SouthernCrossAI/Reddit-posts · Datasets at Hugging Face

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A legally run event would have ohs plans in place, fire safety and evacuation procedures, insurance of many kinds, security, council approval for zoning, health care like St john's present.
A doof or private party wouldnt have much of this which is why it becomes a grey area. Then the drugs that go along with it make it a huge target for cops to shut it down.
Selling tickets as an event when the location is not zoned for such activities.
Selling alcohol without a license.
Selling drugs.
Claims to be a solicitor, has “DJ” in their name.
Clearly just trying to have people help validate your reasoning to throw a bush doof, hoping that you can use something you read on the internet to help you out of trouble.
Kill joys
Reading through this thread, it is clear that there is nothing that makes this illegal.
What kind of wnker would shut down a party in a field because of littering, or potential environemental damage.*
I am sorry to live on this planet.
How far out are your events from town? I can't imagine the cops sending out a patrol car to our doof spots every weekend. Sounds like you need spots further afield
Thanks for the ideas/leads. No trespass of private property - either public land or places owned/leased by ourselves.
No damage to environment or littering - leave no trace principle :-)
No public nuisance as locations chosen so as to avoid noise / disruption & residential areas. Police attending are actually confirming no public complaints have been made.
Misuse of public land - maybe? For the ones in parks/fields? But why is it "misuse" as opposed to "use" - again, can't find any relevant legislation or regulation.
Thanks, I really appreciate your reasoned information.
I've been going to raves/doofs at least weekly for a few years, and help a few mates out, but only in the last 6 weeks have we seen a completely unprecedented level of police interventionism - it's super weird & concerning.
Re ticketing - that makes sense, yes. Wish I knew what the actual relevant regs were on that - what defines a ticket for example? Thinking about the veteran ravers who'd use loopholes like a donation box, or everyone buys a mixtape as they come in ---- how does that connect with ticketing rules?
Noise complaints we're being told by cops are not the issue.
I agree the drugs aren't the issue as the cops are not even searching anyone or making any arrests etc. They're literally just patrolling the known areas and shutting everything down EVERY single Friday and Saturday.
What we don't understand is the how and why.
Thanks again
Haha Wordly OP getting tooo high on their own supply 🤣
Claims to be a solicitor, but thinks insurance is a bit much.
Just getting some different perspectives. This isn't really a q for lawyers per se; more for cops and those in public policy.
LEPRA s 197 is something police have mentioned re: public places, talking about intimidating etc - but in circumstances where that is just bullshit and we all know it. But sure, they do have these broad powers. But is that really it? That's what they're patrolling & attending in large numbers in reliance on?
For private property, noise is no issue due to state of the art soundproofing; no alcohol is served; and drugs aren't being sold/supplied either. Police attending don't seem interested in these issues anyway.
Excellent, thank you for sharing those experiences. That gives me some direction in searching for more relevant regulations/legislation.
Could certainly be relevant for some of the bush doofs etc. Not so much I'd think for say an underpass doof and certainly not for warehouse parties etc. Hmmm
Excellent, good to hear from a vet.
All the warehouse raves are getting shut down - the cops are crawling the known areas and even just parking outside warehouses throughout Friday-Saturday nights. Same for underpasses, clearances etc where doofs can be held.
It's pretty demoralising, that's for sure - no safe spaces left for the community at this stage.
I wonder why they make it so difficult to understand. There's no definition of "doof". 5 people listening to music is not a concert; but 1000 is - I'd assume?
Consistently sounds like it's a regulatory and essentially a cultural issue - I get we're a backwards country when it comes to that, but there's enough of a community to make it worth fighting for.
Haha indeed
Maybe part of the problem (ie absence of clear laws) is that the pencil pushers who'd be making them have never been to one
Thanks, appreciate your message.
I am absolutely looking into it. Have spoken with barristers and solicitors with a little bit of experience in the area - the issue is if going down paid advice route, finding someone who can actually give comprehensive advice - it breeches criminal law, police powers, council regs, public policy, environmental restrictions, licensing and permit rules etc
Thanks for the notes and ideas
The warehouses are not generally abandoned, they’re owned or leased by ravers.
There’s exit signs, fire escapes etc
I mean some of these things might be distasteful to some or even unlawful on a personal level, but none would really explain how the gathering itself is “illegal”
Sure, that's damn well established, but there still needs to be actual laws/regulations.
It has to go beyond a cop simply saying "Why are you in a park at midnight? Don't you have somewhere better to be mate?", etc.
You don't need to read my questions if they make you pressed bro, I don't expect everyone to be able to help :-)
Sure, but why haha, what does the law actually say ... if money changing hands is the golden goose I'd expect ticketing to be covered clearly in the relevant regs etc
Wonder what powers police have to enforce council regs
5 mates listening to music in the park or a warehouse don't need insurance or St John's attendees haha - that's what I'm trying to work out, and no one seems to know - is it when 5 becomes 20, or 50, or what? Bizarre.
The cops don't appear to be targeting drugs - despite rumours the current taskforce is related to same. Also bizarre.
Seems increasingly like it's inherently a cultural issue. We can't force cops/regulators to have certain levels of travel experience or education tho. Que sera.
What about no alcohol or drugs sold (obviously - everything is BYO), and no tickets per se? Donations etc?
Haha many many solicitors are DJs ... it's literally a trope at this point
And yeah, I'm trying to gather as many experiences & perspectives & pointers as possible. Got my fingers in a lot of sources of information right now. Have had some super useful private messages .
It's a shame a small percentage of redditors get snarky about the topic; I presume it's some sort of moralism.
There's no Killjoy Act, what are they actually relying on haha no one seems to have any idea even themselves :-(
I mean, to be fair, littering/environmental damage sucks and I'd be happy with those responsible getting fined accordingly.
Definitely doesn't explain what's going on tho.
I love living on this planet; just don't enjoy sharing it with no-hopers and party-haters.
... and yeah, 60+ comments and not a single piece of legislation or regulation mentioned other than LEPRA s 197 (eye roll on that one).
The thing is no one knows, not even the cops doing it.
That’s fine for bush doofs, but I’m talking things like warehouse and underpass raves too.
> No damage to environment or littering - leave no trace principle :-)
How often is that achieved in practice though? Is it closer to 100% or to 10%?
And my big concern would be disturbing native animal habitat with all the noise, the people and the lights.
Our precious animals are under far too much pressure as it is. How badly might these bush gatherings be affecting them or driving them out of their little remaining refuge?
Are they actually shutting the event down or are they looking for drugs — I wouldn’t think drug use could shut down an event though, they’d simply have to target the individuals?
The doofs i attend are $200 a ticket. Ive never paid less than about 150 for a 3 day event.
The tickets are bought online and anything that looks like or can be used in relpacement of a ticket is basically just a ticket - those loopholes dont really exist unless you are being family friendly.
The regs are pretty easy to find - but im at work
I know the doofing scene differs region to region, but ours are planned 3-4 months in advance, ive already bought my ticket to a doof in october. Each site is only used once or twice a year.
So if you are going to raves every 2 weeks, then i doubt there is as much planning involved and the same sites are getting used regularly.
Once areas become hotspots, then it becomes risky.
>Re ticketing - that makes sense, yes. Wish I knew what the actual relevant regs were on that - what defines a ticket for example?
The fact that you're helping to organise events and you aren't even the slightest bit informed on this most basic issue is incredibly telling.
What defines a ticket? If someone pays you for something, then you have to declare it with taxes. Are your mates declaring these ticket sales on a tax refund? No? ILLEGAL.
If anyone buys a ticket, then there's liability. Where's you're insurance? What about security? Services? Adequate sanitation (toilets and rubbish removal) - and no, a bunch of mates with bin bags cleaning up after is not sufficient, because where are they dumping it? You need a plan.
You need fire safety plans, equipped first aid, evacuation, access for emergency services.
What about licensing? Noise control? Who's stepping in and capping the police when someone does get touched without consent or a fight breaks out or someone ODs?
Source: I've been organising and attending raves, festivals, doofs and assorted gatherings since 1997, in Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, Zimbabwe, Brazil, Argentina, Costa Rica, Israel, Turkey, China, Thailand (that I've been a part of organising), and add another dozen countries that I've attended.
You're right - I think the Police are using a blunt instrument here. They sometimes just assume they can move people on and claim that a failure to obey is an arrestable defence. There have been a few cases of people disputing the reasonableness of the move on direction and Police are (generally) getting better but there are still a lot of dinosaurs and thugs in the Force.
I think this is why it is referred to as a bit of a grey area - there's no specific law prohibiting a rave. It all depends on where and how you do it. As long as you as an individual have a right to be in a certain place (e.g. public place, not inclosed, not subject to permit requirements, private property) then it is OK to have a party. It's where Police get multiple complaints about noise, intoxication, intimidating behaviour etc that they try to get creative and shut the whole thing down rather than deal with specific elements causing trouble.
Or, you know, those pesky fire codes.
I did have a laugh at "drugs aren't being sold/supplied". Good one🤣🤣🤣🤣
Thank you for taking my reply as it was intended, I really didn’t want to come of as judging or rude or dismissive in any way. I just know that you haven’t had satisfactory outcomes with the usual expert but pro bono avenues I’d suggest, so wonder if paid advice might be the next step, especially if you might be considering an event in the future (as lawyers always say, everything depends on the unique set of facts in question).
That said, if you haven’t spoken to PIAC yet it might be worth a “Hail Mary” enquiry. I don’t think your queries are within their ambit, but it could provide fruitful given their past focus on young people, public space, drug dogs and nsw police’s misuse of move on powers/searches/profiling etc.
Event venues have to be licensed and have appropriate permits to operate.
There is a whole host of things that have to be accounted for when operating an event venue. None of those would happen when the "rave" is a once off.
* capacity limits
* Traffic management
* alcohol permits
* noise management
* crowd control both inside and outside and surrounds
* There would be more
You mistake me - it’s despair at the standard of junior solicitors these days. Seriously, is this the best you can do?
Personally, if I’d been as pilloried as hard as you by a pack of senior lawyers for my lack of competence I’d be taking some time for self reflection.
But I do look forward to you showing up in an update from the law society
im not going to be involved in trying to organise a bush doof
Mate anyone reading your replies can easily figure out the type of person you are.
You want to hide your actual agenda behind “oh I’m just gathering perspectives” with your over friendly and shallow replies lol

A legally run event would have ohs plans in place, fire safety and evacuation procedures, insurance of many kinds, security, council approval for zoning, health care like St john's present.

A doof or private party wouldnt have much of this which is why it becomes a grey area. Then the drugs that go along with it make it a huge target for cops to shut it down.

Selling tickets as an event when the location is not zoned for such activities.

Selling alcohol without a license.

Selling drugs.

Claims to be a solicitor, has “DJ” in their name.

Clearly just trying to have people help validate your reasoning to throw a bush doof, hoping that you can use something you read on the internet to help you out of trouble.

Kill joys

Reading through this thread, it is clear that there is nothing that makes this illegal.

What kind of w*nker would shut down a party in a field because of littering, or potential *environemental damage.*

I am sorry to live on this planet.

How far out are your events from town? I can't imagine the cops sending out a patrol car to our doof spots every weekend. Sounds like you need spots further afield

Thanks for the ideas/leads. No trespass of private property - either public land or places owned/leased by ourselves.

No damage to environment or littering - leave no trace principle :-)

No public nuisance as locations chosen so as to avoid noise / disruption & residential areas. Police attending are actually confirming no public complaints have been made.

Misuse of public land - maybe? For the ones in parks/fields? But why is it "misuse" as opposed to "use" - again, can't find any relevant legislation or regulation.

Thanks, I really appreciate your reasoned information.

I've been going to raves/doofs at least weekly for a few years, and help a few mates out, but only in the last 6 weeks have we seen a completely unprecedented level of police interventionism - it's super weird & concerning.

Re ticketing - that makes sense, yes. Wish I knew what the actual relevant regs were on that - what defines a ticket for example? Thinking about the veteran ravers who'd use loopholes like a donation box, or everyone buys a mixtape as they come in ---- how does that connect with ticketing rules?

Noise complaints we're being told by cops are not the issue.

I agree the drugs aren't the issue as the cops are not even searching anyone or making any arrests etc. They're literally just patrolling the known areas and shutting everything down EVERY single Friday and Saturday.

What we don't understand is the how and why.

Thanks again

Haha Wordly OP getting tooo high on their own supply 🤣

Claims to be a solicitor, but thinks insurance is a bit much.

Just getting some different perspectives. This isn't really a q for lawyers per se; more for cops and those in public policy.

LEPRA s 197 is something police have mentioned re: public places, talking about intimidating etc - but in circumstances where that is just bullshit and we all know it. But sure, they do have these broad powers. But is that really it? That's what they're patrolling & attending in large numbers in reliance on?

For private property, noise is no issue due to state of the art soundproofing; no alcohol is served; and drugs aren't being sold/supplied either. Police attending don't seem interested in these issues anyway.

Excellent, thank you for sharing those experiences. That gives me some direction in searching for more relevant regulations/legislation.

Could certainly be relevant for some of the bush doofs etc. Not so much I'd think for say an underpass doof and certainly not for warehouse parties etc. Hmmm

Excellent, good to hear from a vet.

All the warehouse raves are getting shut down - the cops are crawling the known areas and even just parking outside warehouses throughout Friday-Saturday nights. Same for underpasses, clearances etc where doofs can be held.

It's pretty demoralising, that's for sure - no safe spaces left for the community at this stage.

I wonder why they make it so difficult to understand. There's no definition of "doof". 5 people listening to music is not a concert; but 1000 is - I'd assume?

Consistently sounds like it's a regulatory and essentially a cultural issue - I get we're a backwards country when it comes to that, but there's enough of a community to make it worth fighting for.

Haha indeed

Maybe part of the problem (ie absence of clear laws) is that the pencil pushers who'd be making them have never been to one

Thanks, appreciate your message.

I am absolutely looking into it. Have spoken with barristers and solicitors with a little bit of experience in the area - the issue is if going down paid advice route, finding someone who can actually give comprehensive advice - it breeches criminal law, police powers, council regs, public policy, environmental restrictions, licensing and permit rules etc

Thanks for the notes and ideas

The warehouses are not generally abandoned, they’re owned or leased by ravers.

There’s exit signs, fire escapes etc

I mean some of these things might be distasteful to some or even unlawful on a personal level, but none would really explain how the gathering itself is “illegal”

Sure, that's damn well established, but there still needs to be actual laws/regulations.

It has to go beyond a cop simply saying "Why are you in a park at midnight? Don't you have somewhere better to be mate?", etc.

You don't need to read my questions if they make you pressed bro, I don't expect everyone to be able to help :-)

Sure, but why haha, what does the law actually say ... if money changing hands is the golden goose I'd expect ticketing to be covered clearly in the relevant regs etc

Wonder what powers police have to enforce council regs

5 mates listening to music in the park or a warehouse don't need insurance or St John's attendees haha - that's what I'm trying to work out, and no one seems to know - is it when 5 becomes 20, or 50, or what? Bizarre.

The cops don't appear to be targeting drugs - despite rumours the current taskforce is related to same. Also bizarre.

Seems increasingly like it's inherently a cultural issue. We can't force cops/regulators to have certain levels of travel experience or education tho. Que sera.

What about no alcohol or drugs sold (obviously - everything is BYO), and no tickets per se? Donations etc?

Haha many many solicitors are DJs ... it's literally a trope at this point

And yeah, I'm trying to gather as many experiences & perspectives & pointers as possible. Got my fingers in a lot of sources of information right now. Have had some super useful private messages .

It's a shame a small percentage of redditors get snarky about the topic; I presume it's some sort of moralism.

There's no Killjoy Act, what are they actually relying on haha no one seems to have any idea even themselves :-(

I mean, to be fair, littering/environmental damage sucks and I'd be happy with those responsible getting fined accordingly.

Definitely doesn't explain what's going on tho.

I love living on this planet; just don't enjoy sharing it with no-hopers and party-haters.

... and yeah, 60+ comments and not a single piece of legislation or regulation mentioned other than LEPRA s 197 (eye roll on that one).

The thing is no one knows, not even the cops doing it.

That’s fine for bush doofs, but I’m talking things like warehouse and underpass raves too.

> No damage to environment or littering - leave no trace principle :-)

How often is that achieved in practice though? Is it closer to 100% or to 10%?

And my big concern would be disturbing native animal habitat with all the noise, the people and the lights.

Our precious animals are under far too much pressure as it is. How badly might these bush gatherings be affecting them or driving them out of their little remaining refuge?

Are they actually shutting the event down or are they looking for drugs — I wouldn’t think drug use could shut down an event though, they’d simply have to target the individuals?

The doofs i attend are $200 a ticket. Ive never paid less than about 150 for a 3 day event.

The tickets are bought online and anything that looks like or can be used in relpacement of a ticket is basically just a ticket - those loopholes dont really exist unless you are being family friendly.

The regs are pretty easy to find - but im at work

I know the doofing scene differs region to region, but ours are planned 3-4 months in advance, ive already bought my ticket to a doof in october. Each site is only used once or twice a year.

So if you are going to raves every 2 weeks, then i doubt there is as much planning involved and the same sites are getting used regularly.

Once areas become hotspots, then it becomes risky.

>Re ticketing - that makes sense, yes. Wish I knew what the actual relevant regs were on that - what defines a ticket for example?

The fact that you're helping to organise events and you aren't even the slightest bit informed on this most basic issue is incredibly telling.

What defines a ticket? If someone pays you for something, then you have to declare it with taxes. Are your mates declaring these ticket sales on a tax refund? No? ILLEGAL.

If anyone buys a ticket, then there's *liability*. Where's you're insurance? What about security? Services? Adequate sanitation (toilets and rubbish removal) - and no, a bunch of mates with bin bags cleaning up after is not sufficient, because where are they dumping it? You need a plan.

You need fire safety plans, equipped first aid, evacuation, access for emergency services.

What about licensing? Noise control? Who's stepping in and capping the police when someone does get touched without consent or a fight breaks out or someone ODs?

Source: I've been organising and attending raves, festivals, doofs and assorted gatherings since 1997, in Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, Zimbabwe, Brazil, Argentina, Costa Rica, Israel, Turkey, China, Thailand (that I've been a part of organising), and add another dozen countries that I've attended.

You're right - I think the Police are using a blunt instrument here. They sometimes just assume they can move people on and claim that a failure to obey is an arrestable defence. There have been a few cases of people disputing the reasonableness of the move on direction and Police are (generally) getting better but there are still a lot of dinosaurs and thugs in the Force.

I think this is why it is referred to as a bit of a grey area - there's no specific law prohibiting a rave. It all depends on where and how you do it. As long as you as an individual have a right to be in a certain place (e.g. public place, not inclosed, not subject to permit requirements, private property) then it is OK to have a party. It's where Police get multiple complaints about noise, intoxication, intimidating behaviour etc that they try to get creative and shut the whole thing down rather than deal with specific elements causing trouble.

Or, you know, those pesky fire codes.

I did have a laugh at "drugs aren't being sold/supplied". Good one🤣🤣🤣🤣

Thank you for taking my reply as it was intended, I really didn’t want to come of as judging or rude or dismissive in any way. I just know that you haven’t had satisfactory outcomes with the usual expert but pro bono avenues I’d suggest, so wonder if paid advice might be the next step, especially if you might be considering an event in the future (as lawyers always say, everything depends on the unique set of facts in question).

That said, if you haven’t spoken to PIAC yet it might be worth a “Hail Mary” enquiry. I don’t think your queries are within their ambit, but it could provide fruitful given their past focus on young people, public space, drug dogs and nsw police’s misuse of move on powers/searches/profiling etc.

Event venues have to be licensed and have appropriate permits to operate.

There is a whole host of things that have to be accounted for when operating an event venue. None of those would happen when the "rave" is a once off.

* capacity limits

* Traffic management

* alcohol permits

* noise management

* crowd control both inside and outside and surrounds

* There would be more

You mistake me - it’s despair at the standard of junior solicitors these days. Seriously, is this the best you can do?

Personally, if I’d been as pilloried as hard as you by a pack of senior lawyers for my lack of competence I’d be taking some time for self reflection.

But I do look forward to you showing up in an update from the law society

im not going to be involved in trying to organise a bush doof

Mate anyone reading your replies can easily figure out the type of person you are.

You want to hide your actual agenda behind “oh I’m just gathering perspectives” with your over friendly and shallow replies lol