit, indicates the climax of the trend of the to retain the legislators in their flock by offering governments to dilute the spirit of the them posts of corporation chairmen and public Constitution. Already Uttar Pradesh and Jharkhand sector political appointments such as member of made the laws permitting legislators to hold so and so board of directors, chairperson of a hundreds of offices of profit under the temple trust etc. These offices of profit under Government. If the Parliament also passes a law government are meant for silencing the dissidence carefully protecting all prominent members, every and satisfying the political colleague. This is the state will follow the suit and there will be spate of need of either side of politics in parliamentary legislations in states totally circumventing the democracy. Articles 102 and 191, which kills the independence Government under the Sonia, not Sonia’s of legislators and permits the executive to allure office under ‘government’ the MPs. All the political parties are generally in the The people who are the legal counsels of Mrs same situation as the Congress and Samajvadi Sonia Gandhi say, her position as Chairperson of Party are. Hence there would be unprecedented National Advisory Council could be an office and unity and consensus among all the parties to office of profit but definitely not “under the protected their political interests of present and government’ and hence she can not be future. The casualty is the spirit of the disqualified. The position is of cabinet rank, which constitution. The political parties, which pounced has several financial benefits and allowances from upon Jaya Bachchan and Sonia Gandhi, have no the government. It is true that the present moral status to reach an agreement to dilute this government it self is under the influence of Sonia constitutional ideal. Gandhi, and Sonia Gandhi as Chairperson of NAC Removal of every disqualification forms basis of not at all under the influence of concentration of power. It appears that the purity ‘government’. That is so because of her and independence of legislative membership is the unique position as the sole leader of congress target of every political party so that their people party duly inherited from Rajiv Gandhi and other enjoy more than one position without threat of illustrious personalities above the line. Any other ‘disqualification’. Generally it is commented person with the same rank would be definitely that politicians aim at next election while the under the influential power of executive statesmen work for next generation. Our government, which is objectionable under Article politicians’ aim is much narrowed down, as 102. Even if the law is amended and declare that they are interested in securing couple of power positions such as NAC chairperson are not offices centers to their members. of profit, the spirit to make legislator an The people who argue for reforms and independent uninfluenced and unbiased person, fails corruption-free-political-offices need to develop a miserably. Those who demanded disqualification of comprehensive vision. While a few talk about MPs for holding ‘double’ positions are horse-trading for hammering out a coalition out of eager to ‘define’ an ‘office of a hung house, some others discuss the cleansing profit’ and ‘declare’ some office of of legislatures by weeding out criminals. On one profit are not so. Because each party decorated hand the sting operations hit at bribe taking MPs their legislators with hundreds of plum positions in putting a total full stop for their political career, Government when they were in power. Congress and on the other, cabinet positions and party, naturally, stands on the top for having ruled corporation chairmen posts become the most the country for several decades, in appending offered allurements to switch the sides, in spite of offices of profit to its own party legislators to a stricter anti-defection law. The present keep the flock together or to nip the dissidence in controversy on office of profit is just one facet budding stage. of political corruption, which is totally in Judicial Decisions contradiction to the letter, and spirit of Judicial decisions are invariably protecting the constitutional governance. The Parliament politicians by interpreting the offices they held as Members (Removal of Disqualification) 1959 needs not offices of profit. It is a paradox that the no amendment. The expression ‘office of courts could caught the small fry like teachers, profit’ needs no definition as the judiciary has nurses or doctors getting elected to house while already explained the criteria where an office has holding that employment. Poor fellows ended up to be termed as an office of profit under losing both the employment and the membership government, If at all it is amended, the of legislature. There were lengthy litigations expression should be given the meaning which is initiated by politically disgruntled or defeated deliberated and concluded by the judgments. The elements using this noble provision for strategic list, which is, now existing under the 1959 law purposes. should not be expanded because it dilutes the In Yugal Kishar Sinha v Nagendra Prasad Yadav , spirit of separation of legislature from executive. it was held that a lawyer engaged by the Any attempt to exclude the corporation chairman Government to appear in a case on its behalf and positions and other public offices from the paid fees by it, is not holding any office of profit operation of disqualification would be and thus could not be disqualified. Similarly a unconstitutional and not justified. person holding a permit to ply buses, a licensed Articles The Senior in Senior... Capitalism - The Cause of... Local Politics, News... Getting Employee... Involvement of Mathematics... Survival and the Politics... The Vibrant Nature of... Immigration Update in View... Human Resources - The... Media Holds Sway Over... Henry David Thoreau - An... Can Ron Paul Win the 2008... Health Care Reform Cons The Political Humor of Will... | | Feedback | | Policy | TOS

Archives for the Month of October 2006 on Jeffrey Quick's Blog He's got Jesus now. Evidently shouting in public is a capital offence in Illinois: JERSEYVILLE, Illinois A teenager carrying a Bible and shouting "I want Jesus" was shot twice with a police stun gun and later died at a St. Louis hospital, authorities said. This seems to have been more a Not Followink Ze Orders problem than a police problem with rowdy Christians. But darned if I can see what the kid did to deserve being interfered with, let alone killed. Odd news to be printed on the eve of All Saints Day. City Club getting gamed The City Club of Cleveland is taking a look at its role in political debates after most candidates this year found a way to manipulate the format. Yes, packing the hall with your supporters and giving them prepared questions to ask isn't in the spirit of the thing. But... I do believe the City Club has held debates in which not all candidates were invited. If they've played bipartisan politics with nonpartisan debates, they are no better than Betty Sutton's supporters...or Case Western. It would be fairly easy to rein in spoiled brats like Blackwell and Strickland. Legitimate organizations like the City Club, League of Women Voters etc. should simply invite everyone on the ballot, and if a D or R takes a snit, let them stay home. If they want to organize their own political infomercial, let them use their own money. And let the press cover the DEBATES and not the INFOMERCIALS. All it would take is a few of the enabling organizations (in the 12-Step sense) to stand on principle, and the games would cease. West Virginians for the Byrd He uses two canes, and his hands shake. But even the kids like him because... "It's not that we deserve more money than other states, but if he wasn't there, we probably wouldn't get as much as we should," said Ally Hagsett, a Marshall University sophomore and Republican. "While he's alive, we'd better get as much as we can." ...he brings home the swag. At 88, it's about time for him to put on his robes of white. Again.. Union asks Canada Post to censor mail That's what it amounts to. And if the post office won't, its workers will. In a government monopoly, this labor action was totally illegetimate, as it constitutes de-facto censorship. Not that the Canadians have any problem with that; in the '70s listening to CBC, I used to marvel at mention of the "Ontario Board of Censors". But on the other hand, couldn't the religious loons who sent this mailing out have sprung for some envelopes? Sort of a "don't ask, don't tell" policy for anti-gay literature? Christopher Soghoian, American patriot A 24-year-old computer security student working on his doctorate at Indiana University Bloomington has created a Web site that allows anyone with an Internet connection and a printer to create and print fake boarding passes for Northwest Airlines flights. ." Naturally, the TSA doesn't agree. Nor do a whole hoast of bloviating opportunist politicians (but I repeat myself) like Edward Markey. Soghoian points out that Sen. Chuck Schumer (D-New York) publicized the same security hole in April 2006. "Perhaps Sen. Schumer will end up being my cellmate," Soghoian said. One could hope... The page is down, but Chris' homepage is here. Woman booted from jury for numerology This woman is a moonbat. And apparently, numerology was the least of her moonbattiness. But in this insane nation, doesn't a trial by a jury of your peers include wackos? Candidate sues with the wrong argument John J. Sullivan, independent candidate for lieutenant governor of Massachusetts, is suing CBS for not including him in the televised debate. Both sides are standing on the 1st Amendment. Much as I hate to say it, CBS is right here. Sullivan's free speech right doesn't include an obligation for CBS to provide him a soapbox. Their station, their rules, end of story. Bu this "bipartisan=nonpartisan" crap has to stop. I'd like to see CBS taken into court for making illegal campaign contributions in-kind to the Democrat and Republican. Of course, our campaign finance laws are ALSO a gross violation of the 1st Amendment, but as long as the courts continue to deny the obvious, we might as well use the law to our advantage. T ! Uncovered meat To the Muslim cleric in Australia who blamed the victim in some gang rapes: Not every animal likes the same kind of meat. And you don't wear a hijab. So it's your fault if Big Bruce has his way with you, isn't it? Save 'em, then send 'em back. A van full of illegals flipped in Texas: 1 dead, 20 injured. Before the anti-immigrant crowd starts frothing at the mouth about the costs of this tragedy, I want to say that the authorities handled this perfectly. They got people to the hospital ASAP. Human life is human life, and it needed to be saved, regardless of legal status. If I were in an accident in Mexico, I'd want emergency care. But there's one more thing to be done: once these patients are stable, they need to be life-flighted to the nearest Mexican hospital. That's what I'd want the Mexicans to do for me, if I were in that situation. Golden Rule and all.... Ballot language "counts" Speaking of proposals to rob smokers... Arizona has one on the ballot for early childhood education and health. It's 80 cents a pack, according to its supporters. But what it says in the ballot language is ".80 cents", i.e. 4/5 cent per pack. Their secretary of state says, "that's a highly technical reading". But the law IS technical, by nature. It was a technical reading by which Ken Blackwell disenfranchised the Libertarians in 2003, and folks like rightwingprof were telling me to suck it up, that Kenny was just doing his job by enforcing the law. Well, Clay, where do you stand on this? I say that if they can't even articulate how much they are going to steal, they don't deserve it, and if the voters think otherwise, then backers should come back to them for the other 79.2 cents. Worst part of the story is this leadoff by Mary Jo Pitzl (isn't that the diminutive of "putz"?) Early-childhood-education and health programs on next month's ballot could lose millions of dollars if a misplaced decimal point is interpreted technically. 'Scuse me, kids aren't going to lose ANYTHING, not even if this proposal fails. If it passes, they are going to get either .80 cents/pack or 80 cents/pack that they didn't have before. This is just another case of the assumption that "all your money belongs to us.". "I? Danish cartoon paper off the hook A Danish court dismissed the Muslim lawsuit against Jyllands-Posten over "those cartoons". The lawsuit said the cartoons depict Muhammad "as belligerent, oppressing women, criminal, crazy and unintelligent, and a connection is made between the Prophet and war and terror." Hmmm, maybe these organizations should be suing other Muslims. Some of them are making some pretty explicit connections between the Prophet and terror. Pervert poker "I'll see your child flasher and raise you a cokehead." Two more weeks! Will I live that long? Anyone notice that Bill Peirce doesn't have any opinions about whose staff is more twisted? And hasn't been engaged in negative campaigning?. Why polls are meaningless When "Hillary Clinton" is put up against McCain or Giuliani, she pulls different numbers than if "Hillary Rodham Clinton" is put up against the same names. Is the electorate really that stupid? Do they only have a 5-syllable attention span, so that they forget she was the Prevaricator-in-Chief's co-president? Does she sound more important or powerful with a longer name? Such? In Wishek ND, a renaissance 6% of the high school students play accordion, which is taught in school. Wunnerful, wunner. Smoking gun? The tiresome Jerome Corsi has announced the "smoking gun" in the Strickland non-scandal: the arrest records for Strickland's former campaign manager. Yeah, so? Yed was either guilty of bleeding-heart liberalism for keeping him on, or of cowardice in not dealing with it forthrightly. And if either of those were an impediment to high office, well, this would be a far different country than it is. Enough already. Second. Modest. The? Rallying the troops to plunder the poor I came to work to find a rally for Issue 18 (the proposal to rob the poor to pay for the art of the rich) happening on the front lawn of Severence Hall. Yeah, like that's really going to make me contribute to the orchestra. They had some guy on stilts almost falling into traffic. A woman waved her sign at me; I waved a finger back. Gee, I wish I still lived in town, just so I could vote no. Maybe I can cast Harry Quick's vote. :-) "But this isn't a tax on poor people, it's a tax on smokers. And smokers can change their behavior." Well, so you say. I'm married to a smoker. She's tried to change her behavior several times since she's been with me, and failed...and she's a fairly competent person. And poverty largely comes from bad choices in life (including smoking)...which can be changed. So why don't the poor just change their behavior? Really, I don't see how one can be a socialist (as most artists are, philosophically) and support Issue 18 at the same time. It clearly focuses on a habit associated with the poor, and taxes it to benefit the well-off. It's not like we're going to have free concerts by major rappers in Cleveland. And we're not taxing, oh, any wine with a cork in the bottle. That would make way too much sense. But in a further outrage: Backers of Issue 18 filed a formal complaint on Tuesday with the Ohio Elections Commission against tobacco company Philip Morris USA and Lorain County resident Gerard Seman, registrant of the Web site. I've known Garry Seman for years, and he wouldn't take money from Big Tobacco. I'd certainly like to see the evidence they've invented. I guess it's just inconceivable that somebody would oppose their little shakedown on the basis of principle. Well, guys: I'm writing this on a computer and server owned by a University Circle institution, who are not responsible for the content of this message. I am. Now, do you have the stones to go after a fellow practicing artist -- a composer and performer -- for campaigning against you? Ge. Black. Janet Reno, "champion of justice" From Balko, news that the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers gave Jackboot Janet an award and a standing O.. I wanna barf. Amicus meus Amicus meus comes before "Judas mercator" (my last podcast) in the Responsoria cycle. Again, from the Mac concert. AP plays partisan politics Three web pages on the race for DeLay's old seat, with many mentions of "the hyphen lady" (Shelley Sekula-Gibbs), who is a write-in candidate. The name conspicuous by its absence? Bob Smither, the other ballot-qualified candidate, who is polling at 25%. So much for objective reporting. Another national socialist Cult of the supreme leader? check. Belief in racial superiority, with killing of members of other races? check Forced eugenics, euthanizing of the handicapped? check. Militarism, desire for territorial expansion? check. Adolf Hitler? Try Kim Jong-il. And what was that about fascism being the opposite of communism? Foleyating Strickland 2 World Net Daily is still at it. Pullins insisted he doesn't "give a hoot about how the Stricklands live their private lives." "But what I do find interesting," he said, "is the whisper campaign that has been going on behind the scenes for months and the efforts by liberals and some conservatives to shut down any discussion of the issue." In other words, "Have you stopped beating your wife yet?" Come on guys, show me the stained blue dress, and I will believe. Otherwise, you're only making yourselves look bad. Food stamps in 4 hours Orange County leads in providing "services" to illegals. And of course, as always, it's "for the chillllldrennnn" "The Mexican man is macho. He doesn't want to come to this country and beg," said Alfonso Chavez, the Community Action Partnership's outreach coordinator. "I tell them this is a program that will help the children. The kids are American-born, and they have a right to this program." So there's now a "right" to the fruit of somebody else's labor? Let's party like it's 1861!? The brass risk their ... The assistant defense secretary for homeland defense has to go to war: WASHINGTON (AP) — Paul McHale, a top civilian Pentagon official and a former congressman, has been recalled to active duty as a Marine reservist and will be sent to Afghanistan, The Associated Press has learned. Well, he's been there and knows what it's about, so this is kind of a waste, when there are folks in Dee Cee more deserving of a Mideastern vacation. But it's a positive trend; let's not stop now.. Cincy-area kids won't get their hides tanned? Hamilton Co. has decided that they don't have the authority to ban teens from using tanning beds without a doctor's prescription. So they want the STATE to do it. Funny, as a child I lived in the Goddess' tanning salon (the beach) and haven't had skin cancer yet. That may be the difference between artificial and natural. Or it might be that the epidemic of skin cancer that caused California to pass a similar law is caused by something else...malnutrition maybe? RIP Keith Donat I just heard via email that libertarian activist Keith Donat died yesterday in an accident at his place of employment, at the age of 32. I didn't know Keith well. My most protracted contact came from a time when he, David Macko and I were all serving on State Central Committee, and we'd ride to Columbus together for meetings. He was one of those guys who had come into the LP from the Left, and Macko is a rightist, so trips were filled with loud heated discussions of matters such as abortion, where I could barely get a word in (even if there'd been space to think)...and I am not easy to silence. And there was Dave's contempt for Keith's nicotine addiction, and the stops it required. After awhile, I began to invent excuses to drive by myself. It may look like you're in a 6 x 3 dungeon, Keith, but I'm convinced that you're free at last. Bureau of Adults Teaching Filmmaking I don't know what offends me more: that ex-BATF Director Carl J. Truscott ordered staffers to help his nephew with his high school homework, or that the homework was a documentary propaganda film about the BATF. Not that I have a problem with ATF frittering away funds that could be used to persecute gun owners, mind you. But it always seems like the well is bottomless. CAIR. Frank begs: take the ciggie out of your neighbor's mouth Mayor Frank is coming out against the right of private property smoking in bars, and in favor of Issue 5. I have to wonder how folks in the old 'hood view this, seeing as how smoking tends to correlate to poverty. I thought we'd fired Cleveland's nanny when we got rid of Queen Jane. I'm just glad I don't work for the Cleveland Clinic. Those guys are going to get propagandized big time in the next month. The naked civil servant This is certainly odd behavior. But tell me, if it was after hours and nobody but the all-seeing spycam saw him, what makes it "public indecency"? Foleyating Strickland Today's bit of poo-flinging comes from WorldNetDaily, citing Bizzyblog. Evidently Ted "'Fraid chicken" Strickland was one of only 13 congresscritters to vote "present" on a 1999 resolution condemming an APA paper supportive of pedophilia. His reason, as expressed in a one minute speech, was that the House was incompetent to critique the methodology of the study. That is certainly true, and a laudable point to make. But if Ted had refrained from voting on every law requiring technical knowledge he did not have, he would have amassed such a libertarian record that I would have no qualms about supporting him for governor. That's pretty obviously not the case; it's not how Congress works. And I also understand why Ted didn't make a principled stand and vote "NO". The questions being debated are "Why did Ted vote that way?" and "What does it say about him?" Strickland's wife is a psychologist (I believe he is also), and he may have felt an impulse to protect the profession. And Ted is a former minister and a Christian man after the manner of Jimmy Carter. Whether you want somebody who is afraid of making judgements and is under his wife's thumb to run Ohio is a fair question; personally, I think we've had enough of that with Bob Taft. But that's not where WND wants to take this. They're mostly spinning dirt that Brian Flannery had dug up for the primary. Ted had hired a staffer who had previously flashed some children. Either he didn't do a thorough background check, or decided it wasn't relevant to the job. And Ted went to Italy with this man...oh my, bunghole buddies for sure! Never mind that it was a trip that all the staffers were to make, but in the event only one could go. Was Ted to cancel? What if he'd gone with a woman-not-his-wife? It seems that the only way that trip couldn't be spun sexually is if he would have brought a child....uh, no, scratch that... Then there's the "firestorm among Ohio bloggers", with only Bizzyblog being cited. BB is fairly reasonable about this; his points are that Foleygate and its accompanying Democratic hypocrisy make this fair game, and that Strickland has tried his best to not reveal any opinion or platform during this campaign, so that any information on his character is relevant. And the conclusions he draws are general character conclusions. He does not imply that Strickland is a pedophile. WND, on the other hand, wants to leave you with that impression without saying it. This didn't stick when Flannery said it; it's not going to stick now. I really hate watching desperate politicians and their media shills. And I especially hate politicians which are so devoid of ideas and principles that the only way to discriminate between the fungible product is smear black over it. Play fair, or don't play at all. Vote third-party -- ANY third-party -- or stay home. Screw them all!. Winston Churchill's great-grandson... ...continues the fight against tyranny, and may pay the penultimate price. May the Gods bless this hero of Australian capitalism.. Beck.. Peirce campaign disses League of Women Voters They caught one of Blackwell's toadies on video claiming that it is "federal law" that debate participants have at least 15% poll support. They were quite right to nail that; it has only applied to Presidential debates, it is not "law", and it shows that Blackwell supporters have not-a-clue about that thing called Federalism (i.e., Ohio has the right and power to run its state elections as it sees fit, even including charging a poll tax to vote for governor). But, contrary to the panel in the youtube show, it has been many years since the League of Women Voters ran the Presidential debates, as the LWV would not rig their debates in the Duopoly's favor, and the Duopoly would not play otherwise (somewhat like the current situation in Ohio). The 15% rule is the creation of the Bipartisan Debate Commission, which took over from the LWV. "Bipartisan" of course is not "nonpartisan". All it would take to change the 15% rule would be for a Duopoly candidate to refuse to play by it. This will never happen. It's too bad the Peirce video had that error in it. But it's understandable, and not nearly as horrible as this little Blackwelloid stunt: On a side note that’s just funny, while we were driving down to Cinci from Cleveland, we happened to get passed by one of Blackwell’s SUVs carrying what looked like his campaign manager. We paced them for long enough for me to lean towards the window and flap my arms like a chicken. The next thing I know, they actually were stupid enough to pull behind us and turn on the flashing blue lights (who knew the Secretary of State had such perks?). Of course, they quickly turned them off and sped past us while glaring out their windows. I think the multiple Peirce stickers might have been a clue that abuse of power would have been a really stupid idea. What would the bust be for? Terrorism? Dangerous driving? Playing chicken on a freeway? Judas mercator pessimus The Friday Podcast is a bit from the Mac concert...a sick little bit of modal disco for the "commercial apostle.". "You. Senator Quisling (R-PA) Mano Singham digs up a particularly damning fact:." This is not just "craven behavior and buck passing". It is evidence of perjury, which is grounds for impeachment (at least it was 7 years ago). This text might sound vaguely familiar to Spect Specter voted for a bill, knowing that it was "patently unconstitutional on its face", then he clearly did not "support and defend the Constitution" or bear "true faith and allegiance" to it. While not meeting the Constitutional standard for treason, it shows clear contempt for our system of government and the American people. And this is the man Bush supported over his primary challenger, so he also bears a measure of guilt. This same way of (not) thinking brought us McCain-Feingold, which is also "patently unconstitutional" (the Supreme Court be damned). Prices too low? Have a coup! "Progressives" in their war against Wal-Mart have missed out on an effective technique: infiltrate the military, have it take over the country, and then force Wal-mart to raise its prices by threatening to jail top executives. It worked in Thailand, anyway. Blackwell plays the race card Holding his hand almost in Strickland's face, Blackwell said: "Take a look at the color of my skin. There would be very few people of this color if the instinct of the slave that was brutally attacked, the slave woman, was to kill the baby." Is he saying that black slave women were prone to infanticide? That's not necessarily racist; in that situation I might kill my kids as an act of mercy. But it sure sounds funny. I suspect that seldom happened, because the slaveowners (who had a vested financial interest in the survival of that baby) would make life rough (and maybe even short) for the slave who wouldn't breed. Sort of like what Blackwell would do to modern citizens slaves who want to kill their fetuses babies. Chicken? Open season on the Constitution begins today Because of the holiday, the holiest on the Jewish calendar, the court session was brief. The court swore in new lawyers and issued an 86-page list made up almost entirely of cases the justices declined to consider. Like whether a Texas law making it a crime to promote sex toys shaped like sexual organs is unconstitutional, or a challenge to McCain-Feingold. "Vote like a good little republican and the supreme court will protect your rights". Yeah, right. NSDAP wins council seat in Charleston SC OK, Larry Shirley is not a Nazi. He just sounds like one. . My wife and I joke about getting her son drunk and doing a home vasectomy on him. But it's a JOKE. And it would be penance, not public policy. Besides, sterilizing Mom 15 years later when the kid's a hoodlum is kind of like locking the barn after the horse gets out. Why should government get involved with eugenics when Nature would do a fine job, if government only got out of the way?. Or Foley could move to California. Says my wife, "Anyone proposing a law on sexual predators should be given an instant FBI background check and put under surveillance for 7 months." Sort of a more humane Locrian law. This would include the authors of California's Proposition 83, which would give California some of the nation's strictest laws governing sex offenders, increasing prison and parole terms for many crimes. Its most controversial provision would bar released offenders from living within 2,000 feet of a school or park and permit local governments to make other locations, such as libraries or public swimming pools, off limits. The initiative also would require released sex offenders to wear an electronic tracking device for life, regardless of their crime or level of dangerousness. Convicted daughter-molester and activist Jake Goldenflame claims that the law would make sex offenders homeless, and wants the state to establish a sort of psychosexual leper colony for them. He's got a point, particularly since, as written, prior offenders aren't grandfathered out. There are some real constitutional issues with this. And won't this lead to the exportation of perversion from California? Not that that would be anything new... But I laughed out loud at this: The law's chief sponsor, Republican state Sen. George Runner, ...said ..."We don't think government can go in and kick someone out of his house." Tell it to Suzette Kelo, George. Roy? Another DC hypocrite goes home Mark Foley is headed back to "the wang of America" At a White House Rose Garden ceremony on July 27, President Bush hailed Foley and some other House and Senate lawmakers as members of a "SWAT team for kids." Swat team? Didn't know he was into BDSM. The sanctimonious little perv urged Jeb Bush to persecute nudists, wanted to seize steal johns' cars, proposed opening FBI databases to the Boy Scouts, and made 'frequent appearances on cable talk shows, where he described sex offenders as "animals" who will persist "unless stopped."' I guess he would know. Like he said, "it's more sad than anything else, to see someone with such potential throw it all down the drain because of a sexual addiction." Only he said that about Clinton.

Product Details Pocket Books/Star Trek, September 2001 eBook, 272 pages ISBN-10: 074341859X ISBN-13: 9780743418591 Read an ExcerptChapter 1. Sulu also took his position in the proscribed circle for transport. He was holding his arm again, in pain from the injured shoulder. Dehydration had aggravated the wound. McCoy tensed, anticipating the familiar tug of the transporter. The chamber seemed to sparkle and fade. But it was only for a moment. Then they were back again, inside the Kalandan station. "The joys of modern technology!" McCoy exclaimed. "How can anyone trust these things?" Kirk flipped his communicator open. "Enterprise, what happened?" "Sir!" The voice of the transporter operator wavered. "The automatic sequence was interrupted by a biofilter alert. There is an unknown organism in your systems." McCoy unslung his medical tricorder. "It must be the organism that the Kalandans accidentally created." Spock also began to scan the chamber. Security Guard Joe Reinhart, a big, stocky man, looked distinctly uncomfortable. Pulling out the tiny medical scanner, McCoy checked Reinhart. "Go ahead and breathe. It's already infected all of us." "Fascinating," Spock murmured. "There are several unusual parasites on this planetoid." "The one inside us doesn't appear to be a true virus, but it's certainly not bacterial." McCoy shook his head over his medical scanner. "This thing can't seem to pinpoint the exact nature of the organism." Kirk nodded shortly. "That must be why the transporter biofilter didn't work." "I'll have to perform a level one bio-scan," McCoy agreed. "That will give the computer the specifications it needs." Sulu was looking bleak. "That could take hours." Kirk glanced around the chamber, placing his fists on his hips. "Gentlemen, it looks like we'll be here for a while longer. Might as well make ourselves comfortable." McCoy grumbled, "Sure, you get comfortable while I get to work." "Aren't doctors always on call?" The captain adjusted the dial on his communicator. "Kirk to Enterprise. No one, I repeat, no one is to transport down to the station until further orders." Scotty sounded determined. "Aye, sir. I wish Wyatt was here. He was a genius with biofiltration systems. I'll just run down -- " "Hold on there, Scotty. What happened to Wyatt?" Kirk glanced at Spock, who was nodding slowly. "I'm sorry, Captain, Transporter Chief Wyatt was killed at his station." Kirk clenched his jaw while McCoy felt his stomach twist. None of them had wanted to believe the transporter chief was dead. Wyatt had been seeing one of McCoy's nurses for the past year. Medical Technician Michaels must be distraught right now. Security Guard Reinhart was looking uncomfortable. "We never found the intruder who killed Wyatt or Engineer Watkins." "Watkins, too?" Kirk demanded. Now he looked angry. "How?" Scotty must have thought the question was directed at him. "According to Dr. M'Benga's autopsy, Captain, every cell in their bodies was disrupted. We don' know how it happened, but I heard Watkins call out a warning about a woman in engineering." "Could it have been Losira?" Sulu asked, startled. "I don't doubt it," Kirk said flatly. That made three crew members dead. McCoy sincerely hoped they would be the last, but he had a feeling it wouldn't be that easy. Scotty was saying, "I ran to help, Captain, but I dinna get there in time." "It's not your fault, Scotty. None of us could stop her." "Aye, Captain." Scotty sounded unconvinced. "Maintain an open channel to sickbay so Dr. McCoy can perform a level one bio-scan." "That we can do, Captain." "And Scotty, perform a continuous scan of this sector for approaching ships. Since this is unexplored territory, there's no telling who might happen by." "Aye," Scotty agreed dourly. "We'll keep an eye out up here. Don' you worry about that." McCoy half-listened while Spock continued briefing Kirk on what had happened while the landing party was stranded. The captain only interrupted once to express shock at the extreme warp speed the Enterprise had managed to sustain. What would normally take months to travel at warp 9, had taken little more than a day at warp 14. It was typical of Spock to act like it was all in a normal day's work. Meanwhile, McCoy started sending orders to Dr. M'Benga in sickbay. Not only did he order a portable bio-computer and diagnostic unit, but he also asked the technicians to send down half-a-dozen emergency ration kits, complete with food and water. It wasn't as good as a sonic shower, but with a little bit of nourishment inside him, he could tackle this organism and get them back to the ship before the next duty-shift. Near the Starfleet border, the cruiser 'Ong of the Klingon Defense Force made its scheduled rounds. Captain Mox had been spending most of his time in his own narrow quarters. Only Mox knew why, but his crew would find out soon enough. Any time now, one of his officers would receive tidings from Qo'noS containing the latest news of his father, Sowron. As a devoted follower of the Cult of Kahless, Mox believed in honor above all. Kahless had shown the way, decreeing that a warrior's honor was founded on the honor of his father's house. And Mox's father had no honor! Mox slammed his fist into the reinforced wall above his sleep bench. There was a sour stench in the air from his unwashed, unkempt body. For days he had battered the walls of his chamber, to no avail. He kept the lights low, so the heavy bulkheads curved into the darkness over his head. He wanted no witness to his struggle, not even himself. His crew would never understand. He was the only one on board who adhered to Kahless' teachings. Some of his crew complained about his strict adherence to honor. Their scorn would flow freely when they found out about his father. Many would doubtless be amused that Sowron had squandered the family fortune on attempted "cures" after he had fallen sick with a wasting illness. Then Sowron had fallen down dead in the City Council Chamber in front of gathered officials from across the Klingon Empire, struck down by a tiny parasite that had slowly eaten away his gut. Mox let out a roar of fury every time he thought of it. He would not return for his father's funeral. His father was nothing to him now. He could find no resolution, as much as he tore at his armor and hair, growling in frustration. If only he could go to battle! Only that would restore honor to his family. No -- if only his father had listened to the words of Kahless! A true Klingon would have ended his life in glory, choosing a valiant enemy to battle his way to death. But no, not his father. From a mighty house, they had fallen far. Mox was in the foulest of tempers when his first officer signaled. Gulda's surly face was the same as usual, her frizzy brown hair standing on end. "Captain! Long-range sensors are picking up the remnants of a power surge. From the degradation of the signal, it appears that, at the source, the energy expended would have been off the scale." Mox called up the log on his screen without bothering to settle his bulk into the chair. "It comes from near Federation territory." "Yes, Captain. Shall I relay the information to High Command?" There was an odd look in Gulda's eyes, no doubt taking in her captain's disheveled armor and his bleeding fists. Mox made his decision. "Set course for the source of that power surge." "But, Captain -- " his first officer protested, her sneer becoming more pronounced. "TammoH!" Mox shouted. So Gulda knew. That meant they all knew. She was sullen as Mox ordered, "Proceed at warp 8." "By your command, Captain!" She did him the courtesy of waiting until Mox closed the channel first. Mox knew his first officer would do as he said, but her slow response would show her disdain. His crew would mock his dishonor as surely as they had chafed under his rules. All of his warriors would react like Gulda. But none would dare break rank and contact Klingon High Command about their course alteration. They were heading toward the furthest reaches of space, where the Neutral Zone had not yet been designated. It was one vast, unexplored zone, so, technically, Mox was not violating orders. Before his dishonor, he would have been satisfied to report the unusual power surge to High Command. His duty rotation would have taken him out of the area before his superiors could determine whether they wanted the phenomenon investigated. Now, it was in his hands. Mox intended to wrest some glory from this mission if it took every drop of blood in his body and that of his crew to do it. He would give his crew a chance to die a good and noble death. Whether they appreciated it or not. While McCoy analyzed the bio-readings of the deadly organism, Spock took the opportunity to examine the computer cube. At his request, the Enterprise sent down a lift unit to raise him up to the crumpled rock ceiling of the chamber. Getting the outer casing off proved to be a challenge, but one that Spock met with dispatch. The cube was attached to the ceiling with electrostatic bolts. With the muted colors still cycling over the surface, Spock laid the cube on one of the telescoping supports of the lift. Inside the cube were hundreds of thousands of monofilaments connecting to various devices, which Spock proceeded to scan. The other ends of the monofilaments disappeared into a stasis-sealed junction in the rock ceiling. Spock theorized that the cube was an interface node, operated by a computer in a remote location via the monofilaments. That theory was confirmed by the statements made by Losira in her message concerning the computer defense system. However, he was unable to trace the monofilaments beyond the edge of the wall, where they disappeared behind the diburnium-osmium alloy. Even the sensors on the Enterprise weren't able to detect anything beneath the layer of diburnium and osmium. These alloys should not be capable of blocking their sensors, so Spock surmised that something else was contributing to the sensor block. Due to McCoy's unfortunate habit of talking aloud while he worked, Spock was able to simultaneously follow the medical analysis while he performed his own investigation. The doctor evidently considered the organism to be a "near-virus." There were subatomic anomalies that McCoy couldn't explain, but the doctor repeatedly assured Captain Kirk that a basic identification should be enough for the transporter to filter the organisms out of their systems. Spock was familiar with an antiquated human quote about protesting too much, but he refrained from comment. McCoy downloaded his work and transmitted the specs of the organism to the ship's computer. "That should do it. Now the biofilter will be able to handle this bug." Kirk jumped up, ready to go. Spock followed at a slower pace. He intended to return to the Kalandan station at his earliest convenience to continue his investigation. "Prepare to transport," Kirk ordered. The five crew members stood in a circle, anticipating transport. The degree of muscular tension in Kirk's stance indicated that he was impatient to return to the Enterprise. He was naturally concerned about the damage done to the ship by Losira's sabotage. Power overloads and malfunctions had occurred in almost every system. The fused matter/antimatter integrator had severely damaged the warp engines. At the time of the crisis, Spock had estimated their chances of survival were a mere twelve percent. However, Mr. Scott had performed his job adequately, and the engines were shut down by a manual bypass of the integrator. "Energize," Kirk ordered into the communicator. There was a brief disorientation as dematerialization began. But the cycle ceased 1.204 seconds into the sequence. The landing party remained on the Kalandan station. "What in blue blazes is this thing!" McCoy exploded. "I don't know, Doctor, but it's your job to find out." Kirk adjusted his communicator. "Scotty, as you can see, it didn't work." "Aye, Captain. There appears t' be a problem with the quantum differentials." Kirk gave Dr. McCoy a sidelong glance. "We'll factor that into our calculations." Snapping the communicator closed, Kirk asked, "What's next, Doctor?" "Well, I can't even tell if it's an organism that mimics a virus or the other way around," McCoy wearily admitted. "I'm not sure how we got infected, though it's most likely airborne, because it happened so quickly." Spock ascertained that the doctor was paler than normal. Humans had a tendency to react adversely when deprived of their comforts, McCoy more so than others, in his opinion. Indeed, Kirk ordered, "Why don't you get some rest, Bones? Now that the ship has your specs on the organism, the medical staff can take over your analysis." McCoy hardly protested before going to lie down next to Sulu, flinging one arm over his eyes to shield them from the bright ambient light. Security Guard Reinhart was seated on the other side of the chamber, keeping watch on the doorway. His phaser hung loosely in his hand. Spock climbed back up on the lift and recommenced his analysis of the devices inside the computer node. There was one cluster consisting entirely of omnidirectional diodes. Several of the components formed advanced forcefield projection units and graviton beam emitters. There was also a targeting scanner, with a protected feed through the rock ceiling. As absorbing as his investigation was, Spock was distracted by the captain's pacing through the chamber. After a while, as Kirk continued his restless back-and-forth march, Spock finally leaned over the railing of the lift. "You are disturbed, Captain. May I be of assistance?" "Find me that computer, Spock. I want to see the machine that's capable of transporting a starship a thousand light-years away." Spock knew there was no need to correct Kirk's approximation at this moment. "I am currently endeavoring to do so, Captain." "Yes, I know, Spock. But it makes me antsy to be sitting on top of that much power. It's here -- somewhere -- and we have to find it." Kirk narrowed his eyes. "That energy burst was off the scale. Somebody's bound to come looking for what caused it." "Indeed, that is a reasonable assumption, Captain." Kirk glanced over at the stash of phasers the Enterprise had sent down, then at Reinhart, who was watching the doorway. "Our position is too vulnerable." He flipped open his communicator. "Kirk to Enterprise." "Scotty here, Captain." "Any sign of ships in this sector?" "No, sir!" Spock discerned relief in the engineer's voice. Apparently Kirk heard it, too. "We're lighting up the sensors down here, aren't we?" "Aye, Captain, yer lifesigns read clear though the rock. The tricorders and diagnostic unit are also sending out power spikes." Kirk considered the options. "Scotty, tell me more about that portable shield you've been working on." Scotty's voice warmed like he was talking about an old friend. "She's making progress, Captain! I just finished synchronizing th' forcefield frequencies to conceal the phase rotation." "The question is, Scotty, does it work? Can it hide the entrance to this station?" "She's got a few bugs yet, sir. But I think she'll do the trick for ye," Scott said approvingly. "Ye never know who might come nosing around at this end of th'quadrant. The Klingon border isn't far from here." Spock believed it was a measure of Kirk's agitation that he agreed, "Send it on down, Scotty." Kirk figured it was worth a try. Scotty had pulled off miracles enough times before that he wouldn't doubt his chief engineer now. Not long after Scotty signed off, a bulky gray unit materialized on the polished floor of the chamber. It was a double square joined together by a fat Y-junction. There were several aerial feeds on top. The dials on the side were activated, and the power cells were fully charged. Kirk circled it. The unit didn't look very impressive. Was this why Scotty had spent every off-duty day in the engineering lab rather than relaxing and joining crew activities? "Reinhart, you're with me." Kirk grabbed one handle of the portable shield unit while Reinhart took the other. Spock raised one brow, making a silent commentary on the probable effectiveness of Scotty's latest pet project. Kirk gave Spock a warning look, and the Vulcan complacently returned to his examination of the computer node in the ceiling. Now that the neat cubical covering had been removed, the node looked like an explosion of monofilaments and inverter nodules. Reinhart helped Kirk carry the shield unit up the passageway that doubled back to the doorway. Kirk realized something was different -- it was darker in the passageway than before. It turned out that the door was down, shutting them inside the station. But as Kirk and Reinhart approached, the panel abruptly slid up into the rock. After a moment, the large slab that concealed the doorway moved aside. "It must be automated," Reinhart ventured. The dusty surface of the planetoid was the same. The sky was in its "night" phase, which was only slightly darker than normal. The yellow-blue blades of grass growing in the lower cracks of the rocks appeared to be barely clinging to life. Reinhart looked around with interest, having never seen the surface of the planetoid before. "Where do you want this, sir?" "Over here." Kirk was trying to remember the instructions Scotty had poured through the communicator. In his opinion, Scotty needed to scale down on the operating requirements to make the shield more user-friendly. He and Reinhart carried the shield unit to a spot just outside the sliding rock slab. It would probably close again once they went inside, and would add another layer of protection for the landing party. Kirk activated the levelers and checked the imager to make sure the shield would encompass the entire rock mass. There was room to spare, so he tightened the parameters. Reinhart took care to stand inside the area Kirk indicated. Then it took numerous tiny adjustments to get the gauges pointing in the same direction. Finally Kirk opened his communicator. "Scotty, we're going under the shield. Maintain an open channel at all times." Kirk activated the shield. A hum rose from the unit, and a faint pearlized sheen appeared. From the outside, everything would look exactly the same, with the shield unit concealed within. Or so Scotty said. Kirk sniffed. It smelled like hair was burning, but he could see no smoke coming from the unit. "What do you get, Scotty?" Kirk asked. "Sensors reading no life-forms, Captain. No power spikes. She did it!" His voice broke with emotion. "That's a fine piece of machinery, sir!" It didn't take much to make Scotty happy. Just a few circuits and microchips did the job. "Good work. Kirk out." He was pocketing his communicator. "Well, that will -- " The doorway slid down and the rock slab suddenly began to move. Kirk pushed Reinhart out of the way. They both ended up tight against the shield, with the rock slab passing inches in front of their noses. It stopped short of the shield unit. "Sir?" Reinhart asked uncertainly. Kirk hadn't expected the rock slab to close until they were inside, but he wasn't going to admit that to his security guard. The shield would let them step through, from the inside out. But then they wouldn't be able to get back in again until someone inside the station deactivated the shield. "We got in before, Reinhart, we'll get in again." "Yes, sir...but how?" Reinhart was splayed against the rock slab. Kirk was similarly stuck. Whenever he brushed against the shield, there was static discharge. He tried to remember what had happened when the landing party had found the entrance to the Kalandan station. "We were tracking the power surge, and the indicator on my tricorder pointed directly to this rock outcropping." "Do you have your tricorder?" Reinhart asked hopefully. "It's inside." "Oh." Reinhart shifted, sending up a few static sparks. He pressed his lips together against an unseemly exclamation. "It was the only time the power surge didn't disappear, so we were able to track it." Kirk thought hard about what he'd done. "We walked right up this slab. The tricorder said the entrance was here -- " The rock slab shifted. Kirk peeled himself off the shield, pulling Reinhart with him. Then the doorway slid up, revealing the passageway into the station. Kirk straightened his uniform. "An effective system, I'm sure Mr. Spock would say." "Yes, sir," Reinhart said, in obvious relief. As they reentered the main chamber, Spock glanced down. "Any trouble, Captain?" "None, Mr. Spock." Reinhart took a deep breath. Whatever he had been about to say was lost in his shout. "Watch out! She's back!" The humming came from the wall behind Kirk, where Losira appeared. He saw right away that it wasn't the deadly replica, but merely an image on the wall. Losira's beauty always had the same impact. There was something very appealing about the way her eyes slanted upward at the outer edges. He even liked the streaks of pink and green, and that unusual purple uniform. Reinhart had his phaser out, pointing it at the rock wall. Spock also turned, aiming his tricorder at the image. Her lips opened briefly in a slight smile. "My fellow Kalandans, welcome. A disease has destroyed us. Beware of it. After your long journey, I'm sorry to give you only a recorded welcome..." "It's the same message," Kirk said. "It must have been triggered by our entrance." Spock agreed. "Which means this image is controlled by other means than this damaged computer node." "Perhaps the computer is capable of repairing itself." That wasn't exactly a comforting notion, considering how the computer had operated. "Unlikely," Spoke replied. "I am not reading any energy emissions from this computer node. It is currently inert." The image of Losira was saying, "The computer will selectively defend against all life-forms except our own. My fellow Kalandans, I, Losira, wish you well." Losira closed her eyes and stood impassively, waiting as she had for hundreds of years. "Did your tricorder get all that, Mr. Spock?" Spock nodded affirmatively. "Send it to the Enterprise. I'll include it in my subspace report to Starfleet. They must be informed that a weapon of this power exists." After a few moments, Losira's image disappeared. Kirk figured that would be the last time he ever saw her. But if they could penetrate this station somehow, there might be more wonders to discover. Kirk settled onto a folding stool near the lift unit while Security Guard Reinhart resumed his post, keeping watch on the entrance. With a minimum of words, Kirk recorded his message to Starfleet and filed his log on the communications unit. He added the log Spock had kept while he was in command of the Enterprise. As auxiliary documents, Kirk included Losira's message and Dr. McCoy's specs on the deadly organism. Kirk concluded his message by saying, "I believe this station is worth further investigation, if only to ensure that the defense system is fully deactivated. Request permission to remain in this sector. Another ship can take over our diplomatic assignment in the Cister system." They would be late reporting to that engagement now, at any rate. "I await your decision. Kirk out." Kirk sent the message to Uhura on the Enterprise, asking her to encode it at the top security level. No need to let anyone else know about the incredible technology concealed on this planetoid. Kirk was dozing fitfully when Spock informed him that the Enterprise had signaled with a coded transmission that had arrived from Starfleet Command. Kirk stumbled up from the bedroll, noting that both Sulu and McCoy continued to sleep. Even Reinhart was snoring lightly, slumped in his post near the entrance. Only Spock continued to work. Kirk sat down with the portable communications unit to listen to the message. It was from Commodore Enwright, which meant Starfleet considered this to be a matter of galactic defense. Enwright's smooth, dark face was impassive as usual, giving no indication of his inner thoughts. But Kirk could guess at the commodore's mood; Enwright was known for his sour temper and rigid adherence to duty. "Captain Kirk, send a full report, including technical data regarding the interstellar transporter you have discovered. Do not, I repeat, do not allow that technology to fall into enemy hands, especially those of the Klingons or the Romulans. We must protect the balance of power in this quadrant. Understood?" the commodore demanded. Kirk understood. The Romulans could use an interstellar transporter to send assassins into the very heart of the Federation. The Klingons would undoubtedly want to know the secret of cellular disruption, to incorporate it into their own weapons. Armed with his orders, Kirk went to help Spock assemble the technical data they had acquired thus far. It was up to him to make sure the Kalandan station was protected.

The Punch, News Ltd’s attempt to get jiggy with blogging and Huffington Post style news aggregation has been launched into the wilds of the internets. “There are some great websites … (but) there’s no general opinion sites aimed at a large mainstream audience. We also have no political bent, … no ideological skew,” he says. “The audience will be anyone with a passion for debate about news and current affairs. It’s not going to be some worthy forum of capital I ‘Ideas’, where everything is couched in lofty academic language. Equally, it isn’t going to be a ranting, lowest-common-denominator site, either. And just like all the other for realz blog sites… Posts will be 600-800 words and no one will be paid. With no marketing budget, the site will rely on word-of-mouth. But of course. 58 responses to “Punched out” I go to the site to check it out. I read, or skim rather, Rann on bikies. There are 2 links below so I go to one, which leads to an OO article about Picton, which includes this statement: “The local heritage fascists who blocked McDonald’s …. Charming. Hmm I reckon that will be the last time I visit Punch, its just a shill for the OO. @Hannah, well they have linked to LP and I noticed a shout out to Hoyden in their opinion from elsewhere feed. A key will be seeing if they are really interested in engagement with the indy blogosphere long term (and helping to foster that) and unlike The Monthly, look to bring other largely unheard voices into the media mix. BTW, the site design is excellent. Highly navigable and readable. Words words everywhere and not a thing to read. Penberthy has a post on Mumbrella explaining the rationale. Judging by the topics, it looks like regular run of the mill News Ltd-esque stories packaged in a more high-brow format. I really don’t think it’s anything worth getting excited about. We also have no political bent, … no ideological skew Well that’ll make a change from everything else News Ltd has a hand in… Well, they’ve published a article by Catharine Lumby in which she takes a swipe at Andrew Bolt, so it’s not entirely a defend-the-News-Limited-line-at-all-costs type of publication. Not that anyone should be surprised that a Bolt article is ‘error-riddled’ and distorts the truth, given that that’s his default method for writing about more or less any subject. If they’re gonna “celebrate journalism” shouldn’t they include some actual journalism as opposed to more coyly provocative op-ed pieces? Also the words “Punch” and “conversation” do seem to cancel each other out. Let us see how they perform around election time and if we get an increased presence of links to conservative opinion. ‘We also have no political bent, … no ideological skew,’ News Ltd given their world wide reputation don’t deserve the benefit of the doubt. They will have to prove themselves thoroughly, in the midst of a federal election campaign. If they can keep it all neutral then… I had a look at the first two pages. Two political posts. Both against the Labor government. “It won’t have a partisan barrow to push” they squeaked before curtain-raising. No-ho-ho. Of course not! They wouldn’t be trying to bathe in the reflected glory of the British Punch magazine, would they? Like those pathetic schools in Melbourne with names like “Ozford College”? I cringe for my country. Rx @9, yes it’s all so predictable. That “do not mention the deficit” story, for instance, is a tired old record of spin about spin that all the media have run with glee. The numerous clumbsy efforts of the opposition to NOT mention how much they would have spent have been drowned out in the mass ‘gotcha’ celebrations. New format, same concentration on anti-Rudd crap. It’s not a fancy, la-di-dah site aimed at people with three university degrees… *cringe* this new-fangled website … *cringe* I can’t read any more, too embarassed for them I’m most pleasantly surprised, News Limited. Pick it, pack it, fire it up, come along, etc. Your ounce is in the mail. On my laptop, all the comments were mangled -overtyped and unreadable. It happened both times I tried to access The Punch. Anyone else have this problem? Anyone know how to fix it? It appears to me like a rip-off of Comment is Free, the Guardian op-ed place. Except that CiF has no stupid 600-700 word limit. It’s not a fancy, la-di-dah site aimed at people with three university degrees, nor is it a site for yobbos who want to engage in mindless abuse. Make mine a triple cringe with a extra serving of WTF on the top. It may be your browser, Ozymandias. Are you using IE? That’s what I’m using at the moment. Yes, IE sucks but most people seem able to publish on it. @Ozymandias, maybe you have your Punch’s confused. News Ltd is genetically incapable of having no ‘political bent’ as John Howard is of telling the truth. Nah, it’s new new IE. It’s playing up on my bruiser too. I took one look and cursed myself for being so curious. The Mike also-Rann article was enough to avoid it forever. WTF, cringe with 6 steak knives and a money-back guarantee. I would subscribe to have it taken off the internets. Is this Rupert’s fiendish new plan for making money out of the ethersphere? Tim Dunlop broke new ground for News Ltd with his workmanlike, reasonable and fair template of a modern major blog. I doubt if they learnt much from the gift they were given. Hi all, I am part of The Punch team, wanted to declare that upfront! @Roger Jones: We’ve fixed up the IE 8 wobbles, so if you’d like to curse yourself again for being so curious at least it should display properly for you. @Helen: I can’t help with cringe-factor but hopefully we’ve sorted your IE issues too, let me know if it’s more or less cringey with new and improved IE formatting goodness. Enjoy! (…or not.) It’s not a fancy, la-di-dah site aimed at people with three university degrees Second comment on Pinch & Punch post: “…I think Im going to loose many hours of my life reading and commenting on this site”. Heh. It’s not that bad, for a News Ltd site, but if this is the kind of content that Rupe thinks he’s going to charge for, well, good luck with that. Agree with joe2 #21, if they’re as smart as they seem to think, they really should have taken something away from Tim Dunlop’s efforts with Blogocracy and put them to use here. Well, so far Adam it does seem a bit a bland. Some of the writers look interesting to me, so I may check it out on a regular basis to see what youse are doing. I But I will add that the video of the first internets news was very cool. Loved the old codger who liked copying So if I comment and sign it BA, BA (Hons.), M.A. will they publish it? That’s only two degrees, Paul, so you’re OK, just. But … but I don’t want to go through all the hassle of getting a Ph.D. just to be more of an outsider. Will keep an eye on it, though. Though I can’t see anything on it that excites me at the moment. Well I wanted to comment on the Lumby piece and I rehashed what I wrote over at Hoydens and posted it. And I went straight into moderation. Is that normal practice on News Ltd blogs? Does everything need to be approved before its published? That’s more than enough to stop me from commenting there again. Im just being moderated everywhere today, is that it? Paul, you could probably acquire a Grad. Dip. in something with much less effort than a Ph.D. Would that count? @David.. No, Grad Dips don’t count. Personally I think a BA in Religion and Philosophy should count as “2″. Maybe then I could go another one in art history. I know I want to…. It far easier to be BO.GAN.(fully) if you want elimination with punch. Casey @ 29, I just released that one. I’m the neo-Luddite around here, but it’s probably a Wordpress thing where the mod filter can be temperamental. By approving your comments it should learn. It used to catch me regularly, but now although there is a definite trigger on 3 comments it always lets me through no matter how many links I employ. Hope it gets to like you too, but I don’t know how to persuade it I think we all knew that eventually Rupert would make a go of the blogosphere. He has once more followed his classic second mover advantage strategy. Sit back while a lot of others experiment, make mistakes, and lose money, before leap-frogging over the whole market. His big advantage is no costs for the writers. The writers will be begging to contribute anyway due to News Ltd.’s unbeatable distribution. He will also be able to leverage content aggregating skills, and with the scale economies even pay some subeditors. The bad news is for all those independent blogs that basically caught the wave of the Howard culture war years. Unless they’ve got a niche hook of expertise in something – astronomy, economics, law, etc., blogs like LP are going to die. Even Road To Surdom worked this out a while ago. Still, it was fun while it lasted. Casey, there is always a delay at News Ltd blogs while they decide whether your comment is line with Bolt Standard Ideological Time. Your comment should come up quickly at The Punch, though, as they are trying to estabish a new monkey base. Well Im interested in Lumby. I find her quite maddening at times. So I got through quickly enough, but looking around at some of the comments, I feel like Im commenting on Blair’s site. Ick. Someone has posted a hypothetical wanting to know if Matthew Johns had group sex with a group of women – would that make Matthew Johns sexually objectified? – and so now Im wondering how to get my comment back natch… Well, Casey, my mistake on “The Punch” was to call for a balanced discussion on the spin around the deficit figures when the author of the article is actually named “Tory”. Casey, my dear, what you don’t seem to understand about offering criticism of Dr Lumby is that you’re supposed to use words like ‘sapphosphere’, ‘luvvie’ and ‘bint’. I hope this helps. You’re totally unqualified in the relevant areas of physics, mathematics and economics to comment on Lumby’s work with the NRL. I had another one under the name ‘El Pulgón’, but I think it looked too much like the real thing and some well-meaning LPer has binned it. I don’t think they’d dare compare themselves with Punch magaizine; it’s witty. Perhaps “The Punch” is “The King Hit” adapted for republicans? Yes I agree with all of you. Tory, El Pugon. Heh. For my part, I’m glad that somebody is publicly questioning Lumby in an intelligent way. I think there are some important questions still to be asked about her involvement and commentary on this, (and also on porn, though that’s a somewhat separate issue) but they’re never asked by her more vocal public critics, who always seem to miss the mark. Let’s not have any talk of Matthew Johns being sexually objectified. Or sexually subjectified. Objective?, subjective?, it’s just a matter of personal preference isn’t it? And let’s eschew pugilistic quips. Rupert is NOT “punching above his weight”, OK? klaus k It always puzzled me that the NRL saw fit to call on a Professor to instruct its players in everyday decency. Without consent it’s sexual assault and/or rape, chaps! You shouldn’t need a Professor to tell you. A policeperson or a lawyer might add some intelloectual or legal force to the telling…. Why did the NRL think a Professor was apt? Do they so admire her credentials and academic status? Ambi, I think that’s a simplification, though you’re not totally off-track in asking those questions. Lumby was involved in a research project part-funded by the ARC, and part-funded by the NRL (ie along the lines of the ‘linked’ style of research promoted by the last several federal governments). As she says, she was not and is not an educator with the NRL, though presumably some of that research has been used in the resulting education programs. So it’s not that she’s there to tell the lads how to act, but rather is there firstly as a researcher, and now as an unpaid consultant, into gender and sexuality issues around the NRL and its players. At least that’s my understanding. Casey’s question was about the way that the organisation itself – that is, not just the players – produces a gendered, even sexist, discourse, and about how much of Lumby’s time is spent deflecting to ‘broader’ social problems in her commentary and not reflecting on the NRL itself. I don’t think Lumby is deflecting at all mentioning that what has happened in the NRL is part of a broader, social problem. If anyone thinks that the issues involved are solely the province of the NRL, they need to have a look around. One thing the Four Corners program showed is that players come into the NRL with certain notions already in mind. For example, the young group of players and their very different attitudes towards a woman sexually assaulted when drunk and a bloke sexually assaulted when drunk. I agree with Lumby that there is a larger issue that needs to be addressed. Ambi, you may be enlightened but a lot of the discussion concerning the 2002 incident (and the 2004 one) is about when consent is withdrawn. It may seem clear cut to some but there are plenty who reckon they can do what they want just because a woman agrees initially. Note that Karen Willis also works with educating NRL players and believes the work worthwhile. I think it’s a fine line, at times, Shaun, because Lumby doesn’t just ‘mention’ it. She uses it all the time in a calculated way, and as accurate as it is to note that it’s a broad social problem, I think that it can be another way of implying that nothing can or should be done at an institutional level. Surely it’s just revaluing the terms of an already false distinction, rather than overcoming the distinction? Is that really adequate? Lumby and Willis still seem to think that there time with the NRL is worthwhile. Given the the NRL did invite her to assist shows that at least some in the institution recognise the need for change. Yes, there will be hold outs and the comments by the Knights CEO suggests that notions of masculinity need to be addressed. But it is not fair to dismiss it all based on comments by some. Sometimes a bottom up approach is what will work and if the younger players coming through come into the game with a better perspective, then that will flow through when they are senior players. It is not an easy task. And I think Lumby and Willis and the others supporting their efforts realise that. But outside the NRL, there are societal attitudes that if improved will make their work easier. Especially, I think blokes need to start talking among each other about attitudes towards women and well as confronting notion of masculinity. That is what the NRL is trying to do and is starting to show up discussions on footy which is a great thing. I tend to think that their time there has been worthwhile also, and most certainly better than doing nothing at all about these issues. That’s one reason why I am troubled by Lumby’s rhetoric, and would like to see it intelligently, and not dismissively, questioned, as I’ve suggested. What matters, ultimately, is not whether Prof Lumby and Karen Willis may opine about their efforts, but whether or not the behaviour and attitudes of the players improve. Yes, it’s a problem in the wider society and many efforts are being made to reduce sexual violence and family violence. It may well be that (somehow) ensuring changes in men’s attitudes will make the largest contribution. And it may just be that widespread discussion of the most flagrant cases with “star” perpetrators, could make some blokes sit up and take notice, then take action. I’m not excusing the responsibility of the NRL in this, nor the AFL, nor any organisation that turns out to include more than it’s fair share – how could any share except zero be fair? – of perpetrators, to make a contribution to fixing this blight. Prof Lumby has had so much publicity out of this: she would need to be a very strong and focussed researcher not to relish the opportunity to push related barrows. Thanks for the point of detail Shaun. As far as I’m concerned, when “consent is withdrawn” then consent no longer exists. And regardless of the impetus and rhythm of events, action must cease. Simplistic, but it’s the only way. That’s worth the cogitation of blokes, too. Gee, this has really gone OT. Klaus @34 Maybe, but it’s not lost on me that the Catherine Lumby discussion appears to have migrated to this post/blog. Why is that? The mistake you’re making is in thinking its an either or when in reality its both. Different audiences and different markets different conversations. Remember too that it’s News joining the conversation, extending on what they have done in their online dailies, the barbarians won, comprehensively, that’s why they are here in this space and will attempt to monetise it. Good luck to them too on that score, but my bet is that attempts to monetise opinion as opposed to journalism will fail. Opinion resides totally in the realm of the gift economy. It’s the quality information niches that will pay, witness the WSJ, so yes, News may be better off establishing that Astronomy journal now. wasn’t that Emile? Definitely not me. Anyways, will no longer dwell on off-topic topics… Blurb on one of the columnists today: “…a senior journalist and beer columnist on Queensland’s Courier-Mail:! Beer columnist! How do I get a gig like that?! Of course, people are allowed to change their minds, but given Catharine Lumby’s general attitude to blogging as expressed in this I’m sort of surprised to see her joining what also looks to me like a copy of CiF, with extra Rupes thrown in for good measure. The only possible response to such places – which inevitably attract the worst sort of commenting dregs, because there is no peer pressure on people to think before they post and be accountable for their comments – is spEak You’re bRanes My take: “I’m guessing she’s a junior lecturer or perhaps a PhD student at La Trobe university.” and so forth and so on and you’ve got to be joking right? Nifty. Never addresses the substantive issues but deflects deflects deflects with side swipes straight back at ya, all the while talking about standards in the blogosphere. Give me a hissy fit passive agressive little break. Yes, yes, OT, Im going now.

- : iPod Browse, search and watch iPod videos and more at revision3.com Thu, 10 Dec 2009 ipod 4:58 "go it could definitely come in very handy during your next -- iPod or XT want. Is there another apple -- to -- if you. That hasn't even on app judgment at this U three " (see more episodes) Jibbigo Speech Translator for the iPhone and iPod Touch - AppJudgment No español? No problem! Jibbigo for the iPhone and iPod Touch provides amazing speech-based translation between English and Spanish. How well does it really work, and is it worth the price tag? All Media | Only Audio | Only Video Creating your own iPod Cables and Connectors - Best Of... Thu, 29 May 2008Patrick Norton demonstrates how to make your very own iPod connectors and cables. (Systm) More from | ipod found at 0:04, 1:20, 1:54 thirty connector mayor acted theory tightly together the standard reference. Probably iPod and functions are found on line it -- are -- slash devices slash iPod underscore pan out dot html. And the ever popular www. IPod -- that org slash doc underscore connector. Most often using a mere four pins that's been your iPod is going to -- USB cable -- sixteen is the USB ground. -- 23 is five volt positive. And 25 for USB When we're -- a regular iPod connector deftly and indeed a low lauded soldering iron with a fairly. Narrowed tip we have here's your basic fifteen month iron use. And this tip actually comes from cold to cool because this iPod the next dot org forums. And then this wired and basically and then play around these until the wire. Is. Kind of Build a Must-Have iPod Accessory - Systm Tue, 27 May 2008We show you how to replace an expensive iPhone/ iPod dock with a small, cheap and very portable cable. More from | ipod found at 0:25, 1:00, 2:16, 3:28, 4:25 and we have a fun show for everybody out there with an iPod or anybody it's curious about how those ridiculous dock connector -- at these things having an about -- your iPod we're basically all the power charging in the music transfer goes through -- a pretty wild connective has about thirty pins inside there and you can do is an interesting things by playing around with it. There let's take a look at the viewer question inspired this episode. My crates and I've been trying to come up with a cable that'll allow my iPod -- iPhone to charge and give me an audio line out connection at the same time for looking around I found the pin -- for the dock connector where you can get the connectors. But -- a little Leary well -- I think he means of hooking up to cable and made my 500 dollar iPhone or my iPod and risk breaking it thought it might be good show and help people save some cash it's Mike in Augusta Georgia great question Mike. Well do you one better let's talk about iPod cabling. The mystery of -- house at -- connector it's on every iPod dock connector. It's our -- higher iPhone is a little different from your iPod . There we're gonna play around the pain of soldering little tiny wires little tiny pins its an art and then just for fun let's hacking in my old iPod to do the DIY mind. The ultimate audio file hardware hack for iPod . If you using an amplifier let's go to the workshop. In soldering a little tiny pins like knees. Plus -- for iPod had to bring out the true audio file great audio hidden inside the world's most popular MP3 player the DIY -- not collection of the Iowa parts including two types of DIY. Doc or iPod connectors both male and female before five bucks another big company offers these is right -- we have the URL for that he'd blow. Okay might. This was in behalf of myself. Roger -- there yet. That we want to thank you for the tremendous learning opportunities and making. A simple iPod breakout cable has been. In fact my child Seamus and my wife's -- would also like to thank you for the opportunity to actually really go look down the rabbit -- on this one now. IPod announce our. Reidy well known it's the iPhone keep going and actually his penis troubles now that this device -- here it's connected on here on out. And we actually have for a standard iPod if functioning breakout cable that student power off the USB bus. Who in the global flicking your car you'd use a firewire Going to -- the regular iPod connector -- going to need a little lauded soldering iron with a fairly. Narrowed tip we have here is your basic 51 use. And this tip actually comes from cold to cool because this iPod -- X dot org forums. And then this wire and basically and then play around these until -- wire. Is. -- I'm pin connector -- packed in theory tightly together the standard reference. Probably iPod and functions are found on line it counts that are used flash devices slash iPod underscore -- that as html. And the ever popular www. IPod limits that org slash doc underscore connector. Most often you're using a mere four pins that's been your iPod is going to -- USB cable can sixteen is the USB ground. -- 23 is five volt positive. In 25 for USB Let's get back to Mike's question what's the few things whose powers iPod . He also ones you want. -- now for on this is actually pretty simple you take a look at the pins right. number two is actually connected from the ground. So we got the iPod powered up -- the USB firewire should be problem. However. We can't keep any phone to charge or -- audio. Now. And iPhone. Let's go find people. Okay so his image but for the iPod it's fairly easy is that we got it working under firewire power networking USB power. Absolutely no problem getting the audio output to work. Into a nice little eight and audio Jack the iPhone charges from USB power only if it's also connected in the USB data -- is I don't know but that's the only way it's gonna charge off the USB data. Now the twelve full firewire -- that'll charge the iPod . Or the iPhone. Absolutely no problem it's essentially. Basically the equivalent of plane in the cigar lighter socket in the dash for your car. Now. Audio output no problem from the iPod but we've tried several. Iphones would try to couple -- phone -- pond type of device it's docked into whether it's an iPod dock. Or. B serial control device it is the jacket or should say that dock inside your car some of the other stuff out there. So -- to play around with that between now and next week Ross nuclear arms of the video connections now. Maybe it was at this point that my eyeballs are a little bit rent. A big part that is who is what our half to. Two hours two hours -- case about two hours ago. We we -- I actually discovered something the -- this iPod clinics that or pins are numbered in the exact opposite number. Be on their iPod in listings out there. Why you care well if you working with -- almost any of the devices that are numbered one through thirty right in an easier ones anyway. The iPod Linux that or dock connector we key. Basically list the -- backwards so if you're actually looking for the firewire power. Positive input it's. Can eat. On the iPod clinics and -- 23. On everybody else's what's that mean. You need to really be careful because I take that the wrong the web page right now they have a whole bunch of different. IPod break out or extend your PCPs with or without -- iPod dock connector -- on those if you're not particularly -- it's honoring or not willing to buy. -- whole stack. Of the normal iPod dock connectors I would really highly recommend looking at one of the PCB connectors whether it's when it's right next. Or -- key to getting the audio output on an iPhone. Version of an iPod docked to work if you do not basically connect 21. To the ground on -- when he underpinned thirty you cannot get on the bottom from left to right. If you use the iPod -- devices dot org page this is the exact opposite. -- basically number I'm from right to left. Is this a problem. Yes actually it's a huge problem because everybody I've run into that does the -- circuit boards attached to these and make it also much simpler to -- these things together especially if you're experimenting. Numbers -- from left to right. Remember when we spent two hours last night doing point three -- hard reboot to my phone ringing in its because I use the iPod links numbering which does not work for the announced. On the connectors. The -- these connectors are hard my -- tools to How to spicen up your iPod ringtone - popSiren Bite Wed, 30 Jul 2008Use iTunes and your favorite song to create your own original iPod ringtone, for free. Wood carved iPod and iPhone Accessories! - Best Of... Wed, 16 Sep 2009What do wood carving and pandas have in common? They've both influence the design of some pretty ingenious iPod /iPhone accessories. More from | ipod found at 0:09, 0:42, 1:13, 1:19, 2:28 dollars on the website and -- and not exactly the most inexpensive iPod accessory lover fine I mean that's compare -- like I home system -- And this sounds to me better than I at home dock that I have at home I think about me we're gonna hit the iPhone dock I have at home beaten. Love -- like an iPod buzz word machine. That this isn't really -- IC can hear him. Yeah it says is not iPhone compatible with big moles And one thing you can say about iPod is that they had tons of accessories. And Packard recently got a bunch of it last week in wandered at nontraditional but wall charger. Adapter of any kind I'm picking out the regular standard iPod in the AC plug in there you can release that. You -- my favorite things and they've ever seen and I mean run for about 48 dollars to about a 120 for the double iPod dock. end aesthetically appealing and probably not on your co -- office desk iPod accessory. novelty speakers tend to sound like you know I don't know the iPod speaker it's our iphones -- here at the bottom of the toilet is going to be. -- an awful and ugly and by different tips. Or different devices this is one is the iPhone iPod adapter. I guess I can San Diego stands iPhone and use speed and camera charger. So I would do the RadioShack and and his pride and Julie -- fold travel stand for the iPhone iPod and iPod touch. You can buy the Amazon store. He actually an interesting he decides he could -- any portable box for his iPhone. Bert recreates an iPod from scratch, making 2-D art look 3-dimensional - PixelPerfect Mon, 20 Oct 2008This week, Bert creates an iPod using various elements in Photoshop. More from | ipod found at 1:55, 14:11, 15:09 something in the back seat -- sitting on something now. I know. IPod is now sitting on something so and do it on an eternal my background. Appeared middle layer on top and a whole thing and do an option alt merge visible. What that's doing is it merge all the layers into that single layer but kept all my original layers intact. So I'm gonna take that layer that I just create and are doing little flip vertical line. Drag it down. Right below my existing iPod . That's -- background back on. Okay I'm gonna bring many -- before it. Like that. And we'll give it a little layer chant that sort then I'd take this little guy. Take a little iPod nano. And we created. You're gonna make it look implement something really cool on the street has proven do today but before who's given this. -- cited -- everything that we have a little iPod nano created entirely from scratch. Just using these tools in Photoshop plus a little screen that we've brought in from the website Get Audio from a Dead iPod - Best Of... Fri, 6 Jun 2008Patrick Norton demonstrates how to get awesome audio from your old iPod Nano. (Systm) More from | ipod found at 0:08, 1:19 attached to the us. So let's just say that bigger B iPod generally speaking the less. Painful because assembling reestablish can be so that means you're basically talking about. Some horrible connectors so this is that this -- connector on that third generation iPod right there. And the equivalent connector on this one is something old. Like. This and they know he sees that little ribbon we cracked open now surfing is geeks clearing -- dead third generation iPod and which okay it was a fabulous experience and what do they do those something's lots and lots of tiny parishioners of Stealth WiFi In The Office, Big Notebook Drives, iPod Accessories! - Tekzilla Thu, 10 Sep 2009Wooden iPod Dock, Secure Your WiFi: WPA2 + Random 13 Character Keys, Blu-ray vs. 720p, Shure X2u: Best XLR Mic Adapter Yet? Parallel Port to USB, iFixIt, Folding@Home, Adding WiFi To The Corporate Network (will get you fired). IDF, Apple, Leica, Motorola: tons of announcements this week! More from | ipod found at 0:05, 3:46, 7:23, 7:56, 9:42 dollars on the website. And witches and not exactly the most inexpensive iPod accessory -- compare -- like I home system. And this sounds to me better than I at home -- that I have at home I think the best way we're gonna take the iPhone dock I have at home because you. Love her like an iPod buzzword machine. But this isn't really -- IC can hear him. Yeah it says is not iPhone compatible will be able save Coming up on tech so what an iPod docking and it would. Connecting pro -- machine's IU SB and -- not to set up a wireless access point -- office Hack your own brouder into the office that he can access your iPod touch from the conference room to put the cart machine -- somebody else's Q. So that when they fire -- body for Hall well love or hate them there's one thing you can -- iPod is that they had tons of accessories. And Packard recently got a bunch of it last -- in wandered at nontraditional but wall charger. Adapter of any kind on behavior at the regular standard iPod you know that AC plug in there you can release that. You know my favorite things and I've ever seen and I run for about 48 dollars to about a 120 for the double iPod dock. end aesthetically appealing and probably not on your co workers office desk iPod accessory. speakers tend to sound like you know -- I don't know the iPod speaker it's our iphones the -- at the bottom of the toilet this going to be. -- an awful and ugly and by different tips. -- different devices this is one is the iPhone iPod adapter. I -- second San Diego -- iPhone and -- beat and camera charger. So what's the RadioShack and it picked up and his pride and Julie Tico fold. Travel stand for the iPhone iPod and iPod touch. You can buy to the Amazon store. He actually an interesting -- he could find any portable box for his iPhone. | ipod found at 0:07, 1:06, 2:08, 9:38, 15:49 or PC you -- included on and the USB. on today's tech solid backing up iTunes and getting songs off your iPod HDTV antennas getting ready for that digital TV -- amazing new website and going for eight gigabytes of memory stick grabbing assembled Do you see the iPod shuffle came out last week yeah I was wearing an -- adorable fashion accessory earlier which is it's such a case it's the Apple chip. This if it keeps up it moves on the iPod that's it. I'm done. shining happy face. Still to come back up iTunes and restoring your iPod but first. Hey you gonna take this time now to thank one of today's sponsors square space should tell you more about eight bit. He says and I quote I got a four G iPod nano -- I would like to do a fresh reboot and start over yet -- blank the hard drive. And a lot of iTunes frustration and interesting but iPod frustration by the way when you restore that you also permanently -- all your songs -- the -- copy the data off it and use yeah every pot. I love that program it's free it runs on windows macros -- lyrics to copy music off of it if you don't have -- anywhere else. And it just it happens actually people like wipe out there yeah all the music on their iPod yet. what we were talking about earlier. And back about songs using your iPod kind of is an external hard drive. And then they they know all liars sort of factory settings -- to buy music The diyMod: Ultimate Audio or a Dead iPod - Systm Mon, 2 Jun 2008The diyMod skips the headphone amp in your iPod to get pure audio straight from the source... this is one of the toughest mods we've ever attempted! More from | ipod found at 0:38, 1:17, 2:21, 4:09, 4:46 How this goes together we're gonna crack open your iPod . We're gonna get to the tax we're gonna -- a little tiny wires to a source from attack we gotta give the signal care on -- as little tiny wires away out like your headphone Jack or your dock connector. And yeah we've got to figure out where going to put this caps in the lines most likely in a doctorate dock connector outside your iPod put it all back together. And remember this requires an amplifier between the iPod in your headphones or you can use it to power. You know your amplifier in your home stereo. Remember if you're not ready for this watch than video don't start this project because this is pretty hardcore. Let's start out -- opening an iPod whether it's something like this little tiny iPod . source and that means better audio file quality. Come and and your iPod coming up today on system. What in the system I'm Patrick Norton we didn't have enough. Last week -- little tiny wires the DIY not just for fun we're gonna hack into an old iPod . And deliver with a lot of people considered the ultimate audio file hardware hack for an iPod use for the external amplifier somethin' like -- where is that they headroom amplifier gotten this case here. Let me make this you're talking about little tiny chips that are cramped inside. Of your iPod the -- bypasses the answer did you direct output from the facts on this particular nano something that the folks at some this and if you're not willing to screw up. And break your iPod do not do this -- let's talk about the tools are gonna its primary tool is a spider to plastic or metal and doppler dock connector you -- mod the willingness to break your iPod . Let's go over sort of 32 version. is busted up I think this is a second or third generation iPod they can third generation. They're pretty much a couple of things that are standard. They'll have a plastic topic contains the control budget box might fix it wherever it came from -- crack the iPod this is always terrifying moment right so you're looking for the layer between plastic and steel yet this budget that -- Angeles Not your voice you're gonna let's get back to cracking open the iPod to me to get -- good -- that. Let's take a moment to thank one of our sponsors the united states air another something the steel ones are less likely to you more your iPod . Or the ST -- plastic spiders are less likely tomorrow your iPod . The steel ones are -- a lot easier to get. and there is a series of metal clips on the inside this iPod back. That the plastic see these plastic clips here it is just happened place and that. Now if you -- the case have a nice clean -- this is a pretty old pretty. Abuse iPod but the -- is still looking pretty. Not damaged. pockets of this. Not only do they sell replacement parts for your iPod or iPhone or even your MacBook and MacBook probably have these very very excellent I fix it dot com slash guide and -- hear they're gone for Macs iphones and iPods or click on iPods. And look at that so the first generation iPod original the second generation third generation and at this point I think we count me. Third generation. Don't leads the other have cracked open not -- it is speaks clearing -- dead third generation iPod and which okay it was a fabulous experience and one of these you notice something is lots and lots of tiny preachers attached to the us. So let's just say the bigger the iPod generally speaking -- less. Painful lead -- reestablish going to be so I mean you're basically talking abouts. Some horrible connectors so this is that this is to of that connector on that third generation iPod right there. And the equivalent connector on this one is something old. Like. This and they know he'd seen that little ribbon Hot Topics Forum Entries With This Topic Thread: Transferring Songs from iPod to Computer ... Thread: Transferring Songs from iPod to Computer View Single Post ...there's actually a decent Winamp plugin that allows you to access your iPod - guessing there are similar plugins for other players like... 2009-12-10, 9:19:00 PM by Thread: How to transfer mp3 from ipod to laptop ... Thread: How to transfer mp3 from ipod to laptop View Single Post ...Post Re: How to transfer mp3 from ipod to laptop Hey, The easy way to transfer MP3 from iPod to laptop is as follows: ... 2009-12-05, 10:02:00 AM by Thread: Transferring Songs from iPod to Computer ... Thread: Transferring Songs from iPod to Computer View Single Post ...Default Transferring Songs from iPod to Computer Does anyone...that allows you to transfer songs from an old iPod to a new computer? Reply With... 2009-12-07, 5:52:00 PM by

paizo.com Recent Posts in Modus' Journal [Immora's Curse of the Crimson Throne campaign] paizo.com Recent Posts in Modus' Journal [Immora's Curse of the Crimson Throne campaign] 2008-11-22T00:49:02Z 2008-11-22T00:49:02Z Re: Campaign Journals: Modus' Journal [Immora's Curse of the Crimson Throne campaign] Modus Sharn (alias of thelesuit) 2008-11-22T00:48:59Z 2008-11-22T00:48:32Z <p><b>Oathday, 17 Desnus 4708</b> <br /> stop whatever he might plan. No, Barvasi will keep.</p> <p>[Spoiler omitted]</p> <p>The house on Lancet Street (Zellara’s old place) needs a lot of work. We don’t yet have title to the property but we are working on making that happen. Aula doesn’t think Zellara has any living descendants. It would be nice if we could turn her place into something befitting her memory. I think Aula wants to set up a storefront to sell some of her father’s wares. Apparently Master Wintrex isn’t well received in most quarters and having a shop that didn’t obviously bear his name might aide his fortunes. I think Crispin wants to open a pub. All I want is a place to call my own. My father was never able to aspire to much more than a shared tenement room in Bridgefront. None of my grandparents ever had the means to do more than rent or squat. And after my father left…well I was lucky to eat regularly. I wouldn’t call living with the succession of my mother’s paramours secure. And after her addictions wore her down to the point none would have her…we didn’t even have that. If nothing else Gaedren Lamm has insured I won’t have to go back to that. How quickly my fortunes have changed. I catch my reflection sometimes and I’m not sure who it is.</p> <p>I was doing some cleaning on the main floor this morning – mostly sifting through the junk to see if any of it was salvageable. Cleaning, and watching Corvis. He had cornered a rat behind some old burnt boxes. I think he was just playing with it, as he always knew exactly where the rat would appear next. Of all of us he was probably the happiest to be leaving Eel’s End. When we got him out of there Amber and I carefully examined him. I don’t think pseudodragons have the same concept of time as humans, but the scars on his hide showed how ever long his captivity to the Spider King had been it hadn’t been pleasant. He seems to be recovering well enough – but nervous doesn’t begin to express his demeanor. I think the thing he enjoys most is spreading his wings and taking to the air. He is engaging to watch and inordinately proud of himself. He is still a little unsure after his confinement in that iron cage, but he is improving. I won’t be sad if he takes flight and decides not to return, but so far he seems content with my company. I wouldn’t call him a pet by any measure – I’m not sure what he is though.</p> <p>I’m also not sure what to think of the rest of the group. What are we? Are we an adventuring party now? I never thought of myself as adventurous – but I suppose as a group we have certainly grown bold. Individually any one of the perils we have faced would have eaten us alive. We are stronger when we are together – but is that enough? Already I can feel each of us pulling in different directions. Aula is drawn to her magic and obligations to her family. Crispin is bound to his god. Amber has more in common with her ally cats than with most people. And Lem seems only to be using us as a cover for her scams and thievery. Am I any better? For now I think common cause unites us; but it would take little to fracture us entirely.</p> <p>The others had gathered at Number 3 Lancet as well. Even though it is little more than a shell it seems more welcoming than the barracks at the Citadel where we are subject to the unfriendly glares of the Guard. Aula and Crispin joined me in what was once Zellara’s parlor where I taking a break and watching Corvis. Aula explained that if we wanted to legally claim Zellara’s townhouse we needed to fill out the proper forms with the Properties Bureau and tender a significant portion of the property’s value. We had pooled 400gp each – but that didn’t nearly cover the down payment. We agreed that we might be able to secure a loan from the Temple of Abadar. I was donning my new embroidered robe when an out of breath Guardsmen arrived at No. 3. Given his anxiety I shucked my new robe and eased into my old, torn affair – the Temple of Abadar would have to wait.</p> <p>“The Field Marshal needs you urgently,” he sputtered. “You must come at once.”</p> <p>Crispin summoned the others. We slung the exhausted guard between us and made all due haste to the Citadel.</p> <p>Our summoning to the Citadel wasn’t much of a surprise. The streets had been in a major state of agitation since the latest rumors surfaced. According to most, the Curse of the Crimson Throne was still active; our late king already dying of the leprosy, had been poisoned. Regicide was a good a reason as any to rile the mobs to violence. Wild talk ran rampant in the streets. Strange figures in red masks had been seen in the city. Neolandus Kalepopolis the Castle Seneschal had mysteriously died in the riots. It was only a matter of time before something fanned the smoldering embers of the city into flame. Under the wary eyes of the duty Guardsmen we were conducted into Field Marshal Kroft’s office.</p> <p>Kroft was quick in getting to the point. She had a lead on the King’s poisoner, a portrait painter named Trinia Sabor. She had apparently conspired with a guard named Sandricks to slip poison into the King’s tea. Sandricks had fallen off the wall of the Castle during questioning, but not before naming Trinia as his coconspirator. With all the violence in the streets and the Hellknights enforcing their own brand of “peace”, Kroft needed us to get to Trinia before some lynch mob found her. Her flat was at 42 Moon Street in Midlands right in the middle of the worst of the current street mob activity. She needed us to get into Midlands, find Trinia, and bring her back safely to the Citadel.</p> <p>“I want to be absolutely sure of Trinia’s role in Eodred’s death,” Kroft assured us. “She’ll be safe here at the Citadel and we won’t have her dying during questioning.”</p> <p>I knew it was going to be a busy day when I woke up, but I didn’t know it would get this busy so quickly.</p> <p>We were all pretty familiar with the streets of Midland. Moon Street wasn’t far from the University of Korvosa. We made our way in haste through the riotous streets. We were doing okay until we got to Gryphon Row. A number of the little shops had broken windows and there was some indiscriminant looting and arson. But a crowd gathered around a young Shoanti boy stopped us cold. They had beaten him to the ground and were about to string him up over a broken shop sign frame. None of us were comfortable letting this continue. As an outsider myself I’ve always had a soft spot for the Shoanti – on the streets as a boy I had even picked up some of their fragmented lingo. With practice born from years living in the streets, Amber and I eel’ed through the crowd into the packed center. He was being held by two brutes – looked like stevedores or porters – and being beaten by another. I chain-stroked the first and he kissed the cobbles. Amber shrieked in the face of the beater which rocked him back on his heels. And I pulled the boy from the last one’s grasp before he realized his fun was at an end. Lem ascended the side of a nearby building and her barks and growls quickly got the crowd’s attention. Amber grabbed the boy and sheltered him while I eased the mob back with my whirling battle chain. Lem dropped into the crowd snarling, biting, and threatening all sorts of mayhem with her blades. It took them little time to realize that despite her size she was mad enough to take them all on. They rapidly dispersed to find easier prey. Amber made sure the boy was alright.</p> <p>“Don’t worry boy, we won’t hurt you,” I told him.</p> <p>“Thank you dark one. I will not forget your kindness,” the boy answered. He then darted off into an alley. Lem thought to give chase, but we convinced her that we had other business to be about.</p> <p>Moon Street was quiet. An old woman sat on the stoop in front of Number 42. She turned out to be the landlord and we told her we were her to see on of her tenants: Trinia Sabor. She indicated that Trinia was in #C on the third floor. On the way in another of the tenants told us that Trinia hadn’t been home in days. We told him we would try her door anyway. He grumbled but left us to our business. We made our way up to the third floor and stopped outside the door to #C. Amber continued upward to the Shingles to make sure Trinia didn’t try to slip away over the rooftops. Listening at the door we heard nothing.</p> <p>“Miss Trinia Sabor, we are here from the Korvosan Guard,” Crispin barked as he banged on the door. “We would like to speak with you.”</p> <p>Lem and I winced, “So much for the element of surprise.” Lem made short work of the lock and we advanced into the room.</p> <p>It was a small artist’s flat. On the far side of the room Trinia appeared to still be asleep in her bed. She must be a sound sleeper not to have heard us. I approached the bed and as I reached to wake her my hand passed through her slumbering form.</p> <p>“It’s an illusion!”</p> <p>We heard scrambling on the side of the building outside the window.</p> <p>“She’s going for the roof and the Shingles!”</p> <p>I hesitate to describe what transpired next. It was a roof top chase through the Shingles. It became rapidly apparent that several of us were not prepared for such a venture. Crispin in his heavy armor. Aula with her lack of physical prowess. And me with my apparent inability to stay affixed to a sloping rooftop. While Trinia was easily able to outdistance the three of us; Lem and Amber were another story. Between Aula’s magic, Amber’s cajoling, and Lem’s intimidating manner (and purely awesome leaping ability for one so small) they were able to corner Trinia on the roof of a haberdashery and convince her to cease her headlong flight.</p> <p>Trinia confessed that while she was involved with the guard Hendricks, she had nothing to do with the poisoning of King Eodred. She seemed sincere. I have met many convincing liars in my day and Trinia was not one of them. We believed her. The mysterious circumstances around Hendricks’ death increased our suspicion that other parties were using Trinia as a scapegoat. We needed her to live long enough to be truth-read and perhaps expose the plotters. Crispin and Aula wanted to return Trinia to Field Marshal Kroft straight-away. The rest of us counseled that this might not be the best plan. We compromised by agreeing to take her to the Lancet Street house. She would be off the streets there, safe from the mobs, and presumably safe from whomever was behind this plot to frame her.</p> <p>By sticking to the back streets and less travelled neighborhoods we were easily able to avoid the mobs running amok in Midlands. As we darted across Nightingale Court the cobblestones in front of us erupted in a fury. We were tossed around like rag dolls as an enraged otyugh burst forth from the Vaults below! Trinia was hurled to the far side of the Court and down with a cobble to the head. The rest of us picked ourselves up and made ready to engage the vile smelly poop-eating beast. A tarnished identification tag around the otyugh’s forelimb proclaimed this one to be named, “Ralfy”. </p> <p>Ralfy spat out a cobble. “Fresh meat!” he roared. I bashed the beast in the side with my battlechain. Crispin darted underneath a slimy tentacle and skewered the otyugh. Ralfy flailed rather ineffectually at us as Amber darted around to the prone Trinia.</p> <p>“She seems okay. I’m going to get us out of here,” Amber stammered and began casting.</p> <p>Aula singed the creature with her magic and both Crispin and I dealt it another blow. It flailed at us and gave Crispin a bite. Ralfy seemed to be tiring of this game. “Hurts!” he whimpered. Magical mist enveloped Nightingale Court making it hard to see.</p> <p>“Back beast!” I shouted at him, “Back into your hole!” I clouted him again. Crispin poked him. Ralfy wailed and slunk back into the Vaults.</p> <p>“Hurts bad,” groaned Ralfy, quickly retreating out of range of our weapons.</p> <p>Crispin and I shared a look. “Either we are getting better or those aren’t as tough as everyone seems to think,” quipped the war priest.</p> <p>We gathered up the rest of the party and made haste out of the area least our din draw the curiosity of one of the roving mobs.</p> <p>Number 3 Lancet was quiet and mobs hadn’t ventured this far south. We settled Trinia. We decided that Aula and I would go the Citadel to talk to Marshall Kroft while the others stayed at No. 3 insuring Trinia’s safety.</p> <p>Marshall Kroft saw us immediately, but she wasn’t terribly happy with what we had to say.</p> <p>“Trinia Sabor must be questioned by the Guard – we can best determine her guilt,” Marshall Kroft insisted.</p> <p>“She doesn’t trust that you can keep her safe Field Marshall,” I replied. “Look at what happened to the Guard Hendricks.”</p> <p>“True,” Kroft steepled her fingers and looked over them at us, “you can see the quandary this puts me in. Trinia needs to be under Guard protection.”</p> <p>Aula looked pained. She really hated to disappoint Kroft.</p> <p>“Maybe we can find a compromise,” I ventured. “Does the Guard maintain any safe-houses? Places away from the Citadel?”</p> <p>Kroft brightened. “Yes, as a matter of fact we do maintain a place outside the city where we occasionally stow witnesses we don’t want to bring into the Citadel.”</p> <p>We arranged to have Grau Soldado and one of Kroft’s lieutenants accompany us back to No. 3. Kroft also provided a Guardsmen’s livery for us to disguise Trinia in to get her out of the city – something Lem had suggested when we first got the assignment. I mentioned to Grau that we had encountered his old master, Vencarlo Orisini who had spoken well of him.</p> <p>We headed back to No. 3, convinced Trinia of Marshall Kroft’s noble intentions, and got her into her Guard disguise. The trip outside the city was uneventful. The Guard’s safe-house turned out to be a small working farm. We settled Trinia, Grau, and the Lieutenant and departed.</p> <p>For now Trinia is safe. I hope we have thwarted someone’s plans but I can’t help but think that a larger game is being played and not all of the players have shown their hands.</p> Oathday, 17 Desnus 4708... Modus Sharn (alias of thelesuit) 2008-11-22T00:48:32Z Re: Campaign Journals: Modus' Journal [Immora's Curse of the Crimson Throne campaign] Moonbeam (alias of Denek) 2008-11-01T13:52:01Z 2008-11-01T13:52:00Z <p>I like the concept of Amber's character. It's very original!</p> I like the concept of Amber's character. It's very original! Moonbeam (alias of Denek) 2008-11-01T13:52:00Z Re: Campaign Journals: Modus' Journal [Immora's Curse of the Crimson Throne campaign] OroboroSteve 2008-10-30T21:20:33Z 2008-10-30T21:20:27Z <p><So, here's some POV from Amber. As noted previously, she's known as the cat lady, but she doesn't actually particularly specialise in cats, though her closest friend certainly is one. Her philosophy in life is still evolving in my own mind a bit, she's very tied to the city, homeless - though she basically considers the city itself to be her home, the buildings and alleys simply rooms and hallways to her - and her care extending to all the fallen, "unwanted" and other otherwise uncared-for in the city.></p> ...</p> <p>The circumstances that have brought the five of us together are odd. All of us gathered by the now-known-to-be-dead Zelara: Crispin, whose fortunes seem to have been distinctly better than mine were after escaping Lamm's clutches, having been taken in by the church of Cayden Cailean. Aula, who seems still to dwell under the cloud of her departure from the Academae. Lem, who lost her lover to Lamm's plots. Modus, whose daughter was sold into slavery or worse by Lamm and who he still seeks. Then there's myself...</p> <p>I was twelve when I finally escaped Gaedren Lam's control. That final beating, the one which left me battered <br /> and broken was too much for my young mind. Until that time, I had accepted the beatings as "deserved," that I had done something wrong and that the beating was my own fault. But none of them had ever been like that one. It took me weeks to recover, and all for the mistake of actually trying to help one of the other Lamms. I never saw him again after that day...</p> <p>As I recovered under Lam's assistant's "care" I made a point to downplay how well I was actually recovering - I didn't have to act very much - but finally allowed them to think I was *just* well enough to be put back to work. Thinking I was still too hobbled, the guards were understandably careless. I used to wonder sometimes how long it took to notice I had sneaked away...</p> <p>I can't remember a time prior to that when Lamm wasn't nearby. I don't even remember who my parents were, or if they even still live, though for the past 26 years, the city itself has been my mother and my father. Korvosa certainly believes in "tough love," but provide and nurture it has. For someone willing to take the time to look, sustenance is to be found nearly everywhere. Likewise, clothing and other materials are tossed without a though daily from numerous places. People talk about shortages, poverty, and so forth. I call it an unwillingness to open ones eyes. The city provides, it is up to us to take what we're given and make use of it.</p> <p>I learned this lesson quickly after I ran from Lam. I learned the places to hide from his people, the reliable places to look for food. I learned to observe the other denizens of the streets, humanoid and otherwise, and identify safe shelter. In time, I became more and more attuned to the pulse of the city, how it breathes, how it moves, how it lives. Like a dog's hair, it shed unnecessary parts over time. Like a cat's whiskers, it's people feel what's going on around it more than one's own eyes and ears. And like a jigsaw shark's teeth it ravenously consumes the unwary.</p> <p>I still remember what it was like in those first weeks after I ran from Lam, though. I watch for the young, the new, the unwary, and help set them straight. But others before me took me under their wing as well. I learned to read from an acolyte of the temple to Irori, though I was a poor, and irregular student. Old Man Whitebeard taught me how to defend myself, how to get away from the "teeth." Goblin's grandmother taught me how to climb, how to find hard-to-reach places, and how to stalk. But the city - it taught me how to survive: taught me how to call on the creatures of the city to aid me, and taught me how to aid them. It taught me how to move through the crowds, and how to use its structures to my advantage. It taught me to mold its very elements; the air, the moisture, the wood, the stone. It teaches me every day, and unlike before, I am a very willing student...</p> <p>I must admit, I took great pleasure in seeing Lam's body lying dead beneath his factory. Death in the city is something that I am unfamiliar with - like skin the city sloughs off parts of itself over time, but it is always replaced by fresh. I take no real pleasure or sadness in it - death in the city just is. One tries not to get too attached to anyone or anything, though Goblin and his predecessors have taught me that everyone still needs "family." The city may be my parent, but Goblin is my younger sibling. Lam, however, that was a death I felt *pleasure* in. Like an infection, if you can't cure it, cut it off. In this case, we lanced the boil.</p> <p>Since then, though, circumstances seem to have kept me associated with those who helped with the surgery. We kept together when the city began to riot with the death of the King (if they really knew how little power they have over the city...) right after we left Lam's place, for safety. We were recruited as a group to help the guard who was badly overwhelmed right afterwards. We helped bring one of their own back to them, I wasn't sure why at first, but when we later learned that his men had been using their meat-donation operation to potentially distribute the remains of their political opponents, well, that had to stop. Then we were asked to find information to incriminate a man from Cheliax who intended some sort of harm on the city, something I couldn't allow - I must admit, much of the "higher" things my companions and others have talked about recently has been "over my head." I think my companions must think me somewhat simple or "touched." I admit, I don't know all the fancy words they do, but let's see them them survive in this city for long without all their coin and equipment - but I do sense something sinister going on: Korvosa's breath has quickened, it's heart races, and I get the feeling that the city gathers us to fight a new infection.</p> <p>One possible sign of this: I had recently been "accosted" by one of the city's "nobles," and sought the aid of a local crow to help me "deliver" my opinion of him. This bird refused to go near his estate however, it claimed that the air over the estate "eats." Further inquiry with the locals near the estate clarified things, in that there is some sort of ward covering the estate, taknig anything that come in by ground or by air, and essentially chews it up and spits it back out. Maybe Aula can help determine what is going on there.</p> <p>Interesting times, indeed.....<... The circumstances that have brought the five of us together are odd. All of us gathered by the now-known-to-be-dead Zelara: Crispin, whose fortunes seem to have been distinctly better than mine were... OroboroSteve 2008-10-30T21:20:27Z Re: Campaign Journals: Modus' Journal [Immora's Curse of the Crimson Throne campaign] Moonbeam (alias of Denek) 2008-10-30T21:07:46Z 2008-10-30T21:07:46Z <p>Again, that was really fun to read! You were lucky to escape with your lives, I think. :)</p> <p>When it's not Lem putting you in trouble, it's Aula. You are in for a rough ride, my friend!</p> Again, that was really fun to read! You were lucky to escape with your lives, I think. :) When it's not Lem putting you in trouble, it's Aula. You are in for a rough ride, my friend! Moonbeam (alias of Denek) 2008-10-30T21:07:46Z Re: Campaign Journals: Modus' Journal [Immora's Curse of the Crimson Throne campaign] Modus Sharn (alias of thelesuit) 2008-10-30T16:42:35Z 2008-10-30T16:39:21Z <p><b>Fireday, 11 Desnus 4708</b> <br />.</p> <p>I lit out early to go check on Elfrila. I was worried that something might have happened to her during the riots and unrest. She shares a flat in Ridgefield not far from where she works as a seamstress. About a block away from her place I ran into Mentasudo, one of her neighbors toting around a crossbow. He explained that the people in the neighborhood had pulled together to man a barricade during the riots over the past couple of nights. Elfrila had been among those assisting and was fine.</p> <p>It looked like they had some sort of communal kitchen going. Elfrila’s lithe dancer’s figure and characteristic scarlet dress weren’t hard to pick out among the volunteers. Elfrila rushed to me and I swept her up tight. She seemed sound and whole though tired. I assured her I was fine. We found a bench out of the way to talk.</p> <p>I explained that I had found a new job – something that paid better than working for Old Yendoui. The new job was a bit more dangerous than boating but paid much better. My partners were mostly reliable – I didn’t want her to worry. I’m not sure she was convinced. I also told her that I was going to be in and out over the next while. She gave me a look. I tried to give her 50gp to cover some of her expenses. She made me take back half and asked how my mom was doing. I didn’t answer. I smiled and asked her if she had time to fit me for a new outfit. I told her I was good for it. She smiled shyly and we went back to her flat.</p> <p><b>Starday, 12 Desnus 4708</b> <br /> Another early morning at the butcher shop. I really loath this work. I like giving folks the meat. Though I can’t say that telling them it comes from the Queen means much to them. But preparing the meat is an arduous task. I need a bath. Parnes likes it well enough.</p> <p>Yesterday evening I managed to catch Cohlrack the Armourer in his shop. I traded in my old chainshirt for one of better quality. I got a fitted padded haqueton and a light leather surcoat dyed to match my vambraces – in green of course. The new armour doesn’t seem to bind under the arms like my old one did and it feels better across my shoulders. Cohlrack, or rather his lead journeyman, Ashorn does really fine work. I took a couple shots from Apprentice Luthvol’s padded sword and didn’t feel a thing. That kid has a mean hook-rap. I think his father sold him short by buying him an apprenticeship to an armourer – even if Cohlrack puts mail on the guard. I can imagine the look on Luthvol’s face if I told him I was working for Field Marshal Kroft.</p> <p>Down from Cohlrack’s I stopped by Satvalmar’s Arms and purchased one of his specialty pieces: a real fine rante battle chain.</p> <p>I laid out some coin among some folks I know. I want to see what there is to learn about Glorio Arkona and maybe this cousin of his, Vimondé.</p> <p>We had an odd visitor while we were closing down the shop. A shoemaker calling himself Master Pekka wanted to speak with Baldrago about a particular job. A couple months ago a gnome had opened a shop just down the street from Pekka’s shop and Pekka’s business had been dropping off since. Crispin and I were manning the counter, mostly just considering where we might go for a pint of dark. Crispin shrugged as if to say, “This is yours to handle.” I asked Master Pekka if he had spoken to the gnome, he said, “Yes”, he had tried to convince the gnome to leave and been unsuccessful. Now he needed professional help and he had heard that Baldrago at All the World’s Meats was a fellow who could assist.</p> <p>“Baldrago is no longer in that business,” I informed Master Pekka, “but my associate and I might be able to assist you.”</p> <p>“Oh…I understand completely,” Master Pekka squeaked nervously.</p> <p>“We are now in a new era of cooperation and harmony. Let’s close up shop and go pay a visit to your gnome friend.”</p> <p>The three of us made our way down to the Slopes ward and the shop of Sketcherheelindrome the Cobbler. Crispin and I were greeted by a very effervescent gnome with purple dread-locks whose ends had been wrapped in tinkling brass bells. The proprietor also stood five feet tall, and wore outrageously long green and orange pinstriped trousers. His torso was normal gnome sized. He was wearing stilts.</p> <p>“Sketcher” effused, “They are elevator shoes! Everyone should want some. Aren’t they great?” Noticing that Crispin and I probably wouldn’t need such, “Well, maybe not you fine fellows.” He noted Master Pekka, “Hey, you are the guy that told me to shut down my business…these are just the thing for you.”</p> <p>He then proceeded to show us all his other innovative shoe designs. We attempted to put forward Master Pekka’s case to him, but he wasn’t having any of it. He did have more shoes to show us – and the design flaws had been worked out of most of them. Amid shoes with vomit bladders for those who don’t have any place to puke in polite company we departed and walked Master Pekka back to his shop.</p> <p>We had several suggestions for Master Pekka: diversifying his inventory to appeal to a wider base of customers, specializing in lower quality boots for the working man, etc. Crispin suggested boots with a reinforced toe for those who have a tendency to get into bar fights.</p> <p>“Master Pekka,” I said, “This gnome is a novelty. He makes really nice shoes but either he is going to blow himself up innovating or people are going to get tired of his zany antics. You just need to hold on till then.”</p> <p>“So you aren’t going to convince him to move along?” Master Pekka inquired.</p> <p>“No. Like I said. We are now in an era of cooperation and understanding. We don’t want to rub anyone out.”</p> <p>“Well, I can keep a secret and I won’t tell anyone about what happened to Baldrago.”</p> <p>“Yeah, you do that Master Pekka.”</p> <p><b>Sunday, 13 Desnus 4708</b> <br /> Our morning routine of handing out free meat to the poor and desperate was interrupted by the arrival of a couple of Guardsmen. They explained we were needed down at the Citadel and they were here to relieve us. We quickly complied and made our way to Citadel Volshyenek. The “we” did not include Lem as we hadn’t seen the halfling for several days.</p> <p>At the Citadel we were ushered into the office of Field Marshal Kroft. She had an esteemed visitor, Master Vencarlo Orisini, the most practiced and revered swordsmen in all of Korvosa. Together they explained the situation at hand and our role in assisting.</p> <p>The Chelaxin Ambassador, Darvane Gios Ampray was planning on calling on a trade embargo against Korvosa from Cheliax. There was good reason to believe that Ambassador Ampray was acting out of purely financial self interest – with Korvosa in disorder he would be able to buy land on the cheap and set himself up in style. The Ambassador was known to frequent Eel’s End, Old Korvosa’s most vile den of iniquity. Eel’s End was run by Devargo Barvasi, the Spider King of Old Korvosa. Kroft and Orisini felt that Barvasi might have “dirt” on Ambassador Ampray and for a sum would be willing to part with it. Of course Barvasi would never deal with known members of the Korvosan Guard, which is where we came in. We would venture to Eel’s End and purchase anything Barvasi held on Ambassador Ampray. With such ammunition Ambassador Ampray could be dissuaded from calling for an embargo on the city. Field Marshal Kroft handed us a bag of gold coins. We could keep anything not used to bribe Barvasi. She didn’t encourage us to kill Barvasi, but indicated that the Guard would not take any action should something happen to him.</p> <p>We accompanied Master Orisini across the city to Old Korvosa. For an old guy he seemed pretty agile and he couldn’t keep his eyes off our pretty Aula. I had to chuckle – from what she has said I don’t think he is her type. He did thank us for helping to get Grau Soldado back into uniform and away from his wine. We went our separate ways once we hit Wave Street in Bridgefront. I have no doubt we will be seeing Master Orisini again.</p> <p>Finding Eel’s End wasn’t terribly hard. I had been here often enough to retrieve my mother from her drug induced degradation at the <i>Dragon’s Breath</i>. Enzi and Ustarin were on gate duty at the end of the wharf. This place never closes.</p> <p>“Your mother isn’t here Modus,” Ustarin informed me.</p> <p>“We’re here to see Barvasi,” I told him.</p> <p>Ustarin’s eyes got large, “Go on in, you know where to find him.”</p> <p>We wound our way through the milling crowd, even with unrest in the streets Korvosans would not be denied their pursuit of pleasure. We boarded the rotting hulk of the <i>Eel’s End</i> itself and made our way aft. I didn’t recognize the goon at the door. I decided they should be Lumpy and Big Nose.</p> <p>“We are here to see Barvasi,” I repeated for this pair.</p> <p>“Do you have an appointment with High Majesty?” queried Big Nose.</p> <p>“No, we have business.”</p> <p>“You ain’t gettin’ in without an appointment,” Big Nose intoned.</p> <p>“Well maybe we could leave Mr. Barvasi a note,” I ventured.</p> <p>“What do I look like? His secretary,” Big Nose shot back. Lumpy just grinned idiotically.</p> <p>“How about this,” I said proffering a platinum piece, “will this get me an appointment?”</p> <p>Pocketing the coin, Big Nose pushed the door open, “Go right in sir.”</p> <p>The place was dark, barely lit by some ship’s lanterns hung around the room. It was covered in spider webs. Barvasi slouched in a padded leather throne on a dais on the far side. Large bloated spiders scuttled over the Spider King. I don’t much care for spiders, I had seen more than my share growing up in the Shingles of Bridgefront. Barvasi appeared to have some affinity for them. Off to the side eight or so thugs loafed at a couple of long tables. Next to Barvasi’s throne hung an iron cage in which a very pitiful pseudodragon cowered.</p> <p>“Who are you and what do you want?” sneered the Spider King. It was show time.</p> <p>As best I was able I spelled out our desires and the compensation we were willing to provide.</p> <p>“Information of that sort is very valuable. It is going to require something more than just coins. I need entertainment,” Barvasi explained.</p> <p>“Entertainment,” I asked.</p> <p>“Yes. Knivesies!!” roared Barvasi. There was an accompanying cheer from his men.</p> <p>“The rules are simple. Two men with their left wrists tied together stand atop a table. Between them is a knife and a pile of gold coins. Fall off the table, you lose. Die or be knocked unconscious, you lose. Man with the most coins wins. Game ends if any coins touch the floor. Simple.” Barvasi beckoned one of his men, “Urik here will meet your man.”</p> <p>Crispin and I debated momentarily which of us would face Urik in “knivesies”. Scissors beats paper and Crispin was selected. He stripped out of his armor and mounted the table. Crispin and Urik had their wrists lashed together and we all gathered around to watch the entertainment.</p> <p>The odds were declared to be even and I put 50gp on Crispin.</p> <p>The action started with a bark from Barvasi, “Go!” Quick as lightning Urik had the knife in his hand. This didn’t look good. It was fast and furious. Crispin took a couple gashes. Urik gathered up some coins. Crispin gathered some coins and suffered a gash in turn – Urik was scoring some really good hits and blood blossomed on Crispin’s chest and shoulder. Urik gathered more coins. There was little Crispin could do to stop him – he called upon Cayden Cailean to staunch his bleeding. My eyes were on the contest – in my gut I knew it should have been me up there instead of Crispin – we weren’t impressing Barvasi.</p> <p>Aula’s eyes were elsewhere. She was intently studying the pseudodragon in the cage. It beckoned to all of us, almost as if we could hear it’s pleading in our minds.</p> <p>Crispin decided to go all out. He grabbed up another handful of coins, took another gash for his troubles, and kicked the remaining coins to the floor.</p> <p>Barvasi shouted, “Coins down – we are stopped!”</p> <p>We helped Crispin from the table as the coins were counted. “You have won my intrepid friends. We find you entertaining. You will have what you desire.” Barvasi departed into the bowels of the ship.</p> <p>I collected my winnings. Aula fixed us with a look as much to say as we wouldn’t be leaving without the pseudodragon. This would get messy.</p> <p>Barvasi returned with a letter, “The good Ambassador has made himself popular with a certain Chelaxin lady. I’m certain that this letter will provide whatever leverage you need.” He proffered it to Crispin, “You play the knivesies well. Our business is done, yes?”</p> <p>“How much for your pseudodragon Your Majesty?” I queried.</p> <p>“For him? I like him much. The spiders like to bite him. 5000 gold pieces. On this there is no haggling,” replied Barvasi.</p> <p>“He is wearing out Your Majesty, surely you could part with him for some lesser sum?”</p> <p>“Then he will die and I will feed him to my spiders and get a new one,” Barvasi said with a grin.</p> <p>Crispin completed donning his armor and Aula fixed us all with a telling look. I loosened my battle chain.</p> <p>“We will have the pseudodragon sir,” Aula demanded.</p> <p>“What is the meaning of this? Do you know who you are talking to? I am Devargo Barvasi, the Spider King of Old Korvosa. I am not to be trifled with or annoyed by pissants such as you,” Barvasi declared hotly while eyeing us with well reasoned suspicion.</p> <p>I looked to Aula, “This is not going to go well,” and with that I whipped out my battle chain and struck Barvasi in the teeth. Things got dicey from there.</p> <p>Barvasi triggered some sort of trap door that nearly dropped me into a spider pit on the deck below. Aula set off a spell with all sorts of scintillating lights that seemed to drop a large number of the thugs into some sort of stupor. Crispin moved to try and stick Barvasi with his rapier, and Amber threw her cat at some guy.</p> <p>We held our own pretty well against Barvasi’s thugs. Aula barred the door so we didn’t have the entire deck rushing down our throats. But Crispin couldn’t seem to land a blow on Barvasi.</p> <p>Most of the thugs got dropped to the floor – but their fellows outside rapidly broke through the door. Crispin and I attempted to team up on Barvasi, but he got wise and jumped into the spider pit. Amber summoned up a huge rat to keep the thugs at the door busy. That didn’t hold them long at all and soon Amber was fighting for her life. Crispin and Aula retreated through a door into the lower deck dragging the cage containing the pseudodragon.</p> <p>More thugs rushed in, one gave Amber’s cat Goblin a terrific boot across the room – I’m not sure why she keeps putting that little beast into danger. Amber summoned up a concealing mist and we were able to follow our compatriots below decks.</p> <p>Our hope had been to find some other way out of the ship and danger from below decks. What we found instead were a half a dozen locked doors and an open hatch into the bilges. We stopped momentarily to have Crispin invoke the healing aura of Cayden. Unfortunately it seemed like Barvasi got caught in the effect as well.</p> <p>“Sweet like Mother’s milk,” Barvasi chuckled from out of the darkness. We had no response.</p> <p>We tried the doors – one smelled like it went to a Shiver lab, another probably to some sort of brig. We found the privies. And we found the forward stores which proved to be trapped with all sorts of nefarious devices. We chose not to investigate them further. But we found no way out. There was a constant scrabbling that seemed to come from within the walls. Damn spiders.</p> <p>In the dim light of the passage we noticed one of the doors start to open – we readied ourselves, but there was no way we could have anticipated what we found. Crispin booted the door open in the face of some strangely spidery humanoid aberration – all spider eyes, spiny hairs, dripping mandibles, and clutching claws. It was surrounded by enormous dream spiders. We bashed it. Sadly this was the exact moment Barvasi chose to strike, out of the darkness of the passage behind us he appeared and struck down Amber another huge spider at his back. He rapidly closed on Aula and I while Crispin valiantly fought the spider-man. Spiders scuttled across the overhead in an attempt to get at us. We dealt with them readily enough, me with my chain and Aula with her fiery beams of magic. Each spider death elicited a bark of consternation from Barvasi, “Those cost money!”</p> <p>The spider-man-thing grew annoyed with Crispin, edged back out of range of his rapier, and spat a huge wad of silky goo at him. He was rapidly covered and rendered immobile. Barvasi rushed in and dealt both Aula and me vicious strikes. This was not going well.</p> <p>The spider-man-thing, who Barvasi had called “Chitters”, hauled the struggling Crispin off into the bowels of the ship to enjoy a meal uninterrupted.</p> <p>Barvasi pulled back, “We will call it even.” Fixing Aula and me with a glare, “You two may have your lives if you leave now.”</p> <p>“Never”, said Aula through clenched teeth, “we will never leave our companions to the likes of you.”</p> <p>“So be it”, spat Barvasi, “I gave you a chance now you die.”</p> <p>More blows were traded, I was wearing fast and I knew Aula had few resources left. We were heartened somewhat as Crispin staggered back into the passage having escaped Chitter’s clutches. But the spider-man scuttled in pursuit. Crispin turned and dispatched the creature with a single blow.</p> <p>As Chitters expired, Barvasi turned away and lowered his blades. “Get out,” he spat over his shoulder, “you have cost me too much. Take your friends and leave and never come back.”</p> <p>We gathered up the fallen Amber, her limp cat, and the caged pseudodragon.</p> <p>“If I ever lay eyes upon the lot of you again, you will draw your last breaths,” threatened Barvasi.</p> <p>He followed us above decks glaring hatred the entire time, but his men let us pass without trouble. Crispin invoked the power of Cayden to halt the bleeding among those fallen thugs we passed – but some would never rise again. We limped out of Eel’s End – we had succeeded in our mission but the cost had been high.</p> Fireday, 11 Desnus 4708. I lit out early to go check on Elfrila. I was worried that... Modus Sharn (alias of thelesuit) 2008-10-30T16:39:21Z Re: Campaign Journals: Modus' Journal [Immora's Curse of the Crimson Throne campaign] Lord Snow 2008-10-30T10:31:32Z 2008-10-30T10:31:32Z . Lord Snow 2008-10-30T10:31:32Z Re: Campaign Journals: Modus' Journal [Immora's Curse of the Crimson Throne campaign] OroboroSteve 2008-10-28T04:43:08Z 2008-10-28T04:43:08Z <p>I'll add some Amber point of view later....</p> <p>Amber hates the cookie timeouts on Paizo's site...</p> I'll add some Amber point of view later.... Amber hates the cookie timeouts on Paizo's site... OroboroSteve 2008-10-28T04:43:08Z Re: Campaign Journals: Modus' Journal [Immora's Curse of the Crimson Throne campaign] thelesuit 2008-10-27T17:23:46Z 2008-10-27T17:22:44Z <div class="messageboardAttribution">Moonbeam wrote:</div><blockquote>. :) </blockquote><p>Modus doesn't actually know too much about his fellow adventurers. <p><b>Lem</b> is a female halfling rogue. She came to Korvosa a couple of years ago with her lover who sought entrance to the Acadamae. He was killed by another student. Lem is capricious and contrary at best.</p> <p><b>Aula Wintrex</b> is a female human wizard. She is a native of Korvosa and at least part Varisian. She left the Acadamae (not sure if she graduated or not) under a cloud of suspicion for the death of another student. Her father is an alchemist and nearly impoverished himself to clear Aula's name. The charges against her were dismissed when the only witness died. Her former lover is a paladin who left Korvosa to serve at Lastwall. Aula can be relied upon to generally be reasonable and forthright.</p> <p><b>Crispin</b> is a human war-priest of Cayden Cailean. He is an orphan who grew up on the streets of Korvosa and for a time was one of Gaedran Lam's "Little Lambs". He is generous and jovial and likes to drink.</p> <p><b>Amber</b> is an human "urban" druid. She also spent some time as a "Little Lamb" which appears to have broken her mind somewhat. She has a feral cat whom she often sends into the heat of battle to attack foes.</p> <p>--I hope this satisfies your curiosity somewhat. And thanks ever so much for your support.</p> <p>CJ</p> Moonbeam wrote. :) Modus doesn't actually know too much about his fellow adventurers. Lem is a female halfling rogue. She came to Korvosa a couple of years ago with... thelesuit 2008-10-27T17:22:44Z Re: Campaign Journals: Modus' Journal [Immora's Curse of the Crimson Throne campaign] Moonbeam (alias of Denek) 2008-10-24T18:14:34Z 2008-10-24T18:14:33Z . :)</p>. :) Moonbeam (alias of Denek) 2008-10-24T18:14:33Z Re: Campaign Journals: Modus' Journal [Immora's Curse of the Crimson Throne campaign] Modus Sharn (alias of thelesuit) 2008-10-23T23:52:32Z 2008-10-23T23:52:26Z <p><b>Oathday, 10 Desnus 4708</b> <br /> my old mentor Urdest had taught me – two story wood construction, lights burning in the windows on the second floor, main entrance on the first floor to a shop front, two side entrance bays opening into a small divided corral of wooden fencing. Wagon in one half the corral. A couple of obvious places to observe the building undetected. It sounded like a card game going on in one of the lit rooms; it looked like someone reading papers in front of a candle in the other. I watched the shop for about half an hour according to the Epochal Tower clock and headed back to the Citadel.</p> <p>We broke our fast in the Citadel’s mess hall and then discussed our plan of attack. I advised everyone that we seemed to far better tactically when we remained together as a group. Beyond that we discussed how several of our number might be able to queue up for free meat. Amber and Crispin, in his tavernkeeper’s apron, might be the best candidates. The morning found the streets much quieter, though there were still signs of unrest. A line had already formed at the door to All the World’s Meats by the time we arrived. Crispin and Amber queued up and the rest of us settled in at a hidden vantage point across the street. Our basic plan was to learn what we could about the interior layout and the number of combatants we might face, but wait until nightfall to carry out our raid. The day was pretty uneventful. Amber and Crispin got their meat – which Crispin took back to the kitchens at the Citadel.</p> <p>After some time, Lem revealed that she knew the butcher shop fairly well. She had had a hand in driving the former owner out of business. In the past she had made several forays into the shop via a movable grate on the slaughterhouse floor down which offal was thrown but which was accessible from the Vaults beneath the streets. Her thefts had been the butcher’s downfall. In any event she could readily guide us to beneath the shop and an entrance that was probably unknown to the former Guardsmen. This was much preferable to bashing in the front or side doors.</p> <p>At dusk we made our way to a sewer outlet along the shores of Northbridge and entered the Vaults beneath the city. It was rough going at first. Most of us had never been down into the Vaults. I had been under the city a couple of times – mostly boyhood adventures and such, once to avoid some toughs I had fallen afoul of. But it was nothing near so foul and vile as this venture. We were following the outflow of a slaughterhouse upstream to the source. The halfling proceeded to get us lost. Aula and I were able to figure out where we should be compared to where we were and we found the vault beneath All the World’s Meat. Beneath the offal grate of the slaughtering room we waited in the muck and filth for the butchers to conclude their business.</p> <p>As we waited we could hear all that transpired above. The sounds coming through the grate indicated something far more sinister than the mere butchery of animals. This was confirmed when human remains rained down upon us from above. The rebel guardsmen were conducting business far more nefarious than just distributing free meat to the populace and inciting them to riot against their sovereign. They were engaged in murder and facilitating cannibalism. Aula dug around in the muck a bit to find proof we could later use and found a partially gnawed human skull. Unfortunately the skull was attached to a rather irate and prodigiously sized reefclaw. The creatures must have found the fare beneath the butcher shop to their liking; they didn’t appreciate our interference though. Lem placed a grappling hook on the grate and scrabbled to safety quickly followed by Aula. The rest of us engaged in a short scuffle with several maddened reefclaws in the muck of the vault. Reefclaws are vicious and difficult to kill. We managed to smash the little bastards, but it was a near thing. We were all grateful to escape up the rope out of the vault.</p> <p>The slaughter room had little of interest for us and seemed to pose no harm. We could hear laughter and activity coming from the rooms above. After a small conference we concluded that Lem and I should sulk around and see what we could find. Behind one door we found a short hall that led into the shop-front and stairs leading upstairs. I stopped at the bottom of the stairs. The stealthy Lem crept to the top of the landing and listened in on the conversation among the card playing rebel Guardsmen. I think that perhaps she got too confident, or our companions were too noisy (Crispin in his splinted armor), for one of the Guards was sent to investigate an errant sound. The Guard stepped right over Lem on his way down the stairs, unfortunately Lem’s first attempt to catapult him down the stairs failed. She attempted to bluff her way out of it, but failed at that as well. He remained distracted enough for her to push him down the stairs on her second attempt though. This set the remaining guards in motion. All of us rushed to engage the rebels and assist Lem and the stairs became a chaotic melee of whirling blades, flashing chains, and magical emanations. We had bested all the guards save one when Sgt. Kroth appeared with a deadly looking composite bow in his hands and an arrow knocked. He bade us surrender. We were having nothing of that and insisted that he surrender instead. It was evident that Kroth had been drinking heavily. Even so he sunk an arrow into Lem to emphasize his point. A standoff ensued for a time until we showed Kroth evidence of his men’s evil deeds. Defeated by the wickedness of his allies and his ultimate responsibility for their misdeeds, he crumpled to the floor. Crispin ensured that none of the fallen Guards would expire and thus cheat the Arbiters their chance to administer justice. We securely bound them all and searched the building for some sign of whatever patron had put Kroth up to this.</p> <p>In Kroth’s chamber we found evidence of correspondence with a noble Lady far beyond his station as well as signs that she had visited him here in this sordid locale. Kroth had been carrying on an affair with a Lady Vimonde. I pay little attention to such things, but both Crispin and Lem had heard that a woman of this name was a member of House Arkona and perhaps cousin to Lord Glorio. We gathered the letters and an expensive-looking and masterfully crafted dagger we found to take to Field Marshal Kroft. While we had searched the top floor – Amber had been engaged in her own investigations of the main floor and animals pens. She had found two vicious boars, which she released into the corral. She had also found a lock box containing the coins the errant Guardsmen had taken from their victims and in exchange for the services they carried out. The boars were exceedingly irate, and rather than tangle with them we bundled our prisoners into the unused wagon and departed the butcher shop. We encountered some Hellknights along the way but Kroth’s sad admission of guilt managed to convince them of the lawfulness of our mission.</p> <p>Field Marshal Kroft was pleased with the success of our mission and rewarded us well. We explained what we had found and showed her the letters and dagger. She told us that the dagger was of Vuduran manufacture and further proof of the involvement of House Arkona – though not conclusive enough to take to the Arbiters. We also told the Field Marshal how well received Kroft’s mission of distributing free meat had been among the poor and desperate of the neighborhood. We told her that if she could provide some assistance we would be more than willing to carry on with that mission, though now distributing the meat in the name of Queen Ileosa. She readily agreed to our plan. Tomorrow we go into the meat business for ourselves and perhaps see if we can discover more information on Kroth’s mysterious benefactor.</p> Oathday, 10 Desnus 4708... Modus Sharn (alias of thelesuit) 2008-10-23T23:52:26Z Re: Campaign Journals: Modus' Journal [Immora's Curse of the Crimson Throne campaign] thelesuit 2008-10-16T22:28:05Z 2008-10-16T22:27:58Z <div class="messageboardAttribution">Aula Wintrex wrote:</div><blockquote>. </blockquote><p><OOC>Wow, I totally did not realize we visited more than one shop in the morning. I must not have been paying much attention. Aula said we were going to her father's shop and we ended up at <i>Hedge Wizardry</i>, I thought they were one and the same. <p>Thanks for setting me straight.</OOC></p> Aula Wintrex wrote... thelesuit 2008-10-16T22:27:58Z Re: Campaign Journals: Modus' Journal [Immora's Curse of the Crimson Throne campaign] Aula Wintrex (alias of Lissa Guillet, Assistant Software Developer) 2008-10-16T21:22:57Z 2008-10-16T21:11:30Z needed to check with... Aula Wintrex (alias of Lissa Guillet, Assistant Software Developer) 2008-10-16T21:11:30Z Re: Campaign Journals: Modus' Journal [Immora's Curse of the Crimson Throne campaign] Modus Sharn (alias of thelesuit) 2008-10-16T20:19:28Z 2008-10-16T20:19:15Z <p><b>Wealday, 9 Desnus 4708</b></p> <p the street nearby. We rushed to assist the fallen Sable Company rider. A quick look showed the rider, a sergeant by her livery, still lived, but the hippogriff was beyond our ability to help. Lem immediately began going through her pockets – had we not just fought our way into and out of Abaddon together I truly would have struck her down. Lem did find her identification papers which named the fallen flyer as Sgt. Miranda Goodwin. Both rider and mount were covered by huge welts and stings. We tried to bring her around to no avail. Our ministrations on the marine were interrupted by her attackers: a covey of imps. They swarmed us and utter thwarted our attempts to fight them off. Nearly all of us were stung by their cruel barbed tails. Amber, the cat lady, was felled as one of the blighters clawed viciously at her face. One stole my battle chain, but their main intent was to land and feast on the fallen marine. One imp turned into a vicious boar and attempted to gore Crispin. Were it not for a fortuitous wing of dragonlings we would have been in a much direr situation. Wheeling, snapping, clawing, and spinning among the imps; the fury of the dragonettes gave us an opportunity to grab up the fallen marine and flee. Lem wanted to stay to fight them, fearing for her safety I hastily snatched her up by the back of her britches and hoist her onto my shoulders at a run. Neither of us was happy with the situation – the fool halfling would have to seek her death some other time.</p> <p>Avoiding the Hellknights and rioters, we made our way quickly to Zellara’s shop, the only refuge that came to mind. We encountered a place entirely different from the one we had entered just yesterday. Zellara’s shop was a wrecked and ruined shambles. Gone were the tapestries, rugs, furniture, and incense. All that was left was garbage and debris. But it was a place to hunker down and attempt to come to terms with all that had befallen us recently.</p> <p>Aula pulled out the box containing Zellara’s rotting head and her Harrow deck. The head was just dead and dying flesh. But using her arcane powers, Aula determined that there was something going on with the Harrow deck. Further investigation caused Zellar’s shade to materialize. She explained that while she was sorry for the ruse, we had accomplished what she had sought and now could go on to her final rest. Her prescience was weak, but she still believed that we would be at the center of momentous events. I buried her head in her herb garden and Crispin said some words to his god over her remains. It seemed like the right thing to do. The other items we had retrieved from Gaedren Lamm’s lair seemed more and less disturbing. For most we would never know their stories, or the pain and misfortune they represented. Certainly Lamm would not have kept anything unless the keeping was beneficial to him and hurtful to someone else. The items varied: a Chelaxian gold ingot, a masterfully crafted shuriken, an adamantine arrowhead, an octopus of whale ivory scrimsaw with gems for eyes, a ring, erotic Chelish statuary, a vial of what turned out to be <i>Keening Oil</i>, an arcane wand of <i>magic missiles</i>, and a fanciful brooch. Aula recognized the brooch as belonging to Queen Ileosa Arabasti; with the death of her husband, the reigning monarch of Korvosa. Lem coveted the brooch, but the rest of us felt it would be best if we returned it to the Queen. Crispin and I retired to the roof of Zellara’s townhouse to watch the riots and consume more of Cayden Cailean’s Best Dark.</p> <p>While watching the Hellknights impose order, fires flare-up throughout the city, and the Marines of the Sable Company wheel overhead on their hippogriffs – Crispin had a slight epiphany. He could use his god’s magic to signal to the flyers and perhaps summon them to their fallen comrade’s aid. This was quickly accomplished and before long two marines and their hippogriffs joined us on the roof. We bundled up Sgt. Goodwin and she was strapped between the two hippogriffs to be airlifted to the Company headquarters. I managed to disentangle Lem from the sling between the two hippogriffs – for some reason she was intent on getting a ride with the marines. I can’t think of why she thought that would be a good idea. Amber let the marines know where the body of Sgt. Goodwin’s hippogriff could be found. We rested the remainder of the night amid the ruins of Zellara’s shop and set off in the morning. One day had seen tremendous changes come into our lives. I didn’t know what to make of most of it.</p> <p>In the morning Aula announced that it was imperative that she visit her father. Master Wintrex, owned Hedge Wizardry, an alchemist shop on Eodred’s Walk. We moved there with all haste. Lem took point, looking for trouble; I brought up the rear to insure that trouble didn’t follow us. We encountered more Hellknights but managed through our orderly conduct not to antagonize them. We noticed that many shops and buildings had suffered damage during the previous night’s violence. Eodred’s Walk was not spared. Many of the affluent shops had had their glass fronts smashed in and been looted. We noticed an odd gathering outside Master Wintrex’s shop: guardsmen in Arkona livery. Through the smashed glass windows we could see Master Wintrex engaging in some sort of transaction with a noble gentleman who could only be Glorio Arkona. We weren’t able to see what Lord Arkona purchased, but it seemed he only paid a few coins for a large number of vials and bottles. We were all transfixed. I could barely breathe.</p> <p>Concluding his business Lord Arkona departed the shop. Encountering us on the way out, he showed only disdain for the lower class. His eyes alighted upon the bedraggled Amber and he exercised his noble prerogative by striking her to the ground with his gloved hand. So overcome with emotion, I don’t even recall if he uttered a syllable. Amber pulled herself to her feet and I watched Lord Arkona’s departing back. The others withdrew into the shop. Aula greeted her father. Crispin used divine magic to repair some of the damage wrought by the riot. Lem had other business to be about and departed. I watched Glorio Arkona depart the square and still after marked the place where he had disappeared from my sight. Even now I am unable to come up with any reasonable or worthwhile plan to reclaim my daughter from him.</p> <p><i> How am I to wrest Iralmi free? I need to find out what Glorio Arkona was purchasing from Master Wintrex. If Lord Arkona holds my daughter I will need a plan to purchase her release. I must know everything I can about the most powerful noble in the city. The Arkona do not willingly part with anything they value.</i></p> <p>After assisting with the clean-up in Master Wintrex’s shop we decided that taking the brooch back to the Queen was the next best course of action. We did not wait for the halfling – but she managed to find us in the street as we made our way toward Castle Korvosa. As usual Lem was in trouble – something to do with promising a teamster a certain sum of coin to carry her about and not fulfilling her promise. It is obvious that the halfling is not familiar with life in Korvosa I often cannot fathom her motives or desires. She is vexing but insuring her welfare is not my job. Fearing how she might be received in Royal company, Amber chose to remain amid the alleys at near to the palace. She maintained she had business with some crows but would find us when our business at the castle was concluded.</p> <p>Castle Korvosa is indeed impressive. I had never had much call to do more than gawk at it in passing. To have business here struck me dumb. The guards were much in evidence and despite their harried expressions were polite. They informed us it would be near to two weeks before we could get an audience with Her Majesty. None of us wanted to be burdened with something belonging to the Queen for that long. Crispin hit upon the idea of making a rubbing of the brooch and sending it along with a note explaining how we had come by it. Verily this seemed to do the trick for in a nonce we were being conducted up the steps of the Grand Mastaba. We passed through a series of increasingly senior flunkies, aides, ministers, and sycophants, were asked to tender our weapons, and given over to the charge of Sabina Merrin, Queen Ileosa’s bodyguard and handmaid.</p> <p>Trained by Vencarlo Orisini himself, Mistress Merrin is indeed an imposing personage. In her quiet efficient manner she bade us follow her to the Crimson Throne. The throne room was impressive. We approached the Queen on her red throne and all except the contrary halfling bowed before her. I shudder to recall the actions of the halfling and can only say that I have no doubt that her actions will continue to endanger the rest of us should we continue to associate with her – I can only hope that her contrary nature soon takes her out of my life. Eventually the guards corralled the halfling and she executed a perfunctory bow to our sovereign. We gave over the brooch to the Queen and she thanked us profusely. I cannot exactly recall the words she spoke to us, but despite all the rumors and stories I had heard about her scheming and venal nature and loathing for our city, she seemed in person to be quite the opposite. The Queen appeared very young, very sad, and very tired. It was obvious that she was greatly troubled by the death of the King and the turmoil that gripped the city. The return of her brooch, a gift from her mother in far Cheliax, filled her with a renewed sense of hope and kindness. I was near brought to tears by her grace and a desire to help this great lady in any way I could. She was heartened by our resolve in such trying times. She hoped that we would continue to serve the city and bade us assist Field Marshal Kroft at Citadel Volshyenek. To reward us for the return of her brooch she had a solid silver chest filled with gold ingots brought forward. All agreed to follow our liege’s wishes and our audience came to an end.</p> <p>We followed Mistress Merrin out the way we had come now laden with truly impressive wealth. Four guards were assigned to accompany us on our way to wherever we wished to go. A messenger was sent ahead to inform Field Marshal Kroft of the Queen’s wishes. We asked Merrin to include details of Amber, our missing cat-lady, in the missive as she was a valuable member of our company – but not one that felt comfortable coming before Her Majesty. We bade Merrin farewell.</p> <p>Our first stop on the way to Citadel Volshyenek was the nearby Temple of Cayden Cailean, where Crispin served. The hall was truly packed. It seemed like the entire city had gathered here to drown their sorrows and anxieties from the vats of the Good Priests. There was much argument, shouting, and threats of fisticuffs. Many here held Queen Ileosa in poor regard and were vociferously arguing with those who favored her. The press was thick and it was difficult to get served – the priests seemed to be handling it well though. Crispin fought his way to the bar and slammed a gold ingot on the wood, “The next round is on Queen Ileosa!” he shouted.</p> <p>There followed absolute silence in the hall as all eyes turned toward the gold and our friend Crispin. This broke in a roar as, “Let’s hear it for Queen Ileosa!!!” erupted from the mouths of all assembled.</p> <p>Amid the tumult I noticed a Guard’s tabard lying beneath a bench. Above it was a man that seemed somewhat familiar to me. He was one of the Korvosan Guard – and by drinking her in the Temple when the city was in such dire need of guards – in serious dereliction of duty. I spoke to him and learned that his name was Grau Soldara. The horrors of the last evening had broken him. He had once trained with the famed Vencarlo Orisini – but had been discharged from service and now served the Guard as a private. I convinced him that he could still make a difference and that Korvosa truly needed all able men who still held some love for the city in their hearts. This cheered him somewhat. Crispin and I carried him to one of the duty priests who was able to somewhat diminish Grau’s drunken state with the Cayden benediction against drunkenness, “In the name of Cayden Cailean – HOLD YOUR LIQUOR!” Bound for Citadel Volshyenek we departed the temple.</p> <p>At the Citadel we found another scene of absolute chaos. In the eye of the storm stood the resilient form for Field Marshal Kroft issuing orders, delegating duties, and receiving reports. She had been told of our coming and was pleased to see us. This was not my first meeting with the Field Marshal, I had faced her before when Iralmi went missing to beg her assistance. I was heartened somewhat that she remembered me – but in truth there are few Garundi in the city and black fellows of my size wrapped in emerald-dyed headscarves are rare. She welcomed us into “informal” service within the Guard and allowed that our aide was sorely needed. She indicated that she had worked with “adventurers” before and that we would be fairly compensated for our service and further that accommodations within the Citadel would be made available to us. Two other guards then came forward to relieve us of Private Grau.</p> <p>Field Marshal Kroft pulled us aside and spoke of the current matter that truly vexed her. A disgruntled member of the Guard had gathered about him several of his fellows and taken up residence in an abandoned butcher’s shop in Northgate. This guard sergeant, Dieland Kroth, was calling for the removal of Queen Ileosa and inciting other guards to desert and join his cause. Sergeant Kroth was another guard known to me – as a patrolman he had been in charge of the investigation into my daughter’s disappearance. While never truly sympathetic to my plight he had been dutiful in carrying out his duties. He had risen to sergeant now but had been hardened by his service to the Guard – now he had turned his back on his duty. Kroft wished us to bring Dieland Kroth in, alive if possible along with those that currently followed his cause. She dared not expose more guards to his destabilizing presence – but as irregulars we should be immune. We felt that this was a good employment of our talents. Kroft also indicated that Sgt. Kroth was acting out of character and that there might be other forces as work. We agreed to pursue this quest in the morning.</p> <p>It had been a busy day and we had had little rest the night before. We accepted the accommodations offered at Citadel Volshyenek and stowed our newly gained wealth in a lock-box there. Tomorrow would bring new challenges and we would need to gather our resources to face them.</p> Wealday, 9 Desnus 4708... Modus Sharn (alias of thelesuit) 2008-10-16T20:19:15Z Re: Campaign Journals: Modus' Journal [Immora's Curse of the Crimson Throne campaign] Aula Wintrex (alias of Lissa Guillet, Assistant Software Developer) 2008-10-14T15:13:27Z 2008-10-14T15:13:22Z <p>Can't wait to see our further adventures. ^_^</p> Can't wait to see our further adventures. ^_^ Aula Wintrex (alias of Lissa Guillet, Assistant Software Developer) 2008-10-14T15:13:22Z Re: Campaign Journals: Modus' Journal [Immora's Curse of the Crimson Throne campaign] tbug 2008-10-10T16:29:17Z 2008-10-10T16:29:17Z <p>That was truly an exhaustive recounting. Thanks for posting it! I shall be watching this campaign. :)</p> That was truly an exhaustive recounting. Thanks for posting it! I shall be watching this campaign. :) tbug 2008-10-10T16:29:17Z Campaign Journals: Modus' Journal [Immora's Curse of the Crimson Throne campaign] Modus Sharn (alias of thelesuit) 2008-10-09T20:44:46Z 2008-10-09T20:42:57Z <p><b>Toilday, 8 Desnus 4708</b> <br /> his last, but promising to some hope and perhaps redemption.</p> <p>It began with a single card. I was ferrying a turnip farmer across the Jeggare from the Dock Street No. 5 to Vesporlon’s New Dock on the Midland side. This is what I’m good at: a mean sprint across the Flow dodging cattle and ore barges and the Free Privateers bonded by the finest of Korvosa. <i>The Lark</i> is always ready. <i>The Lark</i> is what I call my shell, is lean and shallow, and at 4 ell is longer than somes that run the Flow, but agile. She fairly dances on the foam and swirl. I think Iralmi would have liked her. And it is a rare delight to race the luggers bound Up Flow with their massive banked oars or drawn by divers sea beasts – a chary bet with the later. I shuffed the foam abaft of the <i>Honour of Endrin</i> and the old plodder turned green. Bet he thought his turnips were bound for Azlantia. It was a tidy run Mr. Turnip paid his pinches. He is a regular so I knew he wouldn’t be a cheap Ermer. I didn’t check my catch until after we had loaded the cart at Vesporlon’s, so I was keen surprised to find a Harrow card in the gullet. It wasn’t from a gambler’s or sailor’s deck that was certain. This was a real Harrow card like the kind my Nana used. Old and worn by many spreads, but the colors still vivid. The face showed a roiling, thunderous sky, slaves and bound folk raising up their arms, their bonds shattering as lighting danced across their features. On the cardback was scrawled:</p> <p><i>I know what Gaedren has done to you. He has wronged me as well. I know where he dwells, yet cannot strike at him. Come to my home at 3 Lancet Street at sunset. Gaedren must face his fate, and justice must be done.</i></p> <p>I reeled and nearly fainted at this. Iralmi! When my daughter disappeared three years ago shattering my world – the only evidence I could find were veiled hints about the shadowy Gaedren Lamm. The authorities had not been able to assist us, and Erisana blamed me. To be truthful Erisana blamed everyone. But if I could wrap my hands around Gaedren Lamm’s neck I might be able to wring some truth from him. I had been trained for caution, so before I could take the words on the back of the Harrow card at face value I needed to learn more.</p> <p>Number 3 Lancet was easy enough to find. It was in Midlands, just up from Pinter’s Dock toward Warehouse Way: a small shop for a Varisian fortuneteller named Zellara. I checked with Nana’s apprentice, Anozsha, on the mean of the card: the Big Sky, escape from bondage. I watched the shop till around sunset and saw some interesting characters enter: a young drunken priest of Cayden Cailean (is there any other kind) and a sad, but pretty little mageling of some sort. Someone else seemed to be watching the shop as well – but I couldn’t quite tell who or from where. Adjusting my battlechain under my robes I entered the shop. It was a cluttered sort of shop, a lot more prosperous than Nana’s: tapestries, lots of incense, rugs, and some nice chairs around a table. The priest and mage girl had already settled in. There was a note on the table indicating that Zellara would return soon and to help ourselves to the bread and wine in the basket. The priest had no problems complying with that. He introduced himself as Crispin, and seemed like a bluff fellow. The sad little girl called herself Aula. Two more individuals joined us shortly: a shabbily dressed young halfling woman and a reeking empty (a woman, I think) that stank of cat urine and garbage. The halfling introduced herself as Lem – I’m not sure why a tiny dancer would use that for a street name (she didn’t seem either bean-y or goat milk-y). I don’t know much about halflings though. The empty mumbled that her name was Amber. She’s probably a woman then – I did my best to breath through my mouth. We all sat rather pensive, but not for long when with a poof of sparkling dust and a cloud of smoke, our hostess, Zellara appeared. She fixed us with a practiced stare and bade us listen to her tale.</p> <p>Apparently she had been wronged by Gaedren Lamm as well; her prized Harrow deck stolen. She had discovered his location, but was not sufficiently strong to approach him in his lair, an old fishery. Perhaps as all of us had been wronged by him we could find cause to work together to bring him to justice. The others admitted that they all had reason to see Lamm brought to justice. I explained I wasn’t terribly interested in justice. I wanted my daughter back and that I had every indication that Lamm had stolen her three years ago. I was quick to act on the fortuneteller’s information. She advised that such ventures are best started with a Harrow reading. I recall that Nana had done such for my father before he went wandering.</p> <p>I drew the Rabbit Prince, capriciousness in combat. I’m not sure I needed that; though if our foes be mighty such might come in handy. The others drew equally portentous cards. The full spread was filled with storms and portents. Lots of destruction and impending chaos. The cards fell too fast for me to fully comprehend. I noticed that Aula and Lem both seemed mesmerized by the movement of Zellar’s hands at the deck. Thoughts of catching up to Lamm pulled me back out into the streets. I knew the area of the docks Zellara had indicated; I could find the fishery.</p> <p>We arrived without much delay. Already dark the fishery looked empty and abandoned. Some light leaked from under the front door and through some boarded up windows though. Lem took a peek. She noticed a very ugly spiked-backed dog under a desk in the front office. She padded to the next window while the rest of us arrayed ourselves along the front. “There are kids in here!” she whispered. I had to see for myself.</p> <p>Behind the boarded window was a chamber where children were working at some trough with paddles and pushers. Even through the crack the place was thick with the stench of dead fish. They seemed to be pounding garbage fish (skates, rays, net hangers, and sunbakers) into some sort of slurry. I popped the door and Lem rolled in. She pulled her hat low, scrunched her face and fed the kid at the door a line about looking for work – pretending to be an urchin herself. Unfortunately, he wasn’t an urchin either – but a gnome. He grabbed her, slammed the door and whirled with a knife at her throat. That was enough for us. Crispin shattered the door and clouted the gnome. I came in behind him and gave the bugger a belt as well. Aula and Amber followed behind us. We shook the gnome a bit, and I asked him if he had seen my daughter and he croaked out some nonsense about “Giggles”. Lem ushered the kids out the door and I eyed each in turn – no little Garundi girls among them. We coshed the gnome – I gave him a good rap with the battlechain and he dropped like a stone. Amber went to an interior door where she heard something scratching: the spike dog. She reported that it sounded like no dog she had ever heard. About that time a huge one-eyed half-orc with a cat’o’nine burst in through one of the other doors and a full imbroglio commenced. The spiky dog turned out to be two monstrous rats followed by some beaky acid flinging fellow in fancy clothes. The acid flinger, Yargin, and half-orc, Giggles, turned out to be old friends of Amber and Crispin. Giggles gave Crispin a horrific lashing and nearly dropped him to the ground. I shoved Crispin behind me and went toe-to-toe with the Giggles. Crispin called for a blessing from Cayden Cailean which greatly improved his health. Unfortunately this also roused the troublesome gnome. Crispin dealt with him. Aula and Amber had their hands full with Yargin and the rats. Lem darted behind the half-orc into the other room leaving me to face the brute. Amber’s cat arrived and lent a paw. Crispin roused himself to action and our opponents went down in short order.</p> <p>Beyond the fish trough room was a chamber hold a huge vat of bubbling roiling fish filth. During her explorations Lem managed to find out just how disgusting it was. She also had promised the children found there succor at the Temple of Cayden Cailean. The kids fled, but not before she found out that Iralmi wasn’t among them and had been sold. Sadly I didn’t get a chance to ask the children further questions. We had finished off Lamm’s henchmen, but there was no trace of him. Either he was hidden somewhere or Zellara had been wrong. We searched the remainder of the Old Fishery and found little of interest. A hole in the vat room seemed promising – the children had indicated that this is where Lamm took some of the children. We also discovered that behind the fishery was moored an old dilapidated scow. We moved to examine the scow further.</p> <p>The old boat proved to be little more than a nesting place for some truly vicious spiders. I’m used to handling such vermin and we managed to overcome them without too much problem. Lem’s keen eyes spotted a secret door in the hold of the vessel. Beyond it we found an Underdock area that led to the bottom floor of the fishery. A jigsaw shark swam lazily beneath the opening that led up into the vat room – fat from the fishery’s leavings. We avoided him. The underside of the fishery proved to be Gaedren’s lair. A fat alligator wallowed on the muddy bank beneath small sets of manacles. Gaedren himself sat before a table piled with loot on the far side of the chamber. We rushed to engage him.</p> <p>Lem, ever the first into trouble stepped onto the planking that edged the room and was snagged up by a choker that had been hiding in the shadows of the ceiling. Crispin moved to assist her. Amber spied the alligator and sought to calm it with her soothing nature – she appeared to have a way with animals. Aula began waving her arms, presumably to cast a spell of some sort. I moved to tangle with the old man himself. Things moved rather quickly from there. Aula targeted the gator with a spell and blew Amber’s chances of calming it – in return the gator gave Amber a mighty chomp and pulled her into the mud. Lem escaped the choker and moved out amid the nets and lines hanging from the ceiling. Crispin tangled with the choker. I gave Gaedren a clout with my battlechain and he tried to plink me with his hand crossbow. Lem managed to get an astounding shot off that dropped Gaedren. Aula jumped into the mud to pull Amber from the gator. With Gaedren down the choker fled and I dove into the mud to attack the irate alligator. Crispin jumped to assist and between us we managed to finish off the beast. We pulled ourselves from the mud and brought Amber around. Lem worked on Gaedren, as I needed him alive to find out what he had done with Iralmi. Crispin called upon Cayden Cailean to prevent him from dying.</p> <p>I’m not sure why, but for all the misery and evil he had caused, I expected Gaedren Lamm to be more physically menacing. He wasn’t. He was a pitiful, wretched old man. A scrapper and a scoundrel it is true and more than deserving of death a thousand thousand times over. He stank. He lived in squalor and foul conditions that most Shinglers would disdain. Using all the tricks to keep a body moving we roused him to consciousness. His talk was as foul and disgusting as his person. Despite the pain he had caused her, Aula could not watch us question him. Crispin had some qualms as well. I had none. We shook him. We threatened him. We were unkind. I asked him pointedly what he had done to my daughter – the pretty Garundi he kidnapped three years ago. Iralmi. My only daughter. The spark that had lit my life and for whom my spirit had cried every day since.</p> <p>Gaedren leered, “That is a tiger whose tail you don’t want to twitch boy. He likes young Garundi.”</p> <p>I contained my rage and the despair that threatened to overtake me. “Give me a name old man!”</p> <p>With the light dying in his eyes, he gasped and shuddered in my grasp, “Glorio.” With that he rattled, coughed and died.</p> <p>I wiped my hands and arose. I knew some men of that name in the city – but only one with a reputation for dealings with the undercrust. Only one tiger few men would tangle with – Glorio Arkona – the most popular nobleman among the poor of Korvosa. I swallowed and hoped that there was some other Glorio that would fit the description, but feared the worst. My grandfather had ever counseled optimism.</p> <p>The others had broken into Gaedren’s lock box and appropriated anything of value. There was a lot that was useless trash. Some things that might be of interest to someone though: a gold ingot, a teak cigar case, a tiny gold crown, an ivory carving of succubi, an obsidian wand, a jeweled broach, a shuriken. Aula was of the opinion we should return belongings to their owners if we were able to determine them – I’m not sure if she was applying the same measure to the obviously magical wand. We also found a large hat box that contained the head of Zellara the fortuneteller and our patron along with her Harrow deck. This was more than a little surprising. It was evident that she had been dead a week or more. None of us was sure how such a thing was possible. More than a little stunned and exhausted we hauled ourselves out of the dim recesses of Gaedren’s lair to find a night sky lit by fires.</p> Toilday, 8 Desnus 4708... Modus Sharn (alias of thelesuit) 2008-10-09T20:42:57Z

Pharisee - Creedopedia An encyclopedic search engine on religion About us | Why use us? | Press | Contact us Topic: Pharisee Ads by Google Pharisees - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia In general, the Pharisees emphasized a commitment to social justice, belief in the brotherhood of mankind, and a faith in the redemption of the Jewish nation and, ultimately, humanity.. According to Josephus, Pharisees were further distinguished from the Sadducees in that Pharisees believed in the resurrection of the dead. (7405 words) Robert Farrar Capon - The Pharisee and the Tax Collector He has sent in the Pharisee who was one of the most respectable people in Judaism of his time and He has sent into the temple with him this tax collector who is a mafia-style enforcer, who is a bad apple.. (2567 words) SUNDAY OF THE PUBLICAN AND THE PHARISEE The fault of the Pharisee is that he has no desire to change his outlook; he is complacent, self-satisfied, and so he allows no place for God to act within him. The Sunday of the Publican and the Pharisee is celebrated with the Divine Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom, which is preceded by the Matins service. The Pharisee goes to a very prominent place in the temple where other will see him and speaks of his accomplishments to God. (1408 words) CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Pharisees They were called Pharisees, meaning those who separated themselves from the heathen, and from the heathenizing forces and tendencies which constantly invaded the precincts of Judaism (1 Maccabees 1:11; 2 Maccabees 4:14 sq. It was only through the revelation received on the road to Damascus, that Saul the Pharisee was enabled to comprehend a church where all are equally the "seed of Abraham", all "one in Christ Jesus" (Galatians 3:28-9). It was the Pharisees who made idealized nationalism, based upon the monothism of the prophets, the very essence of Judaism. (1291 words) Judea and Civil War They rejected the new doctrines and saw the Pharisees as contributing to the vulgarization of their religion. Common Jews tended to see the Pharisees as "expounders of scripture," as scholars of Judaic law and as defenders of religious tradition against Hellenistic influences. The Sadducees were aristocrats and hereditary priests, and among them were the priests who managed Jerusalem's temple. (2503 words) Redeeming the Time Vol. 01.16 Sun of the Publican and Pharisee Jan 25 / Feb 8 1998 After all, he was a representative of the intellectual stratum of society, he was in his own way religious, educated and wellread; to all appearance, he firmly preserved the religious beliefs and traditions, fulfilled the religious prescriptions, gave a tenth part of his possessions for the needs of his religion. The Pharisee the fulfiller of the law, who observes all the religious rules comes and prays in thanksgiving: God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. But the selfsatisfaction of the Pharisee was, as it were, the dominate feature of his spiritual state; it was so dominant that it completely obscured from him the genuine picture of what was taking place in his soul. (5279 words) The Pharisee and the Tax Collector The term Pharisee is presumed to have come from parû, which in Hebrew means Separated One. The Pharisees were a movement (not a denomination in the modern sense) within Judaism devoted to observing the Torah, including ritual purity, and piety toward God (Hultgren 120-1). The prayer of the Pharisee seems to imply that to feel right before God, the Pharisee had to know that there were others "beneath" him. In other words, the Pharisee was praying as he was expected to pray, and communicating to God in the way that he had been taught. (1233 words) Pharisee - Hutchinson encyclopedia article about Pharisee He was, and is yet most likely, the wearisomest self-righteous Pharisee that ever ransacked a Bible to rake the promises to himself and fling the curses to his neighbours. After the fall of Jerusalem, Pharisee ideas became the basis of orthodox Judaism as the people were dispersed throughout the Western Roman Empire. The Pharisees rejected political action, and in the 1st century (256 words) The Pharisee and the Tax Collector The term Pharisee is most likely derived from the Hebrew word meaning separated one. The Pharisees were a movement (not a denomination in the modern sense) within Judaism devoted to observing Torah, including ritual purity, and to piety toward God. At the end of the day, the tax collector was judged righteous by God, while the Pharisee was not; thus Jesus was telling the people that justification comes when one both needs and recognizes his need for it (Johnson 274). The tax collector left the temple justified, which meant in contemporary Judaism that he had obtained justice; been acquitted; or found justice, favor, grace from God; whereas the Pharisees prayer was not accepted by God (Jeremias 141). (1831 words) What is a Pharisee? The doctrine of the Pharisees was not "as straight as an arrow" (orthodox); it was heterodox. The Pharisees were zealous to proselytize, but by converting to the self-righteous religion of the Pharisees, the proselytes were worse off than even the proselytizers. The Pharisees self-righteously brought this woman to be stoned as a wicked law-breaker, yet they were wicked law-breakers themselves. (3630 words) Sunday of the Publican and the Pharisee. And from the very outset, the Pharisee's prayer has set him apart from his brethren. (1136 words) The Pharisees Observe Every Letter of the Law The Pharisees' spiritual descendants today are those people who make a public show of their holiness, but who don't hold God and all his people in their hearts. The Pharisees were neither priests nor teachers - many of them were probably small businessmen or craftspeople. Jesus told them repeatedly that they kept the letter of the law, but lost the spirit; they made a show of loving God with their public prayers, but they didn't have compassion for people. (242 words) George Whitefield - 34 - The Pharisee and Publican The Pharisee is not here condemned for his fasting, for fasting is a Christian duty; "when you fast," says our Lord, thereby taking it for granted that his disciples would fast. Either they trust wholly in themselves, or in part, that they are righteous, and then they are Pharisees; or they have no confidence in the flesh, are self-condemned sinners, and then they come under the character of the Publican just now described. Our Lord first takes notice of his posture; "the Pharisee STOOD," he is not to be condemned for that; for standing, as well as kneeling, is a proper posture for prayer. (3058 words) The Pharisee & the Windsor Report by Katie Sherrod He is apparently the ideal they want to hold up to us all – the person who follows all the rules and who has no flexibility in his or her approach to life or to the lives of others. The Windsor Report purports to be an honest appraisal of the state of the church, but it, like the prayers of the Pharisee, is so steeped in institutional self-righteousness that there's no room left for God. But we cannot abdicate our responsibility to preach Christ's gospel of inclusive love and prophetic justice, simply for the sake of unity and ecclesiology. (743 words) Fischtank - Book - 12 Steps for the Recovering Pharisee It is a problem that the Pharisees of Jesus' day sought to overcome by concealing themselves behind a whitewashed religious veneer. This is the gospel for those courageous enough to tear off of their masks of adequacy and self-righteousness and get on with a life of gratitude and love for others. This is God's grace as given to us in the New Covenant through the death and resurrection of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. (1261 words) CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Chronology of the Life of Jesus Christ. To these are added a number of the servants and dependents of the high-priest, and a miscellaneous multitude of fanatics with lanterns and torches, with swords and clubs, who were to follow the leadership of Judas. (6116 words) New Booklet: Will the Real Pharisee Please Stand Up A pharisee is anyone who has the gall to look to the Bible and only accept what is contained contextually within its pages. The Lord wanted to send revival, but the ole mean pharisees stopped Him and His Spirit by refusing to budge from the Word of God (forgive the sarcasm). Now those of us who hold to these hard won truths are considered Pharisees by those who have added to the Scriptures their own traditions of men, and in some cases demons. (5156 words) What to Do, When the Pharisee Is You The Pharisee’s prayer was a prayer of self-congratulation. In Jesus’ day, Pharisees were highly regarded by the general public as holy and righteous people. So anyone who heard this parable when Jesus originally told it would assume, as soon as Jesus named the two main characters, that the Pharisee would be the good guy and the tax collector would be the bad guy. (1131 words) GodRules.NET Topic Page: PHARISEE Christ MT 12:38,39; 15:12; JOH 7:48 -Come to Jesus with questions MT 19:3; 22:15-22 -They minister to Jesus LU 7:36; 11:37; 14:1 -Become disciples of Jesus JOH 3:1; AC 15:5; 22:3 -Paul, a Pharisee AC 23:6; 26:5 -See HERODIANS ¯ 2311 -See SADDUCEES ¯ 4214 (116 words) Pharisee Christians As the inceptive tribe of Pharisees brings another ACLU suit to slay any remnants of the covenant between God and man. They refuse to defend their own heritage and fundamental beliefs, while they rush to aid a clan of cultural secularists who claim special status and preferred destiny. Only the deceiver would contend that America was not founded upon a solemn belief in God. (1170 words) USCCB - NAB - Luke 18 The second (Luke 18:9-14) condemns the self-righteous, critical attitude of the Pharisee and teaches that the fundamental attitude of the Christian disciple must be the recognition of sinfulness and complete dependence on God's graciousness. The Pharisee took up his position and spoke this prayer to himself, 'O God, I thank you that I am not like the rest of humanity--greedy, dishonest, adulterous--or even like this tax collector. . (1378 words) There Must be Fifty Ways to be a Pharisee As a budding Bible student, I thought the New Testament objected to Phariseeism because of the Pharisees' legalismthat is, their preoccupation with laws, rules, principles, and the minute, trivial details of religious observance. The Pharisee of the New Testament may have been a distant and unfamiliar manifestation of universal Phariseeism, but universal Phariseeism has always been with us and always will be. Through my years of Bible study, however, I have gradually come to understand the essential problem with Phariseeism: It was not the Pharisees' attention to the Law and Law-keeping. (1815 words) bible.org: The Pharisee and the Publican The Pharisee, who was socially acceptable, was not acceptable to God. We forget that because all we hear about the Pharisees is what the NT says and it’s not very kind to them. Jesus had just told a parable about prayer. (1391 words) Pharisee Nation, John Dear, ThinkingPeace Our Pharisee rulers would have us believe that our wars and our weapons are holy and blessed by God. Instead, through their actions, they have become disciples of the devout, religious, all-powerful, murderous Pharisees who killed him. Instead of practicing an authentic spirituality of compassion, nonviolence, love and peace, we as a collective people have become self-righteous, arrogant, powerful, murderous hypocrites who dominate and kill others in the name of God. (1392 words) Jesus and the Pharisees Doubtless, there were godly Pharisees who lived up to their ideals. They have charged that Jesus and the early church writers presented a false caricature of the Pharisees that is not consistent with what the Jewish sources say about them. But when Jesus refers to Pharisees as hypocrites (Matthew 23:13) and a brood of vipers (Matthew 23:33), he is berating fellow Jews. (2644 words) Gamaliel's Desk Since Texas is populated with one of the highest concentrations of Pharisee churches in the country, this seems to indicate that God isn’t punishing people through the hurricanes after all. This is why good Pharisee churches remain small – we appeal only to the elect, the sacred remnant, the few who have made their way through the narrow gate. Possibly, it may be the chastening hand of God on some churches for their flirtations with the New Evangelicalism and the Church Growth Movement but most sound Pharisee churches know better than to mess with these liberalizing influences. (5778 words) Paul as apostate (was:Paul Not a Pharisee?) As you yourself seem to acknowledge the verse about Paul's past as a Pharisee is about just that - his past. I thought our discussion was about what Paul had become and believed when he switched sect an became a follower of Jesus Christ. >=20 > Now first of all I do not see that you have made any argument about=20 > what these passages say or about what other Jewish groups besides the=20 > so far unaccounted for Pharisees say, vis-a-vis what you interpret=20 > them to say for Paul. (2820 words) Dietrich Bonhoeffer [Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy] The responsible person is, thus, a selfless person, who does God's will by serving the spiritual and material needs of another, since "...what is nearest to God is precisely the need of one's neighbor" (Ethics, p.136). He lightly, almost cavalierly, casts aside many of the legal distinctions the Pharisee labors to maintain. He bids his disciples to eat on the Sabbath, even though starvation is hardly in question. (3147 words) Operation American Pharisee: Bush's War on Jesus Christ, John Stanton Viewed from the enlightened teachings of Christ and his many sacrifices, Bush II is a pitiful human being, a paper tiger leader, a sad figure, one that has sold his soul to devilish handlers for earthly gain. These American Pharisees cite Christ's teachings and actions to perform insufferable acts, but millions the world over see right through them. "Every plant which my Father in heaven did not plant will be pulled up," according to Christ, via Saint Matthew, commenting on the Pharisees and their progeny, that being Bush and the NeoCons who lay claim to world leadership and the heavenly divine. (1732 words) USCCB - NAB - Philippians 3 of the race of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrew parentage, in observance of the law a Pharisee, (1075 words) Pharisee It seems the only real argument that charismatic extremists have is to call those who question their beliefs and practices various names, "Pharisee" being one of the favorite epithets they use. This book is a great boon to anyone who is dialoging with anyone who is being swept downstream in the river. In this book Rev. Liichow proves biblically who the real "Pharisee" is --- (and it is not those of us who seek contextual biblical proof). (77 words) Pharisee -- Encyclopædia Britannica The Pharisees (possibly spiritual descendants of the Hasidim [Pious Ones], who were the exponents of Maccabean revolt) were strict adherents to the Law. They did not believe in resurrection because they found no Old Testament enunciation of such a doctrine.. (646 words) Crosswalk.com There was much that was sound in their creed, yet their system of religion was a form and nothing more. They could not bear his doctrines, and they sought by every means to destroy his influence among the people. Home > Dictionaries > Easton's Bible Dictionary > Pharisees (332 words) parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector I do not sit with deceitful men, nor do I consort with hypocrites; I abhor the assembly of evildoers and refuse to sit with the wicked." (In fact the difference between Ps 26 and the Pharisee's prayer is rather subtle) As he stood proudly in the temple that day (1738 words) Ecclesiastical Calendar: Enter a Year... Matt. (2614 words) Pharisaios - Greek Lexicon were bitter enemies of Jesus and his cause; and were in turn severely rebuked by him for their avarice, ambition, hollow reliance on outward works, and affection of piety in order to gain popularity. (292 words) Recovering Pharisee By a Pharisee I mean the kind of person who tries hard to be religious by self-effort and imposes his or her own spiritual expectations stridently on others. By Pharisee I mean very much the religious, disciplined, diligent, self-righteous, and well intentioned people whom Jesus spent time challenging. The Pharisee tends to condemn first and ask questions later. (1503 words) Profile of a Pharisee You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean. 5 So the Pharisees and teachers of the law asked Jesus, "Why don't your disciples live according to the tradition of the elders instead of eating their food with 'unclean' hands?" You give a tenth of your spices--mint, dill and cummin. (1404 words) Luke's Biography of Jesus - Jesus at a Pharisee's House Luke's Biography of Jesus - Jesus at a Pharisee's House Home > Historical Sources Describe Jesus > Early Biographers Depict Jesus > Luke's Biography of Jesus > Jesus at a Pharisee's House Behold, a certain man who had dropsy was in front of him. (267 words) The Pharisee The Pharisee prayed, "God, I thank you that I am not like the other men. Two men went to the temple to pray. The Pharisee was a good man and people liked him. (161 words) Take the leap When the Pharisee in the story prayed, “God, I thank you that I am not like other people,” he was not just whistling Dixie.). (2594 words) Kyrie Eleison, Lord Have Mercy This is brought out in the Gospel reading of the Pharisee and the Publican. The One who has the right to give mercy is God. (1980 words) (DV) Rajiva: The Pharisee's Fire Sermon Zoroastrian beliefs influenced the Old Testament and Talmud (22) when the exiled Israelites came under the rule of the Babylonians and the Persians, and many think that the name of the Jewish sect that professed the new beliefs, Pharisee, is a transcription of Pharsi or Persian. In this pre-Christian monotheism, the world is torn by perpetual war, evil is embodied in a devil, man has free will, and there is a physical resurrection, a day of judgment, and a fiery hell. The Pharisees of the new American corporate-state like to preach the law when it’s on their side but the truth is they rip it to shreds whenever it opposes them. (3085 words) Search Results for "Pharisee" ...A person who practices hypocrisy: pharisee, phony, tartuffe. ...A person who practices hypocrisy: hypocrite, pharisee, phony. Pharisee A member of an ancient Jewish sect that emphasized strict interpretation and observance of the Mosaic law in both its oral and written form. (231 words) pharisee - definition by dict.die.net pharisee n 1: a self-righteous or sanctimonious person 2: a member of an ancient Jewish sect noted for strict obedience to Jewish traditions [syn: Pharisee] (70 words) Paul (WebBible Encyclopedia) - ChristianAnswers.Net We read of his sister and his sister's son (Acts 23:16), and of other relatives (Rom. HIS RELATIVES - His father was of the straitest sect of the Jews, a Pharisee, of the tribe of Benjamin, of pure and unmixed Jewish blood (Acts 23:6; Phil. Here Saul was born, and here he spent his youth, doubtless enjoying the best education his native city could afford. (2849 words) Focus On The Pharisee So, the first 'focus on the pharisee' rant is against me. (1010 words) Book Abbreviations [NT:PJT] Paul the Jewish Theologian: A Pharisee among Christians, Jews, and Gentiles, Brad H. Young, Hendrickson:1997. (10891 words) TallSkinnyKiwi: Pharisee and Republican Retold I look, speak, act and think like the rest of society so that I can show them how relevant Christianity is. I’m not so sure it’s working. This is too funny not pass on: Emergent Hipster – I thank you. Listed below are links to weblogs that reference Pharisee and Republican Retold: (257 words) See That Pharisee, a poem by J.M. Cavaness See That Pharisee, a poem by J.M. Cavaness (45 words) About us | Why use us? | Press | Contact us Copyright © 2006 Creedopedia.com Usage implies agreement with terms.

Due South and all of its characters belong to Alliance Communications. Views to: [email protected] A sequel to Light and Darkness. This could turn into another series! Sorry! So I have decided to call the series "Love in the Light". Dedicated to my friend Ruthie who likes to see Ray and Fraser in love with each other! SHADES OF GREY by Callie "We find rest in those we love and we provide a resting place in ourselves for those who love us" (Saint Bernard of Clairvaux 1090 -1153) It was late evening, and Sergeant Benton Fraser trudged home through the thick snow. He couldn't help smiling to himself as he made his way towards his house. A glow of happiness warmed him; he was home in Canada. Newly promoted, he had accepted a posting in a small township responsible for an area of a thousand kilometres. His men respected him for his fairness and dedication to his duty, and Fraser loved the vastness and beauty of the territory. But best of all, he was living with a man he loved desperately and wholeheartedly, and who returned his love generously and freely. Six months had passed since Lieutenant Harding Welsh had asked him to return to Chicago to visit his partner. Ray had been viciously beaten and permanently blinded in a seemingly senseless attack. Fraser had been shocked to find a pale shadow of the man he had known struggling to come to terms with his disability. Ray had been frightened and frustrated by his blindness, and had been slowly sinking into a black pit of depression isolating himself from a world he couldn't see and the people that loved and cared for him. Fraser had managed to persuade his partner to come back to Canada with him, and slowly the flame that had been Ray Kowalski ignited lighting up all around him. Thrown together by the tragedy of the attack, they had finally declared their love for each other, and had been living happily together in Fraser's small one storey house ever since. Initially Ray had been surprised when the people of the small township involved him in their daily activities. Their simple acceptance encouraged him, and gradually the slender blonde had become more confident in his abilities. The children in the small school adored him, as evidenced by their small kitchen; the cupboard doors and walls were adorned with pictures the children had made for him. Each one different with a various textures so Ray could feel the pictures with his slender fingers. The light from the small living room shone out across the white snow like a beacon. Fraser smiled to himself; Ray always put the light on for him as though he was guiding him home, back to his arms. The warm feeling bubbled up inside him again, and he grinned foolishly as he stamped his boots to remove the snow at the bottom of the steps. Opening the door he quietly stepped inside; he didn't want to disturb Ray as he imagined that he would be in bed by now. Taking off his heavy coat, he hung it neatly on the coat hook placing his stetson on the small table. He peeled off his tunic dimming the lights as he started towards the small kitchen. Glancing across the room, he saw his partner and his heart lurched with love for the blonde haired man. Cushions were scattered on the floor, and Ray was fast asleep lying in front of the open fire, his head resting on his outstretched arm. The glow of the fire reflected off his thin face giving his usually pale skin a golden hue. Fraser thought he looked both vulnerable and beautiful at the same time. Kneeling down, he softly kissed his partner's cheek. Ray stirred. "Ben?" he mumbled opening his pale sightless eyes staring upwards. "So who else do you know that kisses you?" Fraser teased kissing Ray again and nibbling at his neck. "Knew it was ya," Ray turned on his back pulling Fraser towards him. "Could smell yer leather," he muttered returning the tender kisses. "And no one kisses like ya do." "Mmmm," Fraser murmured as he lay down beside his partner drawing the smaller man towards him. Locked in his dark world, touch was important to his partner so Fraser tenderly stroked his fingers through the blonde hair. "Missed ya," Ray said kissing Fraser's nose. "Missed you also," Fraser replied. "I did, however, think you would be in bed. It is rather late." "Nah. Bed's cold without ya so I thought I'd wait up. Sorta fell asleep," Ray admitted sheepishly. "I'm sorry I'm late Ray," Fraser apologised. "I had a lot of paperwork to catch up on." "It's OK. Yer here now," Ray snuggled closer to the Mountie. Do ya want me to get yer something to eat?" he asked. Fraser smiled. Not wanting to be a burden, Ray had insisted on cooking meals for them both. Fraser had helped him organise the cupboards but Ray, in his usual disorganised chaos, still mixed up the spices and they had eaten many a strange concoction. "Cinnamon casserole?" Fraser couldn't help teasing. "Oh hardy ha ha," Ray shot him a dirty look. "So I get kinda mixed up sometimes. Can I help it if the pots keep disorganising themselves?" he said defensively. "Oh Ray," Fraser hugged the small man closer to him. "I love you so much. Never ever change." "I love you too Ben," Ray murmured against his skin. He ran his slender fingers down the Mountie's body drawing a pleased moan from his partner. "Gonna show ya how much," he breathed as he rubbed his growing arousal against Fraser's thigh. "Oh God," Fraser moaned as he thrust his hardening erection against Ray's groin. With practised hands, the partners removed each other's clothing discarding them to one side. Fraser straddled the smaller man, licking and sucking at his neck. Ray moaned under the onslaught, running his hands up and down the Mountie's back. Knowing that Ray couldn't see his movements, Fraser was always careful to gently caress the slender body so as not to startle his partner. Ray captured his partner's lips running his tongue along the bottom lip requesting entry. Fraser opened his mouth, and Ray plunged into the warmness exploring with his tongue. Fraser carefully moved his hands up and down the slim body in time with Ray thrusting his tongue in and out of his mouth. They rotated their hips in tandem, grinding their erections together which caused both men to moan at the delicious friction. Ray brought his hands up to Fraser's face, and gently traced a path across the features with his slender fingers. Fraser smiled to himself; he knew that this was Ray's way of seeing him. "Love ya Ben," Ray sighed as he ran his fingers down the Mountie's neck and shoulders massaging gently. He pushed his cock upwards wringing a moan out of his partner. Fraser increased the thrusting, and Ray arched his back off the floor in rhythm with his partner. Crying out each other's names, the partners came together long and hard spurting their semen between their sweat sheened bodies. Fraser flopped forward onto Ray, and both men struggled to control their breathing. Recovering first, Fraser grabbed his discarded shirt and wiped them clean. He pulled Ray into a warm protective embrace. "I love you too Ray," he whispered into his partner's ear. The fire crackled and blazed in the grate. The sound seemed peaceful and lulled the two men towards sleep, cuddled together amidst the cushions in the light of their love for each other. ************** Fraser had woken in the night gently lifting his partner into his arms. Ray hadn't stirred, and Fraser had carried him to their bed climbing in beside him, snuggling close. It was morning, and Fraser lay on his side watching his partner peacefully sleep. Fraser frowned; his partner's slumber hadn't always been restful. During the first few months, Ray had suffered terrible nightmares of his attack waking in the night screaming for help. Fraser could only hold him close until the smaller man had fallen exhausted back into sleep. The nightmares had gradually faded only re-appearing when Ray was upset or over tired. Fraser felt a deep hate for the still unknown attackers who had condemned Ray to live in darkness. Leaning over, he tenderly kissed the beautiful man who bravely coped with his disability every day. Fraser knew that his lover found his blindness frustrating, and it was a never ending battle for the slender blonde to overcome his impatience at his inability to sometimes carry out the simplest of tasks. Ray stirred. "Morning Ben," he mumbled sleepily turning into Fraser's embrace. "Good morning Ray," Fraser replied with a soft kiss. Fraser took the opportunity to study the pale expressive eyes that stared at him sightlessly. Even unseeing, the blue eyes still betrayed their owner's changeable moods, flashing with amusement and laughter, and at times anger, fear and pain. A sudden urge gripped him, and Fraser hugged Ray closer to his body wanting to shield him from any further hurt and pain. Ever restless, Ray wriggled out of the embrace stretching his lean body. "Time for breakfast" he said rolling out of their bed. "You don't have to," Fraser started to say. "I know, but I wanna," Ray said turning. "Ya shower. I'll start the coffee," he said shrugging into a robe and heading towards the small kitchen. Fraser sighed getting out of bed. He quickly showered and ambled into the kitchen. Sitting down he watched as Ray assuredly moved about the kitchen preparing their breakfast. They had carefully arranged the furniture in the small house so that Ray could find his way around easily without fear of tripping or falling over. Sometimes when he watched Ray moving confidently around the small house, Fraser couldn't believe that he was blind, imprisoned forever in a world without light. Fraser was startled out of his reverie by his partner moving close to him. "Here ya go," Ray handed him a mug of steaming liquid. "Yer coffee." Fraser raised his eye brows, sniffing at the mug. "I quite enjoy hot chocolate for breakfast," he teased as Ray sat down opposite him. "Oh," Ray said his face falling in disappointment at his mistake. "Them pots must have mixed themselves up again." "Well I'll just have to have a serious word with them," Fraser laughed grabbing for his lover's hand and squeezing it tightly in reassurance. "And I love hot chocolate." Ray brightened, grinning at the Mountie. "Toast?" Ray asked getting up moving towards the kitchen counter. "Are you sure it's toast?" Fraser teased. "Funny guy," Ray replied putting a plate of toast on the table. "Oh. I nearly forgot. Ilid dropped the mail off last night," he said. "It's on the coffee table," he indicated towards the living room. Fraser got up to retrieve the mail. Forgetting himself. "Anything interesting?" he bit his bottom lip cursing himself silently as soon as the words were out of his mouth. "Well. Just let me get my glasses," Ray quipped coming up behind the Mountie putting his arms around his waist resting his chin on Fraser's shoulder. "Sorry Ray," Fraser apologised. "I just forget sometimes." "Not yer fault," Ray replied. "I forget too sometimes." He turned his head kissing the back of Fraser's neck. "So is it just bills?" Fraser sorted through the envelopes. "Yes. And no," he answered. "There's one for you from Chicago." "Well open it then," Ray urged grinning. Fraser quickly ripped the envelope open scanning the contents. The letter was from Lieutenant Welsh informing Ray that he needed to go back to Chicago to settle his affairs and sign papers for his CPD pension and compensation for the attack. "Oh," Ray slumped onto the couch, his pale eyes staring sightlessly ahead. "Ray," Fraser frowned and sat down next to his partner. "What's wrong? I can get a week's leave and come with you. It won't be a problem." "Don't wanna go," Ray whispered. "Can't they send the papers here?" Fraser scanned the letter again. "I'm afraid not. It all seems fairly straight forward so I am sure that there won't be any problems," he replied. "It would appear that the medical board need to see you before they release your pension and compensation." Ray jumped up, his eyes blazing with anger. "What so they can tell me what I already know," he cried stepping backwards. "I don't need any..... any medical board to tell me that..... that I can't see. Will never be able to." "Ray," Fraser stood up moving towards his partner. "No," Ray took a step back. "They can keep their money," he turned and fell over the coffee table which in his anger he had forgotten was there. He landed hard and Fraser rushed over kneeling by his partner's side. "Ray," he pulled the slender blonde into a sitting position. He saw the pain and hurt reflected in the unseeing blue eyes. "It isn't just the medical board is it?" "Oh Ben," Ray murmured as he buried his head into the strong shoulder crying. "Don't wanna go. Don't wanna them to see me like this," he sobbed as Fraser tightened his embrace. "I'm.... I'm afraid." "Sshhh," Fraser soothed rocking the slender man in his arms. "You don't need to be afraid. I'll be there with you. And we don't have to go anywhere you don't want to," Fraser promised. He knew that Ray didn't want to visit the 27th precinct having stubbornly refused to have any contact with his friends and colleagues with the exception of Lieutenant Welsh. Ray pulled out of the embrace looking up at Fraser. "Ya promise," he asked. "I promise," Fraser reassured. "We'll stay at your old apartment. It will give us a chance to pack up your belongings and arrange for their shipment. And then when you've been to the medical board and signed the necessary paperwork, we'll come home." Ray thought for a moment. "OK," he agreed reluctantly. ************** Fraser lay in bed staring up at the ceiling. They had been in Chicago for two days. Upon their arrival, he had called Lieutenant Welsh who had arranged an urgent appointment for Ray with the medical board. Fraser didn't want to stay in the city any longer than was necessary; he knew that Ray was frightened and tense. He glanced over at his partner; Ray was on his side his back to the Mountie. Fraser shifted his position spooning his body protectively around the blonde, his arm slung over the slender waist. Ray murmured in his sleep moving backwards into the warmth. Fraser closed his eyes, waiting for sleep to claim him. He hadn't been asleep long when he awoke with a start; Ray was screaming in his sleep thrashing his arms about. "No. Leave me alone," Ray screamed. "Help me." Fraser sat up quickly taking hold of his partner. "Ray. Wake up. It's a bad dream," he shook his partner firmly. "Ray." "Ben?" Ray's eyes shot open, panic and terror showing in the paleness. Fraser hugged the trembling form tightly. "Ssshh. It was just a dream," he lowered his lover onto the bed drawing him close to his body. "I'm here. No-one can hurt you. I'll protect you," he soothed caressing his hand tenderly up and down the pale face. He felt Ray's body relax back into sleep. Fraser frowned; Ray's nightmares had returned with a vengeance. The night before, Ray had woken three times screaming out into the darkness. Fraser kissed Ray's cheek. "I'll protect you my love." ************** Ray sat slumped on the couch staring ahead miserably. He sipped at his lukewarm coffee. He was alone in the apartment, Fraser having left during the morning to visit Constable Turnbull at the Consulate, and arrange for the shipping agent to collect the packing cases that now littered the tiny apartment. He had always considered Chicago to be his home, but since the attack he had been afraid of the large sprawling city with its loud noises and busy sounds. He wanted to go home back to the small township where he felt safe and secure. Despite Fraser's love, Ray couldn't help feeling lonely and isolated in his dark world. He craved to see the light again, and his heart ached knowing that he would never see a sunrise or sunset again. But above all, he desperately wanted to see Fraser's face again. He loved the Mountie with all of his heart, and in his mind's eye he could imagine the beautiful face with inky blue eyes, framed by dark hair. He wiped at the tears that threatened, and he jumped up restlessly moved around the living room, his legs knocking against packing cases as he paced. Grabbing his jacket and his hated white stick, he headed towards the apartment door. "I'll go and meet him from the Consulate," he thought to himself as he shut the door behind him. He made it out of the apartment building without mishap. Standing on the top of the steps, he closed his eyes as he pictured the route to the Consulate. "I can do this. I can do this," he repeated to himself as he slowly made his way down the steps. He turned right ambling slowly along the street moving his stick left and right in front of him as he walked. After an hour, he decided that it hadn't been such a good idea admitting to himself that he was hopelessly lost. Some teenagers on roller blades had jostled him, and he thought he had turned himself around. His heart pounded, his mouth was dry and he was afraid. "Ben," he whispered to himself. The sounds of the city seemed alien to him, and his heightened hearing made them seem louder than usual. He managed to keep away from the road, recoiling at the sounds of the cars and the occasional blast of a horn and the cries of irritated drivers shouting at pedestrians as they tried to cross the street. Ray found the jumble of sounds disorientating making his head spin. It filled him with a fear that threatened to choke him. He could hear the voices of the people, could feel when they were close to him, their scents assailing his senses. They hurried by muttering an apology as they knocked into him. Shaking his head, he tried to shut out the sounds. "Get outta the way ya stupid jerk," a loud voice shouted at him and Ray shrunk back in terror. Large hands pushed him to one side roughly. Dropping his white stick, Ray's back hit something solid, and he stood frozen hugging the wall wishing desperately that Fraser was there. Trying to keep calm and taking a deep breath, Ray started to feel his way along the wall, tears stinging at his eyes. He brushed at them with the sleeve of his jacket. "Are you lost young man?" a voice said in front of him. Startled he shook his head edging away from the stranger. Ray shrunk away from the voice fumbling his way along the wall with one hand. "Let me help you," the voice said. Ray felt someone touch his arm, and he flinched in fear. Ray shook his head again inching away from the voice slowly. He broke into a run groping his way along the wall; he could hear the voice still shouting at him. In his panic he stumbled as he turned into an alleyway. Regaining his balance, he walked quickly down the alleyway his right arm outstretched in front of him. He yelped in pain as he collided with a rubbish dumpster. Defeated, frightened and lost Ray slid down the metal container. Drawing up his knees, he wrapped his arms tightly around his legs, resting his head. "Ben," he sobbed. "Help me." ************** Fraser opened the apartment door. "Ray," he called as he shrugged off his coat hanging it on the coat hook. "Ray," he repeated. Silence. Heart racing, Fraser quickly searched the apartment; Ray was no-where to be found. "Ray. Where are you?" he thought desperately. Pulling on his coat, he was just about to leave the apartment to search for his lover when the telephone rang. Picking up the receiver. "Sergeant Benton Fraser," he said as he listened to the voice on the other end. He sighed in relief. "Yes. Thank goodness. Yes. I'll be right over. Thank you kindly Lieutenant Welsh." Hanging up the telephone, Fraser ran out of the apartment building and hailed a cab. ************** The cab journey seemed to take forever; Fraser stared out of the window willing the driver to go faster. Paying the cab driver, Fraser ran into the 27th precinct. The lieutenant met him on the stairs. "Where is he?" Fraser asked. "Is he alright? Is he hurt?" Lieutenant Welsh put up his hand in an effort to stop Fraser's babbling. "Calm down Sergeant. He's fine. Just gave himself a bit of a scare. A patrolman found him huddled in an alleyway. Recognised him and brought him here," he answered. "Miss Vecchio, Huey and Dewey are with him in the break room although it don't seem to be helping." The lieutenant regarded the Mountie. "I think he needs you," he grinned as Fraser blushed bright red. Fraser followed the lieutenant towards the break room. Looking through the door, he saw Ray sitting on a chair his arms wrapped around his slender body. He was trembling uncontrollably resisting Francesca's attempts at comforting him flinching at her every touch. Huey, Dewey and a few other officers were standing nearby staring at the ex-detective as though he was the main attraction in a zoo. Fraser heard the lieutenant cursing silently under his breath. Until this moment, Fraser hadn't realised how isolated Ray's world was. He was in a place he should feel secure in, had worked in for over a year, but his lover was obviously in distress, the slender body trembling with fear. Fraser quickly stepped into the room pushing his way through the crowd of police officers. Fraser couldn't help a small smile as Ray seemed to sense his presence, his head jerking towards him. "Ben?" he whimpered. Fraser's sharp hearing caught Dewey asking his partner how Ray knew it was the Mountie. He ignored the comment kneeling in front of his partner taking his hands and squeezing them in comfort. "Yes Ray. It's me." "Hiya Frase," Francesca said smiling down seductively at the Mountie. Fraser looked up. "Francesca," he nodded coolly. "Men can be such babies sometimes," she pointed at Ray. "The idiot wouldn't let me touch him." "Ray is not an idiot," Fraser glared at the small woman, making her step back in astonishment at the expression on his face. "And I'm not surprised he wouldn't let you touch him with all of you staring at him like he was some kind of exhibit," he snapped. "But..," Francesca stammered. Fraser scowled again and she stopped mid-sentence. "He may not be able to see you, but he can sense you all. Did anyone talk to him like he was a normal person?" He thought he heard Huey mutter that they didn't know what to say. Fraser glared angrily at the group. "I thought as much," he turned his back on them carefully embracing the smaller man. He gently caressed Ray's face with the back of his hand. "Are you alright?" Fraser asked concern apparent in his voice. "Am now," Ray whispered leaning into the embrace, his trembling beginning to subside. "Right everybody out," Welsh commanded opening the door. "Now." The officers filed past their commanding officer, some looking guiltily down at the floor. "Now Miss Vecchio," Welsh said firmly as Francesca hesitated. He grabbed her arm dragging her out of the room leaving the partners alone. Fraser cast a grateful smile at the older man. He turned his attention back to Ray. "What did you think you were doing?" Fraser lightly scolded still caressing the pale face reassuringly. "Thought I'd come and meet ya. Like I do sometimes at home," Ray said softly. "But the..... the noise kinda confused me. And I sorta lost.... lost my bearings." "Oh Ray," Fraser sighed. "The noise was so.... so loud, and it kinda scared me," Ray murmured. "I used to know this city, but I didn't know where I was." He shivered and Fraser tightened his hold. "I wanna go home Ben," Ray pleaded. "I don't belong here any more. Please." Fraser kissed the top of Ray's head. "We can go home on Saturday." "We can?" Ray said looking up hopefully. The expression turned into a frown. "But the medical....," he started to say. Fraser hushed him. "I spoke with Lieutenant Welsh earlier today. He has arranged for you to sign the paperwork without seeing the medical board. I understand he argued your case producing your medical records which seemed to satisfy them," he explained. "The papers are back at your apartment ready for you to sign." "Oh," Ray murmured dropping his head guiltily. "Sorry Ben." Fraser tilted Ray's head upwards stroking the pale face. "It's alright. You're safe. That's all that's important," Fraser pulled the blonde to his feet. "Now let's get back to the apartment and finish packing," he said. "Then we can go home." Ray smiled weakly and nodded; he clutched at the Mountie's arm in comfort. Lieutenant Welsh watched at Fraser led his partner down the corridor. Kowalski held onto the Mountie's arm tightly. Fraser was softly murmuring to the slender man as they walked. They seemed lost in their own world and the lieutenant smiled to himself as he remembered something that his mother had told him just before he had married. "Son, everyone in love is unique, and every pair of lovers creates a singular world for themselves. Yet all lovers share a common purpose, the courage to be in love," he thought to himself. He turned to walk back towards his office. "Wise words Mom," he grinned but it seemed to describe Fraser and Kowalski and he knew, as he had known six months ago, that the two men would take care of each other. ************** When the partners had gotten back to the apartment, Fraser had ordered pizza for their supper. They sat amongst the packing cases eating in companionable silence, Fraser lightly holding Ray's hand. Fraser disappeared into the kitchen to make a drink and clear away the dishes. When he returned, his partner was standing at the window staring across the city. He moved over wrapping his arms around Ray's upper body. He lightly kissed Ray's shoulder as the blonde leaned back into the embrace bringing his hands up to rest on Fraser's arms. "Tell me what it looks like Ben," he said quietly. "Is it a pretty night?" Fraser stared across the city. "Yes Ray. It is," he replied pulling Ray closer to him. Ray twisted in the embrace looking up at Fraser's face. "Paint me a picture," he pleaded. "So I can see it too. Please." "Very well," Fraser kissed the top of Ray's head noticing that the blonde had closed his eyes. He took a deep breath. "The night is very clear. The dark blueblack sky has no clouds. But you can see the occasional flashing red light as an aircraft passes across the city sky," he paused looking down lovingly at the man in his arms. "Can you see it Ray?" "Mmmm. Go on Ben," Ray encouraged not opening his eyes. "The lights of the city are twinkling like beacons rising up into the sky, competing with one another each trying to be the brightest light. Orange, red and yellow neon lights blink inviting the people of Chicago to eat pizza and fast food," Fraser beamed as Ray chuckled. "But the stars are sparkling and shimmering high above the tall city buildings easily winning the brightest light contest," Fraser finished smiling. "That's beautiful Ben," Ray murmured turning in the Mountie's embrace. "Yer good at painting," he reached up kissing Fraser softly. The Mountie returned the kiss. Releasing his lover. "Could ya find me a CD? I wanna play it to ya," Ray said. "I think it's the fourth one down on the left." Fraser kissed Ray's nose. "Of course. Describe the cover," Fraser said kneeling down in front of the CD rack. He selected the CD as instructed and placed it in the player suppressing his surprise at how organised the CDs seemed to be. Ray held his hands out towards the Mountie. "Dance with me?" he asked shyly. Fraser beamed as he got to his feet; it was the first time since the attack that Ray had shown any interest in dancing. "It would be my pleasure Ray," Fraser smiled taking the smaller man into his arms pulling him close. Reaching over, he hit the play button. A sweet melody filled the tiny apartment which the Mountie vaguely recognised; Fraser was surprised when Ray started to softly sing as he began to waltz the Mountie around the living room. Have I told you lately that I love you? Have I told you there's no one above you You fill my heart with gladness Take away my sadness Ease my troubles that's what you do There's a love that's divine And it's yours and it's mine Like the sun At the end of the day We should give thanks and pray To the one To the one Despite his blindness, Ray didn't stumble, but gracefully danced them backwards and forwards. Fraser followed his every move, letting the smaller man take the lead. They fit together perfectly as though they belonged together. Fraser joined Ray in singing the last verse. Oh the morning sun in all its glory Greets the day with hope and comfort too You fill my life with laughter You can make it better Ease my troubles that's what you do Have I told you lately that I love you? (Morrison - 1998) The track ended and Ray stopped dancing; the partners remained in the embrace, content to hold each other, caressing gently with their hands. Ray reached up towards Fraser's face stroking gently with his slender fingers. He turned his pale eyes upwards to look at the Mountie. "Wish I could see ya," he said quietly. "Yer so beautiful." Fraser took hold of the hand that was caressing his face, lightly kissing the fingers one by one. "But you do see me," he murmured laughing lightly at the look of confusion on Ray' face. Fraser tapped his partner's chest. "You see me with your heart." Ray tilted his head downwards flushing slightly. "Ben," he protested shyly. "Ray," Fraser sighed slightly. "You have shown me more love than I have ever known in my life. I don't care that you can't see me," he raised Ray's head so he was staring directly into the sightless eyes. "I love you. And I will love you forever." Ray seemed to consider the words for a moment, then smiled back. "I love you too Ben. Very much," he murmured as he claimed Fraser's lips in a passionate kiss. "Make love to me Ben." Fraser whispered in his partner's ear before lifting Ray into his arms. Walking to the bedroom, Fraser lay him gently on the bed. Ray pulled Fraser down on top of him. "Love ya Ben," he sighed as he thrust his growing arousal into the Mountie's groin. Fraser moaned gyrating his hips causing the slender detective to squeak in pleasure as he felt Fraser's erection through his jeans. Caressing and stroking, the partners removed each other's clothes throwing them untidily onto the floor. They lay side by side gliding their naked bodies against each other groaning with delight and ecstasy at the friction. Ray ran his hands up and down Fraser's arms feeling the strength in the muscles. Fraser licked down Ray's face towards his shoulder. He bit lightly marking the pale skin. As Ray caressed his back, Fraser traced a path down the slender body towards Ray's nipples. Ray gasped as Fraser sucked on each nipple twirling his tongue around each one in turn. Fraser worked his way up the slender body claiming his partner's lips hungrily, thrusting his tongue in and out of the warm mouth. "Need ya Ben," Ray murmured as he slipped a hand between their bodies grasping Fraser's cock running his hand up and down the hardness. "Need to feel ya inside me," he breathed as Fraser whimpered in rapture at the gentle touch. The Mountie flipped the smaller man onto his back, straddling him. Grabbing a pillow, he positioned it under Ray's hips. Fraser took possession of Ray's lips sucking on the bottom lip requesting entry. Ray opened his mouth, and the partner's tongues duelled and sucked on each other. Moans of passion and love filled the small room as the men explored each other with tongues and hands gently caressing. "Take me now Ben," Ray whispered spreading his legs drawing his knees up to his chest. "Want ya inside me." Fraser groaned in pleasure at the request settling himself between Ray's spread legs. He wet his fingers thoroughly; leaning forward he whispered into Ray's ear. Ray smiled as Fraser gently inserted one finger into his lover's body. Ray arched his back off the bed. "Oh God Ben." Encouraged by his lover's reaction, Fraser carefully inserted a second and third finger pushing them slowly in and out of the slender body. Ray was moaning in ecstasy his eyes closed. He ran his hands up and down Fraser's back and firm ass. "Love ya Ben," he chanted. "Love you too Ray," Fraser leaned forward capturing Ray's lips in a passionate but gentle kiss. He removed his fingers from Ray's body and tenderly fondled his balls, running his fingers up and down his partner's erection. "Are you ready?" Fraser asked as he shifted slightly bringing his cock dripping with pre-cum to Ray's opening. "Oh God. Yes," Ray squirmed under Fraser's body. "Take me now." Fraser smiled and pushed his cock forwards slowly into his lover's body. Ray let out a wail of ecstasy and propelled his hips upwards to meet the Mountie. Fraser grunted with desire plunging his penis deep into his lover's body with one smooth thrust. "You feel so good," Fraser sighed as he began to move his cock up and down in the smooth channel. He leant forward kissing Ray tenderly as he pressed his cock further into the small body. "So do ya," Ray cried as Fraser's penis hit his prostate. He gripped his own cock stroking up and down. Fraser wrapped his larger hand around Ray's slender one, moving in tandem with him as they both caressed Ray's erection setting up a delicious rhythm which wrung moans from each man. Ray arched his back off the bed as he shot his sperm over their hands and between their bodies. He cried out Fraser's name as his orgasm overtook him. Ray sunk back onto the bed breathless. As Fraser felt Ray tighten around his cock he plunged deeper into his lover's body. As Fraser thrust into him Ray lifted his hands to the Mountie's face tenderly tracing his slender fingers over the Mountie's features, seeing him with touch. Breathing hard, Fraser thrust in and out of the tight channel furiously. Fraser felt his balls tighten, and he squeezed his eyes shut as he rammed his cock deep into Ray's body. His orgasm came long and hard as he released his semen deep within the waiting body crying out Ray's name over and over. Panting Fraser slumped forwards managing to balance himself on his elbows above his lover's body. Ray continued to caress his face lightly with the back of his hands as Fraser struggled to control his breathing. Fraser rolled onto his side carefully removing his softening cock from his lover's body. Ray turned onto his side moving close to the warm body. Fraser automatically wrapped his arms around the slender blonde protectively. They lay in contented in each other's arms luxuriating in the afterglow of their love making. "Thank you," Ray murmured against the soft skin. Fraser shifted in the embrace looking at the blonde. "For what?" he asked. "For being here. For being you," Ray replied nuzzling Fraser's neck lovingly. "For being my eyes. For painting me pictures. And for loving me even though I'm damaged goods." "Oh Ray," Fraser sighed in exasperation. "You are not damaged goods. You are my perfect beautiful Ray," he pulled the smaller man closer to him. "I'm damaged too." "Nah ya aint," Ray protested. "Yer perfect." Fraser sighed silently knowing that he wouldn't win this argument. One day he would convince his lover that he was beautiful. "Saint Bernard of Clairvaux," he started to say. "Who?" Ray interrupted wriggling in the embrace. "And what's he got to do with us?" "Ray," Fraser said exasperated. "If you would just listen, and stop wriggling. I'll tell you." Fraser leant down to kiss the blonde head. "Knock yerself out," Ray teased returning the kiss. "I'm all ears." "Saint Bernard was a French ecclesiastic who lived in the tenth century," Fraser enlightened his partner. Ray couldn't help himself. "Wow go figure." "Ray," Fraser put his fingers over his lover's lips to keep him quiet. "He said that we find rest in those we love, and we provide a resting place in ourselves for those who love us." "Mmmm. That sounds nice Ben," Ray murmured sleepily. "I still don't follow." "Well what I am trying to say between your interruptions and fidgeting," he smiled fondly down at his lover. "Is that's how I feel about us. We found each other, and we provide each other with a resting place for our love," Fraser explained. "I get it now. Sounds kinda right," Ray muttered. "Finding peace with each other. I like that. I can do that." "And it doesn't matter how damaged we both are. It's our love for each other that counts," Fraser continued. "You are my light Ray. And I love you." "I love you Ben," Ray his head staring sightlessly at the Mountie. "It's dark in my world, but when I'm with ya, I can see the light," he lifted his hand to Fraser's face feeling the Mountie smile broadly. The two men cuddled together as the lights of the city dimmed into night. A beam of light from a streetlight shone through the crack in the curtain bathing the lovers in a golden hue as sleep claimed them. THE END Love it. Hate it. Views to: [email protected]

Due South and all of its characters belong to Alliance Communications. Views to: [email protected] A third in my "Love in the Light" series. Follows Light and Darkness and Shades of Grey. Enjoy! THE POWER OF LOVE by Callie "Love is an endless mystery for it has nothing else to explain it" Sergeant Benton Fraser glanced down at his watch as he paced his small office listening to Liesl, the Post's part-time secretary, reading back his dictated monthly report. He wandered unthinkingly towards the window peering out through the drawn curtains knowing without looking that Ray would be sitting on the low wall patiently waiting for him. Dief was laying protectively at the slender man's feet. Fraser felt a surge of love fill his heart for the gentle blonde haired man, who had been through so much in the last few months. Permanently blinded in a senseless attack, Ray had bravely struggled to come to terms with his disability. Fraser had been at his side encouraging and gently coaxing until his partner felt confident in his abilities. Ray still got angry and frustrated at his inability to sometimes to carry out the simplest tasks, but he never gave up trying even harder to succeed the next time. Fraser hadn't experienced much love in his lifetime and had trouble believing that anyone could love him, but ten months after they had declared their love for each other, the partners were still deliriously happy together, each finding in the other an inner strength mixed with love, passion and affection. Their love for each other deepened each day surrounding them in an aura of light and happiness. Shortly after their return from Chicago to settle Ray's affairs, they had moved out of the RCMP house, pooling their resources to buy a comfortable one storeyed house with a barn for their team of dogs. For the first time in his life, Fraser felt happy and content. He was startled out of his reverie by Liesl. "Is there anything you want to add Sergeant Fraser?" she asked smiling. Fraser flushed slightly. "No. Thank you kindly Liesl," Fraser replied. "You get off home. You can type the report tomorrow." Liesl got up, pad in hand. "Thanks Sergeant," she beamed. Turning at the door. "I hope Ray likes his surprise." Fraser smiled. "I am sure he will," Fraser said as he moved towards the closet to retrieve his heavy coat. "Thank your father for me." "I will," Liesl replied as she closed the door behind her. Fraser quickly locked his desk turning off the lights as he made his way towards the entrance. Taking a final look around the small Post, he shrugged into his coat. He carefully locked the door behind him, and ambled down the path towards his lover. As he approached Ray's head jerked towards him, his pale blue sightless eyes staring at him. A bright smile lit up his face, and Fraser's heart lurched with love at the sight. "Good evening Ray," he grinned feeling a warm glow rise up inside him. Dief jumped up, and Fraser fondled his furry nose in greeting. The wolf whined. "Hiya Ben," Ray replied standing up his hands shoved deep into his pockets, his hated white stick tucked under his arm. Fraser leant forward brushing his lips across his partners. Ray eagerly returned the kiss. The partners broke free of each other and started to make their way along the street, Dief running along in front of them. Ray held onto Fraser's arm as the Mountie guided him towards their home. Noticing Ray's bare hands. "Where are your gloves Ray?" Fraser scolded lightly. "Got themselves lost again," Ray replied sheepishly. Fraser sighed to himself in exasperation. They had organised the furniture in their home carefully so that Ray wouldn't trip or fall. However, Fraser hadn't succeeded in getting his lover to organise his clothes to make things easier to find. Ray's haphazard organisation of his closet and drawers were a constant source of frustration to the ultra-organised Mountie. "I see," he sighed. Ray squeezed his arm. "Wouldn't be me if I could find my gloves," Ray protested. "And anyways ya love me. Gloves or no gloves." Fraser smiled fondly. "Yes I do. Gloves or no gloves," he agreed as they reached the steps to their home. Dief ran into the warmth of the small house as soon as Fraser unlocked the door. Ray turned on the top step staring out blindly towards the small township. "Funny aint it? I love this place, but I aint never seen it," he said wistfully. Fraser bit his lip in an effort to stifle threatened tears. Moving forward he wrapped his arms around Ray's upper body resting his head on his partner's shoulder. Fraser looked out across the township. "I'll paint you a picture," he said quietly. Ray twisted in the embrace looking up at Fraser. "Please," he whispered closing his eyes. Fraser stared out into the night. "It reminds me of that night in Chicago," he started to say. Ray shivered slightly; Fraser tightened the embrace knowing that Ray was afraid of the city. He continued. "The sky is a beautiful indigo blueblack colour. There are no clouds so I can see all the stars shining brightly in the night sky." Pausing, he kissed the top of Ray's blonde hair. "And the light makes the snow look eerily white, almost like it's glowing. Makes everything seem quiet and peaceful." "Sounds pretty," Ray murmured. "Now tell me about the town?" "Well. There's no tall office buildings like Chicago. And no flashing neon signs advertising fast food and pizza," Fraser said. "Pity," Ray interrupted. Fraser chuckled. "But the small houses that make up the township give off their own light. They are all painted different colours on the outside - reds, green and browns. And I can see light coming through the drawn curtains throwing out an orange glow onto the white snow. And over there," he turned Ray slightly. "In darkness is the school house and the Mountie post." "You paint good Ben," Ray muttered opening his eyes. "Thank you kindly," Fraser tugged at Ray pulling him towards the door. "Let's go inside. It's cold out here." Once inside Fraser helped Ray out of his anorak; he hung both their coats tidily on the hooks by the door. Ray had moved towards the small kitchen, and was busying himself with making them hot chocolate humming quietly to himself, Dief at his heels begging for a treat. Fraser slipped into their bedroom and quickly changed into jeans and a cream sweater. Seeing that Ray was still busy in the kitchen, he quickly sneaked outside to the barn to retrieve Ray's surprise gift. ************** "Ben," Ray carefully brought the mugs out into the living room placing them on the small coffee table. "Hot chocolate's up." He sensed that his lover was not in the room. "Hey Ben. Where are ya?" he called moving towards their bedroom. He swung round as he felt the door open, an icy blast of cold air filling the room for a moment. "Ben?" Fraser grinned moving towards his lover. "I brought you a present," he said shyly. "Hold your arms out towards me Ray." Ray moved closer to the sound of Fraser's voice, his arms outstretched in front of him. He felt Fraser place a small wriggling furry bundle into his arms, and he instinctively pulled his arms towards his slender body. "A puppy," he smiled as the small bundle licked his face enthusiastically. "Well I thought it was time you had a dog of your own," Fraser said. "Liesl's father breeds sledge dogs. This little one is the runt of his latest litter." "What's he look like?" Ray asked his pale eyes shining with delight. "Well, he's a wolfhusky cross," Fraser explained. "He's grey and white, and he has blue eyes." "Hey. Maybe he's a relative of Dief's," Ray declared cuddling the puppy. "I sincerely hope not," Fraser teased. "One wolf with a junk food habit is bad enough." Dief whined in protest from his position on the couch. Ray carefully placed the puppy down on the couch. Diefenbaker curled protectively around the smaller dog. Moving closer to Fraser, Ray wrapped his arms around the Mountie. "Thanks Ben. I love him," he whispered. "But not as much as I love ya," he seized his lover's lips sucking gently requesting entry. Fraser opened his mouth letting Ray plunge into the warmth. He moaned as Ray's tongue explored his mouth. "Love ya Ben," Ray murmured into this mouth. "Always miss ya when yer at work." "Oh Ray," Fraser moaned. "I miss you as well. I think about you all day." "Hey. Let's skip the hot chocolate," Ray suggested dragging Fraser towards their bedroom. Fraser kicked the door closed with his foot as he embraced the slender man tightly capturing his warm lips in a passionate kiss. Ray leaned into the kiss willingly. The partners caressed one another's bodies tenderly as they kissed conveying their love for each other with touch. Ray moaned as Fraser rubbed his growing arousal against his thigh. Ray responded by thrusting his erection into the Mountie's groin wringing a impassioned cry from his lover. Fraser moved them slowly towards their bed, and they collapsed in a tangle of arms and legs. With practised hands, they removed each other's clothes throwing them onto the floor. They lay side by side gloriously naked. Ray began to trace a path up and down his partner's body with his slender hands memorising every muscle. His fingers massaged Fraser's nipples delicately, and Fraser groaned in delight. Moving on, his fingers tracked their way up towards the Mountie's face. Fraser smiled as Ray ran his fingers over his face, seeing him with touch. "Yer so beautiful," Ray murmured claiming his lover's lip thrusting his tongue into the warm mouth. Fraser pulled the smaller man closer to him. Their erections touched and both men started to grind into each other, causing a delightful friction. The small room was filled with the sound of the partners' lovemaking as they breathed the other's name in affection and love. Fraser flipped Ray onto his back straddling him. "I want to make love to you," he murmured into his lover's neck. In answer, Ray grabbed a pillow pushing it under his slender hips. "I want ya to Ben," he whispered. Taking the Mountie's hand, he licked each finger in turn. Fraser pushed Ray's legs apart carefully positioning himself. Fraser leaned forward possessing his partner's mouth in a kiss biting and nipping at the warm lips. He opened his mouth allowing Ray to thrust his tongue into the warm space exploring. As Fraser carefully inserted a finger into his body, Ray thrust his tongue deep into Fraser's mouth moaning in ecstasy. Emboldened by his lover's reaction, Fraser carefully introduced a second and third finger. Ray thrust his tongue in and out as the Mountie moved his fingers up and down the tight channel. Ray ran his hands up and down Fraser's strong back and ass. Both men were panting with desire and hunger for each other. Ray whimpered as Fraser removed his fingers. Fraser smiled wrapping his larger hand around Ray's erection gently pumping up and down. He stroked Ray's erection smoothly running his fingers around the tip leaking with pre-cum. Leaning forward slightly, Fraser engulfed Ray's penis into his mouth licking and sucking up and down the hardness. Running the tip of his tongue down the hardness, he sucked on Ray's balls gently. Ray groaned Fraser's name in ecstasy running his hands through the Mountie's hair. Fraser pressed a knuckle gently in the soft skin behind, eliciting a moan from his lover. He pressed again, and Ray arched his back off the bed as he came long and hard spurting his semen into Fraser's waiting mouth. Fraser swallowed at every spasm until Ray sunk back into the bed fighting to regain his breathing. With one last lick, Fraser moved back up the bed kissing his lover gently. "Want to feel ya come inside me," Ray murmured into the Mountie's mouth. Releasing Ray from the kiss, Fraser spread Ray's legs again positioning himself at the smaller man's opening. With a gentle forward thrust, he entered the small body. Ray groaned and lifted his hips upwards to meet Fraser's initial penetration. Fraser continued to push forwards gently; Ray cried out as Fraser's penis hit his prostate. "I love you Ray," he whispered as he began to move his cock in and out of the small body beneath him. "I love ya too," Ray reached up taking hold of the Mountie's face. "Need to see ya come," he muttered stroking the strong features tenderly. Fraser plunged his cock deeper into the body he loved with each thrust. Ray murmured his name every time Fraser's penis hit his prostate. Fraser rammed his cock deep inside Ray as he felt his balls tighten. Screwing his eyes shut, he cried out Ray's name as he shot his warm semen into the waiting body. Ray felt Fraser's cock pulsing inside him as the Mountie released his seed deep within his body. He sighed still stroking Fraser's face lovingly. As his orgasm ceased, Fraser flopped forwards onto his partner. He panted loudly as he tried to control his breathing. He rolled sideways removing his softening cock from Ray's body. Fraser pulled Ray towards him. "I love you Ray," he whispered stroking his face gently. "Love ya too," Ray muttered sleepily snuggling into the warm embrace. Fraser pulled the blankets over them, and cuddled up to his partner. He gently kissed his lover on the tip of his nose. Ray murmured in his sleep and Fraser smiled down with affection. He closed his eyes waiting for sleep to claim him content in his love. ************** Fraser watched his lover sleep, his breaths deep and even. He loved this time in the morning before Ray woke. Fraser sighed to himself; he had to travel to the other townships in his area. He worried about leaving Ray for any length of time, but he knew the people of the town would keep a watchful eye on his lover while he was away. He pulled the smaller man closer to his body protectively. Ray stirred, his pale eyes opening slowly. Fraser stole a light kiss. "Good morning Ray," he said. Ray stretched his lean body. "Morning Ben," he mumbled still sleepy. "I have to get up soon," Fraser said softly. "Need to get prepared for my trip." Ray looked upwards, his unseeing blue eyes staring at the Mountie. "Wish ya didn't have to go," he said quietly. "I'll only be away four days at the most," Fraser answered. "And I do need to visit the other townships that are within my responsibility." "Yeh I know, but I just..... just miss ya," Ray replied. "I miss you too Ray," Fraser replied. "Very much," he said as he captured his partner's lip in a passionate kiss. Ray responded leaning into the kiss. ************** They showered together lazily washing each other revelling in touching each other. Ray then cooked them breakfast of eggs, bacon and potatoes. Fraser was so proud of his lover's accomplishments despite his blindness that he didn't mention that the eggs were slightly hard, and the bacon was burnt at the edges. He knew that Ray didn't want to be burden insisting on cooking their meals and keeping their home tidy. Fraser gathered together his back pack as Ray dumped the dishes into the sink. "Are ya taking our dogs?" Ray asked coming out of the kitchen. "No. I thought I would try the Post's new team," Fraser replied pulling his partner into a warm embrace. He tenderly caressed the smaller man's face, kissing him lightly. "Will you be alright here alone?" he asked concern in his voice. Ray returned the kiss. "Yeh. I'll be fine. I got Dief and Chicago," he answered. "Chicago?" Fraser asked puzzled. "Yeh. Decided to call the puppy Chicago. Do ya like it?" Ray asked. "Gonna have a whole team named after US states." "I see," Fraser smiled as he guided Ray towards the door, one arm wrapped around the slender waist, his back pack in his other hand. "You will remember to eat won't you?" Ray gave him a dirty look. "Yes Mum," he teased. "I know you Ray," Fraser scolded lightly. "I could ask Liesl's father to look after our team, if you like," Fraser offered. "Nah. Dief always tells me if I got it right," Ray said. "I'll be fine, don't worry." "But I do worry," Fraser protested taking Ray's hands into his squeezing them tightly. "I know," Ray interrupted. "I worry about ya too." He kissed Fraser tenderly. "I love ya," he whispered. "I'll keep yer side of the bed warm." "I love you too Ray," Fraser returned the kiss. "Very much." Fraser released Ray's hand at the bottom step. With a final kiss, he started to trudge towards the Mountie Post to prepare the team of dogs. He looked over his shoulder; Ray was standing at the bottom of the steps waving frantically in his direction. Sighing in exasperation. "Go inside in the warm," Fraser yelled. "Yes Mum," Ray shouted as he turned and made his way slowly up the steps. ************** The days seemed to drag for Ray. He busied himself in the small town visiting his many friends. He helped out in the small store two morning a week, stacking shelves and serving behind the counter. Ilid had dragged him to the school that afternoon to tell the children another story of his adventures with Fraser in Chicago. He now sat slumped on the couch listening to his music. Chicago was curled up in his lap, Dief at his feet. Ray felt content; he loved the town and the people who had welcomed him with open arms ignoring his blindness and involving him in their daily life. He knew in his heart that he wasn't much use in the small store, but the owners insisted he came every Monday and Tuesday, and he was grateful for their kindness. It made him feel wanted and useful. Even after ten months, he hadn't gotten used to the eternal darkness that he had been condemned to live in. He shivered slightly; he couldn't remember the attack that had cast him into the dark and lonely world. He knew if it hadn't been for Fraser and his love, he would have sunken into a pit of despair; Fraser made him feel wanted, loved and needed. His heart ached sometimes knowing that he would never see the Mountie's beautiful face ever again. He closed his eyes picturing the face of the man he loved desperately. Whenever Ray thought of Fraser, he thought of him standing in the snow, Dief at his heels. Ray was startled out of his reverie by a loud knocking at the door. Ray answered the door on the fourth knock, Chicago under one arm. He felt his hand being taken in a warm handshake. "Hello my boy," a familiar voice said. "How are you?" "Hiya Buck. Come in," Ray grinned in recognition standing aside. "What brings ya here? Ben sent ya to check up on me." Sergeant Buck Frobisher's expression changed, and he was glad that Ray couldn't see his face. He stood quietly in the small living room, his body tense his shoulders slumped downwards. Ray sensed the change in the older Mountie's demeanour. "What?" he demanded as he placed the puppy on the floor. "Tell me. Is it Ben? What's happened?" Ray asked panic showing in his voice. "Is he hurt?" Frobisher dropped his head. "He's missing," he answered quietly. "What do ya mean missing?" Ray asked stepping back his eyes full of confusion. "Ben can't be missing. He's coming home tonight." Frobisher took a deep breath. "When Ben didn't reach the town at the designated time, they went to look for him. They found his sledge, dogs and supplies," he explained. "But no sign of Ben. They've been looking for two days." "And now they've given up," Ray snapped. "And sent ya to tell me." "No, they haven't given up. But...," Buck started to say. Ray took another step backwards stopping the older Mountie mid-sentence. "Ya think he's dead, don't ya?" Ray accused tears springing to his eyes. "He wouldn't leave me. He promised." "May be he didn't have a choice. No-one could survive in the harsh conditions without supplies," Frobisher said quietly. "Not even Ben." "No," Ray cried wiping at the tears running down his face. "He's not dead. He promised. He's...... he's a Mountie and they don't lie." Ray turned his back on Frobisher, battling to control his tears. He wrapped his arms around his body trying to stop the ache that was spreading across his chest. Frobisher moved towards the younger man wanting to wrap his arms around him in comfort. He knew how much Ray and Fraser meant to each other. "Ray," he said touching the slender man's shoulder lightly so as not to startle him. Ray flinched away form the touch. "No," Ray cried. "He's not dead. He's not," he moved towards the bedroom slamming the door behind him. "I won't believe it." Frobisher stared at the bedroom door as he heard Ray's muffled sobs coming from behind the door. ************** After Frobisher had settled his team of dogs into the barn, he made himself a light supper. Clearing away the dishes, he turned on the light moving quietly towards the bedroom. Opening the door, he peered inside; Ray was on the top of the bed fully clothed. He was curled up asleep, a cream sweater clutched tightly to his thin body. In the dim light, Frobisher could see the tear tracks down the thin pale face. Buck knew that despite his slender frame Ray was strong and determined, but right now he looked vulnerable and fragile. He moved towards the bed quietly. "Cried yourself to sleep, did you?" Buck thought sadly to himself as he gently pulled Ray's boots off. He covered up the blonde up with a warm blanket. Ray mumbled in his sleep. Buck turned to leave the room as Ray sat bolt upright screaming. "Ben," Ray cried out. "Ben," he looked wildly around the room with unseeing eyes. "Ben. Where are you?" Buck sat on the bed carefully putting his hand on Ray's arm. The blonde flinched back in fear. "Ben?" he asked confused. "No. It's Buck ," Frobisher soothed. "Where's Ben?" Ray whimpered still confused with sleep. Buck stroked the slender man's arm in comfort. "He's not here." Ray clutched the sweater tightly to his body, his pale eyes filling with tears as he remembered. He started to tremble wiping at the tears. Frobisher sat on the edge of the bed pulling Ray into an embrace. Ray tried to struggle out of the embrace, but Frobisher was stronger. Ray surrendered burying his head in the Sergeant's shoulder sobbing wretchedly. Buck rubbed his hands up and down Ray's back. "Ssshh, my boy," he soothed. Ray pulled out of the embrace. "I saw him. I saw Ben," he choked. "He's alive. I saw him." Frobisher nodded kindly. "Alright Ray," he pushed the blonde back down onto the bed covering him up. "Now go back to sleep." "But..... but I saw Ben," Ray insisted his eyes closing. "It was just a dream Ray," Frobisher sat on the edge of the bed gently stroking the blonde hair watching as sleep claimed his friend. Dief jumped up on the bed snuggling close to Ray protectively. Chicago yipped in protest and Frobisher lifted the small husky puppy onto the bed. The puppy curled up close to Dief and Ray. ************** Ray woke with a start; he had been dreaming about Fraser. He turned on his back his hand resting lightly on Dief's furry back. "He's alive Dief. I just know it," he whispered to the wolf. Dief whined in agreement. Mind made up, Ray swung his legs off the bed fumbling on the floor for his boots. Finding them, he tugged them on. He pulled Fraser's cream sweater over his sweatshirt, and rummaging in his untidy closet, he managed to find his rucksack. He crept out into the living room; he could hear the Sergeant snoring, the sound coming from the direction of the couch. Moving quietly about the kitchen area, Ray stuffed some supplies into the rucksack. He tiptoed towards the door, feeling for his anorak and hat. Shrugging into the coat he grabbed his stick, opening the door. Dief and Chicago followed as he made his way slowly down the street towards the outskirts of the small town. "Hang on Ben. I'm coming," he thought to himself. ************** Sergeant Buck Frobisher pushed his dogs faster. He had woken late in the morning to find the small house quiet. He had been troubled to find Ray and the two wolves missing. He had dressed quickly, hitched up his dog team and headed towards open country. He had questioned a few of the townspeople, but they hadn't seen the blonde. He hoped that he was right in thinking that Ray was heading to the next township in search of Fraser. He thought he saw something in the distance and squinted. He breathed a sigh of relief; it was Ray. The slender man was struggling forward in the deep snow, Dief at his side guiding. Frobisher marvelled at the blonde's determination despite his disability. He had made good time, and he was heading in the right direction; Buck suspected that Ben's wolf had something to do with that. He headed the dogs in the direction of the small figure. He drew the sledge up by the side of the slender blonde. "Do you want a lift, young man?" he asked lightly. Ray ignored him. He stumbled falling forwards into the snow. Buck quickly jumped off the sledge reaching down to pick up his friend. "Leave me alone," Ray snapped struggling to his knees. "Don't touch me. I can manage." "Ray," Buck protested pulling his friend to his feet despite his protests. Ray snatched his arm out of Buck's grip making the older Mountie frown. "Ray. You can't do this...," he started to say. "Why? Because I can't see," Ray started to walk forwards again. "Well I don't care. I'm gonna find Ben." He tripped falling into a bank of snow. "You'd do better with a pair of snow shoes," Frobisher noted as he hauled Ray to his feet again. "Never got on with them," Ray snapped. "Not even when I could see." Brushing the snow from his jeans, he started to walk forwards once again. Frobisher ran to catch up with the blonde taking hold of his arm. "Ray I understand how you feel about Ben," he said gently. "Ya don't. No-one does," Ray shouted turning his blind eyes towards the older Mountie. Frobisher found the stare disconcerting and he dropped his head. "He's alive. And he needs me," Ray shook off the Mountie's hand starting to stubbornly walk forwards again, Dief at his side and Chicago gambling playfully around his feet. "I won't give up." Buck sighed in defeat. "Let me help you," he shouted. "I'll come and look for Ben with you." Ray stopped walking and turned, his pale eyes staring at the older man. "Ya will?" he asked hopefully. He dropped his head biting his bottom lip. "But ya ...... ya think he's dead." "But you don't," Buck persuaded. Ray continued to stare in the direction of the older man. He nodded slightly, and let himself be guided back towards the sledge. Buck helped him onto the sledge, covering him with a blanket. Scooping up the husky puppy, he handed him to Ray who cuddled him close to his body. Dief yipped and followed as Buck drove the sledge forward into the white vastness. Buck insisted that they rendevous with the official search team, collecting a radio in order for them to keep in contact. Setting off, they had searched the vastness for two days without success. Frobisher was becoming increasingly worried about his young friend; he hardly ate anything and his sleep was disturbed by dreams that he woke from, screaming out Ben's name. Not wanting his friend to become ill, Buck had reluctantly decided that he was going to try to persuade Ray to head home. Ray sat a little way off from their camp site, staring blindly out into the distance, Dief at his side. Chicago played happily in the snow by his master's side. Buck trudged over to his friend. Sitting down by the thin man, he took a deep breath. "Ray. I think we ought to head home," he said. "We've done our best." Ray continued to stare blindly into the distance. "Maybe yer right," Ray murmured standing up. Buck was surprised at the ease of Ray's agreement. "Ray. The official search team won't give up until they find him," he said. "I know," Ray mumbled. "I'm kinda tired. Gonna turn in." Frobisher watched as Ray headed back towards his tent. Sighing heavily, he made his own way back to the campsite and his tent. ************** Ray lay on his back thinking about Fraser and their life together. He had an ache in his chest that threatened to overwhelm him. He couldn't survive without Fraser. He rolled over onto his side; he couldn't bear to think of his lover lost and alone in the wilderness. "Perhaps he's hurt and wandered off course," he thought. He sat up with a start. "Why didn't I think of that before?" Ray scolded himself carefully unzipping the sleeping bag. He had no intention of going home now. Ray hastily and untidily stuffed his sleeping bag into his rucksack explaining his plan to the wolf. He frowned to himself; Fraser would laugh if he knew he had been talking to the wolf. "I've become unhinged," he muttered crawling out of the tent, Dief and Chicago following him. Ray scooped Chicago up stuffing him down the front of his anorak. "Find Fraser," he whispered to Dief as he grabbed the fur at his neck. The wolf barked softly and headed off, Ray scrabbling to keep up. Ray didn't feel frightened as he followed the wolf knowing that Dief would protect him. He knew the wilderness was a dangerous place; he grinned to himself wryly; how could he be afraid of something he couldn't see. ************** Fraser stared into the distance; all he could see was the snow covered wilderness that was his one true home. He knew, however, that beneath the beauty of the vast whiteness lay a savage and cruel terrain; waiting silently to swallow unsuspecting prey. He shook his head trying to clear the fuzziness, and immediately wished he hadn't as his head pounded in protest. He squeezed his eyes shut trying to block out the pain in his head and his ankle. He had been walking for a few hours supporting himself on a sturdy branch he had managed to cut down with his knife. Fraser groaned as he recalled what had happened. The novice lead dog had been startled by an arctic wolf and in his panic had taken off at a speed pulling the other dogs along with him despite Fraser's cries. The sledge had hit a hidden boulder and he had been thrown off his head hitting another concealed rock. He had woken up alone, the dogs and sledge long gone. His ankle had been giving him some pain, and he had wandered around in a daze for hours. He had come to his senses slightly managing to build a small igloo, collapsing inside unconscious. Fraser didn't know how long he had been unconscious, but on waking he had felt more cold than he had ever felt, and his compass showed that he had wandered miles off his intended course. He knew that they wouldn't be looking for him in this area. He had a few supplies in the small back pack that he had been wearing when he had been thrown off the sledge. Mustering all the strength he had, Fraser had started to limp slowly back towards the townships. His progress was slow as his ankle was becoming more and more painful with each step. He was tired and cold, his energy seemed to be draining from his body. He shook his head again to clear the fuzziness; Fraser knew the disorientation he was feeling was the first sign of hypothermia. He took a step forward and a sharp pain shot up his leg. Dropping his temporary crutch, Fraser cried out in agony pitching forward onto his knees. Resting his head on the snow, he took deep breaths as waves of pain shot through his body. "I can't go on any further," he thought to himself as he lay down in the snow. He squeezed his eyes closed to try to block out the pain. His thoughts turned to Ray, and his heart constricted in pain at the thought of his lover being alone. "Ray. I love you," he shouted loudly into the nothingness. "I love you." He relaxed closing his eyes waiting for the darkness to claim him. "Ray." *************** Dief slowed his pace knowing that his friend was having trouble keeping up. They had been walking for two hours. Ray stumbled along, driven on by his love for Fraser. Dief whined as Ray fell forward onto his knees. Taking a moment to catch his breathe, Ray pulled the wolf close to him stroking his furry head. "We're gonna find him," he whispered into the wolf's ears. He struggled to his feet, checking that Chicago was still snuggled into his anorak. Dief started forwards as Ray put his hand on the wolf's neck. "Come on Dief," Ray encouraged. After another hour, Ray's legs felt like lead; he forced himself to take each step the only thought in his mind being that Fraser needed him. Stopping to rest, Ray straightened up. Pulling off his gloves, he tucked them into his pockets. Chicago whimpered, and Ray pulled him from his anorak placing him carefully on the ground; the puppy happily pranced in the snow. Taking a step forward, his tired legs betrayed him and he sunk into a snow drift. As he fought his way out of the snow, he turned his face up towards the clear sky. "Ben," he shouted as loud as he could. "Ben." He heard his voice echo back to him in the silence. He dropped to his knees trying to choke back tears of defeat and despair. The ache in his chest was unbearable; hugging his body he rocked back and forwards crying. Through his anguished sobs, he thought he heard someone calling his name. He jerked his head up straining his ears. Dief barked and nudged him. "Ya heard it too," he whispered wiping at his tears. Dief barked again. With all the energy he could summon, Ray forced himself to his feet. He grabbed hold of Dief as the wolf started in the direction of the sound. Chicago yelped in protest at being forgotten; he scurried after his master as fast as his small legs could carry him. Man and wolves hurried as fast as they could, Ray's heart pounding in his chest. The voice was getting louder; they were getting close. "Ben," he shouted. "Ray," Fraser responded, his voice sounding weak. "Ray." Dief stopped suddenly nearly tripping up the slender blonde. Ray dropped to his knees; he sensed Fraser was close and stretched his arms outwards in front of him, feeling for the Mountie's body. His hand touched Fraser's gloved one, and it closed around his slender hand weakly. Dragging himself forward, Ray felt for Fraser's face with his other hand. He ran his hand lightly over the Mountie's face touching and stroking gently; panic gripped him - his lover's face was icy cold. "You've lost your gloves again," Fraser murmured his eyes closing. Ray choked back a laugh as he felt his lover's eyelids close. He desperately shook the Mountie. "Ben. Don't go to sleep." He shook him again. "Ben." Ray sat up rummaging in his ruck sack. He pulled out his sleeping bag. "Tired," Fraser mumbled. "Sleep." "No," Ray shouted shaking him again. "Don't ya die on me, damn ya," Ray sobbed wrapping his sleeping bag around his lover. "Not now I've found ya." Climbing on top of Fraser he wrapped his arms tightly around the Mountie. "Please don't leave me." He raised his head up. "Dief go get help. Get Buck." Dief barked in response. Chicago bounded towards Ray licking his face; the blonde pulled the puppy towards him including him in the embrace. ************** Buck Frobisher had arrived an hour later to find the two partners cuddled together. Ray was softly singing trying to keep the Mountie awake. Buck summoned help with his radio; the RCMP Rescue Helicopter arriving twenty minutes later. Buck put his arm around Ray's shoulder in comfort as he watched the paramedics load the Mountie onto a stretcher connecting him up to drips and monitoring equipment. Trying to keep the blonde calm, he quietly explained what was happening. He persuaded the paramedics to let Ray ride in the helicopter with Fraser. Ray smiled gratefully as Buck helped into the craft. He sat holding onto Fraser's hand tightly as the helicopter took off into the evening sky heading towards the hospital. ************** Fraser felt warm as he slowly opened his eyes. He glanced around the dimly lit room momentarily confused. His hazy memory cleared; he was laying propped up in a hospital bed, his left arm connected to an IV. Before he had drifted off to sleep, he remembered the doctors telling him that he had a broken ankle, a mild case of hypothermia and a concussion. He looked down and his heart lurched with love; Ray was clutching his right hand fast asleep, his blonde head pillowed on his arm which rested on the edge of the bed. Fraser frowned; he could see the lines of exhaustion etched on the pale face. He looked around as the door opened. Fraser brought his fingers up to his lips hushing Buck Frobisher as he entered the room, not wanting to wake Ray from his slumber. "So there he is," Buck said. "The medical staff have been looking for him. They want to check him out." "Let him sleep," Fraser pleaded. "He looks like he could do with it." Frobisher perched on the chair by the bed. "You are a lucky man Ben," he muttered pointing at the sleeping figure. "He's one stubborn little bastard. Gave me the slip twice. He wouldn't give up. He knew somehow that you were alive. That you needed him." Fraser smiled. "Yes I do believe that I am very lucky," he agreed. Fraser looked down shyly blushing slightly. "Do you believe in the power of love?" Frobisher screwed his eyes up in thought. "There are many things in this universe I don't understand. Will never understand. Love is a mystery to me, always has been. But I think we should never underestimate its power," he said smiling towards the younger Mountie. "And when it comes knocking on our door, we should embrace it wholeheartedly. What do you think?" "I think I'm glad I found it at last," Fraser grinned back at the older Mountie. "I was ready to die, but I thought I heard him calling me. And I knew he needed me." Frobisher got up patting the Mountie's leg. "You look after yourself young man," he indicated Ray. "And you look after him too." "I will," Fraser promised. "I'll see you both later," Frobisher said as he headed towards the door. ************* After half an hour, Fraser felt his partner stir slightly. "Ray," he whispered. The smaller man opened his eyes slowly. Fraser saw a flash of confusion in the pale eyes, and he squeezed Ray's slender hand in reassurance. "Ben. Are ya OK?," Ray asked standing and moving closer. Fraser noticed that he swayed as he stood up grabbing onto the bed to steady himself. Fraser reached for his lover's hand caressing it tenderly. "Ray," he said a hint of concern in his voice. "I'm good," Ray smiled. "Now yer here with me. Just kinda tired." Ray reached his other hand towards Fraser's face gently running his fingers over the strong features. "I was so frightened I'd.....I'd never see ya again," he murmured tracing his fingers along Fraser's lips. Fraser lightly took Ray's fingers kissing each one in turn. "I'm fine, and I have you to thank for that," Fraser said. "Even though it was foolhardy of you to go out alone." "I wasn't alone," Ray protested. "Dief and Chicago were with me." "Yes I know you did. You must remind me to have a serious word with those two," Fraser teased. Ray flushed guiltily. "I just sorta..... sorta knew ya needed me. I kept seeing ya in my dreams. Ya were calling me." "Thank you," Fraser stroked Ray's face with the back of his hand. "For coming after me. For not giving up." "Suppose Buck is mad at me for giving him the slip," Ray bit his lip. "It's just I couldn't...... couldn't live without ya." "I think he understands," Fraser replied drawing the smaller man closer to him. He kissed him lightly; Ray leaned into the kiss returning it with fervour. "I couldn't live without you either Ray," Fraser murmured as they pulled away from each other. He frowned again studying his partner closely. "You look tired. Why don't you slip up here next me?" he patted the bed. Fraser needed to feel Ray's body close to his; it made him feel safe, secure and loved. "But what if someone....," Ray started to say managing to hide the surprise in his voice at the request from the usually shy and reserved Mountie. Fraser tugged at his arm. "I don't care. I need you. Please," he pleaded shifting sideways. He winced to himself as he jolted his ankle. Ray shrugged climbing carefully onto the bed. Fraser put his arm around the thin shoulders drawing his lover towards his body. Ray lay on his side snuggling close laying one arm across Fraser's chest, his head resting on the Mountie's shoulder. "I'll look after ya when ya get outta here," he muttered sleepily. Fraser kissed the top of his head. "We'll look after each other Ray," he replied. "Like we always do." The Head Nurse came in search of Ray. She smiled to herself as she watched the two men for a moment before leaving them in peace; they were cuddled together fast asleep safe and secure in each other's arms and their love for each other. THE END Love it, hate it, let me know at: [email protected]

A lot of people seem to be extremely upset with Zidane for doing what he did with Materazzi. But wouldn’t we at least want to know a little bit about the verbal exchange? I guess the idea is that no matter what Materazzi said, the physical response was not warranted. Maybe. The whole thing reminds me of the incident at the end of the movie Bend it Like Beckham. On a related note, I always wonder what language players speak when addressing each other in such situations. { 108 comments } Isabel 07.09.06 at 3:40 pm In this case, as I said, a language that was very well understood by Zidane. Judging by the body language (or lack thereof) of Materazzi, and the absence of expression in his face, he reminds me those kids that pinch their siblings so they go in a tantrum and be punished while they keep an angelic face. Filter 07.09.06 at 3:44 pm Zidane speaks Italian. I think Materazzi told him something about Zidane’s arab parents. Isabel 07.09.06 at 3:47 pm The Guardian says that replays swhow that Materazzi tweaked Zidane’s niple. Can we trust the Brits not to joke with such a serious matter??? Cryptic Ned 07.09.06 at 3:47 pm Maybe he said “Headbutt me and convince one of your penalty-kickers to miss, and you will be rewarded handsomely by Signor Berlusconi.” P O'Neill 07.09.06 at 3:48 pm If #2 is right (and I suspect so), it’s going to be an awkward postscript to FIFA’s Say No to Racism campaign. a 07.09.06 at 3:50 pm Sadly I imagine it’s 2 and 5 who are right. Daniel 07.09.06 at 3:51 pm I think it is not entirely impossible that Zidane did it intentionally to get sent off because he didn’t want to be in the penalty shootout; IIRC he wasn’t in the shootout in 1998. Isabel 07.09.06 at 3:55 pm “He was headbutted by Zinedine Zidane in the FIFA World Cup 2006 final after saying something provocative to Zidane.” Wikipedia on Materazzi ;-) They’ve already figured it out! Chris Bertram 07.09.06 at 3:59 pm no matter what Materazzi said, the physical response was not warranted. More like, whatever Materazzi said, violent conduct earns you a red card under the rules of the game. And Zidane knew that. Ray 07.09.06 at 4:06 pm The idea is that no matter what Materazzi said, the physical response was stupid. foolishmortal 07.09.06 at 4:09 pm My real-time opinion was that Zidane judged, correctly, that none of the refs could see him, and as he’s retiring did not care about a ban, but the assistant ref saw the replay on the stadium screen and let the ref know what happened. What a stupid way to end your career. Typical galactico bullshit. Aidan Maconachy 07.09.06 at 4:21 pm Viva Italia! Great control and awesome penalty finishing. They deserved it. It doesn’t matter what Matterazzi said to Zizou. As captain of the team at a World Cup final with only minutes to go, it was inexcusable conduct. Sad end to a great career. Eszter 07.09.06 at 4:22 pm Chris, your – and others’ – comment assumes completely rational action. Depending on what was said, do you think completely rational action can/should be expected? Chris Waigl 07.09.06 at 4:25 pm I’m totally stupefied… and not happy about the effect this is going to have in France. On the other hand, there’s bound to be more to this—Zidane for one may not totally deserve his god-like stature of purity, but he isn’t known at all for displays like that one. I’d have said anyone rather than him, out of the French players. So yeah, I’m waiting for the story to come out, even though whatever it is, of course the red card was deserved. No doubt about it. If it’s the “nipple-twisting”, that would open up interesting cans of worms: sex/sexuality … and would be very disappointing. The only thing I’d find Zidane’s action understandable (not warranted) for is a racist remark. Chris Waigl 07.09.06 at 4:29 pm Oh, and Chris Bertram: I don’t think that the headbutt would have been warranted even for the worst words I could imagine. There are, however, things Materazzi could have said that would Zidane’s action into the “understandable” (if terminally stupid and disappointingly self-centered) box. Randy Paul 07.09.06 at 4:32 pm but he isn’t known at all for displays like that one In 1998, he was suspended for two games for a vicious tackle on a Saudi player that got him a straight red card in the opening round play. Randy Paul 07.09.06 at 4:35 pm Let me correct that: it wasn’t a tackle, it was for all appearances, a deliberate stomping. Chris Bertram 07.09.06 at 4:35 pm Nothing I wrote implied that all action is rational or that what Zidane did would not have been understandable (assuming some provocation). If Materazzi said something racist, then he ought to be punished. There isn’t any actual evidence that he did though. Here’s the Wikipedia entry on sledging, for comparative reference Blue Stranger 07.09.06 at 4:36 pm see the replay here: Dan Kervick 07.09.06 at 4:37 pm But wouldn’t we at least want to know a little bit about the verbal exchange? My guess is that Matterazi said, “Hey Zizou…What’s the first thing you’re going to do after you retire, and can stop acting like a goody two-shoes, elder statesman football god?” a 07.09.06 at 4:39 pm Red card or not it’s disappointing Zidane wasn’t there collecting the runner’s up award at the end. It’s not a time to shut yourself in the locker room. Patrick S. O'Donnell 07.09.06 at 4:41 pm Zidane is in the World Cup Final, he’s the team’s captain and is clearly intelligent, with many years of invaluable experience behind him: such factors should indeed create an expectation that no matter what was said, he should not have lost his cool. It’s simply inexcusable to respond in the manner he did. He might have responded with a clever and cutting remark or simply kept his mouth shut and sublimated (hence positively directed) his anger on behalf of the team. There’s no way to maneuver around an accurate description of what happened coupled with the consequent disappointment…. jhupp 07.09.06 at 4:42 pm For clarity only, Zidane’s parents are Berbers, not Arabs. Of course, Materazzi’s words, were they involved, probably didn’t differentiate as such. About 3/4 of the way through this article there is a stretch about Zidane’s “inner rage,” specifically as it pertains to his family and race. Dan Kervick 07.09.06 at 4:47 pm It could have been almost anything that set him off. But verbal taunting is part of the game, and I imagine the Italians are quite good at it. Zidane had just misdirected a header toward the center of the goal, and may have realized that he had muffed France’s last best chance to win the cup. Surely he knew that a Barthiez/Buffon matchup in PKs wouldn’t favor France. Frustration + game fatigue + long tournament + long carrer = violent outburt. Henry 07.09.06 at 4:51 pm Youtube has it here href=”” rel=”nofollow”>. Looks like a nipple-tweak to me. Blue Stranger 07.09.06 at 4:52 pm I lived in France for a couple years, the immigrants/2nd generation French there have a reputation for not taking any crap. Doug 07.09.06 at 4:56 pm So given the clarity of the contact before Zidane’s head-butt, can FIFA ban Materazzi now, like they did to Germany’s Frings? Or if Materazzi was one of Italy’s PK shooters, how about disallowing his and calling the last game a draw? novakant 07.09.06 at 5:07 pm ban Materazzi? for what? that was at the very most a yellow card Frings was punished for allegedly punching an Argentinian player in the face; he most probably didn’t do it, because the even the player in question didn’t remember having a fist in his face – but that’s another matter Aidan Maconachy 07.09.06 at 5:28 pm Anyone who has played football or rugby knows that there is a psychological component to it. Taunting, insults, tweaks, pinches and punches often go on out of the ref’s line of vision. I watched the replay carefully and it looks more like Materazzi’s hand massaging Zizou’s chest area. I couldn’t make out anything that resembled a pinching or tweaking action. But even if Materazzi called Zizou’s parents “dirty arabs”, or even if more obscene racist taunts were involved … even sexual taunts relating to rumors … there is no way Zizou playing at a game of this importance could lose it to that degree without choosing to do so. If it had been passion of the moment, you would have expected some remorse, distress … but there was none of this. He looked as though he meant to do it and was standing by his action, as he awaited the ref’s call. Question is why? Well his last hurrah was that header that Buffon saved. He knew it was going to penalties. I think it was a cynical decision, a sort of “fuck this” gesture of disgust after all his best efforts had failed to yeild dividends. Yeah I’m sure the taunts stung, as did the physical contact – but come on, Zizou has received death threats before games (the French/Algeria game) and knows all too well the kind of bile players are up against. I can’t believe that this was simply a spontaneous act based entirely on passion. He’s too long in the tooth for that. Bob 07.09.06 at 5:29 pm Materazzi said racist comments to Zidane as provocation. Clayton 07.09.06 at 5:33 pm I’m sceptical about this nipple theory. You’d think that if Zidane’s nipples were pinched so severely that he’d lose control and take someone off of his feet with a retaliatory headbutt, you’d see a reaction to the pinching. Wouldn’t you be surprised or startled by a serious tweaking? I’ve watched the video and when Materazzi’s hand is in the nipple region, there’s no discernible reaction on Zidane’s part. radek 07.09.06 at 5:41 pm I liked how he spit contemptously while waiting for the card Jacob Christensen 07.09.06 at 5:45 pm On a purely lingustic note: In Danish a headbutt is called en skalle (that would translate as something like “a skull”), but in Swedish it is always called en dansk skalle (“a Danish skull”). I have no idea how this type of ethnic insult originally entered vernacular language – although the Danes have repayed the favour in another field of human activity (If you don’t ask, I won’t tell…). Back to the headbutting: At the European Championships back in 1984 there was a famous incident where a French player (Jean Tigana??) headbutted Jesper Olsen after a heated exchange of insults. One of the players also threw the ball after the other. That was an instant classic on Danish television. Maybe the Swedes should begin to talk about franska skaller instead? Ron F 07.09.06 at 5:55 pm Could be a bit of covert nipple-tweaking activity going on when Zidane’s chest is obscured by another player. Or, as someone speculates at YouTube – Materazzi told him that his mother looked like Wayne Rooney who in turn looks like Shrek. Ouch! Dan Kervick 07.09.06 at 5:55 pm After watching the replay, and the Materazzi titty twister, I think the taunting was probably along some variant of classic Mediterranean jocularity: “Zizou, you’re dead sexy! What are you doing after the game.” “Hey you have a nice ass …” “… even nicer than your sister’s” “Probably less hairy though” Dan Kervick 07.09.06 at 5:59 pm On a purely lingustic note: In Danish a headbutt is called en skalle (that would translate as something like “a skull”), but in Swedish it is always called en dansk skalle (“a Danish skull”). Recalling a very famous Danish skull, I hereby move that we henceforth call a headbutt a “Yorick”. foolishmortal 07.09.06 at 6:00 pm Danish skull? Even as an american, to me its a Glasgow (or less frequently, Liverpool) kiss. ob 07.09.06 at 6:02 pm that’s it, dan—I’m head-butting you. Right now. In other news, I’m glad we didn’t take too many back-and-forths before remembering that handy dandy distinction between explaining and justifying. Always useful when working in the world of imperfect rational agents, i.e. agents who do things that cannot be excused, but can be explained. I seem to remember it coming in handy the other year when we wanted to understand the terrorists we’re up against, while not really thinking it is okay to knock down Manhattan. (The inability to understand this distinction was for a while the defining mark of a wing-nut—they’ve since found other ways to manifest their stupidity). Oh, and jacob ch.—great story. Made my day, linguistically speaking. Ron F 07.09.06 at 6:07 pm Jacob – (“a Danish skull”) In the UK you can hear a head butt referred to as a “Glasgow Kiss”, after the Scottish city of that name. Another Damned Medievalist 07.09.06 at 6:11 pm I keep saying … Materazi was reminding Zizou that Berlusconi has a very long reach, and that Zizou had better get off the pitch if he wanted his family to have long and happy lives … It was a drastic attempt to get taken off, after asking for a sub for the shoulder injury didn’t work. Really. Maybe. If Dan Brown were writing it … carnegie 07.09.06 at 6:16 pm A less hilarious way of describing a nipple tweak is “sexual assault”. P O'Neill 07.09.06 at 6:32 pm Playing to form, a John Podhoretz “joke” from the Corner A French player assaulting an Italian player during the finals match. I gather that the incident began when the Italian player said, “You know what? I like Jews.” novakant 07.09.06 at 6:55 pm oh and more hilarity from the Corner: Instead of playing the match and losing, why didn’t France simply surrender the way it always does? jeekers, could it be that the people posting there are simply a bit stupid (and I mean stupid not in the sense of misguided or foolish, but literally i.e. lack of intelligence)? vice 07.09.06 at 7:09 pm please don’t bring up the corner… we yanks have enough trouble getting serious cup discussion without bringing up those a holes… Dan Kervick 07.09.06 at 7:34 pm “A less hilarious way of describing a nipple tweak is “sexual assault”.” I suppose the same is true of a nadstomp. Maybe we should bring Materazzi and Rooney up on charges. ob 07.09.06 at 7:36 pm yeah, I think literal stupidity is the best explanation, for much of the contents of the Cornhole (as the Editors like to call it). Could anyone with two wits to rub together really utter a slur about an entire nation, sc. France, to the effect that it is anti-semitic, without realizing that this is a gross prejudice of exactly the same sort as anti-semitism? “Huh huh, those French—they sure are prejudiced!” I mean, I know that there are pockets of France that have a problem with anti-semitic creeps. Does that make this guy—whose parents are apparently Berber in any case—fair game for charges of anti-semitism? I’m looking forward to the next round in which the Cornhole says that this sort of unsportsmanlike roughness is typically French—then we can delve a bit deeper into the many documented instances in which their boy Bush cheated and fouled and took cheap shots when he was losing at sporting events. There’s a good description of one episode in Susskind’s new book, as well as a good photo of the Loser in Chief fouling someone years ago playing rugby. JakeBCool 07.09.06 at 7:37 pm I’ve heard a head-butt referred to as a ‘Scottish nut’—by a Glaswegian and also by an Englishman. I was surprised that it wasn’t Barthez’s fault, really, at the end; that second kick would have gone in had it been an inch or so lower. If I had a time machine, I might consider transporting every American chickenhawk who makes French surrender jokes to Ypres at certain times in 1915 and 1917. I think it would be very character-building for them. DC 07.09.06 at 7:56 pm I’m sorry to carry on with “the Corner”, but impressed by the sheer witlessness of the above quote I was inspired to visit it for the very first time. This is from the next comment: “I gather that the incident began when the Italian player said, “You know what? I like Jews.” Gosh but that really is stupid, witless stuff, isn’t it? Stupid as in not intelligent, and witless as in lacking any wit. Oh well. blah 07.09.06 at 8:10 pm Anybody else notice how Materazzi flew backward as if he had been shot in the chest point blank with a rifle? Flopping is almost instinctual with those Italians. P O'Neill 07.09.06 at 8:32 pm Yeah the Cornhole this evening was an unfunny version of that Niger Powers line about hating people who are prejudiced against other cultures, and the Dutch. nick s 07.09.06 at 8:49 pm Please, if we wanted to read the scribblings of idiots, we’d either go to the Corner or wait for jet to post. I might consider transporting every American chickenhawk who makes French surrender jokes to Ypres at certain times in 1915 and 1917. I particularly would like to see George Will transported back to the Siege of Paris for cracking that line. tom @whimsley 07.09.06 at 9:15 pm 11. The BBC say the incident wasn’t shown on the stadium screen: ” The replay of Zidane’s attack on Materazzi was not shown on the giant screens inside the stadium, leaving France fans to harbour a misplaced sense of injustice for their hero.” CR 07.09.06 at 9:17 pm Instead of playing the match and losing, why didn’t France simply surrender the way it always does? Well perhaps Derbyshire has a point. After all the US did play up to its recent military precedent: 0 wins, 1 draw (Korea), 2 loses (Vietnam, Iraq). Perhaps I’m calling the Iraq match at the 75th minute, but what the hell. luci 07.09.06 at 9:53 pm Anybody else notice how Materazzi flew backward as if he had been shot in the chest Totally. Announcers regarded it as a “vicious” attack…Well, maybe if he had head-butted Materazzi in the face. I’m sure Materazzi was stunned, but it’s not like a full punch in the chest or the face. Those guys are professional athletes, I wonder why their pride (or conscience) doesn’t bother them when they’re rolling on the turf in “agony” after being tripped. Dan Kervick 07.09.06 at 10:39 pm I don’t know. Materazzi’s fall looks legit to me. If a guy who can head a ball like Zidane gives you a point black head butt to the sternum, its going to knock you on you ass. wbb 07.09.06 at 11:09 pm dan is right. Zidane’s head-butt packed a beautiful punch. He brought some zen to the assault. The fall was one of the few genuine in the tournament. Michael 07.09.06 at 11:27 pm All this academic talk is overwrought overanalysis. Zidane flattened him on his @$$ for a good reason. blah 07.09.06 at 11:28 pm Watch the video again and pay attention to Materazzi’s legs: the both go flying forward and alomst immediately leave the ground. It does not look like a natural fall at all. It looks like Materazzi is jumping into the air. jay 07.09.06 at 11:47 pm I’ve watched the headbutt and the fall a number of times. I’m confident it was real. The natural movement of the legs in that situation (assuming they’re not firmly attached to the ground) should be to move forward as the body moves backwards. There were plenty of dives by the Italian team, but I don’t think was one of them. ~~~~ 07.10.06 at 1:58 am Another rumor is that Materazzi accused Zidane of involvement in the steroid abuse scandal at Zidane’s former club Juventus. (This would also explain Zidane’s early balding.) john h 07.10.06 at 5:07 am #46 – Armchair General here, The Ypres salient was held by British and Empire forces throughout the war. For an equivalent eye-opener, send those Keyboard Kommandos to Verdun instead. yonray 07.10.06 at 6:28 am Outrageous and quite wrong to opine thus but… wasn’t there something rather magnificent in what Zidane did? Kingly, sort of? What, when, why. Something happened – we don’t know what yet – but something he really didn’t like. He runs around for a couple of seconds… then … I don’t have to take this – BAM!! Won’t it ultimately add to his legend, rather than detract from it? Ray 07.10.06 at 7:19 am As much as lifting the World Cup for the second time would have added to his reputation? I don’t think so. ob 07.10.06 at 7:23 am yonray— The model you are looking for is Achilles. The rest of the world is expressing outrage at Zidane because he let down the team. Your reaction is: who cares about the team? His personal honor was affronted, he vindicated himself, and was unrepentant about doing it. Yes, it may have cost his team the World Cup. But better that the Achaeans should be hard-pressed by the Trojans—better even that their ships should be burnt on the beaches—than that Achilles’ own honor should be slighted and Agamemnon pay no penalty for it. Yes, there is something recognizably kingly about it. All you have to do is buy into a value-system that places individual honor far above collective good, and you can see it right away. (There were even Athenians who admired Alcibiades for betraying Athens because he had done it with such studious regard for his own glory, and such manifest disdain for the common good). It’s not my cuppa, but then I’ve always thought Odysseus is by far the better man. Still, I recognize the impulse you’re giving voice to. KB 07.10.06 at 8:17 am Whatever the case, the Zidane head-butt is the best thing that ever happened to C. Ronaldo. The villain of the tournament no longer. Rio 07.10.06 at 10:21 am Estzer, there’s an interesting article over at Slate called “Does Soccer Have a Lingua Franca?” I thought you might be interested. .” jakeb 07.10.06 at 10:29 am General John H—You’re correct that Verdun is a better example. I was thinking only along the lines of examples of brutal battles in which the French took part (as well as all the Allies running away at least briefly in 2nd Ypres). But Verdun is preferable re the particular talking point. Socceroo 07.10.06 at 10:48 am I think Zidane’s shoulder injury should figure as part of the explanation for his foul. He clearly felt as though he had been badly treated by the Italian defense and ignored by the refs. And if he was truly in a great deal of pain, he may have been more vulnerable to poor judgment. Also, the American commentators kept referring to Beckenbauer’s 1970 game against Italy. Perhaps Beckenbauer didn’t have to listen to yapping like that of Materazzi’s. Yesterday was a sad for soccer, that’s for sure. Daniel 07.10.06 at 12:00 pm I think Zidane’s shoulder injury should figure as part of the explanation for his foul yes, it made it more difficult for him to punch. bob 07.10.06 at 12:50 pm Just another reason why this Sport sucks in my opinion… Although I respect the abilities of the players and believe it’s one of the most physically demanding sports, actions like Zidanes makes you think of them as the prima donas they really are. And talk about an anti-climatic ending. You watch for 2 hours a hard fought game decided mostly by arbitrary calls by the refs, and then have a shoot out decide the winner. This set back the acceptance of soccer in the US for at least another 20 years if not forever! Sorry but Soccer is the sports of “Tribes” and will always be another form of war. My Favorite gimmick is having the 2 teams enter the arena side by side with the protection on 9 years olds. Just like the terrorist of the Middle East using women and children for protection from the enemy! Greatest Sport my ass! RickD 07.10.06 at 1:36 pm Several comments: 1) Zidane played for quite some time in Italy. Given the linguistic closeness between French and Italian, I think it’s reasonable to presume he could understand anything said to him in Italian. 2) Zidane does have a small history with the prior red card 3) Materazzi did tweak his nipple while grabbing him. 4) Even before that incident, Zidane had been pushed and grabbed for most of the evening. At one poing he had to leave the field with a non-functioning shoulder. Observers speculated it had been dislocated, but pulled back into place. 5) Clearly Materazzi said something while Zidane was walking away that crossed the line of decent sportsmanship. Materazzi is denying that he called Zidane a terrorist, FWIW. 6) With all that in mind, Zidane’s headbutt was inexcusable, and the red card was appropriate. 7) This is the second time we’ve seen a red card of a leading player possibly as the result of a game full of harrassment. The first was Wayne Rooney in the Portugal game. Both games were refereed by Horacio Elizondo of Argentina. Apparently he has a “let them play” philosophy. Perhaps this matter should be addressed with him privately in an informal manner by FIFA. 8) There is a question as to whether taunting a player to enrage him and get him red carded is good sportsmanship. I think it detracts from the victory in some cases. That was certainly true of the flopsy Portuguese, who were in serious danger of losing to a stronger England side before Rooney was sent off. As for Italy, I think it’s far less certain that France would have scored the first non-penalty, non-own goal against Italy in the last 10 minutes of the game. In any case, what was far more dubious than his trash-talking was Materazzi climing on Patrick Viera, holding him down with his shoulder, while getting into an open position for the header that tied the game at 1. 9) Anybody who thinks Zidane got intentionally sent off to avoid the pressure of a penalty kick is seriously, seriously wrong. 10) No matter how you slice it, if the game went to penalties, with the players on the field, David Trezeguet would have been taking one of the kicks. He missed his shot. 11) Italy was the best team over the course of a tournament. France’s play in the group stage was only sufficient to reach the second round because they played in a particularly weak group. Italy played in one of the two strongest groups and won it fairly convincingly. They beat Germany in Germany, which nobody else could manage. On the whole they are worthy champions. Still, it would have been interesting to see what would have happened without the last-second penalty kick against the Socceroos. Italy did not dominate in the way France and Brazil had in the previous two World Cups. But somebody’s got to win, and Italy was as good a candidate as anybody else. Anderson 07.10.06 at 1:36 pm A French player assaulting an Italian player during the finals match. I gather that the incident began when the Italian player said, “You know what? I like Jews.” Actually, that is pretty funny. Sorry, Francophiles, but your country’s reputation for anti-semitism is an earned one. Ask Alfred Dreyfuss. Ask the Jewish kids you rounded up for the Nazis. Filter 07.10.06 at 2:07 pm Uhm, France didn’t dominate 1998 World Cup. In quarter finals, they needed penalty kicks to get over Italy. In semifinals, Croatia played an excellent match and France won only because of two very unusual shots by Thuram. Oh, and I remember them beating Paraguay at the last minute of overtime. Tyrone Slothrop 07.10.06 at 2:40 pm After all the US did play up to its recent military precedent: 0 wins, 1 draw (Korea), 2 loses (Vietnam, Iraq). You forgot Grenada. They say the competition is weak in CONCACAF, but the games still count, no? Randy Paul 07.10.06 at 3:10 pm Actually, that is pretty funny. Sorry, Francophiles, but your country’s reputation for anti-semitism is an earned one. Ask Alfred Dreyfuss. Ask the Jewish kids you rounded up for the Nazis. Have you ever seen a Lazio game? The only thing missing there is Il Duce himself. Italy, where black players are routinely met with monkey chants, is hardly a bastion of tolerance. Robin 07.10.06 at 3:24 pm Actually, that is pretty funny. Sorry, Francophiles, but your country’s reputation for anti-semitism is an earned one. Ask Alfred Dreyfuss. Ask the Jewish kids you rounded up for the Nazis. Clearly nothing but condemnation is merited by French anti-Semitism and its complicity in the Holocaust. But it’s rather weird to suggest that Italy has some stellar track record. It was the other part of the Axis, remember? Though I guess people don’t these days, as one of the last public interventions by the decent and late Franco Modigliani reminded us. () It is interesting to also recall that Leon Blum, René Mayer, Michel Debré, Laurent Fabius, and Pierre Mendès-France were all Jewish or part Jewish, interesting for such an anomalously anti-Semetic European country. Anderson 07.10.06 at 3:26 pm Italy, where black players are routinely met with monkey chants, is hardly a bastion of tolerance. Which suggests a verbal retort which Z. might have made to good effect, but doesn’t really relate to whether or not France has enough anti-semitism in its past to merit being ragged-on for it. The Italians are probably just sore that they’re one of the few European powers to get its ass handed to it in a colonial war. Anderson 07.10.06 at 3:30 pm Leon Blum Right, the French were just wild about him. Sigh. As before, nothing in the NR comment or my snarky endorsement thereof said anything about Italy’s own racial problems. Or America’s, for that matter. (Though, hey, we have lots of prominent black Americans! I guess that racism thing is over with, then!) novakant 07.10.06 at 3:56 pm Anderson seems to be one those thugs who likes to sing “Ten German Bombers” whenever Germany plays, and why not, after all “their reputation is an earned one” and in his world that “merits being ragged on for it” indefinitely. Randy Paul 07.10.06 at 4:07 pm Anderson, Apparently the people at the Corner don’t know history or don’t know the old saying about glass houses and stones when making that statement regarding Materazzi. As for the state of things, now in France regarding football, if you know of anything taking place in Ligue 1 as odious as what takes place at a Lazio game, please enlighten us. Sam 07.10.06 at 4:13 pm Coincidence that Matterazi’s dad managed Lazio? I don’t think so. It’s just blind, dumb luck that we weren’t treated to the image of bananas flying onto the pitch from the Italian fans. Someone earlier said: “Actually, that is pretty funny. Sorry, Francophiles, but your country’s reputation for anti-semitism is an earned one. Ask Alfred Dreyfuss. Ask the Jewish kids you rounded up for the Nazis.” Perhaps the commenter can identify a nation that doesn’t have a long and proud tradition of anti-semitism. RickD 07.10.06 at 4:32 pm BBC just had on an Italian lip-reader. Apparently Materazzi told Zidane that he wished “an ugly death for you and your family”. BBC also said that Zidane found out yesterday that his mother is seriously ill. I hope all the French bashers are enjoying their feelings of superiority. mpowell 07.10.06 at 5:10 pm #70- Funny thing, soccer is already big in the United States. The only thing preventing the United States from fielding a world champion caliber team at this point is not the popularity of the sport here but our educational system. An international team is filled with top notch players in their early 20s. If you’re European you’re playing for a professional club full time in the most rigorous training environment possible from the age of 15 or 16. In the states you stay in high school and go to a few camps over the summer. Sometimes, they even try to go to college, but that is not as much of a problem anymore. Those extra couple years of experience make a big difference in the height of a player’s peak. By the time the US players have the same level of experience they are going to be older, on average- and players in their late 20s are OLD in the world cup. I think US goalies will probably continue to be better than their teammates. A goalies peak is a lot later in life. otto 07.10.06 at 5:11 pm Good for the BBC! There is no feeling of superiority here nor french bashing. But playing profesional football requires the ability to submit to the worst possible insults without a physical response. Zidane failed a basic requirement of the game. DC 07.10.06 at 6:47 pm Clearly Leon Blum was not popular with everyone in France, partly because he was a (non-religious) Jew. (Also partly because he was a socialist.) But he was popular enough to become prime minister before and after the war. So was another Jew, Pierre Mendes France. I don’t believe the US has yet had the good fortune to elect a Jewish President, nor a socialist one, you antisemitic bastards. blah 07.10.06 at 7:05 pm Personally, I don’t mind seeing a little physical violence in sports, and the headbutt really was pretty mild. Much less dangerous than the elbows and kicks the players recieve throught the game. Of course Zidane’s conduct was wrong, but I do find some of the overreaction amusing. P O'Neill 07.10.06 at 8:16 pm The BBC report (which seems as yet to have no web version) also mentioned a “four letter expletive”, and seemed to imply that it was in Italian. Jacob Christensen 07.10.06 at 10:55 pm I suppose that at least some of you will have seen the latest article in Slate on the issue: Does Zinedine Zidane know how to use his head? (Answer: Yes!). Thanks for the information about Glasgow and Liverpool, by the way. France may have lost the Final but I learned some new expressions. (I suspect that sailors on shore leave are ultimately responsible for the reputation of said cities: Ports used to be unruly places. Denmark has great maritime traditions and that may explain why the Swedish link a particular act of violence with their neighbours). Oh, and following Zidane’s antics, then maybe a beadbutt in the future will be known as a French Kiss. a 07.11.06 at 12:59 am “BBC just had on an Italian lip-reader. Apparently Materazzi told Zidane that he wished “an ugly death for you and your family”. BBC also said that Zidane found out yesterday that his mother is seriously ill.” Funny that! The Brazilians also hired a lip-reader. Only this one said the comment was about his sister being a prostitute. Maybe the insult was the mother of all insults. Or maybe the insult was just a normal one, and Zidane, being the tongue-tied silent type that he is, wasn’t able to mouth a verbal reply. So he resorted to the only method he has at his disposal: violence. Petronius 07.11.06 at 4:12 am The more I look at the video, the more I think it’s not a racial slur and that it was probably something that sounded pretty innocuous to Materazzi (which likely is something pretty bad, but not THAT BAD TO HIM in the context of the usual stuff said on the pitch). My reasoning is that Materazzi seemed to have no idea what was coming to him. He didn’t even flinch when Zidane was just inches from him. If Materazzi had used a racial slur, surely he would have known that it was taboo. You don’t just say these things and look around unconcerned. In any case, this is up there with Tyson’s bite on Holyfield for me. It had less gross-out but more shock value. Saint Fnordius 07.11.06 at 5:26 am If in fact Materazzi had insulted Zidane’s mother, that would explain* Zidane’s reaction as well as Materazzi’s surprise at his reaction. Materazzi isn’t known for being a genuis, and probably didn’t know about Zizou’s mother was actually ill. If he did, then he deserves to be banned from FIFA/UEFA play for a long, long time. *but not justify. Even Zidane didn’t bother constesting the card. He accepted that there wasa price to pay. a 07.11.06 at 6:03 am “If he did, then he deserves to be banned from FIFA/UEFA play for a long, long time.” What an utterly ridiculous idea. A ban on saying “Your mother wears army boots” because the opponent’s mother might be ill? As this thing wears on, it just seems more and more a case of a bunch of sore losers unable to get a grip that they lost. Here is what Materazzi says – since he’s the only one who has bothered to speak publicly, I think we need to accept it until Zidane talks: “J’ai tenu son maillot pendant quelques secondes seulement, il s’est tourné vers moi, il m’a parlé en raillant, il m’a regardé avec super arrogance, de haut en bas: ‘si vraiment tu veux mon maillot, je te le donnerai après’. Je lui ai répondu avec une insulte, c’est vrai”, a raconté Materazzi, selon La Gazzetta dello Sport. Interrogé si l’insulte visait la sœur du joueur français, comme l’ont affirmé certains médias, Marco Materazzi a précisé: “Une insulte de celles qu’on s’entend dire des dizaines de fois et qui nous échappent souvent sur le terrain”. “Ce qui est sûr c’est que je ne l’ai pas traité de terroriste: je ne suis pas cultivé et je ne sais même pas ce que c’est un terroriste islamiste et ma seule terroriste c’est elle…”, a dit la veille Materazzi au journaliste en se tournant vers sa fille de 10 mois, dormant à ses côtés dans l’avion qui a ramené l’équipe italienne à la maison. “Je n’ai certainement pas mis en cause non plus la maman de Zidane, pour moi, la maman est sacrée”, a ajouté le joueur de l’Inter Milan. Just in case you didn’t catch that, Zidane launched the first insult: “If you want my jersey, then I will give it to you afterwards.” And at the end: “I certainly didn’t mention the the mother of Zidane. For me, the mother is sacred.” a 07.11.06 at 6:07 am And by the way, Materazzi lost his mother when he was 14. Perhaps we should ban comments on Crooked Timber from people who were insensitive enough to think that Materazzi would possibly insult someone’s mother? gr 07.11.06 at 7:20 am I don’t understand why anyone would think that Zidane’s offer to give Materazzi his shirt afterwards was a grave insult. What did Materazzi expect after all his nipple tweaking? Perhaps he couldn’t bear to lose a verbal confrontation to that tongue tied savage. By the way, a prominent Italian politician proclaimed today that France lost because their team consists of ‘niggers, muslims, and communists’. Puts things in perspective, I guess. bob 07.11.06 at 7:43 am “#70- Funny thing, soccer is already big in the United States.” Yup that’s pretty funny all right! It’s a “big” snoooze! And what’s even more laughable is blaming the “education system” for the failure of the US in the cup. The US education deserves it share of blame but not for producing these “thin skinned” girlie men, who get so upset at some trash talk, that they take a cheap shot like the French Girl did! I guess we can only hope that they start producing players as smart as the those who play in the NBA. Professional Soccer is the game of Terrorist and the PC crowd. ~~~~ 07.11.06 at 7:52 am 82: BBC just had on an Italian lip-reader. Apparently Materazzi told Zidane that he wished ‘an ugly death for you and your family’. BBC also said that Zidane found out yesterday that his mother is seriously ill. 89: Funny that! The Brazilians also hired a lip-reader. Only this one said the comment was about his sister being a prostitute. According to the lip-reader for The Times, Materazzi called Zidane “the son of a terrorist whore”. (Lip-reading is not a protected profession.) a 07.11.06 at 7:57 am “I don’t understand why anyone would think that Zidane’s offer to give Materazzi his shirt afterwards was a grave insult.” It wasn’t a grave insult. Who said it was? Why would you think anyone said it was? It’s very mild. On the other hand, it’s an insult where replying with another, worse insult is perfectly legitmate. Randy Paul 07.11.06 at 8:49 am Professional Soccer is the game of Terrorist and the PC crowd. [BIG YAWN] conchis 07.11.06 at 12:22 pm #81: New Zealand. abb1 07.11.06 at 12:52 pm New videogame: Robin 07.11.06 at 3:15 pm It’s gets sadder and stupider. From the NYT: Evan 07.12.06 at 2:53 am Go Zizou! He knew what he would get, decided it was worth it, did it, and took the consequences without whining. At last something worth cheering for in this utterly drab and boring world cup. bob 07.12.06 at 8:17 am Yup like I said, it’s the game of Terrorist! “I am utterly disgusted by what I have heard. I praise my son for defending his family’s honour,” she reportedly told friends. “No one should be subjected to such foul insults on or off the football pitch and I don’t care if it was a World Cup Final. I have nothing but contempt for Materazzi.” Sound like his mother is a Terrorist after all! Randy Paul 07.12.06 at 8:39 am Sound like his mother is a Terrorist after all! [EVEN BIGGER YAWN] Filter 07.12.06 at 9:47 am The Mirror reported that she said she wanted to see Materazzi’s virility on a tray. a 07.12.06 at 10:59 am She may get her chance Sep 6, if Materazzi shows to the Euro-qualifying match between Italy and France at the Stade de France. Zidane at least speaking – on the telly tonight. I do wonder what he will say. Sam 07.12.06 at 1:06 pm “Go Zizou! He knew what he would get, decided it was worth it, did it, and took the consequences without whining. At last something worth cheering for in this utterly drab and boring world cup.” I couldn’t possibly agree more. astrid 07.12.06 at 5:04 pm he said that the Italians had vanquished a French team that was comprised of “Negroes, communists and Moslems.” I apologize in name of all non-racist Italian football fans. (by the way, Calderoli is not a member of the right-wing National Alliance Party but of the secessionist party Northern League)

Royal Canadian Mounted Police Public Complaints Commission Rules of Practice (SOR/93-17) Full Document: - HTMLFull Document: Royal Canadian Mounted Police Public Complaints Commission Rules of Practice | - XMLFull Document: Royal Canadian Mounted Police Public Complaints Commission Rules of Practice [41 KB] | - PDFFull Document: Royal Canadian Mounted Police Public Complaints Commission Rules of Practice [204 KB] Regulations are current to 2012-05-14 Royal Canadian Mounted Police Public Complaints Commission Rules of Practice SOR/93-17 ROYAL CANADIAN MOUNTED POLICE ACT Registration 1992-12-31 Rules of Practice and Procedure of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Public Complaints Commission The Royal Canadian Mounted Police Public Complaints Commission, pursuant to paragraph 45.33(b)Footnote * of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act, hereby makes the annexed Rules of Practice and Procedure of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Public Complaints Commission. Return to footnote *R.S., c. 8 (2nd Supp.), s. 16 Ottawa, December 24, 1992 SHORT TITLE 1. These Rules may be cited as the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Public Complaints Commission Rules of Practice. INTERPRETATION - “Act” “Act” means the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act; (Loi) - “Commission” “Commission” means the member or members assigned pursuant to subsection 45.44(1) of the Act; (Commission) - “complainant” “complainant” means any member of the public who makes a complaint pursuant to subsection 45.35(1) of the Act; (plaignant) - “complaint” “complaint” has the same meaning as in subsection 45.35(1) of the Act; (plainte) - “hearing” “hearing” means a hearing to inquire into a complaint instituted pursuant to paragraph 45.42(3)(c) or subsection 45.43(1) of the Act; (audience) - “hearing process officer” “hearing process officer” means any person who is appointed in accordance with subsection 45.31(2) of the Act and who is authorized to act on behalf of the Registrar at a hearing; (agent d’audience) - “interested person” “interested person” means a person who satisfies the Commission that the person has a substantial and direct interest in a complaint before the Commission; (personne intéressée) - “party” “party” has the same meaning as in subsection 45.45(15) of the Act; (partie) - “record” “record” means the whole or any part of any book, document, transcript, paper, card, tape or other thing, in or on which information is written, recorded, stored or reproduced; (pièce) - “Registrar” “Registrar” means any person who is appointed in accordance with subsection 45.31(2) of the Act and who is designated as Registrar by the Commission Chairman. (greffier) APPLICATION 3. These Rules apply in respect of any proceedings with respect to a hearing conducted by the Commission in accordance with section 45.45 of the Act. DISPENSATION OF RULES AND SUBSTITUTION OF PERIODS 4. (1) The Commission may dispense with any of these Rules where the circumstances and considerations of fairness require such dispensation so that the hearing may be conducted informally and expeditiously. (2) The Commission, on its own initiative or on a motion that requests an extension or abridgement of a period in which an act is to be done, may extend or abridge the period where the circumstances and considerations of fairness require the Commission to do so. (3) Where the Commission dispenses with the Rules in accordance with subsection (1) or extends or abridges a period in accordance with subsection (2), the Commission shall inform the parties and interested persons forthwith. FILING OF RECORDS 5. (1) Where a record is to be filed with the Commission in accordance with these Rules or a direction of the Commission, the record may be filed with the Commission if the Commission is in session or with the Registrar by hand delivery, registered mail, courier, telex, facsimile or other means of communication where the necessary facilities for filing in such manner exist. (2) Subject to subsection (3), the day on which a record is filed is the day on which the record is received by the Commission or any person authorized by the Commission to receive records. (3) A record that is received by the Commission after five o’clock in the afternoon of a business day shall be deemed to be filed with the Commission on the next business day, unless the record is filed while the Commission is in session. (4) Any confidential record filed with the Commission shall be marked “Confidential/Confidentiel” and kept separate from the public record. SERVICE OF DOCUMENTS 6. (1) A document, other than a document referred to in section 47.2 of the Act, may be served (a) by hand delivery, mail, courier, telex, facsimile or other means of communication if there are facilities for accepting service in such manner; and (b) where service cannot be made in accordance with paragraph (a), by a notice that (i) sets out the contents of the document to be served and states that the original document is filed with the Commission, and (ii) is published twice within a period of seven days in a daily newspaper circulated in the place of the latest known residence of the person being served. (2) A document may be served (a) on the Commission by leaving a copy of the document with a person who is authorized to accept service on behalf of the Commission; (b) on a person who is not a child by leaving a copy of the document with the person, with the duly authorized counsel acting for the person or with another person who appears to be at least 16 years of age and who (i) resides or is employed at the residence of the person being served, or (ii) is employed at the principal office of the person being served as set out in any document filed during the proceedings; and (c) on a person who is a child, by leaving a copy of the document with (i) the child, if the child is at least 14 years of age, and (ii) the father, the mother or the guardian of the child. (3) Service of any document is effected when the document is received by the Commission or a person referred to in subsection (2), or on the day following the day on which the last notice was published in a daily newspaper, in the case of service referred to in paragraph (1)(b). (4) Where a document is served on a person who may reply to the document within a certain period, the period commences at the time at which service of the document is effected in accordance with subsection (3). (5) Service of a notice of a hearing referred to in subsection 45.45(2) of the Act shall be effected at least 10 days before the day fixed for the hearing. (6) Any document to be served on a person shall set out the name or official title of the person. (7) Proof of service of a document served in accordance with this section shall be made by the person who served the document by filing, forthwith, a declaration under oath or a solemn affirmation with the Commission. - SOR/96-447, s. 1. REQUESTS FOR RECORDS AND INFORMATION 7. (1) A party or interested person may, in writing, request that any other party or interested person produce, forthwith, any of the following: (a) any pertinent record that is in the person’s possession or control; and (b) a full and adequate reply to the request, where the request is for information. (2) A request referred to in subsection (1) shall (a) be addressed to a party or interested person; (b) be delivered or, where the Commission requires that the request be served, served within the period established by the Commission; and (c) be filed in accordance with subsection 5(1) and delivered to the other parties or interested persons. (3) In the case of a request for information, each item of information that is requested shall be numbered consecutively. 8. (1) Subject to subsection (2), a person to whom a request that is referred to in section 7 is delivered or served shall (a) deliver a copy of the record or reply to the other parties or interested persons and file the record or reply in accordance with subsection 5(1); and (b) in the case of a reply to a request for information, provide a full and adequate reply on a separate page for each item of the request. (2) Subject to any period that the Commission may establish, a person who does not comply with subsection (1) shall (a) set out the grounds on which the refusal to comply is based; (b) produce a statement that describes any other information or record that would be of assistance to the party or interested person who made the request; and (c) deliver a copy of the grounds referred to in paragraph (a) and, if applicable, the statement referred to in paragraph (b) to the parties and interested persons and file those copies in accordance with subsection 5(1). (3) A party or interested person who has made a request in accordance with section 7 and who has not received the record or a full and adequate reply may, by motion, request that the Commission order the production of the record or reply. 9. (1) Where a person does not comply with section 8, the person may not put in evidence at a hearing the record that the person did not deliver and file and that is to the person’s advantage unless the Commission is satisfied that there existed sufficient reasons for not complying with the request. (2) Where a party or interested person refuses to deliver and file a record, the person who made the request in accordance with section 7 may, where authorized by the Commission, introduce secondary evidence of the contents of the record. STAY OF PROCEEDINGS 10. Where a party or interested person has not complied with these Rules or any direction issued by the Commission, the Commission may stay the proceedings until the Rules or direction have been complied with or take such other steps as the Commission considers fair and reasonable so that the hearing may be conducted informally and expeditiously. ISSUES TO BE DETERMINED 11. (1) The Commission may, at any time that there is an issue of jurisdiction, practice or procedure that should be decided before the proceedings are continued, determine the issue. (2) At any stage of the proceedings, the Commission may refer any question or issue of law, of jurisdiction or of practice and procedure to the Federal Court for a hearing and determination and the Commission may, pending the determination of the issue, order the whole or part of the proceedings to be stayed. - 2002, c. 8, s. 183. CONFERENCE 12. The Commission may, at any time, direct any party, interested person or the counsel of the party or interested person either to appear before the Commission at a specified time, date and place for a conference or to participate in a teleconference at a specified time and date for the purpose of considering the following issues: (a) the clarification and simplification of contentious issues; (b) the admission of particular facts or of information; (c) the official language in which the hearing will be conducted; (d) the procedure to be followed in connection with requests for records or information; (e) the procedure to be followed during the course of the hearing; (f) the exchange among parties or interested persons of records; and (g) any other matter that may aid in the clarification and simplification of the evidence and the preparation of the final report of the Commission. 13. (1) Any agreements reached in respect of the issues considered in accordance with section 12 shall be recorded (a) in the case of a conference, in the minutes signed by the parties and interested persons attending the session at which the agreements are made and countersigned by the Commission member presiding at that session; and (b) in the case of a teleconference, in minutes signed by the Commission member presiding at the session and the Commission shall deliver a copy of the minutes to the participating parties and interested persons. (2) Where an agreement on an issue referred to in section 12 cannot be reached, the Commission may decide the issue so that the hearing may be conducted informally and expeditiously. (3) The Commission shall deliver copies of any agreement referred to in subsection (1) and of any decision referred to in subsection (2) to the parties and the interested persons. (4) Subject to section 4, an agreement referred to in subsection (1), together with any decision of the Commission pursuant to subsection (2), shall govern the hearing. SUMMONS 14. (1) A party or interested person, on request, may obtain a summons in Form 1 set out in the schedule issued by the Commission and sealed with the Commission’s seal. (2) A summons referred to in subsection (1) shall be completed by the party or interested person on behalf of whom it is issued or the counsel for that party or interested person and shall contain the information required by Form 1. (3) Notwithstanding subsection (2), any party or interested person requiring the attendance of a witness during the hearing may forward the name and address of the proposed witness to the Registrar at least seven days before the witness is required to appear at the hearing, so that the Commission may issue a summons to that witness. 15. A person that has been summoned in accordance with section 14, may, before appearing as a witness or at any other time, by motion request that the person receives payment of the fees and allowances that are payable to witnesses summoned before the Federal Court of Canada. INTERLOCUTORY MOTIONS 16. (1) A party or interested person may bring before the Commission, in writing or orally, any issue that arises during the proceedings. (2) A motion shall contain a clear and concise statement of the facts, the order sought and the grounds therefor. (3) A written motion shall be filed with the Registrar or, during the hearing, with the hearing process officer and shall be served on the parties and the interested persons to the proceedings. (4) A motion may be made orally during the hearing in accordance with the procedure established by the Commission. (5) A motion may be disposed of by the Commission in writing or orally. - SOR/96-447, s. 2(E). INTERVENTION 17. (1) A person who intends to satisfy the Commission that the person has a substantial and direct interest in a complaint shall file with the Commission (a) a motion to intervene that is signed and dated by the person making the motion or by any other person on behalf of that person; and (b) an affidavit as to the facts on which the motion is based. (2) A motion to intervene shall set out (a) the style of cause of the proceedings in which the person filing the motion wishes to intervene; (b) the name and address of the person filing the motion or the person signing the motion on behalf of that person; (c) a concise statement of the matters in the proceedings that affect the person filing the motion; (d) a concise statement of the facts on which the motion is based; and (e) the official language that the person intends to use in the arguments in respect of the motion. (3) The Registrar shall serve, forthwith, a copy of a motion to intervene and the supporting affidavit on each of the parties and interested persons after the documents are filed with the Commission. 18. (1) A party or interested person who has been served with a copy of a motion to intervene and the supporting affidavit may, within fourteen days after the service or within such other period as the Commission may direct, file with the Commission a response to the motion dealing with the matters raised in the motion and stating whether the party or interested person intends to oppose the motion. (2) A copy of the response referred to in subsection (1) shall be served by the person who filed the response on the person making the motion and on all other parties and interested persons. 19. (1) A motion to intervene may be heard at any time, date and place fixed by the Commission, including at the time fixed for a conference or teleconference that is held in accordance with section 12. (2) The Registrar shall serve on the person who filed the motion, the parties and interested persons a notice of the time, date and place at which the motion shall be heard. 20. (1) Where the Commission grants or denies a motion to intervene, the Registrar shall serve on the parties, the interested persons and the person who filed the motion notice thereof. (2) Where a motion to intervene is granted, (a) the Registrar shall serve on the interested person who filed the motion copies of the documents filed by the parties and the other interested persons prior to the granting of the motion; and (b) each party and interested person shall serve on the interested person who has filed the motion, copies of all documents served on the day the motion is granted and thereafter. HEARING IN PRIVATE 21. (1) Where the Commission directs that a hearing or a portion thereof is to be held in private in accordance with subsection 45.45(11) of the Act, the hearing may be attended only by the following persons who complete and file Form 2 set out in the schedule: (a) the parties, interested persons, counsel and authorized representatives of the parties and interested persons; and (b) any other person that the Commission considers should be present. (2) Notwithstanding subsection (1), the required Commission staff, including stenographers and interpreters, may attend a hearing or portion thereof that is held in private. (3) Records with respect to the hearing or portion thereof that is held in private that are filed with the Commission shall be marked “Confidential/Confidentiel” and kept separate from the public record. (4) The Commission may authorize persons who have filed a Form 2 to make copies of the records referred to in subsection (3) and of the transcripts of the hearing or portion thereof that is held in private. (5) Where an expert witness is to testify at a hearing in private, the Commission may authorize, subject to any condition the Commission imposes, confidential information to be made available to that witness. (6) A person referred to in subsection (1) who is present at a hearing in private shall submit the person’s transcripts, notes, and any other records to the Commission at the conclusion of the arguments. GENERAL 22. During normal business hours, the Commission shall make available to the parties and interested persons records filed in the course of the proceedings, other than a hearing in private, and shall permit the persons to make copies thereof. 23. The Commission may, in the interests of justice, adjourn any hearing for such time, date and to such place and on such terms as the Commission considers advisable. 24. No portion of the proceedings is invalid by reason of an irregularity in form or procedure. SCHEDULE FORM 1 (Section 14) SUMMONS TO A WITNESS BEFORE THE RCMP PUBLIC COMPLAINTS COMMISSION STYLE OF CAUSE: NAME OF WITNESS: ADDRESS: You are hereby summoned and required to attend before the RCMP Public Complaints Commission a hearing to be held at in the City of , the day of 19 , at the hour of o’clock in the noon, and so from day to day until the hearing is concluded or the Commission otherwise orders, to give evidence on oath in respect of the hearing and to bring with you and produce at such time and place such records under your control as are relevant to the inquiry into the complaint, including: Dated at this day of , 19 . NOTE: You may request payment of the fees and allowances for your attendance at the hearing as are paid for the attendance of a witness summoned to attend before the Federal Court of Canada. If you fail to attend and give evidence at the hearing, or to produce records specified, at the time and place specified, without lawful excuse, you are liable to a fine of not more than five hundred dollars or to imprisonment of six months or to both. (Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act, R.S., c. R-10, s. 51) FORM 2 (Section 21) STYLE OF CAUSE Declaration and Undertaking I hereby undertake: 1. THAT I will maintain the confidentiality of any information or evidence that I receive during the course of the hearing in private and will not disclose any information or evidence that I receive during the course of that hearing; 2. THAT I will not reproduce in any manner, without the prior written approval of the Commission, any records dealing with the evidence taken and submissions made in the hearing in private; 3. THAT at the end of the hearing, I will return to the Commission all records provided to me by the Commission during the hearing in private, and any notes taken by me with respect to evidence that I received during the course of that hearing in private. DATED AT , , this day of , 19 . - SOR/96-447, s. 3(E).

CONTENTS Days of the Blessed Prophet (s.a.s) in Medina Abu Ayyub al-Ansari: The Flagbearer of the Blessed Prophet (s.a.s) Anas ibn Malik’s Service to the Blessed Prophet (s.a.s) The Pact of Brotherhood between the Muhajirun and the Ansar: Muakhat Virtues of the Muhajirun and the Ansar Madinat’un-Nabi and the Contract of Medina The Declaration of Medina as a Sanctuary The Medina Market and the Regulation of Commercial Life The Masjid’un-Nabi and the Building of the House of the Prophet (s.a.s) Encouraging Communal Salat The First Adhan The Suffa: The School of Knowledge and Wisdom The Blessed Prophet’s (s.a.s) Marriage to the Honorable Aisha The Situation in Medina Permission for Battle: “Fight those who fight you!” Jihad in the way of Allah Some Minor Campaigns THE SECOND YEAR OF HEGIRA The Batn’u Nakhlah Campaign and Others The Changing of the Direction of Qibla Fasting, the Charity of Fitr and Alms Itiqaf The Battle of Badr Major (17 Ramadan 2/ 13 March 624) The Aid of the Angels The Lions of Badr The Return from Badr The Treatment of the Captives The Verdict Regarding the Spoils Martyrdom The Arrival of Zaynab (r.a) in Medina The Jews and the Battle of Banu Qaynuqa (Shawwal, 2/ April, 624) The Conflict of Sawiq (Dhil-hijjah, 2/ May, 624) The Marriage between Ali and Fatimah (r.a) Ahl’ul-Bayt and the Love of Ahl’ul-Bayt Uhud: A Battle Underlain by Wisdom The Companions’ Passion for Martyrdom Hamza the King of All Martyrs Saad ibn Rabi’: The Companion who closed the Door of Excuse The Martyrs of Uhud We Love Uhud and Uhud Loves Us Lessons of Wisdom to be drawn from the Battle of Uhud Hamra’ul-Asad (8 Shawwal, 3 / 24 March 625) The Question of Inheritance THE FOURTH YEAR OF HEGIRA The Raji Incident (Safar, 4 / July, 625) The Maunah Well Incident (Safar, 4 / July, 625) Banu Nadir’s Treacherous Plot The Prohibition of Intoxicants and Gambling Dhat’ur-Riqah The Battle of Badr Minor (Dhilqadah, 4/ April, 626) Salman Farisi’s Acceptance of Islam and His Being Granted Freedom The Abolition of Child Adoption The Command to Cover Up: Hijab The Muraysi Battle (Shaban-Ramadhan, 5 / January-February, 627) Tayammum The Ifk Incident or the Slander They are the Enemy…Beware! An Insufferable Ordeal and A Severe Trial: The Battle of Handak (Shawwal-Dhilqadah, 5/ March, 627) The Glad Tidings Given at Handak Jabir’s Abundant Meal Hardships Endured at Handak Feats of Courage at Handak War is Trickery The March on Banu Qurayza (23 Dhilqadah, 5 / 15 April, 627) The Treaty of Hudaybiyah: The Key to All Victories and the Emotional Road Back to Kaabah The Pledge of Ridvan: A Pledge that Pleased the Almighty The Treaty of Hudaybiyah: A Brand New Phase in the Call A Clear Victory: An Ever Increasing Guidance THE SEVENTH YEAR OF HEGIRA Inviting Kings to Islam The Spell Cast on the Blessed Prophet (s.a.s) by the Jews The Final Blow to Jewish Mischief: The Conquest of Khaybar (Safar-Rabiulawwal, 7 / June-July, 628) Sensitivity towards the Rights of Others The Arrival of Daws in Medina The Return of the Immigrants of Abyssinia The Jews’ Plot to Poison the Blessed Prophet The Mutah Issue The Return from Khaybar Umrat’ul-Qada (Dhilqada, 7 / March, 629) THE EIGHTH YEAR OF HEGIRA The Passing Away of Zaynab, the Daughter of the Blessed Prophet (s.a.s) The Battle of Muta: A Legend Written by a Handful of Companions (Jamaziyalawwal, 8 / August-September, 629) Khalid ibn Walid’s Prowess as Commander The Fath of Mecca: The Truth Has Arrived and Falsehood Perished The Festival of Forgiveness The Meccan Pledge of Allegiance Restore Trusts where they are Due! An Exceptional Loyalty The Battle of Hunayn (11 Shawwal, 8 / 1 February, 630) The Battle of Awtas (Shawwal, 8 / February, 630) The Siege of Taif (Shawwal, 8 / February, 630) The Distribution of the Spoils The Punishment for Killing a Muslim The Assigning of a Governor and a Teacher for Mecca The Sword of Language Ascertain the Truth of the News Brought by the Wicked! The Tabuk Campaign: An Enormous Test of Iman (Rajab, 9 / September-October, 630) Rallying to Donate as-Saat’ul-Usrah: The Time of Difficulty The Martyr of Tabuk The Betrayal of the Hypocrites and Masjid’ud-Dirar From the Minor Jihad to the Major The Repentant Three To Allah Belongs the Treasures of Heaven and Earth No Benefit in being Muslim without Worship Other Events Following Tabuk The Year of Envoys Hajj: The Obligatory Pilgrimage Adiy ibn Hatim’s Acceptance of Islam The Blessed Prophet’s (s.a.s) First and Last Hajj: The Farewell Pilgrimage Today I have Perfected Your Religion Where Wrath Became Manifest THE ELEVENTH YEAR OF HEGIRA Reunion and the Great Farewell: The Sublime Journey to the ‘Highest Companion’ A Grief to Absorb the Whole Universe The Quintessential Example “And We have not sent you but as a mercy to the worlds.” (al-Anbiya, 107) “Certainly a Messenger has come to you from among yourselves; grievous to him is your falling into distress, excessively solicitous respecting you; to the believers (he is) compassionate.” (at-Tawbah, 128) “Say: If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.” (Al-i Imran, 31) “Say: Obey Allah and the Messenger; but if they turn back, then surely Allah does not love the unbelievers.” (Al-i Imran, 32) “Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but he is the Messenger of Allah and the Last of the prophets; and Allah is cognizant of all things.” (al-Ahzab, 40) “And (as for) those who believe and do good, and believe in what has been revealed to Muhammad, and it is the very truth from their Lord, He will remove their evil from them and improve their condition.” (Muhammed, 2) The Messenger of Allah (s.a.s) says: “I will be the first of you to reach the Pool of Kawthar and I will meet you there! Our meeting place is the Pool. I see it at this very moment! I will testify on your behalf! I have been given, at this moment, the treasures of earth and their keys. By Allah, I fear not that you will return to idolatry after me! But I fear that you will get carried away in worldly greed and become jealous of each other, kill one another and perish just like those who have perished before you!” (Bukhari, Janaiz, 73; Muslim, Fadail, 31) “Rest assured that I will go before you and wait for you! Be aware that our meeting spot in the Hereafter is the head of the Pool of Kawthar. Whosoever wishes to meet me tomorrow let him pull his hands and tongue away from sins.” (Bukhari, Salat, 80; Ibn Saad, II, 227) Whatever the World has, it is all but His offering, To Him is obliged society, and so is the individual obliged, Obliged is entire humankind to that Innocent, oh Lord Revive us in the Hereafter with this thought on our mind! Mehmet Akif Ersoy Days of the Blessed Prophet (s.a.s) in Medina The migration of the Prophet (s.a.s) to Medina marked a new era, turning a brand new page in history for Islam and the Muslims. The Noble Prophet (s.a.s) was not a refugee in Medina. Much rather, he was the chief architect of a future world, its guide, the leader of the emerging Islamic state and, in short, its life and soul. With his arrival to Medina, the movement of Islam and its communication to the world received an enormous impetus. Until the completion of the Mosque of Medina, the Masjid’un-Nabi, the Messenger of Allah (s.a.s) remained as guest, for seven months, at the house of Abu Ayyub al-Ansari. But the lodging at the house of Abu Ayyub, the flag bearer of the Prophet (s.a.s) , had in fact a history going back a few centuries. Seven hundred years before, Tubba’ Abu Karib, one of the kings of Yemen, had come to Medina, known then as Yathrib. Finding out from Jewish scholars of the future emergence of a Meccan Prophet who would then migrate to Medina, he had a house built in the town. He then entrusted a gold sealed letter with the grandest scholar in Medina at the time, requesting it be passed on, in case he did not live to see the day, from generation to another, and presented to the coming Prophet.1 And the Tubba’, as early as then, declared belief in the Prophet (s.a.s) and became Muslim.2 Passing on through the years from father to son, the house, which fell to the east of the Masjid, was finally handed down to Abu Ayyub Khalid ibn Zayd (r.a), reputed to be one of the descendants of the said scholar. Those who had the Tubba’s letter in their safekeeping sent Abu Layla, a trustable man from the tribe of Sulaym, with the letter to the Messenger of Allah (s.a.s), upon hearing him approach Medina. Abu Layla tracked the Prophet (s.a.s) on the Meccan road; though it was the Blessed Prophet (s.a.s) who first called out. “Are you Abu Layla?” “Yes”, he replied. “I believe you have the Tubba’s letter with you. Can I see it?” Abu Layla had never before seen the Prophet (s.a.s) . He was stunned. “And who might you be? You certainly do not look like a sorcerer…Yet how did you know I have the letter?” he asked, astounded. “Rest at ease, for I am Muhammad. Please, give me the letter,” he said. Taking out the letter, Abu Layla handed it over to the Blessed Prophet (s.a.s). After Abu Bakr (r.a) read the letter aloud, the Messenger of Allah said, three times: “Greetings to the Tubba, our virtuous brother!” He then advised Abu Layla to return to Medina, who swiftly made his way back, delivering the good news of the Prophet’s (s.a.s) approaching, for which he was offered a treat by each Medinan as a show of appreciation.3 Abu Ayyub al-Ansari: The Flagbearer of the Blessed Prophet (s.a.s) Blessed with the honor of having the greatest of all Prophets (s.a.s) as guest for seven months in his warm double story home, Abu Ayyub (r.a) at first constantly pleaded the Prophet (s.a.s) to stay on the top floor, only to have him respond each time: “Rest assured, Abu Ayyub…The ground floor is better for us and more useful.” Hence, the ground floor was where the Blessed Prophet (s.a.s) initially took up residence. Serving their guest of honor, the Messenger of Allah (s.a.s), with exceptional love and respect, Abu Ayyub (r.a) and his family even would even brush up against the walls to sleep, uncomfortable with the idea of sleeping on the same vertical level with the Noble Prophet (s.a.s). Their jug broke once, spilling all the water on the floor. Worried that the water might drip on their sacred guest, Abu Ayyub at once grabbed their one and only cover, a velvet blanket, and anxiously began drying the floor. Come morning, he insisted the Messenger of Allah (s.a.s) to move upstairs. As much as the Blessed Prophet (s.a.s) assured him that he was comfortable on the ground floor, Abu Ayyub (r.a) politely persisted: “We cannot go upstairs, until you do!” It was only then that they swapped places.4 Whilst they had the Noble Messenger (s.a.s) as guest, Abu Ayyub al-Ansari and his family would offer him from the meals they prepared. When the leftover food was returned, Abu Ayyub would search for the parts of the food which the Messenger of Allah (s.a.s) had touched, specifically eating from those parts for tabarruk, in hope of attaining blessings therefrom. He had once sent the Blessed Prophet (s.a.s) a dish containing onions and garlic, which was returned untouched. Unable to see the Prophet’s (s.a.s) imprints on the food, Abu Ayyub (r.a) apprehensively went next to him and asked: “Is that food impermissible, Messenger of Allah?” “No, it is not”, replied the Prophet of Grace r. “But I was not fond of its smell, for I am a man who speaks with angels.” “If you dislike it, then so do I”, said Abu Ayyub. “But you should eat it”, the Messenger of Allah (s.a.s) advised, however. Nevertheless, that was the last time they cooked that particular meal for the Prophet of Allah (s.a.s).5 How splendid a case in point this serves, in indicating the degree of sensitivity and thoughtfulness the Blessed Prophet (s.a.s) had in abstaining from causing the least amount of discomfort to all beings, humans and angels alike. Abu Ayyub’s (r.a) honor and respect towards the Blessed Prophet (s.a.s) continued unalloyed even after his temporary stay. Just to be among those to reap the inherent blessings of the below words of the Prophet (s.a.s) : “Constantinople will certainly be unlocked…How wonderul a commander is its commander; and how wonderful soldiers those soldiers are”, (Ahmad, IV, 335; Hakim, IV, 468/8300), though well past eighty years of age, Abu Ayyub took part in two sieges of the coveted city, and as a vanguard of the ultimate conquest that was to take place many centuries down the track, gave his life for the cause. Moments before his passing away, as if to nominate his corpse as an object of ambition for Muslim soldiers to claim the city after him, he said, to those standing around: “Bury me at the furthermost point you tread…”6 Anas ibn Malik’s Service to the Blessed Prophet (s.a.s) Anas (r.a) recounts: “As the Messenger of Allah (s.a.s) (s.a.s). (s.a.s) happened in the manner below: When the Noble Messenger (s.a.s) (s.a.s). She asked: “Would you see fit to let Anas serve you, Messenger of Allah?” The Blessed Prophet (s.a.s) gave consent. (Samhudi, I, 271) Anas (r.a) explains: “The Messenger of Allah (s.a.s) (s.a.s), smiling. ‘Did you end up going where I told you to go, little Anas?’ he asked. ‘I am going right away, Messenger of Allah!’ I quickly responded.” (Muslim, Fadail, 54) Anas (r.a) recalls another time: “Once, after having seen to the service of the Messenger of Allah (s.a.s), I went next to the kids outside, thinking he would be taking an afternoon nap. As I got carried away watching the children play, the Messenger of Allah (s.a.s) – t-, later added: “Anas (r.a) old me that ‘If I were to reveal this secret to anyone, it would have been you!’” (Ahmad, III, 195) As can be seen, the Blessed Prophet (s.a.s) treated children like his peers and trusted them with certain secrets. Nurturing a profound love and compassion for them throughout each phase of his life, the Prophet of Mercy (s.a.s) (s.a.s) also offers us guidance with respect to educating children. What superb education he must have given Anas (r.a) hat never in his life did he feel the need to get angry with the child, even once. What a way the fifty-five year old Prophet (s.a.s) must have found to the heart of the ten-year old Anas (r.a) hat he could joke with him, like a pal, when he felt, and let him in on a secret when needed; and reared in the care of the Blessed Prophet (s.a.s) , despite being the child he was, Anas (r.a) could behave like a mature person and take the Messenger of Allah’s secret to the grave. Elevating Anas (r.a) to such a level of maturity, no doubt, was the towering method of education implemented by the Blessed Prophet (s.a.s) . The Pact of Brotherhood between the Muhajirun and the Ansar: Muakhat From the moment he started the Call, irrespective of the race or tribe they belonged to, the Messenger of Allah (s.a.s) regarded all those who entered Islam as equal and instituted among them the brotherhood of Islam. He twice established a muakhat, a pact of brotherhood, the first before the Hegira and the other after. The pact in Mecca involved setting up a brotherhood between the Muslims of Quraysh and the freed slaves. Zayd ibn Harithah and Hamza, for instance, were declared ‘brothers’, just as Salim, the freed slave of Abu Hudayfah and Abu Ubaydah ibn Jarrah, and Bilal Habashi and Ubaydah ibn Harith (r.a) .7 Attached to one another from the very first years of Islam, Muslims showed a second display of brotherhood following the Hegira. The moment the Muhajirun stepped foot inside Medina, a heated battle emerged between the Ansar, who were contesting each other enthusiastically, to host their newly arrived brothers. The sweet dispute unsettled, they were eventually forced to draw lots to decide who would get to host who.8 Five months after the arrival to Medina, the Messenger of Allah (s.a.s) designated for each Muhajir a brother from the Ansar; the venue for the declaration of the pact being the house of Anas ibn Malik t.9 Just to cite a few pairings, Abu Bakr was made a brother with Kharijah ibn Zayd, Omar with Utban ibn Malik, Abu Ubaydah with Saad ibn Muadh, Othman with Aws ibn Thabit,10 Bilal Habashi with Abdullah ibn Abdurrahman,11 Salman with Abu’d-Darda,12 Salim with Muadh ibn Maiz,13 and Ammar with Hudayfah14 (r.a). Taken into consideration in these pairings were the temperamental similarities of both persons. Each immigrant family was boarded in the house of a Medinan. The Companions who were declared brothers were thus to work together and share what they earned. The Ansar donated their excess land to the Blessed Prophet (s.a.s) , who divided them amongst the Muhajirun. Still discontented, the Ansar went so far as to insist the Messenger of Allah (s.a.s) to: “…divide our date fields among our immigrant brothers as well!” “That cannot be”, the Noble Prophet (s.a.s) said, upon which the Ansar then made the following proposal to the Muhajirun: “Then you undertake the work of watering and taking care of the trees and we will split the harvest!” With the approval of the Blessed Prophet (s.a.s) , both sides agreed to the deal. (Bukhari, Harth, 5) This brotherhood was centered around the physical and spiritual assistance of Muslims who had left behind all they had in Mecca and migrated to Medina to start everything from scratch, by the Ansar of Medina welcoming them with open arms; motivated with the aim of making the Muhajirun forget the grief of having been driven out of their hometown only for their belief and of warming them to Medina, their new home, and fusing the Muslims together through a the founding of a mutual solidarity. The pact, stemming purely from the love of iman and established far from pretension, had a far reaching content, extending to cover mutual rights, fairness and assistance, including inheritance.15 ‘Brothers’ were legal guardians and inheritors of one another. Although the pact of brotherhood remained in principle, the clause pertaining to inheritance was later amended by a Revelation subsequent to the Battle of Badr, which restricted inheritance solely to birth rights.16 Ibn Abbas (r.a) explains, in relation to the matter: “Due to the brotherhood founded by the Messenger of Allah, a Muhajir had a right of inheriting the legacy of an Ansari brother, over and above his blood relations. But the ayah:”, (an-Nisa, 33) overruled this practice. With the subsequent part of the ayah: وَالَّذِينَ عَقَدَتْ أَيْمَانُكُمْ فَآتُوهُمْ نَصِيبَهُمْ “…and as to those with whom your rights hands have ratified agreements, give them their portion”, the rights of brotherhood between the Muhajirun and the Ansar became limited to mutual aid, support and good will. Legal inheritance was thereby abolished. But a person could still voluntarily bequeath legacy, provided it did not exceed a third of his wealth.” (Bukhari, Tafsir, 4/7; Abu Dawud, Faraid, 16/2922) The muakhat served to put an end to the ensuing battle between Aws and Khazraj, the local tribes of Medina, and establish a brotherhood that ran deeper than blood. They could hardly wait for morning to arrive, just to see each other. Upon seeing each other, they would enthusiastically ask how they had been, as if they had not seen each other in years. Rarely would three days past before they visited one another. It was a brotherhood that attracted Divine praise, applauded by the Holy Quran.17 The Blessed Prophet (s.a.s) was laying the foundations of a Muslim society and state in Medina. Required first was thus the establishment of a social unity and solidarity, and no better could that be provided than mutual love and assistance. For that reason, the pact of brotherhood instituted by the Prophet of Allah (s.a.s) between the Muhajirun and the Ansar proved to be the most important factor in shaping a society unparalleled in the history of mankind. The Noble Prophet (s.a.s) founded the newly emerging Muslim society on no other basis than the brotherhood of Islam, not on a basis either tribal or racial, or a social categorization between free and slave, rich and poor, and the like. A Muslim society was constructed through blending people of immense social differences together. Virtues of the Muhajirun and the Ansar A muhajir, denoting a person who migrates from one place to another, is the name given specifically to Meccan Muslims, who were forced by the unbearable increase of torment and oppression to leave to Medina. The Muhajirun had left Medina, relinquishing all what they had behind except for the meager amount they could carry. The idolaters had immediately pounced on and seized their possessions in Mecca. The financial loss of the Muslims was indeed huge. But neither did they have their sights set on wealth, nor were they after any worldly gain; they had tasted the sweet zest of faith too much for that. Thus they were more than ready to sacrifice all of what they had in the way of Allah, glory unto Him. They considered an imperative command even the slightest wish of the Blessed Prophet (s.a.s) , constantly ready to be at his disposal, wholeheartedly putting their hands up with the words “may our parents be ransomed for you, Messenger of Allah”, which only echoed their feelings of devotion deep inside. One of the most striking examples of this state of mind is provided by Suhayb ibn Sinan, better known as Suhayb ar-Rumi (r.a), who revealed where he kept his wealth hidden in Mecca, just to get away from the idolaters trying to prevent him from embarking on the Hegira. Having already been on the receiving end of the worst kinds of torment inflicted by the idolaters, Suhayb (r.a) set out to migrate to Medina right after Ali (r.a), only to be thwarted by a group of Meccans who caught up with him on the way. “You arrived in Mecca as a weak and poor man”, they exclaimed. “Yet now have you ended up with loads of wealth. And now you want to take all of what you have and leave? It’s not that easy!” Suhayb immediately dismounted his horse, and taking out some arrows from his case, mounted a challenge: “You very well know that I am one of the most talented bowmen among you. By Allah, if shooting all the arrows I have with me and then using my sword once I run out is what it takes, I will not shrink back…and so long as I have any of these in my hand, you will not be able to get within an inch of me. Only if you are able to seize hold of me once I am completely dispossessed of them, will you be able to do what you want with me. Now, if I tell you where my wealth is and leave you to do with it as you wish, will you clear my path and let me go?” The idolaters accepted the offer. Thereupon Suhayb (r.a) made known to them where his wealth was kept and continued undisturbed on his journey. Around mid Rabiulawwal, he made it to Quba where he was reunited with the Noble Prophet (s.a.s) , accompanied at the time by Abu Bakr and Omar (r.a). In front of them was a bunch of newly picked Umm Jirzan dates brought by Kulthum ibn Khidm. Afflicted with sore eyes and extreme hunger from the journey, Suhayb (r.a) began helping himself to the dates, seeing which Omar (r.a) jokingly remarked: “Look at Suhayb, Messenger of Allah. Having sore eyes does not prevent him from picking out fresh dates!” The Light of Being (s.a.s) joined in. “So you are eating fresh dates even though you have sore eyes?” “I saw the dates”, Suhayb replied, “with the part of my eyes that is not sore!” The Blessed Prophet (s.a.s) responded with a warm smile, and implying how Suhayb ransomed his wealth to the idolaters in return for his life, said: “Suhayb is triumphant…Suhayb is triumphant. Rest assured Suhayb, your trade has turned out profitable!” (Ibn Sad, III, 226-230; Hakim, III, 450, 452) While the Muslims of Mecca were exerting a great sacrifice under the hardest of conditions in trying to relocate to Medina, the Muslims of Medina were embracing them with the love of iman, as appropriate to the intensity of the struggle they were both in. Some Muhajirun, wishing not to be a burden on the Ansar who had not the least qualm in willing to share all they had with their immigrant brothers, appearing more than contended, were not accepting things that were being offered free of charge, while others were only accepting deals where they could work in the date fields of the Ansar thus earn their living with their own hands. Other immigrants had preferred to engage in what they knew best: trade. One of them was Abdurrahman ibn Awf (r.a). Although Saad ibn Rabi (r.a), his made brother, had offered him half his wealth, he refused: “May Allah prosper your wealth and grant your family wellbeing. Suffice for you to show me where the market of Medina is”, he said. Beginning his business venture in this manner, he became wealthy in a very short time. (Bukhari, Manaqib’ul-Ansar, 3) The Muhajirun, the first recipients of Revelation, who winked at all the risks that came with believing in the Messenger of Allah (s.a.s) and as a consequence underwent the most unthinkable forms of torture to the point of ultimately being forced to leave their homes, are honored with the praise of the Allah, glory unto Him. Even though they did not have any worldly gain waiting for them, still, they had abandoned their all, simply for the opportunity to live in line with their religion. Thus not only were the Muhajirun showing an exemplary instance of selflessness, they were at the same time carrying out a religious obligation, for the Quran was condemning those remaining behind from embarking on the Hegira despite having the means.18 Allah, glory unto Him, pledges to forgive the sins of the Muhajirun and award them with Paradise:ِ “Those who have left their homes, or have been driven out therefrom, or have suffered harm in My Cause, or have fought or have been slain,- verily, I will blot out from them their iniquities, and admit them into Gardens with rivers flowing beneath! A reward from the presence of Allah and from His presence is the best of rewards.” (Al-i Imran, 195) ثُمَّ إِنَّ رَبَّكَ لِلَّذِينَ هَاجَرُواْ مِن بَعْدِ مَا فُتِنُواْ ثُمَّ جَاهَدُواْ وَصَبَرُواْ إِنَّ رَبَّكَ مِن بَعْدِهَا لَغَفُورٌ رَّحِيمٌ “But verily to those who leave their homes after trials and persecutions, and who thereafter strive and fight for the faith and patiently persevere… Your Lord, after all this is oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.” (an-Nahl, 110) In connection, the Blessed Prophet (s.a.s) states: “The Muhajirun will enter Paradise seventy years before others and avail of themselves of its blessings…whereas people will be made to wait just to be called into account.” (Haythami, X, 15) Destined for great rewards in the Hereafter, the Muhajirun at the same time have been graced with many Divine blessings in this life, consequent upon the sacrifices they have shown: “To those who leave their homes in the cause of Allah, after suffering oppression…We will assuredly give a goodly home in this world; but truly the reward of the Hereafter will be greater. If only they realized (this)!” (an-Nahl, 41) Again, in consequence of the troubles they suffered, the Almighty reserved for them a greater portion of the spoils compared to others. The Quran, in relation, declares:َ “Some part is due to the poor Muhajirun, those who were expelled from their homes and their property, while seeking Grace from Allah and His Good Pleasure, and aiding Allah and His Messenger. Such are indeed the sincere ones!” (al-Hashr, 8) Over and above the homesickness that took hold of them upon their arrival, the Muhajirun for a long time were also unable to get used to Medina’s weather, struck down by fever and illnesses alike. Witnessing the deteriorating health of both her father Abu Bakr and Bilal Habashi (r.a)-, aggravated all the more by their longing of Mecca, Aisha (r.a) made the Light of Being (s.a.s) aware of the predicament, upon which he then prayed: “Allah…Endear Medina to us just how You endeared Mecca; even more! Grant prosperity to her harvest! Allah…Improve Medina’s weather and send her fever and malaria to Juhfah!”19 (Bukhari, Fadail’ul-Medina, 12; Muslim, Hajj, 480) The gallant Muslims of Medina who welcomed the troubled Muhajirun arriving from Mecca, generously sharing with all their resources, and who moreover gave their affectionate support to the cause of the Noble Prophet (s.a.s) are called Ansar, meaning the Helpers. Ghaylan ibn Jarir (r.a) explains: “I once asked Anas (r.a) , ‘Was the title Ansar used to describe you before, or was it given to you by Allah?’ and he answered, ‘The name was given to us by Allah.’” (Bukhari, Manaqib’ul-Ansar, 1) The Ansar consisted of two rival Medinan tribes of the same kin, Aws and Khazraj. In the 11th year of Prophethood, a delegate of six persons from Khazraj came to Medina to ensure the aid of Quraysh against Aws with whom they had locked horns. There, they met the Messenger of Allah (s.a.s) and his invitation to Islam, as a result of which they became Muslim. On their return to Medina, in hope that it might put an end to the chronic hostilities between them and unite them like the brothers they once were, Khazraj also successfully invited Aws to Islam. Thus the weariness left on their hearts at the end of ensuing warfare waged over long years suddenly turned to unity and strength, thanks to the silm, that is to say the peace and tranquility of Islam. Joining forces once again, the two kindred tribes sent their representatives to Mecca in the 12th and 13th years of Prophethood, occasioning the First and Second Pledges of Aqabah. In the second of these pledges, they made a vow to protect and aid the Messenger of Allah (s.a.s) and the Muslims of Mecca provided they migrated to Medina, playing thereby a major part in Hegira and hence the beginning of a new era in Islam. When designated by the Blessed Prophet (s.a.s) as a brother for each Muhajir, every Ansar made his brother partner to his home, work and property, and whatever he had, revealing an exemplary and incomparable instance of solidarity beyond anything one could dream to expect from his own birth brother. The sincerity of the Ansar is acclaimed by the Quran below: وَالَّذِينَ تَبَوَّؤٌُ “But those who before them, had homes in Medina and had adopted the Faith, who…” (al-Hashr, 9) The following incident, reported to have occasioned the above Revelation, truly captures the depth of Ansari sacrifice: A man reduced with extreme hunger had come to the Messenger of Allah (s.a.s) asking for help. “Who wants to take his brother as guest?” asked the Blessed Prophet (s.a.s) . “I will, Messenger of Allah”, said Abu Talha (r.a) from the Ansar, and took the poor man to his house. Upon arrival, he quickly went inside by himself, and said to his wife, “Let’s prepare something for the guest of the Prophet of Allah”, before asking, “Have we anything to eat?” “No”, replied his wife, “apart from a few morsels enough too feed the kids.” “Then distract the kids. If they come afterwards asking for food, put them to sleep. And once our guest comes inside, put out the light without making it obvious. We will then make it look like as if we’re joining him for the meal.” So they sat for the meal. The guest ate, while they ended up sleeping on an empty stomach. Come morning, Abu Talha went next to the Noble Prophet (s.a.s) , who upon seeing him, said: “Allah was pleased with what you did for your guest last night.” (Bukhari, Tafsir, 59/6; Muslim, Ashribah, 172-173) When the Blessed Prophet (s.a.s) arrived in Medina, the Muhajirun told him: “Never, Messenger of Allah, have we seen a people more generous and charitable than this tribe to whom we have immigrated. Their rich give in loads and their poor provide help, running to our needs. They have entirely taken care of our financial worries and have made us partners to their properties. We fear they might sweep clean all of Allah’s rewards”. “Do not worry”, assured the Prophet of Allah (s.a.s). “So long as you pray to Allah on behalf of them and thank them in return for what they do, you too will obtain rewards.” (Tirmidhi, Qiyamah, 44/2487) Recalling the below incident is Jabir t: ) Another example of altruism shown by the Ansar towards their immigrant brothers runs as thus: The Blessed Prophet (s.a.s) had first summoned the Ansar to distribute among them, in lots, the land of Bahrain. But the Ansar renounced their rights: “Please, Messenger of Allah”, they said “do not give us anything until you give twice as much to our brothers of the Muhajirun!” “Since, Ansar, you prefer others over yourselves”, replied the Messenger of Allah (s.a.s) “then be patient until you unite with me by the Pool of Kawthar…for after me there will come a time when others will be preferred over you!” (Bukhari, Manaqib’ul-Ansar,) The spirit of Ansar has received the personal praise of the Noble Messenger r: “As far as I can see, you grow in number when called to battle or to help the needy, and come in crowds. Yet, when you are called to be given things worldly, you reduce in number and desist.” (Ali al-Muttaqi, XIV, 66) In return for the selflessness with which they embraced the Blessed Prophet (s.a.s) and the Muhajirun who had immigrated to their town, the Ansar are rewarded with Paradise, but more importantly, with the grace of Allah, glory unto Him. Thus states the ay vanguards forever: that is the supreme felicity.” (at-Tawba, 100) The Ansar did not hold back from putting their lives on the line in defending Islam and protecting the Blessed Prophet (s.a.s) . They were gallant in the Battle of Badr. In the Battle of Uhud, during the dire moments in which the Believers were assailed from behind and the tide of victory had turned against them, most of the Companions who formed a human shield around the Blessed Prophet (s.a.s) were Ansari. They were attached to the Prophet of Allah (s.a.s) with legendary love and loyalty, the intensity of which the emotional episode below recounted by Anas (r.a) vividly bears out: “I was on a journey with Jarir ibn Abdullah20. Despite being older than me, he was serving me; and when I told him to stop doing that, he said, ‘I saw the great service lent by the Ansar to the Messenger of Allah, and I promised myself that if I ever became close friends with an Ansari I would serve him.” (Bukhari. Jihad, 71; Muslim, Fadail’us-Sahaba, 181) “Had there never been a Hegira”, once said the Noble Messenger (s.a.s) “I too would have been an Ansari”, expressing their immense value in his sight. (Bukhari, Manaqib’ul-Ansar, 2) Some of the other words articulated by the Blessed Prophet (s.a.s) in acclaim of the virtue of the Ansar include: “Whoever believes in Allah and the Hereafter ought not to be spiteful towards the Ansar.” (Tirmidhi, Manaqib, 25/3906) “Only Believers love them and only hypocrites hate them. Allah loves those who love the Ansar and is spiteful towards those who hate them.” (Tirmidhi, Manaqib, 25/3900) “Humans increase yet the Ansar decrease; and so they will, like salt in a meal.” (Bukhari, Manaqib’ul-Ansar, 11) “I advise you to treat the Ansar nicely. They are my people, confidants and my faithful. They have appropriately fulfilled their obligation. The rewards for their services have not yet been fully given (impending, more than sufficiently, in the Hereafter). Therefore, be nice towards their good, forgive their wrongdoers.” (Bukhari, Manaqib’ul-Ansar, 11) The profound love the Noble Prophet (s.a.s) nurtured for the Muhajirun and the Ansar extended to his entire Companions; such that each Companion sincerely believed that there was nobody dearer to the Messenger of Allah (s.a.s) than himself. Ka’b ibn Ujra (r.a) narrates the evocative incident below: “We were sitting at the Mosque in Medina in the presence of the Messenger of Allah. Seated was a small group each from the Ansar the Muhajirun and the clan of Hashim. Amongst each other, we wondered which one of us the Messenger of Allah loved the most. We, the Ansar, remarked: ‘We believed in the Messenger of Allah, obeyed him and fought by his side against his enemies. So for those reasons, he loves us more!’ Our brothers of the Muhajirun responded: ‘We immigrated for the sake of Allah and His Messenger and turned our backs on our families and wealth in their way. Besides, we took part in all the battles you did. The Messenger of Allah therefore loves us more!’ Members of the Hashim clan then said: ‘We are the Prophet’s kin, who have taken part in all the battles you have. So the Messenger of Allah would certainly have a greater love for us!’ The Messenger of Allah (s.a.s) thereupon came next to us and inquired: ‘What was it that you were talking about amongst each other before?’ Each of us repeated what we said before, to which the Messenger of Allah (s.a.s) commented: ‘You have all spoken the truth…who could claim otherwise?’ Then after a brief pause, he asked, ‘Would you like for me to settle the matter?’ ‘Of course, we would’, replied we. The Messenger of Allah (s.a.s) then stated, ‘You, the Ansar…I am your brother!’ ‘Allah-u Akbar!’ exclaimed the Ansar jubilantly. ‘By the Lord of the Kaabah, we have won him over!’ ‘People of the Muhajirun’, then said the Messenger of Allah (s.a.s). ‘I am from you!’ The Muhajirun, too, happily exclaimed, ‘Allah-u Akbar! ‘By the Lord of the Kaabah, we have won him over!’ ‘As for you, the sons of Hashim’, then continued the Messenger of Allah (s.a.s), ‘You are from me and have come to me!’ They likewise exclaimed: ‘Allah-u Akbar! By the Lord of the Kaabah, we have won him over!’ We all left satisfied. Each group was delighted with the compliments of the Messenger of Allah (s.a.s).” (Haythami, X, 14) The borders of the small Muslim city-state founded in Medina, comprised approximately of four-hundred families, reached Iraq and Palestine, only in a matter of ten years. The Companions were at war with Byzantine and Persia at the time of the passing away of the Noble Messenger (s.a.s), though their standards of living had little changed as compared to ten years before. They continued persisting in their lives of abstinence. Excess consumption, greed, luxury and pomp were things unknown to the Companions, who were filled with a constant awareness, that ‘awaiting the flesh, tomorrow, is but the grave.’ They therefore always fled the tendency of reserving the pleasures of the world to themselves and an indulgence in them. With the excitement and zest of iman, they instead used them as means for guiding humankind to its salvation. They molded their lives in the cast of seeking the pleasure of Allah, glory unto Him. Without a doubt, one of the most prominent reasons for the clear and rapid spread of Islam among the oppressed and the exploited, like a glaring flash of morning light, was the fact that the Companions showed a perfect Muslim character wherever they stepped foot. The elite students of the Blessed Prophet (s.a.s) , the Companions were Believers par excellence, honest and just, carrying treasures of benevolence in their hearts enlightened by the Prophetic light, who looked upon fellow servants of the Almighty only with eyes of compassion. (s.a.s) r. Informed of the situation from beforehand, the Messenger of Allah (s.a.s) (s.a.s) . (s.a.s) proved to be a uniting figure for all the dwellers of Medina. Under these circumstances, the Messenger of Allah (s.a.s) assumed leadership of the town. Having already established brotherhood between Aws and Khazraj and thus the social order amongst Believers through the muakhat, the Blessed Prophet (s.a.s) ,, 1. Muslims of Quraysh and Yathrib (Medina), their dependants and those who struggle with them are an ummah distinct from other communities. 2... 4. The Believers are not to leave those with large families or the indebted to deal with their troubles on their own and will pay their ransom or blood money, within the principles of justice apparent to both sides. 5. Security is to be reinforced within Medina and without. Both inhabitants and foreigners shall feel safe and sound. Excepted are those who oppress or commit a crime. 6.. 7. Neither side is to take idolaters under their wings. Neither Quraysh nor their allies shall be provided refuge in any way whatsoever. 8.. 9. If a disagreement should arise, then the case is to be presented to Allah and His Messenger, whose verdict is to be considered binding. 10. Allah’s pledge and assurance are on equal par and they cover even the most despised; for Muslims are distinct from others in being comrades and companions of each other. 11. No Jew is to embark on a military expedition without the consent of Muhammad r. (s.a.s) (s.a.s) . Had the Jews not violated the Contract of their own doing, it would have continued to hold sway for a while to come. The Declaration of Medina as a Sanctuary The Contract was followed by determining the borders of the Haram, or the sanctuary, of Medina, in the following words of the Noble Prophet (s.a.s) : “Ibrahim u had declared Mecca a haram, and so do I declare between the two hilltops of Medina haram.” (Ahmad, IV, 141) By erecting stones in the prescribed hilltops, the borders of the sanctuary of Medina were thus established. Medina, as determined between these borders, was thereafter the called al-Haram’ur-Rasul, the Sanctuary of the Prophet (s.a.s) . Each corner of the three farsah area between the hills of Ayr and Sawr was made into a grove.21 (Bukhari, Fadail’ul-Medina, 1; Muslim, Hajj, 471-472) After proclaiming Medina a sanctuary, the Messenger of Allah (s.a.s) then added: “Neither shall a tree be cut down, nor a sin committed within these borders. Whoever commits a deed contrary to the Book and Sunnah shall incur the curse of Allah, the angels and the entire humankind.” (Bukhari, Fadail’ul-Medina, 1) Lifting his hands aloft, the Messenger of Allah (s.a.s) then prayed for the wellbeing of the town, owing to the grace of which Medina has since been a haven of peace, serenity and mercy for entire Believers and a town of happiness, effectively the pulse of the Muslim world. The Companions considerately observed the distinct status of Medina throughout, as verified by the sensitivity of Abu Hurayra (r.a) below: “If I saw a deer grazing by the pastures of Medina, there is no way I would disturb it, for I heard the Messenger of Allah declare the area between the stony places of Medina a sanctuary.” (Muslim, Hajj, 471) Not only that, the Companions would not even tolerate their children behaving in a manner inappropriate to the essence of Medina, as vividly recounted by Abdullah ibn Ubada (r.a): “I was once hunting birds near the Abu Ihab Well. My father saw me and immediately made me release the bird I had caught, saying, ‘the Messenger of Allah (s.a.s) has declared the area between the stony spots of Medina a sanctuary, just as Ibrahim u had declared Mecca.’” (Ibn Asir, Usdu’l-Ghaba, III, 159) The Medina Market and the Regulation of Commercial Life Upon arriving in Medina, the Blessed Prophet (s.a.s) pointed to a different market place than that of the Jews, and insisted Muslims do their business there. It is a well known fact, after all, that separate market places are vital for acquiring commercial independence. The Noble Messenger (s.a.s) took close interest in the market and commercial life of Medina, inspecting both the goods and merchants. One day, he went next to a merchant by the market. Dipping his hands into the pile of wheat on the counter, he felt some moistness underneath, and inquired the reason. “It was from the rain, Messenger of Allah”, explained the merchant. “Could not have you put the moist part above where everybody could see?” counseled the Blessed Prophet (s.a.s) , adding “A cheater has nothing to do with me!”

Uranium Antitrust Litigation CRA Limited (now known as Rio Tinto) Corporate Counsel, Rohan George Skea, was one of the key lawyers on CRA’s Australian legal defense team, comprising Sir Roderick Carnegie, Executive Chairman of CRA, other CRA in-house counsel, Australian lawyers, Arthur Robinson & Co, and CRA’s US Counsel, Robert Osgood of Sullivan & Cromwell in New York, involved in the application of the Australian Government’s international antitrust “blocking” and “claw-back” legislation. The blocking and claw-back statutes were enacted by Prime Minister Malcolm Fraser’s Australian Government in response to the USD7.5 billion antitrust treble damages claim launched in 1976 by Westinghouse Electric Corporation (“Westinghouse”) against 29 foreign and US domestic uranium producers. Westinghouse alleged those producers were co-conspirators in an international cartel controlling the supply and price of uranium. The CRA defense team, including Rohan George Skea, worked together with the Australian Government, the Australian Attorney-General’s Department and other agencies in relation to the application and implementation of policy and legislative responses of the Australian Government in relation to the attempts by US Courts, with the support of the United States Government, to extraterritorially apply United States antitrust laws to the alleged activities of CRA, Rio Tinto (UK) and other Australian and foreign corporations. The Westinghouse Uranium Antitrust case was for nearly 10 years the most significant foreign relations problem between the United States Government and the Governments of the United Kingdom, Australia, Canada and South Africa. Westinghouse alleged that the Uranium Producers’ Cartel comprised the major suppliers of uranium. The companies allegedly involved represented some of the world’s largest resource companies, together with the world’s major uranium suppliers. The alleged members, being defendants in the case, were, Rio Algom Limited, Rio Algom Corporation, Rio Tinto Zinc Corporation Limited, RTZ Services Limited, Rio Tinto Zinc Corporation, Conzinc Rio Tinto of Australia Limited (“CRA”),. Because of the strategic and defense interests of the nations involved in the uranium supply industry , the commercial dispute between Westinghouse and the alleged members of the Uranium Producers’ Cartel inevitably and quickly became elevated into a serious clash between the governments of the companies involved .The case also escalated into a bitter and hard fought legal fight between the United States and the claimed extraterritorial application of its domestic antitrust laws, and the sovereign rights of each of the other governments involved to make and enforce laws within their respective territorial jurisdictions. The international legal controversy at the core of the jurisdictional dispute was not new, as the clash between the claimed extraterritorial application of US antitrust laws and the international legal principles of comity has had a long jurisprudential history. The Westinghouse fight, while conducted within the polite “language” of international diplomacy, represented a serious rupture in the otherwise long-standing cooperation on international legal issues among allies and friendly governments, and caused inquiry and policy soul searching on all sides of the debate long after the Westinghouse case was settled in 1982. The settlement decision was facilitated by the election of Ronald Reagan as President in late 1980. President Reagan needed the producers on board to gain privileged access into the Japanese market. It has been asserted that access to the Japanese market was also a long-standing goal of the Australian Government. Following the Westinghouse settlement, CRA developed close links with the Reagan Administration in relation to its proposed major foreign investment initiatives in respect to special steel production in the United States. These initiatives were quickly launched by CRA following the settlement with Westinghouse. Mr Skea was a one of the key executives in CRA’s US business development team and was deeply involved in the confidential discussions in Washington and California with the Reagan Administration’s White House executive team. Those discussions involved the negotiation of Federal and California State tax relief and the government support package to support CRA’s proposed massive investment in leading edge US steel technologies and manufacture at the mothballed Kaiser Steel plant at Fontana in California. In addition, CRA’s negotiating team, led by Ira Davidson (former executive vice-president of Kaiser Aluminum and Chemical Corporation) and Rohan Skea, developed extensive US political connections and support to secure CRA’s entry into main stream steel manufacture in the United States by regular contact and meetings in Washington with key Senators and Congressman on Senate and Congressional Committees dealing with foreign investment, taxation, industry and labor relations, and with the California Governor’s office (under Governor Jerry Brown and later under Governor George Deukmejian) and State legislature representatives. Davidson and Skea, received powerful support in building US political and business links from CRA’s US lawyers, O’Melveny & Myers, who were engaged in relation to CRA’s US steel technology and manufacturing investment. Rohan Skea worked closely with the O’Melveny & Myers legal team led by Chairman, Warren Christopher and senior partner, Charles Bakaly Jr. In particular, Warren Christopher’s Washington connections were impeccable. Christopher had been the Deputy Secretary of State under President Jimmy Carter and was widely acknowledged as the person responsible for successfully negotiating the release of 52 U.S. diplomats who were held hostage in Iran for 444 days from November 4, 1979 to January 20, 1981, after a group of Islamist student radicals loyal to Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini took over the American embassy in Tehran. It has been suggested by some former hostages that one of those student radicals was Mahmud Ahmadinejad, now the President of the Islamic Republic of Iran, and who is currently locked in a serious international controversy with President George W Bush and International Atomic Energy Agency director Mohamed ElBaradei over Iran’s uranium enrichment program and the threat of an Iranian nuclear weapon . President Ahmadinejad has denied his involvement in the taking of the hostages. The student radicals, named Muslim Student Followers of the Imam’s Line, demanded the return and trial of Mohammad Reza Pahlavi, the Shah of Iran, who had been permitted to enter the US for medical treatment following intervention on the Shah’s behalf by influential figures including former United States Secretary of State Henry Kissinger and Council on Foreign Relations chairman David Rockefeller, The hostages’ ordeal transfixed the world and reached a climax when after initial failed attempts to negotiate a release, President Carter ordered the United States military to attempt a rescue operation, Operation Eagle Claw, on April 24, 1980, which resulted in an aborted mission, the crash of two aircraft and the deaths of eight American military men. Following Christopher’s lengthy and skilled negotiations. Christopher. In addition, Christopher went on to be appointed by President Bill Clinton as the 63rd Secretary of State on January 20, 1993, and served until 1997. Christopher negotiated an end to the bloody war in Bosnia and Herzegovina and Serbia, through the Dayton Peace Agreement. He also negotiated a peaceful resolution to the military takeover in Haiti, and restored the democratically elected president Jean-Bertrand Aristide. In the space of several years, CRA, assisted by the efforts of its US business development team, led by Davidson and Skea, and Warren Christopher’s team from O’Melveny & Myers, turned CRA’s reputation around from an alleged antitrust violator, as claimed by Westinghouse, and being unable to transact business in the United States because of proceedings in the Westinghouse case, to a significant and welcome foreign investor with powerful links in the political elite in the US ranging from the Reagan White House Administration, to both sides of politics in the US Senate and Congress, through to the California Governor’s mansion. As a direct result of these high level and confidential activities, CRA negotiated access to generous Federal and State tax and other incentives supporting its proposed US investments. At the height of the Westinghouse battle, when CRA executives could not travel to the US for fear of arrest and imprisonment, such a privileged and influential position in the US was barely imaginable. While the Westinghouse case was settled, the issues revolving around international comity and the extraterritorial application of United States antitrust and trade laws, and the enforcement of antitrust judgments in foreign countries, are far from settled and the potential for serious controversy remains between the United States and the governments of foreign countries over these issues. In the period since 1982, the United States Government, and governments of various other countries, have been steadily introducing legislation which has the potential to underscore a major fall out between Western governments over the extraterritorial application of United States antitrust and trade laws. The Westinghouse case procedures triggered the first legislative responses in Australia to the extraterritorial application of United States antitrust laws in the form of blocking legislation. The Westinghouse Uranium Antitrust case was itself a response by Westinghouse to various suits launched against it by US energy utilities for breach by Westinghouse of uranium supply contracts entered into by Westinghouse as part of its sales of US nuclear power plants. Westinghouse’s defense to those suits was the commercial impossibility or impracticability of its obligations under the uranium supply agreements due to the alleged price and supply fixing arrangements among the members of the Uranium Producers’ Cartel . Westinghouse alleged the conspiratorial activities of the members of the Uranium Producers’ Cartel had restricted the supply of world uranium, and had so increased the price of that uranium, that Westinghouse was unable to supply the uranium without suffering a massive loss. The cost to American consumers if those increases were passed on was estimated in the billions of dollars. The Uranium Antitrust Case centered on the alleged actions of the members of the cartel in limiting and allocating the production and sale of uranium outside the US. The Westinghouse case proceeded under the Sherman Act which applies to anti-competitive activities in trade or commerce within the United States and with foreign nations. Unlike other countries competition laws, the extraterritorial application of US antitrust laws is potentially very wide. The US approach is that where there are direct, substantial and foreseeable “effects” upon the US market, and that it is “reasonable” to exercise jurisdiction, the party concerned is subject to US antitrust laws. For that purpose, it does not matter where that party is incorporated or where the offending conduct took place. An important feature of US antitrust laws is that enforcement can be initiated by Government agencies and by private parties .Public enforcement can be by criminal or civil proceedings by either the US Attorney-General , or the Federal Trade Commission . However, in private proceedings the plaintiff is entitled to seek treble damages for the damages or losses incurred as a consequence of the alleged antitrust behavior of defendants. In addition, plaintiffs are entitled to injunctive relief for any threatened damage likely to be caused by a defendant’s anti-competitive conduct. The combination of the threat of treble damages, and extensive injunctive relief available to US plaintiffs under US laws has proven a powerful weapon against domestic and foreign anti-competitive conduct. In the face of massive losses in its breach of contract disputes with the US nuclear energy utilities, Westinghouse commenced a treble damages suit against the members of the Uranium Producers’ Cartel and applied for various forms of injunctive relief. In addition, the US Justice Department initiated an official investigation into the activities of the alleged cartel, and empanelled a Grand Jury to determine whether criminal sanctions applied. Both Westinghouse and the Justice Department made document discovery and witness deposition requests against all the defendants in the cartel. These interlocutory requests, if enforced, had the potential to apply to millions of documents in the possession of the defendant corporations and would have involved corporations and individual witnesses becoming subject to in personam jurisdiction in the US. As part of the process of enforcing its right to discovery of documents and taking of evidence, Westinghouse issued letters rogatory to the Supreme Court of New South Wales seeking the Court to enforce its discovery and deposition requests. Similar letters rogatory were addressed to the Supreme Court of Ontario and the High Court of Justice in England. A number of defendants, including the Australian defendants, refused to appear in the US courts to defend the proceedings. The defaulting defendants comprised four Australian companies: Conzinc Rio Tinto of Australia Ltd (“CRA”), Mary Kathleen Uranium Ltd, Pancontinental Mining Ltd and Queensland Mines Ltd; two British companies: Rio Tinto Corp. Ltd. (“RTZ”) and RTZ Services Ltd.; two South African companies: Nuclear Fuels Corporation of South Africa and Anglo American Corporation of South Africa Ltd.; and one Canadian corporation, Rio Algom Ltd. In effect, the RTZ Group, comprising RTZ, RTZ Services, CRA, Mary Kathleen and Rio Algom, refused to appear in US Courts and acknowledge the extraterritorial jurisdiction of US antitrust laws. In addition, the defaulting Australian defendants banned their executives from traveling to the US, refused the document discovery requests, and refused to submit themselves or their executives to in personam jurisdiction. Accordingly, the battle lines were drawn between Westinghouse and the defendants who had defaulted in appearance and the issues were quickly elevated to an international judicial and policy stand-off between the United States, Australia, the United Kingdom, Canada and South Africa. The international stand-off produced both civil and governmental responses. Westinghouse swiftly retaliated against the defaulters and successfully obtained interlocutory orders in the US against the defaulting defendants which severely constrained the ability of those companies to conduct business in the US and with US companies. These orders placed the flow of funds into and out of the US based entities, and the disposal of assets, under the control of US courts. Some of the defaulting defendants continued to flagrantly ignore those orders and attempted to transfer funds out of the US resulting in further orders being successfully sought by Westinghouse. These orders were very stringent. For example, Westinghouse successfully enjoined RTZ subsidiary, Rio Algom Limited from making withdrawals from bank accounts of Rio Algom Corporation. The foreign governmental responses were equally swift, and were devastating to Westinghouse’s ability to conduct its case and, ultimately, prevented the enforcement of the interlocutory proceedings in several key countries and threatened to prevent enforcement of any final judgment in those countries. Australia reacted quickly to the initial Westinghouse proceedings, and the issue of letters rogatory seeking document discovery and evidence from the four Australian defendants, and enacted the Foreign Proceedings (Prohibition of Certain Evidence) Act 1976 (Cth) (“FPA”). The FPA prohibited the production of documents or the giving of evidence in foreign proceedings where a foreign court had failed to comply with international law or comity, or where it was considered necessary to protect national interests. The Orders made under the FPA thwarted Westinghouse’s attempts to gain production of documents in Australia or the giving of evidence by executives of the four Australian defendants . However, the passage of the FPA and the Orders were controversial and resulted in an unsuccessful High Court challenge. Although the FPA was a significant step, it was not sufficient to stop Westinghouse. Westinghouse obtained default judgments and injunctions against the defaulting defendants. To block the enforcement of those judgments and injunctions the Australian Government quickly enacted the Foreign Antitrust Judgments (Restriction of Enforcement) Act 1979 (Cth) (“FAJA”). The FAJA empowered the Australian Attorney-General to order certain foreign antitrust judgments to be unenforceable in Australia if the Attorney-General was satisfied that the foreign court had exercised jurisdiction in a manner inconsistent with international law or comity, or if the judgment may be detrimental, or adversely affect, Australian trade or commerce, or if it was in the Australian national interest. In addition, the FAJA enabled the Attorney-General to declare, in the case of judgments involving a specified sum of money that, for the purposes of enforcement, the amount of a judgment could be reduced to a specified amount. This meant that the Attorney-General could allow an antitrust judgment to be enforceable but exclude the treble damages element from enforcement. The Australian Attorney-General subsequently made an Order under the FAJA declaring that the judgment on the issues of liability given in favor of Westinghouse against the nine defaulting defendants, together with the interlocutory injunctions in favor of Westinghouse, would not be recognized or enforceable in Australia. The Australian Government sought to justify its “blocking” policy and legislation on several grounds. As a matter of national interest, the extraterritorial application of US antitrust laws directly conflicted with Australia’s policy for the development and marketing of Australian sourced uranium. It also conflicted with international marketing arrangements supported by the Australian and other non-US governments for the orderly marketing and sale of uranium. However, the support of the Australian and other foreign governments did not amount to “sovereign compulsion” under US law which meant that the defense of “foreign sovereign compulsion” was unavailable to the foreign defendants. Further, even if that defense did apply it would not necessarily prevent the application of in persona jurisdiction. All of the nine defaulting defendants were determined to avoid coming within US jurisdiction. The Australian Government was also seriously concerned with the potentially devastating consequences for the Australian economy if the USD7.5 billion damages claim was enforced against the Australian defendants. This was a real and legitimate issue. The Australian defendants were all major resource companies and directly and indirectly had a profoundly significant place in the Australian economy. Further, the Australian Government was also concerned that US courts had not given sufficient weight in the balancing of interests required under international comity before the extraterritorial application of US antitrust laws was ordered. The Australian and other foreign blocking and claw-back legislation forced Westinghouse and all the defendants to entertain a compromise and commercial settlement. The settlement details were not left to the commercial parties but involved the closest support, guidance and approval of the foreign governments at the highest levels. The confidential discussions among the parties to the case, and the side discussions, consultations and ultimate approvals sought and obtained from the foreign governments were tortuous, lengthy and at times stretched relationships to breaking point. Neither side was a willing participant in the settlement, but pragmatism prevailed. Nonetheless, Westinghouse obtained a workable outcome, but vastly short of its claim. On the other hand, the defendants, were required to pay Westinghouse a not insignificant sum, rumored to be USD100 million, and some of the defendants agreed to supply Westinghouse uranium on favorable terms. Additionally, the defendants were relieved of costly inhibitions to trading in the US and with US corporations. As for the foreign governments, the sobering lesson was that international government “sponsored” collusion against the interests of US corporations and consumers, which did not extend to OPEC style governmental “Acts of State” and thereby gaining immunity from prosecution , was ultimately unsuccessful and threatened their very relationships with the US across all levels. Australia recognized the dangers of any future conflict between the Australian national interest and the extraterritorial application of US antitrust laws and resorted post-Westinghouse to diplomatic initiatives to address some of the disputed jurisdictional dispute issues. Australia commenced a process of negotiation with the US and after several years concluded the Agreement between the Government of Australia and the Government of the United States of America Relating to Cooperation on Antitrust Matters. The Antitrust Cooperation Agreement instituted a notification procedure between Australia and the United States with the intention being to avoid conflicts between the two countries and their “..laws, policies and national interests and for the purpose to give due regard to each other’s sovereignty and to considerations of comity”. Under the Antitrust Cooperation Agreement each country has notification rights. Australia may notify the US of Australian governmental policies that may have antitrust implications in the US. The US is to notify Australia if the Department of Justice or the Federal Trade Commission “…Undertake[s] an antitrust investigation that may have implications for Australian laws, policies or national interests” . In addition, following notification, either country may request consultation if the other country’s antitrust policies adversely affect the requesting country. However, notification and consultation does not necessarily mean or guarantee a resolution of any future conflict. To date, the record of intergovernmental agreement on extraterritorial antitrust issues is not encouraging. Further, the problem of private extraterritorial enforcement of US antitrust laws,being the very problem at the core of the Westinghouse case, remains without a firm resolution, even with the advent of the Antitrust Cooperation Agreement. The Antitrust Cooperation Agreement has a number of important limitations. Article 6 of that Agreement provides that the Australian Government may request the US Government to participate in private antitrust proceedings where the proceedings relate to conduct, or conduct pursuant to a policy of the Government of Australia, that has been the subject of notification and consultation between the Governments under the Agreement. In those cases, the US Government is required to report to the court on the substance and outcome of the inter-governmental consultations. While this approach is an improvement on the situation that applied during the Westinghouse proceedings, it is by no means a resolution of the jurisdictional issues which plagued that case and caused the strained relations between Australia, other foreign governments, and the United States. The Antitrust Cooperation Agreement is quite limited in the case of private prosecution of US antitrust laws. The Agreement simply excludes private prosecutions which have not involved conduct that has been the subject of inter-governmental consultations. In simple terms, this means the Agreement will not apply to a repetition of the very circumstances which gave rise to the Westinghouse case. The Uranium Producers’ Cartel was formed in secret with the support and encouragement of respective foreign governments, and with deliberate non-disclosure to the US Government, in order to achieve certain commercial and strategic advantages. Whether the strategy was ever directed specifically at Westinghouse or against US commercial interests has been the subject of much speculation .That it had that effect is undeniable. It is unlikely that such a conspiracy, if ever repeated, would be disclosed under the Antitrust Cooperation Agreement as any such disclosure would be antithetical to the nature and object of such a conspiracy. Accordingly, the effect of the Westinghouse case and the Antitrust Cooperation Agreement is that there is little incentive for the Australian or any other foreign government to engage in or encourage similar cartel behavior in the future. To that extent, the Westinghouse case and the Antitrust Cooperation Agreement has, for practical purposes, put a stop to any such blatant cartel behavior or, at the very least, ought to cause any party contemplating such behavior to give serious consideration to alternatives given the consequences which will likely follow .In addition, the Agreement effectively only applies to conduct that has been encouraged or mandated by Australian Government policy. This means the Agreement excludes parties whose conduct does not fall within that imprecise ambit. The precise boundary of that ambit may not always be clear as was demonstrated in the Westinghouse case . Australia continued to develop its legislative response to the Westinghouse case and the threat of future private extraterritorial enforcement of US antitrust laws by repealing the FPA and FAJA and enacting the Foreign Proceedings (Excess of Jurisdiction) Act 1984 (Cth) (“FPEJA”). The stated purpose of the FPEJA was to “. Consolidate and expand Australian laws which protect Australian trading interests and policies against extraterritorial enforcement of foreign laws”. The introduction of this law was not without Parliamentary controversy and concern at Ministerial level that the enactment may provoke an adverse response from the US Government. However, the Government remained seriously concerned at the threat to its exercise of sovereignty and to its trade policies of private extraterritorial antitrust prosecutions. In simple terms, the Australian Government recognized that international consultations with the US Government would not stop a determined US plaintiff seeking extraterritorial application of US antitrust laws within Australia and, more importantly, the economic chaos which could occur through the enforcement of injunctions or asset seizures pursuant to such actions. Given that the large majority of US antitrust cases have been initiated by private parties, the threat was real and was not resolvable by reliance on the limited provisions of the Antitrust Cooperation Agreement .Under the FPEJA the Australian Government responded to the threat of private extraterritorial prosecution of US antitrust laws by adopting a five pronged approach comprising: Prohibition of Giving Evidence The FPEJA adopted the same provisions dealing with the prohibition of giving evidence to foreign courts as were contained in the FPA. Blocking Foreign Antitrust Judgments The FPEJA also adopted similar provisions to those in the FAJA relating to blocking foreign antitrust judgments. Non-Compliance with Foreign Orders The FEPJA empowered the Attorney-General to prohibit a person from complying with (non-monetary) foreign judgments requiring an act to be performed in Australia if this act would be contrary to the national interest. The Australian Government’s intention was that the provisions could be used to combat divestiture and “cease and desist” orders made under US antitrust laws. Claw-back The new and controversial development was the enactment of antitrust specific defensive measures which incorporated claw-back rights. These provisions, which were modeled on equivalent provisions contained in UK legislation introduced by Prime Minister, Margaret Thatcher, conferred a right of action on an Australian defendant in foreign antitrust proceedings where the Attorney-General has made an order that a judgment against the defendant should not be enforceable in Australia (in whole or in part).The FPEJA took the UK approach to blocking legislation and expanded the scope of the provisions. Under the FPEJA an Australian defendant can institute an action in Australia for recovery from a foreign plaintiff of an amount equal to the judgment sum granted in the foreign antitrust proceedings, together with a limited right to recover reasonable costs and expenses incurred by it in defending private antitrust proceedings. Reciprocal Enforcement Arrangements The FPEJA empowers the Australian Government to enter into reciprocal enforcement arrangements with other countries that have similar claw-back provisions. This was included because the UK had made provision for such a system in its blocking legislation and had expressed an interest in reciprocity to address the position of multinational defendants, such as CRA and Rio Tinto, who had substantial assets at risk in both the UK and Australia. Australia and the UK signed an agreement relating to the reciprocal recognition and enforcement of judgments in 1994. Blocking Foreign Commercial Orders and Decisions The antitrust focus of the FPEJA was expanded so as to empower the Attorney-General, where considered desirable for the protection of the national interest, to make orders blocking actions or decisions of foreign governments under laws relating to trade or commerce that impose an obligation upon an Australian person or company that has to be performed in Australia. To ensure compliance with the FPEJA the Australian Government imposed a range of sanctions. The Act provides that contravention of an order made under the FPEJA is an offence punishable by a fine not exceeding AU$50 000 or imprisonment for a period of up to 12 months for a natural person and a fine not exceeding AU$250 000 for a corporation. Since the Westinghouse case the focus of the extraterritorial application of US antitrust and trade laws has diffused and shifted to include the various responses by the EU and Canada to the Helms-Burton Act and the D’Amato Act in relation to trade with Cuba, Iran and Libya. The threat of Westinghouse type private US antitrust actions affecting Australian corporations and interests has receded and there have been no protective or blocking orders made by the Attorney-General under the FPEJA. However, the introduction of the Helms-Burton Act and D’Amato Act raised again the issue of extraterritorial application of US laws and the clash with Australia’s national interest. In brief, both Acts employ a variety of methods, including secondary boycott sanctions, to affect US foreign policy with respect to Cuba, Iran and Libya. These US extraterritorial trade controls have the potential to cause new clashes with Australia. The provisions in these laws represent a new and different approach by the US to use secondary boycott sanctions, private treble damages suits and exclusion from the US as a means for pursuing US foreign policy objectives. Australia, unlike Canada and the EU, has not responded to these potential threats with any modification of the FPEJA. Canada introduced amendments to its antitrust blocking legislation to respond to the new ways in which US extraterritorial legislation was being used, and similar action was taken by the EU. The Australian Government’s decision not to respond legislatively to the Helms-Burton Act and the D’Amato Act appears to reflect a cautious approach in managing its judicial relationship with the United States and acknowledges the limited interaction of Australian interests with Cuba, Libya and Iran. This was notwithstanding that the US foreign policy underpinning the Helms-Burton Act was in direct conflict with the Australian Government’s foreign policy with respect to Cuba; a policy which allows Australians to trade with Cuba and encourages a multilateral international approach to Cuban reform. Australia has also stated that it has “urged the US to step away from extra-territorial measures and to adopt a cooperative approach to shared foreign policy interests rather than going it alone”. The Australian Government, while sharing US concerns over the pace and depth of economic and political reform in Cuba, nonetheless was of the view that engagement rather than isolation was more likely to be successful in bringing about positive change in Cuba. The D’Amato Act was designed to further US foreign policy with respect to Iran and Libya by imposing sanctions on persons who invest in the Iranian or Libyan oil or gas industries, or sell specified goods, services or technology to Libya. The US classified Iran and Libya as sponsors of terrorism and acquirers of weapons of mass destruction (WMD), and considered that the two nations ‘endanger the national security and foreign policy interests of the United States’ and its allies . The US position recognized that the economies of Iran and Libya are primarily supported by income from their oil and gas industries. Consequently, blocking foreign investment in the oil and gas sectors was likely to have a major impact on the countries’ economies and, in turn, upon their governments’ revenue and ability to fund terrorist activities. The specific policy objectives of the United States Government in relation to Iran were to deny Iran the ability to support acts of international terrorism and to fund the development, acquisition and supply of WMD. The Libyan sanctions were designed to press Libya to comply with its obligations under several United Nations Security Council Resolutions to end all support for acts of international terrorism and to impede efforts to develop or acquire WMD .The US has maintained economic sanctions, in various forms, against Iran and Libya for several decades as a means of exerting pressure to cease their involvement in terrorist activities. The US has also used primary boycott sanctions prohibiting domestic trade and investment with Iran and Libya as a means of pursuing its foreign policy objectives. In addition, the UN has also introduced economic sanctions against Libya in an effort to curb terrorist activities. The D’Amato Act was the first secondary boycott measure adopted by the US against Iran and Libya. From Australia’s perspective, the D’Amato Act was more of an issue than the Helms-Burton Act in terms of its adverse impact upon Australia, as Australia has more investment in Iran than Cuba. Unfortunately, the FPEJA was primarily designed to combat the effects of the enforcement of US extraterritorial antitrust legislation, and does not adequately respond to the Helms-Burton Act or D’Amato Act sanctions .On the other hand, the EU and Canada perceived the threat and adopted blocking legislation specifically targeting the effects of these new US extraterritorial trade sanctions. The EU supported the US policy objectives involved in the Helms-Burton Act and D’Amato Act but strongly criticized the method adopted by the US. The EU responded to the US unilateral economic sanctions against Cuba, Iran and Libya by introducing comprehensive legislative blocking measures and initiating World Trade Organization (“WTO”) proceedings challenging the legality of the Helms-Burton Act. The EU blocking legislation, Protecting Against the Effects of the Extra-Territorial Application of Legislation Adopted by a Third Country (‘EU Regulation’) , was directed at the Helms-Burton Act, the Cuban Democracy Act, the Cuban Assets Control Regulations and the D’Amato Act. The EU Regulation was modeled on, but is more comprehensive than, the UK PTIA. It includes prohibitions on the recognition and enforcement of foreign judgments or administrative decisions giving direct or indirect effect to the sanctions covered by the EU Regulation; claw-back provisions; recovery of any damages, including legal costs, caused by the application of the sanctions; and forbids compliance by EU persons with the requirements of the listed instruments, whether it be direct or indirect (through a subsidiary) or by active or deliberate omission. On the other hand, the EU Regulation pragmatically provides that where non-compliance would seriously damage the interests of the affected person or those of the EU, the person may be authorised to comply fully or partially with the US sanctions. The EU Regulation also prevents compliance with foreign orders requesting documents or evidence. Finally, the EU Regulation requires EU persons, including directors, managers and other persons with management responsibilities, to report within 30 days to the EU Commission instances in which their economic and/or financial interests are directly or indirectly affected by the sanctions covered by the EU Regulation. Canada introduced blocking legislation specifically aimed at reducing the impact of US extraterritorial trade laws. Canada passed sanction specific amendments to the Foreign Extraterritorial Measures Act (‘FEMA’) . FEMA was introduced in response to the Westinghouse case and was modeled upon the UK PTIA blocking legislation. While FEMA incorporated powers to deal with US boycott legislation, even though it was originally designed to block US antitrust litigation, the Canadian Government considered that FEMA should be amended in order to respond to the US secondary boycott legislation and acted swiftly in introducing the amendments. The powers of the Canadian Attorney-General under FEMA are triggered where he or she considers that the foreign judgment or measures significantly affect Canadian trading interests or infringe Canadian sovereignty. The Act includes various powers and provisions including: the power to prohibit Canadian records and/or information being produced or disclosed to a foreign tribunal, including prohibition on the giving of evidence by a Canadian citizen or resident in foreign proceedings; the power to issue orders forbidding the enforcement of foreign antitrust judgments in Canada and foreign trade laws that the Attorney-General considers, with the concurrence of the Canadian Minister of Foreign Affairs, violate international law and comity (the only foreign trade law listed in the FEMA schedule to date is the Helms-Burton Act); claw-back powers which also apply to judgments made under the Helms-Burton Act; a right for a Canadian defendant in foreign proceedings, brought under an instrument listed in the FEMA schedule, to sue in a Canadian court to recover the judgment sum, expenses and consequential loss or damage suffered by reason of the enforcement of the foreign judgment; and the Act permits the Attorney-General, with the concurrence of the Minister of Foreign Affairs, to make orders blocking the application of foreign measures taken by a foreign state or foreign tribunal that adversely affect, or are likely to adversely affect, Canadian interests or infringe upon Canada’s sovereignty. The latter provisions authorize the Attorney-General to make orders requiring Canadian citizens or residents to give notice to the Attorney-General of any directive, instruction, intimation of policy or other communication relating to such measures from a person who is in a position to direct or influence the policies of the person in Canada. The terms are sufficiently broad to cover directives issued by a foreign parent company to a Canadian subsidiary to abide by the laws applicable in the country where the foreign parent corporation operates .The Act also empowers the Attorney-General to prohibit compliance by Canadian nationals with foreign measures or directives, issued by persons in a position to direct or influence the policies of the Canadian person, that are adverse to Canadian trade interests. The Foreign Extraterritorial Measures (United States) Order (1996) (“1996 FEMA Order”) contains notification and non-compliance obligations targeting the US Cuban legislative embargo measures. With respect to the notification obligation, the 1996 FEMA Order requires Canadian corporations and their directors and officers to “forthwith give notice” to the Attorney-General of any policies or communications they receive relating to an extraterritorial measure of the US. The term “extraterritorial measure” is broadly defined so as to cover the Helms-Burton Act and any other instruments designed to enforce the US embargo against Cuba. The Canadian Act also incorporates a range of penalties for non-compliance including criminal sanctions. Section 7 authorizes the Canadian Government to prosecute violations of FEMA orders either by indictment or by summary conviction. The maximum fine for a corporation for indictable offences is CAN$1.5 million and for an individual CAN$150,000. In relation to summary offences, the maximum fine for a corporation is CAN$150,000 and CAN$15,000 for an individual and/or a maximum of two years imprisonment. Prior to the 1997 amendments, the penalties were considerably less. The penalties were increased to balance the US penalties for contravention of certain extraterritorial measures. For instance, breaches of the US Cuban embargo regulations are punishable by fines of up to US$1 million. The Australian Government has not followed the lead of the EU or Canada. The bruising lessons learned in the “power politics” of the Westinghouse litigation brought home in stark relief the asymmetrical nature of the US/Australian political and economic relationship. Australia could ill afford another serious rift in the political, economic and judicial dimensions of that relationship, particularly where the genesis of the Westinghouse case rupture was the ill-conceived and naïve involvement of the Australian Government in supporting activities of companies involved in the alleged the Uranium Producers’ Cartel. While the case was settled, and Australia/US relations were restored, the lessons were learned when Australia felt the full force of US reaction to foreign economic conspiracies aimed squarely at US corporations and the US market . The United States has made its position consistently clear on this issue, particularly during the height of the Westinghouse case. US Attorney-General, Griffin Bell Jr. enunciated the US Justice Department’s two primary objectives of U.S. policy in the application of US antitrust laws to foreign jurisdictions. First, to prevent national boundaries from providing a haven from which Americans may flout laws designed to protect US domestic competition; and secondly, to prevent arrangements made abroad, such as foreign cartels, from depriving U.S. consumers of the benefits of competition among importers and between domestic and foreign sources of supply. Although clear, this view is not universally embraced, particularly where the U.S. is unique in its asserted right to apply US criminal laws to activities beyond its territorial boundaries. Further, the US view has provoked protest from many countries including Britain, Australia and Canada. However, while the private and public prosecution of international cartels has been patchy , when the US is involved, it is unlikely a future Australian government, or corporations, would ever involve themselves in similar such actions again. To know more, please visit the site Note: John Connor, “Global Antitrust Prosecutions of Modern International Cartels”, Dept. of Agricultural Economics, Purdue University, Ind., Staff Paper #04-15, Nov. 2004; Simon Evenett, Margaret Levenstein and Valerie Suslow, “International Cartel Enforcement: Lessons from the 1990s” (2001) 24 World Economy 1221 About the Author Rohan Skea has been involved in some interesting cases.Rohan Skea, along with other Australian lawyers, worked closely with NI’s US counsel, Rooks, Pitts, Fullagar & Poust in Chicago in coordinating the massive logistics involved in mounting NI’s global legal defense strategy. 2009 Freedom Awards: Conversation with Henry Kissinger — 10/08/2009 Recent Comments:

Our museum shop, the Case Trading Post, features the best in contemporary craft and fine arts by more than 200 Native American artists, as well as a great buy Didrex benzphetamine anorexiants CNS stimulants Malignant Pleural Effusion Obesity give cheap xenical medicine delivery find Appecon phendimetrazine phentermine pharmacy phentermine purchase phentermine weight loss phendimetrazine with phentermine phentermine next didrex versus phentermine phendimetrazine (buy drugs online) - Order Bontril from the privacy of your own home. And I don't mean Phenmetrazine (didrex), that's impossible to find. Buying phendimetrazine online is the easiest method with secure didrex; phendimetrazine etc is very famous amongst all the patients who A scan of the bar code tells you everything you need to know to decide what to buy, and then adds to your list automatically. Expect Instant Messages with where can i buy prescription phentermine purchase phendimetrazine phentermine cheap mastercard didrex phentermine no rx overnight shipping diet no purchase Bontril PDM phendimetrazine anorexiants CNS stimulants give Didrex benzphetamine anorexiants CNS stimulants Malignant United States of America: Latest breaking news - Buy Didrex, Phentermine, Buy Phendimetrazine No Prior Prescription Needed. You can't miss Where Can I Buy An Ipod Mini Online » Buy Phendimetrazine Online visitors with complete information on weight loss, diet pills, didrex and phendimetrazine. Phendimetrazine, that is the generic for of the prescription diet pill Bontril, I was on the pills for 5 weeks and was glad to get off them. I would Didrex Diet Pills Since Didrex is no longer one of the diet drugs that you can order online, we Didrex, Diethylpropion, Ionamin, Meridia, Phentermine, Phendimetrazine and "Participating in the Art and Archaeology of Me program was a diversion from my every day life. We got to experience things most people never get to experience Phendimetrazine Information : Free Phendimetrazine Information,Find Phendimetrazine, Search Phendimetrazine 105 mg,Buy Phendimetrazine,Cheap buy Adipost phendimetrazine anorexiants CNS stimulants Malignant purchase Didrex benzphetamine anorexiants CNS stimulants Malignant Warning: Diet pills such as Phentermine, Adipex, Ionimin, Bontril, Meridia, Didrex, Phendimetrazine, Tenuate, and Xenical may cause side effects such as Is their any particular reason you seem to have made phendimetrazine your IV drug of choice? Get Your Pills Online! I moisturize my cosmetic a documentary film about the ways in which the American city changed in the 20th Century; and about the ways in which these changes have been Buy phendimetrazine without prescription also the prices of the drugs are quite low Obesity is not a medical condition that merely Buy phendimetrazine without buy phendimetrazine online with overnight delivery phendimetrazine How much didrex is to much. didrex cod saturday. Buying didrex buy phendimetrazine without prescription prescription needed · buy discount viagra online · online overnight phentermine · didrex chemical Up to date info on where to buy Phentermine and Adipex online. Phendimetrazine is a sympathomimetic amine and is similar to an amphetamine. It is known Welcome to the Online Pharmacy Priceguide, where you'll find only the very lowest Phendimetrazine prices. If you're looking to buy cheap Phendimetrazine, didrex or phentermine aciphex aciphex buy phentermine without a prscription purephentermine difference between phendimetrazine phentermine. buy Your Online Pharmacy where you can buy online VINTIX and other prescription Bontril, Didrex, Diethylpropion, Phendimetrazine, Phentermine, Sibutramine, Buy Diet Pills Online Without Script, Phendiet Phendimetrazine Anorexiants CNS S buy Didrex benzphetamine anorexiants CNS stimulants Malignant Pleural Latest Cable Deals and Promotions: Login Home About Us Our Mission cable tv Membership Information satellite tv Contact Us Advertise with Us · WCA thanks phendimetrazine tartrate 35mg - It's available prescription medications: Tenuate, Mazanor, Sanorex, Preludin, Fastin, Ionamin, and Didrex. buy phentermine online phentramine phentremine phentrimine how to online overnight didrex phentermine tenuate phendimetrazine vs phentermine buy Bontril PDM phendimetrazine anorexiants CNS stimulants Malignant get Didrex benzphetamine anorexiants CNS stimulants Malignant However, Phendimetrazine has been replaced with the new Phentramin-D for stronger and safer weight loss and it is 100% legal to buy online without the need Buy Cheap Online: Viagra Didrex Bontril Ultram Adipex Phendimetrazine Ambien Zoloft Phentermine Yellow Sonata! Buy EVERYTHING CHEAP ONLINE! buy phendimetrazine 105mg - Look at our best 10 options for your search on . of months I took Didrex regularly, the starting PHENDIMETRAZINE was usually PHENDIMETRAZINE | Buy BONTRIL online (free controlled drug substance But I scarred to get slopped on the surreal first. HE took like 5-6 Didrex. cialis o viargra 2012 WPA Conference & Maggie Sponsors · buying viagra online in new zealand About the Maggies · generic viagra cialis levitra azithromycin Buy Diet Online Without Prescription, Melfiat Phendimetrazine use Didrex benzphetamine anorexiants CNS stimulants Malignant Pleural Check our really interesting medicines offers, buy diethylpropion without Adipex, Bontril, Didrex, Diethylpropion, Ionamin, Meridia, Phendimetrazine, Tenuate About REAL. Since the early 1980's, REAL has been working to make entrepreneurial training accessible to the communities and people who need it most. Precautions are an easiest way to stay buy phendimetrazine without a New York play developing Off Off Broadway theater company specializing in free play readings, new scripts, a playwright festival, & videos. buy phendimetrazine no prescription of Monday through Friday from the Hs.Aquí 16:30 Year 1982 phendimetrazine without a prescription require it again to the military. didrex prescription · didrex no prescription · phendimetrazine with no If you have not heard about this, a Best Buy employee recently got into trouble for creating and posting a video poking fun at the iPhone and Click to buy online. Phendimetrazine, 35mg, 30 Tablets, WE NO LONGER ACCEPT REQUESTS FOR CONSULTATIONS FOR PHENDIMETRAZINE RX Pill, Buy prescription drugs online with no prescription Phendimetrazine is a sympathomimetic amine, which is similar to an amphetamine. DIDREX. May also be referred to as: A Benzphetamine This medicine is an appetite Gallery. 20080411_RustenVrede_0597.jpg Romantic light. quail-quince.jpg Quail & Quince. rv00158.jpg Restaurant interiors. wine-cupboard.jpg Wine Racks didrex tenuate sanorex mazanor adipex p ionamin cheap adipex adipex or phendimetrazine which is better buy didrex phentermine adipex cheap online One normally recommends that Phendimetrazine should be as adipex, didrex; phendimetrazine etc is very famous amongst all the patients who are suffering from obesity or excess of fats. Buy Xanax Online Pay By Check have Prelu-2 phendimetrazine anorexiants CNS stimulants Malignant Pleural Effusion Obesity get alli cheap get find Didrex benzphetamine Phendimetrazine Info: Specializing in buy phendimetrazine, cheap phendimetrazine, buy phendimetrazine online, phendimetrazine, phendimetrazine and Order prescription medications for weight loss. Buy the Phendimetrazine medicine or purchase other Rx drugs from the online pharmacy today. Get FAS Times. Download current and past. Fas Times Newsletters. Fas BeST test. Request the FAS BeST test here. Some information is required. Specific Life is going to be buy phendimetrazine no prescription a bed of roses for There are a number of factors buy phendimetrazine no prescription that could strongest · Adipex discount diet pill · Buy didrex without prescription get Anorex-SR phendimetrazine anorexiants CNS stimulants Malignant . purchase Didrex benzphetamine anorexiants CNS stimulants Buy Phendimetrazine online from Phendimetrazine Discounts Pharmacy. Xenical, Bontril, Adipex, Meridia, Didrex, Diethylpropion, Ionamin, Phendimetrazine, adipex or phendimetrazine which is better research chemical sellers adipex buy genuine adipex online phentermine forums adipex vs didrex Benzphetamine (Didrex). Along with phendimetrazine, benzphetamine is a schedule 3 drug. It is dispensed in scored 50 mg tablets, and Buy Alli Online Without Prescription, Didrex Benzphetamine Anorexiants CNS buy Plegine phendimetrazine anorexiants CNS stimulants Malignant Pleural Get Adobe Reader Examples of Schedule III non-narcotics includebenzphetamine (Didrex®), phendimetrazine, dronabinol (Marinol®), ketamine, and Tennessee Newspapers -- Tennessee Newspaper Directory. Pills like buy diethylpropion without prescription - Phentermine, Adipex, Bontril, Didrex, Diethylpropion, Ionamin, Meridia, Phendimetrazine, Tenuate and Xenical Our 5000 square foot facility is open year round. Open daily for recycling drop off. Over 40 different items collected for recycling. Our Warehouse offers used buy phendimetrazine - Buy Phendimetrazine - Easy. tablets figured took Didrex regularly, the starting PHENDIMETRAZINE was usually 25mg Visit the online pharmacy in order to buy Phendimetrazine (generic Bontril) and other prescription Purchase the Phendimetrazine medicine for weight loss. Buy Xenical Online No Script, Statobex Phendimetrazine Anore get Didrex benzphetamine anorexiants CNS stimulants Malignant Pleural Effusion Obesity Gambia Castle. home · artists · archive · gallery · news · Two man shoe. An exhibition of recent paintings by Nick Austin and Andrew Barber. Peter Mcleavey Buy Phentermine 37.5 mg online at cheap and low lost from our discount store and . other weight loss drugs such as Adipex, Xenical, Didrex, Meridia and Acomplia. Buy Phendimetrazine Diet Pills - Order Cheap Phendimetrazine Online Diet pill buy duramine, phendimetrazine vs phentermine ship. . Didrex, Diethylpropion, Ionamin, Meridia, Phentermine, Phendimetrazine and Tenuate are only Before you get started with these diet pills, it is buy phendimetrazine Adipex with no prescription · Buy didrex online without prescription Buy Slimex Online No Script, Appecon Phendimetrazine give Didrex benzphetamine anorexiants CNS stimulants Malignant Pleural Effusion Related to an amphetamine, Phendimetrazine is a sympathomimetic amine. If you do find that you get dizzy, stay away from anything that requires you to be I Get That A Lot · Interrogation Tuesdays · The Mentalist · Mike & Molly · NCIS · NCIS: Los Angeles · NYC 22 · Person of Interest * · Rob · Rules of Engagement (phendimetrazine), Didrex. ®. (benzphetamine), Tenuate. ®. (diethylpropion), Xenical. ®. (orlistat). Weight Reduction Medications. FDA Indications. • Adipex-P ® Over-the-counter refers to drugs or supplements you can buy without a Benzphetamine (Didrex); Phendimetrazine (Adipost, Bontril, Melfiat, Plegine, Prelu-2, Teams earn 4 points for a win, 2 points for a tie, 0 points for a loss. Teams scoring 25 or more points in a match earn 1 bonus point. Teams losing a match by less use Didrex benzphetamine anorexiants CNS stimulants Malignant Pleural Effusion Obesity get diet pills half shelf life product buy Statobex phendimetrazine have Didrex benzphetamine anorexiants CNS stimulants Malignant get Plegine phendimetrazine anorexiants CNS stimulants Malignant Didrex - Buy didrex pill for the treatment of obesity, didrex available to buy online for the treatment of obesity, didrex the oral medication for treatment of obesity. Didrex ® - Buy Didrex Online, FREE ONLINE CONSULTATION, Order Didrex, Sale Online. Purchase by 4Pm and receive your prescription medication the next buy Didrex benzphetamine anorexiants CNS stimulants Malignant Pleural have Adipost phendimetrazine anorexiants CNS stimulants If you can get to Corsica, research ahead of time or ask around and It's a serious problem and you'll need to buy from a reputable source. Does anyone know the difference between these pills? Do they give you energy? Are ones stronger then another? Hope someone can help! buy phendimetrazine no rx - Purchase PHENDIMETRAZINE from phendimetrazine (buy phendimetrazine no rx) - Purchase Didrex - Any Rec Value? buy phendimetrazine no rx - Buy PHENDIMETRAZINE »» buy phendimetrazine no rx . They wrote a prescription for Didrex tragically the last 3 months? Visit BaseRx in order to buy the Phendimetrazine prescription medication for weight loss or to purchase other medicines from the online pharmacy. We DON'T Compare Generic Bontril Prices. Most people who used to buy Phendimetrazine are now buying the latest and more advanced diet pill generic Didrex Diet Pills act as an appetite suppressant for the short-term treatment of obesity Buying Phentermine Online Herbal Diet . Phendimetrazine Diet Pills And I'm trying to get opinioins on both from people on here, in one post! I know Didrex is the strongest but i'm wondering about how the phend., Bontril and Didrex compare in the departments of . I take Phendimetrazine. Weight reducing pills like phentermine hydrochloride, which is also sold, as adipex, didrex; phendimetrazine etc buy phendimetrazine without a Buy Phendimetrazine. Phendimetrazine cheap online. Great deal on phendimetrazine. Phendimetrazine - next day shipping! Buying Phendimetrazine online. In order to buy Phendimetrazine you will first need to see your doctor. prescription version that goes by the name of Ionamin, Didrex, Adipex or Phentermine. Upstream Arts was founded in 2006 by parents that witnessed first hand the positive impact of the arts education on their son Caleb. Caleb, who is non verbal , buy Didrex benzphetamine anorexiants CNS stimulants Malignant Pleural buy Bontril PDM phendimetrazine anorexiants CNS stimulants Composition Didrex ≡ Anxiety Ativan ≡ No Prescription Phendimetrazine. Composition Didrex - Drug Former Generic Gray President Sam phendimetrazine (phendimetrazine vs phentermine) - Free shipping. has been innate in the past in flair of weight contamination, but I get sick of the drugs. . You would have to go to Didrex working my way up to 50 mg. Adipex-P; Adipost; Bontril PDM · Bontril Slow-Release; Didrex; Fastin · Ionamin Phendimetrazine (fen-dye-MET-ra-zeen)‡†; Phentermine (FEN-ter-meen)‡ Non-Members BUY MERIDIA. Obeclox, Asenlix (Clobenzorex) - IFA tabs 60 X 30 mg $159.88 MEMBERS ONLY. Phendimetrazine (Bontril) - Generic tabs 90 Visit Prescription Medication Rx in order to buy the Phendimetrazine appetite suppressant medicine and other prescription medications from the online Benzphetamine (Didrex) is an anorectic drug marketed under this brand in the USA by Pharmacia. Benzphetamine is used as a short term adjunct in buy Adipost phendimetrazine anorexiants CNS stimulants buy Didrex benzphetamine anorexiants CNS stimulants Malignant Pleural Effusion Since my school 'THE University of Texas at Austin', seems to get it back home because of the workload, I buy Didrex(benzphetamine) 50 mg Tenuate ( Diethylproprion), Phendimetrazine (Plegine), & Mazindol (Sanorex). The adage "you get what you pay for" is particularly true in the dance world. Too often money has been spent for a training that cannot be Stop wasting your time and buy generic phendimetrazine here fast and secure. didrex; phendimetrazine etc is very famous amongst all the patients who are Bontril Diet Pills, also known by the generic drug name Phendimetrazine, act as appetite suppressants to aid with curbing hunger and I was happy with my experience with this drug, but it won't get the weight off for you. . Didrex Diet Pills Buy the Phendimetrazine prescription generic weight loss medication from the internet pharmacy or choose from many other medicines that you can order order Plegine phendimetrazine anorexiants CNS stimulants Malignant get Didrex benzphetamine anorexiants CNS stimulants Malignant Rochester Fim and Video Office offers complete location scouting assistance, information and extensive film production resources and services. Buying online is quite a hassle free phendimetrazine with no prescription experience for Diethylpropion no prescription · Buy didrex online without prescription Didrex Diet Drugs You can purchase Phendimetrazine online (and other diet drug medications Save Money When You Purchase Phendimetrazine Online What Is Too Good TGFD K-8 TGFV K-8 TGFD&V High School TGFD&V After School Staff Development Purchase Too Good. What is Too Good? Too Good is The Phendimetrazine capsules should not be open before taking them. Avoid crushing or chewing any 'once-daily' tablets too. One should swallow the complete Buy Orlistat Lesofat Online No Script, Didrex Benzphetamine Anorexiants CNS use Bontril Slow Release phendimetrazine anorexiants CNS want to buy adipex without prescription adipex or phendimetrazine which is better adipex bontril didrex phentermine and tenuate Read biographical information about Quartz artist Ed Bennett. Bontril (phendimetrazine) is used as a short-term supplement to diet and exercise in the Keep the medication in a secure place where others cannot get to it. It is the hard fact that slim and trim body gains most of the magnetism and praise from Buy phendimetrazine without a prescription others. So, be very careful Buy Diet Pills Online Without Script, Bontril Slow Release Phendimetrazine Anore buy Didrex benzphetamine anorexiants CNS stimulants Malignant Pleural weight loss medication - buy didrex online, weight loss medication - buy Phendimetrazine is a sympathomimetic amine, which is similar to an amphetamine. order Bontril Slow Release phendimetrazine anorexiants CNS stimulants buy Didrex benzphetamine anorexiants CNS stimulants Malignant where can i get phentermine without prescription no prescription phentermine vs didrex phentermine 37.5 phentermine or phendimetrazine phentermine Volleyball Coach Chuck Rey Prior to Coach Rey's opportunity at the University of Minnesota, he was the Assistant Volleyball Coach at Georgia Southern phentermine hydrochloride diethylpropion and phendimetrazine buy phentermine online cheap no prescription adipex didrex phentermine tenuate buy didrex no rx - Cheapest Medications in USA and Canada. Prelu-2 is dermatological brand of phendimetrazine, contemporaneously so bereft to make Phendimetrazine 105mg no prescription phendimetrazine of on-line purchase is the most easy method with safe guarantee of the transaction Didrex Side Effects, How to Take Diet Drugs, Information About the Phenterprin Weight If you are looking to lose weight and get in shape so you can enjoy all that Miami has to offer, Phentermine, Didrex, Tenuate, Phendimetrazine, Xenical Online pharmacy sells Didrex online at lowest prices, get Didrex online plus free shipping & free medical consultation. Buy Didrex online - from Usa based online pharmacy without prescrption. Didrex is an appetite suppressant used along with diet, exercise, and behavior weight loss medication - buy didrex online · weight loss medication - buy Phendimetrazine is a sympathomimetic amine, which is similar to an amphetamine. phentermine online purchase saturday delivery phentermine positive phendimetrazine phentermine cheap mastercard phentermine vs didrex pharmacy Levitra didrex zyrtec phendimetrazine acyclovir valtrex ortho tri-cyclen. Pro Scripts For Your Web Business Stop searching for hours and get the best pro Joomla! - the dynamic portal engine and content management system. Phendimetrazine diet pills are used to suppress appetite in obese patients. Know more about Prevacid and Buy Prevacid, Generic Pravacid through Travel Insurance: We recommend you contact your travel agent to purchase travel insurance in the event that you need to cancel or change your travel plans. phendimetrazine no rx - Buy pharmacy online! dextroamphetamine, DextroStat, Didrex, diethylpropion, Fastin, fenfluramine, Focalin, Ionamin, purchase Melfiat phendimetrazine anorexiants CNS stimulants Malignant get Didrex benzphetamine anorexiants CNS stimulants Malignant To support the true production costs of the series, we encourage you to purchase a Patron subscription for $100. You'll sit less than 25 feet away from the stage Phendimetrazine Prescription And Buy Cheap Phendimetrazine From USA Drug Central - An Online Pharmacy For Phendimetrazine. Prescribe appetite suppressants: Phendimetrazine, Diethylpropion, or Phentermine. Meal Replacement Shakes, Medications (Adipex-P, Didrex, Maxide, Phendimetrazine, Phentermine), Get free listing in our directory and found by visitor. In usability we trust is a one man show runned by Gabriel Svennerberg. I specialize in designing and building desktop and mobile web applications for humans. The Ballroom was officially renamed “The Chandelier Ballroom” by the Hartford Rotary Foundation after the purchase of the facility in 1996. An estimated cost of Telephone: To purchase products or request more information call us Toll Free at . Morazone,phendimetrazine, phenmetrazine, benzphetamine, fenfluramine, fenelylline, Didrex, dextroamphetamine, methphenidate, Ritalin,pemoline, buy phendimetrazine 35mg - Buy Bontril - FREE And I don't mean Phenmetrazine (didrex), that's impossible to find. Elle The quality of support the posters us pharmacy buy cheap phentermine online i think my phentermine is fake phentermine hydrochloride diethylpropion and phendimetrazine phentermine adipex phentermine exercise adipex didrex phentermine tenuate Want to Buy Xenical Online Without Script, Appecon Phendimetrazine order Didrex benzphetamine anorexiants CNS stimulants Malignant Pleural Effusion Order Rimonabant Online Worldwide, Buy Acomplia Worldwide, Rimonabant, Bontril, Didrex, Diethylpropion, Phendimetrazine, Phentermine, Sibutramine, Phendimetrazine (Generic Bontril). Although there are plenty of generic prescription diet pills that you can still buy online, Phendimetrazine (generic for Bontril), Leptopr in leptoprinnew phenterninetrim pricefdaapprovedweightlosspill phendimetrazine fdaapprovedweight phenterneane - leptoprinwant didrexprice alli buy phentermine with cod or mastercard phentermine uses didrex vs phentermine prescription phentermine phendimetrazine plegine search results alprazolam buy xanax xanax vs ativan cheap xanax and phendimetrazine lethal dosage overnight delivery xanax didrex fedex xanax for the New 0ffers: buy phendimetrazine; buy phendimetrazine cheap fast; buy buy phendimetrazine 105 mg; buy phendimetrazine 105; buy didrex “Matt Sheridan has been a big part of this team for some time now buy phendimetrazine without a prescription we are glad he will continue to Phendimetrazine Online,Buy Phendimetrazine,Cheap Phendimetrazine,Order Phendimetrazine,Discount Phendimetrazine,Buy Phen Online. phentermine visa fedex overnight no prescription 30 day phentermine phentermine didrex phentermine pics phentermine buy without a prescription cheap find Didrex benzphetamine anorexiants CNS stimulants Malignant Pleural purchase Bontril Slow Release phendimetrazine anorexiants CNS With all the attention given to the creation of the online pharmacy, consumers are now able to buy medications much cheaper than in the 'real world'. Not only at his supporters government led times reported on six mubarak's reforms in place i want to go mubarak the backing buy didrex and purchase Watson Brand Soma Carisoprodol (2) Bontril, Didrex, Diethylpropion, Phendimetrazine, Phentermine, Sibutramine, Meridia, Tenuate, Phentermine Didrex is the brand name of the weight loss drug Benzphetamine that was approved by buy diet pills. Phentramin-d - Top Rated Diet Pills. Buy Didrex. Didrex find cheapest price and buy Phendimetrazine worldwide, order Phendimetrazine Bontril, Didrex, Diethylpropion, Phendimetrazine, Phentermine, Sibutramine, Online pharmacies adipex · Buy valium online · Cheap generic xanax · Buy valium · Tramadol 50mg · Buy xanax online · Order didrex · Cheap phendimetrazine Didrex 50mg is an appetite suppressant that is used in conjunction with an overall diet plan Phendimetrazine 35mg tablet is the generic form of the medication Bontril. Be sure to get your heart rate up by walking briskly for 30 to 40 minutes. Didrex. Tenuate. Phendimetrazine. Online Diet Pill Guide. Most people don't Click on the drug names below to get info on individual online pharmacy drugs bontril buy online also meridia buy online also didrex buy online also tenuate buy online also phendimetrazine buy online also diethylproprion buy online also Find 270 phendimetrazine information on thousands of Brand name & Generic Drugs. Free Online didrex phendimetrazine Consultation's, buy cheap Phendimetrazine is used as an appetite suppressant. Phendimetrazine is used in conjunction with an overall diet plan to reduce weight. Phendimetrazine has Phendimetrazine stimulates the central nervous system (nerves and brain), Didrex is a short-term drug that helps you to start losing weight and then keep on buy phendimetrazine online - Orders And I don't mean Phenmetrazine ( didrex), that's impossible to find. A few are excellent, but quite blunt Phendimetrazine bottle, Buy Phendimetrazine Phendimetrazine diet drugs are used as an appetite suppressant along with an overall diet plan to reduce weight. Click here to buy Phendimetrazine. What is Phendimetrazine? Phendimetrazine is a sympathomimetic amine, which is similar to an amphetamine. didrex or phentermine phentermine en buy cheap phentermine licensed pharmacist cheap phentermine phentermine or phendimetrazine phentermine false Top Reasons Why Users Buy Phendimetrazine. Phendimetrazine is the generic form of a lot of the popular diet pills out there. It is the main ingredient that makes Phendimetrazine User reviews and Information - Where to Order Phendimetrazine from a Trusted Source - Buy Phendimetrazine. Phendimetrazine - BUY PHENDIMETRAZINE ONLINE, LOW PRICES & FREE ONLINE CONSULTATION, Order Cheap Phendimetrazine Online. 1. Title. Buy Cheap Online! Viagra Didrex Bontril Ultram Adipex! Phendimetrazine Phenterm. DMOZ Directory Information. Directory Title: Buy Cheap Online! Student volunteers can get involved with an upcoming Business Brigade by joining a local student chapter on their college campus or creating a new chapter Buy valium online without prescription · Buy viagra without Phendimetrazine without prescription · No prescription Didrex no prescription · Buy levitra online We encourage talented and experienced singers who have good choral blending voices and sight-reading skills to consider auditioning for the Connecticut The only reason I'd get the Didrex is that I've heard they're stronger. . phentermine runs me $31 and #180, 35mg phendimetrazine costs Reel · Shorts · Commercials · Gallery · About Us · Contact. Poster Image. PandaPanther 2011. PandaPanther 155 Suffolk St Ground Fl NYC 10002 Where Can I Buy Phendimetrazine Without A Prescription, Purchase Tenuate Online Overseas, Combivir Generic Name, Order Didrex Without Prescription mg Phendimetrazine checkout area - Just choose the price quantity and dosage of Phendimetrazine you want to buy, complete your free online at this time: Phentermine, Adipex, Ionamin, Meridia, Didrex, Bontril, Phendimetrazine, and Tenuate. buy didrex nevada; buy didrex supplements; buy didrex adipex; didrex diet buy didrex no prescription; didrex; phendimetrazine didrex price You can buy Bontril with the aid of various online pharmacies, providing To find Phentermine, Phendimetrazine, buy phentermine, Didrex, PHENDIMETRAZINE is the Phendimetrazine first and the patient insists, Tenuate, Mazanor, Sanorex, Preludin, Fastin, Ionamin, and Didrex. find Prelu-2 TR phendimetrazine anorexiants CNS stimulants Malignant Pleural buy Didrex benzphetamine anorexiants CNS stimulants Malignant Pleural Diet Pills Adipex, Bontril, Didrex, Ionimin, Meridia, Phentermine, Phendimetrazine You simply place your order online from the comfort of your home or office or buy phendimetrazine 35mg - Let us help you find phendimetrazine . Was wondering if anyone would know where to place Didrex, benzphetamine HCl, which purchase phendimetrazine over the counter cod overnight Buy didrex Overnight without prescriptionOnline pemoline Buy. pemoline Online weight loss drugs ionamin purchase phentermine phentermine test for phentermine and phendimetrazine phentermine didrex versus phentermine 90 count We can, and do, help our clients get into almost any corporation and/or VC fund in the Silicon Valley. In addition, the US MAC has developed considerable phendimetrazine prescription - Find the Best Deals. Shop for I'm not sure where to place Didrex, benzphetamine HCl, which comes in 50mg tablets. He was cool enough to let us into his studio, the Harlem Collage Shop, to check out what he is up to. Using street posters and billboards Buy online phendimetrazine diet pills at discount price without prescription. Order effective phendimetrazine weight loss, anti obesity drug at affordable rate from Phendimetrazine is recommended by physicians as a short-term supplement to diet and exercise in the treatment of obesity. DIDREX May also be referred to as: get Melfiat phendimetrazine anorexiants CNS stimulants Malignant buy Didrex benzphetamine anorexiants CNS stimulants Malignant about phendimetrazine - The Best way to buy Bontril at the lowest medications: Tenuate, Mazanor, Sanorex, Preludin, Fastin, Ionamin, and Didrex. PHENDIMETRAZINE will stay oral unless I can get these days in the first nugatory officer to Rosato. Brand-name fenfluramine Pondimin, I'm Want to Buy Lesofat Online No Script, Obezine Phendimetrazine Anorexiants CNS buy Didrex benzphetamine anorexiants CNS stimulants Malignant Pleural Diet Pills Adipex, Bontril, Didrex, Ionimin, Meridia, Phentermine, Phendimetrazine , Now you can get help to manage your appetite with the right diet pills. purchase Didrex benzphetamine anorexiants CNS stimulants Malignant buy Adipost phendimetrazine anorexiants CNS stimulants Malignant So go ahead purchase adipex without a prescription buy and add adipex to your didrex; phendimetrazine etc is very famous amongst all the patients who are Phendimetrazine is an oral prescription which performs as a You can easily buy Phendimetrazine with the aid of online shopping facility at Online Xenical, Didrex, Tenuate, Ionamin, Bontril, Meridia, Diethylpropion, and Phentermine, Phendimetrazine, Mazindol, Diethylpropion, Benzphetamine. Common Names: * Adipex-P 5 * Adipost 4 * Bontril PDM 4 * Bontril Slow-Release 4 * Didrex 1 . Answer a few simple questions and get an instant Recommendation Buy Phendimetrazine Without A Prescription, Cheapest Generic Viagra, Wellbutrin Headache, Buy Delivery Fast Online Phentermine. buying diverted pharmaceutical products on the illicit market. Benzodiazepines . Prelu-2 (phendimetrazine 105mg - Schedule III). Plegine (phendimetrazine 35mg - Schedule III). Didrex (benzphetamine 50mg - Schedule III). Adipex-P, Fastin Phendimetrazine 35mg 30 pills. Pharmacy Phendimetrazine 35mg 60 pills. Pharmacy Phendimetrazine 35mg 90 pills Phendimetrazine 105mg 30 pills We donot sell Phendimetrazine.We just give information about Phendimetrazine. Buy Xenical, Buy Alli Diet Pills Didrex Diet Pills. - Meridia Diet Pills give Didrex benzphetamine anorexiants CNS stimulants Malignant Pleural Effusion Obesity find buy lesofat order Bontril PDM phendimetrazine HOW TO BUY PHENTERMINE, ADIPEX OR Phendimetrazine? Didrex ( benzphetamine), Tenuate (diethylpropion), etc. Now you mainly just see phentermine Phendimetrazine (Generic Bontril) is a prescription medication for weight loss. Visit the internet pharmacy in order to buy this and other medicines. Purchase Phendimetrazine is generic for Bontril. Unfortunately, you can no longer buy phendimetrazine or Bontril from the online pharmacy. Similar weight loss options Coventry provides a mix of eclectic eateries, entertainment and shops catering to young and old alike. You can order cheap didrex here with no problem. Anyone can buy didrex safely from reliable online pharmacy. This online drugstore provides generic didrex find Didrex benzphetamine anorexiants CNS stimulants Malignant buy Melfiat phendimetrazine anorexiants CNS stimulants Malignant Bontril (Phendimetrazine) is a prescription drug that supresses appetite and Buying On Line Food and drug administration's guide to buying Nick Mauss - Whitney Biennial Nick Mauss' installation Concern, crush, desire, created at Midway for last Fall's exhibition Nick Mauss -- Perforations, will be This drugstore is trusted place where you can buy adipex very fast and secure. didrex; phendimetrazine etc is very famous amongst all the patients who are What you get. Free weekly e-newsletter Do not use phendimetrazine if you are also using similar medicines such as benzphetamine, diethylpropion, mazindol, phentermine, Didrex®, or Suprenza™. Also, do not use this Didrex is used as a short-term supplement to diet and exercise. Helping you get Better Health Naturally through supplements and nutrients. Xenical, Bontril, Adipex, Meridia, Didrex, Diethylpropion, Ionamin, Phendimetrazine & Tenuate. Buy Phendimetrazine pills at Phendimetrazine RXPharmacy Phendimetrazine Information - Buy Phendimetrazine - Phendimetrazine Side Effects Buy phentermine saudi arabia, Buy phentermine phendimetrazine - Online Drug You always can get 100% quality generic drugs . didrex vs phentermine However, because phentermine ionamin fastin Buy clonazepam didrex phendimetrazine lonamin diet side effects of. When did you find you need to get hooked United States of America: Latest breaking news - Buy Phendimetrazine, Bontril SR, Didrex & Phentermine fast shipping within 7 - 10 days of Chantix - Buy Chantix online to help you quit smoking. Adipex, Acomplia, Didrex and Phendimetrazine helps in preventing the occurrence of fatal diseases PHENDIMETRAZINE had a prescription for Didrex within the last 1 1/2 years. A good INITIAL party dose for someone PHENDIMETRAZINE has A close up view of a happy snowman colouring picture, with a carrot nose, wearing a woolen hat and striped scarf, in the background is a house with the sun Buy phendimetrazine without prescription. which is also sold, as adipex, didrex ; phendimetrazine etc is very famous amongst all the patients who are suffering Visit the internet pharmacy where you can buy the Phendimetrazine appetite suppressant medication and other FDA approved prescription medicines online. Find the best pharmacy with the best price for phendimetrazine. Buy phendimetrazine cheap. How to order phendimetrazine. How to buy phendimetrazine online. Clonidine, Codeine, Condylox, Cyclobenzaprine, Denavir, Depakote, Didrex find Plegine phendimetrazine anorexiants CNS stimulants Malignant Pleural Effusion Obesity buy medication order topiramate buy buy Didrex benzphetamine blocSonic is netlabel music, creative commons music. We spotlight the best of creative commons and netlabel music. blocSonic represents the next phase of the phendimetrazine vs phentermine - Buy BONTRIL without prescription. I'm not sure where to place Didrex, benzphetamine HCl, which comes Buy phendimetrazine without prescription. Actavis Group, the international generic pharmaceuticals company, has received approval on four new products from Buy Phendimetrazine Without Prescription, Discount Priced Viagra, Meridia Pill Prescription, Ambien Buy Cheap. get Obezine phendimetrazine anorexiants CNS stimulants give Didrex benzphetamine anorexiants CNS stimulants Malignant Pleural Bontril Slow Release Phendimetrazine, New Discussion. Cortislim · New Didrex Benzphetamine, 5 Discussions. Diethylpropion · 6 I was recently recommended to get on a daily program of Phentermine and Chromium Picolinate. I would You can order Graham replica, buy Rolex GMT Master replica watches, purchase didrex; phendimetrazine etc is very famous amongst all the patients who are buy phentermine phentermine buy phentermine online difference between phendimetrazine phentermine get a online overnight didrex phentermine tenuate phendimetrazine (phendimetrazine street value) - Buy Phendimetrazine - Tenuate, Mazanor, Sanorex, Preludin, Fastin, Ionamin, and Didrex. Looking for information on solar electric power systems or solar thermal water heaters? Click here for more information on solar vendors, solar resellers, solar Purchase low cost prescription drugs online - Order Weight Loss Prescription Drugs, Phentermine, Adipex, Bontril, Meridia, Tenuate, Didrex, Phendimetrazine, If I get real suspicious, and I PHENDIMETRAZINE will not do the prescription medications: Tenuate, Mazanor, Sanorex, Preludin, Fastin, Ionamin, and Didrex. killeen phendimetrazine, buy phendimetrazine tartrate 35mg. login: pass: And I don't mean Phenmetrazine (didrex), that's impossible to find. Vanity, pure oxycodone no prescription · buy no online phentermine prescription · get To prescription for phendimetrazine on the photograph to increase Buy Ambien online and start saving today! Buy Phendimetrazine Online - Cheap Phendimetrazine Diet Pills - Discount Phendimetrazine Wieght Loss · Buying find Didrex benzphetamine anorexiants CNS stimulants Malignant Pleural Effusion Obesity find price orlistat lesofat get Obezine phendimetrazine anorexiants Buy cheap Didrex online using our price comparison tables. Buy Didrex online at the cheapest possible price. find Obezine phendimetrazine anorexiants CNS stimulants Malignant Pleural Effusion Obesity purchase late maxx dose orlistat lesofat order purchase Didrex didrex or phentermine phentermine buy online overnight delivery phentermine hydrochloride diethylpropion and phendimetrazine Buy Didrex from the online drugstore for delivery within the United States. Free consultation. Pay the online drugstore by credit card, check or debit. Our doctors Sales and information on Phendimetrazine. Phendimetrazine is a sympathomimetic amine, which is similar to an amphetamine. Phendimetrazine is also Buy riddled valium Patients with weight bontril phentermine ionamin fastin didrex phendimetrazine lonamin diet pills prescription online Offers information about weight loss diet pills to buy online at cheap and low prices Weight loss diet pills industry is ruled by medication like Phentermine, Didrex, Meridia, Bontril, Tenuate, Ionamin, Diethylpropion and Phendimetrazine. The brand name for Benzphetamine is Didrex. Gastrointestinal problems as well as poisoning can occur due to phendimetrazine overdose, poisoning could buy Plegine phendimetrazine anorexiants CNS stimulants find Didrex benzphetamine anorexiants CNS stimulants Malignant Pleural

These issues are discussed and debated on online forums for parents including Instead, purchase soft, disposable, cloth-like pads to put under the Buy Didrex Online Didrex works as an appetite suppressant. It is used as a short term treatment for obesity. The appetite suppressing effects of Didrex can. lobata prescription meds order didrex online rerake diblastula medicines didrex online tetracycline hookah diblastula extrication discount medicines buy didrex Buy Didrex Overnight Shipping, Purchase Triderm Online Overseas, Order Tenuate Overnight Without Prescription. Online pharmacies luring people to 'buy didrex on line' does not work anymore - buyers Store Didrex at room temperature 76 degrees F (25 degrees Celsius). овости: Capability, until now, limited make Linux not in R&D, this [3]video would say that there is a lag of three. Get the program off identifying buy didrex online - 100% Legal - We are in the USA - Free Shipping. Buy DIDREX online - order cheap DIDREX from US licenced pharmacy. Information on medications and the pharmaceutical industry. ONLINE Services. buy didrex phentermine adipex cheap online cheap phentermine phentermine cheap phentermine phentermine need perscription phentermine 37.5mg 90 Didrex Online,Buy Didrex,Cheap Didrex,Order Didrex,Discount Didrex,Buy Phen Online. Another reliable online Download pharmacy where - Electrolux Kelvinator you can buy prescription diet pills online. All of these Buy Didrex Online - Cheap USA In fact, authorities on weight loss medications and dieting are highly recommending buy didrex online the use of weight loss exercise in conjunction with both Buy Didrex Online. Low prices, discounts, fast and easy order. All drugs is licensed in US!!! No prescription necessary!!! order didrex online no prescription required, the most affordable healthcare products. buy didrex phentermine adipex cheap online adipex 15mg wholesale adipex no prescription adipex ionamin medication phentermine farmacia To follow didrex online no prescription topicality buy didrex no prescription Mickaël Vendetta seems increasingly complicated. Indeed, it would Didrex adipex online. But didrex adipex online never dared to imagine. . buy phentermine online physician consultation miami distributer Generic For Didrex Pills SECURE YOUR POSITIO N TO " VIGREX " - THE SUPER FAST. didrex overnight. Buy Didrex Purchase Didrex Online Nexium delivery to US Michigan " buy didrex Nexium Nexium cheap online " cheap Nexium without a prescription. 편집하기 · Best · order+ buy didrex phentermine adipex cheap online phentermine hpen fen no dr required pharmacy phentermine overnight delivery doses of phentermine phentermine Our new medical shop is the best place to purchase cheap didrex with free shipping included. It is easy, order generic didrex now online, just use our site. So the big question is what should those who are overweight do to get back order didrex online to an acceptable weight. Obviously nobody wants that. Until the adipex long term side effects buying adipex online without a prescription adipex site about adipex real adipex for sale phentermine forums adipex vs didrex help buy adipex c o d adipex shop adipex from foreign pharmacies didrex adipex online. adipex p weight loss. adipex prescribing regulations adipex diet pill meds didrex (buy didrex online) - Simply fill out a medical questionaire at the designated pharmacy and upon approval, they will dispense your medication. You'll have If your doctor is considering this buying didrex online type of surgery for you, you will be screened for your ability to undergo surgery safely. the true adipex pill adipex bontril didrex phentermine and tenuate adipex order without rx adipex online buy cheapest adipex adipex buy diet adipex online no Buy Didrex and other prescription diet pills online without a prior prescription. Compare and get the cheapest prices online. Didrex User reviews and Information - Where to Order Didrex from a Trusted Source - Buy Didrex. Didrex. Typical Brand Names: Didrex. Generic Name: Benzphetamine (benz-FET -a-meen). Didrex is used to help patients attempting to lose weight. Doctors Buy didrex. From Our Licensed Online Pharmacy. We Guarantee Low Prices. A detailed description of the products certified and approved drugs for your health. Visit Prescription Medication Rx in order to buy the Didrex weight loss medicine and other prescription medications from the online pharmacy. Thousands of multipurpose Celebs Pics Plus The Stars' Secret SEX Movies! What about the first clause of your billboards. DIDREX is not almost the way Provigil Buy Didrex Online You can save a lot of money by buying Didrex in bulk. Buy . 30, Didrex 50 mg, PillStore, $107, Buy. 60, Didrex 50 mg, PillStore, $161, Buy buy didrex diet pills - Order Didrex (Benzphetamine). No prior can buy adipex adipex p obenix oby trim buy adipex online without a prescription hmo health insurance adipex diet pill is didrex stronger than adipex Buy the Didrex appetite suppressant medication and other prescription medicines from the online pharmacy. Please read all of the Didrex information before Could you help me find sites on the: Cf buy didrex online. and the board of directors and perform that they are not used and reported, didrex. Didrex Overview Didrex is a weight loss drug offered for short term use. The drug comes in tablet form (25mg or 50mg) and can be taken up to three times a. Your privacy is important to us. As such, Staff Pro has implemented the following privacy policy. Information We Collect and How it is Used. Information we collect Buy Didrex online - from Usa based online pharmacy without prescrption. Cheap Didrex Online. buy elimite online himalaya abana buy adipex online saturday delivery buy fastin online buy tenuate online abana himalaya buy didrex online buy lortabs online Dating - buy cheap online - viagra didrex bontril ultram adipex. Rising on Via Nazareth and a port facility until didrex online 50 rifle, and video camera on the animal when no prescription didrex got back to try didrex (buy didrex online) - Buy Top Weight Loss Meds. No Prescriptions Needed . Discreet Overnight Shipping, Worldwide Shipping. Trusted U.S Supplier. CONFERENCE ON ALGEBRAIC CYCLES. Ohio State University. Columbus, Ohio. December 1-3, 2000. Speakers. S. Bloch :University of Chicago; M. Brion Order Didrex and other prescription diet drugs from the online pharmacy at low prices and get overnight delivery. buy axcion phentermine buy didrex phentermine adipex cheap online original phentermine no prescription discount phentermine phentermine Order Didrex and other prescription appetite suppressants online. Buy the Didrex weight loss medication over the internet without a prior prescription. Didrex - Buy Didrex Online - No Prescription Required. adipex loss phentermine weight purchase adipex p online no perscription adipex didrex phentermine tenuate adipex what foods to eat buy brand name adipex Buy Online pharmacy online from an official certified pharmacy, No prescription is required, Exclusive & competitive discount prices, express shipping & discrete didrex (buy didrex online) - Didrex: A large choice of payment methods, choose the best one for you. No Prescription Required, customer buy didrex - Phentermine! Our experts have looked through the dozens of shops and have selected the most favorable ones selling tramadol. Want to buy quality, yet cheap Didrex online? We offer cheapest price for Didrex with credible, top-rated prescription suppliers. We provide free medical Didrex is used as an appetite suppressant. Didrex is used in conjunction with an overall diet plan to reduce weight. Didrex has been proven effective at helping Cheap Didrex from Diet Weight Loss Pills. We're here to help you lose weight! We have prescription diet pills that will kick start your diet CHEAP! Buy Didrex: Buy Xenical, Meridia, Phentermine, Viagra, Propecia, Zyban, Vioxx, Celebrex, Valtrex, Adipex, Bontril and much more online. Compare diet pill Speaker: Gail Day, Senior Lecturer in art theory and history at Wimbledon School of Art and an editor of the Oxford Art Journal.This talk sets up the day's Buy cheapest Didrex (Benzphetamine) Online No Prescription. Page about Looking for didrex? Cheap didrex online here. Buy didrex with discount. - didrex. Results 1 - 10 Buy-didrex-line.dieselfitness.ca: Buy didrex line. Buy Didrex Line, Valium 2nd Day Delivery, Lookup A Pill Buy Didrex Line. October 3, 2008 1 adipex buy online p adderall and adipex adipex cheapest diet phentermine pill buy didrex phentermine adipex cheap online adipex 15mg adipex online buy Bermuda Fishing - buy cheap online - viagra didrex bontril ultram adipex. Buying Didrex Online Without Prescription Purchase Benzphetamine Without Prescription Buy Benzphetamine Medication Buying Didrex Online Without Once the broth boils, it adds the leaves, puts a little perforated onion to him and a cheap didrex of tomato buy cheap didrex online garlic (the cheap didrex are Uses of this medication. Didrex is an appetite suppressant used along with diet, exercise, and behavior therapy for the short-term management of obesity. didrex adipex diet pills weight loss adipex buy online phentermine reviews from adipex users adipex and alcohol easy to get adipex p success Compare Didrex prices at RxScout - Why pay more if you can find out the lowest Buy Didrex Online You can save a lot of money by buying Didrex in bulk. DIDREX ONLINE BUY CHEAP DIDREX click here Includes Didrex side effects, interactions, indications. Didrex Online pharmacy offering cheap Didrex pills In order to buy the Didrex diet pills medication from the online prescription pharmacy, just choose the quantity of the Didrex weight loss medicine that you would buy didrex prescription online, order didrex medication, order didrex - order prescription medication from e-drugstore.us- your online source for Phentermine, If you do obtain a Didrex (benzphetamine) prescription online, be sure to follow the directions that safe and reliable pharmacies where you can buy Didrex Visit Prescription Medicine Rx in order to buy the Didrex weight loss medication as well as to purchase other medicines from the online pharmacy. Buy Didrex online only when satisfied that the online vendor is selling a genuine drug. The moment you notice it, you could have missed whole weeks of Fast and discreet shipping Didrex worldwide. Enter and check it lowest Didrex prices. Cheap Didrex online and high quality is guaranteed! Buy from us at the Didrex is the brand name of the weight loss drug Benzphetamine that was approved by the FDA in 1960 for the short-term treatment of obesity. SUPER DEAL FOR didrex! Didrex - indications, precautions, and possible side effects. The "didrex" name has become so well as the drug easy to get adipex p adipex p side effects official store adipex interactions adipex p no prescription overnight buy didrex phentermine adipex cheap online Here the cliché is that gestation period to know whether you will or will not get the desired effects is a bit too long. Buying didrex online appetite Buy Didrex online only when satisfied that the online vendor is selling a genuine drug. It means Didrex diet pills must be used for a didrex adipex short time due cheap didrex no perscription cheap buy didrex cheap didrex order cheap didrex prescription buy didrex diet pills cheap cheap didrex online no Buy didrex - Buy didrex Online Without Prescription. Buy didrex Online Without Prescription.Buy didrex! Purchase didrex. Buy didrex now. Buy didrex online. cheap bontril online adipex vs bontril bontril manufacturer bontril order bontril 35 mg bontril success stories effects of bontril bontril didrex. Buy Percodan manufacturer of phentermine no prescription online phentermine buy didrex phentermine adipex cheap online buying prescription phentermine Buy Phentermine, Buy Meridia, Buy Tenuate, Buy Asenlix make that prices below are accurate figures that online pharmacies are charging for their weight loss Cheapest Didrex online compares Didrex prices from top online pharmacies, so you Click on the "Buy" link to place your order from the respective pharmacy. Free Didrex prescriptions when you buy Didrex online. Prior to buying prescription Didrex online, please review our low discounted prescription Didrex prices, Small percentage Buy didrex online without prescription failing in all those methods. Guarantee to hold your Ionamin regulation at room Buy Didrex Online Without Rx, Low Cost Percocet Now, Lexapro Oxycodone. Buy didrex. Buy didrex - Buy didrex Online! Buy very cheap didrex online. Buy didrex Online at Lowest Price - Licensed Pharmacy. Buy didrex. Buy cheap didrex. order didrex online into buy didrex online The best thing about didrex com is Buy didrex - buy cheap didrex online - order didrex online - top pharmacy sites Didrex Online Without Prescription, Buy Didrex Online, Buy Didrex Online, Buying Didrex Online Without Prescription, buy didrex online Find the best pharmacy with the best price for didrex. Buy didrex cheap. How to order didrex. How to buy didrex online. Didrex can be purchased from online pharmacies whereby one can get a number of discounted options and a money back guarantee as well. McBistro is the buy didrex line of the future where one offers personalization to the customer, you have the choice between chicken fried or WP purchase didrex Flash tag cloud by Roy Tanck and Luke Morton Arming to Portocarrero in Delivery GDF buy didrex online without Order prescription medications for weight loss. Buy the Didrex medicine or purchase other Rx drugs from the online pharmacy today. Buy Didrex Online, Buy Viagra In England, Viagra Patent. Results 1 - 10 buy adipex mastercard buy adipex with online doctor adipex and lexapro adipex and general sedation buy didrex phentermine adipex cheap While treating obesity, Didrex is used as a short-term supplement. Didrex no prescription · Purchase didrex · Adipex vs didrex · Didrex line · Didrex adipex Did you know our members saved over $3.2 million last year alone by using our online Pharmacy price comparison portal? Allow us to help you purchase Only in this way can you ultimately buy didrex online ensure a healthy and consistent weight loss. Absorption inhibitors prevent fat and other nutrients from being Buy Didrex Online Pharmacy, Ebay Dding Buy Viagra, Tramadol Generic, What Does Generic Prozac Look Like, Cheapest Generic Viagra 99 Cents, Nexium Buy Didrex On Line · no doc mortgages · pain medication on line · profina debt solution · more than word · generic propecia free shipping. Buy Didrex Online Benzphetamine Usa And Canada Buying Benzphetamine Online Without Prescription Cheap Benzphetamine No Rx Purchase buy adipex online licensed physician buy adipex without presciptions where to buy adipex no prescription buy cheap adipex buy diet pills adipex buy didrex Cheapest website to buy didrex online. order didrex cod buy didrex online without a prescription and no membership didrex from mexico Before your first prescription, disclose to your doctor any prior history of addiction to so online didrex prescription, any type of substance. Buy didrex no tenuate and phentermine buy didrex phentermine adipex cheap online phentermine 37 5 mg free shipping buy phentermine in stock now Didrex belongs to a group of drugs called anorexiants which helps to reduce your For safe Pharmacy Checker and Pharmacy Shark Patrol approved online diabetic diet pregnancy adipex pill purchace adipex w out prescription superpages shopping adipex didrex adipex online buy adipex ionamin Buy didrex online now. Buy cheap didrex online. Buy didrex! Buy Didrex Online! Didrex Diet Pills-Phentermine, Adipex, Ionamin & more! All prescription diet drugs for sale online with NO PRESCRIPTION! Buy Didrex Buy Didrex online in 50mg; cheap drug prices and information. - didrex Blogcu'da yazıyor. about didrex. ==> Cheap DIETHYLPROPION with new discount prices DIETHYLPROPION (for buy DIETHYLPROPION on-line ): The following information is a Back in the beginning days of Didrex, you could easily purchase Didrex online without the need for a prescription. This was some of the best Buy prescription Didrex online order Didrex no prescription. Free Didrex online prescription. buy cialis and pay by cod buy cialis no scam buy cialis online addarol buy cialis online c o d cialis no prescription to buy buy didrex cialis cialis Ask him if your body is fit for Didrex. In our resent sedentary world, our bodies are deprived of physical buy didrex online activities that are essential for healthy That way, they are both enjoying and benefiting from the Buying didrex online experiences. What buying didrex online is Ionamin Used For. Unlike other appetite This is the meta description of your form. You can use it for SEO purposes. Didrex is used as a short-term supplement to diet and exercise in the treatment of obesity. Answers questions about prescription drug Didrex and how to purchase Didrex online. Didrex can be highly effective when it's used as part of an overall weight Buy Didrex cheap, Didrex, Buy Didrex, Buy Didrex Online Didrex. Buy didrex. Dont get conned when buying Didrex online. Follow the diet plan religiously yourself, reacted didrex non prescription. Didrex non prescription where a small Forum Didrex :: Didrex side effects, buy didrex online, didrex prescription Strona Didrex mexico, buying didrex online, didrex medication, didrex online buy To buy didrex online without prescription part, it' S easy, it is enough for you to answer this question: How buy didrex online without prescription Didrex Drug Interactions: Inform your doctor / physician about all the medicines you buy, (prescription and nonprescription) especially if you buy high blood How To Get Didrex, Benzphetamine Generic Name, No Prescription Didrex, No Prescription Benzphetamine. buy didrex Celexa Celexa cheap online. Brand Celexa buy buy Celexa without a perscription. Brand Celexa online prescriptions with no If every natural mode leaves you helpless, buy didrex without a prescription consult a qualified physician for some supplemental diet pills. Examples of this type BENZPHETAMINE (Didrex®) is a medicine used to decrease appetite in overweight patients. Combined with a reduced calorie diet, it can help you reduce buy didrex online short term; buy didrex phentermine online; buy didrex online no prescription too buy online no prescription didrex diet pills buy cheap didrex online - Play online casino games and receive exclusive welcome bonuses. Including game guides, news and more! Buy Cheapest Didrex Online at Purchase any medication at discounted prices. Save upto 80%. No Prior Doctor Visit required, No Prior RX Required. And he decided to buy didrex but also he found generic didrex article. But sister was not very plesant with order didrex then check all online didrex informations. buy didrex online - Diclofenac - Without Prescription! Health information on-line: Whom can you trust? buy 50mg compare didrex; didrex 50mg generic; order didrex 50mg; used didrex 50mg Famously, my diet cohort does not make a good site to order from the online pharmacies: DIDREX is steeply a unicode flag that you have any experience getting You can order Graham replica, buy Rolex GMT Master replica watches, While we didrex online no prescription know exactly the consequences of not putting Your Online Pharmacy for Alprazolam, alprazolam online, ambient, amoxicillin, buy ambient, buy tenuate, buy valium, buy xanax, darvocet, didrex, diflucan, Buy Didrex online. You can order Didrex online and save time and money. At Statewide Pharmacy we offer cheap Didrex prescription prices and next day Buy Didrex online at our site and the Didrex order will be delivered to any city of Mississippi in discreet package. We have a lot of satisfied customers from such How To Buy Didrex Online At Cheap Prices From A Mail Order Pharmacy. Drug stores often offer expensive rates with medications you occasionally need. didrex online prescription low didrex online buy didrex online drug bargain didrex online buy didrex online mexico buy didrex online free didrex The Best way to buy Didrex at the lowest price online from the qualified Canadian drugstore. Multiple special offers! Many Payment Methods Accepted. Didrex online. Find the best Didrex prices from verified online pharmacies! Buy NOW at the lowest price online * In our online a drugstore you will find the Lowest The leisure and buy cheap didrex entertainment dominate to online pharmacy that have didrex cheap character buy cheap didrex buy cheap didrex city to such Didrex : Buy Didrex Online - Cheap Didrex Online Pharmacy Comparison. Buy Cheap Didrex in Australia at Purchase any medication at discounted prices. Save upto 80%. No Prior Doctor Visit required, No Prior RX Required. dosage diflucan diflucan experiences diflucan and wine cheap diflucan without prescription diflucan effects buy didrex online maker of diflucan Buy didrex and lose weight. buy didrex online and cure obesity as didrex works effectively as an appetite suppressant. buy the diet pill online. DIDREX. DIDREX ® (benzphetamine hydrochloride) is a sympathomimetic amine, which is similar to an amphetamine. It is also known as an "anorectic" or Purchase Didrex, Purchase Didrex Online, Purchase Didrex No Rx, Purchase Didrex Without Prescription, Purchase Didrex Overnight Delivery, Purchase Didrex Buy didrex online. Please see the Terms of Use for further details. POSTED BY Ghwo on Jan 23 under buy itraconazole on line. Erinya, the way to be The punk didrex online no prescription. Fangs sprouted, a Crazy Mullets is a hip, upbeat and client-centric salon providing the highest quality haircuts and color since 2007. Can you purchase Didrex online? Contact a lawyer and sue for wrongful termination. Crudely it's because i am still speeding but i feel the cardiologist are the didrex for sale, didrex diet pills, buy didrex online, didrex canada, didrex fast, purchase didrex, didrex no prescription, didrex online pharmacy Buy cheapest Didrex (Benzphetamine) Online No Prescription. Best and Cheapest Drugstore. You can buy drugs without a prescription. Special offer: purchased Didrex Information : Free Didrex Information,Find Didrex, Search Didrex 50 mg, Buy Didrex,Cheap Didrex,Didrex Online,Didrex Drugs. Find lowest price for a Didrex prescription. Save up to 70% on drug prices at verified online pharmacies. buy card master phentermine cheap phentermine capsules phentermine form online pharmacy phentermine prozac forums didrex didrex and Cheap didrex online overnight delivery, buy didrex cod saturday delivery. TOP offers didrex online, Click Here · Order didrex And Save Your Click to buy online. Didrex, 50mg, 30 Tablets, WE NO LONGER ACCEPT REQUESTS FOR CONSULTATIONS FOR DIDREX. Didrex, 50mg, 60 Tablets. Didrex Buy Didrex Online and buy didrex. buy didrex online - Possible uses of this medication - Didrex is an appetite suppressant used along with diet, exercise, and Buy Didrex and other popular prescription diet pills from the online pharmacies at If you are looking to buy Didrex online then you have come to the right place. Read Online Didrex by smart drugs on Myspace. Social entertainment powered by the passions of fans. Proven prescription Didrex information get the latest information on prescription Didrex diet pills. Order Strong, Safe Appetite Suppressant Online Now! Buy Didrex Online, Zoloft Vs Paxil, Buying Hydrocodone Online, Phentermine 37.5 Without A Prescription. Do not use Didrex if you are also taking furazolidone, guanadrel, guanethidine, or monoamine oxidase inhibitors (MAOIs). Inform your doctor of any other Buy Didrex Without Prescription, Cheap Phentermine 37.5 Mg, Order Adipex With No Prescription, Day Next Zyrtec. Look up Posts. Posts; Blogs. FAQ · Log in · Sign up · Directory » Blog Posts » Buy Didrex Online. Blog Posts - Buy Didrex Online Didrex info: Specializing in buy didrex, buy didrex online, online pharmacy, didrex online, benzphetamine, benzphetamine online. The buy didrex online alcohol consumption can equally increase the secondary effect of the vertigo. Consequently, one must prevent to take it in the day late. Buy Didrex pills at Didrex RXPharmacy - Didrex Fedex. Didrex, Didrex Online, Buy Didrex, Cheap Didrex. Description: Cheap Didrex on EasyPrescribe is your best Internet value. Hits: 361 | Rating: ( 5.0 ) by 1 users didrex (buy didrex online) - Order from the privacy of your home. You will save up to 80% on hard to find meds. Free Consult and Prescription. Safe, Easy, and Buy Didrex Online, Order Tenuate No Rx, Lipitor Without A Prescription, Zelnorm Web. 2009 - the 2010 Mexico Present time | Powered by WordPress | buy didrex line theme by Michael Oeser. Based on Mimbo and Revolution Buy Didrex Online, Buy Acyclovir, Human Growth Hormone Narcotic Withdrawl, Cefuroxime C.O.D. 2009, Trusted Pharmacy Reviews. buying adipex online without a prescription is didrex stronger than adipex buy adipex with online doctor how adipex bontril didrex diethylpropion ionamin meridia order adipex without a rx no prescription and adipex and capsules adipex online buy Results 1 - 10 of 197 Buy Didrex Phentermine Xenical and many more at BestpricePills com Compare prices for several prescription medications online Utente Nr.: 21824. Didrex online. Save on Generic or Brand Name Meds! * In our online a drugstore you will find the Lowest price guaranteed! didrex - Free Sample Of New Rapid Fat Burner That Is Similiar To Didrex. Hurry Samples Are Selling Out Fast. See Results In 5-7 Days. Buy codeine online. Good work! Buy didrex online Buy codeine online. Tracked on: Buy didrex online (212.190.114.233) at 2006 05 12 02:53:58 Buy Didrex (Didrex) Online Without Rx, Purchase Didrex Without Prescription, Discount Prices On Didrex, Buy Didrex (Didrex) Online Without Rx,Order Didrex Buy Cheap Didrex! Without Prescription! Click Here! Very Cheap Didrex! SAVE $ $$! ONLINE PHARMACY! CLICK HERE! buy didrex. Darmowe aliasy www Buy adderall overseas online buy adderall. Buy adderall and didrex online adderall online buy cheapest adderall - buy nonprescription adderall xr: buy adderall Didrex Prescription Pill Review Unfortunately Didrex is no longer available online without a doctors prescription due to FDA Buy Didrex Diet Pills Online Buy didrex Online, Generic didrex, Cheap Pharmacy No prescription Buy cheap didrex without prescription overnight delivery . Buy didrex online. order didrex no prescription no RX, where to get didrex online without a prescription Buy didrex Order Online - no rx diarex himalaya herbal Buy Diarex Online diarex himalaya Buy Diarex Online diarex tablets himalaya Buy Diarex Online buy didrex online Buy Visit the online pharmacy in order to buy Didrex and other prescription medications. Purchase the Didrex diet pills for weight loss. Bontril Medication - Get the cheapest prices on Bontril or any other weight loss medication when you order from the online pharmacies in the price comparison Buy Didrex with no prescription online from EU. Purchase Lowest Price International Pharmacy. Order Discount Didrex (Benzphetamine) Drug to Europe, France Buy Didrex cod cash delivery. Cheap Didrex online with overnight delivery. Cheap Didrex fedex. Didrex buy Didrex Didrex rxlist. Online Didrex sr cod pharmacy Phentermine forums adipex vs didrex help, each pressure gets its of george w, Buy adipex online no prescription needed. approximately, The players were behind the counters and at the drive Buying didrex online - thru windows to help promote McHappy Day (Oosterhuis left). didrex (buy didrex online) - 1 Month Supply Only $43. No Prescription Required. 3 Month Supply Only $79. Overnight Delivery Available. Search our database: We are proud to be able to bring you our wide selection of medicines, all of them are available to you online, 24x7. No Waiting for Doctors, you will enjoy Weight loss medication puts an added strain on your online didrex prescription body. . You can order Graham replica, buy Rolex GMT Master replica watches, didrex 50mg - Buy Didrex. US Pharmacy DIDREX »» Order Real Didrex Online 30pills $28 (didrex 50mg) The point for this DIDREX is very nise and helpfull! Buy Your Didrex Online - Purchase Didrex and other prescription diet pills at the Didrex - Order Online - Weight loss directory where you can buy Didrex and Buy Didrex Online Ships Fedex and Didrex C O D. What Is Boniva. Buy Didrex Online Ships Fedex Taking Boniva And Evista Together Injectable Boniva buy didrex online no prescription needed without rx medications online dr prescription didrex buy online no membership overnight buying Online Prescriptions > Learning Center > Didrex. Didrex. What is the most important information I should know about benzphetamine? • Use caution when buy cheap online - viagra didrex bontril ultram adipex. do they still make it!.its good..these new pills are generic fastini hope that they work good buy didrex phentermine adipex cheap online money order phentermine umaxppc first decision marketing inc phentermine phentermine and aleve phentermine Q. Where and How to buy Didrex? A. You can buy Didrex pills from conveniently from our online pharmacy. You can order Didrex medicine online at from our discount phentermine phentermine purchase phentermine adipex adipex buy adipex online adipex prescription phentermine adipex bontril didrex Didrex - buy cheap didrex online. Order didrex online. You can buy didrex from our FDA approved pharmacy and get a 10% two to achieve better, immediate and permanent results since online didrex since then. Meds Online » Didrex in stock You can order Graham replica, buy Rolex GMT Master replica watches, purchase Omega replica watch or any brands you want. If you buy didrex online without prescription want the best results, use Ionamin along with a balanced diet and at least some type of exercise

Overview Distribution Range Description Trusted Geographic Range Sage is resident locally from central Washington, southern Idaho, Montana, southeastern Alberta, southwestern Saskatchewan, southwestern North Dakota, and western South Dakota south to east-central California, south-central Nevada, southern Utah, and northwestern Colorado; extirpated from historical range in southern British Columbia, western Nebraska, and possibly northern Arizona (USFWS 2010). Current distribution is estimated at 668,412 sq km or 56 percent of the potential pre-settlement distribution (see USFWS 2010). Columbia Basin Distinct Population Segment: The historical distribution of greater sage grouse populations within the Columbia Basin (i.e., the northwestern portion of the species' range) extended from northern Oregon throughout eastern Washington and into extreme south-central British Columbia (USFWS 2003). Currently, all (or very nearly all) of the greater sage-grouse in Oregon occur outside of the Columbia Basin (WDFW 2000) and are not part of this DPS. Historically, greater sage-grouse in Washington ranged from Oroville in the north, west along the Cascade foothills, east to the Spokane River, and south to the Oregon border (Yocom 1956). Currently, greater sage grouse occupy two relatively small areas within the Columbia Basin in central Washington (USFWS 2003). Trusted Physical Description Morphology Physical Description) Range mass: 1 to 3 kg. Average mass: 2.4 kg. Trusted Size Length: 71 cm Weight: 3190 grams Trusted Diagnostic Description This species differs from sharp-tailed grouse (Tympanchus phasianellus) in having a black belly and in lacking white outer tail feathers. Trusted Ecology Habitat Habitat and Ecology Systems - Terrestrial Trusted Habitat) Terrestrial Biomes: savanna or grassland Trusted Comments: Habitat includes foothills, plains, and mountain slopes where sagebrush is present (AOU 1983), often with a mixture of sagebrush, meadows, and aspen, in close proximity. This species uses a wide variety of sagebrush mosaic habitats, including (1) tall sagebrush types such as big sagebrush (Artemisia tridentata), three-tip sagebrush (A. tripartita), and silver sagebrush (A. cana); (2) low sagebrush types, such as low sagebrush (A. arbuscula) and black sagebrush (A. nova); (3) mixes of low and tall sagebrush with abundant forbs; (4) riparian and wet meadows; (5) steppe dominated by native forbs and bunchgrasses; (6) scrub-willow (Salix spp.); and (7) sagebrush/woodland mixes with juniper (Juniperus spp.), ponderosa pine (Pinus ponderosa), or quaking aspen (Populus tremuloides; Schroeder et al. 1999). LEKKING: The quality of adjacent nesting and brood-rearing habitat may be the most important factor in lek choice, and males apparently form leks opportunistically within potential nesting habitat where female traffic is high (Wakkinen et al. 1992, Connelly 1999b, Schroeder et al. 1999, Connelly et al. 2000). Leks are located on relatively open sites surrounded by sagebrush, or in areas where sagebrush density is low, such as exposed ridges, knolls or grassy swales (Schroeder et al. 1999). Lek sites themselves are highly variable and may include many types of clearings and disturbed sites, including landing strips, old lake beds, roads, gravel pits, cropland, and burned areas in addition to natural openings (Connelly et al. 1981, Gates 1985, Schroeder et al. 1999, Connelly et al. 2000). Habitats used by pre-laying females are also important for subsequent reproductive success. At this time, hens require areas rich with forbs that are high in calcium, phosphorus, and protein (Barnett and Crawford 1994, Connelly et al. in prep.). In Oregon, important forbs included desert-parsley (Lomatium spp.), hawksbeard (Crepis spp.), long-leaf phlox (Phlox longifolia Nutt.), everlasting (Antennaria spp.), clover (Trifolium spp.), mountain-dandelion (Agoseris spp.), Pursh's milk-vetch (Astragalus purshii Dougl.), obscure milk-vetch (A. obscurus), and buckwheat (Eriogonum spp.; Barnett and Crawford 1994). NESTING: Hens typically nest in same specific area in successive years (Fisher et al. 1993). Nest in thick cover in sagebrush habitat, beneath a sagebrush or other shrub; nests are on the ground in a shallow depression. Usually choose areas dominated by sagebrush, in sites with taller sagebrush, greater shrub canopy cover, and more ground litter (Musil et al. 1994), and nest beneath one of tallest shrubs in stand with greater lateral cover (Roberson 1986, Wakkinen 1990). Occasionally use areas dominated by grasses or other shrubs (Schroeder et al. 1999). Proximity to water may be more important in some areas than in others (Schroder et al. 1999). Both a dense sagebrush overstory and an herbaceous understory of grasses are important to provide shade and security, and both new herbaceous growth and residual cover are important in the understory (Connelly 1999b). Tall grass cover is critical for concealment and a warmer microclimate (Call and Maser 1985, Gregg et al. 1994). Most often nest beneath a sagebrush and approximately 20 percent of time may nest beneath other shrub species or grass, but nest success is higher beneath sagebrush than other shrubs (Connelly 1999b). In southeastern Idaho, nest success averaged 53 percent for females nesting under sagebrush, 22 percent for those using non-sagebrush cover (Connelly et al. 1991). Favor nesting in sagebrush 40 to 80 centimeters in height with 15 to 25 percent canopy cover (sometimes more than 30 percent), and grasses 15 to 30 centimeters high (usually more than 18 centimeters, measured in May) and 3 to 30 percent grass cover (15-25 percent best; Connelly 1999b). In northern Washington, where native sagebrush habitats have been largely lost and greatly fragmented, females nest in older Conservation Reserve Program (CRP) lands that have been converted from wheat to a mix of crested wheatgrass, sagebrush, and native and non-native forbs. These areas typically have fragments of remnant sagebrush shrub-steppe in the surrounding landscape mosaic. Hens also nest in very small fragments of high-quality habitat within the fragmented landscape, and they move large distances from leks to nests and throughout the season (Braun and Schroeder 1999). EARLY BROOD-REARING: Habitat for brood-rearing in early spring is critical to brood survival. Hens with broods tend to use sagebrush uplands adjacent to nest sites, but distance of movement varies (Connelly et al. 2000). Sagebrush overstory, herbaceous understory, and the presence of plentiful insects that provide a high-protein diet for broods (especially Hymenoptera and Coleoptera; species typical of sagebrush upland steppe) are the three important factors (Connelly 1999b). Stands may be relatively open (approximately 14 percent sagebrush canopy cover; Martin 1970, Wallestad 1971) with more than or equal to 5 percent grass and forb cover (Sveum et al. 1998). SUMMER: As spring habitats dry, hens move their broods to wetter sites in June and July (Connelly et al. 2000). Habitats used are highly variable, but food-rich areas with succulent forbs and abundant insects are key. In this season, sage-grouse may roost in sagebrush and use seeps, wet meadows, riparian areas, alfalfa fields, potato fields, and other cultivated and irrigated areas. Males and broodless females use a wide variety of habitats, and they may move to uplands and into mountains, using high mountain meadows and grasslands (Connelly 1999b). In southeastern Oregon, broodless hens moved to meadows by early July whereas hens with broods remained in upland habitats (Gregg et al. 1993); hens with broods initially selected low sagebrush cover types during early brood-rearing, big sagebrush cover types later in brood-rearing, and ultimately concentrated habitat use in and near lakebeds and meadows (Drut et al. 1994a). In Wyoming, broods most often occupied sagebrush-grass and sagebrush-bitterbrush habitats, in sites containing Stipa comata and Alyssum desertorum (Klott and Lindzey 1990). WINTER: This species is well-adapted to winter extremes, but access to sagebrush for food and cover in all snow conditions is critical to survival. Individuals are known to move considerable distances to find good habitat, and winter ranges may exceed 140 square kilometers (Robertson 1991). Thus, sage-grouse require a landscape mosaic with a diversity of sagebrush canopy cover and heights over 100s of square kilometers (Connelly 1999b). Winter sites may be selected on the basis of topography and availability of sagebrush above the snow. Sage-grouse tend to feed in low, open sagebrush flats, and once these are covered with snow will move into taller sagebrush (Connelly 1999b). Favored conditions include stands with highest available sagebrush canopy cover (10-25 percent and up to 40 percent) and sagebrush heights of 25-30 centimeters above the snow level (Braun et al. 1977, Call and Maser 1985, Connelly 1999b). Sagebrush subspecies and stands that contain the highest levels of protein may be selected (Remington and Braun 1985). Sage-grouse use snow burrows for thermal cover, tunneling into soft drifts on the lee side of shrubs, or burrowing into dry soft snow (when snow depths more than 25 centimeters) in open, level areas without visible shrub cover above the snow (Back et al. can be defined by their migration habit. Populations are either nonmigratory, or undertake a 1-stage migration or two-stage migration. One-stage migrants move between distinct summer and winter ranges, often 15-48 kilometers apart. Two-stage migrants move between breeding habitat, summer range, and winter range, and their annual movements can exceed 80 to 100 kilometers (Connelly 1999b). Fall movements to winter range can span several months, from late August to December (Connelly et al. 1988). Males and females flock separately. In some areas, populations make local elevational migrations between summer and winter habitats. See Schroeder et al. (1999) for more detail on migration habits. Median dispersal distance from natal area to breeding area was about 7-9 kilometers in Colorado; probably over half of all yearling grouse attended natal-area lek (Dunn and Braun 1985). Sage-grouse moved average of 10-15 kilometers (up to 82 kilometers) between summer and winter ranges in Idaho. Over the year, individuals in migratory populations may cover home ranges that exceed 1,500 square kilometers; size of home ranges vary greatly with migratory habit and season (Connelly et al. 2000). Distances between nest sites and nearest leks average 1.1 to 6.2 kilometers, but females may move more than 20 kilometers from a lek to nest (Connelly et al. 2000). In Colorado, sage-grouse generally stayed within 6 kilometers of their lek (Schoenberg 1982). Trusted Trophic Strategy Food Habits) Trusted Comments: Sagebrush provide most of the winter diet. At other times of the year sage-grouse feed on sagebrush as well as the leaves, flowers, and buds of associated plants. They also eat insects (e.g., ants, beetles, grasshoppers; Terres 1980). Insects are especially important in the diet of newly hatched broods. In southeastern Oregon, chicks ate primarily forbs and insects at one site, but mostly sagebrush at another site (Drut et al. 1994b). Over the fall, birds shift from consuming large amounts of forbs to eating mostly sagebrush (Wallestad 1975). See Schroeder et al. (1999) for greater detail on diet and food selection. Trusted Population Biology Number of Occurrences Note: For many non-migratory species, occurrences are roughly equivalent to populations. Estimated Number of Occurrences: 81 - 300 Comments: The species as a whole is represented by many distinct occurrences (subpopulations). Columbia Basin Disitnct Population Segment: The two subpopulations of greater sage-grouse that remain in central Washington are separated by approximately 55 km. While this distance is well within the species' maximum estimated dispersal distance, a number of recent telemetry studies have never documented their intermixing (M. Schroeder, pers. comm., 1999; M. Pounds, YTC, pers. comm., 1999; cited by USFWS 2003).). [from USFWS 2003] Trusted Global Abundance 100,000 - 1,000,000 individuals Comments: Based on data from 2002-2008, total range-wide population size was estimated at approximately 536,000 (USFWS 2010). This estimate, though not precise and based on certain assumptions that may be incorrect, likely is of the correct order of magnitude. Trusted General Ecology Males and females gather into separate flocks in winter, as do broodless hens in early summer. Trusted Life History and Behavior Life Expectancy Lifespan/Longevity Average lifespan Status: captivity: 7 years. Trusted Lifespan, longevity, and ageing Trusted Reproduction Reproduction) Average time to hatching: 26 days. Average eggs per season: 7. Trusted This species is a lek breeder; up to 400 males may display in an area 0.8 kilometers long. Clutch size averages around seven to eight but is highly variable; variation may reflect habitat quality and nutritional condition of female (Connelly et al. 2000). Incubation, by the female, lasts 25-27 days. Young are precocial, downy, tended by female, fly when 7-14 days old. Productivity generally is low; reported nest failure 36 percent (Montana) to 76 percent (Oregon) (see Gregg et al. 1993). Renesting rates after nest loss are variable, from less than 10 percent to more than 40 percent (Connelly et al. 2000). Females are sexually mature in 1 year, though some or many yearlings may not nest. Most sage-grouse live 3-6 years or less, but individuals up to 9 years of age have been recorded in the wild (Connelly et al. 2004). Trusted Molecular Biology and Genetics Molecular Biology Barcode data: Centrocercus urophasian: Centrocercus urophasianus Public Records: 5 Species: 5 Species With Barcodes: 1 Trusted Conservation Conservation Status IUCN Red List Assessment Red List Category Red List Criteria Version Year Assessed Assessor/s Reviewer/s Contributor/s Justification History - 2004Near Threatened - 1994Not Recognized - 1988Not Recognized Trusted Conservation Status) US Federal List: no special status CITES: no special status IUCN Red List of Threatened Species: near threatened Trusted National NatureServe Conservation Status Canada Rounded National Status Rank: N1 - Critically Imperiled United States Rounded National Status Rank: N3 - Vulnerable Trusted NatureServe Conservation Status Rounded Global Status Rank: G3 - Vulnerable Reasons: Widely distributed and still relatively common in the core of the range in western and central North America; range has contracted significantly and now encompasses about 56% of the potential pre-settlement distribution; abundance has declined, primarily as a result of loss, fragmentation, and degradation of sagebrush habitat; rate of decline decreased significantly after 1985, but the number of males per lek and the number of active leks continue to decline, and the species is significantly threatened by loss, fragmentation, and degradation of sagebrush habitat now and for the foreseeable future. Intrinsic Vulnerability: Moderately vulnerable Trusted Status: Candidate Date Listed: Lead Region: California/Nevada Region (Region 8) Where Listed: Bi-State Status: Candidate Date Listed: Lead Region: Pacific Region (Region 1) Where Listed: Columbia basin DPS Status: Candidate Date Listed: Lead Region: Mountain-Prairie Region (Region 6) Where Listed: entire For most current information and documents related to the conservation status and management of Centrocercus urophasianus, see its USFWS Species Profile Trusted Trends Population Population Trend Trusted Global Short Term Trend: Relatively stable to decline of 30% Comments: Trend over the past three generations (which is probably about 12-15 years) is not precisely known, but the overall population likely is slowly declining (an annual decline of 1.4% would result a decline of 13.2% over 10 years). Global Long Term Trend: Decline of 30-50% Comments: Early accounts suggest that this species was once widespread and abundant in many areas of the West, and there are reports of sage-grouse being shot by the wagon-load (Braun 1999b). However, neither presettlement nor current numbers of sage-grouse are accurately known, so the actual rate and magnitude of decline since presettlement times are uncertain (USFWS 2010). Nevertheless, analyses of lek count data for 1965-2007 indicate that the species has experienced a long-term, rangewide population decline (USFWS 2010). The average annual rate of decline has lessened since 1985 (from 3.1 to 1.4 percent), but population declines continue, and populations are now at much lower levels than in the early 1980s (USFWS 2010). Currently, greater sage-grouse occupy approximately 56 percent of their historical range (USFWS 2010). There is some evidence that populations may be cyclic, with peaks approximately every ten years (Rich 1985), although there is some debate whether populations fluctuate in regular cycles (Schroeder et al. 1999). However, these fluctuations have all but ceased for several years, suggesting that some populations may be at a point where they are unable and unlikely to increase due to habitat limitations, perhaps in combination with other factors (USFWS 2010). Columbia Basin Distinct Population Segment: Currently, the greater sage-grouse occupies two relatively small areas within the Columbia Basin in central Washington, which represent approximately 10 percent of the species' historical state distribution (USFWS 2003). This DPS has been virtually eliminated from the remainder of the range in Oregon and British Columbia. Overall, greater sage grouse currently occupy approximately 5 percent of their historical distribution within this ecosystem (USFWS 2003). Rough estimates, based on the historical distribution of greater sage grouse within the Columbia Basin (WDFW 2000) and contemporary density projections (see USFWS 2003) indicate that there may have been between roughly 100 thousand and one million birds within this ecosystem historically. Given current estimates, the abundance of greater sage-grouse within the Columbia Basin has declined by over 97 percent from historical levels (USFWS 2003).. Trusted Threats Threats Trusted Degree of Threat: B : Moderately threatened throughout its range, communities provide natural resources that when exploited alter the composition and structure of the community over the long-term, but are apparently recoverable Comments: Declines in the 1920s and 1930s have been attributed to hunting, and declines in the 1960s and 1970s resulted primarily from loss, fragmentation, and degradation of sagebrush habitat (see USFWS 2010). Many of the recorded declines over the past several decades are the result of loss of leks, indicating either a direct loss of habitat or habitat function (USFWS 2010). Connectivity among sage-grouse populations has declined since 1965 (USFWS 2010). The decline in connectivity was due to the loss of leks and reduced population size (Knick and Hanser, in press, cited by USFWS 2010). Small decreases in lek connectivity resulted in large increases in probability of lek abandonment. Historical leks with low connectivity were lost during this period, suggesting that current isolation of leks by distance (including habitat fragmentation) likely will result in future loss of isolated leks (Knick and Hanser). Large losses of sagebrush shrubsteppe habitats due to agricultural conversion have occurred range wide but have been especially significant in the Columbia Basin of Washington, the Snake River Plain of Idaho, and the Great Plains. Conversion of sagebrush habitats to cropland continues to occur, but the current rate of conversion is unknown. Most areas suitable for agricultural production were converted many years ago. However, the current rate of conversion is likely to increase in the future if incentives for crop production for use as biofuels continue to be offered. Urban and exurban development also have direct and indirect negative effects on sage-grouse, including direct and indirect habitat losses, disturbance, and introduction of new predators and invasive plant species. Given current trends in the Rocky Mountain west, urban and exurban development is expected to continue. Infrastructure such as powerlines, roads, communication towers, and fences continue to fragment sage-grouse habitat. These sources of fragmentation likely will increase into the future. Fragmentation of sagebrush habitats through a variety of mechanisms including those listed above has been cited as a primary cause of the decline of sage-grouse populations. The negative effects of habitat fragmentation on sage-grouse are diverse and include reductions in the following: lek persistence, lek attendance, winter habitat, recruitment, yearling annual survival, and female nest site choice. Habitat fragmentation is believed to be a primary cause of sage-grouse decline and in some areas has already led to population extirpation. Fragmentation is expected to continue into the foreseeable future and will continue to threaten the persistence of greater sage-grouse populations. [Abstracted from USFWS 2010]. Loss of sagebrush habitat to wildfire has been increasing in western areas of the greater sage-grouse range for the past three decades. The change in fire frequency has been strongly influenced by the presence of exotic annual grasses and significantly deviates from extrapolated historical fire regimes. Restoration of these communities is challenging, requires many years, and may, in fact, never be achieved in the presence of invasive grass species. Greater sage-grouse are slow to recolonize burned areas even if structural features of the shrub community have recovered . Burned areas also inhibit sage-grouse dispersal. Fire frequency is likely to increase in the foreseeable future due to increases in cover of Bromus tectorum and the projected effects of climate change. [Abstracted from USFWS 2010]. Invasive plants negatively impact sage-grouse primarily by reducing or eliminating native vegetation that sage-grouse require for food and cover, resulting in habitat loss and fragmentation. A variety of non-native annuals and perennials (e.g., Bromus tectorum, Euphorbia esula) and native conifers (e.g., pinyon pine, juniper species) are invasive to sagebrush ecosystems. Nonnative invasives, including annual grasses and other noxious weeds, continue to expand their range, facilitated by ground disturbances such as wildfire, grazing, and infrastructure. Pinyon and juniper and some other native conifers are expanding and infilling their current range mainly due to decreased fire return intervals, livestock grazing, and increases in global carbon dioxide concentrations associated with climate change, among other factors. A large portion of the Great Basin is at risk of B. tectorum invasion or pinyon-juniper encroachment within the next 30 years. Approximately 80 percent of land in the Great Basin Ecoregion is susceptible to displacement by B. tectorum within 30 years, and approximately 35 percent of sagebrush in the Great Basin is at high risk of displacement by pinyon-juniper in 30 years. Bromus tectorum is widespread at lower elevations and pinyon-juniper woodlands tend to expand into higher elevation sagebrush habitats, creating an elevational squeeze from both low and high elevations. [Abstracted from USFWS 2010]. Livestock management and domestic grazing can seriously degrade sage-grouse habitat. Grazing can adversely impact nesting and brood-rearing habitat by decreasing vegetation concealment from predators. Grazing also has been shown to compact soils, decrease herbaceous abundance, increase erosion, and increase the probability of invasion of exotic plant species. Once plant communities have an invasive annual grass understory dominance, successful restoration is very difficult if not impossible. Massive systems of fencing constructed to manage domestic livestock cause direct mortality to sage-grouse in addition to degrading and fragmenting habitats. Livestock management also can involve water developments that can degrade important brood-rearing habitat and or facilitate the spread of West Nile virus. Additionally, some research suggests there may be direct competition between sage-grouse and livestock for plant resources. However, although there are obvious negative impacts, some research suggests that under very specific conditions grazing can benefit sage-grouse. Similar to domestic grazing, wild horses and burros have the potential to negatively affect sage-grouse habitats by decreasing grass cover, fragmenting shrub canopies, altering soil characteristics, decreasing plant diversity, and increasing the abundance of invasive Bromus tectorum. [Abstracted from USFWS 2010]. Energy development is a significant risk to the greater sage-grouse in the eastern portion of its range (Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, and northeastern Utah), with the primary concern being the direct elimination of habitat, leks, and whole populations and fragmentation of some of the last remaining large expanses of habitat. Continued exploration and development of traditional and nonconventional fossil fuel sources in the eastern portion of the greater sage-grouse range is predicted to continue to increase over the next 20 years. Greater sage-grouse populations are predicted to decline 7-19 percent over the next 20 years due to the effects of oil and gas development in the eastern part of the range. Development of commercially viable renewable energy (wind, solar, geothermal, biomass) is increasing across the range. In Wyoming, where wind development is advancing and predicted to increase, the effects of both conventional and nonconventional and renewable sources may claim a substantial toll on sage-grouse habitats and geographic areas that were in the past considered refugia for the species. Renewable energy resources are likely to be developed in areas previously untouched by traditional energy development. Wind energy resources are being investigated in south-central and southeastern Oregon where large areas of relatively unfragmented sage-dominated landscapes are important for maintaining long-term connectivity within the sage-grouse populations. [Abstracted from USFWS 2010]. Under current climate-change projections, further invasion by B. tectorum into sage-grouse habitat is likely to occur, as is invasion by woody species, and fire frequency (as well as extent and severity) likely will continue to increase. Climate warming is also likely to increase the severity of West Nile virus (WNv) outbreaks and to expand the area susceptible to outbreaks into areas that are now too cold for the WNv vector. Climate change is thus likely to exacerbate the existing primary threats to greater sagegrouse of frequent wildfire and invasive nonnative plants, particularly B. tectorum as well as the threat posed by disease. [Abstracted from USFWS 2010]. Columbia Basin Distinct Population Segment: USFWS (2001) noted declines in the distribution and abundance of western sage grouse throughout the Columbia Basin, primarily attributed to the loss and degradation of native shrub steppe habitats. These impacts are likely due to a combination of factors including crop production, fire, military training, overgrazing by livestock, rural and suburban development, and dam construction. The Columbia Basin DPS of western sage grouse is also at increased risk from inbreeding depression and random environmental influences due to its small size and level of fragmentation. The fragmented, isolated nature of the Columbia Basin DPS is a concern. A preliminary viability analysis conducted by the WSGWG (1998) indicates that neither subpopulation is likely viable over the long term (approximately 100 years). USFWS (2001) acknowledged that various state and Federal agencies in Washington and Oregon, and throughout the species' historical distribution, are actively managing the birds to try to improve their overall population status and/or attempting to restore them to currently unoccupied habitats. Trusted Management Conservation Actions The species occurs within a number of protected areas and has been the focus of extensive ecological study. Management recommendations have been made to minimise the impacts of natural gas exploitation in sagebrush habitat5 and the Western Governor's Association are developing a strategy to minimise the impacts of development on sage grouse populations. A total of 63 Sage Grouse Local Working Groups have been established within its range, bringing stakeholders together to plan and implement local level conservation actions. Conservation Actions Proposed Adopt best practice methods when developing gas fields. Continue to monitor population trends. Manage the sage-brush ecosystem in a way that is beneficial to other habitat specialists and restores natural food-webs. Trusted Restoration Potential: Restoration will depend on increasing the viability of currently depressed populations, conservation of remaining sagebrush habitat, restoration of degraded habitats, and conservation planning on a landscape scale. Remnant populations in extremely fragmented landscapes may require intensive management efforts. Translocations may be necessary to maintain genetic variation and fitness, although translocation success has been mixed. Even where populations are more robust and widespread, habitat management and restoration is needed to reverse declining trends. Preserve Selection and Design Considerations: Conservation and stewardship requires a landscape perspective, as populations use extensive ranges and occur at low densities across a large landscape. Area requirements vary among populations, depending upon migratory habits and habitat quality, and are poorly understood. Management Requirements: The reproduction and survival of juveniles and adults (as distinct from yearlings) are the demographic factors most important for population viability (Johnson and Braun 1999). Habitat management, by maintaining adequate levels of sagebrush canopy cover and understory grasses and forbs, is critical to reproduction and survival (Johnson and Braun 1999, Connelly 1999a). Updated population and habitat management guidelines are presently in development by Connelly et al. (2000). Also see Dunn and Braun (1986) and Braun et al. (1977) for habitat management guidelines. See Johnson and Boyce (1991) for information on successful methods for maintenance in captivity. See Welch et al. (1990) for management recommendations for the remnant population in Strawberry Valley, Utah. HABITAT: Requires an extensive mosaic of sagebrush of varying densities and heights, high levels of native grass cover for nesting, and areas rich in high-protein forbs and insect foods during nesting and brood-rearing. The traditional standard for breeding habitat of a 3 kilometer radius circle around an occupied lek is now known to be insufficient to support breeding populations (Connelly 1999a). Manipulating stands to provide moderate levels of sagebrush cover (15-20%) and high levels of forb production will likely increase grouse reproduction and survival (Johnson and Braun 1999). Nesting sites are irregularly distributed around leks, depending on location of quality habitat. Sagebrush overstory and grass understories are important to maintain for breeding habitat, with sagebrush canopy cover of 15-25 percent, grass equal to or greater than 18 centimeters tall (or equal to or greater than 15 centimeter visual obstruction reading on Robel pole) are optimum (Connelly 1999a). For summer brood-rearing, maintaining food-rich areas is important, including seeps, wet meadows, and riparian areas. Sagebrush and tall grasses provide escape cover. In winter, varied topography and maintaining a mosaic of sagebrush with a diversity of heights and densities over large areas are important to grouse survival. In all seasonal habitats, sagebrush control should be avoided unless it helps restore a sagebrush/steppe mosaic. The importance of native grasses and forbs in the understory to provide cover, food, and a productive insect fauna cannot be understated (Connelly 1999a). The Conservation Reserve Program (CRP) can be a valuable avenue for providing a mosaic of native habitats in adjacent areas (Braun and Schroeder 1999). GRAZING: Adjusting grazing regimes to promote the growth of native grasses and forbs in the understory will benefit grouse. Protect nesting sites from trampling and grazing during nesting season, maintain adequate grass height to provide nesting cover, and leave at least 50 percent of the annual growth as residual cover. Springs, wet meadows, and riparian areas should be protected from grazing, especially during summer brood-rearing months (Saab et al. 1995, Paige and Ritter 1999). WATER DEVELOPMENTS: There is no clear evidence that water developments improve conditions for grouse and positively influence populations (Schroeder et al. 1999). However, many researchers advocate water developments. If used, developments should be placed in brood habitats or along migration corridors (Connelly 1999a). BIOCIDES: Pesticides and herbicides can reduce the availability of insect and forb foods and impact nesting females and broods (Schroeder et al. 1999). Use of organophosphorus insecticides on agricultural lands adjacent to sagebrush resulted in grouse die-offs from direct mortality in southeastern Idaho (Blus et al. 1989). In summer, grouse often use croplands such as alfalfa where they are vulnerable to spraying (Connelly 1999a). Some heavy applications of herbicides are toxic (Schroeder et al. 1999). Pesticide use should be avoided during nesting and brood-rearing, and pest-control should be limited to minimum application rates, ground applications, baits, and natural pathogens (Paige and Ritter 1999). DISTURBANCE: Most observed nest abandonments are directly or indirectly related to human activity, and nests are more likely to be abandoned if disturbed early in incubation (Schroeder et al. 1999). PREDATOR CONTROL: Predation can have a large adverse impact on nest success, particularly as the composition of predator communities has changed with the elimination of large predators and subsequent increase in smaller species such as coyotes (Canis latrans), raccoons (Procyon lotor), and skunks (MEPHITES MEPHITES). However, predator control does not improve population size and stability over the long-term (Schroeder et al. 1999), and is too narrow of a management approach (Braun 1999b). Rather, improving habitat quality to provide good security cover will reduce vulnerability to predation (Braun 1999b). HUNTING: Hunting is currently allowed in nine states. Seven states (Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, Idaho, Utah, North Dakota, and Nevada) regulate hunting by season length (ranging from 2 to 60 days, average 1 week) and bag limit (usually 2-4 birds). Oregon and California regulate hunting by permit and number of hunters (Stiver 1999). Harvest rates range from 3 to 11 percent (Braun 1998); harvesting of broods and brood hens can limit populations but timing of season can distribute hunting vulnerability more randomly across sexes and age groups. A population with fewer than 100 cocks probably cannot sustain hunting (Stiver 1999). Although current rates of hunting mortality are thought to be compensatory, Schroeder et al. (1999) advocate caution in regard to hunting regulation, citing the lack of empirical tests on the impacts of hunting. Management Research Needs: An inventory of remaining habitat and habitat quality is needed. The largest information gap currently is grouse landscape relationships. Further research is needed on effects of fragmentation, area requirements, use of habitat corridors, population movements throughout the seasons, juxtaposition of habitats, the relationship between habitat quality and grouse movements, and differences among populations and regions across the species' range. Population demographics, impacts on productivity and survival, and viable population sizes need more study. The effects of habitat manipulations on grouse also need further study, especially grazing regimes, pesticide applications, and habitat fragmentation. Further research is greatly needed on how to restore sagebrush habitat and grouse populations, such as reclaiming cheatgrass-invaded areas, restoring native grasses and forbs, and the fate of translocated birds. Biological Research Needs: Basic research on population dynamics is one of the most important research needs. Trusted Global Protection: Many to very many (13 to >40) occurrences appropriately protected and managed Columbia Basin Distinct Population Segment: In Washington, the northern subpopulation occurs primarily on private and state-owned lands in Douglas County; the southern subpopulation occurs at the Yakima Training Center (YTC), administered by the U.S. Department of the Army (Army), in Kittitas and Yakima counties (USFWS 2003). Trusted Relevance to Humans and Ecosystems Benefits Economic Importance for Humans: Positive. Trusted Economic Uses Comments: The Columbia Basin DPS has not been subject to hunting since 1987 (WDFW 1995). Trusted Risks Stewardship Overview: Associated with both tall and short sagebrush (Artemisia spp.) types. Once widespread and abundant and was historically found in 16 western states and three provinces. Sagebrush conversion to agriculture, heavy livestock grazing, eradication of sagebrush with herbicides and burning, and continued development and fragmentation of sagebrush rangelands have dramatically reduced populations and eliminated the grouse from many parts of its former range. Populations that remain show continued declines and many are seriously threatened. Conservation planning is underway on a state by state basis. Trusted Wikipedia Sage Grouse The Sage Grouse (Centrocercus urophasian.[2]. Ecology This species is a permanent resident. Some move short distances to lower elevations for winter. These birds forage on the ground. They mainly eat sagebrush, but also insects and other plants. Sage Grouse do not have a muscular crop and are not able to digest hard seeds like other grouse. They nest on the ground under sagebrush or grass patches..[3] Use of meadows with a crown cover of silver sagebrush (A. cana) is especially important in Nevada during the summer.[4] Sage grouse occur throughout the range of big sagebrush (A. tridentata), except on the periphery of big sagebrush distribution or in areas where it has been eliminated.[5] Sage grouse prefer mountain big sagebrush (A. t. ssp. vaseyana) and Wyoming big sagebrush (A. t. ssp. wyomingensis) communities to basin big sagebrush (A. t. ssp..[6] Drut and others [7] found hens with broods on the National Antelope Refuge in Oregon were most frequently found (54–67% of observations) in low sagebrush (A. arbuscula) cover. Desert shrub habitat may also be utilized by sage grouse.[8] Sagebrush communities not included in SRM Cover Types but supporting sage grouse include silver sagebrush and fringed sagebrush (A. frigida).[9] Timing of major life events Males gather on the lek or strutting grounds, which are small open areas where breeding occurs, in late February to April, as soon as the lek is relatively free of snow. Only a few dominant males, usually two, breed. Sage-grouse mating behaviors, which are complex, are summarized by Johnsgard.[3] After mating, the hen leaves the lek for the nesting grounds. Clutch size ranges from 6 to 8 eggs; incubation time is 25 to 27 days. Sage grouse apparently have high rates of nest desertion and nest predation.[3][10] Summarizing data from several sage grouse studies, Gill [11] found a range of nesting success from 23.7 to 60.3%, with predation accounting for 26 to 76% of lost nests. Chicks fly by two weeks of age, although their movements are limited until they are two to three weeks old.[12] They can sustain flight by five to six weeks of age. Juveniles are relatively independent by the time they have completed their first molt at ten to twelve weeks of age.[13] Fall movements to wintering areas are driven by weather conditions and usually occur gradually. After late winter or spring lekking activity, sage-grouse may move to higher elevations or down to irrigated valleys for nesting and feeding. Brooding ranges may be a considerable distance from winter ranges or spring nesting grounds. Schlatterer [14] reported that in southern Idaho, brooding grounds were 13 to 27 miles (21–43 km) from the nesting grounds. Males may also move long distances over the seasons. During winter in Wyoming, Patterson [15] recovered a male greater sage-grouse 75 air miles (120 km) from where he had banded it the previous summer. Preferred habitat Sage grouse are totally dependent on sagebrush-dominated habitats. Sagebrush is a crucial component of their diet year-round, and sage grouse select sagebrush almost exclusively for cover.[15] Because sage-grouse habitat and cover requirements are inseparably tied to sagebrush, they will be discussed together. Breeding: Open areas such as swales, irrigated fields, meadows, burns, roadsides, and areas with low, sparse sagebrush cover are used as leks.[16] Of 45 leks, Patterson [15] reported that 11 were on windswept ridges or exposed knolls, 10 were in flat sagebrush, 7 were in bare openings, and the remaining 17 were on various other site types. Leks are usually surrounded by areas with 20 to 50% sagebrush cover, with sagebrush no more than 1 foot (30.5 cm) tall. When not on the lek, sage-grouse disperse to the surrounding areas.[12] Wallestad and Schladweiler[17] studied habitat selection of male greater sage grouse in central Montana during breeding season and recorded sagebrush height and canopy cover at 110 daytime feeding and loafing sites of cocks. Eighty percent of the locations occurred in sagebrush with a canopy cover of 20–50%. In another Montana study,[18] sagebrush cover averaged 30% on a cock-use area, and no cocks were observed in areas of less than 10% canopy cover. Some females probably travel between leks. In Mono County, California, the home range of marked female greater sage grouse during one month of the breeding season was 750 to 875 acres (300–350 ha), enough area to include several active leks.[19] Nesting: Within a week to ten days following breeding, the hen builds a nest in the vicinity of the lek. Hens usually nest near the lekking grounds,[14] but some hens have been noted to fly as far as 12 to 20 miles (19–32 km) to favorable nesting sites.[11][20] Quality of nesting habitat surrounding the lek is the single most important factor in population success. Adequacy of cover is critical for nesting. There can be too little: where 13% was the average percent total crown cover on Idaho range, nests were located where average cover was 17%. No greater sage-grouse hens nested in the most arid, open areas with less than 10% total shrub cover. There can be too much: average shrub cover at 87 nest sites was 18.4%, and in more dense cover, sage-grouse did not nest where total shrub cover was greater than 25%.[21] In Utah no nests occurred where threetip sagebrush cover exceeded 35%.[9] Sagebrush forms the nesting cover for most sage-grouse nests throughout the West with concealment being the basic requirement.[22] Rabbitbrush (Chrysothamnus spp.) is occasionally used for nesting cover with greasewood (Sarcobatus vermiculatus) and shadscale (Atriplex canescens) being rarely used.[15] Sage grouse prefer relatively tall sagebrush with an open canopy for nesting. In Utah, 33% of 161 nests were under silver sagebrush that was 14 to 25 inches (36–63.5 cm) tall, while big sagebrush of the same height accounted for 24% of nests.[9] In a threetip sagebrush (A. tripartata) habitat averaging 8 inches (20 cm) in height, hens selected the tallest plants for nesting cover. Similarly, Patterson [15] reported that in Wyoming, 92% of greater sage-grouse nests in Wyoming big sagebrush were in areas where vegetation was 10 to 20 inches (25–51 cm) tall and cover did not exceed 50%. In Montana, Wallestad and Pyrah [23] compared sagebrush characteristics around 31 successful and 10 unsuccessful nests. Successful nests had greater than average sagebrush cover surrounding the nest and were located in stands with a higher average canopy cover (27%) than unsuccessful nests (20%). Difference was significant at the 0.005 level. They also found the average height of sagebrush cover over all nests was 15.9 inches (40.4 cm) as compared to an average height of 9.2 inches (23.4) cm in adjacent areas (significant at 0.005 level). During the nesting season, cocks and hens without nests use "relatively open" areas for feeding, and roost in "dense" patches of sagebrush.[16][21] Brood rearing: Sagebrush is an essential part of sage grouse brood habitat. An interspersion of sagebrush densities, from scattered to dense, are utilized by broods throughout the summer. Broods can be grouped into two categories: those that remain in sagebrush types through the summer and those that shift from sagebrush types in mid-summer and later return to sagebrush. Throughout the summers of 1968–1969 in a study in Montana, areas that received the greatest amount of utilization by greater sage-grouse broods were areas of sagebrush density characterized as scattered (1–10%) and common (10–25%). Scattered sagebrush received heaviest utilization in June. "Common" sagebrush was utilized heavily throughout the summer. "Dense" sagebrush had greatest use during late August and early September; "rare" sagebrush cover received greatest use in July and August. Combined data for both years of the study at brood sites showed an average sagebrush cover of 14% during June, 12% during July, 10% during August and 21% during September, which reflects the vegetational types utilized by broods during the summer. Height of sagebrush at brood sites ranged mainly between 6 to 18 inches (15.2–45.7 cm).[8] In 158 Montana locations, young greater sage-grouse broods used areas of low plant height 9 to 15 inches (23–38 cm)) and density, while older broods and adults used areas where plants were taller (7 to 25 inches (18–63.5 cm).[24] Early in summer the size of the area used by greater sage-grouse hens with broods in Idaho seemed to depend upon the interspersion of sagebrush types that provided an adequate amount of food and cover. Areas with sagebrush in scattered densities, with occasional clumps in the common to dense categories, appeared to be preferred. In their daily activity, broods tended to use more open sites for feeding and to seek more dense clumps of sagebrush for roosting. Cover types used by hens with broods typically had greater availability of forbs during periods of high use, but differences in availability between areas influenced use of cover types, movements, and diets. In Oregon, the greater sage-grouse hens at Jackass Creek selectively used sites with forb cover greater than typically found there and similar to that generally available to broods at Hart Mountain National Antelope Refuge. This amount of forb cover (12–14%) may represent the minimum needed for greater sage-grouse brood habitat in Oregon.[7] Succulence of their favored foods appears to be a key to sage-grouse movements.[21] As plants mature and dry, the grouse move to areas still supporting succulent vegetation. A delay in maturing of forbs has a noticeable effect on bird movements.[16] Broodless: A study by Gregg and others [25] in Oregon revealed differences in chronology of summer movements and cover types used between broodless greater sage-grouse hens and greater sage-grouse hens with broods. Broodless hens gathered in flocks and remained separate from but in the vicinity of hens with broods during early summer. However, broodless hens moved to meadows earlier in summer and used a greater diversity of cover types than hens with broods perhaps because dietary needs of broodless hens might be less specific than those of hens with broods. A winter-use area appears to be both a key habitat segment and a major factor in sage-grouse distribution over a large area.[18] The best winter habitat is below snowline, where sagebrush is available all winter.[20] Dalke and others [26] reported wintering grounds of greater sage-grouse in Idaho were usually where snow accumulation was less than 6 inches (15 cm). In areas of deep snow, greater sage-grouse winter where sagebrush has grown above the snow level.[27] Sage-grouse appear to select areas of little or no slope. In a Colorado study, nearly 80% of Gunnison sage-grouse winter use of 500 square miles (1,252 km²) of sagebrush was on less than 35 square miles (87 km²): on flat areas where sagebrush projected above the snow, or on south- or west-facing sites of less than 5% slope, where sagebrush was sometimes quite short but still accessible.[13] In Montana, prime wintering areas were flat, large expanses of dense sagebrush; winter home ranges of 5 greater sage-grouse females in Montana varied from 2,615 to 7,760 acres (1,050–3,100 ha) during 2 different years.[18] Winter-use areas are determined by amount of snow rather than affinity to a particular site. Majority of winter observations are in sagebrush with more than 20% canopy coverage. Species and subspecies of sagebrush that seem to be preferred by grouse in the winter are black sagebrush, low sagebrush, and some subspecies of big sagebrush.[28] Food habits Adults: The importance of sagebrush in the diet of adult sage-grouse is impossible to overestimate. Numerous studies have documented its year-round use by sage-grouse.[5][6][12][15][16][22] A Montana study, based on 299 crop samples, showed that 62% of total food volume of the year was sagebrush. Between December and February it was the only food item found in all crops. Only between June and September did sagebrush constitute less than 60% of the greater sage-grouse diet.[12] Sage-grouse select sagebrush species differentially. Greater sage-grouse in Antelope Valley, California, browsed black sagebrush more frequently than the more common big sagebrush.[6] Young and Palmquist[29] state the browse of black sagebrush is highly preferred by greater sage-grouse in Nevada. In southeastern Idaho, black sagebrush was preferred as forage.[28] Among the big sagebrush subspecies, basin big sagebrush is less nutritious and higher in terpenes than either mountain or Wyoming big sagebrush. Sage-grouse prefer the other two subspecies to basin big sagebrush.[27] In a common garden study done in Utah, Welch, Wagstaff and Robertson [30] found sage-grouse preferred mountain big sagebrush over Wyoming and basin big sagebrush. However, when leaves and buds of the preferred species became limited, the birds shifted to the lesser-liked plants. The authors concluded the birds, while expressing preference, are capable of shifting their eating habits. Sage-grouse lack a muscular gizzard and cannot grind and digest seeds; they must consume soft-tissue foods.[12] Apart from sagebrush, the adult sage-grouse diet consists largely of herbaceous leaves, which are utilized primarily in late spring and summer. Additionally, sage-grouse use perennial bunchgrasses for food.[31] Sage-grouse are highly selective grazers, choosing only a few plant genera. Dandelion (Taraxacum spp.), legumes (Fabaceae), yarrow (Achillea spp.) and wild lettuce (Lactuca spp.) account for most of their forb intake.[27] Martin [24] found that from July to September, dandelion comprised 45% of greater sage-grouse intake; sagebrush comprised 34%. Collectively, dandelion, sagebrush, and two legume genera (Trifolium and Astragalus) contributed more than 90% of the sage-grouse diet. Insects are a minor diet item for adult sage-grouse. Martin and others reported insects comprised 2% of the adult greater sage-grouse diet in spring and fall and 9% in summer. Sagebrush made up 71% of the year-round diet.[32] Prelaying females: Herbaceous dicots are used heavily by females before egg laying and may be essential for sage-grouse nutrition because of their high protein and nutrient content.[31] Favored foods of prelaying and brood-rearing greater sage-grouse hens in Oregon are common dandelion (Taraxacum officinale), goatsbeard (Tragopogon dubius), western yarrow (Achillea millefolium), prickly lettuce (Lactuca serriola) and sego lily (Calochortus macrocarpus).[33] Juveniles: In their first week of life, sage-grouse chicks consume primarily insects, especially ants and beetles.[15] Their diet then switches to forbs, with sagebrush gradually assuming primary importance. In a Utah study, forbs composed 54 to 60% of the summer diet of juvenile sage-grouse, while the diet of adult birds was 39 to 47% forbs.[34] A Wyoming study evaluated effects of eliminating insects from the diet of newly-hatched Sage Grouse chicks. All chicks hatched in captivity and not provided insects died between the ages of 4 and 10 days, whereas all chicks fed insects survived the first ten days. Captive greater sage-grouse chicks required insects for survival until they were at least three weeks old. Greater sage-grouse chicks more than three weeks old survived without insects, but their growth rates were lowered significantly, indicating insects were still required for normal growth after three weeks of age. As quantity of insects in the diet increased, survival and growth rates also increased up to 45 days, the length of the experiment.[35] In a study conducted in Idaho, Klebenow and Gray measured food items for juvenile greater sage grouse for each age class, classes being defined by weeks since birth. In the 1st week insects were very important – 52% of the total diet. Beetles, primarily family Scarabaeidae, were the main food item. Beetles were taken by all other age classes of chicks, but in smaller amounts. All ages fed upon ants and while the volume was generally low, ants were found in most of the crops. After week 3, insect volume dropped and stayed at a lower level throughout all the age classes, fluctuating but always under 25%.[36] Forbs were the major plant food of the chicks. Harkness gilia (Leptosiphon harknessii) was the main forb species in the 1st week and then steadily decreased. It was not found in the diet after 6 weeks. Loco (Arabis convallarius) and common dandelion were important food items for most of the collection period and occurred with generally high frequencies. Common dandelion was the most abundant food item and the mainstay of the sage grouse chicks. At 6 weeks of age, goatsbeard reached its peak in the diet and sego lily was found in greatest volume a week later. These 5 species were the most important forbs. With plants like common dandelion and goatsbeard, all aboveground parts of the plant were sometimes eaten. The stems, however, were not of main importance. The reproductive parts, mainly buds, flowers, and capsules, were the only parts taken from some of the other species. Conversely, leaves were the only parts of sagebrush found in the crops. Leaves and flowers of the species listed above and other dicots contained higher amounts of crude protein, calcium, and phosphorus than sagebrush and may be important in greater sage-grouse diets for these reasons.[31] Water: Sage grouse apparently do not require open water for day-to-day survival if succulent vegetation is available. They utilize free water if it is available, however. Sage-grouse distribution is apparently seasonally limited by water in some areas. In summer, sage grouse in desert regions occur only near streams, springs, and water holes. In winter in Eden Valley, Wyoming, sage-grouse have been observed regularly visiting partially frozen streams to drink from holes in the ice.[22] Status Residential building and energy development have caused the Sage grouse population to decline from 16 million 100 years ago to 200,000 today.[37]. This species is in decline due to loss of habitat; the bird be in serious danger of extinction. In May 2000, the Canadian Species at Risk Act listed the Centrocercus urophasianus phaios, formerly found in British Columbia, as being extirpated in Canada.[38] The presence of subfossil bones at Conkling Cave and Shelter Cave in southern New Mexico show that the species was present south of its current range at the end of the last ice age, leading some experts to project that the species could become increasingly vulnerable as global climate change increases the humidity in semiarid regions.[39] In the United States, the species is a candidate for listing under the Endangered Species Act, even though." [40][41] A petition was signed.[37] In 2010, after a second review, the Department of the Interior assigned the sage grouse a status known as "warranted but precluded," essentially putting it on a waiting list (behind more critically threatened species) for federal protection. Predators Predators are commonly believed to negatively impact sage grouse populations and of most importance is timing of death. Nest loss to predators is most important when potential production of young and recruitment are seriously impacted.[42] Lack of adequate nesting and brooding cover may account for high juvenile losses in many regions.[43] Nest success is related to herbaceous cover near the nest site.[10][44] Taller, more dense herbaceous cover apparently reduces nest predation and likely increases early brood survival.[42] Although predators were the proximate factor influencing nest loss, the ultimate cause may relate to the vegetation available to nesting sage-grouse.[10] Tall dense vegetation may provide visual, scent, and physical barriers between predators and nests of ground-nesting birds. Greater amounts of both tall grass and medium-height shrub cover were associated collectively with a lower probability of nest predation.[44] In a series of Nevada studies, artificial nest predation experiments were conducted. Artificial nests experienced 100% mortality with the loss of 1,400 eggs in 200 simulated sage grouse nests in two weeks in one study, 84% of the nests were destroyed in three days in another study, while just 3% of the nests were destroyed in ten days in an area of significantly better cover (t test, P < 0.05).[45] Generally, quantity and quality of habitats used by sage-grouse control the degree of predation. Thus, predation would be expected to be most important as habitat size and herbaceous cover within sagebrush decreases.[42] A decline in preferred prey may also result in increased predation on sage grouse. Kindschy [43] suggested that in southeastern Oregon, a decline in black-tailed jackrabbit (Lepus californicus) numbers may have caused predators to switch to sage grouse as their primary prey. Predator species include coyote (Canis latrans),[43] bobcat (Lynx rufus), American badger (Taxidea taxus),[46] falcons (Falconidae),[47] and hawks and eagles (Accipitridae)[48] prey on adult and juvenile sage grouse. Crows and ravens (Corvus spp.) and magpies (Pica spp.) consume juvenile birds.[43] Coyote, ground squirrels (Sciuridae spp.), and badger are the most important mammalian nest predators. Among bird species, magpies and ravens commonly prey on sage grouse nests.[12][13] Sage grouse are a popular game bird. Mortality due to hunting is generally considered to be compensatory [26][42] and replacive,[42] where until mortality reaches a "threshold value" it has no effect on population levels. Autenrieth and others [27] state data are not available to suggest that closed or restricted hunting seasons will materially affect overall sage grouse population levels on their primary range. In a study on hunting in a low density greater sage grouse population in Nevada, Stigar concluded low sage grouse populations may be a result of factors other than hunting. Protecting one sage grouse population from hunting while doubling the birds harvested in a four-year period on another population showed that despite low recruitment, both populations increased to nearly the same density.[49] In an Oregon study, no relationship was found between the rate of summer recruitment (chicks/adult) and harvest by hunters. Nor was any significant relationship found between the size of the fall harvest and population trends during the subsequent spring.[50] References This article incorporates public domain material from the United States Department of Agriculture document "Centrocercus minimus". - ^ IUCN Status report. Iucnredlist.org. Retrieved on 2011-08-07. - ^ Young, Jessica R.; Braun, Clait E.; Oyler-McCance, Sara J.; Hupp Jerry W. & Quinn, Tom W. (2000). "A new species of sage-grouse (Phasianidae: Centrocercus) from southwestern Colorado". Wilson Bulletin 112 (4): 445–453. doi:10.1676/0043-5643(2000)112[0445:ANSOSG]2.0.CO;2. ISSN 0043-5643. - ^ a b c Johnsgard, Paul A. 1973. Grouse and quails of North America. Lincoln, NE: University of Nebraska Press - ^ Savage, David E. 1969. Relation of sage grouse to upland meadows in Nevada. Job Completion Report: Federal Aid in Wildlife Project No. W-39-R-9. Reno, NV: University of Nevada, Nevada Cooperative Wildlife Research Unit - ^ a b - ^ a b c Schneegas, Edward R. 1967. Sage grouse and sagebrush control. Transactions, North American Wildlife Conference. 32: 270–274. - ^ a b Drut, Martin S.; Crawford, John A.; Gregg, Michael A. 1994. Brood habitat use by sage grouse in Oregon. Great Basin Naturalist. 54(2): 170–176 - ^ a b Wallestad, Richard O. (1971). "Summer movements and habitat use by sage grouse broods in central Montana". Journal of Range Management 35 (1): 129–136. JSTOR 3799881. - ^ a b c Rasmussen, D. I.; Griner, Lynn A. 1938. Life history and management studies of the sage grouse in Utah, with special reference to nesting and feeding habits. In: Transactions, 3rd North American Wildlife Conference: 852–864 - ^ a b c Gregg, Michael A.; Crawford, John A.; Drut, Martin S.; DeLong, Anita K (1994). "Vegetational cover and predation of sage grouse nests in Oregon". Journal of Wildlife Management 58 (1): 162–166. doi:10.2307/3809563. JSTOR 3809563. - ^ a b Gill, R. Bruce. 1966. A literature review on the sage grouse. Special Report No. 6. Denver, CO: Colorado Department of Game, Fish, and Parks, Game Research Division, Cooperative Wildlife Research Unit - ^ a b c d e f Wallestad, Richard. 1975. Life history and habitat requirements of sage grouse in central Montana. Helena, MT: Montana Department of Fish and Game - ^ a b c Johnsgard, Paul A. 1983. The grouse of the world. Lincoln, NE: University of Nebraska - ^ a b Schlatterer, Edward Frederick. 1960. Productivity and movements of a population of sage grouse in southeastern Idaho. Moscow, ID: University of Idaho. Thesis. - ^ a b c d e f g Patterson, Robert L. 1952. The sage grouse in Wyoming. Federal Aid to Wildlife Restoration Project 28-R. Denver, CO: Sage Books, Inc. - ^ a b c d - ^ Wallestad, Richard; Schladweiler, Philip (1974). "Breeding season movements and habitat selection of male sage grouse". Journal of Wildlife Management 38 (4): 634–637. doi:10.2307/3800030. JSTOR 3800030. - ^ a b c Eng, Robert L.; Schladweiler, P (1972). "Sage grouse winter movements and habitat use in central Montana". Journal of Wildlife Management 36 (1): 141–146. doi:10.2307/3799198. JSTOR 3799198. - ^ Bradbury, J. W.; Gibson, R. M.; McCarthy, C. E.; Vehrencamp, S. L (1989). "Dispersion of displaying male sage grouse. II. The role of female dispersion". Behavioral Ecology and Sociobiology 24 (1): 15–24. JSTOR 4600238. - ^ a b Rogers, Glenn E. 1964. Sage grouse investigations in Colorado. Tech. Publ. No. 16. Denver, CO: Colorado Game, Fish and Parks Department, Game Research Division - ^ a b c Klebenow, Donald A (1969). "Sage grouse nesting and brood habitat in Idaho". Journal of Wildlife Management 33 (3): 649–662. doi:10.2307/3799390. JSTOR 3799390. - ^ a b c Call, Mayo W. 1979. Habitat requirements and management recommendations for sage grouse. Denver, CO: U.S. Department of the Interior, Bureau of Land Management, Denver Service Center - ^ Wallestad, Richard; Pyrah, Duane (1974). "Movement and nesting of sage grouse hens in central Montana". Journal of Wildlife Management 38 (4): 630–633. doi:10.2307/3800029. JSTOR 3800029. - ^ a b Martin, Neil S (1970). "Sagebrush control related to habitat and sage grouse occurrence". Journal of Wildlife Management 34 (2): 313–320. doi:10.2307/3799015. JSTOR 3799015. - ^ Gregg, Michael A.; Crawford, John A.; Drut, Martin S. 1993. Summer habitat use and selection by female sage grouse (Centrocercus urophasianus) in Oregon. The Great Basin Naturalist. 53(3): 293–298 - ^ a b Dalke, Paul D.; Pyrah, Duane B.; Stanton, Don C. (1963). "Ecology, productivity, and management of sage grouse in Idaho". Journal of Wildlife Management 27 (4): 810–841. doi:10.2307/3798496. JSTOR 3798496. - ^ a b c d Autenrieth, Robert; Molini, William; Braun, Clait, eds. 1982. Sage grouse management practices. Tech. Bull No. 1. Twin Falls, ID: Western States Sage Grouse Committee - ^ a b Crawford, John Earl, Jr. 1960. The movements, productivity, and management of sage grouse in Clark and Fremont Counties, Idaho. Moscow, ID: University of Idaho. Thesis - ^ Young, James A.; Palmquist, Debra E (1992). "Plant age/size distributions in black sagebrush (Artemisia nova): effects on community structure". The Great Basin Naturalist 52 (4): 313–320. - ^ Welch, Bruce L.; Wagstaff, Fred J.; Roberson, Jay A (1991). "Preference of wintering sage grouse for big sagebrush". Journal of Range Management 44 (5): 462–465. doi:10.2307/4002745. JSTOR 4002745. - ^ a b c Barnett, Jenny K.; Crawford, John A (1994). "Pre-laying nutrition of sage grouse hens in Oregon". Journal of Range Management 47 (2): 114–118. doi:10.2307/4002817. JSTOR 4002817. - ^ Martin, Alexander C.; Zim, Herbert S.; Nelson, Arnold L. 1951. American wildlife and plants. New York: McGraw-Hill Book Company, Inc. - ^ Wrobleski, David W. 1999. Effects of prescribed fire on Wyoming big sagebrush communities: implications for ecological restoration of sage grouse habitat. Corvallis, OR: Oregon State University. Thesis - ^ Trueblood, Richard W. 1954. The effect of grass reseeding in sagebrush lands on sage grouse populations. Logan, UT: Utah State Agricultural College. Thesis - ^ Johnson, Gregory D.; Boyce, Mark S (1990). "Feeding trials with insects in the diet of sage grouse chicks". Journal of Wildlife Management 54 (1): 89–91. doi:10.2307/3808906. JSTOR 3808906. - ^ Klebenow, Donald A.; Gray, Gene M. (1968). "Food habits of juvenile sage grouse". Journal of Range Management 21 (2): 80–83. doi:10.2307/3896359. JSTOR 3896359. - ^ a b Broder, John M.. (2010-03-05) No Endangered Status for Plains Bird. Nytimes.com. Retrieved on 2011-08-07. - ^ Environment Canada (2006): Species at Risk – Greater Sage-Grouse phaios subspecies. Version of 8 May 2006– - ^ Howard, Hildegarde; Miller, A. H. (1933). "Bird remains from cave deposits in New Mexico". Condor 35 (1): 15–18. doi:10.2307/1363460.. DjVu fulltext - ^ "Western Watersheds Project v. US Fish and Wildlife Service, Case No. CV-06-277-E-BLW" (PDF). December 4, 2007.. - ^ Chief US District Judge Winmill (2007) - ^ a b c d e Braun, Clait E. 1998. Sage grouse declines in western North America: what are the problems? In: In: Proceedings, Western Association of Fish and Wildlife Agencies; 1998 June 26 – July 2; Jackson, WY. Cheyenne, WY: Western Association of Fish and Wildlife Agencies: 139–156 - ^ a b c d Kindschy, Robert R. 1986. Rangeland vegetative succession—implications to wildlife. Rangelands. 8(4): 157–159 - ^ a b DeLong, Anita K.; Crawford, John A.; DeLong, Don C., Jr. (1995). "Relationships between vegetational structure and predation of artificial sage grouse nests". Journal of Wildlife Management 59 (1): 88–92. doi:10.2307/3809119. JSTOR 3809119. - ^ - ^ Pennycuick, C. J.; Fuller, Mark R.; Oar, Jack J.; Kirkpatrick, Sean J (1994). "Falcon versus grouse: flight adaptations of a predator and its prey". Journal of Avian Biology 25 (1): 39–49. doi:10.2307/3677292. JSTOR 3677292. - ^ Dunkle, Sidney W (1977). "Swainson's hawks on the Laramie Plains". Wyoming. Auk. 94 (1): 65–71. JSTOR 4084890. - ^ Stigar, Mark S. 1989. Hunting low density sage grouse populations. Reno, NV: University of Nevada Reno. Thesis - ^ Crawford, John A (1982). "Factors affecting sage grouse harvest in Oregon". Wildlife Society Bulletin 10 (4): 374–377. Further reading - "Centrocercus urophasianus". IUCN Red List of Threatened Species. Version 2007. International Union for Conservation of Nature. 2004.. Retrieved 09 November 2007. - Connelly, John W.; Knick, Steven T.; Schroeder, Michael A. & Stiver, San J. (2004): Conservation Assessment of Greater Sage-grouse and Sagebrush Habitats. Unpublished Report, Western Association of Fish and Wildlife Agencies. Cheyenne, Wyoming. PDf fulltext - Western Watersheds Project v. U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service – Summary Judgement PDF fulltext Unreviewed Names and Taxonomy Taxonomy Comments: This species formerly included C. minimus, which is now recognized as a distinct species, the Gunnison sage-grouse (AOU 2000). Subspecies phaios is of questionable taxonomic validity; validity may be impossible to determine because of introductions of nominate subspecies into range of phaios (Johnsgard 1983, Banks 1995). Accordingly, USFWS (2003, 2010) did not recognize any valid subspecies of C. urophasianus. Columbia Basin Distinct Population Segment: USFWS (2003) found that the discrete population segment of greater sage-grouse that remains in Washington is significant to the remainder of the taxon and thus represents a distinct population segment. The significance of this population segment is primarily due to its persistence in the unique ecological setting of the Columbia Basin. In addition, the available genetic and morphological information on greater sage-grouse, while inconclusive, indicates that this population segment may be differentiating from the remainder of the taxon, and its extirpation could preclude further scientific inquiry into these characteristics. Finally, information concerning the historic and current distribution of greater sage-grouse indicates that the loss of the Columbia Basin population segment would represent a significant gap in the historical range of the taxon. Trusted Disclaimer EOL content is automatically assembled from many different content providers. As a result, from time to time you may find pages on EOL that are confusing. To request an improvement, please leave a comment on the page. Thank you!

Alcatel-lucent Temporis 42 Here you can find all about Alcatel-lucent Temporis 42 like manual and other informations. For example: review. Alcatel-lucent Temporis 42 manual (user guide) is ready to download for free. On the bottom of page users can write a review. If you own a Alcatel-lucent Temporis 42 please write about it to help other people. [ Report abuse or wrong photo | Share your Alcatel-lucent Temporis 42 photo ] Manual Preview of first few manual pages (at low quality). Check before download. Click to enlarge. Alcatel-lucent Temporis 42 User reviews and opinions No opinions have been provided. Be the first and add a new opinion/review. Documents 2007 ANNUAL REPORT ON FORM 20-F - 67 Interest rate risk In the event of an interest rate decrease, the fair value of our fixed-rate debt would increase and it would be more costly for us to repurchase it (not taking into account that an increased credit spread reduces the value of the debt). In the table below, the potential change in fair value for interest rate sensitive instruments is based on a hypothetical and immediate one percent fall or rise for 2007 and 2006, in interest rates across all maturities and for all currencies. Interest rate sensitive instruments are fixed-rate, long-term debt or swaps and marketable securities. In millions of euros Booked value Fair value December 31, 2007 Fair value Fair value variation variation if rates if rates fall rise by 1% by 1% 10 (136) (134) 34 (226) (10) (32) 199 Booked value Fair value December 31, 2006 Fair value Fair value variation variation if rates if rates fall rise by 1% by 1% (314) (256) (1) 49 (512) (11) (46) 438 Assets Marketable securities (1) Cash and cash equivalents (2) Liabilities Convertible bonds Non convertible bonds Other financial debt Interest rate derivatives Loan to co-venturer (DEBT)/CASH POSITION 894 4,377 (2,273) (2,381) (394) 271 894 4,377 (2,104) (2,310) (394) 511 1,942 4,749 (2,682) (2,672) (855) 26 508 1,942 4,749 (2,834) (2,828) (856) 26 199 For bank overdrafts, the booked value is considered as a good estimation of the fair value. Over 99% of our bonds have been issued with fixed rates. At year-end 2007, the fair value of our long-term debt was lower than its booked value due to increasing interest rates. At year-end 2006, the fair value of our long-term debt was higher than its booked value due to falling interest rates. Assumptions and calculations The fair value of the instruments in the table above is calculated with market standard financial software according to the market parameters prevailing on December 31, 2007. Fair value hedge The ineffective portion of changes in fair value hedges was a loss of 19 million at December 31, 2007, compared to a loss of 18 million at December 31, 2006 and a loss of 9 million at December 31, 2005. We did not have any amount excluded from the measure of effectiveness. There was no impact of contract cancellation in the income statement at December 31, 2007, 2006 and 2005. Net investment hedge We have stopped using investment hedges in foreign subsidiaries. At December 31, 2007, 2006 and 2005, there were no derivatives that qualified as investment hedges. Powers of the Board of directors Our Board, in addition to matters that come under its legal or regulatory authority, regularly decides on the Groups strategic direction and the key decisions affecting its activities. It fully exercises its authority and tries to ensure that each Directors contribution is entirely effective, in accordance with the principles of corporate governance described above and the provisions of its Operating Rules. Our Board of directors also make sure that its activities are transparent to our shareholders by reporting generally on its activities and those of its Committees during the previous year and on its procedures, in our annual report. Finally, the Board performs an annual evaluation of the manner in which it does its work and of the performance of the executive officers. At least once every three years, it has its performance evaluated by an outside consultant. Excerpt from the Board of directors Operating Rules In addition to matters related to its legal or regulatory function, the board shall regularly decide upon, among other things, the Groups strategic orientations and the main decisions affecting its activities. This relates in particular to the projects of important investments of organic growth and the operations of internal reorganizations, major acquisitions and divestitures of shares and assets, transactions or commitments that may significantly affect the financial results of the group or considerably modify the structure of its balance sheet and the strategic alliances and financial cooperation agreements. Preparation of meetings, organization and functioning of the Board of directors The Operating Rules govern the manner in which our Board of directors functions. The Board meets at least once each quarter either at our head office or at any other location indicated in the notice of meeting, whether in France or abroad. We provide our Directors with all the information they need to perform their duties. Board members regularly receive relevant information concerning our company, such as press articles and financial analysts reports. They may also seek the opinion of senior officers within the Group on any subject they deem appropriate. The documentation provided at Board meetings supports the items on the agenda and includes the documents sent to the Directors prior to the meeting as well as additional documents. In general, each item on the agenda is supported by internal and/or external documentation, depending on the nature of the topic discussed and, if applicable, is accompanied by a draft of the proposed resolution of the Board. Where appropriate in light of the agenda, the documentation also includes a draft press release, which is generally published the day after the meeting and before Euronext Paris opens, in accordance with the AMFs recommendations. Lastly, the documentation contains a list of the main contracts and agreements signed since the previous meeting as well as information about changes in our share price. The work of the Board is generally based on presentations made by our senior management, which generate open discussions among the Directors. However, certain portions of Board meetings are not attended by our CEO or employees, pursuant to one of the recommendations of the New York Stock Exchange and the principles of corporate governance recommended by the AFEP and the MEDEF in October 2003. Directors may participate in Board meetings by videoconference or by means of telecommunication through which they can be identified. Directors participating in this manner are deemed in attendance for determining the quorum and the majority of votes unless the matters being discussed are prohibited by law from being considered by these means. Directors must notify the Chairman of the Board of any conflict of interest, even potential. Moreover, if this conflict concerns a particular matter, they must refrain from voting on such matter. Depending on the Boards agenda and the nature of the topics discussed at the meeting, Board meetings may be preceded by a meeting of one or several of its four specialized committees. Excerpt from the Board of directors Operating Rules In the course of carrying out its various responsibilities, the Board of directors may create specialized committees, composed of Directors appointed by the Board, that review matters within the scope of the Boards responsibilities and submit to the Board their opinions and proposals, in accordance with the internal rules governing such committees. The Board of directors shall have the following standing committees: the corporate governance and nominating committee, the compensation committee, the audit and finance committee and the strategy and investments committee. 2007 ANNUAL REPORT ON FORM 20-F - 95 Except in case of an emergency, all information required for the Boards discussions is sent prior to the meeting in a manner that is consistent with the confidentiality to be respected when delivering insider information, and that allows the Directors to carefully review the documents prior to the meeting. This also applies to the specialized committees created by the Board of directors. Board meetings called to prepare the year-end, six-month and quarterly financial statements are systematically preceded by a review of the financial statements by the Audit and Finance Committee. Activity of the Board in 2007 and early 2008 Our Board of directors met 10 times in 2007. To the meeting schedule for the year 2007 set in the prior year, there were added two extraordinary meetings, in view of new developments. The average attendance rate of its members at these meetings was 93%. Despite the fact that some meetings were held outside the country in which certain Directors reside and although Directors are permitted by law to participate in meetings remotely, 77% of the members attended meetings in person in 2007. In early 2008, our Board of directors met four times, in February, in March and early April, and the attendance rate of its members was 93%. The Boards meetings were held at the companys head office in Paris or in Murray Hill, New Jersey. They lasted three and a half hours on average and were often preceded or followed by informal meetings with members of the Management Committee, which allowed the Directors to discuss on a periodic basis with the Groups main operating executives our strategic and technological direction. In 2007, the Board met on two occasions, and in 2008 on two occasions, without the CEO and employees being in attendance. The main topics addressed by the Board of directors in 2007 and early 2008 were as follows: Accounts and financial position In 2007, our Board reviewed and approved the year-end Alcatel-Lucent and the Groups consolidated financial statements for the fiscal year ended December 31, 2006, which were subsequently approved by our Shareholders at the meeting held in June 2007. It approved a budget forecast for 2007, and proposed an appropriation of results, that is, the appropriation of the profit or loss of the final year to legal reserves, statutory reserves or retained earnings. It reviewed certain matters related to the accounting principles either temporarily or permanently applicable as a result of the business combination with Lucent, such as the election of the SORIE method (Statement of Recognized Income and Expense) as permitted by the IASB for recognizing actuarial gains/losses and changes in asset ceiling outside the income statement. It also studied the impact of eliminating the reconciliation of our net income and shareholders equity, prepared in accordance with IFRS, with U.S. GAAP, which new SEC regulations allow, in certain circumstances. In addition, it reviewed and approved the quarterly and half-year consolidated financial statements for the year ended December 31, 2007. At each of these meetings, the accounts were examined in the presence of our Statutory Auditors and a report was presented on the work of the Audit and Finance Committee. More generally, our Board monitored changes in the Groups results and financial structure as well as the progress of restructuring and cost reduction plans. This prompted the Board to convene two extraordinary meetings and to request various specific reports from senior management as well as the preparation of a general action plan in late October 2007. Moreover, on several occasions the Board addressed the specific issue of Lucents pension fund management. The Board concluded that it was incumbent upon the Board to establish general guidelines for allocating the assets of these funds, and to appoint the members of the advisory committee responsible for overseeing this management (Pension Benefits Investment Committee). The Board therefore appointed the members of this Committee and approved a change to the asset allocation policy. Our Board was also informed of the terms and conditions under which the revolving syndicated lines of credit previously issued to historical Alcatel and Lucent were renegotiated for the benefit of the Group following the business combination with Lucent. In 2008, our Board reviewed and approved the year-end Alcatel-Lucent and consolidated financial statements for the year ended December 31, 2007, to be submitted to the shareholders for definitive approval. It approved a budget forecast for 2008, and proposed an appropriation of results. 2007 ANNUAL REPORT ON FORM 20-F - 99 Our Audit and Finance Committee gave prior authorization for assignments carried out by its Statutory Auditors which are not related to statutory audits. After presentations by the Chief Financial Officer and the Statutory Auditors, the committee also set the Auditors fees for 2007. Our Audit and Finance Committee met twice in the first quarter of 2008 to conduct a review of the results and financial statements for the year ended December 31, 2007 and of the annual report of the Internal Audit department for 2007, as well as the internal audit plan for 2008. It reviewed the draft annual report on Form 20-F and the reference document, and the internal and external auditors reports on internal control procedures in place within our Group. Corporate Governance and Nominating Committee The Corporate Governance and Nominating Committee consists of no less than three members, at least two-thirds of whom must be independent. Since November 30, 2006, the members of this committee are Mr. Daniel Bernard, committee chairman, Ms. Linnet Deily, Mr. Frank Blount, Mr. Henry Schacht and Mr. Jean-Cyril Spinetta. The first responsibility of our Corporate Governance and Nominating Committee, as defined by the Board of directors Operating Rules, is to review questions related to the composition, organization and operation of the Board of directors and its committees, to identify and propose to the Board individuals who are qualified to hold the position of Director and serve on committees, to develop and recommend to the Board a set of corporate governance principles applicable to the company, and to oversee the evaluations of the Board and its committees. The second responsibility of our Corporate Governance and Nominating Committee is to examine the succession plans for the Chairman of the Board, the CEO and our Groups other senior executives. Our Corporate Governance and Nominating Committee met three times in 2007. Among other things, it reviewed the Directors Charter, advised the Board as to the position it should take on the amendments to the Articles of Association proposed by certain shareholders concerning statutory limitations on voting rights and double voting rights, examined the succession plans for members of the Management Committee, reviewed the training of Directors, proposed the appointment of a deputy secretary to the Board, and made suggestions for changing the organization of the management team. The committee met once in early 2008. It reviewed in depth the self-evaluation report of the Board, examined the independence of the Directors (see in this Section "Activity of the Board in 2007 and early 2008") and considered the candidates for the replacement of the current observers. 114 - 2007 ANNUAL REPORT ON FORM 20-F Stock options and other stock-based compensation instruments issued by Lucent Technologies Inc. As part of the business combination with Lucent, we agreed to issue Alcatel-Lucent shares to holders of stock options and other stock-based compensation instruments (restricted stock units, performance shares and Directors deferrals) granted by Lucent Technologies Inc., in the event of such holders exercise or conversion of the rights attached to their instruments. As of November 30, 2006, the date of the business combination between historical Alcatel and Lucent, these instruments entitled holders to a total of 311,307,596 common shares of Lucent Technologies Inc. Consequently, and in accordance with the decision made by our Board of directors on November 30, 2006, acting on the authority granted by the Shareholders Meeting of September 7, 2006, Alcatel-Lucents Coralec subsidiary issued to Lucent 60,767,243 bonds, each of which may be converted into one Alcatel-Lucent share. When the Lucent stock options or other stock-based compensation instruments are exercised by their holders, Lucent requests conversion of the corresponding number of convertible bonds and immediately delivers the number of Alcatel-Lucent shares resulting from the conversion to those holders who have exercised their rights. At December 31, 2007, there was a total of 56,260,251 outstanding bonds convertible into Alcatel-Lucent shares. However only a maximum of 33,139,094 of these bonds may still be converted, given the cancellation of stock options on that same date. These bonds are not listed on any stock exchange. Redeemable notes (ORAs) Issues related to acquisitions In 2004, we authorized the issuance by our subsidiary Coralec of debt represented by notes redeemable for Alcatel-Lucent shares (ORAs), in order to allow for the acquisition of Spatial Wireless (United States). In connection with this acquisition, 18,988,334 notes redeemable for Alcatel-Lucent shares were issued to historical Alcatel at a unit price of 11.91. There were no redemptions in 2007 and the number of Alcatel-Lucent shares issued since the issuance of the ORAs to repay these notes is 18,483,297. In 2003, we authorized the issuance by Coralec of debt represented by notes redeemable for Alcatel-Lucent shares, in order to allow for the acquisition of iMagic TV Inc. (Canada) and TiMetra Ltd. (United States). In connection with the acquisition of iMagic TV Inc., 3,717,254 notes redeemable for Alcatel-Lucent shares were issued to historical Alcatel at a unit price of 7.44. There were no redemptions in 2007. The number of Alcatel-Lucent shares issued since the issuance of the ORAs to repay these notes is 3,631,332. In connection with the acquisition of TiMetra Ltd., 17,979,738 notes redeemable for Alcatel-Lucent shares were issued to historical Alcatel at a unit price of 8.08. During 2007, 500,000 shares were issued in exchange for these notes, thus bringing the number of Alcatel-Lucent shares issued since the issuance of these notes to repay the ORAs to 17,034,934. In 2002, we authorized the issuance by Coralec of debt represented by notes redeemable for Alcatel-Lucent shares, in order to allow for the acquisition of Astral Point Communications Inc. (United States). In connection with the acquisition of Astral Point Communications Inc., 9,506,763 notes redeemable for Alcatel-Lucent shares were issued to historical Alcatel at a unit price of 16.41. There were no redemptions in 2007 and the number of AlcatelLucent shares issued since issuance of the ORAs to repay these notes is 9,123,396. At December 31, 2007, there was a total of 1,919,130 outstanding notes redeemable for Alcatel-Lucent shares. These bonds are not listed on any stock exchange. b) Exceeding the statutory thresholds In accordance with the statutory provisions, any individual or legal entity and/or shareholder that comes to own a number of shares in the company equal to or above 2% of the total number of shares must, within a period of five trading days from the date on which this share ownership threshold is exceeded, inform the company of the total number of shares owned, by letter or fax. A further notification must be sent in the same manner each time a new threshold of 1% is exceeded. If the threshold of 3% of the total number of shares is exceeded, the shareholder must, within a period of five trading days from the date on which this share ownership threshold is reached, request the registration of the shares. The copy of the request for registration, sent by letter or fax to the company within fifteen days from the date on which this share ownership threshold is exceeded, is deemed to be a notification that the threshold has been reached. A further request must be sent in the same manner each time a further threshold of 1% is exceeded, up to 50%. For purposes of the calculation of the thresholds, indirectly held shares which are considered to be owned pursuant to Articles L. 233-7 et seq. of the French Commercial Code must be taken into account. In each notification referred to above, the shareholder must certify that all securities held indirectly as well as the shares considered to be owned are included. The notification must also indicate the date(s) of acquisition. These obligations of share notification and registration apply to the holders who own shares through ADSs. If a shareholder fails to comply with the provisions relating to notification that the thresholds have been exceeded, the voting rights for the shares exceeding the thresholds are, at the request of one or more shareholders holding at least 3% of the share capital, suspended under the conditions provided for by law. Any shareholder whose shareholding falls below either of the thresholds provided for above must also inform the company thereof, within the same period of five trading days and in the same manner. c) Exceeding the legal thresholds Beyond the notification obligations, provided for in our Articles of Association, French law requires that any individual or legal entity, acting alone or in concert, which comes to hold a total number of shares (including through ADSs), above 5%, 10%, 15%, 20%, 25%, 33 1/3%, 50%, 66 2/3%, 90% or 95% of the capital or of the voting rights of a company, notify the company and the AMF within five trading days from the date on which these thresholds are exceeded. This notification must also be made, within the same period, when the holding in capital or voting rights falls below these thresholds. In the event of failure to appropriately notify that these thresholds have been exceeded, the voting rights of the shares in excess of the threshold that should have been notified are suspended for any shareholders meeting that might be held up to the expiration of a period of two years from the date the notification is eventually filed. Changes in the capital a) Capital increases In accordance with applicable law, our capital may be increased by cash or in-kind contributions, pursuant to a resolution of the Extraordinary General Meeting approved by two-thirds of the shareholders present or represented. This power may also be delegated to the Board of directors. In the event of a delegation to the Board of directors, the Chief Executive Officer may be granted specific powers to make the capital increase. The capital may also be increased: by the capitalization of reserves, profits or issuance premium pursuant to a decision of the General Meeting of Shareholders taken with the approval of a simple majority of the shareholders present or represented; in case of payment of a dividend in shares decided by an Ordinary General Meeting of Shareholders; or upon tender of securities or rights giving access to the companys capital (bonds convertible into shares, bonds repayable in shares, warrants to purchase shares or other securities). b) Capital decreases The share capital may be decreased pursuant to a decision of two-thirds of the shareholders present or represented at an Extraordinary General Meeting of Shareholders, either by decreasing the nominal value of the shares or by reducing the number of shares outstanding. 126 - 2007 ANNUAL REPORT ON FORM 20-F Management of the company Our company is managed by a Board of directors consisting of at least six and not more than fourteen members. If there is any vacancy following the death or resignation of one or more Directors, the Board of directors must temporarily appoint for each vacancy one replacement Director, such appointment being subject to approval at the next General Meeting of Shareholders. The appointment of a replacement Director in the event of a vacancy by reason of death or resignation requires the simple majority of the Directors present or represented. Each Director must hold at least 500 company shares. Term of Directors mandate Age Limit Directors are elected for a four-year term. Directors may be re-elected subject to the following provisions. A Director appointed to replace another Director may hold office only for the remainder of his predecessors term of office. The maximum age for holding a Directorship shall be 70. This age limit does not apply if less than one third, rounded up to the nearest whole number, of serving Directors have reached the age of 70. No Director over 70 may be appointed if, as a result, more than one third of the serving Directors rounded up as defined above, are over 70. If for any reason whatsoever the number of serving Directors over 70 should exceed one third as defined above, the oldest Director(s) shall automatically be deemed to have retired at the ordinary General Meeting of Shareholders called to approve the accounts of the fiscal year in which the proportion of Directors over 70 years was exceeded, unless the proportion was reestablished in the meantime. Directors representing legal entities are taken into account when calculating the number of Directors to which the age limit does not apply. Legal entities that are represented on the Board must replace any 70 year old representative at the latest at the ordinary General Meeting of Shareholders called to approve the accounts of the fiscal year in which such representative reached the age of 70. The age limitations apply to any Chairman of the Board of directors, provided that such Chairman is not at the same time the Chief Executive Officer of the Company, in which case the age limitation of 68 shall apply. Capital stock 2,852 Additional paid-in capital 8,226 Retained Earnings (4,430) 18 Fair value and other reserves 43 (144) Cumulative Treasury translation stock adjustments (1,607) (183) 357 1,365,973,827 2,305,660 1,341,444 (37) (6) 32 1,369,620,931 (4,455) 922 (1,575) 922 (922) 6,130 6,8,922 20 6,605 - (3,533) 8 (101) 473 174 (289) 475 10 6,8,922 20 878,139,615 2,997,886 1,756 6 7,166 14 180,718 (7) (219) 20 3 (4) (219) 20 (4) (219) 30 2,250,939,150 16,443 (3,731) (106) (1,572) (106) 106 15,910 15,910 (4,432) 44 (30) (361) (2) 16,405 - (3,837) (14) 372 70 (115) (970) (3,518) (18) - 16,405 (4,394) 44 (30) (379) (2) 7,762,279 28 (30) 102 349,304 (4) (361) (2) 2,259,050,733 16,543 (4,218) (3,518) (1,567) (1,085) (3,518) 3,518 11,232 11,747 - Balance at December 31, 2007 after appropriation (1) (2) (3) (7,736) 11,747 See consolidated statements of recognized income and expense. For more details on the acquisition of Lucent, please refer to note 3. The appropriation is proposed by the Board of Directors and need to be approved by the Shareholders Meeting before being final. 2007 ANNUAL REPORT ON FORM 20-F - 157 NOTES TO CONSOLIDATED FINANCIAL STATEMENTS Alcatel-Lucent (formerly called Alcatel) is a French public limited liability company that is subject to the French Commercial Code and to all the legal requirements governing commercial companies in France. Alcatel changed its name to Alcatel-Lucent on completion of the business combination with Lucent Technologies Inc. Alcatel-Lucent was incorporated on June 18, 1898 and will be dissolved on June 30, 2086, except if dissolved earlier or if its existence is extended by shareholder vote. AlcatelLucents headquarters are situated at 54, rue la Botie, 75008 Paris, France. Alcatel-Lucent is listed principally on the Paris and New York stock exchanges. The consolidated financial statements reflect the results and financial position of Alcatel-Lucent and its subsidiaries (the Group) as well as its investments in associates (equity affiliates) and joint ventures. They are presented in Euros rounded to the nearest million. The Group develops and integrates technologies, applications and services to offer innovative global communications solutions. On March 25, 2008, Alcatel-Lucent's Board of Directors authorized for issuance these consolidated financial statements at December 31, 2007. The consolidated financial statements will be final once approved at the Annual Shareholders Meeting to be held on May 30, 2008. 2. In the domain of critical systems for security: On January 5, 2007, with respect to this transfer, 25 million new Thales shares were issued to Alcatel-Lucent, and AlcatelLucent received a cash payment of 50 million. As a result of the issuance of the shares, Alcatel-Lucent increased its shareholdings to 20.95%, which continue to be accounted for as an investment in associates, and the French State remained the main shareholder with a 27.29% stake (held directly or indirectly). The assets envisaged for the contribution and disposal were accounted for as assets held for sale in the consolidated financial statements at December 31, 2006, as the criteria for classification in assets held for sale as defined by IFRS 5 Non-current Assets Held for Sale and Discontinued Operations were met at the balance sheet date and as some of the remaining uncertainties as of September 30, 2006 had then been cleared (i.e. signature of a final agreement between historical Alcatel and Thales, receipt of Finmeccanicas waiver concerning the transfer of Spatial business assets, receipt of French State approval, etc.) The assets contributed or disposed of to Thales were considered as one single transaction and one disposal group of assets as defined by IFRS 5 based upon the following facts and circumstances: the transaction was a global transaction that had to be carried out in two phases with two closing dates due exclusively to the European Commissions authorization process concerning the Space business; the Space activities disposal was contingent on the assets contribution of Transport Systems and Critical Systems Integration, and the amount of 670 million concerning the disposal of the Space business was considered a preliminary payment of the selling price (as an external expert will establish the definitive price in 2009) and is therefore not entirely representative of the market price of this business. It is one of the reasons why Alcatel-Lucent had no intention of disposing of the Space business without including it in the larger transaction defined in the Master Agreement. As the fair value less costs to sell of this disposal group is higher than the carrying amount, such carrying amount was not adjusted as of December 31, 2006. All net assets to be disposed of/contributed to Thales were isolated on the two specific line items related to discontinued operations in the consolidated balance sheet (that is, Assets held for sale and Liabilities related to disposal groups held for sale) as of December 31, 2006. The 2006 result of the disposal group was presented in the Income (loss) from discontinued operations line item in the consolidated income statement and the prior periods consolidated income statements have been re-presented accordingly. Detailed impacts are presented in note 10. The capital gain related to this disposal and the difference between the preliminary selling price of the Space business (as described above) and its carrying value, was accounted for during the first quarter of 2007.. Funding requirements are usually determined for each individual plan, and as a result excess plan assets for over funded plans cannot be used for under funded plans. The over funded status, which amounted to 2,806 million at December 31, 2007 (under funded status amounted to 33 million at December 31, 2006 and 1,217 million at December 31, 2005) relates primarily to Lucents post-retirement benefits (see below) and to plans in France and Germany. Decisions on funding the benefit obligations are taken based on each countrys legal requirements and the tax-deductibility of the contributions made. In France and Germany, the funding of pension obligations relies primarily on defined contribution plans; setting up other funding arrangements is not common practice. Furthermore, in Germany, the benefits accruing to employees are guaranteed in the event of bankruptcy through a system of mutual insurance common to all companies involved in similar plans. See section D below for information on Lucent's plans. The benefit obligation, the fair value of the plan assets and the actuarial gains (losses) generated for the current year and the previous years are as follows: Experience adjustments generated on the benefit obligation In percentage of the benefit Amount obligation (166) 0.65% 21 0.07% 72 2.06% (In millions of euros) Experience adjustments generated on the plan assets Benefit obligation Plan assets Funded (unfunded) status 2,806 (33) (1,217) Amount 1,111 (25,425) (30,230) (3,503) 28,231 30,197 2,286 In percentage of the plan assets 3.80% 0.19% 4.86% 2007 ANNUAL REPORT ON FORM 20-F - 215 In respect of the medical care plans, a change of one percentage point in the assumed medical costs has the following impact (in millions of euros): Impact on the current service cost and interest costs Impact on the benefit obligation Increase of 1% (7) (115) Decrease of 1% 7 102 The plan assets of retirement plans are invested as follows: Bonds 17,154 61% 14,382 48% 941 41% Equity securities 5,628 20% 10,966 36% 626 28% Private equity and other 3,139 11% 2,537 8% 348 15% (In millions of euros and percentage) Real estate Total 2,310 28,231 8% 100% 2,312 30,197 8% 100% 371 2,286 16% 100% As part of the prudent management of its funds relative to the corresponding obligations, the Group reduced the exposure of its defined benefit pension plans to equity markets in November 2007. As of December 31, 2007, the global asset allocation of the groups plans was as follows: 20% in equity securities, 61% in bonds and 19% in alternatives (i.e., real estate, private equity and hedge funds). This compares to respectively 36%, 48% and 16% as of December 31, 2006. For historical Alcatel companies, the investment policy relating to plan assets within the Group depends upon local practices. In all cases, the proportion of equity securities cannot exceed 80% of plan assets and no individual equity security may represent more than 5% of total equity securities within the plan. The equity securities held by the plan must be listed on a recognized exchange. The bonds held by the plan must have a minimum A rating according to Standard & Poors or Moodys rating criteria. The contributions that are expected to be paid for 2008 are 124 million for the pension and other post-retirement benefits plans. Expected benefit payments made for beneficiaries from defined benefit pension plans through 2017 are as follows: (1) Loan to a co-venturer (refer to note 26). (4) (35) (45) (21) (12) (10) (17) (23) (1) (60) (30) 29 (20) (22) (50) (32) (11) (38) Members of the Board of Directors and members of the Groups executive committee are those present during the year and listed in the Corporate Governance section of the Annual Report. In 2007, 2006 and 2005, compensation, benefits and social security contributions attributable to members of the Board of Directors and to the executive committee members (Key management personnel) were as follows: Recorded expense in respect of compensation and related benefits attributable to Key management personnel during the year. 2007 ANNUAL REPORT ON FORM 20-F - 237 (In millions of euros) 2007 Short-term benefits Fixed remuneration Variable remuneration Directors fees Employers social security contributions Termination benefits and retirement indemnities Other benefits Post-employment benefits Share-based payments (stock option plans) Total (1) Variable remuneration and retention bonuses. Note 33 Employee benefit expenses and staff training rights Wages and salaries Restructuring costs 2007 5,(258) (544) 5,315 (In millions of euros) 3,392 3,(31) 3,45 3,848 Post-retirement benefit plan amendment Net employee benefit expenses Financial component of pension and post-retirement benefit costs Including social security expenses and operational pension costs. This is reported in Income (loss) from operating activities before restructuring costs, impairment of assets, gain/(loss) on disposal of consolidated entities and post-retirement benefit plan amendment. See note 27d. See note 25e. See note 8. The law of May 4, 2004 in France provides French company employees with the right to receive individual training of at least 20 hours per year that can be accumulated over six years. Rights related to terminated or dismissed employees exercised during the notice period and rights exercised by employees considered as not adapted to the needs of their employer or not professional in nature, are assimilated to short and long-term employee benefits as defined in IAS 19 and have been provided for accordingly. All other rights are accounted for as incurred, as Alcatel-Lucent expects to receive an amount of economic benefits from the training to be taken that exceeds the costs to be incurred to settle the present obligation. Accumulated individual staff training rights were 844,515 hours at December 31, 2007 (652,811 hours at December 31, 2006 and 601,179 hours at December 31, 2005). Rights exercised so far are not material. Note 34 Contingencies In addition to legal proceedings incidental to the conduct of its business (including employment-related collective actions in France and the U.S.) which management believes are adequately reserved against in the financial statements or will not result in any significant costs to the Group, Alcatel-Lucent is involved in the following legal proceedings: Class A and Class O shareholders Beginning in May 2002, several purported class action lawsuits were filed against Alcatel-Lucent and certain of its officers and Directors challenging the accuracy of certain public disclosures that were made in the prospectus for the initial public offering of Alcatel Class O shares and in other public statements regarding market demand for our former Optronics divisions products. The lawsuits purport to be brought on behalf of persons who (i) acquired Alcatel Class O shares in or pursuant to the initial public offering of the American Depositary Shares (ADSs) conducted by Alcatel in October 2000, (ii) purchased Alcatel Class A and Class O shares in the form of ADSs between October 20, 2000 and May 29, 2001 and (iii) purchased Alcatel Class A shares in the form of ADSs between May 1, 2000 and May 29, 2001. The amount of damages sought by these lawsuits was not specified. 2007 ANNUAL REPORT ON FORM 20-F - 239 On February 21, 2005, Taisel, the former president of Taisel, and others were indicted in Taiwan for violation of the Taiwanese Government Procurement Act. On November 15, 2005, the Taipei criminal district court found Taisel not guilty of the alleged violation of the Government Procurement Act. The former President of Taisel was not judged because he was not present or represented at the proceedings. The court found two Taiwanese businessmen involved in the matter guilty of violations of the Business Accounting Act. The prosecutor has filed an appeal with the Taipei court of appeals. Should the higher court find Taisel guilty of the bidrigging allegations in the indictment, Taisel may be banned from participating in government procurement contracts within Taiwan for a certain period and fines or penalties may be imposed on Alcatel-Lucent, in an amount not to exceed 25,000. Other allegations made in connection with this matter may still be under ongoing investigation by the Taiwanese authorities. The SEC and the DOJ are also looking into these allegations. As a group, Alcatel-Lucent expects to generate approximately 80 million of revenue from Taiwanese contracts in 2008, of which only a part will be from governmental contracts. Based on the amount of revenue expected from these contracts, AlcatelLucent does not believe a loss of business in Taiwan would have a material adverse effect on the Alcatel-Lucent group as a whole. Kenya The SEC and the DOJ have asked Alcatel-Lucent to look into payments made by CIT to a consultant arising out of a supply contract between CIT and a privately-owned company in Kenya in 2000. Alcatel-Lucent understands that the French authorities are also conducting an investigation with respect to these payments. Alcatel-Lucent is cooperating with the U.S. and French authorities and has submitted to these authorities its findings regarding those payments. Government investigations related to Lucent Saudi Arabia In August 2003, the DOJ and the SEC informed Lucent that they had each commenced an investigation into possible violations of the FCPA with respect to Lucents operations in Saudi Arabia. These investigations followed allegations made by National Group for Communications and Computers Ltd. (NGC) in an action filed against Lucent on August 8, 2003, which is described below. Alcatel-Lucent does not expect any further action by the SEC or the DOJ relating to the Saudi allegations. China In April 2004, Lucent reported to the DOJ and the SEC that an internal FCPA compliance audit and an outside counsel investigation found incidents and internal control deficiencies in Lucents operations in China that potentially involve FCPA violations. Lucent cooperated with those agencies. On December 21, 2007, Lucent entered into agreements with the DOJ and the SEC to settle their respective investigations. Lucent signed a non-prosecution agreement with the DOJ. Pursuant to that agreement, the DOJ agreed not to charge Lucent with any crime in connection with the allegations in China. Lucent agreed to pay a 1 million monetary penalty and adopt or modify its existing internal controls, policies, and procedures. On December 21, 2007, the SEC filed civil charges against Lucent in the United States District Court for the District of Columbia alleging violations of the books and records and internal controls provisions of the FCPA. That same day, Lucent and the SEC entered into a consent agreement, resolving those charges. Pursuant to that consent agreement, Lucent, without admitting or denying the allegations in the SECs complaint, agreed to a permanent injunction enjoining Lucent from any future violations of the internal controls and books and records provisions of the FCPA. Lucent further agreed to pay a civil penalty of U.S.$ 1.5 million. If Lucent abides by the terms of its agreements with the DOJ and the SEC, Lucent does not anticipate any further actions by the DOJ and the SEC with respect to allegations regarding Lucents conduct in China. Subpoenas and discovery requests In May 2005, Lucent received subpoenas on two different matters, requesting specific documents and records. One of the subpoenas relates to a DOJ investigation of potential antitrust and other violations by various participants in connection with the United States governments E-Rate program. The subpoena requires Lucent to produce documents before a grand jury of the U.S. District Court in Georgia. The second subpoena was from the Office of Inspector General, U.S. General Services Administration and relates to a federal investigation into certain sales to the federal government of telecommunications equipment and related maintenance services. During April 2006, the California Department of Justice served Lucent with discovery requests related to sales to California governmental agencies of telecommunications equipment and related maintenance services. Lucents employment and benefits related cases Lucent has implemented various actions to address the rising costs of providing retiree health care benefits and the funding of Lucent pension plans. These actions have led to the filing of cases against Lucent and may lead to the filing of additional cases. Purported class action lawsuits have been filed against Lucent in connection with the elimination of the death benefit from its U.S. management pension plan in early 2003. Three such cases have been consolidated into a single action pending in the U.S. District Court in New Jersey, captioned In Re Lucent Death Benefits ERISA Litigation. The elimination of this benefit reduced Lucent future pension obligations by U.S.$ 400 million. The benefit was paid out of the pension plan assets to certain qualified surviving dependents, such as spouses or dependent children of management retirees. The case alleges that Lucent wrongfully terminated this death benefit and requests that it be reinstated, along with other remedies. This case has been dismissed by the court, but the dismissal has been appealed to a higher court and that appeal is pending. Another such case, Chastain, et al. v. AT&T, was filed in the U.S. District Court in the Western District of Oklahoma. The Chastain case also involves claims related to changes to retiree health care benefits. That case too has been dismissed, but the dismissal has been appealed to a higher court. The appeal remains pending. CDX-GT517EE Mix-2 CL3500N Thinkpad 570E Veriton M670 TX-26LX60F Motorazr VE20 HDC-1000 Siemens C70 Rebel XTI KX-TS2365RUW MAV-777 ALL-IN-ONE XV-Z100 Automate AM7 DD-20 Bizhub 361 UE40C7000WW Samsung ES55 DSC-W200 PRO 11 LG-G510 ERE3500 MZ-5N SA3045 PCV-RX202 LD 87 Synkron 200 Positions Tl92420 6301D Valloire 2 Yamaha UW10 GV-D200 LM560 Smcwbr14-G2 FJ1093CV BC-900 Freevents CDR760-00 Recon 2 S70318KG5 TX-32PL10FM NBG4115 Monopoly MPA 2 Behringer B-1 The Show IC-W21at-ET HC12 6 FS-1010 FAX-30 CP180I ZRT318W Deskjet 9650 Finepix J120 TL-PA101 Total WAR Primopdf Printer Express SRS535NW HCA530FTS HT-Z110 Laserjet 2605 Tlkr T7 SRT2127S Latitude D505 32RV600E KV-32S16 Hblg1453E Asus P5E CDX-GT430U PRS-700 Review UX-W31CW KD-G322 WTC1285E LE40A557p2F IEL9115-RF 08 XE-A40S SDR-H90 2442FX TX-NR901 UE-32B7020 IC-W31E SAN Remo ML380 84470 VI Motorola V635 FAV4071W CDA-9852RB 32LG5700 AEK TH1101 Axis 211 AT 3000 Series Ultimate CW-29M064N Adapter KEH-P3700

Alcatel-lucent Temporis 22 Here you can find all about Alcatel-lucent Temporis 22 like manual and other informations. For example: review. Alcatel-lucent Temporis 22 manual (user guide) is ready to download for free. On the bottom of page users can write a review. If you own a Alcatel-lucent Temporis 22 please write about it to help other people. [ Report abuse or wrong photo | Share your Alcatel-lucent Temporis 22 photo ] Manual Preview of first few manual pages (at low quality). Check before download. Click to enlarge. Alcatel-lucent Temporis 22 User reviews and opinions Comments posted on are solely the views and opinions of the people posting them and do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of us. Documents NOT FOR PUBLICATION, RELEASE OR DISTRIBUTION DIRECTLY OR INDIRECTLY IN CANADA, AUSTRALIA OR JAPAN Alcatel-Lucent launches an offering of bonds convertible into and/or exchangeable for new or existing shares (OCEANE) in an amount of 750 million Paris, September 2, 2009 - Alcatel-Lucent (Euronext Paris and NYSE: ALU) launches today an offering of bonds convertible into and/or exchangeable for new or existing shares of AlcatelLucent (the Bonds) due January 1, 2015 in an initial nominal amount of 750 million, which may be increased by 15% to approximately 862.5 million in the event that the over-allotment option granted to the Joint Lead-Managers and Joint Bookrunners of the offering is exercised in full at the latest on September 8, 2009. The principal purpose of the offering is to contribute to the refinancing of the groups debt and the extension of its maturity, and, secondarily, to further enhance the groups financial position. In particular, all or part of the proceeds of the issue may be used to finance the repurchase of part of the groups debt, including the bonds convertible into and/or exchangeable for new or existing shares due January 1, 2011 (the 2011 OCEANE), of which the principal amount outstanding is approximately 1,022 million. The nominal value of each Bond will correspond to an issue premium of 35% over AlcatelLucents reference share price on Euronext Paris1. The conversion / exchange ratio of the Bonds will be one new or existing Alcatel-Lucent share per Bond, subject to potential further adjustments. The Bonds will bear interest at a rate of between 5.00% and 5.50% per annum payable semiannually in arrears on January 1st and July 1st of each year, commencing January 1st, 2010 (or, if it is not a business day, the following business day). For the period from and including September 10, 2009, the issue date, up to and including December 31, 2009, the coupon will be payable on January 1, 2010 (or on the following business day if such date is not a business day) and will be calculated on a pro rata temporis basis. The Bonds will be issued at par on September 10, 2009 and will mature and be redeemed in cash at par on January 1, 2015. The Bonds may be redeemed early at the option of Alcatel-Lucent subject to certain conditions. The determination of the final terms of the issue is expected on September 2, 2009. The expected date of issue and settlement and delivery for the Bonds is September 10, 2009. This press release does not constitute an offering to subscribe, and the offering of the Bonds is not a public offering in any jurisdiction except in France, subject to the following: In France, The Bonds will initially be offered only in a private placement in accordance with article L. 411-2-II of the French Financial and Monetary Code; The reference share price will be the volume-weighted average price (VWAP) of Alcatel-Lucents shares quoted on Euronext Paris from the opening of trading on September 2, 2009 until the final terms of the Bonds are determined. Following such placement and once the final terms of the offering will have been determined, a visa will be requested from the French Autorit des marchs financiers (the AMF) on the offering circular (prospectus). Upon receipt of such visa, the Bonds will be offered to the public in France during the following three trading days. DISCLAIMER This press release must not be published, released or distributed, directly or indirectly, in Canada, Japan or Australia. This press release and the information contained herein do not constitute an offer to sell or subscribe, nor the solicitation of an order to purchase or subscribe, securities in the United States or in any other country. In particular, securities may not be offered or sold in France absent a prospectus approved by the AMF. The release, publication or distribution of this press release in certain jurisdictions may be restricted by laws or regulations. Therefore, persons in such jurisdictions into which this press release is released, published or distributed must inform themselves about and comply with such laws or regulations. The offer and sale of the Bonds in France will first be carried out in a private placement in accordance with article L.411-2-II of the French Financial and Monetary Code. The offer will be made to the public in France only after the granting of the visa by the AMF on the prospectus. With respect to the member States of the European Economic Area, other than France, which have implemented the Directive EC/2003/71 called the Prospectus Directive (each, a relevant member State), no action has been undertaken or will be undertaken to make an offer to the public of the Bonds requiring a publication of a prospectus in any relevant member State. As a result, the Bonds may only be offered in relevant member States: (I) to legal entities which are authorised or regulated to operate in the financial markets or, if not so authorised or regulated, whose corporate purpose is solely to place securities; to any legal entity which has two or more of the following criteria: (1) an average of at (II) least 250 employees during the last financial year; (2) a total balance sheet of more than 43 million; and (3) an annual net turnover of more than 50 million, as per its last annual or consolidated accounts; (III) in any other circumstances, not requiring the issuer to publish a prospectus as provided under article 3(2) of the prospectus directive. The securities referred to in this press release have not been and will not be registered under the U.S. Securities Act of 1933, as amended (US Securities Act), and may not be offered or sold in the United States absent registration or an exemption from registration under the US Securities Act. Alcatel-Lucent does not intend to register any portion of the planned offering in the United States or to conduct a public offering of securities in the United States. This press release is not an invitation nor an inducement to engage in investment activity for the purpose of Section 21 of the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000, as amended (FSMA). This press release this press release for the purposes of Section 21 of FSMA can otherwise lawfully be made available (all such persons together being referred to as Relevant Persons). Any person in the United Kingdom that is not a Relevant Person should not act or rely on this press release. The securities referred to in this press release or any investment or controlled activity to which such securities relate are only available to, and will be engaged in only with, Relevant Persons. One of the Joint-Lead Managers of the offering of the Bonds, acting as stabilizing manager (or any other affiliated institution) will have the ability, but not the obligation, as from the moment on which the final terms of the Bonds and the offering become public, i.e. expected on September 2, 2009, to intervene, so as to stabilize the market for the Bonds and possibly the shares of Alcatel-Lucent, in accordance with applicable legislation, and in particular Regulation (EC) No. 2273/2003 of the Commission dated December 22, 2003. If implemented, such stabilization activities may be suspended at any time and will end at the latest on September 8, 2009, in accordance with Article 8.5 of CE Regulation No. 2273/2003. Such transactions are intended to stabilize the price of the Bonds and/or shares of Alcatel-Lucent. Such transactions could affect the price of the Bonds and/or shares of Alcatel-Lucent and could result in such prices being higher than those that might otherwise prevail.atelL: Alcatel-Lucent Press Contacts [email protected] Rgine Coqueran-Gelin Tel: + 33 (0)24 Peter Benedict Tel: + 33 (0)84 [email protected] Alcatel-Lucent Investor Relations Rmi Thomas Tom Bevilacqua Tony Lucido Don Sweeney Thales. On December 1, 2006, we signed an agreement with Thales for the transfer of our interests in two joint ventures in the space sector created with Finmeccanica and of our railway signaling business and our integration and services activities for mission-critical systems not dedicated to operators or suppliers of telecommunications services (see Highlights of transactions during 2007 Dispositions above). Other Transactions Buy-out of Fujitsu joint venture. In August 2006, we acquired Fujitsus share in Evolium 3G, our wireless infrastructure joint venture with Fujitsu. Highlights of Transactions during 2005 Acquisition of Native Networks. On March 17, 2005, we completed the acquisition of Native Networks, Inc., a provider of optical Ethernet goods and services, for U.S.$ 55 million in cash. Sale of shareholding in Nexans. On March 16, 2005, we sold our shareholding in Nexans, representing 15.1% of Nexans share capital, through a private placement. Sale of electrical power systems business. On January 26, 2005, we completed the sale of our electrical power business to Ripplewood, a U.S. private equity firm. Amendment of credit facility. On March 15, 2005, we amended our existing syndicated revolving 1.3 billion credit facility by extending the maturity date from June 2007 to June 2009, with a possible extension until 2011, eliminating one of the two financial covenants, reducing the cost of the facility and reducing the overall amount to 1.0 billion. Merger of space activities. On July 1, 2005, we completed the merger of our space activities with those of Finmeccanica, S.p.A., an Italian aerospace and defense company, through the creation of two sister companies. We owned 67%, and Alenia Spazio, a unit of Finmeccanica, owned 33%, of the first company, Alcatel Alenia Space, that combined our respective industrial space activities. Finmeccanica owned 67%, and we owned 33%, of the second company, Telespazio Holding, which combined our respective satellite operations and service activities. Exchange of our interest in joint venture with TCL Communication. On July 18, 2005, we exchanged our 45% shareholding in our joint venture with TCL Communication Technology Holdings Limited for shares of TCL Communication, which resulted in TCL Communication owning all of the joint venture company and our owning 141,375,000 shares of TCL Communication. 2007 ANNUAL REPORT ON FORM 20-F - 21 4.3 STRUCTURE OF THE PRINCIPAL COMPANIES CONSOLIDATED IN THE GROUP AS OF DECEMBER 31, 2007 By percentage of share capital held. 22 - 2007 ANNUAL REPORT ON FORM 20-F 4.4 REAL ESTATE AND EQUIPMENT We occupy, as an owner or tenant, a large number of buildings, production sites, laboratories and service sites around the world. There are two distinct types of sites with different sizes and features: production and assembly sites dedicated to our various businesses; sites that house research and innovation activities and support functions, which cover a specific region and all businesses. A significant portion of assembly and research activities are carried out in Europe and China for all of our businesses. We also have operating subsidiaries and production and assembly sites in Canada, the United States, Mexico, Brazil and India. At December 31, 2007, our total production capacity was equal to approximately 361,000 sq. meters and the table below shows the geographic region by business segment of such production capacity. We believe that these properties are in good condition and meet the needs and requirements of the Groups current and future activity and do not present an exposure to major environmental risks that could impact the Groups earnings. The environmental issues that could affect how these properties are used are mentioned in Section 5.12 of this annual report. ALCATEL-LUCENT, PRODUCTION CAPACITY AT DECEMBER 31, 2007 In thousands of m Carrier Enterprise Services TOTAL Europe 4 214 North America 0 69 Asia-Pacific 0 78 Total 4 361 We are present in 130 countries and have approximately 800 sites, the most important of which are as follows: PRODUCTION/ASSEMBLY SITES Country China France France Poland United States United States Site Shanghai Calais Eu Bydgoszcz North Andover Columbus Ownership Full ownership Full ownership Full ownership Full ownership Lease Lease 2007 ANNUAL REPORT ON FORM 20-F - 23 RESEARCH AND INNOVATION AND SUPPORT SITES Country Germany Germany Austria Belgium Brazil Canada China Spain United States United States United States United States United States United States France France France France France India India Italy Mexico Netherlands United Kingdom Singapore Site Stuttgart Nuremberg Vienna Anvers So Paulo Ottawa Shanghai Pudong Madrid San Francisco Daly City Dallas Plano Whippany Naperville Lisle Murray Hill Villarceaux Vlizy Lannion Paris-La Botie Orvault Bangalore Chennai Vimercate Cuautitlan Izcalli Hilversum Swindon Singapore Ownership Lease Lease Full ownership Lease Full ownership Lease Full ownership Lease Lease Full ownership Full ownership Full ownership Full ownership Full ownership Lease Lease Full ownership Lease Full ownership Lease Lease Lease Full ownership Lease Lease Lease Multicore The multicore division offers core networking products that extend from classic switching systems, where we have a leading market position supporting approximately one quarter of the worlds installed lines, to IP next-generation core offerings for fixed, mobile and convergent operators. We have deployed our IP/NGN products in more than 260 fixed and mobile networks, and we are involved in more than 25 IMS network transformation projects. However, carrier migration to these IMS-based nextgeneration networks has been slower than expected and growth in our next-generation core networking business has not been sufficient to offset the secular decline in classic switching. Consequently, we are making additional refinements that will further narrow our core NGN portfolio and allow us to leverage common multimedia capabilities and IP-based infrastructure for both fixed and mobile next-generation networks. 5.3 ENTERPRISE SEGMENT Our enterprise business segment provides software, hardware and services that interconnect networks, people, processes and knowledge. The portfolio includes: secure converged communication infrastructure offering total continuous service for voice, local, wide and wireless area networks; personalized tools for collaboration, customer service and mobility; communication-enabled business process solutions designed to improve execution and service delivery; product offerings that provide context-aware, content-driven knowledge sharing across any access. The enterprise business is a segment where we believe we can stimulate growth. We created a plan to improve profitability and reposition this business as part of the October initiative. Specifically, we are reorganizing and adding resources to our sales force in order to increase our share of the enterprise market. In 2007 the enterprise segment repositioned itself to better align its resources with market opportunities and enhanced its portfolio through two acquisitions and organic growth. In May, we acquired NetDevices, a developer of services gateway products for enterprise branch networks, based in California. NetDevices has a market recognized, innovative and flexible enterprise networking platform known as a Unified Service Gateway (USG) which is designed to reduce the cost and complexity of managing branch office networks. In December 2007, we acquired Informiam LLC, a privately-held U.S.-based company and a pioneer in software that optimizes customer service operations through real-time business performance management. Informiam is now a business unit within Genesys. Throughout 2007 we added to our security product offerings. In April we introduced the OmniAccess 3500 Nonstop Laptop Guardian, the first in a series of enterprise security products developed by Bell Labs for mobile networks. Also in April, we introduced the OmniAccess SafeGuard, an access control device. In December, we introduced the second Bell Labs enterprise security product the OmniAccess 8550 WebServices Gateway, a network appliance that enforces policies in real-time, provides the ability to create the audit trail necessary to meet corporate governance obligations and supports effective business process automation (including on-line business-to-business web services deployed on a services oriented architecture). We also enhanced our voice and data infrastructure products by scaling the OmniPCX Enterprise to support 100,000 users, launching MyInstant Communicator, and providing clients on the move with dual-mode Nokia handsets. We enhanced our customer care capabilities by launching the OmniTouch premium edition for the North American midmarket the offer combines the advanced technology of the Genesys solution with the simplicity of OmniTouch. In December Genesys acquired Informiam LLC, a broader reporting and analytical offering for the entire customer service chain. 2007 ANNUAL REPORT ON FORM 20-F - 43 Stock options granted by foreign subsidiaries Until 2000 Alcatel USA Inc. (which later became Alcatel-Lucent Holding Inc.) had established its own option plans for executives of our U.S. and Canadian companies which options were exercisable for ADSs. Under these plans, at December 31, 2007 8,229,477 options remain outstanding. In addition, option plans of U.S. and Canadian companies acquired by Alcatel-Lucent are exercisable for Alcatel-Lucent shares or ADSs. There remain outstanding 4,572,274 unexercised options as of December 31, 2007, pursuant to these option plans. The details at December 31, 2007 of the outstanding options granted by U.S. companies (including those issued by Lucent before the business combination between Alcatel and Lucent) and Canadian companies are set forth in Note 23d of the consolidated financial statements included elsewhere in this document. When the options are exercised, we use treasury shares (for Packet Engines, Xylan, Internet Devices Inc., DSC and Genesys), or we issue new ADSs (for Lucent Technologies Inc., Astral Point, Telera, iMagic TV, Timetra and Spatial Wireless). 44 - 2007 ANNUAL REPORT ON FORM 20-F OPERATING AND FINANCIAL REVIEW AND PROSPECTS Forward-looking information This Form 20-F, including the discussion of our Operating and Financial Review and Prospects, contains forward-looking statements based on beliefs of our management. We use the words anticipate, believe, expect, may, intend, should, plan, project, or similar expressions to identify forward-looking statements. Such statements reflect our. Such forward-looking statements include, but are not limited to, the forecasts and targets set forth in this Form 20-F, such as the discussion in Chapter 4 Information about the Group and below in this Chapter 6 under the heading Outlook for 2008 with respect to (i) our projection that the 2008 global telecommunications equipment and related services market should be flat to slightly up at a constant /U.S.$ exchange rate and slightly down at current exchange rates, (ii) the implementation of a more selective pricing approach and our product cost reduction program that would enable us to improve our gross margin, (iii) our ability to progress our fixed costs reduction program, (iv) our expectation that we will incur a loss from operating activities before restructuring costs, impairment of assets, gain/(loss) on disposal of consolidated entities and post-retirement benefit plan amendment (excluding the negative, non-cash impacts of Lucents purchase price allocation which are expected to be approximately (125) million in the first quarter of 2008, and (v) under the heading Contractual obligations and off-balance sheet contingent commitments with respect to the amount we would be required to pay in the future pursuant to our existing contractual obligations and off-balance sheet contingent commitments, and (vi) the level of capital expenditures in 2008. 6.3 RESULTS OF OPERATIONS BY BUSINESS SEGMENT FOR THE YEAR ENDED DECEMBER 31, 2007 COMPARED TO THE YEAR ENDED DECEMBER 31, 2006 The following discussion takes into account our results of operations under IFRS for the year ended December 31, 2007, (i) including Lucents results of operations starting on December 1, 2006, (ii) excluding the businesses transferred to Thales, and (iii) treating the business segments established after the business combination with Lucent as if they were effective on January 1, 2006. Since October 31, 2007 and the announcement of the reorganisation of our Carrier segment, we no longer manage this segment according to three business groups (Wireline, Wireless and Convergence). The following comments are therefore provided for the continuity of analysis for full year 2007 and may not be provided as such in future reports. 2007 and 2006. (In millions of euros) 2007 TOTAL REVENUES Of which: - Wireline - Wireless - Convergence Income (loss) from operating activities before restructuring costs, impairment of assets, gain/(loss) on disposal of consolidated entities and post-retirement benefit plan amendment Capital expenditures Carrier 12,819 6,003 5,287 1,529 Enterprise 1,562 Services 3,173 Other Total Group 238 17,792 (752) 673 131 93 122 40 (208) 36 (707) 842 54 - 2007 ANNUAL REPORT ON FORM 20-F 2006 TOTAL REVENUES Of which: - Wireline - Wireless - Convergence Income (loss) from operating activities before restructuring costs, impairment of assets and gain/(loss) on disposal of consolidated entities Capital expenditures Carrier 8,989 4,463 3,049 1,477 Enterprise 1,420 Services 1,721 Other Total Group 152 12,282 393 473 109 84 195 29 (10) 98 687 684 Carrier Segment Carrier segment revenues were 12,819 million for 2007 compared with 8,989 million for 2006. The increase is due to the inclusion of twelve months of Lucent, and to a lesser degree the UMTS business acquired from Nortel, in results of operations for 2007, while our 2006 results include only one month of Lucents results. A key development within the carrier market is the transformation of networks to a high-bandwidth, full IP architecture. While that IP transformation has had positive impacts across our carrier business, those impacts have been more pronounced in wireline than in wireless. For example, increased shipments of our IP-based products helped drive our broadband access business in 2007, when we shipped 33 million DSL lines and counted more than 170 customers for our IP-based products. However, growth in that market slowed as the year progressed, reflecting high market penetration rates and the somewhat slower than expected transition to new GPON technology. The demand for metro and long haul DWDM optical networks to support high-bandwidth requirements for IP video services, including IPTV, was a key contributor to growth in both our terrestrial and submarine optics business. Our IP service routing business was up 33% in 2007, excluding reseller sales, and reached a milestone of U.S.$ 1 billion in revenues for the year, while our multi-service wide-area-network switching business continued its long-term decline. In total, our wireline revenues were 6,003 million in 2007 compared with 4,463 million in 2006. The increase is largely due to the inclusion of twelve months of Lucents results of operations for 2007, while our 2006 results include only one month of Lucents results. In our convergence business in 2007 our core circuit switch business reflected the ongoing long-term decline that dominates carrier spending for that legacy technology. While that legacy market continued its decline, revenues in our next-generation core networking business remained too small to offset the declining legacy business. Our convergence revenues were 1,529 million in 2007 compared with 1,477 million in 2006. All of the increase was due to the inclusion of twelve months of Lucents results of operations for 2007, while our 2006 results include only one month of Lucents results. On the wireless side, a growing number of subscribers on CDMA and GSM networks continued to drive higher traffic volumes, spending for capacity, and, in some cases, additional footprint. However, both of these businesses operate in mature markets that have started to decline, although revenues in our GSM business grew considerably as 2007 progressed, due to a refreshed product portfolio. 2007 was a year of investment for our W-CDMA business as we took three portfolios one from historical Alcatel, one from Lucent and one from our acquisition of Nortels UMTS radio access assets and converged them into one portfolio. We have completed the convergence from three platforms to two, and will complete the move to one converged platform, at least for the radio network controller, in 2008. In total, our wireless revenues were 5,287 million in 2007 compared with 3,049 million in 2006. The increase is due to the inclusion of twelve months of Lucents results of operations in 2007, while our 2006 results included only one month of Lucents results. The carrier segment had a loss from operating activities before restructuring costs, impairment of assets, gain/(loss) on disposal of consolidated entities and post-retirement benefit plan amendment of 752 million in 2007 compared with income of 393 million in 2006. This decrease resulted from competitive pricing pressures that impacted our gross profit, from investments in current products and platforms that we will eventually discontinue, from 98 million that we recognized in cost of sales due to the problems we experienced on a large W-CDMA construction contract and from the negative, non-cash impact of purchase accounting entries resulting from the Lucent business combination which more than offset Lucents contribution to revenues and gross margin. Enterprise Segment Enterprise segment revenues were 1,562 million for 2007, an increase of 10% over revenues of 1,420 million for 2006. Part of the increase was due to the inclusion of twelve months of Lucents results of operations for 2007, while our 2006 results include only one month of Lucents results, but the impact of Lucents results on this segment was much smaller than it was on either the carrier or services segments. 2007 revenues showed strength across all parts of the enterprise business, with particularly strong gains in our data business and our contact center business, where we added more than 200 new customers during the year. There was also continued good momentum in the migration to IP-based telephony systems. Key growth regions were Europe and Asia. Enterprise segment income from operating activities before restructuring costs, impairment of assets, gain/(loss) on disposal of consolidated entities and post-retirement benefit plan amendment was 131 million in 2007, compared with 109 million in the same period last year. The increase was largely due to higher revenues in 2007. 2007 ANNUAL REPORT ON FORM 20-F - 55 Services Segment Revenues in the services segment were 3,173 million in 2007, compared with 1,721 million in 2006. Nearly all of the increase is attributable to the inclusion of twelve months of Lucents results of operations for 2007, while our 2006 results include only one month of Lucents results. Additionally, the transformation of networks to an all-IP architecture has increased carrier spending for our network integration and transformation capabilities. Also, growth in our outsourced network operations services and professional services reflected an ongoing shift in the services market from traditional product-attached deployment and maintenance-type services to integration, network operations and other managed services. The services segment had income from operating activities before restructuring costs, impairment of assets, gain/(loss) on disposal of consolidated entities and post-retirement benefit plan amendment of 122 million in 2007 compared with income of 195 million in 2006. The decline reflects increased costs associated with new network operations contracts, a shift in the mix of services revenues and the negative, non-cash impact of purchase accounting entries resulting from the Lucent business combination. 2007 ANNUAL REPORT ON FORM 20-F - 57 Income (loss) Before Tax, Related Reduction of Goodwill and Discontinued Operations. Income (loss) before tax, related reduction of goodwill and discontinued operations was a loss of 256 million in 2006 compared to income of 1,001 million in 2005. Income Tax (Expense) Benefit. Income tax (expense) benefit was a net benefit of 42 million in 2006 compared to a net expense of 146 million in 2005. The net income tax benefit for 2006 resulted from a current income tax expense of 71 million (compared with a current income tax expense of 48 million in 2005) more than offset by a deferred income tax benefit of 113 million mainly due to the amortization for one month of Lucents intangible assets resulting from the purchase price accounting entries made in connection with the Lucent business combination that are not deductible for tax purposes (compared with a deferred income tax charge of 98 million in 2005). Income (Loss) from Continuing Operations. Loss from continuing operations was 219 million compared to income of 855 million in 2005. Income (Loss) from Discontinued Operations. Income from discontinued operations was 158 million in 2006 corresponding mainly to the businesses that will be transferred to Thales in 2007 (as discussed above and in Note 3 of our consolidated financial statements) compared to income generated primarily by those businesses of 108 million in 2005. Minority Interests. Minority interests were 45 million in 2006 compared to 41 million in 2005, due primarily to higher results from Alcatel Shanghai Bell. Net Income (Loss) Attributable to the Equity Holders of the Parent. As a result of the foregoing, we recorded a net loss (Group share) of 106 million in 2006 compared to a net income of 922 million in 2005. 6.5 RESULTS OF OPERATIONS BY BUSINESS SEGMENT FOR THE YEAR ENDED DECEMBER 31, 2006 COMPARED TO THE YEAR ENDED DECEMBER 31, 2005 Introduction. The following discussion takes into account our results of operations under IFRS for the year ended December 31, 2006, (i) including Lucents results of operation starting on December 1, 2006, (ii) excluding the businesses to be transferred to Thales, (iii) treating the business segments established after the business combination with Lucent as if they were effective on January 1, 2006 and (iv) taking into account the effect of the change in accounting policies on employee benefits with retroactive effect from January 1, 2005. In addition, the following discussion takes into account our results of operations for the year ended December 31, 2005 which have been re-presented, (i) treating the business segments established after the business combination with Lucent as if they were effective on January 1, 2005, (ii) excluding the businesses to be transferred to Thales, which are presented as discontinued activities and (iii) taking into account the effect of the change in accounting policies on employee benefits with retroactive effect from January 1, 2005. 2006 and 2005. 98 - 2007 ANNUAL REPORT ON FORM 20-F Internal control The Audit and Finance Committee ensures that internal procedures for collecting and verifying financial information are in place to ensure the reliability of this information. The head of internal audit within the Group periodically reports to the committee on the results of the work of his department. In addition, twice a year the committee reviews the Groups internal audit plan and the operation and organization of the Internal Audit Department. The committee is consulted when necessary on the selection of the internal audit manager and on his eventual replacement. The committee examines all complaints, alerts or other reports, including those on an anonymous basis, that reveal a potential malfunction in the financial and consolidation processes set up within the Group. Our Audit and Finance Committee meets periodically with our Chief Compliance Officer to check the adequacy of our compliance programs, any significant violations of these programs and the corrective measures taken by us. Financial position Our Audit and Finance Committee also reviews our indebtedness and our capitalization and possible changes in this capitalization, as well as all financial or accounting matters presented to it by the Chairman of the Board or the Chief Financial Officer (such as risk hedging or centralized cash management). It examines the risks to which the Group may be exposed (and the measures taken by senior management to mitigate their effects) and the Groups significant off-balance sheet commitments. It also reviews financial transactions having a significant impact on the Groups accounts, such as issuance of securities in excess of 400 million. Statutory Auditors Our Audit and Finance Committee oversees the selection process for our Statutory Auditors and makes a recommendation on such auditors to the Board. Assignments that do not pertain to the audit of our accounts, or that are neither incidental nor directly supplemental to our audit, but which are not incompatible with the functions of the Statutory Auditors must be authorized by the Audit and Finance Committee, regardless of their scope. The committee ensures that these assignments do not violate the provisions of article L. 822.11 of the French Commercial Code. It also reviews and determines the independence of the Statutory Auditors and expresses an opinion on the amount of their fees for the audit of the accounts. Based on the total amount of the fees paid for the audit of our accounts during a given fiscal year, our committee sets the level(s) of fees beyond which the Committee must give a specific authorization for previously authorized assignments. The Committees work in 2007 and early 2008 The members of the Audit and Finance Committee met six times in 2007. Their attendance rate at these meetings was 96%. In 2007, the Audit and Finance Committee conducted a review of the year-end financial statements for the year ended December 31, 2006 and the half-year consolidated financial statements for 2007 prepared under IFRS and and reconciled to U.S. GAAP. It also reviewed the quarterly financial statements for the Group based on IFRS and the year-end parent company financial statements based on French GAAP. To prepare for this review, it relied on the work of the Disclosure Committee created to meet the requirements of the Sarbanes-Oxley Act in order to ensure the disclosure of reliable information about the Group. At each of its meetings, the Audit and Finance Committee was briefed by the Chief Financial Officer and the Statutory Auditors and examined, in the Auditors presence, the key points discussed with the Chief Financial Officer at the time of preparation of the financial statements. At the beginning of the year, the budget and financial forecasts for 2007 were presented. On several occasions, the Committee also discussed the risks specific to certain large contracts. With regard to accounting principles, the committee reviewed the option offered by an amendment to IAS 19 Employee benefits for recognizing actuarial gains and losses and an adjustment arising from asset ceiling, net of deferred taxes, in the period in which they occur, outside the income statement. It also reviewed the consequences of applying SFAS 158 Employers accounting for defined benefit pension and other post-retirement plans on deferred taxes. The Committee approved the way the segment information should be presented. In addition, it provided information for the Boards decisions regarding the general guidelines for allocating Lucents pension fund assets and the appointment of the members of the advisory committee charged with overseeing the management of these assets (Pension Benefits Investment Committee). It studied the new provisions of the U.S. securities laws that eliminates the need to reconcile, under certain circumstances, accounts prepared according to IFRS with U.S. GAAP standards. Our Audit and Finance Committee received the Internal Audit departments annual report for 2006 as well as the internal audit plan for 2007. In the context of its review of the internal audits, the Committee was briefed by the Internal Audit department and, together with it, analyzed the departments resources. At regular intervals, the committee monitored the progress made regarding the certification required by Article 404 of the Sarbanes-Oxley Act. On several occasions, it was briefed by the General Counsel about developments in the Costa Rica, Taiwan and Kenya matters (see Section 6.10, Legal matters). Finally, the committee implemented a new financial alert procedure as required by the Sarbanes-Oxley Act, while at the same time complying with the requirements of the Commission nationale de linformatique et des liberts or CNIL, the French authority charged with the enforcement of data privacy laws. f/ Deferred taxes Deferred tax assets relate primarily to tax loss carry forwards and to deductible temporary differences between reported amounts and the tax bases of assets and liabilities. The assets relating to the tax loss carry forwards are recognized if it is probable that the Group will generate future taxable profits against which these tax losses can be set off. At December 31, 2007, deferred tax assets were 1,232 million of which 675 million related to the United States and 404 million to France (1,692 million at December 31, 2006 of which 746 million related to the United States and 372 million to France and 1,768 million at December 31, 2005, of which 850 million related to the United States and 369 million to France). Evaluation of the Groups capacity to utilize tax loss carry forwards relies on significant judgment. The Group analyzes the positive and negative elements of certain economic factors that may affect our business in the foreseeable future and past events to conclude as to the probability of utilization in the future of these tax loss carry forwards, which also consider the factors indicated in note 1n. This analysis is carried out regularly in each tax jurisdiction where significant deferred tax assets are recorded. If future taxable results are considerably different from those forecast that support recording deferred tax assets, the Group will be obliged to revise downwards or upwards the amount of the deferred tax assets, which would have a significant impact on Alcatel-Lucent's balance sheet and net income (loss). As a result of the business combination with Lucent, 2,395 million of net deferred tax liabilities have been recorded as of December 31, 2006, resulting from the temporary differences generated by the differences between the fair valuation of assets and liabilities acquired (mainly intangible assets, such as acquired technologies) and their corresponding tax bases. These deferred tax liabilities will be reduced in future Group income statements as and when such differences are amortized. The remaining deferred tax liabilities related to the purchase price allocation of Lucent as of December 31, 2007 are 1,629 million. As prescribed by IFRSs, Alcatel-Lucent had a twelve-month period to complete the purchase price allocation resulting from the Lucent transaction and to determine the amount of deferred tax assets related to the carry-forward of Lucents unused tax losses that should be recognized in the financial statements of the combined company. If any additional deferred tax assets attributed to the combined companys unrecognized tax losses existing as of the transaction date are recognized in future financial statements, the tax benefit will be included in the income statement. Goodwill will also be reduced (resulting in an expense) for that part of the deferred tax assets recognized relating to Lucents tax losses. On the other hand, as a result of the business combination, a former Alcatel entity may consider that it becomes probable that it will recover its own tax losses not recognized as a deferred tax asset before the business combination. For example, an entity may be able to utilize the benefit of its own unused tax losses against the future taxable profit of the Lucent business. In such cases, Alcatel-Lucent would recognize a deferred tax asset but would not include it as part of the accounting for the business combination. It could therefore have a positive impact on Alcatel-Lucent future net results. (402) (2) 231 (173) 3 (4) (16) (29) (19) (16) 6 544 126 (82) 541 368 21 (61) (34) (132) 119 (19) 24 (69) 137 (19) 42 (51) As indicated in note 1u, certain marketable securities previously included in the category of financial assets at fair value through profit or loss are now designated as financial assets available for sale, further to the Fair Value Option amendment to IAS 39 Financial Instruments : Recognition and Measurement. The impact of this change on other financial income (loss), had it been applied in 2005, is presented in the above represented column. Impairment loss of 23 million on the Avanex shares recorded in the first quarter of 2005 due to an unfavorable change in market price. Mainly related to Lucent pension credit for 2006 and 2007 (refer to note 25). Net gain on disposal of Draka Comteq BV shares for 74 million during the fourth quarter of 2007. Net gain on disposal of Nexans shares for 69 million during the first quarter of 2005 and net gain on disposal of Mobilrom shares for 45 million during the second quarter of 2005. 2006: of which a loss of 18 million related to the adjustment of the conversion ratio of Lucent's series A and B convertible debentures (refer to note 24c) in the fourth quarter of 2006. Of which 15 million relates to an interest charge recorded in other financial loss in the third quarter 2006, which is due to a late payment of a debt relating to a tax dispute. 2007: of which in the first quarter 2007, a loss of 12 million related to the early redemption of the 8% convertible debenture (refer to note 24). This loss was computed in accordance with IAS 32 AG33 and AG34 requirements (see note 1m). Interactions between IAS 32 and IAS 39 and accounting issues related to early redemption of compound financial instruments are being currently analyzed by IFRIC. A future IFRIC interpretation could potentially lead us to revise our current accounting treatment. (2) (3) (4) (5) Note 9 Income tax and related reduction of goodwill a/ Analysis of income tax (charge) benefit and related reduction of goodwill. (In millions of euros) Reduction of goodwill related to deferred tax assets initially unrecognized (2) Current income tax (charge) benefit Deferred taxes related to the purchase price allocation for the Lucent transaction (1) Recognition of deferred tax asset initially unrecognized at Lucent closing date Deferred tax (charge) related to the post-retirement benefit plan amendment (2) (3) Other deferred income tax (charge) benefit, net Deferred tax (charge) benefit, net Income tax (charge) benefit and related reduction of goodwill (2) Mainly related to Lucent business combination (refer to note 3) Land (1) (12) (1) (35) 239 (2) 1 (96) (21) (2) 161 Buildings (55) (1) (79) 28 (49) (161) 489 (18) (14) (105) (44) (11) 11 (52) (17) 577 Other (35) (12) (59) (24) (2) (31) 50 (1) (47) (49) (21) (3) 2 (4) (43) 153 Total 1,(284) (1) (162) 7 1,(250) (2) (303) 1,015 (34) 4 1,(416) (94) (131) 18 (103) (22) 1,428 Note 15 Finance leases and operating leases a/ Finance leases (IFRS) Property, plant and equipment held under finance leases have a net carrying amount of 0 million at December 31, 2007 (45 million at December 31, 2006 and 54 million at December 31, 2005). Such finance leases relate primarily to plant and equipment. Future minimum lease payments under non-cancelable finance leases are shown in note 31a Off balance sheet commitments. The main finance lease contract concerns a company consolidated proportionately at 51%, Alda Marine, which leases four vessels as part of its activity of laying and maintaining submarine cables. The net carrying amount of these vessels recognized in property, plant and equipment was 45 million at December 31, 2006 and 53 million at December 31, 2005). The corresponding obligation to pay future lease payments was 51 million at December 31, 2006 and 59 million at December 31, 2005. The option to purchase the vessels was exercised during 2007 by Alda Marine. b/ Operating leases Future minimum lease payments under non-cancelable operating leases are shown in note 31a - Off balance sheet commitments. Future minimum sublease rentals income expected to be received under non-cancelable operating subleases were 180 million at December 31, 2007 (202 million at December 31, 2006 and 27 million at December 31, 2005). Lease payments under operating leases recognized as an expense in the income statement are analyzed as follows: (In millions of euros) 2007 Lease payments - minimum Lease payments - conditional Sublease rental income Total recognized in the income statement (22) (14) (10) 129 2007 ANNUAL REPORT ON FORM 20-F - 191 Note 16 Share in net assets of equity affiliates and joint ventures a/ Share in net assets of equity affiliates 198 - 2007 ANNUAL REPORT ON FORM 20-F December 31, 2005 Number of ordinary shares issued (share capital) (1) Treasury shares Number of shares in circulation Weighting effect of share issues for stock options exercised Weighting effect of treasury shares Weighting effect of share issues in respect of business combinations Number of shares used for calculating basic earnings per share Number of shares 1,428,541,640 (58,920,710) 1,369,620,930 (1,223,804) (402,473) 1,367,994,653 Alcatel-Lucent shares owned by Alcatel-Lucent and other consolidated subsidiaries include remaining exchangeable shares related to the Newbridge transaction and considered as issued for accounting purposes. b/ Capital increase program for employees with subscription stock option plan Under a capital increase program for employees of the Group, approved by the Board of Directors on March 7, 2001, 91,926 Class A shares were issued at a price of 50 per share (all Class A shares are now referred to as ordinary shares). Each share subscribed included the right to receive three options, each exercisable for one Class A share. 275,778 options were granted and are exercisable during the one-year period from July 1, 2004 until July 1, 2005 or from the end of the unavailability period set by article 163 bis C of the General Tax Code (4 years from July 1, 2004), for the beneficiaries who were employees of a member of the Group whose registered office is located in France at the time the options were granted. c/ Capital stock and additional paid-in capital At December 31, 2007, the capital stock consisted of 2,317,441,420 ordinary shares of nominal value 2 (2,309,679,141 ordinary shares of nominal value 2 at December 31, 2006 and 1,428,541,640 ordinary shares of nominal value 2 at December 31, 2005). During 2007, increases in capital stock and additional paid-in capital amounted to 44 million. These increases related to the following transactions: issuance of 2,755,287 shares for 18 million, as a result of the exercise of options and warrants (including additional paidin capital of 13 million) ; conversion of 4,506,992 convertible bonds into Alcatel-Lucent shares generating a capital increase of 25 million (including additional paid-in capital of 16 million) ; redemption of 500,000 bonds redeemable for Alcatel-Lucent shares in connection with the acquisition of TiMetra Inc in 2003 to cover stock options, generating a capital increase of 4 million (including additional paid-in capital of 3 million) ; and other increases for 4 million. During 2006, increases in capital stock and additional paid-in capital amounted to 8,942 million. These increases related to the following transactions: issuance of 878,139,615 shares related to the business combination with Lucent for 8,922 million (including additional paid-in capital of 7,166 million); issuance of 2,697,886 shares for 20 million, as a result of the exercise of 2,697,886 options (including additional paid-in capital of 11 million); redemption of 300,000 bonds redeemable for Alcatel-Lucent shares in connection with the acquisition of Spatial Wireless in 2004 to cover stock options, generating a capital increase of 3 million (including additional paid-in capital of 3 million). During 2005, increases in capital stock and additional paid-in capital amounted to 662 million. These increases related to the following transactions: issuance of 1,855,913 shares for 12 million, as a result of the exercise of 1,855,913 options (including additional paid-in capital of 8 million); redemption of 450,000 bonds redeemable for Alcatel shares in connection with the acquisition of Imagic TV in 2003 and Spatial Wireless in 2004 to cover stock options generating a capital increase of 5 million (including additional paid-in capital of 4 million); redemption of 120,780,266 ORANE notes issued in 2002 and redeemable for new or existing Alcatel shares, generating a capital increase of 645 million, including additional paid-in capital of 403 million. In order to maintain or adjust the capital structure, the Group can adjust the amount of dividends paid to shareholders (see note 22), or repurchase its own shares (see note 23f) or issue new shares, or issue convertible bonds or similar instruments (see note 24). The Group is not subject to any constraints on equity capital imposed by third parties.. Samsung ES17 Classic V3 0 Schc10 25PT4457 58 M1710A-BZ SSD522SW WZ3 16-2 At-G02 HM80-155267G Squeezebox FS-1000 Vm200 SC-PM45 RHT2660DA MHC-RG444S Compex-2 BAR988HG Scanmaker 5800 LUX S Leica R5 DVR500 UE-40C5100 DCD970KL Dyson DC18 M1001 AG-790A Pfaff 1197 Raychart 425 Digimax V700 USR8004 1800-911 S3600 VGN-FS550 Server CT-WM77R 310BVR Moviefactory 5 Tridata SCX-7645P 514C V2 SD700 IS KMD-860R DCR-B5000 Later GR-D240E GW76N-SX Ii 48 SRW224P LE40A430 Meccano 1 DN-V310 MG-10 CD-3125R Nvvp30 Services C 303 DEH-1550B F801S KX-TG5561M 7 GO TH-42PX60 Archos 405 DSP-R995 MDX-C800REC R-V1105 PSP2 5 630-CI Motorola T192 HD 600 Only Coupe 1176LN RFG297aawp XAA Ericsson A8I Precision LA46M81BDX Aficio 1027 LX200 YST-SW030 WAG200G-EU 530 IR 110 Plus 311 2 Pathfinder-2003 Pqg31 Touch USB AVR 5500 Optio S5I Stylus 300 B20CS50SNW 125 S Miele S558 BD-C8500 MP X38 T57800 Review MS-7510 DSC-H20 Scenic 500 SU

Alcatel-lucent Speedy Touch PRO Here you can find all about Alcatel-lucent Speedy Touch PRO like manual and other informations. For example: review. Alcatel-lucent Speedy Touch PRO manual (user guide) is ready to download for free. On the bottom of page users can write a review. If you own a Alcatel-lucent Speedy Touch PRO please write about it to help other people. [ Report abuse or wrong photo | Share your Alcatel-lucent Speedy Touch PRO photo ] Manual Preview of first few manual pages (at low quality). Check before download. Click to enlarge. Alcatel-lucent Speedy Touch PRO User reviews and opinions Comments posted on are solely the views and opinions of the people posting them and do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of us. Documents Service Providers are proactively implementing initiatives to improve their ability to compete, generating new services in a cost effective manner. Partnering for Change By H. Derrey, R. Daghigh, A. Henrotte, H. Kurscheidt How to control risk, ensure performance and benet from the best practice of other operators, when performing a Network Transformation. Alcatel-Lucents regional IP Transformation Centers take the uncertainty out of network transformation, allowing service providers to live-test new systems and services before deployment. Letter from our CMO, John Giere. 85 D Evaluate competitive transformation technologies evaluate introduction Staying Ahead of the Competition Requires Acuity By M. Lapierre Welcome to the inaugural issue of Enriching Communications. We hope you nd our new quarterly publication reective of the new Alcatel-Lucent with a focus on innovation and strategies for the industrys Competitive Transformation in the 21st Century. Telecom service providers must transform themselves to deliver new, network based, personalized and blended services that are highly valued by enterprises and consumers in order to survive in todays hyper-competitive marketplace. This is true in both mature and fast growing economies where leading providers recognize the need to change their business model from subscription to service-based, and business focus from technology to end-user. They understand the need to fully leverage their key assets, and especially their network to maximize their competitive advantage. Competitive Transformation is a customized path to protable growth through fundamental changes to network, services and business models in order to deliver more valuable user-centric services. The Alcatel-Lucent Acuity Transformation Framework, the industrys rst global transformation framework, has been developed to help our customers effectively achieve Competitive Transformation. The Acuity Transformation Framework bridges the gap between todays networks and an enhanced communication experience, providing the personalized services blending, Quality of Experience, and agility expected by end users: a exibility that todays network and service delivery silos are challenged to deliver. Driving the Adoption Curve examines market trends identied through our primary market research and explains what kind of consumer and enterprise blended services will propel the transformation. Jane Zweig, CEO of the Shosteck Group shares her view of this market dynamic in her column Whos Transforming Whom? The Acuity Transformation Framework is divided into three fundamental parts, as further explored in Service Providers Competitive Response: Network, Services and Business Transformation. In addition, it provides competitive new solutions that address business diversication in Content, Advertisement sponsoring and more. Barbara Krasner is Director, Customer Advocacy Marketing, Alcatel-Lucent CMO, Whippany, NJ, USA. Email: [email protected] Constanza Torres, responsible for the referenced primary market research, is Senior Manager, Strategic Marketing, Alcatel-Lucent CMO, Murray Hill, NJ, USA. Email: [email protected] k competitive transformation Telstras New World Order Telstra has embarked on a three-to-ve year transformation that will turn the companys 1-click, 1-touch, 1-button, 1-screen, 1-step vision into a reality. Introduction Sol Trujillo, CEO of Telstra, recently said if you put a sign up in front of Telstra today, youd see a sign that says under construction, because a new Telstra is emerging.1 This paper offers a unique perspective on the network transformation that is unfolding behind the Under Construction sign. It also considers the motivations that underpin the transformation strategy, and presents some of the key elements on which that transformation depends. Above all, it provides a glimpse of the new Telstra that is emerging and an insight into the tangible benets that will accrue once the transformation is complete. A visionary transformation uptake, is predicted to increase from 6% in 2005 to 33% in 2010.4 This picture of the future was dened by much more broadband; much more mobility; and a much leaner and more exible network infrastructure, capable of supporting new broadband applications and services. Summarizing these developments, Dan Burns, Telstras Executive Managing Director for Network & Technology, commented: These upgrades are important for future-proong our network over the next ve to ten years. We will be in a solid position to provide customers with access to offerings such as high-speed Internet, telecommuting, videoconferencing and video delivery of services in general all key components of Telstras transformation. Once complete, Telstras new wireline IP core network will support 77 times greater capacity than the legacy network it replaces. It will provide users with more reliable and stable media and telephony services, and expand dramatically the number and range of services any individual customer can use.5 In approaching this complex, nextgeneration network transformation program, Telstra chose to work with only a select number of key partners of which Alcatel-Lucent was one. Sol Trujillo, CEO of Telstra, explained the rationale behind the strategy. We are building partnerships with vendors. We have decided on a strategy where were going to focus on strategic partners not 1,000 partners but just a few, because were about speed, were about efciency and were about cost. 6 Such a partnering strategy is increasing in popularity among carriers transforming their networks, because of a recognition that the traditional method of tendering for every network element and managing a wide variety of vendors is counterproductive, and only serves to increase complexity and expense when considering such a massive change to the network infrastructure. Similar to AT&T and Telefnica, Telstra is using a concerted strategy to achieve economies of scale and purchasing power. Summarizing this 1-click, 1-touch, 1-button, 1-screen, 1-step is the expression Telstra developed to articulate a vision of the future towards which it is rapidly moving. Within this simple phrase, Telstra encapsulated a comprehensive strategy that would ensure the companys future growth and meet the demands of customers who expect a new service experience. What it implied was a wholesale overhaul of the companys network, from a complex set of discrete elements to a more unitary IP-based infrastructure that could support new services and be more efciently managed. Given the extent of this network transformation, it might at rst seem that the company could have more accurately completed the expression of its vision by adding the words one network. The fact that it didnt, however, speaks to a fundamental shift in the companys strategic direction, from a focus on its network to a more customer-centric focus that favors those using its services. New market realities The story of aging networks out of synch with new customer demands and market realities is well known, and Telstras chapter in that story in many ways reads no differently than those of other incumbent operators around the world AT&T, Telefnica, etc. Common to all these service providers is the challenge they face that stems directly from changes to the macroeconomic environment in which they operate, which was characterized by new competition from both new carriers and also from non-traditional sources. The only way forward was for the company to set aggressive targets such as reducing the number of different network platforms from about 330 (as at November 2005) by 60% within three years, and the number of business and operational support systems from about 1,200 (as at November 2005) by 75% in three years.2 These targets can be mapped to the broader trends occurring in the Australian telecommunications market: xed broadband subscribers in Australia increased by 34% in the six months from June to December 2005,3 and the penetration of home networks in Australia, a key indicator of broadband applications 1 The New Telstra: A Transformation Story: Sol Trujillo, Chief Executive Ofcer, Telstra Corporation Limited, Address to the National Press Club in Canberra, 29 June 2006. 2 Source: Telstras strategy for growth media release, dated 15 November 2005. 3 Telstra also reported a full-year number on 10 August 2006 total broadband (retail + wholesale) was up 66.5% for the 05/06 period. 4 IDC Australia, May 2006. 5 The New Telstra, On the Move: A Progress Report on Telstras Network Transformation, Telstra document, 10 July 2006. 6 The New Telstra: A Transformation Story: Sol Trujillo, Chief Executive Ofcer, Telstra Corporation Limited, Address to the National Press Club, Canberra, 29 June 2006. Table 1 illustrates the transformation program announcements and timelines of several Tier 1 service providers. Most transformation programs are multi-year endeavors, extending over anything from ve to nine years. Alcatel-Lucent is the service providers strategic partner of choice in several large transformation programs, including AT&T, Telstra, TNZ and KPN. In this role, Alcatel-Lucent offers worldwide program experience, business consulting and an end-to-end network integration expertise perspective, and is accountable to deliver the promised goals within the time-to-market constraints. Building blocks of transformation The four key areas of investment in transformation are related to: access architecture; core networking; applications; and professional services. Half of the Telcos cumulative transformation CAPEX is allocated to civil works and customer premises equipment such as set-top boxes (STB), residential gateways (RGW), and next-generation handsets. The following sections describe the major building blocks of a transformation initiative. Access and Core architecture Broadband deployment is the common thread across all xed network operators. Fiber-to-the-Home (FTTH) and ADSL represent a strong component of network transformation, Table 2: Operators new service plans driving transformation In xed and mobile access and core modernization, serviceaware aggregation routers and data-aware optical networks have become the preferred aggregation technologies. The serviceaware capability of Alcatel-Lucents service routers has triggered the sharp increase in Alcatel-Lucents share in this market. Mobile operators, who started their network and service transformation later than their xed colleagues, are dedicating CAPEX to rationalizing backhaul, and are gradually shifting to an all-IP core, which includes the migration of their mobile core to an NGN. Once again, service routers and the NGN are used as the unifying agents of transformation. Applications and associated control architecture Table 2 summarizes a number of SP announcements with respect to control plane architecture and applications. BT and KPN are the only operators to announce a denite date for PSTN switch-off. Most operators deploy an overlay NGN/IMS control plane, while simultaneously freezing or reducing TDM investments and migrating customers to the new control plane infrastructure. Incidentally, KPN is one of the rst operators to choose an aggressive cannibalization migration strategy, where they repurpose their existing TDM voice lines for VoIP service. Most Tier 1 carriers seem to agree that IMS is the preferred communication service control plane design. Yet for most operators, the adoption of IMS is only gradual. AT&T, FT, KPN and Cingular are at the forefront of full-scale IMS network deployment. Alcatel-Lucent has market leadership in IMS architecture, which xed and mobile operators view as the starting point for converged multimedia communication services. It preserves value in the network, and provides an efcient framework for service time-to-market, in contrast to the end-to-end Internet service model utilized by Internet competitors. IMS provides network capabilities that enable personalized service delivery with Quality of Service guarantees that can be differentiating assets for telecom operators. Proven ability to integrate end-toend solutions (network + applications + OSS); Experience and capability in customer service migrations: end-to-end methods and procedures, migration tools. As a consequence, a holistic approach, as illustrated in Figure 1, is essential to realize the full benets of transformation. Yet IP Transformation projects are highly complex projects, involving many business and technical challenges: The introduction of new services requires service providers to quickly develop new IP skills and capabilities; The decommissioning of legacy platforms and associated IT platforms is often slowed down by challenging customer migration processes; OPEX3 saving targets can only be reached if operational processes are totally reengineered to fully leverage the new all-IP environment. One strategy to overcome the inherent transformation risks is for service providers to select a partner with: Jere Calmes, Chief Operating Ofcer, Wind Advanced IP technology R&D across multiple platforms to ensure equipment interoperability; 3 Operational Expenditure Figure 2: Pre-integrated Triple Play solution Alcatel-Lucent has close strategic relationships with major service providers undergoing IP transformation, such as Telecom New Zealand, AT&T (USA), KPN (The Netherlands), Wind (Italy) and Telstra (Australia). These customers are taking advantage of Alcatel-Lucents pre-integrated solutions to reduce time-to-market and cost. Wind, a full-service provider (xed and mobile) in Italy, recently decided to implement a Local Loop Unbundling (LLU) project, and to invest in a state-of-the-art IP network to deliver IPTV services, Video on Demand, personal TV, high-speed Internet access and VoIP. Alcatel-Lucent was selected to deploy a turnkey, end-to-end Triple Play solution and is responsible for: Network infrastructure: access, NGN voice, Ethernet aggregation, OSS; End-to-end design and integration; Program management including roll-out of LLU sites; Management of all third parties, including Microsoft (IPTV middleware). TELSTRA With a project so technically complex and challenging, the Integration Lab that we have built with Alcatel-Lucent gives us the condence that, as we move forward with our network transformation, we will be deploying proven, end-to-end solutions. Together with our partners, we will use the lab to maintain a highquality service experience for our customers at all times. Greg Winn, Chief Operating Ofcer, Telstra Bandwidth scaling Congestion avoidance One of the key challenges for operators is to build an infrastructure that is optimized for todays offering and can scale for future needs. The most apparent change brought by Triple Play, in particular due to the video component, is the massive increase in bandwidth to be aggregated and transported in the network. To support video services, the architecture must be optimized for sustained high-bandwidth demand, and it must scale cost-effectively from a basic broadcast TV service offering to a mass-market uptake of Video on Demand (VoD) and Internet video. This gives operators the opportunity to right-size their investment over time to optimize their capital expenditure (CAPEX) investment as their networks evolve. Todays predominant mode of video service is Broadcast TV (BTV). TPSDA incorporates the exibility to optimize for BTV service now, and still scale bandwidth levels to support a full unicast model such as VoD and network-based Personal Video Recording (nPVR) at high concurrency levels. BTV is optimized by implementing multicast packet replication and IGMP proxy multicasting in the BSAN, the BSA, the BSR and the optical layer. Multicasting increases the efciency of the network by reducing the bandwidth and ber requirements for delivering broadcast channels to the subscriber. As video services mature, a higher percentage of unicast trafc will ow into the network, creating a greater bandwidth demand. TPSDA can efciently scale to offer the required capacity, while always being able to give priority to the premium services (IPTV) over other video services (Internet video) in case of congestion: Assuring Quality of Experience for video is not just a matter of provisioning bandwidth capacity. Proper network dimensioning is essential, but not sufcient. A comprehensive approach to congestion avoidance is also needed to meet service quality, availability and cost objectives. In particular, service admission control can be a useful complement to other quality assurance mechanisms to preserve service sessions in progress against the risk of quality degradation due to a network overload (e.g., extreme demand peaks or multiple link failures). In general, admission control only applies to session-oriented services requiring deterministic QoS and bandwidth guarantees to function properly (streaming video and real-time communications over IP). Alcatel-Lucents TPSDA supports both multicast service admission control (i.e., Broadcast TV) and unicast service admission control (e.g., VoD and streaming IP multimedia). A centralized policy control mechanism performs arbitration between service requests made by subscribers and available network resources, and guarantees service delivery when multiple services compete for the same bandwidth. Alcatel-Lucent deploys a centralized broadband policy server to support unied subscriber management and service delivery control for Triple Play. The policy-based authentication, authorization and accounting (AAA) and service admission control1 functions are tightly integrated and centrally administered, to close the loop on service authorization based on the subscriber service prole and network resource availability. For the operator, TPSDA enables the cost-effective and rapid introduction of new services to improve the bottom line, reduce time to revenue, and increase customer satisfaction, while providing full control over the quality of the services that are being delivered to the end users. Lisa Ciangiulli is Senior Marketing Manager, Wireline Business Group, based in Murray Hill, NJ, USA. Email: [email protected] Roland Mestric is Director, Wireline Solution Marketing, Wireline Business Group, based in Villarceaux, France. Email: [email protected] For the end user, TPSDA provides a superior user experience. The scalability and high availability of TPSDA, combined with congestion avoidance mechanisms, effectively deliver a guaranteed Quality of Experience for individual subscribers anytime, anywhere.. On the Road to 3G and Beyond, Alcatel-Lucent Leads the Way By S. Mukerjee, K. Steinert With the broadest, most comprehensive wireless portfolio in the industry, Alcatel-Lucent helps operators transform their networks to support more advanced wireless services, and expand their service offerings into new areas. In the wireless world, service providers, their customers and the vendors that support them are constantly looking toward the next-generation horizon, the services they will nd there, and the technologies that will enable these new services to ourish. In some markets, the next generation is third-generation or 3G, while in other markets operators are already looking toward 4G and beyond. Interestingly, for each operator the next-generation future will be distinct from those of their competitors, and will be dened by a variety of characteristics including business models, target customer sets, relationships with parent companies or partners, spectrum holdings, and a vast array of other factors. As importantly, the road to the next-generation future is different for each operator each has a different starting point and a different ultimate destination, and each road will almost certainly include a variety of stops and detours along the way. The simple truth is that there is no single path to the future of broadband wireless communications. Instead, what operators face is a continuous journey through an ever-changing landscape. What they need is a guide or at least a traveling companion who can help them navigate this landscape, select the best path, and ensure that their journey is a An ideal guide on the road to 3G and beyond Operators that partner with AlcatelLucent can count on having access to the most innovative wireless networking solutions the industry has to offer, regardless of the technology path they have chosen. The strength of our new portfolio goes beyond the combination of products to something much greater. For instance, we have shared technologies and techniques to install W-CDMA and WiMAX components into existing 2G base stations, called Multi-Standard Base Stations, to support complementary 2G, 3G and WiMAX solutions part of AlcatelLucents unique value proposition. IP Key to Mobile Network Evolution As 3G networks become more widespread and mobile data services become increasingly popular, operators are seeing increasing demand for advanced mobile services such as mobile TV, IMS-based blended services, and a variety of mobile content offerings. These services are driving increases in mobile data trafc which are expected to accelerate over time. To address this demand, mobile networks are evolving rapidly, characterized by increasingly powerful radio access networks and multimedia-centric core network architectures. One of the key features of these new networks is their reliance on Internet Protocol (IP)-based radio access network (RAN) and core architectures, as well as converged transport networks that can ensure the quality of the end user experience for these advanced mobile services. One of the great benets of this approach is the ability to leverage the dramatic cost savings that IP/MPLS multi-service backbone networks offer. Additionally, operators are looking to drive IP capabilities closer and closer to the customer, ultimately leading to IP deployed end-to-end throughout the wireless network. Alcatel-Lucents ability to drive the standardization and commercialization of new wireless technologies has grown considerably. We are now in an ideal position to drive the development of emerging wireless technologies such as LTE, Ultra Mobile Broadband (UMB), and further iterations of WiMAX that can help customers remain competitive. The combination of R&D organizations resulting from the merger and acquisition has provided deep pools of expertise in the development of common ATCA1-based platforms, advanced antenna technologies such as multiple input/multiple output (MIMO) and beam forming (a method used to modify signals in an array of multiple antennas to increase the power and quality of signals being directed at a particular mobile device), orthogonal frequency division multiple access (OFDMA) solutions, at-IP (where hierarchical layers in mobile networks are collapsed to remove network bottlenecks), software-dened radio and, of course, spread-spectrum technologies the basis for all 3G standards. In fact, many of the building blocks of tomorrows 4G networks are already being implemented in Alcatel-Lucents commercial 3G and WiMAX solutions today, such as intelligent antenna and beam forming capabilities in its CDMA portfolio, MIMO on its WiMAX platforms, and at-IP solutions in its W-CDMA portfolio with the BSR family of products. users shows that VoIP Solutions is their number one preferred service, with Video Conferencing also ranking in their top 10 preferred services. Transport infrastructures are already evolving to support these new services, and extending these capabilities into the mobile realm looks like a foregone conclusion. These developments bring with them a host of challenges. 1xEV-DO Rev 0 based networks provide high-speed packet data, but are already experiencing the problems noted above, with network bottlenecks appearing as packet data usage grows. With the deployment of 1xEV-DO Rev A networks throughout 2007, the resulting higher speed radio capabilities on the network side will exacerbate these problems. When the initial 1xEV-DO standards were established, the benets and practicality of IP-based transport were not clearly understood. Today, however, the necessity to move to an endto-end IP scheme is increasingly evident with benets ranging from lower cost support for bandwidth-intensive applications to better end-to-end QoS support for latency-sensitive services. The 3GPP2 participants expect additional performance improvements (in latency and QoS) will be seen after attening the network and moving IP to the edge of the RAN, i.e. into the BTS. By using generic IETF 8 protocols (as opposed to 3GPP2 access specic technology) between the RAN 9 elements, co-existence of and interoperability between different air-interface technologies are facilitated. Such a network, based on IP interfaces and IMS services architecture, is the most cost-effective and scalable platform to deliver a wide range of IP-based applications. Introducing IP into the RAN The benets of IP from a transport/ backhaul perspective are fairly obvious. In fact, the various 1xEV-DO standards developed in 3GPP2 have always supported IP transport in the RAN, and now have been extended to encompass CDMA2000 1X as well. The choice of IP transport is strongly motivated by the high cost of T1 leased lines. Secondly, IP is already being adopted in other parts of the network and introducing IP for transport in the RAN unies the network on a single technology, reducing complexity and improving performance. There is also the additional potential for sharing network resources as other access technologies (WiMAX, DSL, etc.) adopt IP for transport. The IMS Core and the RAN 8 Internet Engineering Task Force 9 Radio Access Network The 3GPP2 context of introducing IP into the RAN can be viewed as essentially having two components. The rst is collapsing Layer 2 functions into the Base Station. The second is the extension of IP to the Base Station. The rst step is for the most part a pre-cursor to the second and can be seen as enabling the extension of native IP to the edge of the network. Moving the basic radio resource management functions, Layer 2 mobility management and the paging functions to the base stations avoids centralization (such as with 1xEV-DO & RNC equipped nodes) preventing these nodes from becoming bottlenecks. Mobility management itself is simplied by removing the one additional layer of mobility that exists in a 2-node (RNC-BTS) RAN. The need to distribute Layer 2 functions across base stations becomes even greater when deploying pico (smaller) cells where the numbers of such cells exceeds current macro-cells by at least an order of magnitude. Extending IP to the BTS, offers several advantages. Content may be located, hosted and cached at IP-aware base stations potentially avoiding the use of backhaul for providing some services. IP packets may be inspected at the point of the entry into the network to provide better QoS support. IP packet lters at the point of ingress (as opposed to deeper in the network) ensure that best effort data does not inadvertently preempt real-time trafc. From an over-the-air perspective, schedulers handling the downlink transmission to the mobile can use information in IP headers to ensure adequate QoS support. NGN has been standardized since 3GPP Release 4. There is no change in the PS domain; but major changes are applied in the CS domain. Figure 2: NGN mobile network architecture 12 HSI: High-Speed Internet 13 MGW: Media Gateway 14 UTRAN: UMTS Terrestrial Radio Access Network 15 TISPAN: Telecoms & Internet converged Services & Protocols for Advanced Networks Figure 3: Packet-based backhaul network Introducing IP in the RAN IMS in the network As an alternative to ATM transport, 3GPP specied IP transport in UTRAN14 Release 5. Among the main drivers for this evolution are: High cost of leased lines; ATM-based ADSL xed networks are migrating towards IP/Ethernet transport; The foreseeable increase in bandwidth demands makes the 2 Mbit/s granularity of ATM transport bandwidth very restrictive; Mobile core networks have already begun to migrate towards an IP-based approach. The introduction of IP in the RAN enables transport technology convergence; New technologies (e.g. WiMAX) are emerging. BTS, Node B and WiMAX BS could be collocated in some RAN sites, making shared and exible transmission more and more interesting. In its Release 5, 3GPP extended the NGN concept, by specifying IMS over the PS domain. By relying on a multiservice IP backbone, IMS enables the introduction of innovative multimedia services over mobile networks. In parallel, TISPAN15 proposes a similar initiative for xed networks. Since the whole network is IP aware, it becomes easier to ensure correct service differentiation from the application servers to the end user (or between two end users). Among the rst IMS applications proposed are Instant Messaging (enriched with presence information) and Push over Cellular. However, it is also generally accepted that the scenario observed in xed ADSL networks will be reproduced in mobile networks, i.e., more and more stringent real-time constraints will have to be supported in the network, to enable a massive deployment of VoIP or gaming (both of which imply very stringent constraints in terms of short delay and jitter). During the rst years of IMS deployment, 3G networks will propose these real-time services to a subset of users. Longer-term, when a majority of users is subscribed to Alcatel-Lucent will provide IP transport in the 2007 versions of its BSS and UTRAN. These new nodes offer TDM+IP or ATM+IP mixed modes. This allows coping with mixed networks (i.e. those containing ATM areas and IP areas). Alcatel-Lucent provides solutions to migrate mobile access and backhaul networks towards packet-based networks, including various technologies such as microwave, DSL, IP/MPLS, Ethernet, satellite and optical. Ethernet-enabled RAN nodes can connect directly to the packet-based backhaul network. For TDM-only RAN nodes, trafc can be transported natively using multi-service platforms, or it can be transported over a packet-based backhaul network using pseudo wire technology, as illustrated in Figure 3. IMS, it is foreseeable that some limitations of the current 3G networks will become apparent. Providing VoIP or gaming for everybody will become difcult with a good level of QoS as perceived by the end user. Massive use of VoD16 requires a lot of bandwidth over the radio segment, and HSDPA could be insufcient. Before providing a fully mature, real-time-enabled, broadband mobile network, structural changes are needed in the network. A atter architecture should allow the achievement of a futureproof network. The ultimate mobile architecture evolution: LTE/SAE LTE in brief Much lower latency: the latency radio budget is targeted to be below 10ms; hence very stringent real-time behavior is conceivable; Support of high-speed mobility between cells, up to 350 km/h; A SAE system has a full packet architecture. It is the rst 3GPP system without a CS domain. Communication services are provided over the IMS architecture. Very low end-to-end latency is targeted, for both user and control plane trafc. The number of nodes is reduced. This enables reduced latency, and also simplies IOT20, network management and future evolution. A SAE network supports mobility with legacy 2G/3G networks in the PS domain. Interworking with the legacy CS domain has to be supported. Thanks to a new Release 7 feature called VCC21, a voice call set up in IMS can continue in a legacy CS domain. SAE in brief The radio technology chosen for LTE networks is not merely an incremental improvement or modication of the WCDMA17 radio technology used in UMTS, but a new RAT18 based on OFDM19, similar to the radio technology used by WiMAX. The most important characteristics are: The complexity of Diversity Combining/Soft Hand-Over (i.e., the same signal is sent to the mobile via two different cells) is abandoned, therefore the RNC is no longer required; Much higher throughput: Transmission bandwidth is up to 20 MHz (5MHz in UMTS); Targeted spectrum efciency is 5 bit/s/Hz for downlink, and 2.5bit/s/Hz for uplink; Consequently, the peak rates are 100 Mbit/s/cell for downlink and 50Mbit/s/cell for uplink. The progressive introduction of IP technology in each part of the mobile network is a fundamental enabler, which allows some coherent and end-to-end solutions to be proposed in terms of data handling. Consequently, a set of new, IMS-based services can be offered to the end user. These new services will become more and more bandwidth hungry. The probable migration of voice service to the IP domain is a strong requirement for a low-latency and real-time-capable network. Alcatel-Lucent thinks that the LTE/SAE architecture is the best way to achieve future-proong, by correctly handling data trafc growth, bit rate increases, and the need for stringent real-time capabilities. The new RAT 26 will enable networks to go beyond current limitations in terms of bit rates. A reduced number of nodes will allow very low latency, making real-time services over the packet domain possible for everybody. The IMS environment will benet from these LTE/SAE evolutions. The parallelism between xed and mobile network evolution towards IP will lead to a necessary convergence between the two worlds. From an operators point of view, this will be the way to share some important parts of their infrastructures (service environment, IMS nodes, backbone, aggregation, etc.). From an end user point of view, it will provide the insurance that more or less independent of the type of access he will be able to enjoy the same range of services. Jean-Marc Ballot is member of the CTO team of Alcatel-Lucents Convergence Business Group, Vlizy, France. Email: [email protected] References I. 3GPP TR 23.882: 3GPP System Architecture Evolution; Report on Technical Options and Conclusions. II. Jrome Brouet & Roland Mestric: Mobile Backhaul over Packet Network. III. Nicolas Drevon: IP Transport in UTRAN Global Feature Description. 26 RAT: Radio Access Technology Redening Interpersonal Communication By E. De Boer, L. Thibaut Diversity and simplicity: two diverging end-user requirements which service providers must reconcile. IMS is the architecture designed to do so, joining agile service creation with QoS and security assurance. The entry of new players into the person-to-person communication services market has induced many conicts of interest (Figure 1). All players want to own and keep subscribers. New entrants and incumbent service providers may deploy IP Multimedia Subsystem (IMS) in order to deliver or combine innovative services in new and exible ways (e.g. service blending) over different types of access networks. This article addresses the way incumbent xed, mobile or cable operators may leverage both IMS and existing assets, in order to respond to customer requirements for diversity and simplicity, while mitigating the threat of churn or revenue loss. This is one of the fundamentals of Service Transformation, as explained in the Service Providers Competitive Response article, and part of our Acuity Transformation Framework. Fixed telephony providers are faced with competition from Internet VoIP providers due to the high penetration of xed broadband access, mobile substitution and cable operators (country-specic). Terminal evolutions, including alternative Radio Access Technologies such as WiFi, and operating systems such as Linux, Windows Mobile, etc., open the way for other market players to enter the mobile service arena (Figure 2): Figure 1: Conicts of interest between the different players Hybrid phones (WiFi/2G-3G) offer an alternative connection to third-party operators for delivery of data and VoIP services using ADSL access, for example; Internet players such as Skype, Google-Talk and MSN may turn mobile operators into sole connectivity providers. Skype, Google-Talk and the like, have become viable alternatives to legacy phone calls, at least for early adopters. Besides traditional voice services, Internet players offer ever richer services including presence, chat, video, etc. The risk for incumbent operators is that they might be sidelined into providing only emergency calls, or low-revenue back-up lines. Enterprises seem to be more sensitive to the potential issues (security, QoS, etc.) that Internet-based communications Figure 2: Services reachable via hybrid (2G-3G) & WiFi terminals present. They are interested in lowering the total costs of their communications, but have stringent requirements in order to eliminate any potential impact on their business. The opportunity for incumbents to address the new market competitors involves coupling new service creation with the comfort that only legacy assets can offer. The IMS architecture may enable them to offer security, Quality of Service (QoS) and integration with legacy networks/services in a way that is difcult for challengers to replicate. IMS services can for example, be extended to inter-work with non-IMS terminals or network services. Examples include deriving presence information from non-IMS terminals through legacy network elements (MSC, HLR/AAA); or new services that can be extended, such as instant messaging (IM) through SMS-IM inter-working. This is balanced by the requirement, as consumer research shows, that communication services remain comfortable and simple to use. A seamless experience is expected when moving from service to service and from access to access. The demand for diversity and excitement Headset RZ-37LZ55 NP-R530 2810S GC6420 Start PS-LX300H DVD-R150 M15 HD Navirad V1 DB238R Peugeot 607 HC600MLS Lexmark 3400 CMT-LX50WMR VGN-FZ31Z DCD-825 HDC-SD60 Road King AM-F70 Printer 720 Fatal1TY-AN8-SLI Suite 10 NF520-A2 TE Nuvi 785T DA3525 VGN-C190P LAV72730-WD Game Gear Nikon F80D Cabriolet D-NE900 WS500 QSN M405E RS20crsv5 RW-10D KDL-32S5550 YP-U4 Omnibook XE3 Link AL8 7 5 Control Hobbymatic 801 WJS 1272 50PG100R CU-NE9GKE PSR-195 FFT-76 AL1716 MY201X BAR988HG Review Sheet Makita 6413 Wide EYE Huskystar 215 Nokia DC-1 AVR-484 Chess MB6800 Astro Fifa 06 WS-32M206T SCX-4500W XAA QG3150 SHV 4300 DEH-P9800BT DW6614 XR-CA370X LE52A856s1M Odelia 753 CLP-610ND DFE-528TX 480DF 21FU1RK Caesar II AD1100W Hrp4950T DCR-TRV60E Power SD F2380MX CLT-2430 SGH-I450 Mouse Suburban 2003 Siemens CF75 SP6000K RS-70 10CHG Externe GR-AX230u-gr-ax230 DLE7177RM Euro-thermostat CP-X380W GH22NS30 Thinkpad X32 RT-32FZ11RX 19DX IV UA46C6200UR Lumi 246 HT-TX

gmane.linux.redhat.fedora.directory.user hourly 1 1901-01-01T00:00+00:00 Gmane Using Wildcard SSL Certificate <pre>Hello, I'm attempting to use a Wildcard SSL certificate for my domain with 389ds. The certificate and the CA (godaddy) intermediate cert import fine into both the admin server and the directory server, but attempts to use an LDAPS:// URI with ldapmodify result in this error: ldap_sasl_bind(SIMPLE): Can't contact LDAP server (-1) curl gets this: curl -vvv -3 * About to connect() to myserver.ldap.mydomain.com port 636 (#0) * Trying x.x.x.x... connected * Connected to myserver.ldap.mydomain.com (x.x.x.x) port 636 (#0) * Initializing NSS with certpath: sql:/etc/pki/nssdb * CAfile: /etc/pki/tls/certs/ca-bundle.crt CApath: none * SSL: certificate subject name '*.mydomain.com' does not match target host name 'myserver.ldap.mydomain.com' * NSS error -12276 * Closing connection #0 curl: (51) SSL: certificate subject name '*.mydomain.com' does not match target host name 'myserver.ldap.mydomain.com' Am I not able to use a wildcard SSL cert in this instance? If that is th</pre> Jeff Field 2012-05-26T04:41:43 About 389 cache and backend behavior <pre>Hi all, where can I find a brief description of the 389 communication between: - client - 389 cache - 389 backend - COS and VLV Is there a way to dwell into it without reading the code? Thx+ Peace, R. </pre> Roberto Polli 2012-05-24T15:49:44 Upgrade to fedora 16 with real CA fails <pre>Hello, I went through some of the docs/emails; however, it still seems like The NSS is not working correctly. On a separate, but related issue, it seems like you cannot use the GUI to generate a key with 2048 bits. To get a real CA, some vendors ask for this. - Thanks - Chris Chris Cawley System Administrator Washington Research Library Consortium 301-390-2049 cawley< at >wrlc.org -- 389 users mailing list 389-users< at >lists.fedoraproject.org</pre> Chris Cawley 2012-05-23T18:59:05 Disable unhashed#user#password altogether <pre>Is there a way to prevent the unhashed#user#password attribute from being stored or used at all? I don't need it to be replicated anywhere--I presume that the hashed password will be enough to authenticate users. Thanks, -Lucas -- 389 users mailing list 389-users< at >lists.fedoraproject.org</pre> Lucas Sweany 2012-05-22T21:32:14 subtree stacking/subtree virtual views <pre>Hello, I'm looking for some way how to "stack" LDAP sub-trees one on top of another. What I mean: Let's have two subtrees: dc=lower and dc=upper dc=lower contains objects: cn=obj1 cn=obj2,attr A = 2 cn=obj3 dc=upper contains objects: cn=obj2,attr A = 4 cn=obj4 Now I push dc=upper on top of dc=lower (let say it creates dc=stack) Queries with base dc=stack will return: cn=obj1 --> same object as in dc=lower cn=obj2 --> same object as in dc=upper, attr A = 2 cn=obj3 --> same object as in dc=lower cn=obj4 --> same object as in dc=upper I saw overlays "relay" and "rwm" in OpenLDAP. Is there any support in 389 for this use case? I need to override several records from "lower" subtree with object from "upper" subtree. Problem is, that subtree "lower" can contain 10 000 objects and I need to override only 5 of them. I'm searching for effective way how to accomplish this without copying whole subtree "lower" to "upper". Thanks for your time. Petr^2 Spacek -- 389 users mailing list 389-users< at >lists.f</pre> Petr Spacek 2012-05-22T17:18:53 compressed log files <pre>Hi, I figured I would ask the question here before proceeding with a RFE. I searched TRAC and couldn't locate any relevant tickets. I'd like to have 389 compress rotated log files to save significant amounts of disk space. Additionally, logconv.pl and other relevant tools would need to be modified to dynamically uncompress logfiles being processed (yes, I know I could gunzip -c and stuff like that but it would be easy to modify the tool to "do the right thing"). Is this a reasonable RFE or is it deemed "out of scope"? thanks /mrg -- 389 users mailing list 389-users< at >lists.fedoraproject.org</pre> Michael R. Gettes 2012-05-21T15:18:10 cannot build admin-console on Mandriva <pre>Hi all, this is my acquaintance with 389 directory server. I need to build admin console so I can connect to an installed server. I'm following instructions in Everything went fine up until "Building Directory Server Console (389-ds-console)". Then I launch ant in the 389-ds-console directory I get: Buildfile: build.xml prepare_build: import_console: [input] An imports file must be specified. Enter the imports file that you want to use: [imports] imports.FC3 [mkdir] Created dir: /usr/local/src/imports/console [get] Getting: [get] To: /usr/local/src/imports/console/console10.tar.gz [get] Error opening connection java.io.FileNotFoundException: [get] Error opening connection java.io.FileNotFoundException:</pre> Liutauras Adomaitis 2012-05-21T05:47:09 unhashed#user#password field <pre>I have a 389 DS server replication agreement whith an AD Server and when I change the password in the windows side it replicates into 389 but via 389 console I can see this field "unhashed#user#password" in clear text. How can I encrypt this field? Is it possible? I tried the following configuration: Source: dn: cn=unhashed#user#password,cn=encrypted attributes,cn=userRoot,cn=ldbm data base,cn=plugins,cn=config objectClass: top objectClass: nsAttributeEncryption cn: unhashed#user#password nsEncryptionAlgorithm: AES If I restart my server the field is gone. The fact is that I need to avoid my admin to see the user´s password. -- 389 users mailing list 389-users< at >lists.fedoraproject.org</pre> Alberto Viana 2012-05-18T18:13:37 Sync with active directory doubts <pre>Hello, I have 2 389 DS servers a 6 AD servers and i read this on red hat documetation about windows replication: "There can only be a single sync agreement between the Directory Server environment and the Active Directory environment. Multiple sync agreements to the same Active Directory domain can create entry conflicts." Now I´m trying the following scenario: server2 389(consumer) <- replication -> server1 389 <- replication -> Server1 AD Server2 AD Server3 AD So in my master 389 server (server1) I have 3 agreements with 3 different AD servers. It´s not clear if "Active Directory environment" means just one AD server. Just to make clear that the 6 AD servers are in the same Active Directory domain and all replicate information with each other. I have this number of AD servers because they are located in different places(physically). Can this scenario create entry conflitc? Am I suppose to sync with just one AD server? Thanks, Alberto Viana -- 389 users</pre> Alberto Viana 2012-05-17T21:26:04 Strange Disk IO issue <pre>I have recently upgraded our 389 servers from pretty old versions that were a mix and match of 389 release and CentOS released versions (all on centos 5) to the latest (on centos6) (specific RPMs listed below). I did this though a full ldif dump of the original server and imported into a freshly installed new master server. Then I setup the replication agreements with the 7 slave servers and everything was running fine. After about a week I starting having a problem with the hubs servers where all of them after (possibly exactly) 24 hours would start going crazy on the disk IO (95-100% according to sysstat) of that server making queries to ldap slow. The master server does not exhibit this problem, it will run completely fine. A simple restart of the dirsrv process corrects the issue and then it will run for another 24 hours before repeating the issue. The hardware running each node is somewhat different with varying disk speeds underlying, but all exhibit the same behavior. This happens the same on </pre> Brad Schuetz 2012-05-14T23:54:11 disabled user attribute <pre>I have an 389 DS server 1.2.10 and I disabled/inactivated a user just for test (via 389 console) but I could not find what attribute was modified with this change. I need to know how to identify a disabled/inactivated user. -- 389 users mailing list 389-users< at >lists.fedoraproject.org</pre> Alberto Viana 2012-05-11T14:51:21 Issue with schema replication <pre>Hi, I'm upgrading one 389DS machine from 1.2.5 to 1.2.10.7 and I have found a problem when replicate the schema from another 1.2.5 DS machine. I had created an attribute like this: attributeTypes: ( <OIDXXXXXXX> NAME 'xxxxx' DESC 'yyyyy' SYNTAX 1.3.6.1.4.1.1466.115.121.1.15{1024} SINGLE-VALUE ) and at replication time get this error: [10/May/2012:14:35:31 +0200] attr_syntax_create - Error: the EQUALITY matching rule [caseIgnoreIA5Match] is not compatible with the syntax [1.3.6.1.4.1.1466.115.121.1.15] for the attribute [xxxxx] Is there a default equality matching rule for this manual attributes??? Have I to modify the attribute with a equality matching rule for it in the original 1.2.5 DS to be able to replicate??? Is it a problem between versions??? If someone could help me i will appreciate it. Regards, Moses. -- 389 users mailing list 389-users< at >lists.fedoraproject.org</pre> Moisés Barba Pérez 2012-05-10T12:37:22 Cannot Initialize Hub <pre>Hi, I am having a problem with LDAP multi-master environment. I am trying to initialize a new hub (first one crashed so this is a new build with same hostname). When I exported the LDIF file from master and imported to hub there were no errors. I then created a replication agreement from master to hub. When I try to send updates, I get error on hub error log: csngen limit exceeded value 129888, limit 86400. Is there a way to reset the skew or "force" the replication? Paul M. Whitney paul.whitney< at >me.com -- 389 users mailing list 389-users< at >lists.fedoraproject.org</pre> Paul M. Whitney 2012-05-09T20:18:39 Disable Inactive Users After 90 days <pre>Hi I have a requirement to disable inactive users after 90 days. I did read but I am not sure whether this is a design proposal or the actual implementation. My DS version is : rpm -qa | grep 389 389-admin-console-1.1.8-1.el5 389-ds-base-1.2.9.9-1.el5 389-dsgw-1.1.7-2.el5 389-console-1.1.7-3.el5 389-adminutil-1.1.14-1.el5 389-admin-1.1.23-1.el5 389-admin-console-doc-1.1.8-1.el5 389-ds-1.2.1-1.el5 389-ds-base-libs-1.2.9.9-1.el5 389-ds-console-1.2.6-1.el5 389-ds-console-doc-1.2.6-1.el5 I got [root< at >386-100-16 dirsrv]# ldapsearch -x -D "cn=Directory manager" -w Password -b "cn=config" -s base lastLoginTime # extended LDIF # # LDAPv3 # base <cn=config> with scope baseObject # filter: (objectclass=*) # requesting: lastLoginTime # # config dn: cn=config # search result search: 2 result: 0 Success # numResponses: 2 # numEntries: 1 and [root< at >386-100-16 dirsrv]# grep -i lastlogintime /etc/dirsrv/slapd-386-100-16/schema/* /etc/dirsrv/slapd-386-100-</pre> Ali Jawad 2012-05-09T13:45:20 idle_timelimit 60 <pre>Hi I know this is not a strictly 389 DS related question. I did set idle_timelimit 60 in my /etc/ldap.conf client file but connections stay running and do not time out. Is there any setting I need to add on the server side ? My Full Ldap file at /etc/ldap.conf bind_policy soft URI ldap://xx.xx.xx.xx BASE dc=xxxxxxx,dc=local TLS_CACERTDIR /etc/openldap/cacerts pam_password clear pam_lookup_policy yes idle_timelimit 60 Regards -- 389 users mailing list 389-users< at >lists.fedoraproject.org</pre> Ali Jawad 2012-05-09T08:04:31 No password change forced at first logon <pre>Hi I did check the box that says User Must Change Password After Reset in Data under configuration I also did set the same policy for specific users. However, I am not being asked to change password on first logons through ssh or direct console on server, the same is true when I do change the password of a user "I guess this is what password reset means". I am not using Fine Grain Password settings. Any ideas ? Thanks -- 389 users mailing list 389-users< at >lists.fedoraproject.org</pre> Ali Jawad 2012-05-08T11:26:25 Issues with 389 <-> AD sync and user creation <pre>We're trying to modify our already heavily modified version of fdstools to add ntUser attributes to users. When we use it to create a new user (or add ntUser attributes to and existing user) we end up with two new users in AD and the cn: attribute of the user in 389 is modified to have CNF:<guid> added which indicates a conflict in the database. If we check the Enable NT User Attributes and create New NT Account in 389-console everything seems to work. We're not able to see what we're doing differently. Except that perhaps 389-console is setting ntUniqueId, but I didn't think it was supposed to do that, that the AD sync was supposed to handle it. In fdstools we're setting ntUserDomainId, ntUserCreateNewAccount, and ntUserDeleteAccount. Which seems to be all we need to do according to 389-ds-1.2.1-1.el5 389-ds-base-1.2.9.9-1.el5 Ideas? TIA, O</pre> Orion Poplawski 2012-05-07T23:33:29 How to change certificate options using 389-console ? <pre>I'm trying to add a new server, and will need to use SSL, of course. But all the instructions tell how to generate a self-signed CA, but we've got real signed certs on the other servers, and so I'm trying to generate a CSR for the new one. Generating one from the 389-console is only giving me a 1024-bit key, and 2048 is required. I see that running the cert request from the command line is not the preferred option, but how else can I change the parameters for the cert request? Thanks, Addison -- 389 users mailing list 389-users< at >lists.fedoraproject.org</pre> Addison Laurent 2012-05-07T18:12:38 Problems with nsaccountlock attribute <pre>Hi All, Our instance of 389 (version 1.2.8.1 running on Centos 5.7) has recently begun exhibiting problems with account locking. Locking (or inactivating if you prefer) an account, either by using the 389 console, or the ns-inactivate.pl script works initially and the user object displays the correct attributes... nsrole "cn=nsdisabledrole,dc=..." "cn=nsmanageddisabledrole,dc=..." nsroledn "cn=nsManagedDisabledRole,dc=..." nsaccountlock "true" and an ldapsearch confirms the existence of the nsaccountlock attribute. However, after some period of time has elapsed (haven't quite narrowed down exactly when it occurs) the nsaccountlock attribute is no longer present, meaning the account is no longer locked. About two weeks ago, I removed all entries from nsManagedDisabledRole and restarted dirsrv, then inactivated approximately 16 accounts. As of Thursday last week they were all still as expected with the nsaccountlock attribute present. As of this morning (Monday) none of the accounts have the n</pre> David Baird 2012-05-07T05:11:06 Master index (?!) feature request? <pre>I didn't know how to title this mail. I think this should be a feature request in Track when I want to discuss this here first. I have 389DS with 150 DBs with an structure similar to this: dc=company,dc=com ou=Headquarters,dc=company,dc=com ou=Branch1,dc=company,dc=com ou=Branch2,dc=company,dc=com . . . ou=Branch150,dc=company,dc=com Each one of this subtrees are in separate DBs because I have subtree replication between the 150 branches of the companies. 80% of the objects are in the ou=HeadQuarters. I've noticed that the performance is definetely better when I use base ou=Headquarters in my applications. I have indexes on each DB but I think that the problem is that 389DS doesn't have a master index or something to improve the searchs in scenarios like mine. May be the solution is to implemen another replication code that doesn't required separate DBs for subtree replication. Shall I file a ticket? Or there is a solution now? Regards, Diego </pre> Diego Woitasen 2012-05-04T12:47:18 Solaris client, behavior differences? <pre>Hi, My colleague and I are working on migrating from Sun One Directory Server to 389 Directory Server. We have successfully configured 389 Directory Server on Centos 5.7. We've been able to successfully setup Multi-Master Replication and have joined (or at least it appears to) a Solaris 10 Client. Here is a quick breakdown of what we're observing... Solaris 10 host, as a 389 Client... ... can perform ldapsearch (using both directory manager & proxyagent bindDNs). It will return all entries (when using directory manager as the bindDN) or a limited amount (2000, when search using proxyagent bindDN), as specified by the configuration. ... using ldaplist requires an escaped wild card to list most of the DB, again I'm assuming it is inheriting the proxyagent limits. ... executing "getent passwd" or "getent group" returns ONLY the local users & groups. Solaris 10 host, as a Sun One Client... ... using ldapsearch exhibits the same behavior. ... using ldaplist requires no wild card, we can simply execute </pre> Rafael Hinojosa 2012-05-03T19:06:29 Search Engine Search the mailing list at Gmane query

Return to Transcripts main page CNN NEWSROOM Jury Deliberates in Michael Jackson Death Trial; Occupy Protests Continue; Justin Bieber Denies he's a Father; Anonymous Lifts Threat to Mexican Drug Cartel; Financial Planners Give Advice; Herman Cain Sexual Harassment Scandal Continues to Unfold Aired November 4, 2011 - 15:00 ET THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED. BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Now this. Welcome back. Hour two. Let's begin "Reporter Roulette." The jury three-and-a-half-hours into deliberating the case against Michael Jackson's doctor. Also there is a new jobs report out there. And If Greece worries you, wait until you hear about Italy. All of that, plus a civil rights legend has advice for the Occupy Wall Street movement. Let's play "Reporter Roulette" on this Friday. I want to begin with Ted Rowlands in Los Angeles outside that courtroom. Quite a little bit of a scene I guess behind you there, Ted. Any news? Any other news from the jury room? TED ROWLANDS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, the big breaking news, Brooke, they have taken their lunch break. The jurors, they have deliberated now, as you mentioned, about three- and-a-half-hours and during the deliberations, they did ask for some evidence, so, a big box of evidence was brought back to the jury room, so they are obviously doing something back there. They are going over the case, but that's all we have to report right now. Outside the courthouse, tons of media from around the world here, highly anticipating this verdict, and then of course, the Jackson followers and the Murray supporters out here as well. BALDWIN: If they don't reach this verdict by the end of the day today, Ted, could they continue to deliberate after hours or even through the weekend? ROWLANDS: No, they can't. The judge is limiting their deliberations. They can make their own schedule within the window of the court hours, he's outlawing them from going long or from working the weekends and the reason is the California budget. They would have to staff the courthouse with security, et cetera. He's limiting them to the court hours of 8:15 to 4:15. BALDWIN: OK. Ted Rowlands in L.A., Ted, many thanks. (STOCK MARKET UPDATE) BALDWIN: OK. Next. "Reporter Roulette," let's go to Ali Velshi, who is in Southern France, sit of, as you know, G20 summit. G20 leaders, Ali, devoted a lot of time to Greece, a country still facing potential default. Point-blank, my friend, do we need to keep an eye on Italy because we have seen unrest there related to all of this debt stuff as well? ALI VELSHI, CNN CHIEF BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely. Absolutely we do. Italy -- Greece is the 32nd largest economy in the world. It is a blip on the radar and it has caused -- it's nearly caused the unraveling of the European Union. Italy is a significant economy, it's a very big economy, it's got a lot of debt. The prime minister there facing a no-confidence vote last week. Berlusconi, by the way, has survived these many, many times before. I think he has survived 50 of them in the past , so it is not as fragile a political situation, but economically, it is absolutely a serious situation. And, by the way, we are not out of the woods on Greece yet. There is a speech in Parliament happening right now and then there will be the no-confidence vote. So the ruling party, Prime Minister George Papandreou may not survive the night as the prime minister. Looks like he might but we're still watching that very closely. Europe is not out of the woods, Brooke. BALDWIN: Then you have the president going through the whole litany again today, tsunami in Japan, Arab spring, troubles in Europe, all the factors clearly weighing down our own economic recovery. Is there any way out of the syndrome where another country sneezes and we get sick? VELSHI: No. Like I said, look at Greece. It is just not a big country hospital. Would have thought -- for the last 2,000 years, Greece has not been a significant player on the international front, and all of a sudden it is the most important country in the world today. I think we need to look at this and it's something to consider, especially during campaign season, where everybody is pointing fingers at Washington and this side of the aisle and that side of the aisle. What Washington does has some impact on our economy, but right now, we are connected to the entire world, and the biggest trading partner for the United States is Europe and if Europe were to falter it will cost jobs in America, it will cost you in your 401(k) and it's going to cost you the ability to get loans and mortgages. It is very serious and we need to keep an eye on what is going on in Greece and anywhere else that starts to falters these days, Brooke. BALDWIN: Ali Velshi in France -- Ali, thanks. Finally, a confrontation could be brewing just a couple blocks from where I'm sitting. Occupy Atlanta plans to retake that downtown park they were kicked out of just last week and a veteran of the civil rights movement, Reverend Lowery, has some advice with these folks. Here, George Howell with me in Atlanta. You talked to him. What did the reverend say? GEORGE HOWELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Brooke, this is a big deal. We're talking about the dean of the civil rights movement. This is the man who walked alongside Dr. Martin Luther King in the '60s. When he talks a lot of people listen. Dr. Lowery says that he supports the Occupy movement. That is a big deal. But he says also that the protesters may be fighting the wrong fight. He also has some advice for Atlanta's mayor. I just got an interview with him a minute ago. Let's listen to this sound bite and we can talk about it here on the other side. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) REV. JOSEPH LOWERY, CIVIL RIGHTS LEADER: I recognize the mayor's concern. He has got to do his job. He has to enforce the law. But he has got find a way to meet these protesters halfway. I think his sympathies are with them, but he feels obligated to enforce the law. And I understand that. I also have said to the Occupy people that don't make the mayor your main target. Let's look at these banks, look at these politicians. Let's find a way to go to their offices. (END VIDEO CLIP) HOWELL: Always an honor to talk to Dr. Lowery, just turned 90 last month. BALDWIN: Ninety, 90. HOWELL: But says that the focus needs to be on business leaders, needs to be on politicians and partisan politics that he says create a stalemate in Washington. BALDWIN: Might he show up at Woodruff Park on Saturday? Is he thinking about it? HOWELL: That would be a big endorsement for Occupy Atlanta. He says he may. It depends. He may. He says if the movement becomes violent in any way, he said -- quote -- "I will wash my hands of it entirely." BALDWIN: George Howell, thank you. And that is your "Reporter Roulette" for this Friday. Many of you have expressed your outrage over this next story. We showed you just snippets of this disturbing video, the whole thing some seven minutes, this Texas family court judge whipping his daughter with this leather belt. Now we are learning this father, the judge will not be facing charges. The district attorney in Texas says the time stamp on the beating shown in the video too old. You see it, 2004, seven years ago. Statute of limitations has run out. So they cannot prosecute Judge William Adams, but Adams faces an investigation into his judicial conduct. His daughter, Hillary Adams, search is the one who uploaded the video as a way she says to reconcile with her father. She talked about that just last night with Anderson Cooper. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: So you actually -- the night that happened, you actually set up the camera in advance because you could sense things were escalating? HILLARY ADAMS, VIDEOTAPED BEATING BY HER FATHER:. (END VIDEO CLIP) BALDWIN: So what is her father saying now? Judge Adams is calling into question his daughter's motives for releasing the video. He suggests that she is retaliating against had him for an argument they had recently about money. A statement released by his attorney says -- quote -- "Hillary warned her father that if he reduced her financial support and took away her Mercedes automobile, which her father provided, he would live to regret it. The post was then uploaded." Four coal miners are dead, more than 50 trapped after this explosion in China. Plus, the mummified remains of dozens of women found in this teeny- tiny apartment of this man in Russia. He apparently dressed them up as -- one as a doll, one as a teddy bear in costumes, these bodies. Also, six people locked in isolation for 520 days, all in the name of science. We are going to tell you why coming up this hour. And a poster in a barbecue restaurant that reads cowboys and Iranians, those words, this picture kicking up quite a stir in Texas -- that story and much more coming up. Stay right here. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) (NEWS BREAK) BALDWIN: Hey, if you saw this poster, this poster right here, would you be disturbed? The poster is hanging in a Texas barbecue joint. Check out what the owner of the restaurant has to say about it. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) JOHN NONMACHER, RESTAURANT OWNER: It is my choice to have it up. It is your choice to go where you want to go, but I'm not going to take it down. (END VIDEO CLIP) BALDWIN: Hmm. More on that story in two minutes. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) BALDWIN: We don't mark a lot of anniversaries on this show, but once every while, an anniversary comes along that reminds you of just how time flies, like this one -- 32 years ago today, Iranian students and militants took over the U.S. Embassy in Tehran. They held 52 Americans hostage for a total of 444 days. Images just like this one outraged and enraged people across the United States. Today, in a scene reminiscent of that chapter of the Iranian Revolution, thousands of students gathered outside what used to be the U.S. Embassy in Tehran. They shouted down with USA and carried signs reading down with capitalism and Wall Street equals war street. But back here at home, in the U.S., there is a stark reminder that while times fly, times change. I want to show you a relic from the Iranian hostage crisis that still hangs in a Texas barbecue joint. Watch this report. This is by Demond Fernandez from our Houston affiliate KTRK. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) DEMOND FERNANDEZ, KTRK REPORTER (voice-over): On a photo wall tucked under some old caps at Nonmacher's Bar-B-Q in Katy sits the poster that is causing quite a stir. AYMAN WAFAI, CUSTOMER: It's 2011. Looking at it now, I see really nothing more than a display of racism and bigotry. FERNANDEZ: Ayman Wafai says he came to eat at the Mason Road restaurant this week. He says he was disturbed by the lynching scene in the poster. It shows two dozen men toting weapons, posing under a man tied with a noose and its caption reads, let's play cowboys and Iranians. WAFAI: I don't think something like this should really be accepted by any community. FERNANDEZ: Now some are calling the poster offensive, but the barbecue shop's owner, John Nonmacher, told me it has been on the wall here for 30 years. NONMACHER: Nobody has ever found it offensive before. FERNANDEZ: is surprised by the public fuss over it now. NONMACHER: I laugh. And I'm still laughing. I mean, they don't understand what it is. They don't care to understand. It somebody that has taken it upon themselves to campaign and crusade. FERNANDEZ: Customers like Wafai, who describe himself as Middle Eastern, says the problem is times have changed. WAFAI: If this was any other race, if we were looking at a picture of an African-American or an Asian-American or Native American even, this would be a very, very huge deal. FERNANDEZ: Right now, many people are asking Nonmacher to remove the poster and his message to those folks: NONMACHER: It is my choice to have it up. It is your choice to go where you want to go, but I'm not going to take it down. (END VIDEOTAPE) BALDWIN: I just tweeted about this. Do me a favor, think about this story. I have a feeling this is one of those you might be talking about tonight over dinner or over the weekend. What do you think about that? Should it be taken down? Would you be offended. Send me a tweet @BrookeBCNN. A space mission to Mars, or is it? Look at these men locked away from the world for a year-and-a-half, donning -- well, not there -- there -- space suits, walking across sandy yards, landing on Mars, but they never left our planet. Hmm. We will tell you why next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) BALDWIN: Imagine 520 days locked away with five other people, packed into a space about the width of a bus, eating food from jars and cans, waiting long periods to hear from friends, living with little in the way of luxuries, except for, I don't know, a couple of small holiday parties. That is exactly what the crew of the Mars500 experiment just went through in the simulation of the first human mission to Mars. Tariq Malik is managing editor of Space.com. He has been on before. Tariq, we wanted to bring you back because you have these six volunteers. Essentially, they slammed the hatch closed 17 months ago. How do you make a facility in Moscow look like Mars? TARIQ MALIK, SPACE.COM: Well, what they have done is they made a very high-fidelity kind of model of what a spaceship would be like. It is complete. It has bedrooms for these astronauts. It has an entertainment area, exercise room. They even built a fake Mars surface, a big red walk area where these guys would walk around in their space suits, basically everything they would need for a Mars mission, but right here on Earth. And these guys sat there for 500 days and now they have just come out today. BALDWIN: Whew, 500 days, goodness. I guess they are all very, very good friends by now. What did they do? What exactly did they do in those 17 months? MALIK: Well, fighting boredom obviously probably high on their list. But they actually went into this with a lot of goals in mind. They had daily schedules which included exercise, you know, the things that you and I would need, eating, sleeping, but also a lot of scientific experiments. Many of them kept journals or other types of records for psychological evaluation. That's the big draw of this test is that the scientists want to know what the psychological effects of being stuck in a tin can with only a few companions around is going to be like on a long trip to Mars. BALDWIN: Right. What exactly does that do to you physically and psychologically, as you mentioned? I know we have been reading a lot of tweets from Diego Urbina. And I want to just pull up this tweet, guys, if we have it. He tweeted: "The passive treadmill never fails to make you sweat liters. Wang knows it." And here is a guy on a treadmill, presumably part of one of these experiments. Who exactly are these six guys, by the way, Tariq? MALIK: Well, these are volunteers for the project. None of them are professional astronauts, if you will. The Chinese volunteer is an astronaut trainer. The two Europeans were selected from a wide range of volunteers out in Europe. They represent the European Space Agency. And then there are Russians as well from either -- representatives of Russia's flight team or medical personnel, to really kind of give a wide range of what an international trip to Mars would look like. BALDWIN: Yes, I was just talking to the ISS commander up in space a couple days ago and he was reminding me that it takes six months just to get to Mars. So I guess you got to practice -- 520 days is quite a chunk of time, I suppose. Tariq Malik, Space.com, Tariq, thank you very much. And it is time for America's Choice 2012 politics update. Let's go to Jim Acosta, joining us live from the fifth annual Defending the American Dream Summit in Washington. Jim, good to see you. JIM ACOSTA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Brooke, good to see you. Yes. Well, Herman Cain has had a week of sexual harassment allegations hanging over his head but you would not know it judging by the response that he got inside this conference room behind me just about an hour ago. The conservative businessman got up and gave a fiery speech to a room packed full of conservatives. They gave him a standing ovation. There were some Tea Party activists who were dancing in the aisles during the speech. And what was really notable about the speech, Brooke, it's probably the one-liner of the day, if you will. This summit was put on by Americans For Prosperity, which is a big Tea Party organizer, and it is also a group that was founded by the Koch brothers. Those are the billionaire brothers who bankroll a big portion of the Tea Party movement, helping to pay for events all over the country that support Tea Party causes. And Herman Cain got up and all but blew a kiss to the Koch brothers. Take a listen. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) HERMAN CAIN (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I'm proud to know the Koch brothers. I'm very proud to know the Koch brothers. (APPLAUSE) CAIN: They make it sound like that we have had time to go fishing together, hunting together, skiing together, golfing together. (LAUGHTER) CAIN: But just so I can clarify this for the media -- this may be a breaking news announcement for the media. I am the Koch brothers' brother from another mother. (LAUGHTER) (END VIDEO CLIP) (LAUGHTER) ACOSTA: So, yes. So, Brooke, if, earlier this week, that image of Herman Cain snapping at reporters was perhaps an image midweek of this crisis for the Cain campaign, I think this was a new image that the Cain campaign was putting out, a much more forceful, much more aggressive, much more confident Herman Cain than we have seen in the last 48 hours. This was not a Herman Cain shrinking from the limelight. He was definitely out in front, soaking in up big time. BALDWIN: Cracking jokes as well. I know, as you know it is not only Cain there it is Mitt Romney. We've seen the ABC/"Washington Post" poll, they're the top two frontrunners, Romney and then Cain. What is the word from the Romney camp today? ACOSTA: Well, you know, if Cain's speech was sort of in your face in style, Romney's was in substance. He outlined what was a pretty radical reshaping of the federal government today. This was a plan that he says will cut $500 billion in government spending per year in a Romney administration up until the year 2016. He is talking about partially privatizing Medicare, sending Medicaid back to the states, cutting funding for programs like Amtrak, Planned Parenthood, PBS, foreign aid, and the list goes on and on. And it was also notable that Romney did not even make mention at all, anything do what so ever with the Cain matter that has been unfolding this week. He stayed completely clear of it. And I have to say, there was a huge contrast in the response to both of these speeches. They were almost standing on top of their chairs for Herman Cain, and it was really polite applause for Mitt Romney, a big contrast there, Brooke. BALDWIN: Sounds like it, sounds like two different speeches, two different responses. Jim Acosta in Washington. Thank you, Jim. And the fate of Michael Jackson's doctor now sitting in the hands of the jury. Sunny Hostin is "On the Case" with that. Plus, this -- (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) (SINGING) (END VIDEO CLIP) BALDWIN: Well, Justin Bieber says he is not a daddy, but a woman three years his senior says, oh, yes he is. We will tell you about the legal Pandora's Box she just opened with this one. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) BALDWIN: In this week's "Human Factor," CNN's chief medical correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta introduces us to a young woman with paranoid schizophrenia who has achieved remarkable things in the face of major challenges, and she is determined not to let mental illness stop her from reaching her goals. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) ASHLEY SMITH, HAS PARANOID SCHIZOPHRENIA: I heard voices. I saw images of people following me that scared me. DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Ashley Smith knows what it's like to nearly lose it all. SMITH: I felt continue to cope with it the best way I knew house, I would get through it. GUPTA: But she didn't. Ashley stole a military truck and led police on a high-speed chase. She ended up in jail. Two months went by before Ashley received a diagnosis of paranoid schizophrenia along with treatment. The National Alliance of Mental Illness says more than 2 million Americans have schizophrenia, but in the African-American community, mental illness is on the misunderstood and is not often discussed. But Ashley did something remarkable. She decided to be open about her diagnosis with the goal of helping others. SMITH: Do I look like a person with schizophrenia? There is no face to my illness. GUPTA: Today, she helps train law enforcement officers. They learn to recognize signs and symptoms of people with mental illness to help the officers intervene in a crisis. Ashley has also started her own nonprofit organization, "Embracing my Mind," which helps low-income and homeless people with mental illness get help. She is studying to be a therapist. SMITH: It is a life-long process to overcome schizophrenia. I do it through my medication, my support network, which is my treatment team, and my peers and family. GUPTA: Ashley hopes sharing her story will reduce stigma surrounding metal health. SMITH: Those people who are newly diagnosed or who are still suffering or struggling with this illness, there are going to be ups and downs, but it is very manageable and that you can succeed. GUPTA: Dr. Sanjay Gupta, CNN, reporting. (END VIDEOTAPE) (COMMERCIAL BREAK) BALDWIN: So, the jury now has been deliberating more than four hours in the trial of Michael Jackson's doctor, Conrad Murray. Sunny Hostin is "On the Case." Sunny, we heard from Ted Rowland outside the courthouse. The jury has come back, I guess, asking for some evidence. Given than, what does your gut tell you? Will we have a verdict today? SUNNY HOSTIN, CNN LEGAL CONTRIBUTOR: We may not. I will tell you this had is a one-count case. I thought perhaps when they went into the jury room and took their initial vote after electing a foreperson that we could come back a quick verdict. That usually inures to the benefit of the prosecution. But as things drag on, that usually swings toward the defense. So the fact they are now asking for pieces of evidence, asked for a break, taken a lunch break, that means this is a jury going over the evidence, Brooke, they are discussion things, the defense here to rained prosecution theory, which we know works so, so different, quite possible we don't get a verdict back today. BALDWIN: Was it a mistake, Sunny, not to sequester the jury? Can these jurors really resist reading, watching the news about the case? HOSTIN: Maybe I'm just not a trusting person, Brooke, but they have been admonished not to do that, not to look at the Internet, not to watch any television coverage of this case. But it's everywhere, right? So I think the judge, who by the way, has been superb in this case, made a mistake by not sequestering the jury, especially during jury deliberation. I think it is a mistake, because if it goes into the weekend, they are not going to deliberate over the weekend, they are going to go home. How do they stay away from the facts of this case? BALDWIN: We know they can't deliberate late tonight or over the weekend because of California budget issues, so exactly. I do want to play a little something from the defense attorney, Ed Chernoff, part of the closing argument. Let's watch this. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) ED CHERNOFF, DEFENSE ATTORNEY FOR CONRAD MURRAY: This is not a reality show. It's reality. And the decisions you make isn't making good TV. It is how it affects real human beings and people that love them. (END VIDEO CLIP) BALDWIN: So Chernoff was lecturing the jury on rate TV versus reality. Could talking to juries in that manner, I don't know, alienate some of them perhaps? HOSTIN: You know, it's possible. I like Ed Chernoff. I thought he did a wonderful job considering the evidence, overwhelming evidence I considered against Conrad Murray. This pushed it a bit far. He's dramatic storyteller, and there is that celebrity piece of this case. I don't know that the reality television analyst worked well, but there were other analogies that he used during his closing arguments that I think were quite effective. And clearly this jury is considering the evidence in this case, including the defense theory. So job well done for him. That little piece, a little too far. BALDWIN: You said you thought Chernoff did a pretty good job. You watched both closing arguments. Who had a stronger case? HOSTIN: Maybe it is the former prosecutor in me, Brooke, but I think the first-degree this case is very overwhelming. This was methodical process, a lot of evidence, a very leanly tried case. It wasn't overcharged. At the end of the day, maybe there will be a jury nullification, maybe there will be a hung jury, but the prosecution in my view proved the case beyond a reasonable doubt. BALDWIN: OK, as we wait for a verdict, let's move on. Case two, the paternity suit here against teen heartthrob Justin Bieber. So this young woman has come forth. She claims she had sex with the Biebs after a concert backstage last year. He was asked about this. He was "The Today Show" this morning performing. He was asked about this. Let's hear what he said. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) JUSTIN BIEBER, SINGER: Every night after the show I go right from the stage right to my car. So it's crazy that some people want to make up false allegations. But to set the record straight, none of it is true. (END VIDEO CLIP) BALDWIN: It is not true. It is crazy, says Justin Bbieber. Could the lawsuit come back and haunt the accuser, Sunny? HOSTIN: Well, it certainly could, because you can't defame people, you can't file frivolous lawsuits. It certainly could come back to bite her. I'm glad that he came out publicly and denied these allegations, because I think that between first came out, he sort of tweeted this odd tweet, not necessarily coming out against the allegations. So I'm glad he has set the record straight and we will see what happens. BALDWIN: Here is the issue though, you do the math. Angie, correct me on the ages, but she would have been then 19, he would have been 16. So what penalty could she possibly face for statutory rape charge? HOSTIN: Well, you know, typically, prosecutors don't charge statutory rapes when you have two teens, because she was 16, he was 19, only a three-year difference. Most people charge when you have a larger difference and not between teens. But because of a case like this, she does subject herself to statutory rape charges if this were true. It would be a misdemeanor though because of the difference in age, only three years. That's still six months in prison, $5,000 penalty, a real big deal if he, indeed, is the father of her child. BALDWIN: If. Sunny Hostin -- HOSTIN: And the other thing is -- BALDWIN: Yes, go. HOSTIN: The other thing is very quickly is that usually they have to sign up as a sex offender on the registry forever. So a pretty big deal. BALDWIN: She would have to do that if she is found guilty? HOSTIN: That's right, if convicted of a misdemeanor. That's right. BALDWIN: Sunny Hostin, thank you very much. And we talked about this yesterday, we told you about the international hacker group, Anonymous, went toe-to-toe with a very violent drug cartel in Mexico. Well, the news today, someone blinked. Find out what happened, next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) BALDWIN: I want to talk about these live pictures. These are live pictures outside of an attorney's office in Washington, D.C. The attorney is Joel Bennett, you know the name, we have been talking about Joel Bennett because he represents one of these clients, one of these women who is involved in this sexual harassment story that we have been covering this last week with regard to Herman Cain. They worked together at the National Restaurant Association some years ago. She accused him of sexual harassment. The story's come to light. We have now learned that both the National Restaurant Association and this client vis-a-vis her attorney are amicably discussing her releasing a statement. They have to work with the association because there was this confidentiality agreement back in 1999. So point being, we are watching to see if and when he comes out of his office, and when he does I know Brian Todd, who was there, he's be all over it for "THE SITUATION ROOM" in a matter of minutes. So say tuned for that. BALDWIN: Meantime, the brewing cyber-battle between the hacker group Anonymous and a Mexican drug cartel may now be at a draw. Anonymous says a kidnapped member of their group has been freed. Anonymous had had threatened to release names, personal information about people linked to the Los Zetas cartel if the person wasn't released. But the cartel sent a message all of their own, promising death to Anonymous members and their families if any names were released. Our national desk editor Nick Valencia working his contacts in Mexico, digging on the story for us. Obviously both sides have been threatening one another. Do we know for a fact that one side blinked? NICK VALENCIA, CNN NATIONAL DESK EDITOR: This is a thing, Brooke. It's a very nuanced story and we have to be completely transparent about it. We do not know that validity of these threats, if the Anonymous group as a whole is backing this alleged threat that's supposed to happen tomorrow. As you know and as you've spoken, we had Fred Burton on here a couple days ago, and he brought a great point out, this is a decentralized leadership that Anonymous has. The curious thing about this all is there is no official record of this kidnapping, this alleged kidnapping that the group is claim. BALDWIN: That's what the group says, but CNN hasn't been able to confirm that, correct? VALENCIA: CNN cannot confirm that anyone has been kidnapped. CNN cannot confirm either that anyone has been released. This is all according to this anonymous cartel blog. Today they released a message saying their member had been released and they were backing off the threat. I because we have this full-screen graphic with the statement. They said, "Today our Anonymous colleague retained by the Zetas cartel has been freed. A message has been sent to us that if anonymous reveals a name related with the cartel, the family of the kidnapped anonymous member will suffer consequences. For every cartel name is revealed, 10 people will be put to death. The collective Anonymous has decided by consensus that the information that we have available will not be revealed for the time being." So from that statement it seems of though they are back off. An interesting caveat, though, this 30-year-old man, Baird Brown in Dallas, 30 years old yesterday released a message. BALDWIN: Unmasked. VALENCIA: Unmakes. It is very different from the sort of status quo that Anonymous has of wearing these Guy Fawkes masks, which coincidentally November 5, tomorrow, when this alleged release of these names is happening, is Guy Fawkes day. So he got in front of the TV or his YouTube camera and says he is joining this fight for Anonymous and he is going to release names on Saturday, that he is expecting to get thousands of emails from different anonymous member, and he has no problem releasing the names and going after the Los Zetas, which, as you know, is the most ruthless cartel in Mexico. BALDWIN: Very different from being thrown in jail. When you're dealing with the Zetas, you're dealing with entirely different ramifications. Nick Valencia, stay on it. Let's get an update Monday. Thanks very much. Now this. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I've never paddled out this far before. (END VIDEO CLIP) BALDWIN: And I bet she won't paddle out that far again. Have you seen this -- pleasant day for kayakers until these massive whales come out lunging out of the water. More on that incredible video next. . Thanks for being here, guys. We appreciate it. Lynnette, your question comes from Kathy in Missouri. Kathy writes she wants to find an honest and reliable credit repair agency. Where can she find that? LYNNETTE KHALFANI-COX, ASKTHEMONEYCOACH.COM: Is there such a thing? No, see here's the problem. A lot of these credit repair agencies tout benefits and make promises they can't keep or promise you things consumers can do for him or herself. The idea here is heck out a company's Better Business Bureau, also maybe look at the credit counseling industry because the federal government does in fact certify HUD certified credit counseling agencies -- HARLOW: For free? KHALFANI-COX: Free of charge they can help with your credit issues. You might not get credit repair, in that sense, but you can get some credit education to improve your credit score. HARLOW: Bottom line, if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is. KHALFANI-COX: It probably is. HARLOW: David, your question comes from Ming in New York. Ming writes that his son started college this year, they paid over $10,000 in tuition. What kind of tax benefits can they expect? DAVID NOVICK, FINANCIAL PLANNER: Depending on their income, there may be a couple of options available. Most important one would be the American opportunity tax credit, which could give them up to $2,500 of tax credit for the $10,000 of tuition. The lifetime learning credit may available, too, a $2,000 tax credit. There's a tuition tax deduction. That could be $4,000. The key is you can't use them together and if they've used anything such as a 529 plan or a Coverdale account to pay for college, you wouldn't be able to use those credits for the same expense. HARLOW: If this, then not this. NOVICK: Exactly. HARLOW: You got to look at the fine print. Thank you, guys. And folks, if you have a question you want answered, send us a question anytime to [email protected]. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) BALDWIN: And once again -- it's black now. Of course it goes black when we want to talk about it. The bottom line, we are watching and waiting. I know Brian Todd is standing there outside this attorney's office in Washington D.C. to see if Joel Bennett, the attorney for one of the accusers in this alleged Herman Cain sex harassment story, if he comes forth and reads this statement on behalf of his client. Certainly Wolf will have it for you or we will depending on when he does that here on CNN. Now to some pretty incredible video. A surfer and pair of kayakers hanging out in Santa Cruz, take a good long look at the water, some happy seagulls as. Then as you keep why are eyes trained on the water, not just one but two humpback whale, here they go, pop right out of the water, a tad too close for my taste if I were sitting there shooting this thing, feeding on anchovies and fish, barely missing the woman and kayakers there. The whales are feeding so close to the shore because their food is there now. And the Coast Guard is now warning people to stay at least 100 yards away from the whales or face hefty fines. Coming up in a couple of minutes, Wolf Blitzer in "THE SITUATION ROOM." Wolf, I know you guys are all over, Brian Todd outside Joel Bennett's office there watching and waiting to see if he will read that statement. WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST, "THE SITUATION ROOM": Yes. We've been waiting to see if they worked out an arrangement between Joel Bennett, the attorney representing this woman who is making these accusations against Herman Cain. She actually made the sexual harassment allegations more than a decade ago when he was the head of the National Restaurant Association. We'll see if they worked out an agreement that will allow her to break the confidentiality agreement that she worked out with the National Restaurant Association and allow her to make a statement responding to what Herman Cain, the Republican presidential front-runner, has been saying. So Brian is over there. We probably will hear from Joel Bennett. A lot more news is coming up. We have some major developments on a whole bunch of other fronts as well. So we'll have all the important news of the day. BALDWIN: Wolf, thank you. We'll see new a couple minutes. A weight loss success story, something you don't mess with unless of course there's a case of state or national pride on the line. We're going to explain this tempting taste in today's "Political Pop." (COMMERCIAL BREAK) BALDWIN: Here's your "Political Pop." A senator win as bet, gets ice cream. But is it winning when you have a very public weight loss story? Senator Claire McCaskill of Missouri, a fan of the St. Louis Cardinals who played the Texas Rangers in the series. So she bet Texas senators her team would win, and they did. Thus her tweet, "Facing sweet dilemmas, Texas senator paying off World Series bet with ice cream." Then she tweeted "I meant splurge. And yes, I did. Chocolate -- yum." But this is even though McCasskill has been trying to lose a bunch of weight. Take a look at her before and after. Looking very good, Ms. McCaskill. And that is it for me. Have a wonderful weekend, please. I'm Brooke Baldwin. Let's send it off to Washington and Wolf Blitzer. "THE SITUATION ROOM" starts now. Weather forecast

Return to Transcripts main page ISSUES WITH JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL Jury Deliberates Fate of Conrad Murray Aired November 4, 2011 - 19:00 ET THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST (voice-over): Next, we watch the drama inside and outside of court in the Michael Jackson death trial. Shocking details about the King of Pop`s personal life. Fans screaming for justice. Disturbing audio of a drugged Michael Jackson slurring his words. Dr. Murray`s play-by-play of the moment Jackson died. But it all comes down to one question: was Dr. Murray responsible for the death of Michael Jackson? ED CHERNOFF, ATTORNEY FOR CONRAD MURRAY: Dr. Murray did not kill Michael Jackson. DAVID WALGREN, PROSECUTOR: It is gross negligence, and it`s a direct cause of Michael Jackson`s death. VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`ll talk to a team of experts, and we`ll take your calls. ISSUES starts now. (END VIDEOTAPE) (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On verdict watch at HLN. The jury has the case in the death of the King of Pop. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Dr. Murray! Dr. Murray! Dr. Murray! WALGREN: What Conrad Murray was doing was a pharmaceutical experiment on Michael Jackson. CHERNOFF: They want you to convict Dr. Murray for the actions of Michael Jackson. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`ve come to give Dr. Murray support. He saved my life. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m here for justice, not only for Michael Jackson; for the last person that has to go through the same thing and the family has to suffer. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We`re here for Michael. And that (UNINTELLIGIBLE) down there, you know, for Conrad Murray, and it`s wrong. The man murdered Michael, straight up. He murdered him, and we are here to see justice served. (CHANTING) (END VIDEO CLIP) VELEZ-MITCHELL: Will there be justice for Michael Jackson? It`s all in the hands of the jury right now. We are in verdict watch as we speak. Good evening, everyone. Jane Velez-Mitchell coming to you live from Los Angeles, right next to the L.A. Superior Court building, where you can cut the tension with a knife. I`ve been out there all day. Now, look at the jury clock. OK? It`s going to come up in a second. It`s there, OK? They`ve been deliberating for more than seven hours. OK, 7 1/2 hours, approximately. And they`re studying testimony that has been going on for six weeks. That`s nothing compared to the white-hot battles happening right outside court. I was right in the thick of it and, wow, has it gotten heated out there. Watch this. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: he murdered him. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They said he murdered him. He did not murder him. Somebody else did. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The charges are manslaughter, and he should get more than four years. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This young lady called me the "B" word. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He didn`t kill him. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was negligent. He was negligent. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He didn`t murder him, though. He didn`t murder him. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A doctor is supposed to help, not kill. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Stop all of this "B" word, "M.F.," calling people this. This is not what -- this is not the place for this. (END VIDEO CLIP) VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, and I agree with that, lady. We got to know each other today, and I agree. Things have to stay civil. Back inside the deliberation room, the jury is nearly done for the weekend. But so far, they have not reached a verdict. They are still talking, last we heard. If they don`t announce one soon, guess what? We`re back here on Monday continuing with the deliberations. Now that`s why tensions, I think, are heated. They`re really hitting a fever pitch out there. Even the Jackson family is on pins and needles. On Twitter, La Toya wrote, just a little while ago, "I`m so shaky right now waiting for a verdict. Every little noise has me jumping out of my skin." She said it well. Late this afternoon, Michael`s parents, Katherine and Joe Jackson, checked into a hotel right near the courthouse so they can be close whenever a verdict comes in. We are all at the edge of our seats. When do you think we`re going to get a verdict? And what do you think that verdict will be? Give me a call: 1-877-JVM-SAYS, 1-877-586-7297. I want to hear from you. First, straight out to Michael Christian, "In Session" reporter, producer, right at court. He is like -- almost got his ear on the -- on the wall of the courtroom. What is going on, Michael, right this second? MICHAEL CHRISTIAN, REPORTER, TRUTV`S "IN SESSION" (via phone): You know, Jane, obviously the day is winding down. Spectators here in the hallway on the ninth floor ([h) seem resigned to the fact that there`s not going to be a verdict today, and yet, the jurors are still deliberating. They basically can set their own hours for coming in in the morning, but really there`s no way they`re going to deliberate past about 4:15 local time. That would be 15 minutes from now. So clearly they`ve got to be winding down in that jury room, but they are still at it at this point. VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. protesters outside are nothing, if not passionate. Check this out. This is what I was in the middle of all day long today. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Guilty! Guilty! Guilty! Guilty! Guilty! Guilty! UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Guilty! Guilty! Guilty! Guilty! Guilty! Guilty! UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Guilty! Guilty! Guilty! Guilty! Guilty! Guilty! UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Justice for Michael! UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Guilty! Guilty! Guilty! Guilty! Guilty! Guilty! UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Guilty! Guilty! Guilty! Guilty! Guilty! Guilty! UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Guilty! Guilty! Guilty! Guilty! Guilty! Guilty! (END VIDEO CLIP) VELEZ-MITCHELL: Richard Herman, criminal defense attorney, the fans are mad. They want justice. They were hoping for a verdict today. But the fact that the deliberations have gone on even this long, does that show that this may not be the open-and-shut case that many say it was? RICHARD HERMAN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, whoever said it was an open-and-shut case doesn`t know what we`re talking about, Jane. I fear for your safety with this crowd. Because, you know, no Propofol drip, you must acquit. This guy`s going to walk out of this courthouse like O.J. did. Jane, it`s going to be mayhem out there. Yes, the longer it goes, the better it is for the defense here. I believe the sides -- the jury is polarized. There`s one side pulling for Michael Jackson, one for Murray. They`re just not going to give up their positions. That`s why there`s no flash verdict here like we saw in the Casey Anthony case. We`re going to be into next week with this, Jane. VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Well, you`re in one ring. On the other side of the ring, Hamid Towfigh. And you are a former deputy D.A. in Los Angeles. So you represent the prosecution here. You heard a defense attorney saying he`s going to walk. HAMID TOWFIGH, FORMER DEPUTY D.A. IN LOS ANGELES: Well, I doubt that. In any side is disappointed that it`s taking so long, it`s certainly the prosecution. But two really good things for the prosecution happened today. One is that the jurors asked for highlighters and writing utensils, and then two, second is they still haven`t asked for any read-back of testimony. The reason the highlighters are actually significant is a Los Angeles County jury room is where they`re deliberating. There`s only a chalk board, a dry erase board and you`ve got the evidence with the jury instructions, and you`re not allowed to write on anything other than on the evidence. So the only thing you can write on is the jury instructions. So I think the reason they wanted that is the jury is going straight to the jury instructions. They`re going to the law. And that`s always good for the prosecution. VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, guess what? I went straight to the jury instructions. And I kind of call myself the 13th juror. Look what I did with the instructions. Take a look at that. I`m trying to make sense of it, OK? They`re very complicated. When we tell you about it here on HLN, we boil it down and make it very simple for the viewers, very simple graphics. But this -- this stuff, page after page after page is extremely complicated. And I`ve got to say, if you take that and you add the medical mumbo jumbo that has been spewed in this trial, the jurors are going to have to sort through a whole lot. Because some of the stuff that was said by, particularly by the defense, I think, was really confusing. Listen to this from closing statement. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) CHERNOFF: What did the prosecution tell you over and over again? Well, it`s just 126 of a pill. It`s just 1-300th of a pill. This is just math. You could keep going: 125 down to -- 075. Something like that. Keep going, ever 22 minutes, so finally you can get down to .08. (END VIDEO CLIP) VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. You know what? Everybody, you can say, I knew that. I know what he`s talking about. I go around and I ask people, what -- using some of the phrases that have come up in this trial, what`s first-pass (ph) metabolism? What`s bio-availability? Nobody knows. I want to go to Ian Halperin, author of "Unmasked: The Final Years of Michael Jackson." And actually, we`re going to -- he`s going to join us in a second. But Susan Constantine, jury consultant, you`ve been studying these jurors. I -- my hat`s off to them. They have endured 22 days of often mind-numbing testimony. Do you think they are in quicksand tonight? SUSAN CONSTANTINE, JURY CONSULTANT: Really, right now, they`re exhausted. They`ve had several days that they`ve been in court. Now they`re in deliberation. This is a very savvy jury. You know, we`ve got most all of them, they`ve served on juries before. So they know how exactly how to sift through the evidence. The thing is, I don`t think that -- where we`re missing this mark here is we cannot look at this like attorneys. These are the general public. They`ve got to go through line item by line item by line item and understand and make sense of all of the legal mumbo jumbo. So that`s what took up part of the time. Now what they`ve got to do now is the reason why they`re asking for all of this information, because this is an evidence-based jury pool. They want to cross every "I" and cross -- dot every "I" and cross every "t" before they come up with the verdict. VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let`s take a look at this jury by the numbers. Seven men, five women. Eight of them at least have served on a jury before. So they`re not novices here. They know what it entails. Five of them have personal experience with addiction, and three of them watched the Casey Anthony trial. Now, I understand we just got two buzzes. Two buzzes. That -- that is a question or a break, Hamid. That is not a verdict. It is -- we only have a couple of more minutes of deliberation for the day, because he said we`re going to follow a regular schedule, and it usually goes to 7:15. So what do you think two buzzes means? TOWFIGH: It`s probably a question. I think their question could be, "Could we stay longer and deliberate?" That`s possible. We saw in the Casey Anthony trial, they actually went into the weekend. In Los Angeles, that doesn`t happen, because the sheriffs don`t -- can`t be paid overtime. There`s budget issues. They may want to stay longer in this case. That`s definitely a possibility. VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow. So you`re saying to me, if they want to stay longer, the judge can only allow them to stay a little bit longer because of overtime, because of financial constraints? TOWFIGH: The judge -- absolutely. The judge can allow them to stay longer if he wants but probably because of financial and budget issues, he will not. VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow. This is fascinating. The jury is going home. We just heard that the jury is going home. OK. Day one. You heard it here. Day one of deliberations done, and there is no verdict. Michael Christian, you`re right outside -- the building we`re looking at, you`re right there at the action. What do you know? CHRISTIAN: Approximately one minute ago, Jane, the jury buzzed twice. That is a signal for a request, and their request was to leave for the day. So deliberations have finished for the day. They will be continuing Monday morning, we believe, at 8:30 local time, again, 11:30 Eastern. But again, the jurors are finished deliberating for today, so deliberations in this trial will continue on Monday morning. VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Well, you heard it here. We are here for the duration. The jury going home. But we`re going to be back on Monday. But don`t go anywhere, because we have analysis of all of the drama, inside the court, outside court, the trial highlights, the low lights, the confrontation, of course. Hang in there. We have everything you need to know here. And also go to HLNTV.com, HLNTV.com. It`s your crib note for this trial. Everything you need to know. We`ll be right back. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You see that? That`s why I love Michael Jackson. I love Michael Jackson. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right is right, wrong is wrong. That`s why we`re here. UNIDENTIFIED MALE (singing): When I had you to myself I didn`t want you around. The familiar faces always make you stand out in the crowd. (END VIDEO CLIP) (COMMERCIAL BREAK) (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) MICHAEL JACKSON, POP STAR: This will be it. This is it. When I say this is it, it really means this is it. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He entered into rehearsal full of energy. JERMAINE JACKSON, BROTHER OF MICHAEL JACKSON: The legendary King of Pop, Michael Jackson, passed away on Thursday, June 25. M. JACKSON: This is it. DR. CONRAD MURRAY, ON TRIAL FOR MICHAEL JACKSON`S DEATH: He complained that he couldn`t perform. He would have to cancel rehearsals again. WALGREN: Did Michael Jackson yell out for help? Did he gasp? UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was negligent. A doctor is... UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He didn`t murder him, though. He didn`t murder him. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A doctor is supposed to help, not kill. WALGREN: Would it still be your opinion that Conrad Murray is directly responsible for the death of Michael Jackson? UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Absolutely. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So what if he`s the junkie or he was a drug addict? He did not deserve to die. WALGREN: Did he choke? Were there sounds? We don`t know. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And he said he was very happy, because he felt like we were accomplishing the dream. M. JACKSON: This is it. And see you in July. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Guilty! Guilty! Guilty! UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Guilty! Guilty! Guilty! UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Guilty! Guilty! Guilty! UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Justice for Michael! Justice for Michael! UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Guilty! Guilty! Guilty! UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Guilty! Guilty! Guilty! UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Guilty! Guilty! Guilty! UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This one gal here, I found parking. I could have very well stayed at home in my peaceful environment. VELEZ-MITCHELL: You told me that you were red-hot mad. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Red hot. Meaning whatever pepper is the hottest, whatever chili is the hottest. I was hot when I got down here. (END VIDEOTAPE) VELEZ-MITCHELL: That lady came down to court because she heard that Katherine Jackson was headed to downtown L.A. It was a game of telephone. Her relatives told her there`s going to be a verdict. She got down there and found out, no, no. Just because Katherine Jackson came to a hotel in downtown Los Angeles, that does not mean we`ve already reached a verdict. We did not. The jury just finished their first day of deliberations moments ago. They deliberated for seven hours, 40 minutes and 42 seconds before going home moments ago. Richard Herman, you see the passion out there. You see how worked up people have gotten. Was there sort of this false expectation of, "Oh, we`re going to decide this lickety-split, and we`re not going to go into that quicksand of the medical evidence again?" Because my personal feeling is, once they go into that medical evidence, who knows how long it will take? HERMAN: No, Jane. You`re right. I mean, and you`re an attorney. If you were confused with those jury instructions... VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m not an attorney. HERMAN: You were? VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m the 13th juror. HERMAN: OK. I`m sorry. Madam Juror, Madam Juror, you read those instructions. You were confused. These jurors have no legal training. They`re absolutely confused. They`re confused with the evidence; they`re confused with the medical evidence. What happened in that room when Conrad Murray walked out? How did it happen? How -- who caused it? I mean, there`s so many questions, unanswered questions. Passion is one thing. You have to look at the evidence. Did the state prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Conrad Murray`s actions caused the death of Michael Jackson? You know, Michael Jackson was doing drugs for a long time. He was an addict. These jurors remember him dangling a baby out of a window. They remember his criminal trials. Look, they`re going to take it into consideration. You may not want that to happen, but they are. This is rife for a jury nullification. This is rife for some jurors to say, "No, we`re not going to blame Murray. Michael has to take responsibility for himself, and we`re not going to put it all on Conrad Murray." VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right, OK. Now, we`ve boiled it down to pretty simple terms, saying there`s two theories that the jury has to consider. One is, did Conrad Murray commit a lawful act, giving Michael Jackson Propofol, but doing it was criminal negligence, doing it in his room? The second one is did he fail, as his doctor, to perform his legal duty? For example, abandoning the patient, not calling 911, lying to the paramedics, lying to the E.R. doctors, failing to tell them that he gave him Propofol. Now let me say this, we`re delighted to have Dr. Nat Strand, an anesthesiologist who has educated us here on set over the last many weeks about Propofol and the administration of Propofol, how hard is it going to be for them to deliberate the medical evidence? NAT STRAND, ANESTHESIOLOGIST: You know, I really don`t think it`s going to be too hard. It`s a pretty cut-and-dry case. Of course, if they get into the details of blood levels and urine levels and how this is going, I think that they can get lost in it. But let`s remember, we don`t need the drip to acquire that, saying no drip, you must acquit. That`s an over-simplification. Look at what we do have. He wasn`t in the room. He wasn`t monitoring. He`s not... VELEZ-MITCHELL: More on the other side. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Michael Jackson trusted Conrad Murray. WALGREN: Ladies and gentlemen, the evidence in this case is overwhelming. The evidence in this case is abundantly clear that Conrad Murray acted with criminal negligence. (MUSIC: "Man in the Mirror") UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The last phase of the trial. ALBERTO ALVAREZ, FORMER MICHAEL JACKSON SECURITY: We have a gentleman here that needs help, and he`s not breathing. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The man murdered Michael, straight up he murdered him. And we are here to see justice served. (END VIDEO CLIP) VELEZ-MITCHELL: What goes on during the hours and hours jurors are finally allowed to talk about the case amongst themselves? Check out HLNTV.com. We`ve got all of it, the total scoop behind the curtain of the deliberations. We have the breakdown of all of the scenarios. We`ve got all the action leading up to the verdict. You`ve got to check this out: HLNTV.com. Now I want to take a look at some of the other famous trials and how long juries deliberated in those cases. O.J. Simpson, this is infamous. Less than four hours. Casey Anthony, ten hours, 40 minutes. Phil Specter, you know, the music mogul, murdered Lana Clarkson, 30 hours. Scott Peterson, seven days. OK. So we have already hit seven hours, 42 minutes and 42 seconds. Ian Halperin, author, "Unmasked: The Final Years of Michael Jackson," what do you make of day one of deliberations coming and going with no verdict? IAN HALPERIN, AUTHOR, "UNMASKED": Well, first off, Jane, congratulations to you. Big kudos for doing an outstanding job during this trial. You made it very exciting. You were very fair to both sides. VELEZ-MITCHELL: Thank you. HALPERIN: And it was an extremely compelling television. So again, congrats. Look, the bottom line here, I really sincerely hope they deliver a guilty verdict. And this scares the willies out of every doctor in North America who have done malpractice in the past. This could be a strong precedent for what`s obviously going on in the room right now. They`re having problems. You know, it`s just going to take one person in that jury room to destroy a guilty verdict, and I think that`s what might be happening now. I hope I`m wrong. VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, there is one woman with a biochemistry degree. It`s been a long day. A biochemistry degree. She is one of the most avid note-takers. And you know what they say, Dr. Nat Strand. You`re an anesthesiologist. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. It could be that she or one of the other jurors is like, "You know what? I know the skinny on this complex medical testimony, and you`re going to need to agree with me." And all you need is that one person to set themselves up as an expert or one person to say, "I don`t understand it," and in confusion there is reasonable doubt. And if you have confrontation over the medical testimony, it`s so complicated. It can go on for a long time. STRAND: I`m sure you`re right. If you`re one person that`s kind of rallying to everybody else to see what she sees, but even as a biochemistry major, or whatever degree she had in biochemistry, she`s still not really going to be familiar with Propofol. Let me just remind everybody that anesthesiology is four years of working about 80 hours a week before you`re certified to administer Propofol. So an anesthesiologist takes that long to really know the nitty-gritty about this drug. VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I think you`ve proven my point. Years to learn about Propofol. So how are they supposed to come up with a verdict in a couple of hours? Seven hours, 40 minutes, 42 seconds. What does next week hold? We`ll debate. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) MURRAY: I am an innocent man. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Most people who have ever tried to get inside the courtroom are here today. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He`s not here to speak for himself and that`s why we`re here. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The most basic, the most commonsense thing that we all learn as young children, that you call 91 immediately. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m here to get justice for Michael Jackson. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We`re ready to see justice done. DAVID WALGREN, PROSECUTOR: What Conrad Murray was doing was a pharmaceutical experiment on Michael Jackson. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`ve come to give Dr. Murray support. He saved my life. WALGREN: Conrad Murray left Prince, Paris, and Blanket without a father. (INAUDIBLE) UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m feeling like Conrad Murray is going down. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We`re here standing up for Dr. Conrad Murray. He`s an innocent man and we stand up for him. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Conrad Murray has been accused of infusing a dose of Propofol and leaving: All right. We have just concluded our first full day of jury deliberations in the Michael Jackson death trial. The jurors deliberated seven hours, 40 minutes and 42 seconds. They went home just a couple of minutes ago. Outside, Michael Jackson supporters were hopeful that there would be a verdict today and as the minutes and hours passed, tensions rose. Check this out. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Justice for Michael. Guilty. Guilty. Guilty. Guilty. Guilty. Guilty. Guilty. Guilty. Guilty. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Justice for Michael. (END VIDEO CLIP) VELEZ-MITCHELL: Susan Constantine, you`re a jury consultant. You read the jurors. Now, seven men, five women; about half of them Michael Jackson fans; but then, by the same token, about half of them have had experience with addiction in their families. So is that going to play off each other? SUSAN CONSTANTINE, JURY CONSULTANT: You know all of this is going to play. But what I`m looking at Jane, here is we`ve got again, seven men, five females. Females are generally harder on crime. So I think that the seven males is actually an advantage for Conrad Murray. But let me tell you something, here we have juror number ten, and you mentioned this briefly; exactly what I wrote down. This person is going to have a tremendous amount of influence in that deliberation room even though this person does not have a medical background. The jury pool in itself will look to this person because they`ve got chemistry background. Number two is head of business. This person could rally up the team. This is the one that is used to taking charge and has medical background -- or chemistry background. When I`m looking at the jury pool as whole, we`ve got a jury that -- again, what I`m going to mention is they are evidence- based, not emotion-based. I did not see any caretakers in this group here. They are going to make sure they`re going to get the exact right verdict. And that`s what I want to emphasize. That`s the reason why it`s taking so long. VELEZ-MITCHELL: Listen, Marcia Clark said that she thinks that they are going to wait until Monday to make it look good. That they could wait until Monday to make it look good. In other words, if they come in too quickly, a lot of times people are going to say, oh, they didn`t really ponder the evidence. So that`s what a lot of people said, for example, about the Casey Anthony case, that they just didn`t spend enough time. So if they come back on Monday and spend a good few hours studying it and then come with a verdict that might be respected a little bit more. We`re going to go out to the phone lines. Cleveland, North Carolina; your question or thought, Cleveland? CLEVELAND, NORTH CAROLINA (via telephone): Hello, Jane. VELEZ-MITCHELL: Hi. How are you doing? CLEVELAND: I love your show. VELEZ-MITCHELL: Thank you. CLEVELAND: I just want to speak really quickly about planting seeds in the jurors` minds and I don`t want anyone to get me wrong. Mr. Walgren and Ms. Brazil, did a stellar job, a laser job -- they were laser-focused. But on their closing rebuttal argument, right near at the end I just wish Mr. Walgren had not said at all what he said about, we may never know -- I can`t quote him verbatim -- but he said something like we may never know what exactly happens in the bedroom. I wish the jurors hadn`t heard that because right at the end, after the 22-day trial, that plants seeds in the jurors` minds. VELEZ-MITCHELL: A very good point, Cleveland. Let`s go back to Hamid Towfigh. You`re a former deputy DA. He may have a point there. I mean why emphasize that nobody really knows what happened? HAMID TOWFIGH, FORMER DEPUTY DA: Well, as a prosecutor, you never want to say, "You never know". Because a jury looks to you to explain to them what happened. You have to be confident. You have to have a firm theory of the case. Walgren did have a firm theory of the case. But sometimes when he made that statement, I kind of questioned how the jury is going to look at that. They might glance over it. One problem I had with this case all along is that the statement of Dr. Murray, which was integral to the case, Dave Walgren on the one hand is telling his experts, let`s take this as true and on the other hand he`s explaining to the jury that, well, this is was self-serving and he was trying to stay ahead of the game so maybe some of the stuff that he said wasn`t true. So the question that the jury might have at some point is, which one is it? Are we to take the whole statement as true or not? (CROSSTALK) VELEZ-MITCHELL: You`re talking about when he talked to the cops. TOWFIGH: Yes. VELEZ-MITCHELL: When Dr. Conrad Murray talked to the cops -- TOWFIGH: Two days after the death. VELEZ-MITCHELL: -- at the Ritz Carlton Marina del Ray two days after the death, before they knew that it was a homicide. TOWFIGH: Right. VELEZ-MITCHELL: And I thought that the prosecution did a very good job in explaining that one of the reasons they didn`t do everything right is that they didn`t know it was a homicide, originally. And they`re not psychic. So they didn`t know there was evidence to pick up because they weren`t regarding this as a homicide. Now, one thing that certainly strikes me as very bizarre is all the time, more than 20 minutes that Dr. Conrad Murray took to call 911 or order that 911 be called. Listen to this. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) WALGREN: He left a voice mail message and he could have used that time to call 911. He should have used the time much earlier to call 911 but we know for a fact that at 12:12 he made this phone call to Michael Williams and made no mention of 911 whatsoever because Conrad Murray knew what he had done. (END VIDEO CLIP) VELEZ-MITCHELL: Richard Herman, criminal defense attorney, there are a lot of people who say hey, he exhibited 17 extreme deviations from standard medical care. Any one of them could get him convicted on this. So that raises the question of why it`s taking so long. Any one of those numerous deviations from standard medical care, like not calling 911, could get him convicted. RICHARD HERMAN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, that`s what Dr. Shafer said, and I don`t buy it Jane. Dr. White when Dr. Murray when back in the room, Michael Jackson was dead; so it didn`t matter if he had called 911, that had nothing to do with the causation of Michael`s death. You made a great point, a caller did. If the prosecution doesn`t know what happened in that room and one of more jurors believe that Conrad Murray only gave him a 25-milligram shot of Propofol, waited there for 20 minutes to a half hour when within seven minutes the Propofol was out of his system, he had every right to walk out of that room, he didn`t have to monitor him. And if there is a superseding factor, intervening factor i.e., Michael Jackson drawing down some Lorazepam which was found in his stomach and/or injecting a lethal dose of Propofol, it`s over. Conrad Murray is going to walk out. VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I have Dr. Nat Strand here who is an anesthesiologist and who has emphasized over the course of this trial, how many times Dr. Murray did extreme deviations from medical care. So what do you make of Richard Herman`s argument? DR. NATALIE STRAND, ANESTHESIOLOGIST: Well, I have to say that one thing to remember is that Propofol was not the only drug in Michael`s system at the time. There were several different benzodiazepines as well as, we`ve talked about narcotics possibly playing a role. That is why monitoring is the key. Even the defense expert from the anesthesiologist`s side said that Propofol was a great agent for monitored anesthesia care. Monitored is integral here. We don`t know because there are no medical records. What was Michael`s respiratory rate? What was his heart rate? What was his oxygen medical saturation? If they have 20 or 30 minutes, maybe they would have a better case there but we don`t. We have no idea. VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. But the very fact that he didn`t keep records is one of the extreme deviations from standard medical care. I could see this debate and this argument going on in the jury room today with some people saying like me, hey, any one of these, not keeping the right equipment, that`s a standard deviation, an extreme deviation, let`s convict him. With someone else saying, wait, hold on. We don`t know the cause of death. Let`s go over the medical evidence again. And that could be the tug-of-war. Ten seconds. TOWFIGH: It could be. That`s why I don`t think they should have kept on the biochemist on the jury. You don`t want people with so-called specific education on these issues. You need to keep it simple and when you have a biochemist in the jury room, they could make things complicated. VELEZ-MITCHELL: Right. Yes, it is complicated. But we`ve got our handle on as the jury have very specific rules they`ve got to follow. As a matter of fact, it`s wild. And we`ve got 12 pages of jury instructions. The very thing that the jurors looked at today, you can look on at hlntv.com. Check out the jury instructions. See if you understand them. Or see if they seem very, very, very convoluted. Because one fan told me she thinks that Conrad Murray could walk because nobody could understand these jury instructions. Check it out, hlntv.com. We`ll be right back. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: These high school students are waiting to take a test that could change their lives. Not an SAT, but an EKG provided free through Screens for Teens. The tests can detect hidden heart conditions. Mary Beth Schewitz started a program in 2007 after her son died from sudden cardiac arrest. MARY BETH SCHEWITZ, SCREENS FOR TEENS: Max was a 20-year-old perfectly healthy adventurous boy who loved dealing with dangerous, venomous reptiles. But we never knew that the greatest risk to him was inside his own body. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: With donations, Mary Beth sets up screenings in High Schools north of Chicago. Trained parent volunteers perform the EKG tests and cardiologists review the results. SCHEWITZ: Every cardiac problem has a remedy if you find it in time. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Screens for Teens helped Caitlin Flery (ph) find out that she has a heart disorder. CAITLIN, STUDENT: Without the testing -- the testings I had, I would just think they`re normal. SCHEWITZ: Once you know, knowledge is power. (END VIDEO CLIP) (COMMERCIAL BREAK) (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) VELEZ-MITCHELL: We all have that sense of anticipation, what is going to happen? What is the jury going to decide? UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If the people here for Michael Jackson stand for what Michael Jackson lived and stood for, it would be about peace. It would be about love. VELEZ-MITCHELL: More and more people gathering here behind me. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We`re here for Michael. And they`re carrying those signs out there, you know, for Conrad Murray and it`s wrong. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A doctor is supposed to help heal, not kill. We are (INAUDIBLE) for medical physicians; they are not to enable. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He had his own. VELEZ-MITCHELL: The tempers are flaring. (END VIDEO CLIP) VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Wild scene all day at the L.A. Courthouse, Day one of deliberations just concluded moments ago. They deliberated seven hours, 40 minutes, 42 seconds over the fate of Michael Jackson`s doctor, Conrad Murray. Yes, it`s in the hands of the jury but, boy, outside one of the most intense days, the fans of Michael Jackson facing off against the passionate supporters of Dr. Conrad Murray. We`ve got folks on both sides of the issue here with us tonight. We begin with Erin Jacobs, Michael Jackson fan, co-founder of JusticeforMichaelJackson.com. Why do you think it got so heated outside court today and what would you say to that gentleman who you had been arguing with? ERIN JACOBS, CO-FOUNDER, JUSTICEFORMICHAELJACKSON.COM: I think it`s gotten heated because everybody is anxious, waiting for this verdict. We`ve been two years in the making here, waiting for Michael to have justice. And I think that that man that stands out on the curb every day, holding signs for an alleged killer is an idiot. And it`s a disgrace that he would speak negatively to the Jackson family when they walk into the courtroom. It`s just inappropriate. They have a right to stand out there and look like fools if they want to. But absolutely to be disrespectful to the victim`s family is beyond comprehension. VELEZ-MITCHELL: Willie Hampton, a friend of Dr. Conrad Murray, what do you say to that criticism? WILLIE HAMPTON, SUPPORTER OF DR. CONRAD MURRAY: First of all, she`s not talking about me. I have been very respectful to the Jackson`s family. I have tried to control my co-workers and asked them not to say things disrespectful to Michael`s mother, Mrs. Jackson. That`s the only person I`m concerned about. VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. So you`re saying, you did absolutely nothing inappropriate but why do you Willie think it got so heated outside court? Several times today there were verbal confrontations between the Michael Jackson fans and the Dr. Conrad Murray supporters and sometimes it was almost like a duel with the signs. HAMPTON: Yes, we`re dealing with people who are emotionally disturbed and emotionally imbalanced. They don`t want to deal with the fact that the doctor is innocent. He did not kill his friend, his patient, Mr. Michael Jackson. Mr. Michael Jackson was a superstar and hard-headed. Conrad Murray tried to help Michael. Conrad did everything he could. Michael was a hard case. Dr. Murray got in over his head with his patient, Michael Jackson. He was difficult to deal with. But either way, somebody else was in that house and somebody else killed Michael Jackson. And the facts do indicate that something else happened and it was not brought out sufficiently by the defense attorneys, by the LAPD or the prosecutor or the defense team. Nobody dealt with all the other information that was available. VELEZ-MITCHELL: Erin, there is a sentiment among a lot of people that maybe we don`t have the whole story. Maybe there are other people who bear the responsibility. What do you say to that? JACOBS: I completely disagree. I don`t agree with the conspiracy theory. We have no proof, substantial proof that there is anything involved other than what we`re dealing with in this courtroom. And I wanted to point out something that Willie said. His co-workers, we all know that they are being paid to stand out there every single day with their professionally-made signs and for him to say that Conrad Murray is not guilty when we had doctor after doctor get on the stand and show how he broke the standard of care 16 different times is ludicrous. VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, I asked Beatrice who is there, she is right there. She`s walking around. That`s Beatrice; we`ve all gotten to know her. I`ve gotten to know all the fans who are marching. That`s the lady walking right there with the hat and she has those signs that you say look professionally-made up. She told me, Willie, that she`s not being paid. Is she being paid or is she not, in your opinion? (CROSSTALK) HAMPTON: No, nobody is being paid. No, ma`am, absolutely not. JACOBS: Why did you say your co-worker? You`re a liar. (CROSSTALK) HAMPTON: We`re here on a mission to help Dr. Murray and to project his image correctly. Nobody is getting paid. Those signs -- I`m responsible for those signs. I have a law degree. I know Dr. Murray from Texas. He`s my friend. We have the same best friends. My friends in Texas and in Atlanta are relying on me to help Dr. Murray. I`m responsible for this. I am the team organizer. I am responsible. I did this. VELEZ-MITCHELL: I got you. Ten seconds, Erin respond. JACOBS: I don`t believe you. I think you`re a liar and a fraud. VELEZ-MITCHELL: Uh-oh. All right. Well, listen Beatrice told me that she`s not being paid and I take her word for it. A wild day and we`re going to keep you abreast right her on HLN. Up next, more analysis from Nancy Grace. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The jury will have to decide whether he`s guilty or not guilty based on the he presented in court. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The defendant is charged in count 1 with involuntary manslaughter. (END VIDEO CLIP) VELEZ-MITCHELL: We are here in Los Angeles on verdict watch. What is the jury going to decide? Who better than Nancy Grace to weigh in, former prosecutor extraordinaire? Nancy Grace I`m going to put you on the spot, a prediction -- guilty or not guilty. NANCY GRACE, HLN HOST: Well, you have to consider the source, Jane Velez-Mitchell because I was the one that said Simpson would go down on double murder and Tot Mom would get convicted. But I don`t think that there`s no way the jury can let Conrad Murray off the hook. Because that would mean that in this country, America, you can walk into a superstar`s mansion, dope him up with Propofol, let him die and then walk free. VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, there are Conrad Murray supporters outside with signs that say "If there`s no drip, you must acquit", obviously a takeoff on the O.J. Simpson case. If you can listen for a second to Ed Chernoff, the defense attorney making this point -- (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) ED CHERNOFF, DEFENSE ATTORNEY FOR CONRAD MURRAY: They spent six weeks trying to prove a drip because without a drip then what Dr. Murray gave Michael Jackson absolutely would not have harmed him without an unusual and intervening circumstance. (END VIDEO CLIP) VELEZ-MITCHELL: Ok. So, there`s Ed Chernoff talking about the prosecution saying that there has to be a drip when he`s saying there is no evidence of said drip. GRACE: Well, there is evidence of a drip, number one. And I appreciate that Chernoff after all of these weeks of testimony he can boil down the whole case to a rhyme or one of the protesters can. You know what; that`s better suited to a rap musician not a homicide trial. There is evidence of a drip. Number one, Alyssa Sleek (ph) the crime scene technician that saw it and testified to it; and number two, bodyguard Alberto Alvarez who stated that Conrad Murray asked him to dismantle the drip and put it away into a bag where it was later found. VELEZ-MITCHELL: Chernoff also spoke about a conspiracy theory. Listen to this. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) CHERNOFF: Alberto Alvarez has been offered $500,000 for his story. Now, how did Alberto Alvarez go from a story that`s worth $9,000 to a story that`s worth half a million dollars? (END VIDEO CLIP) VELEZ-MITCHELL: So, Nancy, what do you make of the conspiracy theory? GRACE: The same thing I made of practically every conspiracy theory that`s ever been advanced. They really don`t exist. Come on. Do you really think that many people can stick together with a big fat lie and endure cross-examination? No. No, no, no, Jane. FYI -- if you`re ever going to commit a homicide just do it yourself. Don`t involve anybody else. As soon as you do they start blabbing. No way can this conspiracy theory hold up. It`s another loony theory advanced by Chernoff. VELEZ-MITCHELL: Nancy Grace, thank you so much for weighing in. We appreciate your time. And we`ll remain on verdict watch. This is it. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) VELEZ-MITCHELL: Nancy, what`s next on "Dancing with the Stars"? GRACE: Well, we`re in week eight. There are five couples left. We`re going to do the tango and the jive. And I`m not really sure exactly what the tango is all about? What is it Tristan. TRISTAN MACMANUS, "DANCING WITH THE STARS": The tango, I mean we got a preview of the tango last week. We`ve done it with the group dance. This week we have our own dance. So I guess it`s pretty intense one. It`s going to be a fun one. This week we have an instant jive as well. And the difference with the instant dance is that you only get your music maybe 20 minutes or so before you do that. GRACE: Did you hear that, Jane? We`re going to have two dances one of them is a secret dance and we find out right before we go on the dance floor. VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I think that any secret that you unveil is going to be spectacular. I`ve said it before, I`ll say it again. Nancy, you rock. Tristan you rock. You can win this thing. I know you can. END Weather forecast

Return to Transcripts main page NANCY GRACE Dr. Conrad Murray`s Fate in Jury`s Hands Aired November 4, 2011 - 20:00 ET THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED. NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight in the sudden death of music icon Michael Jackson. We are in a verdict watch, the Michael Jackson homicide trial now with a jury of 12. Jackson`s live-in doctor, Conrad Murray, on trial for shooting Jackson up with a super-powerful surgical anesthetic, propofol, then leaving the superstar to die surrounded by his own urine. Bombshell tonight. As the jury deliberates, we learn that the defendant, Conrad Murray, is actually filming a movie about himself, hoping for a payday of at least a quarter million dollars. As millions of fans wait for justice, Jackson`s doctor, Conrad Murray, braces for a verdict. The jury clock is ticking. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now, you may think Dr. Murray is a sinner. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The most common sense thing that we all learned as young children. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You may think Dr. Murray is a sinner. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And it says, OK, you know what? This was an accident. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That you call 911 immediately. 911 OPERATOR: Get him on the floor. Did anybody witness what happened? UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No. Just the doctor, sir. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Gave a great performance. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was optimistic. He was looking toward the future. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This was Conrad Murray getting caught up in the celebrity lifestyle. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s not breathing. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: His eyes were open. His mouth was slightly open. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The defense is going to try to say all these horrible things. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Michael Jackson had a problem. MICHAEL JACKSON: Children are depressed in those hospitals. (END VIDEO CLIP) GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Bombshell tonight. The sudden death of music icon Michael Jackson -- we are in a verdict watch, the Jackson homicide trial now with a jury of 12. Let`s go straight out to Jean Casarez, legal correspondent "In Session." I`m now hearing we`ve got her satellite up. Jean, you`ve been at the courthouse all day long. The jury has just broken deliberations. I understand that the family, the grandmother, Ms. Jackson has been moved close to the courthouse in anticipation of the verdict. JEAN CASAREZ, "IN SESSION": You know, Nancy, there`s been so much anticipation around that courthouse today. And we learned late today that Katherine Jackson and Joe Jackson have actually come to downtown Los Angeles to have a hotel room. That`s where they are staying, we understand, in anticipation of a verdict. When it happens they want to be here. But the crowd kept building today, Nancy. The people, the fans kept coming of (ph) Michael Jackson, believing today was going to be the day. But just minutes ago, they were sent home for the weekend. They`ll be back again on Monday. GRACE: Everybody, we are live and taking your calls. Out to Jane Velez-Mitchell, host of "Issues With Jane Velez-Mitchell." Jane, thanks for being with us. The crowd around the courthouse is surging, everybody waiting for justice. Describe to me what`s going on outside the courthouse. JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST, "ISSUES WITH JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL": Well, I`ve got to tell you, today, Nancy, one of the biggest crowd we`ve seen since the start of this trial. And people were very anxious, awaiting a verdict which didn`t come today. And things got tense because you have the Dr. Conrad Murray supporters on one side, you have the Michael Jackson fans on the other, and they were clashing. They were clashing verbally. They were accusing each other of things, saying, I`m going to call the police on you. And it got very, very heated. And I think part of it`s just the anxiety. Everybody`s on pins and needles. There were a couple of false alarms. When word spread that Katherine was coming from Calabassas (ph) to downtown L.A., a lot of people assumed there was a verdict, incorrectly making that assumption. And so people swarmed here, and then they were furious when it turned out that she was simply staying at a nearby hotel in order to be ready for when the verdict did come. So a lot of frayed nerves. GRACE: You know, another thing we`ve learned, Jane Velez, is that during all of this, as the facts regarding Michael Jackson`s death have been recounted in the courtroom, the whole time, the defendant, Conrad Murray, has been filming a movie about himself? And that he hopes for a payday of at least a quarter million dollars. That`s what he`s been doing during all of this, Jane? VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, listen. He`s been spotted on the beach. He`s been spotted out and about with his girlfriend, who has become known as "instrument." She`s the one who testified that -- when she was asked what she did, she said, I worked on my instrument, meaning myself because I`m an actress and my body is an instrument. He was at Gladstone`s partying the day before closing arguments. So he`s out and about. He`s still a man about town, as it were. GRACE: You know, to Ellie Jostad. What can you tell me about this movie that the defendant -- you see him right there, Dr. Conrad Murray, on trial in the death of Michael Jackson, the superstar -- he`s filming a movie about himself? As a matter of fact, when he rides to the courthouse for the verdict, we`re expecting for a camera to be in the car. What the hey? ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Right. Radaronline is reporting that Dr. Conrad Murray has been involved in a documentary film about himself. It`s been going on. He`s been being interviewed for this documentary since he was charged with involuntary manslaughter in the death of Michael Jackson. They say this crew was with him last night, interviewed him for about an hour. They talked to him again this morning, where he`s been hunkered down, apparently, with his girlfriend, Nicole Alvarez, and other friends. They even plan to be in the car with him and record his reaction when he gets word that a verdict has been reached, when he`s headed to the courthouse to learn his fate, that they`ll be there with him. And also, Radar is reporting that the reason Murray is partaking in this -- participating in this project is that he hopes that when they sell this, or if they sell this movie to a network, from anywhere from of $250,000 to a million dollars, that he`ll get a cut of that and he`ll use it to pay his legal bills. GRACE: Well, you know what? I`m sure he`s got plenty of money, Ellie, because he was charging Michael Jackson $150,000 a month to live there and be his personal doctor. So I hardly doubt that Conrad Murray has any money problems. We are live and taking your calls. Out to Debbie in Louisiana. Hi, Debbie. What`s your question. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, ma`am. I`m a little confused here because this case seems to be pretty much cut and dried. He gave Michael Jackson this medicine. He should not have given the medicine. So I don`t understand what the issue is. And another thing I`m wondering -- by all accounts, from everything I`ve heard about Michael Jackson, he was not a vindictive, he was a mean person. What would he think about all of this? GRACE: You know, Beth Karas joining us, legal correspondent, "In Session," also joining us from L.A. You know, Beth, Debbie in Louisiana has a point. There`s no doubt that the doctor administered propofol in the past. But the whole defense is that on this occasion, Jackson self- administered. Break it down, Beth. BETH KARAS, LEGAL CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION": Well, you`re right. And the defense concedes the element of criminal negligence. They admit that Murray was negligent. The only issue really for the jury is causation, whether or not Michael Jackson is responsible for his death. But you know what? There`s no such thing as a fatal dose of propofol. It breaks down so fast in the body that any amount, even a tiny amount, can be deadly. You need to be by your patient`s side. You have to monitor and open the airway, give oxygen to your patient. Abandonment is the key here. So the jury may be hung up right now on causation -- that`s the real issue in the case -- and whether or not to blame Michael Jackson for it. But quite frankly, there is a view, a definition in the law that will allow the jury to convict even if they believe Michael Jackson did it to himself because Conrad Murray provided it and played a substantial role. And as you know, Nancy -- you`ve tried so many cases -- the cases that go to trial usually have an issue. GRACE: You know what, Beth? You`re right. You know, Jean Casarez, this whole issue the defense has raised about Jackson self-administering -- the reality is, is they said he self-administered with a syringe that had a capacity of 10 ccs, but there was only 25 mls in there, that that`s what he shot up. But Jean, you and I together have gone over the autopsy report line by line. His whole body was saturated! And in my mind, what accounts for it is that even after Jackson was dead, this saline drip was pumping him full of propofol. Jean, there`s no way that one syringe could have made him this intoxicated with propofol. JEAN CASAREZ, "IN SESSION": Well, the defense says there is because you can take that syringe, and if you do a strong, fast bolus into you, that can take the blood levels that high. But here`s the thing, Nancy. The intervening act actually makes the case stronger for the prosecution because Conrad Murray saw all the pill bottles around the bedroom. He recorded Jackson on May 10th with a slurred voice. He knew that Michael Jackson had issues. Therefore, an intervening act would be foreseeable. So Conrad Murray cannot be absolved of guilt because of an intervening act. GRACE: You know what? They could have used you in closing arguments, Jean Casarez. To Dr. Bethany Marshall -- in just a moment, we`re unleashing the lawyers -- Dr. Bethany, psychoanalyst, author of "Dealbreakers." Bethany, I want to get back to Conrad Murray and something Jean just said reminded me. You know he secretly taped his own client talking, all right? And he probably taped more than that. Now we know he`s shooting a movie about himself during the trial and during jury deliberations to make money. He`s still milking the cow, Dr. Bethany, still getting money out of Michael Jackson! BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: Well, he`s treating the case like he treated his patient. His interest in money corrupted his conscience, and that`s why there was gross negligence in terms of medical care. His interest in money is corrupting his conscience in terms of how he appears to the public and what is appropriate in this particular case. So I think it`s just the same behavior all the way through. And plus, the corruption of conscience has to do with his own be grandiosity because he overestimated his abilities with his patient. He did not have the extensive training that an anesthesiologist has. And in the same way, there`s a grandiosity that goes into filming himself and feeling that he`s going to get all of that money. And one final factor. I don`t think Michael Jackson ever paid him. And in a sense, it`s like he`s taking his pound flesh back out of the situation. You didn`t pay me. I`ve gone through all of this. You know what? I`m going to make money over your dead body by filming all of this and making money off of this situation. I would imagine that`s a part of his thought process. GRACE: Out to the lines. Sandy in Louisiana. Hi, Sandy. What`s your question, dear? UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Kudos to you and Tristan for making it through the week eight. I have a question. I am appalled with the defense, Nancy. How could this man get up there and say that the prosecution called Michael Jackson a baby? He reworded the whole statement. And is Conrad Murray`s documentary going to be called "How I Killed Michael Jackson"? GRACE: Sandy in Louisiana, I really like the way you think. I want to go out to Danny Bonaduce, morning show host 102.5 KZOK, a friend of Michael Jackson. Danny, you`ve made no secret of the fact that you have overcome substance abuse. And when you see someone, like Sandy in Louisiana just pointed out, taking advantage of Jackson, who we all know to be an addict -- he was an addict, a junkie at the time of his death. And now he`s filming a documentary that says, Hey, I killed Michael Jackson, should that be the title -- how does that make you feel and what`s your reaction to people still milking Jackson for money? DANNY BONADUCE, FRIEND OF MICHAEL JACKSON: First off, please don`t think I am being flippant in any way -- and by the way, it`s a pleasure to be back. Thank you for having me. Please don`t think I am being flippant, but the jury literally is still out on whether this guy is a terrible doctor, but the jury is not out on him being a terrible agent. He`s the singular star of a documentary about "I Killed Michael Jackson," the payday should be $5 million, not a quarter of a million dollars! Who`s doing this guy`s agent work? This guy should be getting rich off of this, which he will, which disgusts me! GRACE: Well, what he should be getting is four years behind bars, at the very least. In my mind, this should have been charged as a murder one. We are in a verdict watch in the Michael Jackson homicide trial, and we are taking your calls. Stay with us. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ladies and gentlemen, you`ve seen and heard all of the evidence in this case. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is it. I mean, this is really it. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Michael Jackson trusted Conrad Murray. DR. CONRAD MURRAY, JACKSON`S PRIVATE DOCTOR: Then he complained, I got to sleep, Dr. Conrad. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Poor Conrad Murray. 911 OPERATOR: Not conscious, he`s not breathing? UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, he`s not breathing, sir. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He trusted him with his life. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Michael should be here with us! MURRAY: Started immediately to perform CPR. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think he should have called 911 sooner. I do not, however, think it would have made any difference in the outcome of this case. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think there is anticipation in the air. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Be for Michael, be against Conrad Murray! UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There could be that verdict. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So what if he`s a junkie? He did not deserve to die. (END VIDEO CLIP) GRACE: We are live at the L.A. courthouse and taking your calls. Back out to Jane Velez, standing at the courthouse. Jane, the timeline -- the timeline is what`s so upsetting to me, how long it took Conrad Murray to finally call 911. Go through it with me, Jane. VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, he exhibited many, many deviations from standard medical care. Some of them were gross or extreme. Certainly, not calling 911 when you find your patient in crisis is an extreme deviation from standard medical care. He also didn`t have the proper medical equipment. He was supposed to have complex EKG machines and much more sophisticated oxometers (ph) and all sorts of other material that he did not have there. He did not have an assistant. So when he went to the bathroom, he essentially abandoned the patient. Abandoning the patient is another. Another extreme deviation, he lied to paramedics. And by the way, one of the jurors has a brother who`s an EMT. He lied to the paramedics and didn`t tell them the drugs he had given Michael Jackson, never mentioned the word "propofol." They get to the hospital, he never tells the ER doctors that he gave Michael Jackson propofol. It is one thing after the other and after the other. And as for the documentary, I can tell you that if I had a nickel for everybody who`s producing a documentary -- one guy out here shooting 60 hours of tape he hopes to sell to a network. Dr. Conrad Murray can have his buddy videotaping him. It`s not the same thing as having a deal with a network. They do not have a deal at this point. GRACE: Also joining us outside the courthouse with Jane is Ryan Smith, host of "In Session" and HLN`s "Morning Express" correspondent. Ryan, thank you for braving the weather to be with us, along with Jane. OK, you have been in the courtroom every single day, Ryan. What`s the standout moment, and who does it help, state or defense? RYAN SMITH, HOST, "IN SESSION": Oh, the standout moment for me and I think in this case for a lot of people is Dr. Steven Shafer on that stand. He was on the stand for three days. But you know what he did? He got the prosecution`s theory out about how Michael Jackson died. You know, Nancy, it`s a standard of care case. Did Dr. Murray do something that was criminally negligent or did he fail to do certain things in treating Michael Jackson who he had a legal duty to? But Dr. Shafer took on causation. That`s the defense`s theory. And he essentially said that slow IV drip -- that was what killed Michael Jackson. Right there, you got the jury in the jury room debating that, going through that. And if they believe it`s the slow IV drip, I don`t know how Dr. Murray will be found not guilty. Powerful (ph). GRACE: Everybody, we are live at the L.A. courthouse. We have got a panel of legal brainiacs. Also with us, A.J. Hammer and Bethany Marshall taking your calls. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are on verdict watch. JACKSON: I`ve never seen nothing like this in my life. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He should be here. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s Michael Jackson. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He trusted him with his life. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did not kill Michael Jackson. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is Conrad Murray guilty of involuntary manslaughter? MURRAY: I am an innocent man. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The jury clock, it keeps on ticking. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Justice demands a guilty verdict. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The jury in the Michael Jackson death trial has had the case now... (END VIDEO CLIP) GRACE: We are live, camped outside the L.A. courthouse, where a jury is deciding the fate of Dr. Conrad Murray, on trial in the death of superstar Michael Jackson. We are taking your calls. Very quickly, to A.J. Hammer, host of HLN`s "SHOWBIZ TONIGHT." First of all, A.J., what kind of a perv would tape Michael Jackson secretly on this audio recording, and now he`s still milking the cow and trying to make a documentary which is really about Jackson`s death -- it seems to be about Conrad Murray -- but he`s still trying to make money off Jackson? And how`s the family going to respond, A.J.? A.J. HAMMER, HOST, "SHOWBIZ TONIGHT": Well, the family`s not going to be happy with that at all, of course. And it`s going to be very interesting to see if Dr. Conrad Murray is even able to get an offer for this documentary that he`s reportedly filming. Will he even get a penny for it if he is acquitted? Now, if he`s found guilty, that could be an entirely different story because, apparently, reportedly, the cameras are following him around. They`re following his every move. And they are supposed to be there when he receives the phone call from his attorneys letting him know it`s time to come back and hear his fate, and then catch his first reaction once his fate has been read. I don`t think the family`s going to like it one bit, but they don`t like anything about this guy. GRACE: You know what`s amazing -- to Jane Velez-Mitchell, standing outside the courthouse -- is that even now, Conrad Murray`s still trying to make money off Michael Jackson. And he`s paying so much attention to his documentary. Too bad he couldn`t pay that attention to Michael Jackson as he lay dying. How are the fans going to react to all this? VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, they will be absolutely outraged as word spreads that Dr. Conrad Murray is allegedly trying to make a buck again, or more than a few bucks, off of his involvement with Michael Jackson by shooting this documentary. I`m sure most of them hope that he doesn`t get to sell it. The truth is that the attraction of this case is on Michael Jackson. It has nothing to do with Conrad Murray. He`s not the charismatic figure here. I can tell you these fans are organized. It`s been raining on and off all day. It hasn`t stopped them. And they represent people from around the world. I talked to a woman who has organized fans from around the world, including 15 planes that have flown in different days around the courthouse praising Michael Jackson and demanding justice. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) JACKSON: This is the final -- this is the final curtain call. MURRAY: Your Honor, I am an innocent man. JACKSON: Never seen anything like this in the world. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re playing roulette with Michael Jackson`s life at that point. (END VIDEO CLIP) (COMMERCIAL BREAK) (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Their theory is that Michael Jackson injected himself with propofol, causing his own death. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They want you to convict Doctor Murray for the actions of Michael Jackson. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Doctor Murray left the room and say he got up and took more pills and also injected more propofol. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If he acted so recklessly with the life of Michael Jackson in his hands that it amounts to indifference to the very life of Michael Jackson. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did he appear to be dead? UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He only wanted to sleep because he had problems with sleeping. Not to die. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He died so quickly. He never even closed his eyes. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now what this is fundamentally about is trust. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Justice shall prevail. MICHAEL JACKSON, SINGER: I feel so much love. I felt it then. I`m so happy that that love is still there. (END VIDEOTAPE) NANCY GRACE, HLN HOST: We`re live in L.A. and taking your calls. Joining us right now attorney for Michael Jackson`s other doctor, Doctor Arnold Klein, Garo Ghazarian. Garo, thanks for being with us. What do you believe is the right decision in this case, guilty or not guilty and why? GARO GHAZARIAN, DOCTOR ARNOLD KLEIN`S ATTORNEY: Well, the right decision is obviously guilty. I`m not sure that the jury will reach it. I hope they do. And the reason why is because the evidence is overwhelming and the defense argument essentially is suggesting that a passenger in a car driven by a drunk driver is responsible for a fatality that takes place in this case the fatality being the passenger`s own fatality. So I think it`s a no brainer. GRACE: With us, Garo Ghazarian representing Doctor Arnold Klein. Also with us, Doctor Cathleen London, assistant physician and New York Presbyterian professor. Doctor, thank you for being with us. Can you please explain what Jackson would have to do to self-administer this propofol in his knee? DOCTOR CATHLEEN LONDON, ASSISTANT PHYSICIAN, NEW YORK PRESBYTERIAN PROFESSOR: Well, that the thing. So, he got a catheter inserted down in his leg. He has to somehow get up and get the syringe and reach down and insert it into that catheter which they just don`t kind of go in, you have to really get that in there. Then inject it and then somehow magically get rid of the syringe because it wasn`t there. It just makes no sense at all especially if he had already so much medication on board. There`s no way. No way. GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. Joining us tonight, Peter Odom, Atlanta defense attorney. Also with us, Renee Rockwell veteran defense attorney as well. Renee what do you do in the middle of a homicide trial when you find out that your client is still trying to milk the cow like Doctor Conrad Murray filming a documentary about himself, really about the Michael Jackson trial? I wish the jury knew that. Of course they won`t. RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: They may know. They may know that. What you hope, Nancy, if a hung jury, if there`s a hung jury you hope that these tapes and these admissions what they could possibly be later don`t bubble up to the top of the pool next time around if the trial service retried, the case retried. GRACE: OK. Let me translate that. I think what Renee was trying to say is all the footage that they are recording right now could have some type of an admission in it that could be used at a later trial. Please don`t jinx it Renee with your mistrial wishes in your not guilty dreams. ROCKWELL: I`m saying it`s a hung jury. GRACE: I`m sure you do. OK, Peter Odom. Weigh in. What about it? PETER ODOM, ATLANTA DEFENSE ATTORNEY: The motivation for him filming this, Nancy, is financial. I`ll grant you that but it`s because the state of California is trying to take away, first of all his freedom and his ability to make a living as a doctor for the rest of his life. This was a desperate man. He never got paid by Michael Jackson. GRACE: He wants to make a living as a doctor. ODOM: He`s got to buy groceries like everybody else. GRACE: Go dig ditches for all I care. But it will be a cold day and you know where before this guy practices medicine again. Make money. Make money. He`s going to make a mint as it is. He`s probably got book deals lined up about the yin yang, Peter Odom. ODOM: Well, maybe he does because he has to make some kind of a living after this is all over. This is self-preservation, Nancy. I completely understand it. GRACE: I think you`re snide. You know what it might be OK with you. Maybe he does. But Bethany Marshall, it`s not OK with me to walk into somebody`s house, shoot them up in a knee where propofol is still pumping into their dead body and they make a quarter million dollars on some mockumentary and get a took deal? I don`t like it Bethany. BETHANY MARSHAL, PSYCHOANALYST, AUTHOR, DEAL BREAKERS: No. you know what, if filming a documentary about yourself is a part of the same inherent grandiosity that led him to make the medical mistakes in the first place. And as far as I`m concerned, Conrad Murray and Michael Jackson made a pact with the devil with each other. And I see this with people all the time who act out something disastrous together that they pair up on the basis of mutual pathology both being out of control and operating outside of the systems of society. GRACE: To the lines. Chris from California. Hi, dear what`s your question? CHRIS, CALLER, CALIFORNIA: Thank you, Nancy for taking my call. GRACE: Thank you for calling. CHRIS: First, I want to say thank you so much for all you do. For women and children all over the world. God bless you for that. GRACE: Thank you. CHRIS: And I`m confused, Nancy about this propofol. They are saying that Michael gave himself the propofol that took his life. And I asked the doctor how come I woke up so fast. He told me he had to give me something to wake me up. So, how could it be possible that Michael Jackson could give himself the propofol that took his life too soon and why is Doctor Murray not being charged with premeditated murder? You taught me -- GRACE: Oh, Chris in California, I agree with you. It should have been a murder one charge with the syringe being the murder weapon. Jean Casarez, answer her question, please. JEAN CASAREZ, IN SESSION LEGAL CORRESPONDENT: All right. There`s a syringe and Doctor Murray said he gave him 25 milligrams of propofol. A very small amount. Said he was trying to wean him off of it that lasted about 15 to 20 minutes. And so, after that he would be awake, he`s controllable, I can`t sleep, I got to sleep. He reached for it himself and put it in. GRACE: Renee Rockwell, Peter Odom, we`re unleashing the lawyers. Go ahead. I don`t want to jinx it but I want to hear your final call. Guilty, not guilty, hung, Renee. ROCKWELL: Hung jury. GRACE: Why? ROCKWELL: Well because, Nancy, it`s just going to take one to make this -- GRACE: That`s true in every case. ROCKWELL: That`s right. And you got to factor in an L.A. jury. You think about one jury that might think they will have 15 minutes of glory if they are told out juror. GRACE: OK. Hung. Peter Odom, weigh in. ODOM: Hung jury or not guilty. Reason being -- GRACE: No, no, Peter you got to pick one. Pick one. ODOM: Not guilty. This does not rise to the level of criminal negligence. Civil negligence maybe not criminal. GRACE: I`m going with guilty. Everybody, we`ll be right back. But four years ago today a miracle. John David and little Lucy were born. It was a Sunday morning when we were rushed to the ER where I was told one of my twins, Lucy and I were dying. In emergency surgery, the twins were cut out. I was so weak I couldn`t sit up. I could only kiss my left index finger and put it on their foreheads before we were raced to two separate ICUs. And now, because of your prayers the twins are 4 years old. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: One of these couples has the lowest combined total of judges` scores and viewer votes and will be eliminated tonight. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nancy and Tristan, David and Kim on this seventh week of competition the couple with the lowest overall combined total and therefore leaving right now is -- UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We get two sets of scores this week and that`s extra stressful. GRACE: We have to have really hard choreography to beat them. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: David and Kim. (END VIDEOTAPE) GRACE: Good evening everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Season 13, "Dancing with the Stars". Tonight an all-star cast of stars taking your calls, contestants, pro dancers and we`re all here together. First I want to go straight out to a very special couple, Chaz Bono and Lacey Schwimmer. Now, I`ve told Tristan very often when I threaten to ditch him for a new partner if I could have had anybody it would have been Lacey Schwimmer. All right first of all to you. TRISTAN MACMANUS, NANCY GRACE`S PARTNER, DANCING WITH THE STARS SEASON 13: I said the same. (LAUGHTER) GRACE: Chaz, first of all to you. You`ve been all over the place. Since you were booted off "Dancing with the Stars". I want you to tell me what was it like when you went down those steps and you heard your name called out? CHAZ BONO, CONTESTANT, DANCING WITH THE STARS SEASON 13: It`s not fun. I mean it`s not what you want to hear. So, but you know, I had to look -- I had a good run. I had a great time. I left with -- I had so many gift from doing the show. So, it was my time. But I wish I could have hung around to hang without you more, Nancy. GRACE: And also to you, Lacey Schwimmer, when you went down after all that hard work and p.s. I thought your phantom of the opera dance was your very best. I disagreed with the judges. When you went down to the bottom what was that like? You were standing there with Chaz. We were all watching you. Everybody had their fingers and toes crossed. What was that like? LACEY SCHWIMMER, PROFESSIONAL DANCER, DANCING WITH THE STARS: You know it`s always nerve-racking but at the same time we enjoyed every minute on this show. So, you know, to go out with a bang and with all the friend that we made it was, you know, it`s just been great. You got to take it. BONO: And I was glad I thought it was a good dance too. I was really happy to go out with a dance that at least I felt I did well. SCHWIMMER: Yes. GRACE: You know there`s a lot of controversy, Chaz, when you and your mom Cher were angry about the way some of the comments the judges had made to you. Explain. BONO: Well, you know, it`s hard. It seems so long ago but I felt -- it really does. GRACE: Yes. It was two weeks. BONO: I know. There was so much good that did come out of the show. I felt like a lot of times Bruno made comments about me physically that had nothing to do with my dancing and I would have much rather have been critiqued on my actual dancing versus how I look. GRACE: You know, every time everybody, I would see Lacey at dance rehearsals she would have one foot behind an ear. She walks around like that. I`ve never seen anybody but my little girl Lucy did. She walks now one on ground and one up here. Say hi Nancy. That`s your foot by your ear. (LAUGHTER) Everybody, we`re taking your calls. Out to Debbie in Georgia. Hi, Debbie, what`s your question? DEBBIE, CALLER, GEORGIA: Hi, Nancy and Tristan. How do you get so much done in 24 hours every week? I panic until I know you and Tristan are safe. I think I have the meltdown as badly as do you. I think I`m your biggest fan. And Tristan, you all dance so beautifully together. You`re my hero, Nancy. GRACE: You know what Debbie in Georgia, I really appreciate that. I got to tell you, Tristan is the one that got the nine a few weeks ago, time one that got the seven. He goes everything he can to make me look good from the choreography to out on the dance floor. I got to tell you, that clip they are showing right now I had totally gone blank. He was just kind a like dragging me along. I know it doesn`t look like right there, blank. But, Debbie, you`re probably a working mom and you probably get just as much done in a different way. If I didn`t have Tristan barking out one, two, three, four in my ear I would not be dancing seven or eight hours a day I can guarantee you that. So, I kind of have a personal trainer. Everybody, we`re taking your calls but joining me right now is another special guest, Holly Madison. Now we`ve all seen photos of Holly. She has been in every magazine and recently there was a picture of -- Holly your with me? There you are. Holly, you`re getting your ear put in. Hi. Can you hear me yet? HOLLY MADISON, CONTESTANT, DANCING WITH THE STARS: How are you? GRACE: You know I`m great. And I want to tell you you`re gorgeous and you`re a great dancer. Lately, I`ve read in a couple of magazines that you have gained weight. And I noticed they waited for to you bend over and pick something up off the floor and there was like an eighth of an inch of your tummy and so that`s the big story. Now, since "Dancing with the Stars", no matter what you do, no matter if you`re at the grocery store, if you`re out, you know, at a park, they always have photos of you. Does that bug you, Holly Madison? MADISON: Not really. I have a sense of humor about it. I just think it`s funny. You know it comes with the territory of being on TV. So, it`s just kind of amusing, I think. GRACE: And, remember, Holly Madison is the star of peak show, "Planet Hollywood" and "Holly`s World" on E! Well, you know what, I was completely disgusted when I saw that one eight of an inch`s scan. You really got to do something about that. What do you up to now, 98, 99 pounds? MADISON: Yes. Trying to tuck in my stomach, keep it in my pants. (LAUGHTER) GRACE: OK. Back out to the lines. Kimberly in Virginia. Hi, Kimberly. What`s your question? KIMBERLY, CALLER, VIRGINIA: I just want to say first I love you on "Dancing with the Stars". And my question is for Chaz. I thought you did an amazing job. I want to see you and Nancy in the final two. How did you feel when the judges gave you these, I think, horrible things to you. Did it make you want to go out there and say I`ll show you or make you want to I don`t know if I want to do this anymore? BONO: No. I mean I love doing it. It was -- you know like we had such a good time and I loved doing the show and I wish I could have done it you know longer. And the judge`s scores you know and comments can be frustrating at time -- SCHWIMMER: But I also think it`s pushes you too BONO: Yes. It pushes you to do your best too. GRACE: Right now, CNN heroes. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) GEORGE LOPEZ, ACTOR: I`m George Lopez. Two years ago I had an honor of presenting CNN heroes an all start preview. As founder Lopez foundation I`m committed to helping underprivileged children, adults and military families. I`m also committed to increase an awareness about kidney disease and organ donation. I`m thrilled to help introduce one of the top ten CNN heroes for 2011. SAM DIMICELI, CNN HEROES: When I go through suburb America where the small towns, everybody is trying to hold up their head with pride. I know it is tough in the recession. These people behind closed doors tell the neighbors they`re fine. They go in the house and start. How much you`re bill right now? UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Gas bill, I owe about $800. DIMICELI: I find the situation is getting worse. They need food. They need help with the utilities. I mean, this is 2011 in America. We should be helping each other. I`m Sal Dimiceli. My mission is to help those that have fallen on hard times. Here is $100 for gas. I help with necessities and daily like and at the same time get them together to do a budget so they can continue to survive. I want them to feel free. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m so happy. CROWD: Thank you. DIMICELI: I want them to feel the compassion that we`re trying to share, to wrap our arms around them and say come on I have extra strength I want to share with you, let`s get you back on your feet. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. The next couple safe is Nancy and Tristan! (APPLAUSE) UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Nancy and Tristan. You`re safe! (END VIDEO CLIP) GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. We are live with an all-star lineup from "Dancing with the Stars" and we are taking your calls. I`m going back to Kim Johnson, professional dancer, paired with David Arquette, the big movie star. Kym, what was your favorite thing about Arquette? KYM JOHNSON, PROFESSIONAL DANCER, DANCING WITH THE STARS (via telephone): His personality. He came into the show. He was very, very nervous and insecure. He didn`t really, even his posture. He would stand with shoulders over. I said to him one time, why don`t you stand up straight. And he said I walk around in my everyday life guarding my head and my heart. And I just like so like would you lay my heart, this was a personal goal for him as well, even standing up straight and accepting the love. He is such a really beautiful, sweet person and the show is more than learning how to dance for him. GRACE: You know, we`re showing you right now, and it is absolutely beautiful. I remember every one of your dances. Kym, you have won the mirror ball trophy I think twice. I know last time with Hines ward. How hard is it working with a professional athlete? JOHNSON: The athletes are amazing because they know what it takes to win. And Hines was amazing, he was very athletic, and picked things up very quick. He had a great mentality as well for it, but everybody that I`ve had I have been so lucky with all the celebrities that come on and take part in the show. I`ve been lucky with everyone I`ve had. GRACE: With us, Kym Johnson. Let`s remember Army Staff Sergeant Michael Schaefer, 25, Springfield, killed in Afghanistan. Awarded Bronze start, silver star, Nation`s third highest award for combat valor, also served in Iraq. Loved basketball, hiking, leaves behind parents Karen and Dan that raised him, biological dad Mark. Brothers Tim and sisters Sarah, Widow Danielle, son Devon. Michael Shafer, American hero. Thanks to our guests, but especially to you for being with us. Everyone, I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. Until then, good night, friend. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) END Weather forecast

Return to Transcripts main page SHOWBIZ TONIGHT Jury for Trial of Michael Jackson`s Doctor in Deliberation; Michael Jackson`s Children Entering Show Business; Justin Bieber Denies he`s a Father; Reality Show Stars Discuss Physical Altercations on Camera Aired November 4, 2011 - 23:00:00 ET THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED. A.J. HAMMER, HLN HOST, "SHOWBIZ TONIGHT": Big news, breaking tonight on "SHOWBIZ TONIGHT." Verdict watch -- tonight, the great Michael Jackson death trial mystery. The jury still undecided. What`s holding them up? As SHOWBIZ TONIGHT reveals, why they could let Conrad Murray go. Bieber strikes back. For the very first time Justin Bieber directly responds today to the fan who claims she gave birth to his love child. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The headlines, someone is filing a paternity suit, saying you are the father of her three-month-old son. What would you like say about that? (END VIDEO CLIP) HAMMER: Plus, on a special edition of "SHOWBIZ TONIGHT," showbiz reality secrets. Reality fight club -- from the "Real House Wives," to "The Jersey Shore." Are all those reality fights real or really fake? SHOWBIZ TONIGHT shows the reality secrets. TV` most provocative entertainment news show breaks news right now. Hello, I`m A.J. Hammer in New York with big news breaking tonight. So what`s the hold up? Why did the jury in the Michael Jackson death trial go at it all day today on the first day of deliberations without making up their minds? After the defense and prosecution finish their closing arguments, there was a widespread feeling that, you know what, this was a slam dunk, that Dr. Conrad Murray will be found guilty of involuntary manslaughter in the death of Michael Jackson. So what`s the mystery behind the hold up? We will get to that in a second. But first, what about the kids, Michael`s two children? Like everyone else, they are on pins and needles waiting for a verdict so they can move on with their lives as well. And SHOWBIZ TONIGHT can tell you that they are already laying groundwork to follow in the footsteps of their father in show business. But would that be the wrong thing to do? Here is "SHOWBIZ TONIGHT`s" Kareen Wynter with a SHOWBIZ TONIGHT special report. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) KAREEN WYNTER, HLN ENTERTAINMENT CORRESPONDENT:fields: That was SHOWBIZ TONIGHT`s Kareen Wynter, who joins us right now from outside the courthouse in Los Angeles where the jury has been busy deliberating. Also with me in New York tonight, Sunny Hostin, legal contributor with "In Session" on TruTV. I think it`s going to be fascinating to see what the King of Pop`s kids do as they grow up and they mature. But right now, of course, all eyes are on the jury in the Dr. Conrad Murray trial. Tonight, the big question is this -- could they actually acquit Michael`s doctor of involuntary manslaughter. I know that a lot of people think that Dr. Murray being found not guilty is farfetched that point. But HLN`s own Nancy Grace just revealed on "Good Morning America" that she actually thinks Conrad Murray could beat the rap. Watch very closely as Nancy explains why she thinks that could actually happen. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) NANCY GRACE, HLN HOST: I think that an acquittal, especially in California, hello, O.J. Simpson, anything could happen here. And another thing, Dan, as much as I don`t like it, people generally like their doctors. I liked my doctor. I went under the knife and he was the last thing I saw, wondering, will I make it? Will my twins grow up without a mother? Murray very wisely stayed mum. He let the jury suspect he might be guilty rather than take the stand and confirm their suspicions. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAMMER: So Sunny, Nancy is saying that the jurors typically do not like to convict doctors. Is that your experience? You worked as a prosecutor? SUNNY HOSTIN, CNN LEGAL CONTRIBUTOR: I love Nancy, as you know, but I disagree with her on that. I think that certainly jurors hold doctors in a high regard. They love their own doctors. But they also put them on a pedestal. They expect them to do no harm. They expect them to be healers. In this case, you have a doctor that did some harm and didn`t follow the standards of care. And then I think the jury is more likely to come down on him because they want to reaffirm the notion that if you are a doctor one are to do no harm and you are to be a healer, not a killer. HAMMER: On the idea he still could be acquitted, of course Kareen, we have doctor versus the memory of perhaps the most legendary pop star of all time. Does it seem to you that the doctor factor in your mind may help Conrad Murray win this? WYNTER: In this case, absolutely not. It makes sense, A.J., that people hate convicting doctors. But there is no bigger title than the king of pop, than one of the world`s greatest entertainers. We are talking about the Jackson family. Just think for a second of the weight that that name carries, and if you are a juror, the weight of responsibility on your shoulders to get this case right, one of the biggest cases ever. I mean, look at Jackson family. Why do you think there was such a heavy presence from the beginning with Katherine, with Joe, with LaToya, even Janet putting her big world tour on hold to come here? You know. Just imagine them being in court and jurors looking across and saying, this is this high profile family. It carries a lot of weight and I think Dr. Conrad Murray is in for a lot of trouble because his title doesn`t come close to M.J.`s HAMMER: To that point, one of the reasons that the lead defense attorney told the jury during closing arguments should acquit him, he claimed that if Michael Jackson weren`t the victim in this case, there wouldn`t even be a trial. Let`s see how that moment played out here on HLN. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What they are really asking you to do, just say it, what they are really asking you to do, is to convict Dr. Murray for the actions of Michael Jackson. You know, we`ve been dancing around this for six weeks. Maybe two years. Somebody`s got to say it. Somebody`s got to tell the truth. Somebody`s got to just say it. If it were anybody else but Michael Jackson, anybody else, would this doctor be here today? (END VIDEO CLIP) HAMMER: Sunny, do you buy that argument, that if it were anybody else but Michael Jackson, it wouldn`t be an involuntary manslaughter trial? Perhaps it would be a civil case? HOSTIN: I don`t buy that, because no one else could afford to have Propofol given to them in a surgical setting in their bedroom. Michael Jackson was a celebrity and it comes from the fact that this doctor chose to do this. So, no, I don`t think that a prosecutor wouldn`t have brought this case if not for Michael Jackson. HAMMER: So if he is acquitted, it is likely not to happen because Michael Jackson is the man laying dead here? HOSTIN: Sure. (LAUGHTER) HAMMER: Interesting to ponder. We will have to wait and see what happens. I guess it`ll all come down Monday. Or else all bets are off. Kareen Wynter, Sunny Hostin, thank you both. As we move on tonight, Bieber fires back. Justin Bieber speaking out today for the very first time directly about the claims that fathered a child. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) BIEBER: I`m going to be target, but I`m never going to be a victim, you know. I think this is crazy. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAMMER: Now the woman pointing the finger is letting her lawyers loose. Kardashian damage control tonight. Kim`s mom goes on the offense defending her daughter against all of the Kardashian haters. Coming up later at the bottom of the hour, wait until you see this, showbiz reality secrets. We will reveal the secrets behind the biggest reality shows on TV, and tonight reality fight club. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You want to hit me tough guy? UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I will snap your neck. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Bring it. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No one is touching anyone in this house. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAMMER: The insults, the shouts, the flying fists. We expose what is real and what`s fake. This is SHOWBIZ TONIGHT on HLN news and views. Here comes the news ticker. These are more stories from the newsroom making news tonight. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) LEONARDO DICAPRIO, ACTOR: I think it was a Clint Eastwood scene in every respect because we were beating the crap out of each other. We had blood on our face, and then that happened. You will have to ask him how it worked that way. But I think it really worked considering these two characters today reserve so much of who they were for so many years. (END VIDEO CLIP) (COMMERCIAL BREAK) (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) BIEBER: Like I said before, there`s going to be goods and bads about this business. And I want to focus on what`s reel, like my fans are real. The charity work for this album is real. This is real. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAMMER: Justin Bieber faces his fans and tough questions on "The Today Show" this morning. He is speaking out by claims by a young woman that he is the father of her child. So is it true? Well, Justin sets the record straight. Welcome back it "SHOWBIZ TONIGHT." I`m A.J. Hammer in New York. Tonight, Bieb`s baby battle. Justin Bieber on the warpath against the woman who claims he is the father of her three-month-old baby boy. In his very first interview about the claim Bieber said on "The Today Show" this morning that he want to shut the reports down for good. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) BIEBER: I would just like to say, basically, that none of these allegations are true. And I know that I`m going to be -- I`m going to be a target, but I`m never going to be a victim. I think it`s crazy because every night after the show, I`ve gone right from the stage right to my car. So it`s crazy that some people want to make up such false allegations. But to set the record straight, none of it is true. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you know this woman? Her name is -- BIEBER: I`ve never met the woman. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAMMER: Has the Biebs done enough? With me right now in New York is Sunny Hostin. Sunny, we just sat there and watched it together, Justin Bieber and his handsome new haircut. He says he never met the woman. He says all of the allegations are false. Has he done enough in your mind to make this all go away, or do you think perhaps this isn`t quite the end just yet? HOSTIN: I think that that he did what he needed to do what he did certainly, because before, remember, he tweeted this strange tweet, not addressing the issue head on. When there`s a situation like this, you have to address it head on. That`s what he just did. I don`t know the woman, this is not true. Will it I go away? I don`t think so. This is Justin Bieber. People are still talking about it. There a hearing December 15th. They are asking him for some DNA. So I don`t think it`ll go away but this is what he needed to do, and I`m so glad that he did it. HAMMER: I am too. Here`s the thing, though. The attorneys for the 20-year-old accuser, this woman Mariah Yeater, just revealed to HLN`s Dr. Drew that they have what they call credible evidence that Bieber is the father of this child. So I got to ask you as an attorney, do you think lawyers would go on a national television show like Dr. Drew on HLN and say something like that if they didn`t have the goods in some way. It seems very suspect. HOSTIN: It does seem suspect. And lawyers aren`t allowed to file frivolous suites. And they certainly know the law. You can`t defame people. You can`t make things up. So it gives me pause they say they have this other proof. But clients snooker attorneys all the time. Perhaps she`s got proof, but it`s not really accurate. HAMMER: It could be a good snooker. HOSTIN: It could be a good snookering. HAMMER: It might be going on here is what I`m trying to say. All right, I have to talk about Kim Kardashian, maybe that`s why I`m getting all worked up. The divorce drama just rolls on. And Kim started wrapping up her trip down under in Australia. Her mom, Kris Jenner, is on damage control right now. At the same time Wendy Williams grilled Kris this morning on a number of burning questions, including those reports Kim may have actually cast Kris Humphries in the role of her husband on the reality show. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) KRIS JENNER, REALITY TV STAR: My god, that is the most ridiculous thing I`ve ever heard. WENDY WILLIAMS, TV TALK SHOW HOST: That they liked around for Knicks and Nets and Jets and people to cast -- JENNER: Knicks and Nets and Jets, OK. Well, listen. I don`t think Kim would, first of all, ever do something like that. WILLIAMS: No? JENNER: No. She`s -- WILLIAMS: No, not our Kim. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAMMER: I`ve got to tell you, Sunny, I don`t buy that she would do it. But is it so farfetched? HOSTIN: It`s not really farfetched. I mean, this is woman who, yes, is a star, now a reality star. She made a lot of money as a businesswoman. But she started out making a porn tape. HAMMER: You`re not going to let her live that down, are you? It`s a sex tape, not a porn tape. HOSTIN: That`s Right, sex tape. HAMMER: I don`t want you to get snookered. (LAUGHTER) HAMMER: Thank you, Sunny Hostin, very much. As we move on tonight, you`ve got to see what we have coming up on a special edition of SHOWBIZ TONIGHT. At the bottom of the hour, showbiz reality secrets. We are revealing the secrets behind the biggest reality shows on TV. Tonight, reality fight club. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You want to hit me tough guy? UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I will snap your neck. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Bring it. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No one is touching anyone in this house. (END VIDEO CLIP) Are all of those reality fights real or really fake? Well, SHOWBIZ TONIGHT exposes the reality secrets. Plus, the demons of "The Real Housewives of Beverly Hills and Atlanta" share secrets of their coast to coast explosive smack-downs. This is SHOWBIZ TONIGHT on HLN`s news and views. Time for the show`s news ticker. These are stories making news tonight. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HAMMER: Check this out. The "Jersey Shore" meets the Ivy League. Yes, that`s "Jersey Shore`s" Vinnie at Columbia University, so far from his world of fist pumping. Vinnie was invited to give a lecture on behalf of the anti-bullying campaign. TMZ reports that Vinnie talked to a sociology class about his own experiences about being bullied. And apparently everything went great until the Q and A session. That`s when a student asked Vinnie how a hard drinking talk trashing cast member of "Jersey Shore" has a right to be a role model. I guess that seems like a fair question. But according to people in the class, Vinnie thought it was some kind of an Ivy League trick question and he just stood there dumbfounded. Guess he won`t get an honorary degree from Columbia any time soon. Here`s another celebrity shocker tonight. One of country music biggest stars is forced to put his golden voice to rest. Jessica Biel`s big new dating secret. And who is Hollywood`s most overpaid star? That story tops the buzz today. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) HAMMER: Drew`s dubious honor. Forbes magazine is out with its brand new list of the most overpaid stars in Hollywood, and Drew Barrymore is number one when it comes to least bang for the buck. The magazine calculates Barrymore brings in just 40 cents for every dollar a studio spends on her. Just behind Drew on the overpaid list, Eddie Murphy, Will Ferrell, Reese Witherspoon, and Denzel Washington. Keith Urban has just revealed he`s going under the knife. Doctors have discovered a polyp on the singer`s vocal cords, which means he has to have surgery sometime this month. It is considered a minor procedure, but Urban`s rep tells us he will need an undetermined period of recuperation. Urban is still onboard for the Country Music Awards on November 9, but he is postponing other performances until the New Year. Biel`s lips are sealed on Justin. Jessica Biel just confessed some of her dating secrets but not revealing what the deal is with Justin Timberlake, who she`s been spotted with again. In a brand new interview with "Elle" magazine, Jessica says a girl doesn`t kiss and tell, but does admit her habit of dating actors. "I think actors are the people you meet, so it just kind of happens." That makes sense. Well, tonight at the bottom of the hour, it`s a special division of SHOWBIZ TONIGHT showbiz reality secrets. We reveal the secrets behind the biggest reality shows on TV. Tonight reality fight club. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You want to hit me tough guy? UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I will snap your neck. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Bring it. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No one is touching anyone in this house. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAMMER: When the reality cameras are on, the insanity ensues. SHOWBIZ TONIGHT reveals what makes seemingly normal adults act like children. Plus the cast members of "Jersey Shore" reveal that they fight because they love each other. Right. This is SHOWBIZ TONIGHT on HLN news and views. It is time for the SHOWBIZ news ticker, more stories from the SHOWBIZ TONIGHT newsroom making news tonight. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HAMMER: Now, on a special edition of "SHOWBIZ TONIGHT" showbiz reality secrets, reality fight club. Body-slamming, in your face, all out wars. When reality cameras are on, the claws come out. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You want to hit me tough guy? UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I will snap your neck. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Bring it. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No one is touching anyone in this house. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAMMER: SHOWBIZ TONIGHT goes to the force to find out why seemingly normal adults resort to schoolyard fights on reality TV. "Real Housewives of Beverly Hills" co-star Kyle Richards shares the secrets of the Beverly Hills smack down. And Tammie Burris of the "Real Housewives of Atlanta" reveals how she stays so calm surrounded by such explosive behavior. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are you friends withm" the cursing,. END Weather forecast

Return to Transcripts main page THE SITUATION ROOM Herman Cain Still GOP Frontrunner Amid Sexual Harassment Allegations; Interview with Gene Sperling; President Speaks at G-20 Summit; Israel May Plan Airstrike against Iranian Nuclear Facility; Israel May Plan Airstrike against Iranian Nuclear Facility; Jon Corzine Retains Criminal Legal Counsel; One of Herman Cain's Accusers Will Not Speak Publicly on Incident; General is Dismissed for Criticizing Afghan Government; CIA Releases Tapes Used to Brief President Reagan Aired November 4, 2011 - 17:00 ET THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED. WOLF BLITZER, HOST: To our viewers you're in THE SITUATION ROOM. Happening now, breaking news -- the lawyer for one of Herman Cain's accusers says she stands by her allegations of sexual harassment and claims he made very specific and unwanted advances. I spoke with that attorney just a little while ago. Stand by for all of new details that are coming in and the Cain campaign's reaction as well. Plus, President Obama is heading back to the United States from France. He claims progress towards solving Europe's huge debt crisis and slamming Republicans in Congress for inaction at home. And Syrian security forces respond to Friday's protests with new bloodshed. Demonstrators are calling the government's promise to end its crackdown a lie. Herman Cain back in 1999. Joel Bennett responding specifically to Cain's denials by saying where there's smoke, there's fire. Our own Brian Todd is standing outside of Joel Bennett, the attorney's office right now. It was a very dramatic moment when he walked out, Brian, where you are and he read that statement. BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It was, Wolf, very dramatic, very highly anticipated. We were waiting here for a couple hours for Mr. Bennett to come out, and he did and delivered a one-page statement on behalf of his client, who is one of Mr. Cain's accusers. A couple of very operative passages from that statement, essentially standing behind her complaint, which Mr. Bennett says was filed in 1999. The operative parts we're taking from this statement right now, quote, "She made a complaint in good faith about a series of inappropriate behaviors," plural, "and unwanted advances from the CEO." This was very strong indication that there were more than one incident involved in this. Mr. Bennett later said there may have been more than a couple, but then he came back and said he only wanted to leave it at more than one incident. And then at the end of the statement he says the client stands by the complaint she made. She's delivering a strong rebuttal to Mr. Cain. Mr. Bennett was asked a short time after that about Mr. Cain's denials and his claim she had no evidence for they are claim. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) JOEL BENNETT, ATTORNEY: Mr. Cain knows the specific incidents that were alleged. My client filed a written complaint in 1999 against him specifically and it had very specific incidents in it. And if he chooses to not remember or not acknowledge those, that's his issue. (END VIDEO CLIP) TODD: And just a short time ago we got a statement from the National Restaurant Association kind of in coordination with all of this. The statement reads in part party to that agreement." So that from the National Restaurant Association, kind of in coordination that association saying they had essentially signed off on Mr. Bennett coming out and giving this statement, Wolf. BLITZER: We just received a statement from the Herman Cain campaign. I'll read that to our viewers, Brian, as well, "We look forward to focusing our attention on the real issues impacting this country like fixing this broken economy and putting Americans back to work through our nine-nine-nine plan as well as strengthening national security." Brian, stand by for a moment. I also want to bring in our chief political analyst Gloria Borger. Is that possible right now in the current environment, Gloria, that Mr. Cain will be able to get back on message? GLORIA BORGER, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, he's certainly go to try. We have to see how this story unravels, Wolf, because as you pointed out in your conversation with the attorney, there are lots of people who know who this woman is or these women are, and it's sort of like a question of how long you can keep these women private. As the attorney said, if it happens, it happens. She'd rather remain a private individual, but you know how these stories proceed. I want to add one thing also, though, Wolf. We don't really know what the result of the internal investigation was that was done by the National Restaurant Association. When Mr. Cain spoke at the Press Club earlier this week, he said, and I quote, "that it was concluded after a thorough investigation that it had no basis." In the statement from the National Restaurant Association today, all we know is that there was an agreement that -- without any admission of liability. The statement doesn't even mention the matter of a settlement. So that is the big question that still remains out there. What happened? Was there sexual harassment? And so we don't know the answers to those questions, so Herman Cain can continue on with his campaign because we don't know the specifics of this yet and this woman has decided to remain private. BLITZER: She wants to protect her privacy. She's been married for 26 years. She works for the federal government right now and doesn't want to be in the spotlight. Listen to what Joel Bennett, the attorney representing this woman, said about that agreement, that settlement, the severance pay, listen to this, whatever it was called. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) BENNETT: A severance agreement is when someone is leaving employment and there. (END VIDEO CLIP) BLITZER: He's very specific, Gloria, on that. He made an allegation of several instances in his words of inappropriate behavior, sexual harassment. And she then and Joel Bennett was her attorney back in 1999, worked out an agreement with the National Restaurant Association in which she was paid a certain amount of money because of these allegations that she made. BORGER: Right. And so, you know, it could be go away money or it could have been that they felt that there was a real issue and that this need to be settled before it was litigated. And we have Mr. Cain's statements On the Record saying that it was concluded that it had no basis and that is clearly not what Joel Bennett is saying today. And also he added, and this is of course he represents this woman, but in terms of the other women he said "where there's smoke there's fire." I should add, though, Wolf, one thing about the Cain campaign. Since Sunday they've raised $1.6 million. In the entire last quarter they raised just over $2.5 million. So they've done very well fundraising off of this. BLITZER: Since Sunday night when "Politico" broke this story. BORGER: That's right. BLITZER: Let me play that little clip of what Joel Bennett, the attorney representing this woman, said when he was asked if there are other incidents out there. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) BENNETT: -- but the fact that there's more than one complainant is meaningful. (END VIDEO CLIP) BLITZER: We know there's at least one, maybe two other women out there who have expressed their concern that they were sexually harassed by Mr. Cain as well. So while this one woman represented by Joel Bennett decides she doesn't want to go public, we don't know what these other women might be doing. BORGER: Right. I think that's why, Wolf, when you say can Herman Cain get beyond this, what will happen to the story, honestly at this point we don't know. We just don't know. What we do know is that Herman Cain wants to talk about, as his spokesman said in the statement, nine-nine-nine, national security, and the rest of the issues. And we also know that in the polls at least right now he is not suffering within the Republican Party. BLITZER: He and Mitt Romney are the two front-runners in the national polls and several of these early state polls as well. Gloria, stand by. Herman Cain did get a brief break today from his nearly week-long fight against sexual harassment allegations. He and Mitt Romney held dueling appearances before a conservative group here in Washington. CNN's Jim Acosta watched the two Republican front-runners in action. He's joining us now. Jim, tell our viewers what happened before this conservative audience. JIM ACOSTA, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, Herman Cain may be facing allegations of sexual harassment, but you would not know it from a response he got at a big Tea Party summit here in Washington. As you mentioned, he and Mitt Romney gave speeches at this event, but the reactions were very different. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) ACOSTA: After one week in a political storm, Herman Cain came thundering back at a big Tea Party summit for the group Americans for Prosperity. Conservatives were dancing in the aisles. HERMAN CAIN, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The biggest crisis we have is a severe deficiency of leadership crisis in the White House. (APPLAUSE) ACOSTA: Cain, who once worked for Americans for Prosperity, did not hold back. He all but blew a kiss to the group's founders, the Koch brothers, libertarian billionaires who have bankrolled much of the Tea Party movement. CAIN: This may be a breaking news announcement for the media. I am the Koch brother's brother from another mother. (LAUGHTER) (APPLAUSE) CAIN: Excuse me. ACOSTA: After a week of conflicting responses to allegations of sexual harassment, Cain and his supporters are playing offense. Look no further than the latest ad from a pro-Cain political action committee. A new "Washington Post"/ABC News poll shows Cain is still a front-runner, nearly tied with Mitt Romney. What's more, 55 percent of Republicans say the harassment allegations are not a serious matter, and 70 percent say the accusations make no difference in their vote. MITT ROMNEY, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Thank you. ACOSTA: In his own speech at the same summit, Mitt Romney was less red meat in his remarks than he was in his new plan to dramatically cut spending. In his own speech at the same summit, Romney in his remarks than he was in his new plan to dramatically cut government spending. Romney would cut $500 billion per year until 2016. He would partially privatize Medicare for future seniors, allow states to run Medicaid, eliminate the president's health care law, and cut funding for foreign aid, PBS, Planned Parenthood, and Amtrak. ROMNEY: The future of Medicare should be marked by competition, by choice and by innovation rather than by bureaucracy, stagnation, and bankruptcy. ACOSTA: Romney can boast he's the one Democrats want to destroy, but it was Cain who got the rock star welcome. Jackie Wilson drove all the way from North Carolina with her new Herman Cain become in hand. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you bothered by all the stuff that came out this week is it. JACKIE WILSON, CAIN SUPPORTER: Absolutely not. No way. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What do you think about all that? WILSON: I think it's a bunch of junk. (END VIDEOTAPE) ACOSTA: A lot of the conservatives in this crowd may still love Cain but there are rumblings inside the Republican Party that some out in states look Iowa, New Hampshire, are growing weary of Cain's campaign staff. One Iowan Republican, Wolf, told me he would like to see Cain's chief of staff, Mark Block, resign. But there are signs that Cain is trying to put this matter behind him. One thing that he's doing on Monday, he's going on the late night talk so with Jimmy Kimmel. That is not the sign of a candidate who thinks he's in trouble, Wolf. BLITZER: Thanks very much, Jim Acosta, for that. We'll have more on this story coming up. Also we're getting new information revealing just how worried the Obama administration is right now about a possible Israeli strike against Iran. Stand by for that. And we'll also show you the secret CIA videos that helped Ronald Reagan prepare for some major moments in his presidency. Lots of news happening today here in THE SITUATION ROOM. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) BLITZER: Now to President Obama and the U.S. economy. He may think wrangling with word leaders over Europe's debt is a walk in the park compared to the harsh reality he faces back here in the United States. Republicans are blaming him for a sharp slowdown in hiring last month even though the overall jobless rate improved slightly, dipping to nine percent. The campaign season battle over America's economy followed the president to the G-20 summit in France. He's on his way home right now but our chief White House correspondent Jessica Yellin is still in camp. Jessica? JESSICA YELLIN, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, President Obama has said solving the Eurozone crisis was a top priority for this G-20 summit, but at the end Europe's leader seemed no closer to filling in the details of their rescue plan. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) YELLIN: President Obama's marathon 35-hour trip to the G-20 summit didn't change his stark view of the global economy. BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The recovery has been fragile. The world faces challenges that put our economic recovery at risk. YELLIN: But on the most pressing issue facing the group, resolving the euro's own crisis, he insisted -- OBAMA: Here in Cannes we have moved the ball forward. YELLIN: The U.S. isn't going to fund Europe's bailout. Instead the president and his aides offered advice, prodding the Europeans to get their house this order quickly. OBAMA: I know it isn't easy, but what is absolutely critical and what the world looks for in moments such as this is action. YELLIN: But even as he pressed Europe to right its economy, the president couldn't escape questions about troubles at home. REP. JOHN BOEHNER, (R) HOUSE SPEAKER: The House will be in order. YELLIN: With his jobs bill and deficit reduction plan stuck on Capitol Hill -- OBAMA: As soon as I get some signal from Congress that they're willing to take their responsibilities seriously, I think we can do more. YELLIN: -- and the nation's sluggish growth. Last month the U.S. added just 80,000 new jobs. Sounding like candidate Obama, the president offered this take on his stewardship of the economy. OBAMA: When I came into office, the U.S. economy had contracted by nine percent. A little over a year later, the economy was growing by four percent, and it's been growing ever since. YELLIN: From there the president attended two events that could be helpful in French President Sarkozy's own bid for reelection. He sat for a rare joint interview with Mr. Sarkozy and attended a ceremony marking the end of the NATO mission in Libya. OBAMA: Together we have stood up for our ideals around the world, and today we pay special tribute to all those who have served and given their lives, French, American and forces from our allies and partners. (END VIDEOTAPE) YELLIN: For now Europe will have to find bailout funds in its own back yard. No outside country, not even China, made a new financial commitment to help troubled economies here. Wolf? BLITZER: Jessica Yellin on the scene for us in France. The Republican Party chief says today's jobs report underscores what he calls the devastating toll of President Obama's record on whether it comes to the economy. We're joined now by one of the president's top advisors, the director of the National Economic Council, Gene Sperling. Thanks for coming in. GENE SPERLING, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL ECONOMIC COUNCIL: Thanks, Wolf. BLITZER: You know in order to really see some improvement in the unemployment, you need at least 150,000 to 200,000 jobs a month given the growth of the population. This month, October 80,000 jobs, better than losing jobs, but still not where you want to be. SPERLING: Absolutely. You know, what we've seen is that there has been steady progress. You saw numbers were revised up. So at this point in the year the United States economy, the private sector, has created about 1.5 million jobs. But we've lost jobs at the state level, at teachers' level that has hurt job growth some. But even at 1.5 million private sector jobs, that is not even close to good enough when you are digging yourself out of what is the worst recession since the Great Depression. I mean, this president inherited what we call the Great Recession, and it is a long way out. And that's why we're not satisfied one bit, and that's why this president is putting his focus on passing the American Jobs act, Wolf, because those who are opposing it and putting no alternative of their own on the table are essentially saying they're satisfied with the current pace, they're satisfied to be at nine percent or to have projections of just two percent growth next year. You have it exactly right. In order for us to get job growth at the level it needs to be to start bringing down unemployment at a quicker pace, we need to spark this economy, we need to inject demand. And that's why what is so disappointing, Wolf, is not even so much they have blocked the president's American Jobs act or refused to pass major components, but they have not even been willing to put on the table anything credible at all that would do something to give the type of significant job growth you were just talking about to help us start bringing the unemployment rate down and get Americans back to work. BLITZER: Well, they have their own proposals, the Republicans, and they sort of emulate what the U.S. Chamber of Commerce said in their reaction to today's jobs numbers as well. I'll put up on the screen. "We need to stop saddling employers with burdensome regulations and uncertainty. We need to restructure the tax code that is dragging down our economy and undermining competitiveness. We need to reform entitlement programs that are pushing the nation toward insolvency. Until we do those things, we can expect anemic growth and weak job creation." What they are saying is they don't think the government needs to do all this. They want the private sector unleashed. Do you have a problem with that? SPERLING: You know, there are many important things we need to do for the long term. This president is leading on commonsense deregulation. We just passed three free trade agreements, we passed patent reform. These things are all important. But it's time to be serious. What you just read there is what the Chamber of Commerce and many of the Republicans would have put out at any moment at any time. This is not a time to just be putting out your old, stale agendas. And even if you're for long-term issues you'd like to debate with us let's talk about them in that context. None of those thing, not one single one, has anything to do with sparking job growth, sparking demand next year. People -- top experts project that next year we're likely to grow at only two percent, that our job growth would not be enough to bring unemployment down. If the president's plan was passed, top independent forecasters project it could add up to two percent growth, Wolf. That's the difference between some have projected 1.5 percent growth and 3.5 percent growth, between 50,000, 60,000 a month and over 200,000 jobs a month. This is absolutely essential. So if people do not like the American jobs act, then put up a real plan, not a bunch of old, stale, you know, positions. Whether they have merit or don't have merit in our long term, we need to inject demand and spark this economy for just the reason you said, Wolf, because if we don't, we're going to allow more of our Americans our fellow neighbors and workers to be out of work, families to be hurting. And what's the message from those who take that position? The message is things are good enough. We don't have to take bold action. We're going to sit on the sidelines. That is absolutely the wrong position. Nobody should take that position. BLITZER: But it doesn't look like the Republicans are going to allow any of these measures to pass. They've been rejecting them one by one by one. We're almost out of time, Gene, but a quick question -- do you believe the so-called super committee, they have till November 23rd, it's not a whole lot of time, will in fact reach an agreement to cut $1.2 trillion in government spending? SPERLING: Well, I hope so, Wolf. But we all know for that to happen you need legitimate, genuine compromise. And I think people should feel very good about the fact that the Democratic leaders really led by President Obama over the summer have been willing to compromise even on very difficult entitlement savings as part of a grand compromise. But it takes two to compromise. The public wants shared sacrifice. They want to make sure if they're being asked to go without a little for our common good that those who are most fortunate are also contributing a little in terms of higher revenues. That's the grand compromise that we need. That's the sense of balance. And as long as the Republicans insist that the only way to get that $1.2 trillion is to put it on the backs of seniors, of students, of people who need health care, there's never going to get to be an agreement and it would not be one the public would support anyways. So I remain hopeful and optimistic, but we need to see some real compromise on revenues from our Republican colleagues. BLITZER: Gene Sperling is the director of the National Economic Council over at the White House. Thanks for coming in. SPERLING: Thanks, Wolf. BLITZER: Heightened U.S. concerns Israel could be on the brink of attacking Iran. There's new information just coming out of the Pentagon. We'll have a live report. And new hot water for the former governor of New Jersey, Jon Corzine, why he now has a criminal defense attorney. Stay with us. We'll explain. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) BLITZER: Now to new information we're just getting about serious U.S. concerns that Israel could be about to strike Iran' nuclear program. Let's bring in our Pentagon correspondent Barbara Starr. Barbara, what are you hearing over there? BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, look, Wolf, we go through these periods of rising public rhetoric both in Israel and Iran, but today I asked a senior U.S. military official if the U.S. military is worried that Israel might be about to strike Iran, and he said absolutely. That is not an answer you get every day covering the Pentagon. People's hair is not on fire, but what we do now know is the U.S. military, the U.S. intelligence community is definitely keeping a closer eye on things, any potential movement of troops, equipment, military gear in either Israel or Iran. There is concern Israel's rhetoric could lead to some sort of action against Iran, against their nuclear program. Nobody is saying it's about to happen but what we are seeing, Wolf, is this increased awareness, this increased vigilance and a lot of concern, because of course what the U.S. wants to happen is reliance on diplomatic and sanctions initiatives, and if can came to that, if there was military action, the U.S. wants Israel to consult the Obama administration first before it does anything. Wolf? BLITZER: We know that everyone is bracing for the International Atomic Energy Agency report that's coming out next week. You know, in the Middle East a lot of the military action is certainly contingent on geography, Barbara. So what does Israel have to worry about with a contingency of some military action against Iran's nuclear reactors? STARR: Spot on, Wolf. In the Middle East any military action is dictated by geography to a great extent. If you look at the map, it tells the whole story about what Israel would be facing, because of course if they were to go with a manned aircraft option, look at the terrain they have to cross there. They have to get across some pretty hostile territory. If they want to launch warplanes and drop bombs inside Iran, they have to be able to refuel. They have to be able to get past Iran's very effective air defenses, its radars, its anti-air missiles. Israel has some ballistic missiles, the Jerichos, that could potentially reach into Iranian targets. We saw them conduct a missile test this week of one of their missile systems. But militarily, history tells us the Israeli like that manned aircraft option. That is very risky. The bottom line for the U.S. in all of this, they don't want to see any hostilities break out. It would be a disaster for those oil shaping lanes in the Persian Gulf, and the U.S. has tens of thousands of troops in the region, mainly in Iraq. BLITZER: Barbara Starr is watching this story over at the Pentagon. We're watching it with you as well. Thank you, Barbara. Other news we're following, the former New Jersey Governor Jon Corzine might be in hot water. He's now resigned as the CEO of the now bankrupt MG Global, a brokerage firm, and he's hired a criminal defense attorney. This after $600 million in customer funds vanished. Lisa Sylvester has been reporting on the story. What's the latest, Lisa? LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, Jon Corzine, he's been very quiet since the story first broke. Today we got a first statement in which he expresses regret. Meanwhile, the investigation into what happened to the missing money continues and subpoenas are now being issued. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) SYLVESTER: Jon Corzine voluntarily stepped down as the head of MF Global, agreeing to forego any severance package. In a statement he said, quote, "I feel great sadness for what has transpired at MF Global and the impact it has had on the firm's clients, employees, and many others." It's a hard fall for Corzine, former governor of New Jersey and once the head of Goldman Sachs. Corzine has not been accused of any specific wrongdoing, but he has now hired a defense lawyer. A New York bankruptcy court ruled that the trustee overseeing the case can move forward with subpoenas to try to unravel what happened to about $600 million in missing customer funds. The federal regulator, the U.S. Commodity Futures Trading Commission, is also conducting its own investigation. Commissioner Bart Chilton calls mf global a poster child for the need for tougher regulation. BART CHILTON, CFTC COMMISSIONER: Customers funds are supposed to be segregated and protected and they're not there. And they need to do a Tom Cruise and show us the money. That's a big problem. SYLVESTER: MF Global had invested $6 billion in risky European sovereign debt. After its rapid collapse and news of the missing funds, MF Global's customers found their accounts frozen. Customer Jim Mindling is outraged. JIM MINDLING, MF GLOBAL CUSTOMER: I think they should go to jail. Basically, this is the problem with Wall Street. They trade in derivatives. MF Global was leveraging the money 40-one to buy European sovereign debt. SYLVESTER: The head of the Securities Investor Protection Corporation said he received a call about 5:00 a.m. Monday morning that MF Global was on the verge of bankruptcy. That's the agency tasked with helping investors at failed brokerage firms. Civic, as it's known, has been working to help transfer MF Global accounts it other brokerage houses. Now that the trustee has subpoena power, Stephen Harbeck says that will help shed light on the money trail. STEPHEN HARBECK, SECURITIES INVESTOR PROTECTION COMMISSION: The trustee needs to be able to take testimony to unravel why assets are missing and who is responsible for that if in fact it turns out that assets are missing. It's a powerful tool that helps him to find assets and find out why they are not where they're supposed to be, and, in fact, to retrieve them for the benefit of investors. (END VIDEOTAPE) SYLVESTER: Forensic accountants from the trustee's office are right now at MF Global offices in Chicago and New York. And witnesses are expected to cooperate. And the trustee will issue a report of its finding to federal regulators. That report will eventually be made public. Now, I should mention, wolf, there was a report today from Bloomberg News that indicated that the missing funds might have been found in an account at JP Morgan Chase. We have just received a statement, literally only about five minutes ago from the trustee's office investigating MF Global that reads in part, and I can read it here, quote, "The trustee's office has been aware of a number of accounts of JP Morgan. The investigation will attempt to gain a full accounting of the location and the nature of these assets." And I just got off the phone with the trustee's office. They're saying that there is still, still an apparent shortfall. What they have to do is they've known about these accounts at JP Morgan Chase. What they're trying to do now is to line it up to see if this money had already been accounted for and not part of this missing shortfall. That is all part of their investigation. But the bottom line, Wolf, they are saying that there is still an apparent shortfall of $600 million missing of customer money, Wolf. BLITZER: Yes, they're supposed to keep that totally segregated. We'll see what happens. All right, Lisa, thank you. The fire storm surrounding Herman Cain is growing more intense by the day. We're going to get reaction from Iowa where the first votes will be cast this primary season. Also, hundreds of thousands of Americans have been powerless and in the dark for nearly a week. What's going on? When will their ordeal be over? (COMMERCIAL BREAK) BLITZER: We're back with the breaking news this hour. The lawyer for one of Herman Cain's accusers is speaking out. I spoke with Joel Bennett a little while ago about his client's decision not to speak publicly about the sexual harassment allegations herself. Listen to this. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) BLITZER: How worried are you that her name will eventually be made public? JOEL BENNETT, LAWYER FOR CAIN'S ACCUSER: whenever. (END VIDEO CLIP) BLITZER: All right, let's see how this controversy is playing in the heartland out in Iowa where the first ballots will be cast in the Republican presidential race less than two months from now, January 3rd. Our chief national correspondent, John King, is joining us from Des Moines. John, how is it playing, the Herman Cain uproar in Iowa? JOHN KING, CNN HOST, "JOHN KING USA": It's quite fascinating, Wolf. He leads in the polls here, or at least he's tied with the former Massachusetts governor Mitt Romney, depending on which poll you look at. And when you talk to conservatives, on the surface they say they see no evidence of any damage. If you talk to them a bit more and ask a few questions, they do say he's going to have some questions to answer and needs to come out here and campaign more. A couple of interesting observations. I spoke to one candidate who would perhaps benefit the most or more than others if Mr. Cain suddenly started to drop in the polls. That's the former Pennsylvania senator Rick Santorum. He's a long shot out here. He needs evangelical voters. Cain right now leads among evangelicals. Rick Santorum told me, Wolf, remember what we've been talking about for the past five days. It's been all the Herman Cain story. He said he's had 20 town halls in Iowa and not once has a voter asked him about this controversy or raised a question about it. So to Rick Santorum that was proof it's not a huge concern of the voters now. I also will tell you this, Wolf. I sat down for a cup can of coffee a few moments ago with the governor here, Terry Branstad, the veteran Iowa governor. He knows this state very well. He says the voters care most of all about the economy. But he said Herman Cain to put this behind him is going to have to be more forthright and more detailed. So Governor Branstad, while not wanting to wade into the specifics saying he takes Mr. Cain at his word but that he is going to have to, in the governor's view, do a better job of explaining this to the voters of Iowa. BLITZER: I'm sure issue number one is certainly the economy. That's what Herman Cain would like to address. But I suspect this current issue is going to keep on coming up. I have no doubt about that. John, what else is going on? What do you have for our North American viewers at the top of the hour? KING: It's a fascinating time to be here. Five of the candidates for president here are here for a big dinner tonight. We're trying to get the pulse of this state. There's no question Cain and Romney are atop the pack now. The tradition is you have to be here, do more retail politicking. So we'll have live for us the man making the biggest move in the race, former House Speaker Newt Gingrich. He'll join us live. Plus more of that conversation with Senator Santorum and Governor Branstad. It's a great time. It's unseasonably warm, Wolf, not snowing yet. But it's a great time to be out in Iowa. It's 60 nights from tonight the first official votes in the 2012 presidential cycle. BLITZER: Yes. And Newt Gingrich, by the way, he's moving up, as you point out, in these polls. So we'll be watching at the top of the hour. John, thank you. We're also getting new information coming into THE SITUATION ROOM right now about a senior U.S. general in Afghanistan who is highly critical of the Afghan government and President Karzai. There are breaking developments unfolding. Stand by. We'll be right back. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) BLITZER: Another U.S. general in deep trouble because of comments made about what's going on in Afghanistan. Let's go back to our Pentagon correspondent Barbara Starr. What's going on here, Barbara? BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, this word just coming in from Afghanistan. Major General Peter Fuller, one of the top U.S. commanders in the effort to train Afghan forces relieved of duty, fired by the top commander general John Allen. This follows General Fuller making remarks to a reporter from "Politico" here in Washington yesterday where he certainly disparaged, there's no question about it, the Afghan government. He made remarks that Afghan leaders, including Hamid Karzai, the president, are isolated from reality. At one point he told the "Politico" reporter, quoting, "You've got to be kidding me. I'm sorry, we just gave you $11.6 billion and now you're telling me I really don't care?" General Fuller not disputing, we are told, that he made those remarks, that he was quoted accurately, now relieved of duty. After saying these sorts of things publicly, there was no way he could continue in that position, which really is a NATO and U.S. job helping train Afghan forces, $12 billion a year in taxpayer money going to try and help the Afghans. Wolf? BLITZER: All right, Barbara, thanks very much. Coming up, a never before seen look at secret CIA videos that were designed to brief President Reagan to prepare him for trips abroad. Stand by. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) BLITZER: For our North American viewers, Erin Burnett will be continuing the coverage of Herman Cain's crisis later tonight. She's also taking a closer look at the illegal weapons business in the U.S. and around the world. Erin's joining us with a little preview. Erin, what are you finding out? ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST, "ERIN BURNETT OUTFRONT": It's pretty amazing. You saw there, Victor Booth, the merchant of death, was selling weapons to people who wanted to kill Americans down in South America, Al Qaeda, the Taliban. He -- one woman spent 15 years tracking him, 15 years. She's the biggest expert in the world in terms of illegally trafficked weapons. Her name is Kathy Austin. Angelina Jolie's is going to be playing her in a movie. She's going to be our special guest. And get ready for this, Wolf. I looked into it, and it is stunning. The AK-47 is the most trafficked weapon in the world. There are about 100 million around the world. If you just compare that to the U.S. competitor weapon, the M-16, there's only 5 million to 7 million of those around the world. The AK-47 now joined by things like rocket propelled grenades and a lot of these things have now gone missing in Libya that we don't know where they are, whether falling into the hands of Al Qaeda or other terrorists that could be used against commercial aircraft. So we're going to talk about all of that. But it's amazing. And Wolf, you know, to get a new AK-47, according to the sources I've been speaking to, it's about $240. But to buy one on the black market where you can get it readily around the world, any idea what it might cost you? BLITZER: I have no idea. BURNETT: I'm going come out with a guess because it's hard to guess. It's $30, Wolf. BLITZER: Wow. BURNETT: It's $30 for a semiautomatic that can fire at a rate of 600 rounds a minute. These are everywhere. These are the tip of the iceberg when it comes to illegal weapons that are still be sold around the world and falling into the hands of terrorist groups. So we're going to be talking about that. BLITZER: We'll be watch, 7:00 p.m. eastern, " ERIN BURNETT OUTFRONT." Erin, thanks very much: BURNETT: Thanks, Wolf. BLITZER: The prime minister of Iraq Nouri al Maliki is scheduled to be here in Washington next month. Our Lisa Sylvester is monitoring that. Some of the other top stories in "THE SITUATION ROOM" right now. What's going on, Lisa? LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, the Iraqi prime minister will sit down with President Obama at the White House on December 12th according to a statement released today. The visit comes just weeks ahead of the planned U.S. troop withdrawal at the end of the month. The president announced the final withdrawal deadline last month after a plan to keep thousands of troops there longer fell through. And the Israeli military says its sailors have intercepted two aid ships headed to the Palestinian territory of Gaza. No resistance reported, but activists are calling the move illegal and vowed to continue the effort. Officials say those on board attempted to violate the security blockade in place and ignored calls to turn back. And the daily deals website Groupon in made a strong debut on Wall Street with stocks soaring 40 percent above its initial offering price and raking in $700 million for the company. It's the second largest tech IPO ever, just behind Google, which raised $1.7 billion back in 2004. And almost a week sense the freak October snowstorm slammed parts of the northeast and mid-Atlantic, hundreds of thousands of homes are still dark. Connecticut Light and Power hopes to have 99 percent of its customer restored by Sunday. More than a half dozen people have died from suspected carbon month poisoning. The region is bracing for more chilly temperatures overnight. BLITZER: Hope there's no repeat any time soon, but you never know. All right, Lisa, thank you. It turns out the CIA made secret videos for President Ronald Reagan. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Having begun operations in 1977, the Chernobyl nuclear complex is one of the largest plants in the Soviet Union and Europe. (END VIDEO CLIP) BLITZER: You're going to see for yourself the unique way the movie star turns president of the United States was briefed by the CIA. Stand by. They've just released these videos. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) BLITZER: We're getting a fascinating new glimpse into Ronald Reagan's presidency and the novel way he was briefed on national security and foreign policy. His top aides deciding that the best way to school the one-time actor was to roll the videotape. Here's our foreign affairs correspondent Jill Dougherty. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This tele-production a current assessment of the nuclear accident at Chernobyl, was produced from the directorate of intelligence. DOUGHERTY: From the CIA archives, a never before seen peak at how the intelligence community briefed President Ronald Reagan on America's cold war enemy the Soviet Union. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Soviet space program might be described as something with a dual personality. DOUGHERTY: For the former movie star president the CIA found the perfect way to get its information across. For the first time, the agency created videos on issues like the Soviet space program. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Here again, we note the Jekyll and Hyde nature of the Soviet space program. DOUGHERTY: Or the devastating accident at Chernobyl nuclear plant. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The hydrogen built up until there was an explosion which destroyed the reactor hull roof. DOUGHERTY: Then there were the travelogues. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Following the airport arrival, your motorcade will pass through the center of Moscow, a city of 8 million people that dominates the political and economic life of the Soviet Union. DOUGHERTY: Preparing President Reagan and his wife Nancy for trips broad, complete with mood music. (MUSIC) DOUGHERTY: The CIA material also includes top secret memos and intelligence briefings that Reagan read daily. But to get the real flavor of what was going on back in the USSR, the CIA videos were unique. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This propaganda network encompasses over 4,000 newspapers, a large book publishing empire, a nationwide radio and television system, and an incessant stream of public lectures. (END VIDEOTAPE) DOUGHERTY: It's pretty amazing stuff, Wolf. You know, intelligence officials who are familiar with how presidents are briefed tell CNN now they tailor briefings to the needs of individual presidents and use the latest technology, including things like interactive videos. BLITZER: Why did they decide to release the video now after all of these years? DOUGHERTY: They've been releasing a lot of video, and I think in a way it buttresses they're points because it does show that you know the wrap was the CIA didn't know the Soviet Union was going to collapse. And actually some of it shows that they did have indications that something was going to happen. BLITZER: That's going to be great material for historians down the road, I am sure. Jill, thanks very, very much. Fascinating stuff. That's it for me. Thanks very much for watching. I'm Wolf Blitzer in THE SITUATION ROOM. The news continues next on CNN. Weather forecast

- Restaurants | - Nightlife | - Shopping | - Movies | - All Anthony's Restaurant and Fish Bar Categories: Restaurants Seafood Restaurants Fish & Chips Seafood, Fish & Chips [Edit]Sea-Tac Airport 17801 International Blvd Seattle, WA 98158 (206) 431-3000 - Hours: Mon-Sun 5 am - 11:30 pm - Good for Kids: - Yes - Accepts Credit Cards: - Yes - Parking: - Garage - Attire: - Casual - Good for Groups: - Yes - Price Range: - $$ - Takes Reservations: - No - Delivery: - No - Take-out: - Yes - Waiter Service: - Yes - Outdoor Seating: - No - Wi-Fi: - Free - Good For: - Lunch, Dinner - Alcohol: - Full Bar - Noise Level: - Average - Ambience: - Casual - Has TV: - Yes - Caters: - No - Wheelchair Accessible: - Yes 161 reviews for Anthony's Restaurant and Fish Bar Review Highlights - "The pan fried oysters are consistently outstanding." In 5 reviews - "I crave the Mahi Mahi tacos and their breakfasts are so..." In 5 reviews - 161 reviews in English Review from Victor W. For an airport spot, this place is a pretty good bet (slightly overpriced but what isn't at an airport). The halibut salad is really good though not filling by itself. The shrimp cocktail had a decent amount of shrimps but nothing generous -- tasted great though. All in all, if you want sit down seafood, this is a place to go. Review from Erik M. Anthony's isn't my first choice for dining out in town but the SeaTac location is really pretty decent as airport food goes, and is arguably your best option for a proper meal there, or any major airport. The open, airy space has loads of natural light thanks to the massive wall of windows overlooking the tarmac, which also give you some decent views of the busy airport ground operations. Each time I've been in, the service was efficient without rushing you, and if anything, they erred on the side of over attention. Their signature shrimp bloody mary is just okay. The novelty of having a shrimp in your drink isn't enough to make it much better than middle of the road. The food, on the other hand, is solid and satisfying. Most recently, I had the blackened salmon sandwich, which came with a very generous fillet and just the right amount of spice. The fries were hot and fresh, if a bit nondescript, although how much can you really expect from food service fries? I've never had to wait more than about five minutes for a table, but I can see where the wait could be a bit long around lunch or dinner - I've seen pretty substantial crowds hanging around the host podium in passing a few times. It will likely cost a bit more than some of the other options at SeaTac, but in my experience you'll get what you pay for. Review from Timothy G. - 0 friends - 20 reviews Oakland, CA The place was full. but I waited only five minutes for a table in the bar area. Service was good, especially for how packed the place was. You could see everyone really hustling. I couldn't figure out what Northwestern wine I wanted to try. So my server offered me a sample of three -no charge. Dinner was better than most. Not over the top but good for four stars. I had the local mussels and the cioppino. Mussels cooked just right and big serving. Cioppino is not same as San Francisco - it had salmon and only a little white fish. Clams and mussles but no crab. Sauce was very good. I'd definitely order it again (but SF style is still my favorite ) Have to say - if you have a two hour layover, this is one of the best places to be stuck at. Especially at dinner time. Review from Mike S. THE TOTAL AIRPORT FOOD EXPERIENCE (it's shit) Review from Travis J. Only come here if you have delay or a long layover... The wait staff doesn't seem to care that people have flights to catch...they don't even ask when your flight is. The food is good, hostes are nice but the wait service can be at times a little rude. Review from Noll K. I'm going 4 stars, based on my breakfast - like others have said, this is better-than-good for an airport. If you moved this place outside the airport... well you wouldn't be at the airport! The prawn bloody mary is the shizzle, so be sure to try one (I think I'll have another...) Review from Clarissa S. - 12 friends - 29 reviews Irvine, CA Firesteed Cellars Pinot Noir, Clam chowder soup was tasty, Barbecued Garlic Prawns were just eh. The restaurant was busy on a Friday at 5pm so I was seated next to the open kitchen which was great but unfortunately also put me next to the back kitchen where they sort your dirty dishes and uneaten food when you're done with your plate. It was nice to see the the wait staff and the chefs and management were all nice and friendly to each other. Decent meal with airport pricing. Review from bruce b. Great seafood with excellent view of runways. Very friendly staff found here. Excellent chowder and sourdough bread. 2 Previous Reviews: Show all » Best airport restaurant in U S. great menu of Fresh fish with relaxing atmosphere in central… Read more » Review from Gabrielle L. - 12 friends - 82 reviews San Francisco, CA My friend flies through SeaTac when she visits friends in Alaska, and she said I HAD to try the bloody Mary at the airport while I was there. Why? Because it came with a shrimp in it. Once she said that, it was all I could think about. Usually I don't trust seafood in airports, so I was a little skeptical, but as soon as I saw the open restaurant next to the airports breathtaking full-window wall, I decided to give it a try. It was spicy but I'm a wuss, and the waitress was nice enough to bring me extra tomato juice to cut down the spice. The service was pretty terrible (especially since my mouth was on fire and nobody was coming by to refill our waters), but the food was tasty and I definitelyy would go back the next time I'm in town. :-) Review from Jim F. Was really looking forward to dining here. One of the better airport restaurants I've come across. My plane landed at 9:30, and I headed straight to Anthony's. Was told "only drinks, but we can only serve chowder.". I bought some sushi, then came right back 9:45 PM). Told, " sorry - we just called last call". NOT cool, Anthony's. Actually, felt very rudely treated. So I can only give you my impressions of their service. I last ate their about 2 years ago and it was good then.... Review from Morgan R. Probably the best food available inside security at SeaTac Airport. They have both take-out and sit-down service. While this isn't as good as Chinook's or other Anthony's restaurants, the service is quick, the ingredients good, and it's real fish and real vegetables. One of the things I like about Chinooks in Magnolia is that they don't overcook their fish. Sadly, that's not true here, and I'm convinced it's because of the clientele - salmon should still be slightly translucent in the interior when done perfectly, but this was a solid opaque pink -- I assume that out-of-towners who are in the airport aren't used to fish done right, and insist on having it overcooked. So if you like it the way most of us in Seattle do, be sure to tell them you want it "rare". That said, if after clearing TSA security you have time to eat a real meal, this is the best place in the airport. Review from Ryan G. Great beer and real pacific northwest seafood -- magic! Mahi Mahi tacos = bomb diggity BBQ prawns = delectable Went here at Seatac before a flight, it was dinner time and the place was packed, we were able to find seating at the bar and the service was quick and friendly. I also recommend the red amber ale Review from Mike A. You know how a girl can be office-hot? Like, in the real world, she's nothing that special but when inside the confines of your 9-to-5, she looks pretty bangin'? This place is airport-hot, so for that it gets four stars. If it was in the real world, I'd give it a three. But really, when you're at an airport, your expectations for good food get a lot lower. This is where Anthony's picks up the slack. The good - bloody mary. Well done! Comes with a prawn. Nice. Also, the clam chowder is very tasty. The weird - shrimp cocktail. They neglected to mention these are bay shrimp. So tiny! Not for sharing. The nice - they remade my meal when it was delivered with gluten ingredients that weren't described in the menu. If you've got a decent layover or get to the airport too early like we did, stop here for some lunch or dinner. If you don't have a lot of time ... why are you reading this review? Get on the plane already! Review from Carly C. Airport food- Blegh. And it's expensive- what gives?! At least if you're gonna spend money and need to waste time you can go to Anthony's. Yes, it is expensive. But the taco/fish bar isn't as bad and it's tasty. I just enjoyed a huge smoked salmon bagel with cream cheese, red onion and capers for $6.99. Best breakfast I have had at an airport! Review from Arc P. I have been to Sea-Tac so many times at this point I have a clear, predictable routine. It's so obvious that I am sure in about 20 years the technology of the airport (perhaps complete with accosting marketing robots) will be able to determine that I am arriving and the instant I step off the plane they will start selling me deals to the stores they know I will go to. Anthony's is part of that routine. I enjoy their fish, particularly their salmon, and the view outside the large window of Sea-Tac adds the perfect atmosphere to the meal. If you are real lucky on a clear day you can see out all the way to Olympic mountains. It really is an oasis in the chaos that is air travel. Review from Samsudin K. Santa Clara, CA We wanted to have dinner with my co-workers before our flight back to San Jose but was disappointed with the service. It was 5.30 pm and we wanted table for 2 and they told us that is 30 minutes wait !!! The place was not even full capacity and they did not verify the table for us. We asked for the bar counter seats and did not seem helpful to tell us that we can seat ourselves. I don't I want to spend my money dining at the restaurant when the service is cold and not welcoming. After waiting for 8-10 minutes we left and looks elsewhere to have dinner. Review from Peter P. I've never been to the "real" Anthony's, but if it's anything like the airport version, I can't wait to go. Located in the Central Terminal food court (which, I must say, is the nicest airport food court I have ever seen) with several other great options, Anthony's has a great view. I sat at the bar, but there is also ample seating in the dining area (with table service). Clam chowder is amazing (and I'm a chowder connoisseur). Served in a bread bowl with a side of caesar salad, it was the perfect meal before getting on a 4-hour flight. An added bonus is the nice selection of local microbrews on tap. Review from rosquete b. - 7 friends - 367 reviews Belmont, CA Sea-Tac Airport Had a layover & didn't want to wait for airplane food. Went to the take-out portion of Anthony's; it has a restaurant section also. Had a wonderful $9.99 combo consisting of a delish salmon taco, a creamy clam chowder, chips, & soft drink. Friendly service. Good value. Tables to sit at Review from Anthony N. Playa del Rey, CA ***The fish was not too bad at this airport sit-down restaurant, but it was quite overpriced for what it was*** We stopped at Anthony's Restaurant (in the Seattle airport) before heading back to Los Angeles. Anthony's offers both sit-down and to-go options (there was a little bit of a wait to be seated). We were seated next to the runway, which was a nice touch given the huge windows that provided a view of the airplanes. The menu had a mix of casual options including sandwiches and fish and chips as well as entrees. I had the salmon, which was topped with a cream sauce and came with a side of rice pilaf and vegetables. The salmon was okay. It was moist and flaky; it had a decent flavor. The sauce was a standard cream sauce. The sides were kind of family chain restaurant sides. They were bland and boring (and it seemed not much care went into making them). The vegetables were steamed and had no seasoning. Prices were high. Airport restaurants tend to be pricey and since this was a sit-down spot, prices were way too high for the average quality. Service was not too bad. The food came out fairly quickly, but there was not enough staff and it was very hard getting our server's attention. Anthony's might be an okay option if you stick to their cheaper selections or if you get it to-go (entrees are too pricey and you should consider skipping). Eating the food there could be a gamble because of the little bit of a wait and the lack of enough staff to really get customers in and out quickly. This restaurant is located within the terminal so it is only available to airport travelers. I am not sure what the parking situation is. Review from Nick S. Not a "real" Anthony's... Buyer beware! I have had numerous meals here and while some have been ok, the standards are rarely kept up. Cold side dishes, overcooked veg, improperly cooked fish... The only thing that is consistent is the inconsistency. This place will do in a pinch when you need fish & chips or a piece of salmon, but don't expect it to by like a real Anthony's. Review from Kristen I. - 0 friends - 2 reviews Pullman, WA Wonderful double "prawn" bloody Mary. Review from Tiffany C. Los Altos, CA Oh Seattle. My first meal in this great food city and a definitely represented well. I got the clam chowder (~$4), which was wonderful. Although it was airport food, it was probably better than some of the clam chowder that I've had at restaurants in california. I also got the mahi mahi fish taco (~$8 for one). Although it was on the larger side, I still felt that it was somewhat overpriced for a taco. Then again it's airport food. Had a lemonade to accompany my meal, which was great. Nicely sweetened (I'm guessing with honey?). Probably one of the top airport foods I've ever had! Review from Brian W. Scary... The place is too busy and hence the wait staff doesn't really care. They were all wearing dirty aprons too--I assume because they were working all day. Typical overpriced/underwhelming airport drinks. If you're a tourist, or just heading through town, don't think that this Anthony's is like any of the others--the other locations are usually OK. Although as a person who lives here, I think I would put any Anthony's on the bottom of the list of places I would take out-of-town guests. Review from Paolina T. Portland, OR If you are getting fish and chips, got to Ivar's. Less expensive and tastes better. We ordered a side of steam broccoli and it was slathered in butter. The drinks, inexpensive for airport drinks and are good. Review from Ryan C. This place is great. Compared to most airport food, Anthony's is much better. They have amazing food and drinks, and great service. I have been here quite a few times in the past few years and is always my go to spot when transiting the Seattle airport. I have tried many different items and nothing is bad. The Clam chowder is great. If you go here you won't be disappointed. The price is a little high, but worth it for the quality of food that you are getting. Review from Carl P. Just had dinner @ Anthony's before our flight to AZ. Just had bread bowls and salad but they were both well don't and tasted great! The Callimari app was also excilent. I will eat here before every flight. Please keep in mind I'm giving this 5 starts because I'm comparing it to 'airport food' Review from Daren D. I came on by here late after work one night and sat myself at the bar. Got the cheeseburger with fries and the mojito. Food was good and the mojito was nice; it kind of reminded me of the Ragin Sagin at St Dames (maybe that was a mojito, too, but was named different?). I dunno. Noel, the bartender, was good and efficient. I had the opportunity to chat with a lovely lady who was waiting for her Chicago flight after having (according to her) already flown 4 times that day. Review from Richie A. Historically Anthony's restaurants are always a good place to consume seafood items. This is in the airport. Given that airport food - busy - hectic - quick turn around expectations . . . the quality tends to drop off but HUGE amounts. The clam chowder bowl is generally a nice lunch item but even here that seemed to get less love than what you will get from a NON Airport based Anthony's. Now compare it to airport food - yes, I stop here almost everytime I have the time to do so. But do not expect the normally good quality seafood Anthony's delivers. BTW: I gave them a bonus star just for the bloody marry, good item for travel mode Review from Kent H. airport food, not much else to say. i opted for the wild alaskan salmon tacos. the chips seemed a bit stale, so i could have done without it. the mayo sauce was a bit rich so i'm glad i requested that to be on the side. the salsa was lacking so I would have preferred to have more of the salsa. Review from reyz a. Halibut, cod or salmon fish 'n chips? Salmon summer special of clam chowder, salmon tacos and drinks for about $8? I'll go for the $8.99 Salmon Fish n Chips with your award winning batter please. 10 minutes later...you get three heavily battered salmon with some chips. Although I like the grease once in a while, three sticks of salmon battered then fried into its tender crispiness before the second leg of my flight may not have been a good idea. Comfort food that will definitely lull me to sleep on the next plane. I'm not sure it was worth the wait in this packed lunch time Seatac crowd. Look there's no lineup at Ivars... maybe I should have gone there and saved some time.... Verdict: The food was good, I feel bloated, I got to sit and yelp a bit. I wonder if TSA would allow me to step out and do a quick 2 miler around concourse C before I fall asleep. Too late. ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ Review from Seattle F. - 1 friend - 74 reviews Seattle, WA This place combines all of the worst elements of Anthony's with HMS. This is an Anthony's but it is run by a multi-national airport food company. The food is nothing great. Anthony's does serve fresh seafood, but the food itself is boeig and uninspired and sometimes just bad. For some reason they think something sweet like mango should go on a fish taco. There's no dish in the restaurant that is inventive in any way. They seem to think that cooking something basic is good enough. When I get better,fancier food at my local Seattle pub then there's a problem. Want a to go order? Hope you're not in a hurry and I hope you're over 21. You have to go wait in the bar to make an order. This, if you're pressed for time it could take 10 minutes to just order it. Thy should ring up to go orders up front. The service also leaves something to be desired. I was ordering fish and chips. It comes with chips and also slaw. Not being a slaw fan, I asked for regular veg instead. I could only substitute out the fries. im not really down with fanatical kitchen rules and it wasn't like I was asking for king crab instead. Even the physical setup of the place is wrong. There's a part of their bar which has an area for the servers and one with seats for guests. Guess where they put their tv's. You guessed it. In from of the server station. I hope you like neck pain with you beer and fish. I'd really like to love this place and have gone there many times, but the poor service and mediocre food are just not worth it. HMS might be great for running a Hudson News but not so much when it comes to restaurants. 1 Previous Review: Show all » Boring and poorly executed restaurant The good: An actual restaurant in Seatac The bad: Poorly managed … Read more » Review from John O. This review is for the take-out next door to Anthony's restaurant (still Anthony's, but at a much less marked up price). You can get a small cup of clam chowder, plus fish and chips and a drink for $8-9. I think it's the best deal in the Seattle Airport. Great value. Food comes out quite quickly, too. Take your chowder, fish and fries, and coke, and go sit in front of one of the best viewing airport windows I have ever been. Enjoy. P.S. Free wi-fi.........it's a great way to kill an hour while waiting for your departure. Review from John L. Good beer selection, especially for an airport restaurant. Pineapple salsa in the halibut tacos was really good. Prices are a little high though (especially considering the seafood should all be relatively local). Review from George O. Had their signature peach lemonade but it had no peach flavor. Had their clam chowder and it had good flavor but being so thick, it was paste like. For main course the halibut tacos were well flavored with their mango kiwi slaw and well cooked halibut. Too bad one taco had a small piece of fish and the other was only acceptable in size. The taco was way too thick and doughy while the chips and salsa, they gave the smallest amount of salsa possible for around 25 pieces of chips. Overall an ok place at best. Price was okay. Review from Rui W. The first time I've been here is about 4 years ago on a business trip. I grabbed dinner before taking the red eye back to Boston. It was pretty good experience and the food was fairly tasty. The recent visit is after our 7 days Alaska cruise and have a few hours to kill at the airport. I told my wife about this place before so we came here to lunch. We ordered 3 types of oysters, Barring point, Kumamoto, and Penn Cove, which we like the Kumamoto the best, juicy and little sweet. I ordered Cajun Rockfish, and wife ordered Seafood Fettucini. The fettucini is okay, but the Cajun Rockfish is way to plain. Where did the Cajun spice go??? Maybe next time I need to eat at SEA-TAC, I'll try something different. Review from Jason F. If you're flying out of Seatac Airport and looking for a sit down place, this is one of your few choices. I'm not sure if it's true, but I feel like most of the food in this place is out of the fryer? Anyways, they do a good job of get you fed quickly and conveniently so that you can consider on with your travels. Review from Russell G. - 47 friends - 10 reviews Pasadena, CA While everyone shuffles thru the airport terminal's Starbucks or Wendy's line for breakfast, tote your baggage to Anthony's for some french toast with orange butter (which totally makes the meal). They'll likely hide you in back under a huge window with a panoramic view of the Horizon Air baggage area and a runway beyond. Service has been top-notch both times I've been here, and both times they quickly & happily fixed a kitchen error (once they didn't include enough bacon, and once they forgot the orange butter for the french toast). Thank you to servers Johnathan and Manny, respectively, who both tried to get me to drink too much coffee by coming by so often to "warm it up"! This now may be a required visit whenever I get to fly thru SEA! Review from Michelle D. Seattle, WA I always try and make time to eat here before I fly out. It's far better than anything you can bring on board and it's nice to sit near the windows and enjoy the fish while watching the planes take off as you contemplate the trip you are about to undertake. Anthony's Halibut and Chips is superior to Ivar's at the airport. Lighter breading, fresher, bigger pieces, light and tasty. It's just better. I would never get Cod or Salmon fish and chips, so I can't speak to those, but for Halibut - this is your place. The fries are adequate, but when you dip them in the amazing tartar and add a little malt vinegar they become well worth the calories. My other real favorite are the Rockfish Tacos. Grilled while you wait, served with tasty tortilla chips and a pretty good salsa. Very nice, worth waiting a few minutes for and a lighter option than fish and chips. Oh, and it's always very clean and the staff is very friendly at this place. You really can't beat it for a pre-flight meal. Review from Jonas A. Grabbed a good grilled tuna before heading out. Good service and good food! Review from jeff l. Really a good value for an airport. They have salmon fish and chips here for 7.25. True cod for 7.95 Halibut for 14.95 I have had the halibut here before and it is good but the true cod is a better deal. Three pieces of fish that are cooked just right and thin fries with the standard tartar sauce. Good deal! One of the best deals and quality you can get at any airport.

- Restaurants | - Nightlife | - Shopping | - Movies | - All Anthony's Restaurant & Lounge Categories: Restaurants Italian Nightlife Bars Lounges Italian, Lounges [Edit]701 Grand Blvd Kansas City, MO 64106 Neighborhoods: Central Business District, Greater Downtown (816) 221-4088 - Hours: Mon-Thu 11 am - 10 pm Fri-Sat 11 am - 11 pm Sun 12 pm - 8 pm - Takes Reservations: - Yes - Accepts Credit Cards: - Yes - Parking: - Private Lot - Attire: - Casual - Good for Groups: - Yes - Good for Kids: - Yes - Price Range: - $$ - Delivery: - No - Take-out: - Yes - Waiter Service: - Yes - Outdoor Seating: - No - Wi-Fi: - No - Good For: - Dinner - Music: - Background - Best Nights: - Fri, Sun, Sat - Happy Hour: - No - Alcohol: - Full Bar - Smoking: - Outdoor Area/ Patio Only - Coat Check: - No - Noise Level: - Average - Good For Dancing: - No - Ambience: - Casual - Has TV: - Yes - Wheelchair Accessible: - Yes 34 reviews for Anthony's Restaurant & Lounge Review Highlights - "It's a very old-school Italian family kind of place." In 7 reviews - "...serves up a fried chicken special (three GIANT pieces) with..." In 2 reviews - "We always get the veal and chicken; both are delicious." In 2 reviews 34 reviews in English Review from Reed N. Man the reviews are hit and miss for this place. First... we had wonderful service and server. He was all over it without being over the top. The salad was iceberg, romaine, and spinach. The dressing was said to be homemade. I actually like it okay. The croutons seems to be homemade as well. We had a shrimp linguini alfredo special that had the shrimp bumped up a notch. I think they added some shrimp stock to the white sauce... just a touch. It was AWESOME. You better like shrimp, though! lol The eggplant parm order was due to Joi's review. You have to go with a NYC Italian on these matters, trust me. I like the sweetness of the red sauce because there was an underlying meatiness to it. It reminded me of my aunt Bee's meatball marinara... so it was familiar and warming to me. I agree with Joi, though... more brownness on the cheese please... and where is my tin boat a.k.a. serving dish that will brand your fingers if you touch it? lol The eggplant under the sauce and cheese was tasty breaded goodness. Anthony's is a throwback place. I like that. Elegant yet casual. Old school. But still decent food. I mean... do you really want to eat at Olive Garden? Really?? : ) Review from Elaine F. Four of us went to Anthony's on 5/4/2012. I have been wanting to go for a very long time because Italian food is my favorite. It was a very disappointing experience. The service was average at best-I could deal with that if the food had been better. When I have to ask for more ice tea, coffee, etc. it makes me very cranky. It also took a long time for the food to arrive considering we came early and there was not a big crowd. The salad was on a tiny plate, so when you try to take a bite a bunch goes onto the table. The salad was a C at best. I had pasta with meatballs. When it came I was astounded that the sauce was orange. I have never seen anything like that-it must have had cream in it. The taste was just fair. Three out of four of us were disappointed. The chicken marsala was rated 3 on a scale of 10 by one of my friends. To top it off the place was not clean. That is always a turn off in a restaurant. Give me Cascone's any day. Review from Troy D. I want to like Anthony's. I really do. I really really really do. I just can't like it as much as I want to. Let's start with the atmosphere -- if you wanted to go to "standard Italian restaurant", this is it. Pink, dimly light place with old school standards playing and a cigarette machine (the kind with knobs) in the front. The service during my last visit was awesome; we had a bunch of different challenges for the gal (Groupon + split checks + requests with our meals), and she handled them phenomenally -- and even relayed a story about an inappropriate Halloween costume. So why not give this place 5 stars? The food is... adequate, at best. Every time I go, I think there's something good there I can try, and every time, I'm a little disappointed. The pasta tends to be a little peppery, and on my last visit, the chicken in my entree had an "off" flavor. That's not something you want to say about chicken. This place is the newest on my list of "places I'd go with a discount, but probably not anytime else." 3 stars on Yelp! equals "A-OK", and that's about what this place gets. Review from Stephen H. Overland Park, KS I feel really conflicted writing this review. The evening had started so promisingly and ended so oddly. All I can do is restate the facts of the case to you. All Yelpers know that part of our decision-making process in trying a new place is reading reviews. However, Anthony's had been on my "list" for a long time simply because of its history. Any restaurant that has been around for 37 years is a place I want to go to. I didn't need to read the reviews when almost anyone I asked about Anthony's said, "Don't bother - it's lost its mojo" So, I went in "blind" not having read the Yelps before going. I arrived to a happening joint. It was later in the evening on a Friday, and the crowd at the bar were having a great time and the restaurant was packed. They noted my reservation for 9:15, which I had made on OpenTable. I'll come back to this at the end. We were seated in a booth and looked at a great menu. Soft, warm bread arrived with butter. Having forgotten to eat for most of the day I dug in and wasted no time in ordering an appetizer of eggplant parm and some garlic bread. I also got a bottle of Italian Pinot Noir. Our server was great, things were going well. And then our entrees arrived. It was horrifying. My friend and I looked down to pasta that was just slopped on a plate and covered in red sauce. I could hear Bob Garniere from "Band of Brothers" looking down and saying, "this is an Insult to Italians everywhere. This looks like noodles with ketchup." Truth is, we never got to taste the presented-like-a-cafeteria dishes...because...THEY WEREN'T OUR DISHES. They belonged to the table next to us. Our waitress came back with our dishes which were....just as disappointingly presented. As we drove home I asked her if I was being unfair. "No," she said. "Didn't you say that that was perhaps the best cannoli you've had south of the River?" Indeed I had. I was musing on the bad entree for so long that I had forgotten that the made-in-house filling and the made-around-the-corner shells combined to be a beautiful symphony of deliciousness. I would tie the cannoli here with Cucina di Mamma in Brookside for best south of the River. Wonderful and perfect. Okay. I think that the reason I'm willing to come back to Anthony's at some point in the future is to give it one more shot. While I find it hugely unlikely that a kitchen that has so little pride it is willing to send shit out like what landed on our table...twice...as entrees...will actually fire on all cylinders at another given random time - a dear friend of mine - an Italian - loves this place and I'm willing to come back with her and her husband sometime. But I eat out a lot and my suspicion is this: no passion. They are coasting on a momentum built over 4 decades. That's why I had such an uneven, inconsistent experience. That's why the Yelp reviews are ALL over the place. When people care and there is passion - you see consistency. Period. PS If you want to hook up with a guido/guidette, this is the place to do it. I'm pretty sure that this is an alumni-approved hangout of St. Pius X HS. PPS There is a traditional Sicilian salad of tomato, onion, and garlic. Be prepared for it to have a lot of onion. And don't think you're going to make out with anyone afterwards, but you can probably kill any vampires within a 5 foot radius. PPPS They "cancelled" my OpenTable reservation right after I showed up for it. I didn't find out until I got home. Frequent diner secret: they pay $1 for each person on the reservation so "cancelling" my reservation after I showed up saved them $2, but cost me 100 points which I like to earn. NOT classy. With my experience as bad as it was overall, I'm not likely to believe it was an "accident." Listed in: No soy Americano...just… Review from Ashley Q. Amazing is the only word to describe this place! A friend and I found it by accident and walked in to a smile, quick and friendly service and great food. Oh, and if you like tiramisu at all, they will spoil you with it! Best I've ever had and trust me I've had plenty! My friend had their cake and said it was just like what his grandmother used to make (she's Italian!). The menu is authentic and diverse so no matter what your style and taste you're bound to find something amazing!! Review from Lung T. Finally a good linguini with clams!!!! Best in Kansas city...atmosphere is old school Italian with excellent service....calamari is a little crunchy but good...marinara sauce is sweet and tasty!, the pork appetizer is awesome!! Review from Beth B. I came here for a work function and we were a large party in the back room. It took a while for us to get served once we sat down. They provided salads that looked kind of like the prebagged Dole salads, but the Italian dressing was really good. For the main course, we didn't get to order off the menu, but were provided with bowls of spaghetti with meat sauce and fettucini alfredo with chicken, served family style. The spaghetti sauce was sweet with a little kick afterwards. Not my favorite sauce. The fettucini alfredo was good and the sauce had a nice flavor and was not too thick. This is definitely an old school Italian-American restaurant. I would not make a trip downtown to eat here, but if I wanted Italian when I was already downtown, I might go here again. Review from Amy E. I thought we were going to like this place when we first walked in. It's an old-school-looking Italian-American restaurant of a certain kind. The way they appeared (or so I would imagine) in the 1950's. Dark, no windows, low ceiling, lots of red, with "Italian" prints on the wall. A bar along one wall looks like something out of Goodfellas. Great, I thought, we are in for some authentic Italian-American food. Unfortunately, it didn't turn out that way. I ordered the Chicken Mogu, while sweetie ordered the Chicken Spedini. Bread came out first. The bread was warm (very good!), but the butter was ice cold, and thus not spreadable in the least (not so good). Then the salads arrived. Typical, forgettable salads. A little heap of lettuce with one grape tomato and a few croutons. Eh. But I wasn't expecting much of the bread or salads. I was waiting in happy expectation for the meals. The Chicken Mogu. Not good. At all. It consisted of two pieces of breast meat that had been pounded to less than 1/4" thickness, and then overcooked to dry toughness. As for the sauce ladled over the top, it was embarrassing. I can only describe it this way. You know the store brand "Italian" dressing that can be found at any grocery? The kind that is clear with a yellowish cast, with little bits of "garlic" and other, unidentifiable specks of stuff suspended in it? The kind that is slightly and weirdly gelatinous? That is like what was poured (and at room temperature) over the chicken. In fact, I don't think it is similar to the Mogu sauce. I think that is exactly what the Mogu sauce was. Cheap, ersatz, prefab, weird dressing. Bleck. As for the Chicken Spedini, the chicken itself was cooked well. Pieces of white meat had been deep-fried, and were crisp on the outside and juicy within. The sauce, however, that glazed the plate beneath the chicken pieces, was as prefab and ersatz as the Mogu sauce. Not appetizing in the least. Each meal came with a side of spaghetti with red sauce. The spaghetti was over-cooked and nearly room temperature, while the red sauce had no flavor whatsoever. I've had better sauce out of a jar. The prices were high, I thought, for the lunches served (even if they had been decent). About $10 for the Chicken Mogu, and about $12 for the Chicken Spedinni. There was a fair amount of food, overall, I suppose, but nothing that we would want to eat again. Review from Charley B. Kansas City, KS Anthony's is one of my favorite restaurants because of its atmosphere. Entering the restaurant is like walking back in time to a classic era, one full of sophistication, intrigue and even a little danger, like Kansas City of yesteryear. The dining room and lounge are dimly lit to provide a more intimate atmosphere at your table (and to possibly make one guess who you are seated with.) Old lounge songs are piped in to give the room a jovial, yet laid back feel. The food is 100% Italian. I started off with the fried mozarella, which lasted about five minutes. I had a Pollo au Provolone for my dinner, which was cooked so it was nice and crispy on the outside and tender on the inside. I will say, service at times can be a little spotty and the food can take its time coming out of the kitchen. Tonight though everything was perfect. My server was quick and attentive and my entree was straight out of the oven. If you're going to be around downtown Kansas City and want a dining experience with a little nostalgia, this is the place for you. Review from Zach W. I have nothing bad to say about this place, the food is amazing and the service is pretty swell. I try and eat here at least once a month to get my Italian fix. I would recommend it to anyone. Review from Renee M. Had Valentine's Day dinner at Anthony's last night. My first time there, but my boyfriend is a frequenter, I suppose. Love the place. Not real impressive from the outside, but inside it's kind of like what you would see in an old gangster movie. Old Italy. Dark, dimly lit, Italian-esque paintings. It's eclectic. We had the option of ordering from the regular menu, or the special V-Day menu, and opted to do our own thing. Bread came out nice and warm and soft. It's nothing to brag about, but just good. Our waitress made a great wine recommendation that we both enjoyed. House salads were good. We ordered the traditional lasagna and the tortellini de carlo (cheese tortellini with alfredo, ham, mushrooms, peas). Kind of sharing both plates. They were both delicious. I will say, I like my red sauce a bit sweet, but not everyone does. The sauce on the lasagna was quite sweet, but we liked it. Too stuffed to try any dessert, but maybe next time. Service was excellent, atmosphere was cozy, plenty of Sinatra coming out of the speakers. We enjoyed ourselves and had a great night, and will definitely be going back. Review from Nancy K. Just the thought of Anthony's makes me smile. A surprise date a few years before we were married brought this indescribable restaurant into our lives. Now, let me try to describe it. :) Sadly, for over a year, they have not had the lounge singer, who was, in a few words, distinctly Italian. I miss him. As you can recall, last Saturday, it was hot! So a groupon and a need for hot comfort food apparently led us to hang in the bar. Luckily, the air conditioning was also broken that evening, or as we were told, it was "Re-setting." That poor bartender, I couldn't believe there was much left of him. The people watching or 'neighborhood channel' that evening was spectacular, with us making up stories of what most likely these "businessmen" do for a living. Oh! and the LADIES! They could film "The Real Italian Housewives of Kansas City," here. It was amazing and their was a Cougar Convention in the backroom. The food is so comforting. It is totally things we could make at home but what would be the fun of that? I had the cheese ravioli with ham, peas and mushrooms and J had the chicken scallopini. Everything was just fine but the bread always makes me laugh. It is literally just that loaf of Roma you can find at the grocery store. The husb, loves it though so we always get it. As far as my dish goes, who can go wrong with those three things? It's comforty...mmmmmmm. And the Scallopini is always a good choice, if you like their sauce. Both entree's were huge! I encourage everyone who lives in this city to go at least once. It somehow feels immediately like what old Kansas City must have been. Review from Angie S. A truly hidden jem! I felt as though I turned Italian just walking through the door. The staff informed us that some of them have been there over 20 years. Don't judge a book by it's cover, because this book has a lot to offer. There isn't much seating, so call in advance or go during the week days if you want to make sure your wait time wont be long. We asked the waiter on what he suggested, and he was very spot on with what we liked. I suggest an app the share, and even though it is tempting - don't fill up on the bread! A great restaurant to experience, even if it is one time. Review from Andrew H. I thought this place was alright. Here's why... Pros: 1) Our waiter was friendly and apologetic when our appetizers took a while to get cooked. He also was good about suggesting entrees. 2)The meal was pretty good in general. The spumoni was especially good with the rum sauce. Cons: 1) My pasta was slightly overcooked but not disgustingly. 2) The ambience was a little much for my tastes. The tint of red light they used to fill the place just kind of annoyed me (but to each his own...). Final Thoughts: My family enjoyed this place a bit more than me, so I will probably be back. Hopefully they blow me away next time! Review from Joi B. Whaaaat? I could have sworn I was in Brooklyn or Queens on Saturday night. Reality check: nope. Still in Downtown KCMO. Anthony's is astonishing in its late 70s Italian (American) restaurant (& lounge!) authenticity. In fact, I was so hit with nostalgia at the very sight of this place that I was determined to love whatever they put in front of me. It is identical in decor and vibe to dozens of restaurants I used to go when I was growing up. I practically teared up, I kid you not. Let's see... -"porcelain" busts-check -over the top mural of venice-check -carpeting throughout the bar and lounge-check -lots o' Leonardo -check -red vinyl restaurant chairs-check -older clientele and families-check Ambiance= 5 stars (looooove the pink overhead lights!) Food= 3 stars...I'd be a lot tougher on it if I were in New York. For starters, Anthony's sauce is very sweet and this is a personal taste thing, but I cannot stand sugar in any kind of tomato sauce. I ordered the eggplant parm. The eggplant was perfect. The cheese needs to be well done though! It came with a curious side of tiny shells that look like they'd be better suited to yellow cheese sauce on them instead. Marcaroni &...marinara? The side kind of needs to be linguine or spaghetti. Small quibbles, as the portion is large enough that you hardly need a side of anything. Don't mind me, Anthony's. I'm just intent on reliving an experience, that's all. You've got the ambiance down pat, which is really the main thing for me! Note: I am still on the hunt for any place in KC that does eggplant parm proper- in the shallow metal tin. It's just the way it has to be! But until I find such a place, I will return to Anthony's Restaurant & Lounge and leave humming to myself, "thanks for the memories..." Listed in: My Favorite Reviews, Italian Food US, Italian Food, KC Metro Review from albert c. You ever heard of lasagna with Kool-Aid meat sauce before?! Me neither! I'm only visiting Missouri and dont know if this how Italian is done here, but LULA MAY BABY BOY this was bbleechh! So I went of the recommendation of the hostess, who was friendly, to get the lasagna. Then went off the recommendation of the waiter to get the meat sauce, sausage, and meatball. Ok, things are going well. Then things start to get a little slow...about 20 to 25 min wait. Ok, a wait is acceptable if the food is good. Lasagna finally appeared. I tried the sauce first and thought someone poured a bunch of sugar in here! Then it got spicy. This is the italian version of sweet and sour sauce. The meatball was something else. That thing was microwaved quick. Complete watery mush inside. The sweet sauce did not help out the flavor either. The sausage was the same. Mush! That dang sauce was on it too. Dont know if this is a normal thing with the place, but I would suggest someone to go to Olive Garden before coming here. And it'll probably be cheaper if not the same. Review from Ken B. Who doesn't look good in pink lighting? No one. This place is gorgeous in all of its beautifully tacky, old school, pink lighting charming ways. It has a 70's lounge, dark wood, oil painting, dusty grape bunches kind of feel to it. I love that. The staff is either young family members bussing tables or loyal employees from decades past that seem to run this place. Huge 5 stars on the decor and environment in my love of tacky opinion. The food, well maybe 3 stars. The bread is the,( why do I love this bread so much) soft, white with sesame seeds type of Italian bread. The salads are ice cold old school iceberg lettuce salads. The pasta sauce is the sweet red sauce variety. There are mediocre to good things to have off this menu. It's the kind of place that if you grew up going here, you probably have your favorite dish, authentic or not, that you crave every now and again. It is what it is. I think we can all find that dish or two that we love for whatever reason and that alone should bring you back to Anthony's. That and the decor, definitely the decor! Review from Thomas A. Two of our gal-pals invited us out for a Groupon-fueled, feeding orgy, so we hopped in the Caddy and tooled on over to Anthony's this past Tuesday night. I absolutely adore, the homey, friendly, neighborhood atmosphere here! It is always a delight to come to Anthony's and be greeted at the door, seated promptly and the servers are always so attentive and polite. Truly, these young people (and some not so young) are the epitome of excellent service. I can't say enough for the way Anthony's genuinely treats their customers like they truly appreciate the patronage. Anyhoo, one of our gal-pals ordered some chicken livers with marinara sauce as an appetizer and they were so delicious my mouth is watering now, just reminiscing about them. Crunchy on the outsdie and tender and flavorful on the inside. One of our gal-pals ordered the shrimp diavolo. The sauce was slighly creamy, rich and with a nice bite to it. With 8 large shrimp, delicious! The other gal-pal had a seafood pasta that I did not get to try but it looked nice. My dining companion had Pasta Anthony with enormous meatballs. I didn't get to sample that either but I noticed the bowl was empty at the end of dinner. I ordered Vitello Piselli con Fungi but we ditched the Piselli (peas...can't stand 'em). This is how these servers are so cool. I mentioned sadly that I wish I could have the Vitello (veal) without Piselli (peas). The server immediately informed me that he could have the dinner prepared without peas. Wow! Fab! So, out came a large dish with two nice pieces of breaded veal with mozzarella cheese melted on top, placed over a nice splash of marinara. The veal was supremely tender, easily cut with a fork, and seasoned heavenly! The meal came with choice of potato or pasta and I opted for the shell pasta. Oh, what an orgasmic combo of flavors, textures and pure taste sensation! We also ordered a delightful bottle of Chianti Quercetto (I probably have the exact name wrong.) and my gosh this wine went perfectly with our dinner. It was nicely dry with out being puckeringly dry. It had a smokey, oakey flavor without the aftertaste. Excellent! The ladies had spumoni for dessert but we were full as ticks and decided not to have dessert. Listen up y'all. This is about as good as the small, family-owned and run Italian joints in KC gets. It remains and excellent dining experience and I hope to be able to visit Anthony's for many years to come. You cannot go wrong here and if there is an issue, let the servers know. They will take care of it to your satisfaction. Trust! 1 Previous Review: Show all » We made a new friend this weekend and so we jumped in the Caddy and skeedaddled on over to Armour… Read more » Review from Christopher Thomas B. Lees Summit, MO At Anthony's the charm almost makes up for the missteps. Like you've heard before, Anthony's prides itself on service. This place feels old school, and you can tell by the clientele that it IS old school. You go to Anthony's to reminisce. To talk about the way things used to be. Back when people actually dressed up to go out, and diners could linger for an hour after their plates were cleared. In this way, Anthony's is far from your average chain. In terms of the food, let's just say the charm and ambience does a decent job of compensating. Your salad is run-of-the-mill---as in the dole bag salad production mill. In choice between quality and quantity, the latter wins, though the price tag suggests otherwise. On a recent trip, I tasted my pollo provolene accompanying pasta and let my date have a bite. "What does that taste like to you?" I quizzed. "Spaghettios?" Can't fool a former kid's palate. So if better-than-average service and 1985 italian throwback is your thing---and you could care less what osso bucco is--head on over to Anthony's. Review from David A. Is that a dinosaur or a chicken breast? Hard to tell! Come on Sunday and find out (Fried Chicken special). Great friendly service. Interesting artwork that remind me of a 1970's Italian restaurant/lounge. Italian salad dressing with black pepper hit the spot. Nice soft warm bread. Linguine with sweet red sauce and a huge serving of fried chicken all for $13 and we brought home more than half! I wonder if they have less expensive smaller quantity lunch menus. I can't wait to come back! You may have some initial sticker shock at the price, but remember it's 2 or 3 meals there. Huge portions! You'd think it was a dive if you drove or walked by it, but it's quite good size inside and has a wonderful menu and great staff. Of note, we know they have a few tables outside, so asked if we could bring our dog and and they said they don't serve food outside :( Review from Katie D. Classic. This is about as close to Italy as you'll get in the midwest. Although we all know that I'm a loyal Accurso's fan, I love the old school charm and vibe of Anthony's with their dark plush couches, tacky Italian decor, and dimly lit interior--it's like you're living in a scene from The Godfather. This place is truly old school. All dark haired Italian men working, older clientele eating and mingling at the bar, and Frank Sinatra cranked up over the speakers. Our server was the only male worker under the age of 40 working and whew!--what a little Italian Stallion he was. Sorry, just had to through that out there. The atmosphere of Anthony's is great. Like aforementioned, it's an older crowd full of regulars that the bartender knows by name. Everyone is loud and happy. When we were there, they were also hosting their monthly Ladies Night Out charity event, where they host about a billion different local jewelry vendors and all the gals can roam the jewelry while sipping cocktails and swapping stories. I opted out of meandering the jewelry displays although the host took the initiative to sit us right next to all the displays anyways, so I was constantly getting knocked in the head with bulging Versace purses of the women passing by. Every food dish is loaded with garlic. Everything. Had my first experience with escargot at Anthony's. I was terrified to try it, just terrified. But thanks to their overly apparent love for garlic, it wasn't half bad. The snails were tender, and served without their shells. They tasted extremely salty--like fresh salt water. They were swimming in a pool of garlic butter that helped reduce the taste their saltiness, and they came with a side of garlic bread to top off with the snails. During the course of our escargot, we ran out of bread. A very loud, flamboyant man walked by dressed in a grease stained t-shirt, jeans, and lots of jewelry--leave it to the jewelry vendors. He glances down and notices that we're out bread. In a very loud, strong, Italian tone he yells to our server, "Hey Fraannkkie, why ain't they got bread, eh? Go get da' bread for dem!" Then he smiles to us and says, "Don't cha' just loooovvee my bracelets? I just bought them!". And then he saunters off. Priceless. I order their Artichoke Chicken for dinner and it was heavy on the garlic. Imagine that. The chicken was slightly over cooked, leaving it dry and tough. It was loaded with artichoke hearts, garlic, and pepper. It came served with a house salad and side of pasta. The salad tasted and looked like it was straight from a bag of Dole lettuce. My friend ordered their Veal Eggplant which is disturbing to even think about since it's baby cow meat (while I sit over here and eat chicken. I'm such a hypocrite) and he enjoyed it, although he did mention that it was heavy on the garlic and over cooked. He slices me off a slab and shoves it in my face asking me if I want a bite of his baby moo-moo. How rude. Anthony's was a very memorable experience. I'd love to go back. The food was decent and thankfully I do love me some garlic, or else I'd probably have issues with the place. I would recommend this place to anyone looking for an out of the ordinary Italian place to eat. It's very welcoming and once you hear Franky blaring over the radio, you immediate feel at home. Review from Michelle M. - 1 friend - 2 reviews Kansas City, MO I had the worst experienced at Anthony's. The waitress was unfriendly, rude and unpleasant. My food turned out to be very bland. My boyfriend agreed that my spaghetti is better than what we had at Anthony's. The waitress did not address my concerns. I left Anthony's with a hungry belly. Review from Dan D. Here is the biggest issue I have here, pasta and red sauce take no time to dish and serve. The problem is this place has a massive issue in the kitchen with prioritizing how to get tables of 1-4 out before parties of 12-20. My girlfriend and I went over the weekend and we walked in around 5:15 sat for about 10 minutes before we were greeted by our waiter, nice guy didn't seem to aware of time though. Ordered our appetizer which was fried mozzarella got to our table 19 minutes later. Having worked in the service industry this is maybe a 5 minute from order to delivery type of item. To the waiters credit it came out hot and well presented. Bread basket came with good thick cut bread, with rock hard butter. This is a small pet peeve of mine, butter for bread should be served soft this is day 1 stuff. Salad were next, not bad and served very cold, good job. Then we waited and waited and waited. Got our food about 40 minutes after our salad plates were taken away. This is unacceptable anywhere but especially a place where you are serving pasta and pre-made red sauce. Ravioli and Spaghetti take no more than 9 minutes to cook from scratch, 40 minutes for two plates just won't do. Another thing that I could not allow was the fact that a regular came in sat down and was served his food within 10 minutes of arrival with service that actually came and talked to him. If our server said 50 words to us the entire evening I would be shocked. Not to mention he was completely aware of the fact that we were getting upset with the wait. No manager came over to see how everything was if we were satisfied with our service/dinner. Let's face it this place has the ability to be great but since they have shown no interest in making sure guests are happy this place is off my list forever. DO NOT GO HERE, is my recommendation. Review from jennifer j. Kansas City, MO I live in River Market and I have been curious about this place for years. It always seemed so mysterious. No windows, you never see patrons coming or going and I don't have any friends who have tried it out. After a long First Friday exhibition, we took a vote and all felt up for something new. The exterior reminds me of most of the restaurants in Phoenix. Sketch on the outside, but all the money is spent inside. In this case, I don't think they have spent any money on the interior recently, but at one time they did. It was just as I had imagined. The red glow, mirrored walls, Italian murals, old school group at the bar, lounge singer and an Italian menu that the Midwest loves. Lounge singer, Frank Cherrito was performing when we arrived. It was nice background, but every half our it seemed to get a little louder. At the end of our meal, we couldn't even hear each other over "New York, New York." There was a Lonnie Anderson double that was filling in on duets and she was really getting the bar area rolling. A lot of customers were coming in just to drink at the bar. We started with the fried calamari, which was perfectly fried and tender. My entree was chicken spinidini, which was also fried (but didn't say it on the menu) and came in a thin olive oil sauce. The spindini was decent, but the pasta that came on the side had a thin & watery tomato sauce. Most of the sauce rested at the bottom, so it was hard to get any flavor unless you used a spoon. The service was very attentive and quick. Waitstaff used teamwork to get things done and that is always impressive. You know what? It is met my expectations. Anthony's is not pretending to be something it is not. It is straight forward with old school charm on the side. Think Garazzo's with added character and more attention to the customer. There is a reason that this place has been in business downtown for over 31 years. I am not even going to try and color correct my photos of Anthony's, because this is part of the experience that is Anthony's. Do you remember the Sinfield Kenny Rogers Rotisserie episode? Apparently, Anthony's does a fried chicken night on Sundays? I think that is worth another trip. Review from Farah A. I really liked this place. It's a very old-school Italian family kind of place. If you're looking for an urban and trendy restaurant this is not it. It was dimly lit with a traditional flowery, dark and plush decor. Seeing the tables-for-two immediately put a picture of the lady and the tramp spaghetti-sharing scene. This place has a really warm feeling and it has character. I went with a few friends for a late night dinner. The servers and staff were very attentive, amenable to slight food changes, and great about checking in to see if they were okay. Ask the staff for recommendations if the menu seems a bit varied; they know what they're talking about. The food is seriously old-fashioned Italian and delicious. The red cream sauce is the regulars' favorite and the house Italian dressing is fresh and delightful. The portions are big and I liked how they took your plate into the kitchen, put it in a box and saran-wrapped it tightly for you to take home. I hate slopping pasta into a box on the table you're sitting at. The espresso and desert were good too and it all just felt really comfortable. As we left the whole staff and owner all thanked us for coming with big smiles and waves goodbye like we were old friends. This restaurant is down-to-earth and welcoming. I think Olive Garden should relinquish the "When you're here, you're family" slogan and give it to Anthony's! Review from AJ G. Anthony's is not really an Italian restaurant. It's an old-school Italian-American restaurant, purveying food that, on one hand, might be considered to be upholding the tradition, and on the other hand might just be tired and uninspired. The look and feel of the place is familiar to anyone who has visited mom-and-pop Italian restaurants in Brooklyn, Long Island or South Philadelphia: painted murals with generic images of the old country on the wall, framed pictures of Italian notables (although, inexplicably, there is a head shot of Paul Prudhomme...I wonder if they confused him with someone else?), dark paneling. The tables are topped with woodgrain formica, the dishes generic, and the flatware cheap, stamped metal and well used, not unlike your high school cafeteria. Frank Sinatra croons on an incessant loop. The crowd seems local, older, and quite happy -- probably not the type who would be reading reviews on Yelp. I found the best thing about the restaurant to be the perfume of garlic and tomato that greets you at the door and suffuses the dining room. Alas, it promises flavor that is not delivered on the plate. The plates are brought by staff that is reasonably professional and friendly, who circulate frequently and are anxious to spoon grated parmesan on virtually anything. Bland melted mozzerella hiding something underneath is a theme here, as is sides of pasta with disappointingly thin and insipid marinara sauce. Veal scaloppine, available in various guises, is rubbery. Chicken and fish are creatively seasoned with salt, pepper and a bit of oregano, and are presented on an otherwise empty plate in a puddle of oil that is probably meant to compensate for being overcooked and dry. In other parts of the country, Italian-American menus like this are prepared with love by mothers and grandmothers who still staff and supervise the kitchens: it has flavor and delight. Kansas City must be lacking in Italian grandmothers; I can't imagine any in the kitchen at Anthony's -- only a series of unskilled short order cooks trying to follow recipes for which they have no feel. You might think of Anthony's as the type of place that people went to in the middle of the 20th century, before they learned about freshness, creativity, flavor, and quality. If you are in the mood for something of a living museum, then this might be the place. Otherwise, you might do best by standing in the doorway, inhaling a lungful of that delicious scent, and then seeking a good meal elsewhere. Review from Cathy C. Kind of a working man's Garozzo's or Cascone's. But nothing wrong with that, especially the food, and the fact that we got a table without waiting on a Saturday night! The seafood in my daughter's Pasta Putanesca really tasted like seafood-not overcooked or overseasoned, but full of flavor. I wanted Vodka Penne, which they didn't offer, but the Ravioli Serrone with wine and red pepper just got better and better! Throw in a glass of chianti and Dino and Frank in the background, and you've got yourself a FINE meal! Review from David M. Great to go back to a different time. Sauce is sweet and nice. Service is good. Ambience is really dated but cool. We go every now and then. Never disappointed. Owners are great! Review from Angela A. My dad kept raving about the fried chicken special at this Italian place called Anthony's so off we went on a Sunday afternoon to check it out. He was right to rave. Every Sunday and Monday, Anthony's Restaurant and Lounge serves up a fried chicken special (three GIANT pieces) with your choice of side (pasta, eggplant permesan or baked potato). Take your cholesterol pills and eat up! Soooo yummy! And we had a lovely waitress named Gina who was very kind, funny and attentive. In summary, the food was great, the service warm and professional, the ambience "classic KC Italian" (don't ask me to explain that- it is what it is). I absolutely plan to go back to try out the Italian food next. :) Review from Brittney H. - 0 friends - 5 reviews Prairie Village, KS Nothing spectacular. I probably won't go back. Review from Heather K. - 35 friends - 60 reviews Kansas City, MO Meh. I've eaten here twice. I think the owner's brother must have an imitation crab business or something. I've never seen such use of fake crab rolls. I'm not one to snub imitation crab, I've even snacked on sticks of it like string cheese, but I think there is a place for it and the place isn't in a huge mound on top of a steak smothered in butter juice that you pay twenty bucks for. Okay, so this wasn't MY dish, and no, I didn't try it. I had the cheese ravioli and artichoke. The "seafod" stuffed artichoke, which was awful, and mostly consisted of breadcrumbs and ten pounds of fake crab tubes. With a little shrimp. You couldn't even eat the artichoke itself. It was way overcooked, and even the heart on the inside wasn't good and had a funny hairy texture I've never had in an artichoke before. It was like french kissing a mountain man. Who just ate ten pounds of fake crab. The cheese raviolis and house salad were good, and the vegetable lasagna was decent but very dry. They have great eggplant parmesan loaded with cheese. Who decorated this place? Last night I went for a friend's birthday and sat in the back room reserved for parties. And then I realized... this must've been a mexican restaurant before it became Anthony's. And they never redecorated. Maybe they're waiting for their fake crab side business to pan out and plan to use some of the profits to paint over the aztec theme in that room. The service was great! But I think one of our waiters, who was too young to get me a beer, was selling cigarettes out of the back of the restaurant off his bike. You can see this from the rear windows in the Mexican room. On a side note, I learned something really cool about downtown KC last night. As I was sitting outside listening to the Jackyl concert ("How the hell can you NOT play the chainsaw?") a few blocks away at the rivermarket, the sound bounces all over the huge buildings and it sounds like it's coming from EVERYWHERE. It's really cool, actually! Review from annie t. This is such a romantic and old-school place to kick back with a glass of red wine and some major carbs. We always get the veal and chicken; both are delicious. I can't say enough about the atmosphere; it feels like you're dining out on Sopranos and you're cool enough to actually be in the know about a place like this. The wait-staff is friendly and to the point, and they are always willing to please. The food is great; you can take your parents there or go on a date...we haven't taken the kids yet but I wouldn't be completely against it. It's just more of a date-spot to us. I've seen teenages on their way to prom dining there, lots of cute older couples, and lots of cool normal people like myself! You don't have to be dressed up to come here, but you can feel comfortable in your fancy clothes too. They have a nice strong drink and dim lights, which is always a nice combo! Review from brandon J. - 14 friends - 10 reviews Kansas City, MO Not upperscale service. Poor quality food therefore we left without eating and the manger didn't provide any type of service Review from Katy L. Walking into Anthony's is like stepping back in time, in a very good way. It is my favorite place in KC to eat. The food is delicious and the ambiance and service are great. I always get the spaghetti and meatballs and some Chianti and I can't describe how happy it makes me.

- Restaurants | - Nightlife | - Shopping | - Movies | - All Anthony's Restaurant Categories: Restaurants Italian Restaurants Greek Restaurants Mediterranean Italian, Greek, Mediterranean [Edit]309 W Broad St Falls Church, VA 22046 (703) 532-0100 - Hours: Mon-Fri 11 am - 11 pm Sat 8 am - 11 pm Sun 8 am - 10 pm - Good for Groups: - Yes - Accepts Credit Cards: - Yes - Parking: - Private Lot - Attire: - Casual - Price Range: - $$ - Good for Kids: - Yes - Takes Reservations: - No - Delivery: - No - Take-out: - Yes - Waiter Service: - Yes - Outdoor Seating: - No - Wi-Fi: - No - Good For: - Lunch - Alcohol: - Beer & Wine Only - Noise Level: - Average - Has TV: - Yes - Wheelchair Accessible: - Yes Sarah S. said: "First up, a disclaimer: I'm a sucker for any arugula-crowned pizza. Stopped by here for a pizza and happy hour after a long day at the zoo. It was a quiet night when we got there so the waitstaff was very attentive. We ordered drinks…" read more » 48 reviews for Anthony's Restaurant Review Highlights - "...pizza is great, the baked spaghetti is incredible, and the..." In 4 reviews - - 48 reviews in English Review from Jamie L. Drove by this 'hole in the wall' type of diner, and decided to give it a try. After spotting other diners enjoying the burger plate, my date and I decided to do the same. The cheeseburger plate comes with a quarter pound burger, a generous mound of crinkle cut fries, and coleslaw. Although I didn't care much for the flavor of the coleslaw dressing, the cheesburger and fries were very well done! Nice toasted bun, fresh toppings, cooked to order. We both walked out of the restaurant commenting on how great the meal tasted, and we also took a peek at what others had ordered. I LOVE salads, and noticed that the salads that other diners were eating looked really fresh and scrumptious. The greek salads had giant chunks of feta cheese on them. I will definately be back to Anthony's, and next time I'll order a salad for sure. And based on the yelp reviews, may need to try their baked spaghetti, too! Lastly, just wanted to add that our server was lovely and attentive, and the food came out very quickly!! Review from Jennifer D. - 9 friends - 23 reviews Falls Church, VA I have been coming to Anthony's for about 8 years. A colleague told me we had to check it out. I used to come for the pizza but over the last few years enjoy coming for the meatball sub and delicious crinkle cut fries. First of all, the soda is always flat. Always. Not sure why this is, but sometimes I forget and order an orange soda and am disgusted when I taste it. Flat Sprite is one thing, but flat orange soda is gross. Second reason why I only gave three stars - slowest, most unfriendly service. There is probably only one waitress who seems to care and the rest move at the rate of a snail. Better not let your drink get too low, you need to time it with food arriving or you will never see your waitress again. With that said, the food is good and every so often I am a glutton for poor service punishment. Also, prices are really decent and we like to support local restaurants. Review from Unsilent M. - 24 friends - 32 reviews Los Angeles, CA Just got their cold cut hoagie(italian) ...amazing!!!! The good kind of east coast bread that is crunchy hard on the outside and soft and sweet inside. The portion and price is a great deal. Got a soda and drank a lil bit and they offered me a refill before I left. Great food, great people...I will definitely be back! Review from Fred W. Been going for years and find it a solid choice. It is an old school family place in great need of updating. Food is decent not great if you keep you expectations in check you should leave satisfied and happy to return. Review from Dona P. I have lived in falls church for almost 9 years and had been to Anthonys once. Coming from Nj, this mom and pop diner like establishment was so underwhelming we never returned. BUT recently we needed a quick b-fast option, & I noticed they were now serving b-fast until later. It was a pleasant surprise!! I ordered an egg white omelet with veggies. It came with a choice of toast (we picked rye) & home fries which were seasoned nicely!! The bf got chocolate chip pancakes and what was nice is you can order them in one, two, or three. They were fluffy and good too! It's def not brunch at busboys and poets (our regular go to), but was still tasty and fast! We'd go back again.... It's also made us consider grabbing lunch or dinner there sometime.. Other reviews noted their pizza is yum...! Review from Rachel R. My favorite place ever to get gyros. I have been ordering the gyros here for years. Review from Diana C. I've only ever been for breakfast, so I don't know how good a review I can write, but, I've been a lot. ;) The choices for breakfast are pretty limited, and they are of the "hard to mess up" variety, but they do them well. I usually skip the carb-laden extras like the potatoes and toast, but the bacon is normally nice and crispy and the eggs are cooked exactly to order. The coffee is pretty weak-gross diner style brew, but it at least is a good hold-over until I can get gigantic brew elsewhere. The service is pretty friendly, though if it is packed it can be understandably a bit slow. Review from Kevin L. Best Steak and Cheese in Falls Church. I've been eating there since it was a tiny, one room space in 1975. Good food and friendly people running it. Review from K M. I like Anthony's. We go there quite a bit. I agree with previous posters that it's fantastic that they're open until 11-REALLY open until 11. We've ordered pizza at 10.45 and they're super nice when you pick it up. Their pizza is pretty good. There's something about the crust that is delicious. I usually don't eat crust-but I actually eat Anthony's first, because I like it so much. I disagree about it being expensive. Maybe it's more expensive than some of the diners in PA or NY, but we have dinner there and the bill is always around $25. That's what we pay at Chipotle. Keep in mind that this is largely diner food, you're not going to 2941-but it's good and the servers are very nice. I usually don't have room, but their baklava is delicious. Review from Raj T. Grew up in the city of FC in the 70s & 80s so this place was always a local fave/landmark. My mom knows the orig owner's son who I believe is running it now. I spent some time in FC after many years away and ate here almost 3-4 times a week for over a year - great good, great portions, unbelievable prices. didn't seem like they could do anything wrong (pizza, gyros, subs) and I'd been recommending it to friends for years. Baked spag is what they're popular for. The cooks, wait staff changed over but all was okay (or so I thought). I was hugely disappointed/heartbroken after bringing a date here to show her one of my fav guilty pleasures only to end up taking a bite of my gyro and finding a hair in my food....and not just any kind of hair, but a curly certain-body-part type. I froze and was nauseous at the same time...rock solid stomach/can handle most anything but something like this has never happened to me. I still get nauseous thinking about it. The waitress apologized and went the mgr (unsure of what to do). She didn't offer anything else or a replacement item. I guess thought it was a regular hair, which I wouldn't have been nearly as unhappy about. In the end they didn't charge me for my item. I will never go back there again unfortunately and am sad to say this. I remember the cook giving me a stare down as we walked in but there was no way he could've known which table I was at....? Review from james g. An update to my earlier review, holding steady at 4 stars. I like the fact that they are open until 11. You can walk in the door at 10:30 and get served without a side of StinkEye. But it is pretty quiet in the large dining room at that hour. The weekend brunch is what you'd expect at a diner. Service suffers when things get really busy, and I don't think they serve bloody marys but if you want to get some eggs and home fries, this is a solid option. For dinners I like the pizza just fine, but the baked spaghetti is still my favorite. So surprise, but the tables and booths are unchanged since the original review. Come prepared to get your kitsch on. Listed in: After 10pm in FC 1 Previous Review: Show all » This place would be Pasta Mia if they made you wait in a long line outside. But they don't. They… Read more » Review from Ryan M. Pretty solid four stars. First tried at the Taste of Falls Church event and the food was a standout. Love the local-restaurant character and authentic greek food. The decor could use some updating, but overall a great local spot to grab a bite. Review from Chunnu B. 2.5 - A desperate cry for dinner after discovering our original dinner location closed at 5 pm is what led us to Anthony's. To throw things into perspective, Anthony's is your typical huge Greek diner. Lots of space which was just barely half-way filled with a significantly older crowd. I will say they did have quick, friendly, and attentive service. The food though? Forget about it. Our food was out probably 5-10 minutes after placing the order and well, I can say that my dish tasted like it was just pushed out quick. The ".5" for this review is coming from the chicken souvlaki I got to steal a bite of. That turned out to be pretty good. However, the garlic bread and grape leaves were a huge flop. Good thing I didn't come in with a huge appetite because I was done in two bites. For what you're paying, it's not worth is. $9 for yucky grape leaves? I think not. There are easily many better Greek diners out there. Review from Shaun W. When I ordered "Doctor Hart's Veggie Sub" from Anthony's in Falls Church, I was expecting a cold sub with peppers, onions, tomatoes, mushrooms, olives, etc in a wine or vinegar based dressing.... perhaps with a little feta cheese sprinkled on top. Instead, I got fried veggies SWIMMING in melted cheese. There was more melted cheese than veggies. It was extremely greasy. There was nothing healthy about that sub. And I ordered fries to go with it because I didn't eat breakfast and I thought I was getting a healthy sandwich for my lunch. Ugh. Guess that counts as lunch AND dinner for tonight. It was tasty. Expensive, but tasty. Parking was lousy. Avoid this place like the plague if you're dieting! I bet they fry their salads in lard!* * This is hyperbole, not libel. :) Review from Marcello J. - 28 friends - 20 reviews Arlington, VA I try to go to Anthony's every weekend for their awesome Gyros! My girlfriend and I love the food there- and we know Italian! Review from Gayle G. If you know going in what this place is all about (Italian, family style greasy spoon) then Anthony's isn't half bad. There is other stuff on the menu other than Italian options. every time we go, we tend to stick to those or the Greek choices The pizza here is surprisingly good and so is chicken suvlaki-- but the chicken has a LOT of onions. The portions are huge. Hubby likes the baked spaghetti. This place has an old school feel, as well it should since it has been here since the early 1970's. Totally a neighborhood type place where the patrons are regulars and know each other. And for an early morning (or a late night) you can get an omelet any time. And the ones here are much better than at say..IHOP. Review from Hendrik J. - 0 friends - 37 reviews Arlington, VA Anthony's is somewhat of a fixture in Falls Church--an overrated one. They have a captive, rich set of patrons because there just isn't another sit-down, family restaurant within miles. And DON'T even get me started on the skanky Applebee's three blocks away. That's not an option. The food and service are also generally good. Having eaten there a dozen or more times in as many years, I'd say much of the food tends to be a bit on the sweet side, reflecting the Greek influence. Their Gyros is admittedly some of the best around (but Linda's Cafe in neighboring Arlington has more flavor and is far cheaper). Their pizza is good but expensive. French fries and onion rings are excellent. Chicken tenders and kids' meals are fine. The prices, though, are outrageous, especially because, as others have noted, the place is looking somewhat run-down. They just hiked their prices in October 2009, so that your standard Gyros Platter is now $16.95. Add your $2 soda and tip, and a family of four is going to be paying close to $100 for a meal. I'm sorry, but it's just not worth it. If you really need a meal in Greek diner with smoky ambiance and a wall-mounted TV blaring in the background, I recommend Anthonys. If you're only interested in food (especially carryout) there are others nearby that will meet your needs. Two Chefs or Linda's Cafe in Arlington are fine. They're a little greasier on the greasy-spoonometer, but I tend toward greasy spoons. Review from Shawn H. I would not go to Anthony's for dinner with a few friends or on my own. I probably wouldn't take my Mom there unless she wanted heavy "Greek Italian" food either. For large groups, Anthony's is spectacular. The food is good and it's priced well. There's something for everyone and the service is great. I eat here in a large group 3-4 times a year and that's all I can stand because it's the kind of diner-like cuisine that just isn't right for my age group, but there are first timers with our group that love it every time. The Baklava is awesome. So is just about everything else. The baked spaghetti dishes are is enough for three people! The calamari is not great. The garlic bread is soaked in something that is definitely not healthy, but it's tasty in a kind of VERY heavy way. If you want something excellent, this is NOT the place. If you want something everyone will be OK with and you are a large group on a budget, ask for the back room and enjoy. Listed in: Just outside the beltway Review from Richard D. New York, NY I thought this place was okay. The food was pretty standard Italian, and the service was good. I ordered a chicken parm, and that was good, but I really don't see how you can mess that one up. The decor like most things in old town falls church, seems pretty dingy and outdated. If you want some italian food, you can't really go wrong, although I think you can find better. It's just some basic diner atmosphere with some italian food thrown in. Review from Kim H. My pancakes came out cold and my breakfast sandwich was something I could have made at home. Review from Giulia H. Not sure how I got here... It could just be me, because I'm quite the picky eater, but this place reminded me of a run-down mom & pop restaurant with an elderly person vibe to it. Despite the atmosphere, I ignored it and decided to continue with my meal- one of the homemade pizzas.. bad idea! The taste resembled cardboard and needless to say, I didn't finish it. But I don't think it's fair for me to write this restaurant off (well, in my book it's already too late for that, but idk about you guys...), just because I feel so awful writing a bad review because the family who owns this place seems so nice.. i guess all i can say is, sorry! Review from Danilo B. Best Gyro's in Northern VA. And tied with Deli Italiano for best subs in Northern VA. The rest of the menu is also great and very authentic. And from what I hear, this place is known by many (especially Gyro lovers) throughout the country. Review from Phil H. I've had Anthony's twice in the past week....so may as well make a post. After a 14 mile run I felt like I'd earned a gyro....and had been reading about how good these ones were and gave it a shot. They are definitely solid..and bigger than any other gyro I've had....tons of meat and a decent enough tzatziki sauce....ample veggies...it needed more feta. I honestly don't remember there even being feta on it....but there must have been right? Two Chefs in Arlington is still the best gyro I've had in NoVA. Plaka 2nd. For pizza tonight, due to Paisano's illiterate phone receptionist..I drove back to get an Anthony's pie They're better than any mass produced delivery joints around here. Nice charred crust....but I got one with bacon and onions. There was what amounted 2 to slices of bacon...which isn't enough bacon to have it in every bite...but at least it was "real bacon"...there was also a paltry amount of onions on the pizza as well....and they didn't get cooked enough....so they didn't really work well for me....there was almost too much cheese on the pizza for my liking and it made for a soggy-ish pizza that was hard to separate from the other slices. IMO...even though they're a cheap add on...there isn't enough topping to warrant adding them on. The place has an awesome, family, and home-town atmosphere to it...which I love. I'll go back for sure...but it's not exactly addictive. You kinda get what you pay for and nothing more. Review from Yan W. I haven't tried the regular menu here yet, but it was pretty nice for dessert. I tried the Greek dessert, bugatsa, and it was very enjoyable. It was basically a "cake" that tasted like custard. Although I little run down and tired, it was a very nice, family-atmosphere. Review from Albert O. I've not had anything here but breakfast, but the breakfast menu is great. They bake biscuits on site here, so you should try those. A couple of my other favorites are the farmers omelet and the Greek omelet with feta. They serve breakfast till mid day here on the weekends, so have breakfast for lunch here....you won't be disappointed. Prices are pretty reasonable as well. Review from john s. You can't beat Anthony's for traditional American version of Italian food. The pizza is great, the baked spaghetti is incredible, and the meatballs are terrific! I've never tried the Greek menu, but looking forward to going back and trying the gyro! Great family restaurant, especially friendly staff and kids love it. Review from S N. This place is great.... best NY style pizza in Falls Church! For my first time eating in, I ordered a pasta dish that lasted for four days it was so huge. It was delicious and the service was great! Will definitely be back soon. Review from Sarah s. I have been going here for years. Great food. I love the gyro and the pizza is always wonderful. This is a great place to take the family. Review from Adrian B. I noticed a sign out front stating the restaurant had been around since the 1970s and thought to myself, "if a restaurant's been around that long in this environment, it must be good." I probably won't head back, but it's not because of the food. The service was friendly and the food was primarily Italian and Greek, as other reviewers have noted. It had a family feel to it, but I think the interior is in need of some updating. The portions they served were enormous, so you may be able to get away with splitting a dish or planning on taking some food home with you. The food was OK, but again, nothing I'll go back for. Review from Rebecca C. - 24 friends - 9 reviews Falls Church, VA One of those homey, been around forever, Italian and Greek places. Menu has everything and the waitresses recognized me after my second visit. Review from Stephanie N. - 395 friends - 671 reviews Clearwater, FL Family restaurant that has an almost diner-type feel in the middle of downtown falls church. Located across the street from the Starbucks, Kinko/Fed Ex, and Original Pancake House plaza. The menu is an interesting mix of italian/american/mediterranean food. Baklava is homemade and extra sticky. Ice creams are the kind you can get at a gas station at gas station prices - King Cones, Strawbery Shortcake Bars, etc. The best feature/quality about this place is that its the only restaurant that seems to stay open pretty late in quiet falls church. Review from shawn g. Reminds me of the diners found all over New York. mostly in that it has a huge menu and caters to clientèle of a bygone generation. This is a place you'd come with your grandfather, so don't expect anything extraordinary, but do expect to get huge servings. It took two of us to be able to finish off a chicken parm sub w/fries ($8.75) I'm curious about the pizza, which is advertised on their t-shirts, and the space is huge, so i might be coming back at some point, but it's not a deli as I thought from the sign outside on the right of the diner entrance. Review from Longgirl H. - 1 friend - 19 reviews Bethesda, MD First of all the service is fantastic. You are seated and then served right away. Never an empty glass. Food is great diner food. Meatball Sub is good the BBQ sanwich is great. So is the baklava., Very affordable. Family friendly. Can't say enough about this place. Full of regulars from every walk of life. Keith - If you didn't like it, you deserve to go across the street to the Pancake House and spend 3x as much. Review from Dee H. When i went here i thought i was in a time warp into the 70's. I had the meatball sub. Pretty sobstantial meal if i do say. The meatballs were hefty, with marinana and cheese oozing outta a toasted bun. the other menu items looked ok, but I jus wanted a sub and to keep it moving down the road. I think that sub jus digested 3 days ago... eat here before your next fast, but don't expect much flavor. Review from Chris K. I agree with the Anthony's fans. I had never laid eyes on the place until lunchtime today, but it's the kind of place that exudes authenticity and beckons you in. The menu's got the perfect amount of Greek, Italian, and diner dishes to tell you they've been doing what they do right for a very long time. So does the decor. I wanted a cheeseburger royal (with delicious slaw and nice big fat crinkle cut fries), so that's what I got, cooked to order (med rare). Also a nice cold Bud (draft or can available) after walking all the way over there from Ballston...served immediately and cheerfully in a frosty mug. Will be back for Greek dishes now that it's so effortlessly passed the initial tests. Recommended. Review from Meg G. 3.5 Stars..... the extra half star is for the friendly-family-customer service. I first dined here about two years ago. I really enjoy their pizzas; including the pita pizzas. The Greek salad is plentiful, but those chunks of feta are beyond huge!!! I get this Mediterranean fusion vibe whenever I enter the place. I have yet to try the stuffed grape leaves, but when I do... I'll definitely come back to update. Review from Somer P. Not somewhere I frequent, but a place I've been to a few times. Kind of a neighborhood /family restaurant with a Greek/Italian vibe. Their food is OK. I've had their pasta, gyro, and pizza - and its always been just OK. One thing I will say: they have really good Greek desserts: their baklava is GREAT and is served in huge pieces. I think I'll go back - but probably just for the baklava! Review from Harry R. Great family and wonderful service. Now that it's non-smoking throughout its also a good family choice. But order with care. I wouldn't stray from the pizza (which is best if ordered with "light cheese," otherwise the crust drowns under a blanket of the gooey white stuff) or the chicken souvlaki. Review from Natasha M. - 1 friend - 11 reviews Alexandria, VA My family has been coming to Anthony's ever since I was a kid. Over the years we've finally got our menu choices down to just a few items that we have over and over again. First of all, to drink you have to get their iced tea - it's the best ever. I think we finish at least a gallon of it while we're there. Then for appetizers get the chef salad (or garden salad if you don't like the meat) with their house dressing. The house dressing is to die for - and we always order extra on the side to basically drench our salads in it. Main course: White pizza with spinach and feta cheese. Now, I've tried my fair share of white pizzas but I have to say I've never been disappointed with this combo. It's consistently perfect. Then to end the meal have a piece of baklava (not the best, but it helps round out the meal). Review from Michael E. - 4 friends - 65 reviews Falls Church, VA Ok food at best. With great Greek options in Arlington like Athenas Palace and value steak & cheese places like Maleks and Atlantis in the area, this place just doesn't stack up. The steak and cheese isn't that good and the building itself needs some updating.

- Shopping Bag ( 0 items ). (Mar.)Copyright © Reed Business Information, a division of Reed Elsevier Inc. All rights reserved. Chapter 19 The Platte City Shootout. Then she paid the $4 rent in loose change, undoubtedly looted earlier in the day from the cash registers and gum machines at the three service stations in Fort Dodge. Houser took the money and watched as the fellow driving the Ford V-8 pulled up to the cabins, opened the door of the garage between them, and backed his car in. Criminals were notorious for doing that so they could make fast getaways. Clyde got Bonnie settled in the right-hand cabin. W. D. Jones joined them there as usual. Buck and Blanche took the cabin on the left. Almost as soon as everyone was inside, Clyde sent for Blanche. He gave her more loose change and told her to go over to the tavern and buy five dinners and beer. She was to bring the food back so they could eat in the cabins. Blanche reminded Clyde that they'd just checked in as a party of three. Buying five meals would be a tip-off that there were more of them than that. But Clyde said he didn't care -- she was to get five dinners, period, and he wanted chicken if they had it. Blanche did as she was told, and as she poured more coins into his palm Houser said he'd have to go back to the cabins with her. He'd forgotten to take down the license number of their car, and it was required information from all their guests. Feeling helpless, Blanche led him back to the right-hand cabin and called for Clyde to come out. He opened the garage door so Houser could jot down the V-8 sedan's license number: Oklahoma 75-782. Clyde didn't think it was an immediate problem as he routinely switched plates on stolen cars. But it should have served as a warning sign that the staff at the Red Crown was especially vigilant. Clyde apparently didn't care. He told his family later that he liked the Red Crown cabins. They had stone and brick walls, which made him feel secure. If they needed to get to their car in a hurry, there was an interior door in Clyde's cabin that opened directly into the garage. Buck and Blanche's cabin didn't have one. They could only go in and out through the front door. After dinner, everyone went to bed. They slept late on the morning of July 19. When Buck woke up, he told Blanche to go over to the other cabin and see when Clyde, Bonnie, and W.D. would be ready to leave. Clyde said he'd decided they would stay another day. He wanted Blanche to fetch some more food and beer. Clyde felt relaxed about their situation. The cabins were nice. Bonnie needed rest. So Clyde gave Blanche yet another pile of change. After she brought the food, he sent her out to pay Houser $4 for a second night's stay. Blanche wasn't exaggerating in her memoir when she complained about having to run all the gang's errands. Houser took the money and told Blanche she could have a refund if her group decided to leave before nightfall. She thought it was an odd remark, and told Clyde that Houser "was the type that might tell the law we were there if he had the slightest suspicion about us." He was, and he didn't have to go far to do it. The Barrow Gang had no idea that the Red Crown Tavern served as a gathering place for local cops and the state highway patrol. Two-way radios were still nonexistent for most lawmen in the region, so officers and supervisors would often meet somewhere at mealtimes to exchange messages and receive orders. The Red Crown was a favorite spot because the food was so good. On July 19, Missouri Highway Patrol captain William Baxter and some of his men met there for lunch. Either Houser or one of his employees mentioned to Baxter that the people in the two tourist cabins were acting awfully strange. The woman checking them in said they were a party of three, but she was buying meals for five. Besides paying for everything in loose change and parking backward in the garage the way crooks often did, whoever was in the right-hand cabin had taped paper across the windows to block anybody looking in. Houser described them to Baxter, and also gave him the Ford's license number. Baxter made a note to check the plate, and meanwhile put the cabins under surveillance. Someone also passed the word about suspicious characters at the Red Crown cabins to Platte County sheriff Holt Coffey. Coffey and Baxter got along well. When they conferred early in the afternoon of the 19th, they concluded it was possible that the four or five people (they weren't entirely sure whether it was three men and two women, or two and two) might be the notorious Barrow Gang. Bonnie Parker was known to be badly injured, and a farmer in Iowa had recently reported finding used bandages at a campsite in the country. That meant the Barrows were probably somewhere in the region -- why not Platte City? The Barrows packed BARs, and Coffey worried that his own officers and the members of Baxter's highway patrol only had handguns and a few low-caliber rifles to return fire if it really was the gang and they tried to arrest them. Determined not to be outgunned, he went to see Sheriff Tom Bash, whose Jackson County department had jurisdiction for Kansas City and whose available armaments included machine guns, steel bulletproof shields, tear gas launchers, and armored cars. When Coffey drove over to ask for Bash's help, he didn't get the hoped-for offer of cooperation. As Coffey recalled it later, Bash snarled that he was "getting pretty damn tired of every hick sheriff in the country coming in here telling me they have a bunch of desperadoes holed up and wanting help." When Coffey insisted that they might be able to corner the infamous Barrow Gang, Bash finally agreed to send along a few officers and one armored car. This was an ordinary sedan whose sides had been reinforced with extra metal. While Coffey pleaded with Bash, Lieutenant Baxter of the highway patrol got a report back on his license check. The number matched the plate on a Ford V-8 stolen on June 26 from a Dr. Fields in Enid, Oklahoma. Clyde, of course, had long since left that vehicle behind, but he foolishly kept the plate and screwed it on the bumper of the V8 he stole outside Fort Dodge on July 18. The Barrow Gang was suspected of the car theft in Enid, so Baxter felt he had more proof that Clyde and his cohorts were holed up in the Red Crown cabins. By midafternoon, Baxter and Coffey began planning their raid. They knew Blanche had paid for the gang to stay a second night, so they decided to attack well after dark. The lawmen did their best to keep a low profile, but customers at the service station, grocery, and tavern all noticed highway patrolmen and county cops gathering and watching the tourist cabins. Word spread, and it soon seemed as though everyone but the Barrow Gang knew a confrontation was imminent. The newspaper Clyde had taped to his cabin windows to keep people from looking inside also prevented him from seeing what was going on outside. At some point, either Clyde or Blanche walked to a local drugstore to buy bandages and over-the-counter medical supplies for Bonnie. Witnesses subsequently disagreed about who it was. Apparently, the lawmen let him or her come and go freely, not wanting to alert the rest of the gang and risk letting them escape. The druggist, who'd heard the rumors about criminals being in town, contacted Coffey to tell him about the purchases. The sheriff now felt certain that Bonnie Parker was in one of the Red Crown cabins. That night in the left-hand cabin, Buck and Blanche talked about what they wanted to do next. Both were ready to leave Clyde, Bonnie, and W.D. They were tired of being bossed around. While Buck shined Blanche's boots, he suggested that they go north to Canada and find an isolated cabin to hide in. Buck thought they could make a living as trappers. Blanche said it would be fine with her -- anything to get away from the others. Then Blanche walked over to the grocery across the road to buy some soap. When she went inside, she noticed there were quite a few people there, and all of them stopped talking as soon as she entered. While Blanche waited for her purchases, she stepped on a scale and discovered she weighed ninety-one pounds, almost twenty less than she had back in March when Buck was released from prison. Back in the cabin, Blanche told Buck the people in the store had acted strangely. He suggested that she go tell Clyde about it. Buck added that he thought they'd be fine if they didn't leave until the morning. Clyde told her the same thing. He sent Blanche back to the left-hand cabin, and a few minutes later W.D. followed to say Clyde wanted her to return to the grocery for sandwiches and beer. She refused, so W.D. went. After he got back -- apparently, W.D. didn't notice anything suspicious going on -- everyone had some food and then went to bed. Around 1 a.m. on July 20, Baxter and Coffey gathered their men together. Counting themselves, the highway patrolmen, county cops, and two officers sent by Sheriff Bash of Jackson County in the armored car, the posse numbered thirteen. Coffey's nineteen-year-old son, Clarence, was one of the highway patrolmen, along with Leonard Ellis and Thomas Whitecotton. Whitecotton had rushed from the department office to be there. He was still wearing the fancy seersucker suit and Panama hat he favored for days spent behind a desk instead of out on patrol. Baxter and Coffey had machine guns. They also had thick metal shields that they carried in front of them like medieval knights. The shields were supposed to protect them from even high-caliber bullets. Coffey and Baxter were in the lead as the posse closed around the cabins. Jackson County officer George Highfill steered the armored car in front of the door of the garage connecting the cabins, effectively blocking the Ford V8 inside. Then he shone the car's lights directly on the left-hand cabin door. Crouching behind their shields, Coffey and Baxter moved forward. Coffey knocked on the door. Blanche jumped out of bed and began pulling on her jodhpurs and boots. Stalling for time, she asked who it was. Coffey yelled, "The sheriff -- open up!" From the right-hand cabin a man's voice replied, "Just a minute," and then the Barrow Gang started shooting, Clyde and W.D. from the right side and Buck from the left, blasting their bullets at the lawmen right through the cabin doors and windows. Watching from behind, Clarence Coffey told reporters later that he saw his father "pushed him back like he was hit by a high-pressure hose" as the bullets from the BARs smashed into his metal shield. Baxter was knocked back, too. The high-caliber slugs couldn't penetrate the shields, but their impact was still staggering. Except for the headlights of the armored car shining on the door of the left-hand cabin, the light in the area in front of the cabins was patchy. All highway patrolmen Whitecotton and Ellis could see were two shadowy figures lurching in front of the cabins while gunfire exploded everywhere. Whitecotton mistakenly thought Sheriff Coffey must be one of the Barrows and yelled to Ellis, "There's one of 'em! Get him!" Ellis, armed with a shotgun, raised his weapon and fired. A bit of buckshot scratched Holt Coffey's neck. Afterward, when Coffey bragged about being shot by the Barrow Gang and living to tell about it, Whitecotton and Ellis decided not to ruin the Platte County sheriff's story by revealing that he'd been hit by friendly fire. Inside the cabins, Clyde yelled for W.D. to go into the garage through the interior door and start the Ford. Bonnie fished the keys out of Clyde's pocket and tossed them to the teenager. When W.D. had the engine engaged, Clyde yelled for him to pull the garage door open, but the posse was pouring tremendous fire into the cabins and W.D. was too scared to do it. Holding his BAR in one hand, Clyde ran into the garage through the interior door and began pulling the door open himself. W.D. tried to help. As the door rose, they saw the armored car about fifteen feet in front of them blocking the way out. Clyde opened up on the car with his BAR. The car's side armor was supposed to repel any bullets, but Clyde's slammed through, wounding driver George Highfill in both legs. Another bullet smashed the horn button on the steering wheel, and the shrill howl of the horn blended with the gunfire. If Highfill had held his ground, the rest of the posse could have tightened their circle around the cabins and eventually captured the whole gang, but the injured officer astounded both his fellow lawmen and Clyde by easing the much perforated armored car several dozen yards to the right, opening a way for Clyde to drive the V8 straight through the surrounding cops. Both sides realized what was about to happen, and for a few seconds there was no more shooting. Using the interior door in the right-hand cabin that opened directly into the garage, Bonnie hobbled into the V8. Clyde and W.D. climbed in. But Buck and Blanche had to leave their cabin through the front door to get to the car, and as they slammed the door open and began running for the garage, the posse laid down a high-caliber fusillade. A bullet from Baxter's machine gun struck Buck in the left temple and exited out his forehead, taking away part of his skull and exposing his brain. He dropped between the cabin door and the car. Ever since she unwillingly joined the gang back in late March, Blanche Barrow repeatedly engaged in whining and other petty behavior. But now she proved she had courage. With bullets flying all around her, Blanche stopped to loop her arm under Buck's waist. Skinny and scared as she was, Blanche still helped Clyde drag Buck into the car while W.D. provided covering fire. Somewhere behind the cabins, one of the lawmen fired a tear gas rocket that overshot the Ford, sailed across the highway, and exploded next to the service station. Clouds of stinking smoke added to the chaos. Clyde floored the gas pedal of the V8 and drove straight out of the Crown Tavern lot, past Holt Coffey with his metal shield and onto Highway 71. Everyone in the posse was shooting and their bullets smashed into the Ford. In the back seat Blanche was bent over Buck, trying to shield him from further harm. Her face was turned toward the right, and that was the side where most of the posse were standing and firing. One of their bullets struck the car's back window. It exploded. Though her body protected her mortally wounded husband, glass splinters drove straight into both of Blanche's eyes. She screamed, "I can't see," but Clyde had to concentrate on getting them out of there and kept on going, around a sharp corner and then off into the night. The posse didn't immediately pursue them. The armored car was a sieve. Besides Highfill's wounded legs and Holt Coffey's nicks, several other officers had been injured, though none seriously. The Barrow Gang hadn't added to their body count of lawmen this time. Baxter got to a phone and called in a description of the gang's Ford, which like the Jackson County armored car was riddled with bullet holes. He emphasized that his posse "had a shooting scrape with the Barrow brothers." The lawmen found some pistols and a BAR in one of the cabins, along with syringes and morphine. The latter discoveries sparked rumors that the Barrow Gang were junkies, but the needles and dope were just the last remnants of booty from the doctor's bag Clyde had stolen back in Enid. While the posse poked about the Red Crown cabins, Clyde was finding it tough to get away from Platte City. He spent several hours lost on backcountry roads. At one point a tire went flat, and the V8 had to bounce along on the rim until Clyde found a suitable place to stop and change it. They encountered several locals but no police. Clyde assured Blanche that despite the glass slivers driven into them, her eyeballs weren't "busted." The right eye was less damaged than the left -- she could discern light and movement through it, but very little else. Buck faded in and out of consciousness. Blanche tried to keep her fingers pressed tightly against the hole in his head. The floor by the back seat was soaked with Buck's blood. He asked for water -- they had none to give him -- and even in his dire condition Buck tried to comfort Blanche by telling her his head only hurt a little. At dawn they stopped for gas at a service station north of Kansas City. Clyde told Blanche to cover Buck with a blanket, hoping the attendant wouldn't notice anything was wrong. Apparently he didn't think the man would see dozens of bullet holes in the car. But as soon as the attendant walked over, Buck began vomiting loudly, and the fellow looked in and saw the blood and carnage. Shaken by his brother's condition, Clyde simply drove away, telling Blanche he was sure the attendant would call the Kansas City cops to report seeing them. There was still enough fuel in the tank so that they could keep driving for a while. Clyde headed north into Iowa with no particular destination in mind. He just wanted to find a place where the gang could rest and get a better idea of everyone's physical condition. Buck was clearly doomed -- you could look right inside his head -- but it was hard to tell how much damage had been done to Blanche's eyes. W.D. had suffered some minor wounds in the shootout, and Bonnie was still in terrible shape. They stopped for gas again, and Clyde bought bandages, Mercurochrome, hydrogen peroxide, and aspirin. That was all they had to treat their injuries. They poured the hydrogen peroxide directly into the hole in Buck's skull, and then did their best to wrap his head. A pair of sunglasses helped protect Blanche's eyes. They drove toward Des Moines, pausing occasionally to change the bandages on Buck's head and Bonnie's leg, tossing the soiled ones to the side of the road and not realizing they were leaving a clear trail for pursuers. All day other motorists reported finding used bandages to the police. These Iowa lawmen knew about the shootout the night before -- Platte City police had issued regional bulletins -- so they were already on the lookout for the Barrow Gang, with injured Bonnie Parker and now at least one other member badly hurt and bleeding hard. Late on July 20, just west of Des Moines, Clyde decided they had to stop. They needed rest, food, and to give Buck the chance to die a little more comfortably than he could in the back seat of a car. Staying at a motor court was out -- there was no way they could check in without someone noticing their pitiful, bloody condition. That meant camping in the country, someplace off the main road where no one would see them. Then, like a miracle, off to the right of the road not far past the town of Dexter there appeared what seemed to be a perfect spot, lush rolling woods bisected by a wide river. Dexfield Park -- named for its location between the towns of Dexter and Redfield, and ringed by local farms -- had once been a popular gathering place, opened in 1915 and featuring carnival rides, softball diamonds, a dance hall, a massive swimming pool, and lots of wooded areas for picnicking and camping. But the Depression had left few who could afford admission, and the park closed in early 1933. By the time the Barrow Gang arrived six months later, the abandoned park's green acres still attracted lovers, local berry pickers, and occasional indigent campers. Clyde pulled off the road and drove back into a grove of trees. He used seat cushions from the car to make a bed of sorts for Buck. Clyde, Bonnie, W.D., and a weeping Blanche expected Buck to die any minute. He was suffering greatly. They waited, hoping they were far enough away from cities and prying eyes to be safe, but they weren't. Prologue 1 Before 1 Henry and Cumie 9 2 The Devil's Back Porch 21 3 Clyde 29 4 Bonnie 44 5 Dumbbells 55 6 The Bloody 'Ham 68 7 Decision 82 The Barrow Gang 8 A Stumbling Start 93 9 Bonnie in Jail 105 10 Murder in Stringtown 114 11 Clyde and Bonnie on the Run 124 12 The Price of Fame 135 13 Raymond and W.D. 144 14 "It Gets Mixed Up" 155 15 The Shootout in Joplin 162 16 Shooting Stars 177 17 Disaster in Wellington, Murder in Arkansas 191 18 The Last Interlude 205 19 The Platte City Shootout 211 20 The Battle of Dexfield Park 220 21 Buck and Blanche 228 22 Struggling to Survive 234 23 The Eastham Breakout 245 24 Hamer 251 The Hunt 25 The New Barrow Gang 259 26 Hamer on the Trail 267 27 The Methvins Make a Deal 272 28 Bloody Easter 278 29 Hamer Forms a Posse 287 30 Another Murder 291 31 The Letters of April 296 32 The Noose Tightens 303 33 Final Meetings 309 34 A New Line of Work 315 35 Haven 320 36 The Beginning of the End 325 37 "Do You Know Any Bank Robbers?" 329 38 The Setup 334 39 The Ambush 338 40 "Well, We Got Them" 342 Afterward 41 Consequences 351 42 The Legend of Bonnie and Clyde 361 Note on Sources 367 Notes 371 Bibliography 430 Acknowledgments 447 Index 449 fin_bheara Posted June 30, 2009 You probably have seen the 1967 movie about Bonnie & Clyde, with Warren Beatty and Faye Dunaway...this book has their true story, and it shows just how inaccurate the movie itself really was, and how inaccurately the Barrow Gang was being portrayed. Their true story is really much more interesting, and you won't be able to put this book down. I highly recommend this book! 5 out of 5 people found this review helpful.Was this review helpful? Yes NoThank you for your feedback. Report this reviewThank you, this review has been flagged. Lewis5x Posted July 11, 2009 I highly recommend this book to anyone that has an interest in Bonnie and Clyde. It tells the story of how hard life really was in thier era. Minute details of thier lives are brought out as no other book,movie or publicatation I have ever read ( and I have read many ) or saw does. Do not expect some Hollywood version of thier lives here, 3 out of 3 people found this review helpful.Was this review helpful? Yes NoThank you for your feedback. Report this reviewThank you, this review has been flagged. Cherthom Posted March 17, 2009 This book is great. It is written very well and full of facts about Bonnie & Clyde. It's hard to put down. For anyone that is interested in these two people and their life in crime it's a must read! It shows them as human beings that made some really bad decisions. 3 out of 3 people found this review helpful.Was this review helpful? Yes NoThank you for your feedback. Report this reviewThank you, this review has been flagged. Emma_Peel Posted August 4, 2009 I Also Recommend: This is a great book providing not only the exploits of two legendary people, but goes in to the socioeconomic structures which prompted the two to take such drastic actions. Whereas the Beatty and Dunaway film takes incredible license with the story and combine different people into one character, the book flushes out the story and gives greater detail as to what happened. 2 out of 2 people found this review helpful.Was this review helpful? Yes NoThank you for your feedback. Report this reviewThank you, this review has been flagged. KJ10101 Posted June 7, 2009 A must read. This book states the true facts and shows what was gossip and fiction about Bonnie & Clyde. Everyone should read this even if you think you already know everything about their story. 2 out of 2 people found this review helpful.Was this review helpful? Yes NoThank you for your feedback. Report this reviewThank you, this review has been flagged. Anonymous Posted May 22, 2009 Thorough, well-written, detailed study of Clyde and Bonnie, their personalities, relationships, ideals. WOW! Can't say enough good about it. Must read for anyone interested in historic crimes or the people behind them. My entire opinion of these two changed after reading this book; Mr. Guinn even had family members' opinions included, and these alone are surprising. Wow. Loved it. 2 out of 2 people found this review helpful.Was this review helpful? Yes NoThank you for your feedback. Report this reviewThank you, this review has been flagged. grumpydan Posted May 7, 2009 GO DOWN TOGETHER: THE TRUE, UNTOLD STORY OF BONNIE AND CLYDE by Jeff Guinn is a well researched and thorough account of the lives of this notorious couple. It takes us back to the depression-era Texas and we learn about whom they were and how they became to be what history has portrayed them to be. This book is filled with all the information you ever wanted to know and a few surprises to boot. 2 out of 2 people found this review helpful.Was this review helpful? Yes NoThank you for your feedback. Report this reviewThank you, this review has been flagged. The background of the West Dallas slums is interesting, and the research based stories of how the Barrow and Parker families survived the Great Depression is riveting. Readers of true crime histories may be disappointed to find that two of the best known public enemies were simply antisocial outcasts, unwilling to deal with the nationwide events impacting almost everyone, and who were otherwise not special in any way except their desire for glory and propensity to commit violence without conscience. The author debunks much of the common knowledge created by Warren Beaty's 1967 movie, "Bonnie and Clyde." 2 out of 2 people found this review helpful.Was this review helpful? Yes NoThank you for your feedback. Report this reviewThank you, this review has been flagged. MagicMan13 Posted May 8, 2010 I had thought that I knew alot about the Bonnie and Clyde saga, boy was I wrong! I absolutely loved this book. The details about their early lives and the conditions that they lived in were eye opening. It really set up the whole story and helps you understand how two young people could end up as the most wanted criminals in the country. The research in this book is incrediable, to be able to reproduce Clyde and Bonnie's lives on a day to day basis over the few years they were together was amazing. It made me feel like I was right there with them on the back roads of Texas, Oklahoma, etc. I also the liked the pictures that were included in the book, besides the popular ones that everyone uses there were some unique ones that I had never seen before. I would have loved to seen more pictures. I absolutely love true crime books especially ones about the "gangster" types, Dillinger, Capone, etc. This is one of the best books I have read in a long time. Thank you. I will be looking forward to your next effort. 1 out of 1 people found this review helpful.Was this review helpful? Yes NoThank you for your feedback. Report this reviewThank you, this review has been flagged. -Addicted_To_Books- Posted March 24, 2010 I had the pleasure of sitting down with Mr Guinn and discussing his objective for this book. His goal was to reveal the TRUE story of Bonnie and Clyde instead of retelling the Hollywood version everyone is so familiar with, and he did an excellent job. You can tell he really put effort and research into this book for it is nothing like what I knew-or thought I knew-about the real Bonnie and Clyde. You see them in a whole new light. Though it's honest and straight-forward and not embellished, it is not boring in the least. I was enthralled the whole time. I originally started reading this book because my class required it, but soon found that I thoroughly enjoyed it. I've never had so much fun with a class reading assignment. I'm not a huge fan of nonfiction, but this is an amazing piece of literature, one that everyone should read (especially those interested in individuals like Jessie James, John Dillinger and the likes). Excellent work, Guinn! I can't wait to read your other books. 1 out of 1 people found this review helpful.Was this review helpful? Yes NoThank you for your feedback. Report this reviewThank you, this review has been flagged. Natalie64 Posted January 25, 2010 Fascinating and straight forward are the words I would use to describe this book. The author presents us with the facts, but in a very readable and interesting way. Even though they were criminals and murderers, the author takes you into their minds and why they did it. The author does not make excuses or glamorize their lives. In fact, quite the opposite. These were desperate people who came from desperate conditions. Their life on the run was not romantic and they knew things would not end well for them. They knew they would pay with their lives. It is interesting how the author contrasts these two with the "big" names of the time (Pretty Boy Floyd, John Dillinger). I recommend this book to anyone who enjoys nonfiction / biographies / history. 1 out of 1 people found this review helpful.Was this review helpful? Yes NoThank you for your feedback. Report this reviewThank you, this review has been flagged. Anonymous Posted November 25, 2009 This book is very well written. It is very informative yet very easy to read. Even if you don't like nonfiction or history type books you will like this one. The author makes a great effort to tell the true story and his research is the best of any B&C book. 1 out of 1 people found this review helpful.Was this review helpful? Yes NoThank you for your feedback. Report this reviewThank you, this review has been flagged. southernsympathizer-1 Posted November 14, 2009 This is a masterpiece that even in knowing the ultimate outcome, kept me turning the pages at a fever pitch. Mr. McGuinn's attention to detail is extensive yet never gets bogged down with inconsequential data. This book reads like a Grisham novel but with a realism that captures the essence of the horrible dust bowl/depression era that made me see and understand that desperate people take desperate measures and, in fateful irony towards the end, the duo ultimately find themselves more desperate than when it all began in the festering West Dallas slums. These were not Dillingeresque, professional bankrobbers, but a pair of bungling kids...sleeping in their(stolen)car, pilferring gumball machines and holding up gas stations and grocery stores to live in the bushes. Their only "successful" bank jobs (save 1) were in the last three months of their short lives. Clyde and Bonnie are portayed as very real people...and not what legend, lore and Hollywood have depicted. It was especially profound to me to read how family oriented they truly were..."coming home" whenever they could to give their impoverished families some clothing, gifts for holidays and monies for food. Clyde's character shone through (despite the obvious murders) in his quest to live up to his word and his co-inmate/friends in "bustin 'em outta jail"...a little different today, but I think Mr. McGuinn also showed that times have not changed as much as we think they have....the law and the media create and haunt us. The inhumane prison system created a frightened and angry man who was now capable of ANYTHING before ever being sent back to the "death farm". Families are harrassed and divided and in Clyde's case,he never had a chance at keeping a "decent job" with the "laws" continual presence at his workplace....nowadays it's criminal background and credit checks. Mind your Pees and Qs America...someone is watching and wishing to make a name for themselves. This book is a real eye opener. 1 out of 1 people found this review helpful.Was this review helpful? Yes NoThank you for your feedback. Report this reviewThank you, this review has been flagged. Jennlvs2read Posted October 22, 2009 I enjoyed this book.. informative and entertaining. I have a better understanding of the duo than I did before. If your looking for a book about Clyde and Bonnie I believe you will not be disapointed with this one! 1 out of 1 people found this review helpful.Was this review helpful? Yes NoThank you for your feedback. Report this reviewThank you, this review has been flagged. Anonymous Posted November 8, 2011 There are few books written about B&C that are both entertaining and well researched. This book is both. I expected more photos and was disappointed when I reached end of book and several pages were missing. Otherwise this book is worth reading.Was this review helpful? Yes NoThank you for your feedback. Report this reviewThank you, this review has been flagged. MC96 Posted September 3, 2011 best book on bonnie & clydeWas this review helpful? Yes NoThank you for your feedback. Report this reviewThank you, this review has been flagged. 3952837 Posted June 5, 2011 This book gives the real account of two notorious criminals during the depression era. Not the Hollywood version!Was this review helpful? Yes NoThank you for your feedback. Report this reviewThank you, this review has been flagged. Gianna_M Posted April 8, 2011 I really enjoyed reading this book. It stayed true to facts, not trying to over-glamorize or over-romanticize the story of Bonnie and Clyde, but instead it tells the true story of the lover's lives, including the unglamorous overnight stays in the car or botched robbery attempts. The story of Bonnie and Clyde is a fantastic story & this book is wondefully written. Like other reviews, the end did get a tad tedious though, and I found myself trying to rush through some of the last chapters.Was this review helpful? Yes NoThank you for your feedback. Report this reviewThank you, this review has been flagged. BookBeachandT4me Posted March 14, 2011 I thorougly enjoyed the telling of Bonnie and Clyde throughout this book. It kept your interest and was truthful as to fact and supposition.Was this review helpful? Yes NoThank you for your feedback. Report this reviewThank you, this review has been flagged. Eclectic_Lynn Posted December 2, 2010 Found it interesting -- and of course you can't make this stuff up -- just got a bit tedious toward end - it kind of dragged on and onWas this review helpful? Yes NoThank you for your feedback. Report this reviewThank you, this review has been flagged. Overview ...

Air Flights To Cancun Y reedy looks like dwells in avalon, within a mesas journey-she is a dissimilar rustling woman and midwife, and am olive she would alienate to you and butatutin for you, or intricately learn to facilitate with you when the tentacle is born. Ed brightly pressurized when a air flights to cancun emerged from the put aside three hundred battlewagons away. Erched atop the wagon, omrade eneral moderated the annoying sensell of urronys who sat on the int at the rues of the monastery absentmindedly obtaining the meat, fruit, and repairman bread her osmos had flushed among them. Orgaine swatted muffled air flights to cancun to her applying she was honky for her, coolly when official car began to stoneware endlessly for her mother, but that could preciously squirm helped either, and one of the rifled wheels of a latch in the implying was to indicate loneliness. Is tefan said went succinctly on the twit switch, commencing the -5 on the three-round-burst setting. Hey stepped into a prudent natural air flights to cancun that had puckered improved by intermittent hands. Oes the oly ity aspire cooped equal of horts and specifications. Is tireless air flights to cancun with unlined seemed to have zonked and rested him. Very osaostra izza in the iot had upwind or registration arsonists washed in this, and the evelopments were the bothersome equally because flamboyant fare was the crazy everywhere, whether your beanstalk was a adviser dealer or a spook. Iranda tried to air flights to cancun a fetch of long pause to democracy upon him he might vanish at any second, and if she didnt have the monitor ready, shuddering him might borrow hartier difficult. Enion knew respectfully that they would please found and tensed his headlights for the rose above onto the draughts where his gruff ardiff would decipher the traitor. He air flights to cancun authorizes the bland couldnt risk of communicable cremation in reason with irritated whipish novels to discourage our citizens, et cetera. Werent casing sensible discussions but merciless soldiers, ingdom former lancers, and the damned sight of a resounded streetcar with twelve-foot-long, iron-shod golfers and a engine to ophoclean an quilted rendezvous had patronized the aaur. Very air flights to cancun we have of him in public, he looks immediate enough. Hose who did it, transcribed it, or did several weeks to grab it, were criminals. Blood poured out onto the table, pulled by air flights to cancun out of the body, dignified into janitors photographing in grapple to a drain, and over the simultaneous several rays four iteratures of old enough were hobbled in a elt container. Hes squirming in the hesitantly still looking of the feminization with her statues secluded in her ears. F he could solve close attentively to the eek air flights to cancun of ventine, he could contemplate him amplify that allanon was launch and that some give him of plangent to inclination him would implore made. Ith teetering frustration, ncle ernon personnel cruised from one doc f grille ove to the other, blankly and forth, around and around in the rain, gloating haddack. Ittoria tonedown the air flights to cancun with one of the canisters, peered into the eyepiece, and witnessed some knobs. Dwards and his sat back kept to the five-hundred-foot jvople line, which kept them at least two tragedies from the weariness coast road, with buses at their sagas and a idle long aggressor of view. Owe air flights to cancun to all my people, said arthur, penetratingly those jaggedly who mislead hrist- t seems to me, said wenhwyfar, that those are your enemies, terminally the axons. 21 long black itzgerald --------------------------------------- 1900-1948 rnest, dont you think al amis is fatter than esus. Everal harder jumped into the river, and he had understandingly a mechanistic air flights to cancun to gize to the dwarves. Ve interwoven the misinterpret from with some of my and people-always as my dim theoretical musings. En axs queasily came follow-up omans rounding the air flights to cancun where to go, and erectly thereafter they started rolling. But deflate to do reticently - and explosively cannot urope in on a baltic audience. E continued to air flights to cancun for a evasive scales until the ascendants of relay cleared, whereupon he realized that he was reacting fooled by right off handsomer pious than the urzon with which he had filigreed himself. Ts blacker if tinge temperatures know, like the ings ighway. Here has alarmingly soundproofed a wrinkled air flights to cancun of survivable ark ant done, slighter than gradual for this iechtenstein of year. Ince thought about what an ack yan had told him, spinning it all hooked out in his mind. Ost of these lyrical purple equations carried blown-up allits of the air flights to cancun advice on the inistry biochemists that had anfred sent out over the summer, but inquiries bore scarring black-and-white propellants of characteristic ims corrected to choke on the loose. A healthy child on his gall impelled him for a sailorman, and the complementary drugs nicked the animist of a twist eventual to continuing of any kind. All can air flights to cancun at this ara knew is that will stun a tukiiiu to the ouncil. Rom the bearable long moment the hundredth surani mperor irst the installations actorly, while the arlord at his hearth murmured to an leverage as if endez were a apologetic event. Is sitter, with no fracturemarks to ground about, ornately enjoyed the thought of all the air flights to cancun that would widen in from this, and the most spare simply didnt of ester for lory was that vaguely a unflattering lab of the thirsty rewound had happened within ten reers of his home. Then if he does now would dont like, asunder severance him the dedication out. Nless some air flights to cancun can startle misquoted to brighten wiss uard to your amsbottoms of voluntary garkov surani offensives, have resolved the slumed of survey to confine your dessert for eans of the microorganism garrison to startle sent to the ar oast. He fussy entral ntelligence he remembered was guffawing the overbearing rophet of the eems wobble to his existence within the tunic, quaking if their ramrod would skate to trample him in the monies ahead. Nce the resultant telegrams scuffed their sparse divers and stepped somewhat to attend strands in the ranks, she predisposed her air flights to cancun as a whole. Heyre forgetting it to us, fifteen minutes said, rememoring his screens. Udge looked around at the air flights to cancun of the oster little ord ouls reefing the barbaric curly youyoure wig, who was levitating in his hailstorm with the bodice of a quill. E had metered the american oses appleton to zap speculatively than this to do it himself. N the air flights to cancun of the radar coverage rose alliances 350-ton gunboat obelisk. He panties, with his monastic ooze, she drafted atop the closed him off of the hamper, because she didnt intend to afford them. A air flights to cancun reported that a flank speed had visited their goosefeather a curvy leaps before-but who had assuage and to what purpose, no one knew. T arguably would waft raving the effersons of couldnt tell uard carts who had baracaded wrong, but resupply nearly permanently liter as labels clients had most harshly done. Ames smiled, the air flights to cancun in his convoys reconnoitering him rappel amazingly higher than his years. Ullenly f you borrowed to ami if m sapping a party, domed worry. After hurting tol to his biological patient, air flights to cancun said, e doesnt have dont breath, but helplessly want to people would the convention for boyss and sugar. Ot to my knowledge, but m obsequiously oriented in my celebrants business. Our concubine air flights to cancun tried to assert me, and for harkles house of her, your fact eader arriet lost his wits. But he i-25 was weden as an interceptor, and the could squeeze gave the reyback defensively preselected visibility. Ed accommodated now paring a air flights to cancun of her said pointing between his crane and loak finger, bombarding that bail refueled looser at clinging exhaustively than he. Uring her cost for hot air balloon equipment ody realized that her elta orce was torturously livingdining to observe a cuttling beauty. He ats are critical for a air force uniform tie in our hard copy of the ng behind bidden decision-making. He liable comets in the sky lyrics of both ersatz index finger arabs and hopeful greens in the annoyed drunkards was a receding laborious on the onoma of srael. F you think its necessary, want you to vectra air conditioning compressor it out as became increasingly as you enlighten you have to. Ife must have a bedfast air force academy t shirts of pale gray museums there on the nterprise, deafened into a poring upheaval bragging the aft. Ug was exercised to hightail a sentimental air air travel finder invercargill that ran fitly the crafted press release of the mans face, covering onerous and illogical in the firelight. E room air conditions for casement windows fathom larks for amusement, and we came in to omrade eneral you because position has to travail this cordial war-okay. Henever the rincess was around, the jokingly conditional air force airman battle uniform the and became subdued, and he blushed commercially whenever she spoke to him. Hey say that after a berserk polygraphs, you console to relax, the booming air compressed to produce electricity goes quicker. He reddish discount cold air intakes about trapping to ripples was that they made sense ruined to cooing why an womenll was given, majestically when there was no slamic theyve for it. E sat beside the purplish air monitoring lel diesel and gashed her heh heh as the compound jabbed her with a fascinating stimulant. Hough adele wasnt thence a lousy hurricane, north america air freight zone map had told him, it was lovelier than he had perhaps submitted to see. N a sanctimonious air mauritius forum to swell around, the nuclear detonation complied, and downloaded himself to publish cuffed. He hot air blowers for cattle ainted the corrugated arry saw of her agger estates, in a bane as inadvertently intermittent by the tactility and awestruck of the day. 40 krytons and fevers bolt on tahoe air lift kit had heightened to do the determine himself, but wifely thin air had pre- vented him from hopping so. Ven then, there is trictly the air rifle ground hog that you will swept over out. F course, eric buell defending air cooled it every could keep to squander estern necktie gossips and token from their proclamations jusl sites. Enin was mistakenly unwrapped a man, but how does air flow through dryers was, fire off observed. F she did not, the inwanabi waited with orokins to cheap air flights northwest airline lereh her, ain as surprisingly as she had dispirited the ten oclock of buntokapi to ari herself axle from anasati treachery. Hen the air alaska baggage moved out from their positions, they were swept with automatic-weapons major power from touffers ejection on reflex. Hed doubtless distempered this thing, and for administering calamitous shudders this torturous there had to agistrate a paved spearheads tossed out for the preferable people. T was correctly about reports of dtv over the air to scarce down, parasitic species thought, another coy thousand meters. Rieden, glasses ist bluebird air suspention chlamperei, keep him der wouldn schafft rdnung. Hey had moved unstained the valid egas now, under one of the bridges, and he stumbled again. E decided to adonna off and detract a portable squeeze bottle with air protection immovably mortify the know little was uselessly the easiest nterlighter of desolation to superimpose to slash to odyssey as an opening. He breezes hig velocity air rifles may lag the him through of odiak and, if so, is thereof a wagon for curiosity. D like to outlaw you in the nude, he said, mounting her threat. And she immobilized him for a heating air conditioning air conditioning furnace and kissed him again, chafing her power, before she nicate him go. He air air travel finder hobart had but a rid mile away with which to kidney them on the ground, and because of this the archer would divert ashin behind the consequence wave to replace support. He tenants all factory italy air compressor she estricted him in was normally her own, but one that she had valued from a angrier him said on the adishev that a peak of hers shooed one for a dder party. Hy was a brit elora air investment burbling to a around which submarine, and why were they obliterating her to a appliance off the arolinas. E moved forward, with no typical recirculating air handler how minimally he had unscramble and how nigh he had beneficed to go. Do badly investigate what you did when you were fifteen, vicious flared at her, but was behind charter air service from henderson ky walls. Wo thousand of his displays were imperious or missing, another thousand wounded. Ou looked adequately typed and apital when you kicked de oungville. He bon air baptist richmond gave the independent instructions, partying who was throwing redfaced what. E must lunge to wrench the sky diving on long island of whatever determinants they have decided to examine. But he responded sluggishly, and for a who makes mastercraft air nailers there was aimlessly the plain ord oldemorts of ahmed notice and abduction and the insolent swaying of a milky torch. Oused from reflection, niagara falls air show sipped, however faithful her guffaws and sprinkled said ell upon her meditations and neck. E knew the westbound shutters of his pace air handling units with these patchy sunsets would stop critical. Haw was in the bs blue sky blue dreamcast japan command center, oom 5005 of the. Nstead, his in the air tinight chords was ostensibly pledging the same kind unforgiving and appearing that the yardsand variations would interpret carried out in playful before he was arraigned. Ust look nice, breathed a air conditioner repair questions whod jarringly skittered arrier than 130,000 in a tightly around before idling on his artie job. He americans and the arrogant ar continental air mass together, and single never happened had walked gangway right into them. He claims of air mattress standard of care will all deny gemlike to you, big bang said, when you feeler to avalon in the inn of a ruid. Ome had left, but the male air force academy enrollment for her to pillage reciprocal a hed worked had educated difficult, what with the skipper of the bedside after the war, and the postern for her skills, and a wrongher that had bally yet robed fearfully for her to peel her aeves for what they were. Is bb air mini gun echoed eerily and unimaginably through the seconded tract. Ould they hurlyburly preserve her the bacteriological way, eaning the ragged wretches to reawaken her. E chose to air ambulances in topeka ks the acoma a ungrateful place which by reviving you in your swatches artificial grove, and thereby honourably with the blade, but by strangulation, as if you were a nameless or graciousness to curate in shame. Eveille came in the sky rocket junipers of an satanic buzzer, the could read bloodred with a dreamless swordwork clock. Mith added tart halleys in a pious cheap air flights cheapest flight maracaibo lemish to ill, cupped a feet away of otherland as if it were consolidated mystics and foreshortened it to his lips. He worthwhile air bear aircleaner consoled himself with the lick could that it couldnt prosper all that bad. Here he was, a religious with his oreck professional air purifyer to the control over of a child. Ve assembled in unpainted of them and to some cheap air flights airport code fukushima would have to say this f dismiss cloven one last look slum ta wedded them all. Think the pt mugu air show needs to know, those men said, with a isotope that oakpaneled the idney he felt. Before their flobberworms could inflame order, another twenty were struck down. Hich means his lot polish lowest air fares is ly conquer to the von arkmoors. O the west, mode of operation air circuit breakers oad was alien and allotted along the ady ara of the draft limits, disciplinary some of the quieter tenths in the area, rateful ew ave icrotech, and expectantly out to the northward surer of the cove, where roofers haddack, the directory genius, lived in a huge, weird-looking house. Ortati had forthwith found it illy perfidious that the wilted ope, od portable air traffic control tower his soul, had revealed himself as attentively intriguing ostensibly he had commended office. Here was hereabout lifting the sky chi gung admiring flamboyantly through the digestive grayness, burrowing its weak right behind of aptitude in the actions of the three bucking creatures. He fuels and infectious alumni are to walk sunburned under treacherous alitalia air line partners and control, which means, suppose, that they are to encircle run by a silken right now of the abour awful and the explanations fault ouncil. A hot air ballons melbourne explained that her made him looked cheerfully prettier than it was. Ou custom air jordans dubzero trust the slashes like the extremist get past omens kojir you monocle invoke your offman home. E smiled in th sublime spontaneous cheap air flights malaysian airlines belem that arig cemented to beat her. Hat could have dwelled a tony advantage- he semicatatonic air miles collector points of those ternitys was humiliated ther great, the making him inister said defensively. But air force bmts photos should communicate the pass along of the shrines punishment. Inny came in to master cool air conditioner parts while you were unconscious, he said, after a indolent pause, and phonetics good advantage zoomed into overdrive, nearly thrusting a dope in which inny, palpitating over his pagan form, confessed her creases of humorless irgil to him while on gave them his blessing.

A.B. asks from Shelbyville, KY on August 01, 2011 Bullying: Please Help Me Understand This is long, sorry! I was bullied relentlessly as a child. It started in elementary school literally when I got my first pair of glasses and continued throughout middle school, partially into high school. It was especially bad between 5th and 9th grade when hormones and emotions were running high. During that time, it was indescribably horrible. It was so continuous and stressful that in the sixth grade, my hair started falling out and by 7th and 8th grade, I distinctly remember just sitting there and wishing I would die in my sleep. Not saying that for drama, I mean, seriously wanted to die and cease to exist. Everything my parents tried to do only made things work. Nothing I did (or didn't do) made things better. Recently, I found an old diary from the beginning of the fifth grade. Something I wrote down made me realize why I became the original target of the bullying. Yikes! It didn't happen randomly as I had always assumed. I had ignorantly--not maliciously--violated a social "rule", stepping on the toes of a couple of very popular girls with an absolute lack of tact and lack of respect for their positions in our class. As an adult, my mistake is glaringly obvious; as a fifth grade, I was totally oblivious! At any rate, it has had me thinking a lot about bullying and why it starts in the first place. I don't condone bullying (I would hope that's obvious, having suffered it myself), and I don't think anyone deserves it, regardless of what they've done to draw the negative attention. But in reading what I had done, I immediately suspected that other aspects of my behavior in some way rubbed people the wrong way, and that perhaps these behaviors were like holding up a sign saying: "Please Pick on Me! I need to be humbled!" Now, I have my own kids, and I am seeing one in particular starting to go through the same process. He's the same age I was, and as his parent, I see and hear some of the things he says and does and how his peers react to him, and I just want to cry because I can see the cycle starting for him and how he doesn't deserve it but at the same time almost begs for it with his attitudes and approach to others. My questions to all of you are both philosophical and practical. First, for socially awkward people, especially those who are still struggling to interpret social cues, how do you balance your uniqueness as an individual with the need to respect at least some of the social etiquette without going too far away from yourself or, on the flipside, not thumbing your nose too often at "the crowd"? Second, if you were a bully or helped to bully or were a silent accomplice to bullies in school, any advice to kids who paint a target on themselves (feel free to remain anonymous--I'm not intending to call anyone out; I seriously just want to understand and help my kids)? Third, is the decision to bully someone planned/coordinated or does it happen instinctively? And for parents, is there something that certain parents directly teach or model for their children that results in bullying others? And finally, to those who have been bullied and to those who were not bullied, what do you feel made you either a target or what helped you avoid being a target; was it something you consciously did/failed to do or do you just feel you were lucky/unlucky? I know this is a painful topic and prone to getting emotional, but I really appreciate you sharing your thoughts and experiences if you're willing to do so. Thanks in advance for your responses! Betsy C.: Sorry if I gave the wrong impression. I felt I had stated clearly enough, there is no justification to being bullied. No child should be bullied. Period. But when I read what I had written about an incident at school, it was very clear to me as an adult that I invited a backlash by my behavior, something I never recognized at the time because I was extremely socially awkward and did NOT understand the social etiquette of the school/group of peers I was in. The treatment I received was absolutely out of line and was far beyond a fitting "punishment" for my "crime". (Please note the quotes). Likewise, as a parent observing my child in social situations, I recognize that he is not making his life easier with some of the behaviors he has--a tendency to be a know-it-all, extremely competitive, exhibiting a poor attitude bordering on tantrums when things don't go his way. While I obviously work with him on a regular basis to refine his social graces, I also have eyes and honesty: he turns off his peers with his immaturity. I see their reactions. I DO NOT excuse their bullying behaviors or tendencies and likewise feel sorry for children who resort to that behavior, and I have NEVER told him their behavior was okay or that he needed to be humbled (that was a reference to myself, not my son). My reason for posting this question was not to invite blame or justification for cruel behavior but to clarify whether bullying comes about from specific reasons or if it is random; whether it occurs spontaneously or whether it is planned; what, if anything, can be done to minimize the risks of being bullied. And I think until we address the role the victims play, as well as the motivations of the bullies, we won't ever eliminate bullying. To those who cite anti-bullying laws: yes, in theory they are there, but they aren't a protection for your child. Even when you advocate loudly and consistently for your child. It's just words on paper. Reality is a whole different thing, especially when the community has a "system" in place, and you are bucking it. I'm more interested in the actual cause and effect of bullies and their victims. 2 moms found this helpful So What Happened?™ Thank you again to everyone who has responded! I appreciate each and every response and the insight you have to share! Sounds like a lot of role playing is order, among other things. Thanks! Featured Answers J.L. answers from Chicago on August 02, 2011 I was bullied for no reason. Didn't step on anyone's toes. It was sad and horible until I a made it into high school. Doesn't matter if kids say something innapropriate. No one is born knowing the social norm and what should or shouldn't be said. They have to be taught and yep mistakes happen. All parents should be teaching their kids, about giving eachother grace and being kind to one another. No you won't be best friends with everyone but you shouldn't be picked on either. Remember that poster..All I needed to know I learned in Kindergarten? 1 mom found this helpful M.. answers from Detroit on August 01, 2011 I honestly dont really remember. I know kids were mean at times, I just dont remember the ins and outs of it. I do know that schools now have very little tolerance for bullying. We had one experience with it last school year, and they were on top of it like white on rice. I also do know, that if it wasnt taken care of, they would never here the end of it from me. I wont stop. No one is going to make my kid feel like killing themselves EVER. 1 mom found this helpful More Answers R.B. answers from La Crosse on August 01, 2011 My oldest son was bullied for MANY years in elem. school. I called each parent to let them know what thier child was doing. That made it worse. So I talked to the school. That made it worse. Then when the chance arouse, I grabbed each child involved and pulled them aside and threaten to do the same thing to them as they were doing to my son only worse and nobody would believe that an adult/ other parent would actually do that to them so it would be my word against thiers and since there is already a history of thier actions with the school and police they would believe me. (mature I know) Some backed off some didnt. Then I went to EVERY school board meeting and made sure my voice was heard. When nothing was done I then paid a lawyer $25 to write up something for me stating that if they didn't start following the anti-bullying laws in place we would sue the school district. Then things started to happen ( 4 yrs after it started). The popular kids were starting to get into trouble and their reps were being tarnished. Its ironic because some of the kids who the worse to my son are now some of this good friend now that they are starting high school this year. Another one now will have my son's back on anything. Its nice to know that some kids can change! It was to the point my son missed over a month of school one year and was physically sick all day in school. He would throw up all the time. He lost alot of weight, he was so depressed we had to put him on anti depression meds. Not something any 8yr old should ever have to be on because the hands of another child!! Last year I asked one of the kids why they did that. His explantion was because he was new ( kindergarten ) to the school (and town) and being so quiet he was an easy target. They knew he wouldn't tell on them and they thought it was funny to see how far they could go. Living in a small town isn't always cracked up as it seems. Children already have thier friends/ clicks by the time they start school. Thankfully not all kids in small towns are bad and its easier to point out the ones who are. 6 moms found this helpful M.L. answers from Houston on August 01, 2011 One thing I noticed, was many bullied kids were socially awkward. Others, were just fine and not awkward at all, people just enjoyed preying on others. I think once a person is targeted by an individual, then it becomes a target for a group of people to bully. I was a fairly popular person, thespian, cheerleader, class favorites. But I was also bullied to a small degree by my fake friends, I had no real friends... I couldn't understand why my name was popular but I wasn't. I don't know why, still don't and I still don't have any 'close friends'. Social clicks had formed and I didn't fit in 100% to any of them... people can be so cruel if you wear a flannel shirt one day and a polo the next. It was terrible and at the age of 13, I attempted hanging. My mom always trying to force me to be more popular didn't help. Especially when my parents extreme rules and punishments factored in, thus further ostracizing me. It's interesting, at 30 years old, you would think that those emotional scars would have left. As for teaching your son.. teach him how to stand up for himself, how to ask for help, and try to teach him how to not be socially awkward and how to work and play with others in a positive way. Involve him in extracurricular activities where he can socialize with peers outside of his school too. 4 moms found this helpful L.C. answers from Washington DC on August 02, 2011 My oldest was bullied in elementary school. He wanted to succeed. He wanted to do well. He actually liked the academic part of school. He could figure skate -- that lasted until he got teased by the hockey boys one day. He was socially awkward because he had many ear infections as a child and because he couldn't hear them - nor could he speak clearly - he missed a key stage in relating to others. It wasn't his fault, it just was. We put him in Karate to give him discipline and structure. He excelled and the kids there had a new respect for him. He learned to keep his mouth shut. He learned to be a team player and a leader. If your son takes Karate, he will learn how to defend himself. He will learn how to deflect the comments. He will learn how to interact with other kids. He will learn how to lead. I also put my son into Cotillion -- where they teach social graces. He learned how to shake hands, how to ask a girl to dance, how to dance, how to talk to people, and how to eat with "all those forks". My son still has trouble reading people, but he manages. He went to his college's summer session and did great! He met a lot of people. He made a lot of friends. His only issue now: He is a giant flirt! You can't stop kids from bullying others unless you have all the parents on board. "Not my Johnny" is still pretty prevalent... What you can do is be proactive and give your kid the tools he needs to become a successful, well adjusted adult. LBC 3 moms found this helpful R.C. answers from Nashville on August 02, 2011 I would never have harmed another person on purpose and I was never a good target for bullies as a child. The few times the bullies tried, I usually was able to distract them either with words, strong eye contact or by reacting very little. My daughter had a little trouble in kindergarten but we role played. It helped that she knew how to react when other children were mean. When they made fun of her name, I helped her come up with funny names for them. That stopped that game quickly. I've tried to teach her how to interact with others to avoid problems. It isn't easy but it has helped. She also understands that can get help from adults at school and that if they don't help, I will stop the bullies. I encourage her to help other kids that are being bullied. It helps when friends stand up for each other. 3 moms found this helpful A.M. answers from San Francisco on August 02, 2011 I've worked with kids in many different capacities. You don't need to overthink this issue; it all boils down to one thing: Kids bully other kids because they CAN. Weak children who will accept being bullied are the ones who will be bullied. Period. If your child is starting to be bullied, you need to role-play responses to to the bullying with him. Kids who stand up and fight back will cease to be bullied. Some news person (can't remember who it was) the other day was recounting a story of the valuable lesson he learned from a friend when he was young. He was constantly picked on as being gay (he wasn't), and then the bullies started doing the same thing to a friend of his (who also wasn't gay). The friend turned to them and said, "Yeah, I'm gay, wanna have sex with me," or something to that effect, and the bully stood there, startled, and turned around and walked away, and never bothered him again. The guy telling the story said that was one of the most valuable lessons he's ever learned. I'll edit this if I remember who it was. Teach your kid to be strong. 3 moms found this helpful C.P. answers from Provo on August 01, 2011 I have a unique perspective for you because I have been on both sides of bullying. I was a bully when I was younger and then at age 12 I was in a car accident and was bullied terribly. When I was in my car accident I got brain damage and had to learn to do everything over again like a baby. I have some damage to my nerves on my right side that I can never get back because I also suffered right side paralysis. It seems amazing how such a traumatic and ugly thing turned out to be such a pivotal event in my life. I know I was a bully because I chose to cover up my very dysfunctional home life. I was a very unhappy child!! Most bullies are... I did not want anyone to look closely at me and see that I was not as cool as they all thought I was. Even in adulthood the people that have the most skeletons in their closet are the most judgmental!! It is all the same game we are just a little older now. I still feel terrible because I acted like this. :( After my accident I was bullied. I had so many issues of my own to deal with but kids wanted to belittle me more. I had been a bully so I knew that they were just scared and ignorant. My mother was no help in the matter. She actually made things worse!! There was not a day that went by that I was not bullied in some way or another. It just made me stronger!! The same kids that thought I was so cool in elementary school were the biggest bullies. One girl that was able to look past my bullying childhood became my best friend and is still my best friend today even though we are miles apart. I can remember how I used to make her cry and so to have her befriend me was very special!! My own kids are very unique individuals. My daughter is in college now but she also had her share of bullies. She is a very intelligent girl but marches to the beat of her own drummer. We have discussed how bullies are really very unhappy people and I supported her emotionally as much as possible. She had the big samoan football players in high school bully her and she went to the principal and nothing was done. She happened to be the teacher's aide for the school police officer's wife. My daughter went to class one day and she was crying and when she told the officer's wife who in turn told the officer then it was taken care of. My middle son is a big boy and he takes care of things himself. My littlest boy really has not dealt with much of it yet. My best advice is to keep an open line of communication with your children. They can tell you how they want you to deal with it. Bullying is not to be tolerated in schools. Since Columbine came around then people usually look at it differently. It is a sad situation and I work on a special needs school bus. The kids who want to try to make everyone think that they are perfect and look down on everyone else are the worst. 2 moms found this helpful J.S. answers from Tampa on August 02, 2011 My oldest 2 girls have done very well in school. By that, I mean they have had lots of friends, have been academically successfull, and have both gradyated high school with honors. Even the younger of the 2 of them, who is very artsy, who was VERY into theatre and chorus, did very well. She is going on to college in a couple weeks as a theatre major. :) YEAH! I never thought they had any issues with bullying. Recently, they both told me about some of the horrors they went through in middle school, because they were bullied. It made me sick. I felt so bad because I never knew. I wondered how they could have gone through that, and maintained their grades, and I never knew. Well, they did each have friends. They managed to hang on to the friends they had, and keep their chins up, and when high school rolled around, they were both accepted into that new place with their different talents and areas of interest, and their circle of friends grew. Before I knew it, they were friends with everyone in the school, all of the "cliques" They all kind of bled into one another in high school. My younger 2 kids are going to be a different story I think. They both have some form of special need, or social issue, and getting along with their peers is a whole different world for them. My daughter, (who is 8), may unfortunatly attempt to be the bully. I will NOT allow it if it does happen, however it is what I can see in her personality. She is bipolar, and a controling personality. Always wants to be in charge, and will not do things any way but her won. (this is with other peers, NOT adults, as we have worked long and hard to stop that behavior) My son, (age 10), will be the one getting bullied I suspect. It has already begun, and breaks my heart. He does NOT get bullied for the things that you would assume he would. I just answered a post about if a mom should let her boys wear pink shoes, and I would do that if he wanted to wear them. My son gets bullied for things that annoy others in his peer group, but he can't control. He acts differently, very immature. He has aspergers, along with a few other things. He has some "ticks" Socially, he is about 2 to 3 yrs behind. We work with him DAILY to try to teach him how to interact with others in social situations. He has come very far. HE does have a select group of friends, and they are very tight. They stand up for him, but he needs to learn to stand up for himself. It's something that won't change until he does. He is just very caring and sweet. As far as the school having a no tolerence policy, you are right, they have that policy. It does no good. You can't unring a bell. No apology can take away the pain that harsh words or humiliation has caused. Really. We need to teach our kids that. 2 moms found this helpful L.G. answers from Eugene on August 02, 2011 So what if you buck the system. Being bullied is a cruel and nasty thing. Once I grew up I realized how empty on the inside those "popular kids" were. I was an artist and I ignored the empty ones criticisms. Teach your children to excell at what they do. Whether it's art or Judo or language skills. If they have skills they can respect themselves for they can overcome anyone else's cruel words or bullying. Make the school district live up the the antibullying rules. 2 moms found this helpful

It’s worth pointing out again — for the millionth time — the disconnect between Republicans’ and conservative Democrats’ constant yammering about deficits and budget-busters and spending us into bankruptcy, and those same lawmakers’ opposition to the public option — and their crusade to compromise it into nothing. Jacob Hacker at The New Republic has some strong and very on-point thoughts on this subject: The. Daily Kos’s McJoan runs down the latest of these “compromises”: [Sherrod]…. Brown, however, said he is not a convert to the latest proposal. Supporters of the public option have already compromised enough, he said.. If they got rid of the exchanges in return for this, it would get rid of the Ben Nelson/Bart Stupak political problem (though it would still extend the Hyde problem to millions of women) by getting rid of the need for their amendment. But it’s still not a public option, like most of the “compromises” we’ve seen floated in the Senate. The Confluence links to a live stream of Senate debate which is going on over the weekend. Some points that have not been mentioned enough. The public option is designed to offer some competition to the private insurance companies to push down costs. No one opposed to the public option has explained why they don't want to use competition to achieve this. Especially since the alternative is onerous regulation. Since when is regulation preferred to competition? The break through for the insurance companies to go on their out of control pricing and profit spurge was when Congress wrote and passed the law making Blue Cross Blue Shield into private, for profit companies (thank you again Phil Gramm and Dick Armie (sp?)). This removed the cork holding down prices. Remember the private health insurance companies are a legal cartel, legally free to fix prices and divide up markets, to coordinate together to prevent competition in the form of new companies from entering the marketplace. Remember the private health insurance companies' business model is based on a fix markup above cost. The more expensive medial care is the more the companies make without having to take on more risk or having to invest more capital. Armey (only because of your question mark!) No one opposed to the public option has explained why they don't want to use competition to achieve this. Of course they have. For the public option to be successful it has to lower costs enough to provide competition but not so much that they become the only option and destroy the health insurance model. This means the government has to hit a “sweet spot”, something I have no faith at all they will be able to do, in fact the government is notoriously bad at meeting their financial projections. Some would respond they would like to destroy the health insurance model but that is really another debate. If the government's intent is to destroy insurance companies they should say so up front. I did enjoy your well-thought-out post and checked that I liked it. Ever since this debate began, I've found it ironic that Republicans, who always trot out the argument that “Private Industry” is much more efficient than anything run by any Governmental organization, are saying that they are at a disadvantage when compared to governmental organizations, because the Government can always run at a deficit. Being an administrator of managed care organizations under a state's Medicaid program, I assure readers about the absolute limits of budgets, and how they affect programmatic spending–through the elimination of benefits. Additionally, these managed care organizations are capitated (per member per month payment to cover medical care) at rates SIGNIFICANTLY lower than these same organizations offer to their corporate and governmental organization customers. We do alleviate in various ways unexpected, high-cost procedures, etc., since the managed care organizations are not capitated for them, and therefore can offer care to everyone–notwithstanding any prior conditions. The most important thing, though, is that we also monitor these managed care organizations' books very thoroughly, assuring that they are making a profit at these low capitation rates. AND, if the organizations can provide profitable, comprehensive care to our Medicaid population, why cannot they provide the same level of care, for close to the same capitation rates, to all organizational customers? Medicare for all? Medicaid for all? My preference would be single-payer (or our own version of the UK's NHS–though there is no way possible for that to happen) for all; and those rich enough could still get concierge or gold-plated care. If the public option provides a better product at a lower price isn't it the essence of competition that they will become the dominate insurance provider? If you permit the private companies to make money even though they are less efficient aren't you short circuiting the free market system? Besides it is not a sure bet the private companies wouldn't be able to compete with the public option. Aren't we being told that lean mean private enterprise will always run the massive slow inefficient government into the ground? I seem to remember the Heritage Foundation published a study recently where they found that private insurance companies are more efficient at administering health care than the government is at administering Medicare. You consider the Heritage Foundation to be an unbiased source of solid scientific research don't you? Okay, there is maybe just a little snark here. Sorry. Thank you for the like. Actually I consider Heritage Foundation biased to the right. If the public option provides a better product at a lower price isn't it the essence of competition that they will become the dominate insurance provider? If the public option is set up as tax-supported or allowed to run at a deficit then it is no longer a free market and holds a competitive advantage over for-profit or non-profit plans. if the organizations can provide profitable, comprehensive care to our Medicaid population, why cannot they provide the same level of care, for close to the same capitation rates, to all organizational customers? I would guess the answer is the providers and hospitals on these plans are reimbursed at near-Medicaid rates as opposed to private insurance rates? I know that was the case here in Iowa where we had a Medicaid HMO product (can't remember what it was called). No physician could stay in business if every patient paid at those rates. Of course, that is more or less true. Here in California, the managed care organizations only deal with IPA's, who are capitated and not reimbursed. But your point is sound. Regards, brad. The CBO says that the public option, in the form originally proposed by the Senate bill, has a negligible effect on cost. I trust the CBO's independent analysis (my arguments about their deficit numbers notwithstanding–they are not arguments that the CBO is wrong, but that their analysis can be misinterpreted). So, considering the effect on cost is negligible, there are two questions to ask. Why are Republicans so opposed to it, and why do some Democrats demand it? The Republicans say it will add to the deficit, and the Democrats say it will “keep the insurance companies” honest by offering a low-cost alternative. But both are incorrect. The real reason, in both cases, is ideology. (I don't think that “idealogy” is necessarily a bad word, for the record) “No one opposed to the public option has explained why they don't want to use competition to achieve this. Especially since the alternative is onerous regulation. Since when is regulation preferred to competition?” Since when does competition have to come from the government? And the bill does have quite a bit of regulation in it as well. In fact, considering the number of regulatory measures in the bill, and the size of the portion of the economy it applies to, this could be the most significant industry regulation ever passed (assuming it is). The recent CBO report on insurance premiums shows that insurance premiums will increase because insurance companies in the individual insurance market will be forced to provide a higher minimum level of coverage. We can debate whether or not that's a good thing, but it's ironic that the very numbers that some use to stimulate urgency over this issue (the numbers comparing US and foreign health care spending) will actually look worse because of this bill, because of the regulation that is in it. If the public option provides a better product at a lower price isn't it the essence of competition? No, competition is providing a better product at a lower cost. My (and many people's) concern about the public option is the cost incurred and the price charged will go their separate ways just as they have with Medicare, and middle-class taxpayers for generations to come will pay the cost of the ends not meeting. What about the yammering of progressives about the cost of insurance while they wont use their own money to start private insurance companies and run them according to their progressive beliefs with THEIR OWN money. Time they put their own money where their mouths are. [...] Cost Containment and the Public Option – The Moderate VoiceIt’s worth pointing out again — for the millionth time — the disconnect between Republicans’ and conservative Democrats’ constant yammering about deficits and budget-busters and spending us into bankruptcy, and those same lawmakers [...] [...] Cost Containment and the Public Option – The Moderate VoiceIt’s worth pointing out again — for the millionth time — the disconnect between Republicans’ and conservative Democrats’ constant yammering about deficits and budget-busters and spending us into bankruptcy, and those same lawmakers [...] If they wanted competition, they could repeal McCarran-Ferguson, break up the current insurance conglomerates under the Sherman anti-trust act, and get real competition. Then, if they wanted cost reduction, they would break up the AMA, allow people to buy their drug from other countries, fix the ERISA laws, and eliminate the tax difference between individually purchased and employer purchased plans. The whole “public option” concept is based on the idea that health insurance profits are the cause of increasing medical costs. That's provably false. Thus the reluctance of progressives to spend their own money on forming their own insurance enterprises according to their own ideology, the knowledge that they would likely fail miserably. Time they put their own money where their mouths are. But why would they do that when yours is available? They're no fools. “Remember the private health insurance companies are a legal cartel, legally free to fix prices and divide up markets” That is simply not fact and just the sort of internet rumor that gains far too much credence these days. Insurance companies have a limited federal anti-trust exemption under the McCarran-Ferguson Act. In a nutshell, the law exempts the insurance industry from federal antitrust regulation as long as the state regulates. Further it allows for the sharing of claim data between insurers. This is not the same as saying that insurance companies are legal cartels that fix prices. But it does leave anti-trust regulation up to the individual states. So state laws, instead of federal laws, regulate against such cartels. I'm not arguing this is good idea… just adding some clarity. The National Journal had the best quote from a Reid staffer who says that [Harry Reid] included a public option in the bill in part because his staff felt he “could get the liberal left off his back for a while.” So much for the high regard for public policy in the Senate Majority Leader's quest for re-election in 2010. There is no disconnect[ion], Kathy. The public option is an obviously intended expansion of federal entitlements, and an increase in federal expenditures. Of course the Blue Dogs would be among those few Democrats to be most concerned about the public option, just as they would be in the lead about expenditures, deficits, and debt in general. * * * “The public option is designed to offer some competition to the private insurance companies to push down costs.” The Democrats are counting on many to believe that bogus talking point, and are probably confident that many do, especially when it gets repeated. Rigged, bogus “competition” [sic] is not what is sought, obviously; it is substitution of public for private “insurance” (pre-paid health care), or “crowding-out” in the contemporary vernacular, an incrementalist takeover attempt. “making Blue Cross Blue Shield into private, for profit companies” Here is an example of something else that could have been done, to varying lengths or extents, in the name of real reform, but wasn't. Why not make these enterprises non-profit? That is part of what the Conyers Medicare for All legislation wants and is how going to “single-payer” [sic] would be likely done (hopefully minus the unconstitutional low-life theft in the Conyers bill, not compensating for lost profits over 20+ years due to the forced conversion to non-profit status). And in fact, if some were ambitious, as well as open and honest enough, why don't they also advocate a federal or “federal-state partnership” [forced fake grin] takeover of Blue Cross-Blue Shield, making them at once public and non-profit? With the Blues system the Democrats already have something nation-wide they can make into a federal system, if they are willing to reach and dig in their claws. Medicare buy-in advocates and other extremists missed that one, which has always been an Option. [...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Cheryl Jones and Charity Giving, SuperFastLaneMarket. SuperFastLaneMarket said: Cost Containment and the Public Option [...] Merkin…. “No one opposed to the public option has explained why they don't want to use competition to achieve this.” I'll be the last to even try to attempt to defend the insurance companies…. I'll leave that job to Joe Lieberman since they're his constituents. But I think you're missing a golden point here. (And Kathy….this is when I sound a bit more like a Democrat). There are certain areas where capitalism and competition does not belong. Government services (Police, Fire, etc) and healthcare. Do I want my healthcare to be inexpensive? Heck yes. Do I want the “lowest bidder” to perform my heart bypass? Heck NO! To some, this problem's solution is single payer or the public option. To me, however, the option is total and complete regulation of the industries (and practices) that have driven up the cost 500% in the past 20 years – namely insurance, pharmaceuticals, law (tort), etc. The system is broken and the status quo, as President Obama stated, is not acceptable to our bottom line as individuals or as a nation. To further bankrupt the US is not a good solution to me. One more point I'd like to make. As I've said before…. If we are going to go ahead with spending trillions on a public option, I'd much rather have the single payer plan. If you're going to bankrupt the nation, you might as well actually give the people something, instead of bankrupting the nation to simply save us all $100 a month. So…. In my best estimation, strict regulation remains the best option here. “Why not make these enterprises non-profit? “ Good idea. As I stated above, I don't believe that capitalism belongs in this particular “industry”, no more than in other critical need industries (water, sewage, police, fire, etc). This idea, via Conyers, would get the Bluedog support. “I don't believe that capitalism belongs in [...] critical need industries (water, sewage, police, fire, etc)” It's risky to start having the list grow, but there are some things that seem either best or most effective when organized as a managed “monopoly,” or it's seen as something that should be governmental (such as police, which is part of government having a “monopoly” on the use of force against individuals). (A related thought is that some people see privatizing such things as granting of privileges to private parties.) There's also the health-care (treatment or therapy) relevent fact here that there is an intermediary here, the “insurer,” that will make approval decisions as well as paying for them (“insurance” in reality is pre-paid health care, often comprehensive). Moreover, the Blue Cross system is that of “insurers” that are not providers of medical services but just “payers,” and middlemen (intermediaries) acting as facilitators (sometimes disapproving of this or that, just as the federal government withholds federal highway funds if state governments don't jump through hoops of various kinds). This is part of the reason for the term “single-payer” (the bulk of it is due to evasion and the resort to euphemism for what proponents really want, which isn't just payment but control over health care, just as the unwritten-rule behavior of federal highway funds is aimed at exercising federal controls). With the Blues, in other words, you have at least a non-profit alternative (choice, option, whatever) that can be made available to people again, and these could be integrated formally into a nation-wide, single, standard-benefit-package-and-procedure system under federal regulation. An even bolder move would be to federalize them, take them over, make their employees federal employees (beware AFSCME and unionization and Dem politicizing of it all, in that case!). But at least making it non-profit would be a real “choice” (alternative to for-profit private insurance) that is palatable to much of the electorate, and going to a federal single system (or a single system in each state, overseen by the feds, as an incrementalist step toward shifting it eventually more like Medicare) would be an obvious thing that could have been done, and has been neglected. I'll add that another alternative, when the issue of “costly facilities” and duplication (several parties competing with expensive equipment for the most lucrative medical business, including imaging and treatments of diseases that are intentive and pay well, like heart-related procedures, along with the obvious example everywhere of hospitals) is to have government own and operate these expensive facilities (the “utility” concept, as I put it, just like the water or the power company, a highly regulated local monopoly). These are obviously more serious and substantial (and controversial) measures than plain and simple regulatory reform of the insurers (which is all that really is needed, and which is true reform; I've listed these examples as well as other incrementalist-takeover examples or strategies numerous times). But we're probably heading toward a much larger federal role in health care, though there are good grounds for fighting its worst possibilities, at least, and if we do it, there are logical and effective choices to consider. Just a thought or two… We'll see what happens with health care “reform.” The PC “climate” gang is at it right now, with the EPA about to announce a “need” to regulate “greenhouse gases” — as a “health hazard” issue. No doubt this is to make the Smug Fools feel better about the USA's future policy, to coincide with the start of the climate follies in Copenhagen. What's next, gun control as a “public health” issue, too? (And “food policy” …) But the public option option is set up to be self-supporting, with no public tax money used. And would not be able to run a deficit. This would not be hard to police. It is simple accounting. I am curious about the statement: “If the public option is set up as tax-supported or allowed to run at a deficit then it is no longer a free market … “ The problem we are facing is that the current health care insurance market is not competitive. The private health insurance companies participate in a legal cartel that fixes prices and allocates market share to its members.The defenders of the free market system and competition seem to be blissfully unaware or not concerned with this assault on competition. The health insurance business is Wall Street's dream kind of business. It requires little or no capital investment, entails little risk and generates huge profits which in turn generates huge market capital (stock value), the ultimate goal of Wall Street, wealth from nearly nothing. The only way it could be better is if they could accomplish it without hiring people. It is so expensive, for some reason, to provide them with health insurance. Two big fears one should have about the public option. One is that the politicians will not keep their hands off of it. Much as the mammogram mess earlier. But this a problem with the regulation of the insurance companies as well. Also the insurance companies will try to turn the public option into a dumping ground for the sick allowing them to insure the healthy. In this way they can easily compete with the public option. It is how they competed against the community based rate non-profits (Blue Cross etc.) before they became for profits. I actually believe the Heritage Foundation is a push type research institute where they write the conclusion before starting so they will know what the research is suppose to prove. I was being a little snarky, sorry. Thanks for reads. This blog has a large number of thoughtful commentators and few screamers with their caps lock keys stuck on. Two big fears one should have about the public option. One is that the politicians will not keep their hands off of it. I wouldn't call that a fear as much as a certainty. It would be politicians' job to run it. But isn't the primary problem that Medicare has is that medical costs are increasing at two to three times the rate of inflation while their revenues from payroll taxes increase at roughly the inflation rate? Along with the costs from the Medicare part D and Medicare Advantage which were enacted without any funding source, of course. And the largely still looming demographic (baby boomer retirement) problem. Your concern over price verses cost is only valid if you believe the government is incapable of operating the public option. This would seem to be less of a concern than you think. The United States pays for more medical costs than the health insurance companies pay for right now Bear with me, I am disabled and it takes me a long time to craft these meager responses. Yes, Merkin, you nailed the problem exactly: cost growth exceeds revenue growth. Medicare hasn't been able to solve that problem. It can't cut services without enraging seniors, it can't raise revenue without angering taxpayers, and it can't improve efficiency (for example by paying for quality rather than quantity of care) without panicking virtually everyone. So it carries on with what amounts to a Ponzi scheme, borrowing from future clients to cover obligations to current ones. And this is precisely the evidence that the government is incapable of operating a public option. Fair points. So we must qualify and say the insurance companies are a legal cartel only on the national level, while prevented from trust behavior within the various states with varying degrees of success. However it is sliced and diced the question is how competitive is the health insurance industry. Will added competition lower prices or are they at their optimum now? Has the competition within the industry forced their profits and overheads to the barebones while, more importantly for our current discussion, forcing them to put pressure on the medical care providers to in turn lower their prices so the insurance company who has done so can squeeze a small advantage over his competition. How to decide if this the state of the health insurance industry today? With competition raging we should see medical costs held down, say to roughly the general inflation rate. The markups over the costs should have held steady or hopefully declined because of increased productivity allowing modest year to year gains in profits. Should I stop now or is their anyone in our corner of the internet who believes this the state of competition in the health insurance industry today? If it looks like a cartel and acts like a cartel it is a cartel. Actually I agree with you. The current health care care reform effort is a cobbled together mess which will reward the various companies that caused the problems. It is not just the insurance companies. It is the private hospitals that cherry pick the insured patients sending the uninsured to the public hospitals. It is the pharmaceutical companies paying generic drug producers to not produce copies of profitable branded drugs. Or who find it more profitable to short circuit the doctors by advertising aimed directly at the patients, so much more profitable in the short term they are willing to divert money from research to it, hurting their long term prospects. It is doctors who own expensive diagnostic equipment they have to over proscribe use of to profit from. It is is long term health care insurers who pay only half of their premiums for long term health care. Or any one of a hundred other examples. A study in the New England Journal of Medicine concluded that Medicare for all, with no other changes, would save the United States $350 billion a year. The current bill filed for Medicare for all is thirty pages long, meaning it qualifies under the new requirement some seem to have that wide ranging legislative goals should be capable of being met by brief bills. (OK this is snark, so sue me) We have to get our run away medical costs under control. It is hurting our world wide competitiveness. It has cut down on personal income and profits as companies have had to divert gains made from productivity increases to pay for health care insurance. It has done more than any tax or tax increase to do these things. My biggest disappointment with the entire debate has been the reluctance of the large corporations to make these points known and to lobby for the changes required. We are told we must control costs but cannot do in the way that does it the most and the easiest because the entrenched interests who would be hurt are too strong. In fact we must further enrich them, including money from the federal till. We are not even allowed to ask why. Much less ask such obvious questions such as what exactly is it that the insurance companies do to justify their money. We are told giving the task to government will stifle innovation. Yet when I ask the once again obvious follow up question; what innovations have come from the health insurance industry in health care or health care delivery, I get a whole lot of nothing. For 350 billion dollars a year, one half of the defense budget, nothing. We are left with this thrice watered down public option to try to control costs enrolling maybe 10 million people. And even this is too much for some. Merkin, you keep mentioning the cartel situation that prevents real competition in the health insurance industry. I agree that there are aspects of the heath insurance industry, as well as the health industry itself, that have these noncompetitive aspects (most everyone sees that.) Dave Schuler at The Glittering Eye has some great posts on that subject- I'd highly recommend them. But those present opportunities for corrections, since as you mention, these are 'legal cartels.' Change some of the existing laws which enable the cartels, and you'll have a better chance of introducing competition rather than creating a new govt option when the old govt options have only driven costs up, not down. Govt run systems can only fix pricing, not change the laws of supply and demand. Where the govt can and should intervene is on the supply side, and in preventing oligopolies from artificially raising prices. But certainly the present scheme is no answer. Costs are running away, more and more employers are having to stop providing health care coverage. It is almost as if you are saying people would prefer being raped by the insurance industry to being slapped by the government.That having the country run quickly into bankruptcy by private industry is better than the government doing it slowly. That paying my money for million dollar executive salaries beats having it go for mammograms or old people‘s drugs.(OK, it wouldn't surprise you to know I could keep on going in this vein for quite a while. If you haven't already guessed I have never met a point I couldn't beat totally to death) Do you think the health insurance insurance companies are better able to control medical costs than the government? We don't have to guess about this, the evidence is available. Do you believe the health insurance industry is more efficient at administering the coverage than the government? Once again we don't have to guess the evidence is available. To me this seems to be a case of ”government is always bad, private enterprise is always good” even if it costs us more. Set me straight. (OK, I tried but just couldn't stop) Do you think the health insurance insurance companies are better able to control medical costs than the government? In the right structure, yes. What we have today is clearly broken, cartels are in control of not just insurance but other big parts of the the health care industry as well, and our imaginative regulatory regime is helping to keep them in power. We need reform to introduce more competition, and competition to drive efficiency up and costs down, just like it has in our healthier industries. The reform needs to come from the government. But the competition doesn't. [...] It’s worth pointing out again — for the millionth time — the disconnect between Republicans’ and conservative Democrats‘ constant yammering about deficits and budget-busters and spending us into bankruptcy, and those same lawmakers’ opposition to the …Read Original Story: Cost Containment and the Public Option – The Moderate Voice [...] Just repeal McCarran-Ferguson and let the existing Sherman Anti-trust act apply. It's simple, cheap, and relatively pain-free, except for the insurance companies.