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Unless one sees the necessity of change one can talk about endlessly. I agree, sir. I quite agree.
And you need energy to see there is a desperate urgency to change... Look sir, there is a war going on between Israel and the Arabs. That is the result of fragmentation, isn't it? And if you are really... if you want to live in a world that is so destructive, peacefully, how are you to do it?
You must be non-fragmented, mustn't you? You must be neither an Israelite or an Arab, Hindu or a Muslim. Right?
Are you? No. Why not?
When you see the importance of living peacefully, why do you accept fragmentation like that? Which leads to war. Why should one be fragmented?
But you - oh lord! You don't even listen. Because we still separate ourselves from that fragmentation, further fragmentation exists... That's right sir.
I agree sir, these are all the various reasons. But I want to find out how to live a life in which there is no fragmentation, and therefore no conflict, and therefore live a life completely harmonious and peaceful. How an I to do it?
You eat a lot of (inaudible) it helps... (Laughter) You are really not interested in it, are you? I am. I am.
You can tell us how. No, he can't tell us how. Why not?
You can't tell us how, can you? Wait a minute, sir, you see you have opinions already. Sir, it seems easy and clear to see that I mustn't have nationality and all these broad titles of fragmentation, but inwardly...
I am coming to that, sir. Outwardly we see the fragmentations and what they do in the world, and there is also inward fragmentation. We are broken up inside.
How is it, all this to end? By not having images. By not having any images.
Are you telling me theoretically? Have you no images? You have no images?
Yes I have. Therefore why talk about it? Get rid of it and then you can tell me what to do.
(Inaudible) My lord! (Inaudible) Sir, do listen for a few minutes, would you? There is outward fragmentation - as nationalities, scientists, housekeeper - you know, fragmentation outwardly, and there is fragmentation, one is divided in oneself.
Inwardly and outwardly. And inwardly there is the thinker and the thought, the experience and the future experiencer, there is a division all the time. And I see such a division both outwardly and inwardly creates great disharmony.
Right? And that disharmony prevents one from seeing things very clearly, living a very clear, simple, direct life. Now how am I to be free of all these fragments, outwardly and inwardly?
Is it at all possible, and if it is not possible then let's give it up. If it is possible let's find out. Is there something intercepting, because when I have an experience which I accept, and when I have an experience which I resist, the accepted one doesn't seem to be so dividing as the one that I resist.
Why should you accept any experience, or reject any... Because it is there. No. Acceptance means holding, and the other means resistance.
So you are resisting anything which you don't like and keeping those which you like, and which means a division. (Inaudible) That's a supposition - if you don't hold on to anything then you are reborn every minute. But I do hold on to my....
Please do give a little attention to what is being said. Don't carry on with your own thoughts, with your own ideas, your own conclusions, you are here to listen to somebody, aren't you? Not only to me, to each other - to listen.
But you don't, you are carrying on with your own ideas. There is fragmentation both outwardly and inwardly, this division. Division invariably creates conflict, and I want to live a life that is completely without conflict, which is to live a life of real... a life of non-violence.
Now how am to... Conflict is essential to the world. You say that.
Conflict is essential to the world. Then fight. (Inaudible) No, no, no, please, I am talking of conflict inwardly, not on the roof... You said the outside is the same as the inside.
No, wait a minute, madame. The wars - not the shadow on the canvas - wars, the hatred between people, the quarrels between husband and wife, the brutality. No?
(Inaudible) You are talking about your conflict. Why don't you listen? I want to find out how to live a life of harmony.
How do you do this? Please tell me how to set about to live a life of harmony, in which the division as the 'me' and the 'not me', we and they come to an end. First of all we have to accept that there is such a thing as harmony.
Why should I accept that there is such a thing as harmony? All that I know is that we are in discord. I want to find out a way of ending that discord.
(Inaudible) All right, I have examined it. I am brought up as a Hindu for the last fifty years and you are brought up as a Muslim - or if you are a Hindu, I'll be a Muslim - I have been brought up as a Muslim for fifty years and you have been brought up as a Hindu for fifty years - and the cause is my conditioning. Why are there Hindus and Muslims, why are there two things?
My darling sir! (Inaudible) It's not that which causes it... What causes that? A group of people believed that Mohammed was the only prophet, and the people round him made a propaganda and converted others with sword, war and all the rest of it.
And there were, in the beginning, there were a group of Hindu people who said we are all Hindus, different from - there it is. Need we go into all these obvious reasons? You see we have nearly spent twenty, thirty minutes, discussing the most obvious thing.
You can see the discord an not try to do something about it. Now how do you, sir, that's the whole point. We don't know how to do it.
If you say, 'I really don't know what to do', then we can discuss. But if you say, 'Yes, what is the reason we are divided, let's go into what is the cause' - you follow? If you really say, 'I really don't know how to live a life totally harmonious', then we have a point of contact.
(Inaudible) Oh my lord. (Inaudible) Look sir, there is... It is possible for us to experience fragmentation more and more deeply... (inaudible) Would it be useful if you investigated the fragmentation more and more deeply, would that bring about non-fragmentation.
Surely we must concentrate only on fragmentation of the mind. We are born of different colours and in different parts of the world for a start and will continue... (inaudible) So let's concentrate on the mind, that's possibly the... (inaudible) Sir, that's what we are doing. Even if we get rid of Hindus and... ...communists, Catholics and Irish and non-Irish...
Yes, sir, yes, sir. ...and you know we still have disagreements on that subject, we are still going to have Africans and Europeans... Yes but sir, that is not what we are talking about.
Look, I have a my problem is I come to you all and say, look, I want to live really a life of deep harmony in which I have no conflict, but I have good relationship with people, in which there is no quarrels, battles, and anxiety. I want to live a completely harmonious life. Now wait a minute, don't answer me.
I come to you because I am very serious. I want to live that way. I'll give up everything to live that way, including my house, my property, my gods - I want to live that way.
I come to you. What is your answer? (Inaudible) Right, you don't know, do you?
Therefore let's find out how to do it. You don't know and I don't know. Right?
Then let's find out how to - how, starting from not knowing let's find out, shall we? Not knowing, and you mean not knowing - don't invent afterwards this, that - you follow? - you really don't know.
If you knew it you would be living it wouldn't you? So since you don't know it, let us start from not knowing. Right?
Right? Now if you don't know, you are living harmoniously. Do please pay attention to what I am saying, for god's sake!
If you say, 'I really don't know what to do', then what will you do? Nothing... Oh, do listen sir, please listen! If you really don't know then you will assert nothing, will you?
You will say, I will accept, I won't accept, I will resist, I won't resist, what is the cause of it - you follow? - you say, 'I really don't know'. So your mind then is in a state of non-fragmentation, isn't it?
No? When you actually say, 'I don't know'. Can you ever say, 'I don't know'?
(Inaudible) That's all I am saying, sir. (Inaudible) So you are frightened of not knowing. Right?
You want to live a harmonious life, you may not. I want to live an harmonious life and I never say to myself, 'I don't know how to do it'. I say, 'I must live an harmonious life, this is what I must do, this is what I must not' - you follow?
I come to answer it through my conclusions, therefore that's not an answer. Right? Please.
So can I honestly say to myself, 'I really don't know how to live an harmonious life'? Then from not knowing I am going to find out. You follow?
I am going to find out, not come with a conclusion to find out. Can we move from there? At least with some of you who say, 'I really don't know'.
I am dreadfully serious, honest, when I say, 'I really don't know' - which means I have no conclusions, I have no images, no concepts, I really don't know. Can some of you say that? If you do then let's begin, at last.
(Inaudible) Now, I don't know. You know when I say, 'I don't know' - please go slowly with me, have patience with me - what do I mean when I say, 'I don't know'? Is that state of mind, when I say, 'I don't know', is it waiting to be informed?
Please listen to this carefully. Is it waiting to be informed, is it waiting to be told, or is it waiting to find knowledge which will then bring about a harmonious life? You follow?
I must answer that question when I say, 'I don't know'. Am I waiting for an answer when I say, 'I don't know'? (Inaudible) I don't know - we are talking about not knowing.
You can never know. Madame, no, please stick to one word, otherwise 'receptivity' means who is receiving. Just stick to what we have agreed to, which is, I don't know, you don't know.
Now what does that mean, not knowing? Does it mean that the mind is waiting to be told, expecting an answer, looking to somebody to say, 'This is right', or nobody can say to it, 'This is right, this is wrong'. It doesn't know.
Which is your mind? If I really don't know it and somebody tells me then I still won't know it... That's the whole point. Now when you say, 'I don't know', what takes place?
Go slowly. What takes place within the mind? (Inaudible) The mind is quiet, still.
What takes place when I say I am not looking for an answer, I am not expecting a thing, what goes on in the mind, sir? Watch it. (Inaudible) You have discarded whatever you have when you say, 'I don't know'.
Sir, when I say, 'I don't know', I find ideas... Therefore you - which means what? It seems to be the habit of conditioning trying to exert itself again, and I realise what it is trying to know... (inaudible) So your mind can never say, 'I don't know', because you are all full of ideas.
Right? It usually says I don't know, but perhaps. Yes.
I don't know but perhaps I do know a little bit. No, you are all playing games. (Inaudible) You know it is one of the most difficult things to say, 'I don't know'.
If you are really a great scientist you examine everything for the first time as though you didn't know, therefore you begin to discover. You follow? But if you come saying, I know a little bit, I don't know - you follow?
- then you discover nothing. Can you say, 'I really don't know how to live a life that is harmonious'? That means that you become extraordinarily humble, don't you - no?
You don't know any of this. Therefore a mind that does not know is enquiring into what is harmony. Right?
So what takes place in the mind that is completely not knowing? I can go on, you see, by myself I go on in my room, with all these questions and find out, but with you we don't travel together. How am I to help you to travel together?
Because you are full of ideas, aren't you? When I say, 'I don't know', I wonder. Why should you wonder?
What is there to wonder? (Inaudible) That's just it. Can you stay - stay - and say, 'I really don't know', and stay there?
No. (Inaudible) Yes. Not knowing is the sense of total attention... No, sir, don't translate it into something else.
Keep to one series of words. We said, what does it mean to know, first of all, what does it mean to know? I know you.
Wait, sir, listen. How impatient you people are. I say, 'I know you'.
What does that mean, the word 'to know', what does it mean? (Inaudible) I know you because I met you yesterday. There is the recollection of meeting you, and your name, your face, that recorded - I know.
'I know my wife'. What does that mean? - know.
Can I know anybody? You don't even... So I can never say I know somebody.
But we 'I know my wife'. (Inaudible) Oui, madame, but... You know your wife because your wife is what you know... That's analysis again. No, no, no, no, no.
Do listen to what I - when I see the danger of that word, 'I know', can I know my wife? I have slept with her, I have had children, sex, irritation, all the rest of it, and the image of her remains. And I say, 'I know her'.
I mean by that that I know the image about her which I have. I don't know her. Right?
So see what takes place - how dangerous that word is, 'to know'. The word, 'I know'. In the meantime she might have changed but I have this image of her that remains static, fixed.
So when I say, 'I know', it is the past. Right? So can my mind, when it says, 'I don't know' be free of the past?
Sir, I can come to that point where I realise that, and then the past starts to come in again. Wait, wait, first see what it means, sir. When I say, 'I know', knowledge implies... knowledge is the past, and I must have knowledge - to go from here to the house, to talk, there must be knowledge; and yet I see the danger of knowledge.
Right? Knowledge is the past - knowledge is the past, and with that I say, 'Can my mind ever be free of the past?' - which means the past image, past impressions, past memories, past hurts - you follow?
- conclusions, ideas, the whole of that. It is only then I can say, 'I don't know'. I don't know me, I don't know other people and I don't know me.
What do you mean you don't know other people? (Inaudible) I don't even know me... So I have to say again I don't know.
When you say, 'I don't know', does it mean that you are free from knowing as the past? So sir, look, our difficulty is that we live in the past, all our activities spring from the past, and we project that past into the future into the present. No?
This is so obvious. Now, that is part of our fragmentation. So can I ever say that I don't know?
And to say it honestly is to find the beauty of not knowing. You understand? Do you know what love is?
No. I don't know. Wait, wait, wait.
Do you know what love is? Vous avez compris, madame? Do you know what love is?
Why are you silent? (Inaudible) No, no. Don't you say to your friend, or to your husband, wife, girl, 'I love you'?
Don't you? No? Oh my gosh, you are all so quiet.
(Laughter) It seems to me that when I am in a state of not knowing... Madame, I am asking you a question. Then I learn, when I don't know the answer. When you don't know, but do you know what it means not to know?
I think so, but I don't know if I know. Do you believe in god? How silent, you see - when you touch the real things you become quiet because you are frightened.
So I want to find out, the mind says, what is love, they talk about it so much - love god, love humanity, I love my wife, I love my country - you follow? - what does it mean? I want to find out.
Don't you? You don't. To find out I must have energy, mustn't I?
So how do I have that energy? By not asserting, or introducing something which I am familiar with - they say love god, love is sex, love is happiness, love is beauty - you follow? - all those are distractions, wastage of energy, isn't it?
Can I put all that aside? I want to find out if there is such thing as god. I don't know.
Millions of people, the propagandists, the priests, the books, the everyday politician, and all the muckery - everybody talks about god, except perhaps the communists but they have their own gods. I want to find out. How do I find out?
I am burning with it, not just sitting there I want to find out - you understand? I want to find out if there is something real, and for that I must have tremendous energy. So I must first gather this energy, so I must find out how I waste energy.
You follow? I obviously waste energy when I believe in god. Right?