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krishnamurti_discussions

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What does it mean that man dying, or a woman, in a coffin, don't you react to it? Don't you say, 'What does it all mean, what does living mean, and what does dying mean?' Don't you ask that question?
(Inaudible) We are doing both sir, we are doing both. You see that death - your friend, your son, my brother, my uncle, whatever it is, I see death, a friend dying. And what does it mean to me, to you, somebody dying, a man killed so brutally and uselessly in Vietnam, what for?
And what is living? What is life? Don't you ask?
All right sir, let's begin. What does living mean to you? The actual living, the daily living - the office, the factory, the quarrels, the ambitions, the everlasting struggle in relationship, the brutality, the violence, the hopes, the distractions, the pleasures, fears, all that is living, earning a livelihood.
Isn't it? No? You agree to that?
That is part of it. It is partly. What is the other part?
(Inaudible) Sir, we are dealing with what actually is going on - the intellectual reasoning, the technology, the great immense progress science has made, medicine, anthropology, and my daily living, sorrow, endless conflict, with occasional joy and pleasure, vast memories, remembrance of things that are gone - all that is my life, isn't it, sir? All that can be said I always live, one always lives, in the field of the known - right? - in the field of the past.
That's our life, isn't it? Not only part, put everything in that area - your ambition, your frustration, your desire to be identified with something, your struggle, your conflict, having no love, wanting to be loved, loneliness, the expression of your technological knowledge, whether you can do it better, your relationship with your wife, husband, girl, whatever it is, the immense fears, the things that are hidden, which you read about in books, and try to identify from the book what is happening to yourself. Isn't that all your life, no?
Oh, god! Life is time, and death perhaps is going out of time. Life is time and death perhaps is going out of time.
I don't know, that's your idea. I am asking. We are going to find out, madame.
The moment you say, 'perhaps life is time and death is going beyond time', it is as good as saying, 'The grass is green'. You follow? Let us begin please.
How we try to avoid facing facts! Your life, and the life of human beings throughout the world, is a constant struggle, to earn a livelihood, to stay alive, disease, pain, trying to be moral, trying to behave properly, and rejecting behaviour and trying to do something totally different, worship this god, or that god, or be an atheist, or be a communist, socialist - that's all our life, isn't it? The whole field of it.
And we cling to that, don't we - no? Because that is the only thing we know. Everything is a speculation, isn't it?
So the mind avoids death because basically it doesn't know what is going to happen; basically, radically it says, 'I know the living' - which is however troublesome, however painful, however pleasurable, however agonising, destructive, that is all I know. And I hold on to that. I don't know the I can speculate, I can invent, I can rationalise, I can have marvellous beliefs about it, but the fact is I cling to the known.
No? My furniture, and I am the furniture when I identify myself with that piece of furniture when I say, 'It is mine', I have identified myself with that furniture, and therefore the furniture is me. No?
Oh, god! When I have identified myself with my house, that house is me, and so on. So the mind is always seeking security - right?
- in relationship, in something permanent. Land is permanent, real estate, having a house, having a piece of furniture, calling that person my wife, or my husband, this sense of stability, security. The mind is always demanding it and that security is within the field of the known - right?
- the known being knowledge, experience, memory. Are we together in all this? So one can say, by observing, that living is a great travail, with occasional flashes of something else, and death is the unknown.
And so there is a battle between the living, the known, and death the unknown. Can we proceed, please? The ancient people, Egyptians and others, tried to carry over into the other world which they believed in, all their pieces of furniture, ivory, beautiful masks, lovely jewellery and everything, slaves, paintings.
The Asiatics, including India, said, there is a permanent entity as the 'me', the soul, that will through righteous behaviour in the present, improve itself in the future life, so they believed in reincarnation - next life. And by that they meant a better life - always a better life. And though they believed that - they said what you sow you will reap in the next life - but all those were just words because their behaviour in daily life was just ordinary, brutal, envious, you know, all that.
So the belief didn't matter a hoot. What mattered was their enjoyment, or their pleasures, what is in the field of the known. Now when you observe all that, from the ancient of time to the present day, those who believe in the resurrection, and those who believe in reincarnation, those who only worship the present, whatever that may be, or worship the State and so on, are always living in this life which is the known.
Right? So let's begin with that. What is it that is known, to which we cling?
You are following, sir? I cling to my life, why, what for? Because I am afraid of emptiness.
I am afraid of emptiness. Do you know what that means, or is that just a lot of words? Are you clinging to that?
You can't, you can't talk! Look, sir, why does the mind cling to the known and avoid that thing which is called death? The doctors, the medicines, can keep the body going for another fifty years, drug it when it is terribly painful, cancerous.
And they can keep the body surviving much longer, with the agreement of the patient, or with the agreement of the relatives. Now why does the mind, your mind, your desire, everything, why does it cling to this? I think I enjoy my life.
I think I enjoy my life. Is that the only thing you have, you just enjoy your life and therefore you cling to it? I realise there is also pain.
So you realise there is pain, there is frustration, there is everything including enjoyment, so you cling to that. What makes the mind cling to something which is so transient? You follow sir?
I might have pleasure today, and out of that pleasure the pain comes tomorrow, and I know this enjoyment is so fleeting, gone, but yet I cling to it - why? It is the only thing I know. Why does the mind cling to something that is so transient?
It is the only thing we have got. It is the only thing you've got. What have you got?
You don't examine it even, you just state it. What is it you have got - old age, all the trouble of old age, disease, pain? It is the only thing we know.
I know that very well, sir. I am asking, why the mind, your mind, clings to something that you call the known, with all the bubbles, with all the pain, with all the fury inside that? Is it because the known gives it security?
It gives us life. So you call life this battle, this process, is that it? We do.
Yes, sir, I know we do. (In Italian) No. Look.
He says your question is impossible to answer - our friend, the Italian says, Impossible question! No, sir. If in death you found something permanent, secure, you would love that too, wouldn't you?
So the mind wants however fleeting, however painful, however destructive, violent, enjoyable, all that, in that there is some security, some sense of survival, some sense of knowing. The known gives to the mind a sense of safety. Right?
That's obvious, no? And so the mind clings to it. Now, wait a minute, can you know death in the same way as you know living, to which you cling?
You understand? That is the problem. First we don't know death... No, sir, just listen to what I have said before you ask that.
I know what living is, I have lived it for thirty, forty, eighty years. I know all the content of it, the beauty of the hills, the meadows, the movement of the leaves, the tranquil seas, I have known all that, seen everything of it, I know it, I have felt it, I have lived it, I have suffered, I have been through all kinds of experiences, moods, pleasures, pain. I know it very well, so I cling to that.
Can I also know in the same way as I know this area, this thing called death, can I know that too? Then - you follow? - if I know both then there is no problem.
You understand what I am talking about? Have you understood what I have said, sir? No?
Wait. I've said... Listen.
Can I know, as I know living, what it means - death? You understand my question? No.
Don't say no. I know what living is. Right?
We all know it. And can I also know this thing called death? I don't know, I am going to find out.
I have never said, I will find out what living is, I have accepted it. You understand, sir? I have accepted it, with all the pain, with all the dirt, with all the squalor, with all the brutalities, fasting, starvation, everything, I know what all that means.
Now can I also know this enormous thing, and this mysterious thing, called death? Can I know it? And by asking that question I am going to find out.
Right? I am going to enquire. Are you following sir?
I am going to enquire. Now let's enquire. You understand, sir?
I have really never enquired into living, into this whole process of existence, I have accepted it, I have suffered in it, I have gone through hell with it. And can I also know this thing called death, investigate it, because I have never investigated living, only I have accepted it, and I have accepted death and never investigated it. You understand, sir?
You see I have a I have not investigated living, what it really means, I have not investigated what death means. Right? So we are going to investigate both.
You understand? The living and the dying. Is all existence - listen to the echoes - is all living this battle?
Battle means pleasure, pain, all that. In enquiring - you understand? - I see that is not living, that is a terrible state to be in.
Right sir? Oh, for god's sake, come with me! I have investigated it, I have explored it, I say, why should I live, why should human beings live this way?
This is so totally wrong. And I will find a way of living entirely different from that. My investigation into the living, into existence has shown me, the way that one lives, the way that one thinks, has no meaning.
And by investigating very, very deeply, I find out that there is a meaning entirely different. I find out for myself, I have gone into it. And I say death, I must also enquire into it, I must find out what it really means - not be frightened, not put it away, not have explanations, say there is incarnation, there is no... - nothing.
I am going to enquire, find out. Right sir? Are you following what I am saying?
Oh no! It's too hot to repeat all this! Life is not just travail, there are a few flashes of something else... No, sir.
I said a few flashes of something else, which is joy, pleasure, enjoyment, delight, kindliness, generosity. I included all that, it is not something else outside. Must everything be explained?
Look sir, let's proceed. As a human being, living in this world, one has investigated into what is so-called living. This living is a constant pursuit of pleasure, avoiding pain, laborious work year after year, the responsibility of a family, sexual pleasures, the pain, the birth, the frustrations, the agonies, the despairs, the repentance, the forgiveness, all that, is what we call living.
And I won't accept that as living. We human beings have accepted it, go with it, but I say, this is not living. So I have investigated it, I've gone into it, found in investigating, my mind has kept without any motive, therefore no direction, therefore it has found a meaning - whatever that meaning - leave it for the moment.
And I have been frightened of death because I have never enquired into it, gone into it, found out what it means. And I want to find out, and I have gone into it. You follow?
Now my mind, this mind, has enquired into the living, and what it means to die. So it says, both living and dying are the same. I say that, not you.
Right? So let us enquire, in both fields - the living field, the living area and the dying area. You understand sir, now?
Don't let's go back and forth. Have you understood my question, please? Have you enquired deeply into the meaning of living?
I know you have accepted living as pain, you know, all that. Is that living? You have to die to it.
No, sir, don't die to anything, just watch it sir. Enquire, find out. You have got a mind, you have got a tremendous experience, you have got all kinds of knowledge, find out whether this is living - going to the office, you understand sir?
This terrible thing man has made of life. That is not living. And you can find the meaning of living only when you discard totally the structure which man has put together - man, woman, all that.
Right? Oh, come on, sir! So unless you find the meaning of living deeply, and therefore merely accept existence as it is, then you are incapable of enquiring into death.
You follow what I am saying? Because in the enquiry of living you will find how to enquire into death. They are not two separate things.
(In French) Look. He says we don't put passion into all this, into this enquiry, as you do, we play with it. And how do we get this passion?
Put away, push away? I am not, sir, you are missing the whole thing, I'm not putting... No, sir. Listen, sir, please listen.
Don't say, 'What to do? ', don't say, 'I must reject', don't say, 'I must accept'. The life that you lead, is that a living?
Is that a way of an intelligent, sane, human being, is that the way to live? What do you say? Why don't you answer that?
It is not living. All right, if it is not living what are you going to do about it? Do you accept this way of living?
If you don't, what is the next step? Dying to my body. Don't quote me please!
I want to find out another way of living. You want to find another way of living. How do you find out?
If this is not the way of living, and you want to find another way of living, how do you find out? You can only find out by enquiring, can't you? Through enquiry, which means a mind that is capable of looking without any direction, that means without any motive.
When you have a motive it is directed, and therefore distorted. Right, sir? So a mind that must enquire into the living and say, this is a terrible way to live, it is a meaningless life that one leads, to enquire into that you must have a mind that says, I have no motive in my enquiry, therefore I am free to enquire.
Right? Like a scientist, he looks through a microscope or whatever he does, and he doesn't come with a motive, he is only looking at what is taking place under the microscope, or whatever he does. So similarly I have this problem.
I will not accept this way of living under any circumstances. I don't want to live that way. Therefore my mind says, how am I to enquire into this, is there a different way of living?
To find a different way of living, and therefore a different meaning of existence, I must come to it with a mind that says, I am not prejudiced, I am not frightened, I don't know what is going to happen, but I am going to find out. That means a mind that has no fear what it is going to discover. Right?
So in the same way the mind has to enquire into death. And if you are frightened it can't enquire. Right?
If you say, 'Oh, I must survive, I must have a next life to write a beastly little book', or become a little better - it has no meaning. So my mind - please listen to this - to enquire into these two aspects of living it must be capable of enquiring without a motive, it must also be capable of looking, enquiring, making deep exploration, there must be no fear. Right, sir?
So that is the primary importance in enquiry - no motive and no fear. Right? May I go into this a little more?
Don't accept a thing that the speaker is saying. He has no authority. He is not your guru.
You are not his followers. Right? We are enquiring.
The way we are living has no meaning, and I want to find out what is the meaning of living, if there is a different way of living. I see there is a different way of living when there is no division in action, in thought, in the observer and the observed. You are following all this?
Then there is no division, I am not a Hindu, or a Muslim, or a Jew, or an Arab. Right? I won't belong to any sect, any group, or commit myself to any action.
Right? So what do I do? I live somehow.
Living, earning some money, having some clothes, shelter that becomes irrelevant, I will somehow find it, I won't make that into the most primary thing. So I begin to enquire. I see the truth that where there is division in myself, in my action, in the division of tradition, of nationalities, governments, there must be conflict.
That is an absolute truth - right? - not as an idea, in myself. Thinking one thing, doing another, that is a contradiction, division, therefore it will inevitably produce conflict.
And that's our whole life - different varieties but that is the whole pattern. Now I say to myself, I enquire, why does this division exist, is it artificial, inherited, traditional, reasonable, logical, or is it something god-given? I see it is none of that.
Thought has created this; thought has created this division, both outwardly and inwardly. So I say thought. Right?
You are following all this? Please. man has lived by thought, and thought has created it.
Thought has put together all this terrible world, with their priests, with their gods, with their social structures - you follow? - the whole thing. You can't just live by thought, all those feelings...
I include all that, the whole thing. Of course. I may have a feeling, unless I recognise that feeling there is no feeling.
I won't go into that for the moment. (Inaudible) Is there? (Inaudible) Sir, the tiger kills the deer, the tiger, kills the deer.
That is its way of living. The deer may object to it. But it is the natural way of living for the tiger.
Right? Please, watch this in your life, not tigers and nature, look at it in yourself. For god's sake!