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And I'm Alex Chadwick. Coming up views on the Iraq war from the American town near the home base of the Army's 101st Airborne Division. | and; i'm alex chadwick coming up, views on the iraq war from the american town near. the home base of the army's 101st airborne | And I'm Alex, Chadwick Coming up views on the Iraq, war from the American town near the; home base of the, Army's 101st Airborne | and i'm alex chadwick. coming up views on the iraq war from the american town near the home base of the army's 101st airborne division. |
First, in Iraq a large military offensive continues for a second day around Samarra. The Pentagon says 1,500 U.S. and Iraqi troops are involved in that operation. It's an effort to break up a concentration of suspected insurgents 60 miles north of Baghdad. | first in iraq a large military offensive continues for a, second, day around samarra the pentagon says 1,500 u.s and iraqi troops are involved in that operation it's an effort to break up a concentration of suspected. insurgents 60 miles north of | First in, Iraq a large military offensive continues for, a second day. around Samarra The Pentagon says 1,500 U.S and Iraqi. troops are involved in that operation It's. an effort to break up a concentration of suspected insurgents 60 miles north. of | first, in iraq a large military offensive continues for a second day around samarra. the pentagon says 1,500 u.s. and iraqi troops are involved in that operation. it's an effort to break up a concentration of suspected insurgents 60 miles north of baghdad. |
Earlier today, Lieutenant General Peter Chiarelli briefed reporters from Baghdad. He said this operation was primarily conducted by Iraqi forces. | earlier today lieutenant general peter chiarelli briefed reporters from baghdad. he said this operation was primarily conducted by iraqi | Earlier today Lieutenant General Peter Chiarelli briefed reporters from Baghdad He, said, this operation was primarily conducted by Iraqi | earlier today, lieutenant general peter chiarelli briefed reporters from baghdad. he said this operation was primarily conducted by iraqi forces. |
The amount of resistance we had was very, very light. I think the last count I had is that we have 31 individuals that we have detained. We found what you would expect to find out there, and we'll continue to look for caches and any other terrorists and foreign fighters that might be in the area. | the amount of resistance we had was very very light i think the. last count i had is that we have 31 individuals, that. we have detained we found what you would expect to find out there. and we'll continue to look for, caches and any other terrorists and foreign. fighters that might be in the | The amount of resistance we had. was very very light I think the last count I had is that we have 31 individuals that we, have, detained We found what you would expect to find out, there and we'll continue. to look for caches, and any other. terrorists, and foreign fighters that might be in the | the amount of resistance we had was very, very light. i think the last count i had is that we have 31 individuals that we have detained. we found what you would expect to find out there, and we'll continue to look for caches and any other terrorists and foreign fighters that might be in the area. |
This is DAY TO DAY. I'm Alex Chadwick. | this is day to day, i'm alex | This is DAY TO DAY I'm Alex | this is day to day. i'm alex chadwick. |
Coming up, the young comedian Dane Cook. We'll listen. | coming up the young comedian dane cook, we'll | Coming up the young comedian Dane Cook We'll | coming up, the young comedian dane cook. we'll listen. |
But first, the Vatican this week released its long-awaited document concerning homosexuality and the priesthood. The document says men with, quote, "deep-seated homosexual tendencies" should not be ordained. NPR's Jason DeRose spoke with Catholic seminary professors and current and former students for their reaction. Here's his report. | but first the vatican this, week, released its long-awaited document concerning homosexuality and the priesthood the document says men. with quote "deep-seated homosexual, tendencies" should not be ordained. npr's jason derose; spoke with catholic seminary, professors. and current and former students for their. reaction here's his | But first the Vatican, this, week released its long-awaited document concerning homosexuality and the priesthood The document says men with, quote "deep-seated homosexual tendencies" should not be. ordained NPR's, Jason DeRose spoke with Catholic, seminary professors and. current and former students for their reaction Here's his | but first, the vatican this week released its long-awaited document concerning homosexuality and the priesthood. the document says men with, quote, "deep-seated homosexual tendencies" should not be ordained. npr's jason derose spoke with catholic seminary professors and current and former students for their reaction. here's his report. |
(Soundbite of chapel service) | (soundbite of chapel | (Soundbite of chapel | (soundbite of chapel service) |
Absolutely. You can't start thinking about the victim or the victim's family and do your job adequately. That's why Marijane, in particular, built this wall around herself. Now, not all public defenders feel the same way that she does. But that is not to say that you can't have compassion for a victim of a crime or a victim's family. But when you're in court or when Marijane is in court, she has a singularity of purpose, and that's to do the best job for her client that she can possibly do, and she wants to win that case. | absolutely you can't start thinking about the victim or the victim's family and do your job adequately that's why, marijane in particular built this wall around herself now not all, public defenders feel the same way, that she does but that is not to say that you can't. have compassion for a victim of a crime or a victim's family but when you're in, court or when. marijane is in court she. has a singularity, of purpose and that's to do the best; job for her client that. she can possibly, do and she. wants to win that | Absolutely You can't start thinking about the victim or the victim's family and do your job adequately That's why Marijane in particular, built this wall around herself Now not all public defenders feel the same way that, she does But that is not to say that you can't have compassion for a. victim, of a crime or a victim's family But when you're in court or when Marijane is, in court she; has a singularity of purpose, and that's, to do the best job for her client that she can possibly do and she wants to win that | absolutely. you can't start thinking about the victim or the victim's family and do your job adequately. that's why marijane, in particular, built this wall around herself. now, not all public defenders feel the same way that she does. but that is not to say that you can't have compassion for a victim of a crime or a victim's family. but when you're in court or when marijane is in court, she has a singularity of purpose, and that's to do the best job for her client that she can possibly do, and she wants to win that case. |
Regardless of whether she thinks he did it or not? | regardless of whether she thinks, he did. it or | Regardless of whether she thinks, he did it or | regardless of whether she thinks he did it or not? |
Regardless. Now, I - because I'm a journalist, I was able to connect with the family. And I'm grateful that they even took the time to talk with me because they knew I was working a book - working on a book about the public defenders. But - so I didn't have that emotional distance. I - I'm a sensitive and compassionate person. And I spent some very difficult time talking with the parents of the slain officer and the widow, and saw a side of this case that Marijane and her co-counsel did not get to see. | regardless now i - because i'm a journalist. i. was able to connect with the family and i'm grateful; that they even took the time, to talk with me because they knew i was working a book - working on a book about, the public, defenders, but - so i didn't have that emotional distance i - i'm a sensitive and compassionate person, and i spent some very difficult time talking with the parents of the slain officer and the widow and saw a side of this case that marijane and her co-counsel. did not get to. | Regardless Now I - because I'm, a journalist I was able to connect, with the family And. I'm grateful that they even took the time to talk with me because they knew I was working a book - working on a book about the public defenders But - so I didn't have that emotional distance I - I'm a sensitive and compassionate person And I spent some very difficult time talking. with the parents of the slain. officer and the widow and saw. a side of this case that Marijane and her co-counsel did not get to | regardless. now, i - because i'm a journalist, i was able to connect with the family. and i'm grateful that they even took the time to talk with me because they knew i was working a book - working on a book about the public defenders. but - so i didn't have that emotional distance. i - i'm a sensitive and compassionate person. and i spent some very difficult time talking with the parents of the slain officer and the widow, and saw a side of this case that marijane and her co-counsel did not get to see. |
We're talking with Kevin Davis about his new book, "Defending the Damned: Inside Chicago's Cook County Public Defender's Office." If you'd like to join us, 800-989-8255. E-mail - [email protected]. And let's begin with Jonathan(ph). Jonathan is calling us from Aspen, Colorado. | we're talking with kevin davis about his new book "defending the damned: inside chicago's cook county public defender's office" if you'd like to join us 800-989-8255. e-mail - [email protected] and, let's begin with jonathan(ph). jonathan is calling; us from aspen | We're talking with Kevin Davis about his new book "Defending the Damned: Inside Chicago's Cook County Public Defender's Office" If, you'd. like to join us 800-989-8255. E-mail - [email protected] And let's begin with Jonathan(ph). Jonathan is calling us from Aspen | we're talking with kevin davis about his new book, "defending the damned: inside chicago's cook county public defender's office." if you'd like to join us, 800-989-8255. e-mail - [email protected]. and let's begin with jonathan(ph). jonathan is calling us from aspen, colorado. |
Yes. Hi, how are you? | yes hi how are | Yes Hi how are | yes. hi, how are you? |
I'm well. Thanks. | i'm well | I'm well | i'm well. thanks. |
Yeah. I was a public defender in Chicago for eight years in the '90s and then subsequently moved out here. And now, I run a legal aide agency that primarily serves victims. | yeah i was a public defender in chicago, for eight years in, the '90s; and, then, subsequently moved out here and now i run a legal aide agency that primarily serves | Yeah I was a public defender in Chicago for eight years in the '90s and then subsequently moved out here And now I run a legal aide agency that primarily serves | yeah. i was a public defender in chicago for eight years in the '90s and then subsequently moved out here. and now, i run a legal aide agency that primarily serves victims. |
And why did you leave Chicago and the Public Defender's Office? | and why did you leave chicago. and the public. defender's | And why did you leave Chicago and the Public Defender's | and why did you leave chicago and the public defender's office? |
Part of it was just I really preferred to be in the mountains, but part of it was also a manifestation of just ultimate burnout. I said when my burnout would reach four digits then I would want to move on and do something else. | part of it was just i. really preferred to be in the mountains but part of it was also a manifestation of, just ultimate burnout i said when my burnout, would reach four digits then i would want to move; on and do something, | Part of it was, just I really preferred to be in the mountains but part of it was also a manifestation of just ultimate. burnout I said when my burnout would reach four digits then I would want, to move on and do something. | part of it was just i really preferred to be in the mountains, but part of it was also a manifestation of just ultimate burnout. i said when my burnout would reach four digits then i would want to move on and do something else. |
And what told you it had gone past three digits? | and what, told you it had gone past, three | And what told you it had, gone, past three | and what told you it had gone past three digits? |
I don't think there was any precise case. But it's certainly a challenging work. It's a rewarding work. But it certainly wears on you to see the tragedy of human society… | i don't think there was any precise case, but it's certainly a challenging work it's a rewarding work but it certainly wears on you to see the tragedy of human | I don't think; there was any precise case But it's certainly a challenging work It's a rewarding work But it certainly wears on you to see the tragedy of human | i don't think there was any precise case. but it's certainly a challenging work. it's a rewarding work. but it certainly wears on you to see the tragedy of human society… |
Yeah. | yeah. |
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…over and over again every day. | …over and over again every | …over and over, again every | …over and over again every day. |
Did you keep track of your batting average? | did you keep. track of your batting | Did you keep track of your batting | did you keep track of your batting average? |
No, I think that what we kept on doing is redefining what the batting average was. So it wasn't a matter of how many cases you've won or lost, but whether or not your client was treated fairly compared to what the facts(ph) were against them. | no i think that what we kept on; doing is redefining what the batting average was so it wasn't a matter of how many cases you've won or lost but whether or not your client was treated fairly compared to what the, facts(ph) were against | No I think that what we kept on doing is redefining what the batting average was So it wasn't a matter of how many cases you've won or lost but whether or not your client was treated fairly compared. to what the facts(ph) were against | no, i think that what we kept on doing is redefining what the batting average was. so it wasn't a matter of how many cases you've won or lost, but whether or not your client was treated fairly compared to what the facts(ph) were against them. |
Which suggest you didn't win very often? | which suggest you didn't win very | Which suggest you didn't win very | which suggest you didn't win very often? |
I would say in the Public Defender's Office, my win or loss record probably was less than in private practice. And part of that was the ability to select cases and also part of it… | i; would say. in the public defender's office my win or loss record probably, was less than; in private practice and part of that was the ability to. select cases and also part of | I would say in the Public. Defender's. Office my win or loss record probably was less than in private practice And part of that was the. ability to select cases and also part; of | i would say in the public defender's office, my win or loss record probably was less than in private practice. and part of that was the ability to select cases and also part of it… |
Sure. | sure. |
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…is just the overwhelming caseload the public defenders have. | …is, just the overwhelming. caseload the public. defenders | …is, just the overwhelming caseload the public defenders; | …is just the overwhelming caseload the public defenders have. |
And now, representing primarily victims, you see the other side? | and now representing primarily victims you see the other | And now representing primarily victims you see the other | and now, representing primarily victims, you see the other side? |
I think I see both sides. I don't think my perspective has changed. I saw myself as public defender, part of what our role was to make sure the system worked, to try to make sure. In fact, I have friends who were officers even when I was a defense attorney who kind of saw that what our role was wasn't to get people off as much as to make sure that they did a good job, and if they did it right, there would be a conviction. And if they did it wrong, the client wouldn't be convicted. | i think i see both sides i don't think my perspective has changed i saw myself as public defender part of what our role was to make sure the system. worked to try to make sure in fact i have friends who were officers even when i was a defense attorney who kind of saw that what our role was wasn't to get people off as much as to make sure that they did a good job, and if they did it right there. would be a conviction, and if they did it wrong the. client wouldn't be | I think I. see both sides I don't think. my perspective has. changed I saw myself as public defender part of what our role was to make sure the system worked. to try to make, sure In fact I have friends who were officers even when I was a defense attorney who kind of saw that what our role was wasn't, to get people off as much as to. make sure that they did a good job and if they did, it right there would be a conviction And if they did it wrong the client wouldn't be | i think i see both sides. i don't think my perspective has changed. i saw myself as public defender, part of what our role was to make sure the system worked, to try to make sure. in fact, i have friends who were officers even when i was a defense attorney who kind of saw that what our role was wasn't to get people off as much as to make sure that they did a good job, and if they did it right, there would be a conviction. and if they did it wrong, the client wouldn't be convicted. |
Jonathan, thanks very much. It's interesting. | jonathan. thanks very. much it's | Jonathan thanks very much It's | jonathan, thanks very much. it's interesting. |
Sure. Bye-bye. | sure | Sure | sure. bye-bye. |
Appreciate it. And Kevin Davis, it's interesting. You also, at the end of your book, go back and talked to several of the people you talked to during the book, who have since decided to leave the Chicago Public Defender's Office as well. | appreciate. it and kevin davis it's. interesting you also at the end of your book go back and talked to several of the people you talked to, during; the book who have since decided to leave, the chicago, public defender's office as | Appreciate it And Kevin Davis. it's interesting You also at the end of your book go, back and talked to several of the people you. talked to, during the. book who have since decided to leave the, Chicago Public Defender's Office; as | appreciate it. and kevin davis, it's interesting. you also, at the end of your book, go back and talked to several of the people you talked to during the book, who have since decided to leave the chicago public defender's office as well. |
Yes. And those were members of the murder task force. And what happened to some of these lawyers is, just as the caller said, you do get burned out, particularly in a murder task force, because you are representing potential death penalty cases. And all of them told me that the responsibility, the immense responsibility that they felt when their clients' lives were literally in their hands was often just too much to take, day after day, year after year. There was one lawyer in particular, Todd Musburger, who had to defend a client accused of an awful crime, who - it was a woman, a pregnant or a woman on her way to a lamas class. And she was kidnapped and held in the trunk and murdered. And… | yes, and those were members of the murder, task force and what happened to some of these; lawyers is just as, the caller said you do get burned out particularly in, a murder task force because. you are representing potential death penalty cases and. all, of them told me that, the responsibility the immense responsibility that they felt when their clients' lives were literally in their hands was often just too much to take day after; day year after year there was one lawyer in particular todd musburger who had to defend a client accused of an awful crime who. - it was a woman a pregnant or a woman on her way to a lamas class and she was kidnapped and held in the trunk and murdered, | Yes And those were members of; the, murder task, force And what. happened to some of these lawyers. is just as the caller said, you do get burned out particularly in a murder task. force because you are representing potential death penalty cases And all of them told. me that, the responsibility the immense responsibility, that they, felt when their. clients' lives were. literally in their, hands was often just too much to take. day after day year after year There was one lawyer. in particular Todd Musburger who. had to defend a client accused. of an awful crime who, - it was a woman a pregnant or a woman on her, way to a lamas class And, she was kidnapped and held in the trunk and murdered | yes. and those were members of the murder task force. and what happened to some of these lawyers is, just as the caller said, you do get burned out, particularly in a murder task force, because you are representing potential death penalty cases. and all of them told me that the responsibility, the immense responsibility that they felt when their clients' lives were literally in their hands was often just too much to take, day after day, year after year. there was one lawyer in particular, todd musburger, who had to defend a client accused of an awful crime, who - it was a woman, a pregnant or a woman on her way to a lamas class. and she was kidnapped and held in the trunk and murdered. and… |
Linda Goldstone? | linda | Linda | linda goldstone? |
Linda Goldstone. The defendant was named Hernando Williams. It was one of the first cases, death penalty cases that came back after it was brought back here in Illinois. Todd gave this his all. And his closing argument, which was around the time of the holidays, was just so impassioned and had taken so much out of him that he just felt he gave it his all. And the jury came back in less than an hour and voted to kill Hernando Williams. And Todd Musburger knew at that point that he just could not do that any longer. | linda goldstone, the defendant was named hernando williams it was one of the first cases death penalty cases that came back after it. was brought back here in illinois todd gave this his all and his closing argument which was around the time, of, the holidays was just so impassioned and had taken so much out of him that he, just felt he gave, it, his all, and the, jury came back in, less than an hour and voted to kill. hernando, williams and; todd musburger knew; at that point that he. just could not do that, any | Linda Goldstone The defendant was named Hernando Williams It was. one of the first cases death penalty cases that came back after it was brought back. here in. Illinois Todd gave this his all And his closing; argument which was around the; time of the holidays was. just so impassioned. and had taken so much out of him, that he just felt he gave it his all And the jury came back in less. than, an hour and voted to kill. Hernando Williams And Todd Musburger knew. at, that point that he just could, not do that any | linda goldstone. the defendant was named hernando williams. it was one of the first cases, death penalty cases that came back after it was brought back here in illinois. todd gave this his all. and his closing argument, which was around the time of the holidays, was just so impassioned and had taken so much out of him that he just felt he gave it his all. and the jury came back in less than an hour and voted to kill hernando williams. and todd musburger knew at that point that he just could not do that any longer. |
Because he felt as horrific is the crime was that Hernando Williams was convicted of, that he was a human being. And Todd sat next to him. He felt his breath. He felt the blood pulsing through his veins. He knew that this was a real human being. And he may not had been able to be as this passionate as some of the other public defenders are, because he felt a very personal stake in what he was doing. And just left the office after that. | because he felt as. horrific is the crime was that hernando, williams was convicted of that he was a human being and todd sat next to him he felt his breath he felt the blood pulsing through his veins he knew that this was a real human, being and he may not had been able to be as this passionate as some of, the. other public defenders. are because he felt. a very personal stake in what he was, doing and just left the office. after | Because he felt as. horrific is the crime was, that Hernando Williams was. convicted of that he, was a human. being, And Todd sat next to him He felt his breath He felt the blood pulsing through. his veins He knew that; this. was a real human being And he may not had been able to be as this passionate as some of the other public. defenders are because he felt a very personal stake in what he, was doing And just left the office after | because he felt as horrific is the crime was that hernando williams was convicted of, that he was a human being. and todd sat next to him. he felt his breath. he felt the blood pulsing through his veins. he knew that this was a real human being. and he may not had been able to be as this passionate as some of the other public defenders are, because he felt a very personal stake in what he was doing. and just left the office after that. |
Let's see if we can get another caller on the line. This is John(ph). John with us in Portsmouth, New Hampshire. | let's see if we can, get another caller on the line this is john(ph). john with us in portsmouth new | Let's see if we can get another; caller on the line This is John(ph). John with us in Portsmouth New | let's see if we can get another caller on the line. this is john(ph). john with us in portsmouth, new hampshire. |
Hi. | hi. |
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Hi. Go ahead please. | hi go ahead | Hi Go ahead | hi. go ahead please. |
Hi. | hi. |
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Yeah. Kevin Davis, you point out they're obviously unpopular with the cops sometimes, certainly with prosecutors and with victims sometimes, but even their own clients don't like public defenders. | yeah kevin davis you point out they're obviously unpopular with the cops sometimes certainly with prosecutors, and with victims sometimes but even their own clients don't like public | Yeah Kevin Davis you point out they're obviously unpopular with the cops sometimes certainly with prosecutors and with. victims sometimes but even their own clients; don't like public | yeah. kevin davis, you point out they're obviously unpopular with the cops sometimes, certainly with prosecutors and with victims sometimes, but even their own clients don't like public defenders. |
They may make bad decisions, they may deserve to go to jail for a time, but they don't necessarily deserve to be judged for life as evil or good, because that's not the context in which human nature survive. It doesn't - it's just not real life. But I think the press wants to make it bad, and I think our society wants to make it bad, because we want to hate the person that did the crime. | they may; make bad decisions they may deserve to, go to jail, for a time but they don't necessarily deserve to be judged for life as evil or good because that's not the context in which human nature survive it doesn't - it's just not real life but i think the press wants to make it bad and i think our society wants to make it bad because we want to hate the person that. did the | They may make bad decisions they may, deserve to go to jail for a time but they. don't necessarily deserve, to be judged for life as evil or good because. that's not the, context in which human, nature survive It doesn't - it's just not real life But I; think the. press wants to make it bad and I think our, society wants to. make it bad because we want to hate the person that did the | they may make bad decisions, they may deserve to go to jail for a time, but they don't necessarily deserve to be judged for life as evil or good, because that's not the context in which human nature survive. it doesn't - it's just not real life. but i think the press wants to make it bad, and i think our society wants to make it bad, because we want to hate the person that did the crime. |
Interesting. Going back to the case you write so much about Kevin Davis, the public defender of Marijane Placek, starts out not liking her client very much and actually doming to change her mind so much. | interesting going back to the case you write so much about; kevin davis the public defender; of marijane placek starts. out not liking her client very much and actually doming to change her mind so | Interesting, Going back to the case you write so much about Kevin Davis the public defender of Marijane Placek starts out not liking her client very much and actually doming to change her mind so | interesting. going back to the case you write so much about kevin davis, the public defender of marijane placek, starts out not liking her client very much and actually doming to change her mind so much. |
She did. And Aloysius Oliver was not typical in some ways, because he actually had a chance to go to college. He was somebody who did well in school. But - and I did interview Oliver later on. And he admitted to me that the pulse of the street and so-called thug life were stronger than the pulse of going to college and getting an education. He was smart. He read - while he was in jail awaiting his trial - sophisticated books, all sorts, fiction and non-fiction. And I think what did frustrate Marijane about that was, here was a guy who had some brains and made some really bad choices. | she did and aloysius, oliver was not typical in some ways because he actually had a, chance. to go to college he was somebody who did well in school but - and i did interview oliver later on and he admitted to me that. the pulse of the street, and so-called thug life were stronger than the pulse of going to college and getting an education he was smart, he read, - while he was in, jail awaiting his trial - sophisticated books, all, sorts fiction; and non-fiction and i think, what did frustrate marijane about, that was here was a guy who had some brains and made some really bad | She did And Aloysius Oliver was not typical in some ways because, he actually had a chance to go to college He was somebody who. did well in school But - and I did interview Oliver later on And he admitted to me that; the, pulse of the street and so-called thug life were stronger than the pulse of going to college and getting an, education He was smart He read - while he was in jail, awaiting his trial - sophisticated books, all sorts fiction and non-fiction And I think what did, frustrate Marijane about that was here was a guy, who. had some brains and, made some really bad | she did. and aloysius oliver was not typical in some ways, because he actually had a chance to go to college. he was somebody who did well in school. but - and i did interview oliver later on. and he admitted to me that the pulse of the street and so-called thug life were stronger than the pulse of going to college and getting an education. he was smart. he read - while he was in jail awaiting his trial - sophisticated books, all sorts, fiction and non-fiction. and i think what did frustrate marijane about that was, here was a guy who had some brains and made some really bad choices. |
Sound familiar, John. | sound familiar | Sound familiar | sound familiar, john. |
It does. | it | It | it does. |
Yeah. | yeah. |
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Thank you very much. | thank you very | Thank, you, very | thank you very much. |
Thanks very much for the call. | thanks very much for the | Thanks very much for the | thanks very much for the call. |
We're going to take more of your calls with Kevin Davis about his book, "Defending the Damned." We'll talk more about what these public defenders do and why they do it, 800-989-8255, 800-989-TALK. Email us - [email protected]. I'm Neal Conan. This is the TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News. | we're going to take more of your calls with, kevin; davis about his book "defending the damned" we'll, talk more about what these, public defenders do and why they. do it 800-989-8255, 800-989-talk. email us; - [email protected] i'm neal conan this, is. the, talk of the nation from. npr | We're going to take more, of your calls with Kevin Davis about his book "Defending the Damned" We'll talk more about what these public defenders do and why; they do it 800-989-8255, 800-989-TALK. Email us - [email protected] I'm Neal Conan; This is the TALK OF THE NATION from NPR | we're going to take more of your calls with kevin davis about his book, "defending the damned." we'll talk more about what these public defenders do and why they do it, 800-989-8255, 800-989-talk. email us - [email protected]. i'm neal conan. this is the talk of the nation from npr news. |
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This is TALK OF THE NATION. I'm Neal Conan in Washington. Ken Rudin, our political junkie, weighs in a bit later. If you have questions about this week in politics, and this question swirling around New York mayor Michael Bloomberg, will he or won't he? E-mail us, [email protected]. | this is talk of the nation i'm neal conan in washington ken rudin our political junkie weighs in a bit later if you have questions about this week in politics and this question swirling around new york mayor michael bloomberg will he or won't he? e-mail us | This is TALK OF THE, NATION I'm Neal Conan in Washington Ken Rudin our. political junkie weighs in a bit later If you have questions about this week in politics and this question swirling around New York mayor Michael Bloomberg will he or won't he? E-mail, us | this is talk of the nation. i'm neal conan in washington. ken rudin, our political junkie, weighs in a bit later. if you have questions about this week in politics, and this question swirling around new york mayor michael bloomberg, will he or won't he? e-mail us, [email protected]. |
Right now, Kevin Davis is with us. He spent five years following an elite group of public defenders in Chicago's Cook County, trying to find out why they defend some of the worst criminals in the system. What he learned is the subject of his new book, "Defending the Damned: Inside Chicago's Cook County Public Defender's Office." | right now kevin davis is with us he; spent five years following an elite group of public defenders in chicago's cook. county trying to find out why they defend some of the worst criminals in the system what he learned is the. subject of his new book "defending the damned: inside chicago's cook county public defender's | Right now Kevin Davis is with us He spent five years following an elite group of, public defenders in Chicago's Cook County trying to find out why they defend some of the; worst criminals in the system What he learned is the subject of his, new book "Defending, the; Damned: Inside Chicago's Cook County Public Defender's | right now, kevin davis is with us. he spent five years following an elite group of public defenders in chicago's cook county, trying to find out why they defend some of the worst criminals in the system. what he learned is the subject of his new book, "defending the damned: inside chicago's cook county public defender's office." |
You can read about the huge odds stacked up against public defenders in an excerpt we've posted online. That's at npr.org/talk. If you have an experience as a public defender or as one of their clients or as one of their opponents, perhaps, give us a call, 800-989-8255, e-mail is [email protected]. And you can also read whatever listeners have to say at our blog, npr.org/blogofthenation. | you can read about the huge odds stacked up; against public defenders in an excerpt we've posted online that's at npr.org/talk if. you have an experience as a public defender or as one of their clients or as one of their opponents. perhaps give us a call 800-989-8255, e-mail is [email protected] and you can also read whatever listeners have to say at our blog | You can read about the huge. odds stacked up against public defenders in an excerpt we've posted online, That's. at npr.org/talk If you have an experience as a public defender or as one of their clients or as one of their. opponents perhaps give us a call 800-989-8255, e-mail is [email protected] And. you can also read. whatever; listeners have to say at our blog | you can read about the huge odds stacked up against public defenders in an excerpt we've posted online. that's at npr.org/talk. if you have an experience as a public defender or as one of their clients or as one of their opponents, perhaps, give us a call, 800-989-8255, e-mail is [email protected]. and you can also read whatever listeners have to say at our blog, npr.org/blogofthenation. |
And Kevin Davis, I have to say, you focused entirely on the city of Chicago, in Cook County there, where despite some difficulties, and I know they're having problems right now with budget cutbacks, this is a well-funded, well-paying jobs. | and kevin davis i have to say you focused. entirely on, the city of chicago in cook county there, where despite some difficulties and i know they're having problems right now, with. budget cutbacks this is a well-funded well-paying | And Kevin; Davis I have to say you focused. entirely on the city of Chicago in Cook County there where despite some. difficulties, and I know they're having problems right now with budget cutbacks this is a well-funded well-paying | and kevin davis, i have to say, you focused entirely on the city of chicago, in cook county there, where despite some difficulties, and i know they're having problems right now with budget cutbacks, this is a well-funded, well-paying jobs. |
Absolutely. And public defenders who stay on and get 10 plus years experience or become supervisors can make over $100,000 a year. It certainly may not match with some of their - colleagues in private practice make, they do start out smaller. But it is a well-paying job. | absolutely; and public defenders. who stay on, and get 10 plus years experience or become supervisors can make over $100,000 a year it certainly may not match with some of. their - colleagues in private practice make they do. start out smaller but it is a well-paying | Absolutely And public defenders, who. stay on and get 10 plus years experience. or become supervisors can. make over $100,000 a year It certainly may not match with some, of their - colleagues in private. practice make they do start out, smaller But it is a well-paying, | absolutely. and public defenders who stay on and get 10 plus years experience or become supervisors can make over $100,000 a year. it certainly may not match with some of their - colleagues in private practice make, they do start out smaller. but it is a well-paying job. |
And that contrast sharply with the situation in a lot of other counties and states around the country where public defenders are, well, even more overwhelmed that they are in Chicago. And make much less money. | and, that contrast sharply, with the situation in a lot of other counties and states around the country, where public defenders are well even more overwhelmed that they are in chicago and make much less | And that contrast sharply with, the situation in a lot of other counties and states around the country where public defenders are well even more overwhelmed that they are in Chicago And make much less | and that contrast sharply with the situation in a lot of other counties and states around the country where public defenders are, well, even more overwhelmed that they are in chicago. and make much less money. |
Yes, absolutely. Now, they very well may have good salaries. But as you mentioned, there have been cutbacks in the Cook County Public Defender's Office. They just lost 13 lawyers, and - but also, the state's attorney office has lost prosecutors. Funding of our criminal justice seems to be on the wane. | yes absolutely now they very well may have good salaries but, as you mentioned there have been cutbacks in the cook. county public defender's office they just lost 13 lawyers and - but also the state's attorney, office has. lost prosecutors funding of our criminal justice seems to be on the | Yes absolutely Now they, very well may have good salaries But as you. mentioned there have been. cutbacks in the. Cook County Public Defender's Office; They just lost 13 lawyers and - but. also the state's attorney office has lost prosecutors. Funding of our criminal justice seems to be. on the | yes, absolutely. now, they very well may have good salaries. but as you mentioned, there have been cutbacks in the cook county public defender's office. they just lost 13 lawyers, and - but also, the state's attorney office has lost prosecutors. funding of our criminal justice seems to be on the wane. |
There was just an article in the National Law Journal that said public defenders' offices across the country are strained beyond capacity. And as far as 2000, the U.S. Justice Department said public defense in the United States is in a chronic state of crisis. So this is nothing really new but it seems to be getting worse. And the strain on these public defenders and the caseloads means that clients are not going to be represented adequately. | there was just an article in the national law journal that said public defenders' offices across the country are strained beyond capacity and as far. as 2000, the u.s. justice department said; public defense in the united states is in a chronic state of crisis so this is, nothing really new but it. seems to be getting worse and the strain. on these public defenders and the caseloads means that clients are not going to, be represented | There was just an article in the National Law Journal that said public defenders' offices across the country are strained beyond capacity And as far as 2000, the U.S Justice Department said, public defense in the United States is in a chronic state of crisis, So this is nothing really new but it seems to be getting worse And the strain on, these public defenders and the caseloads means that clients are not going to be represented | there was just an article in the national law journal that said public defenders' offices across the country are strained beyond capacity. and as far as 2000, the u.s. justice department said public defense in the united states is in a chronic state of crisis. so this is nothing really new but it seems to be getting worse. and the strain on these public defenders and the caseloads means that clients are not going to be represented adequately. |
New Orleans was an extreme example. A few months ago was so underfunded there were hundreds of clients in jail who had never seen their attorneys. And a criminal court judge suspended the prosecution of almost 140 defendants. Let them out of the jail. Said we'll prosecute you later. And these were people charged with felony crimes. So, we all have something at stake when it breaks down like that. It's a dangerous precedent, as you said. | new orleans was, an extreme example a few months ago was so underfunded there were hundreds of clients in jail who had never seen their attorneys and a criminal court judge suspended the prosecution of almost 140 defendants let them out of the jail said, we'll prosecute you. later and; these were people charged with, felony crimes, so we all have something at stake when it breaks down like that it's a dangerous. precedent as you | New Orleans was an extreme example A few months ago was so; underfunded there were hundreds of clients in jail. who had never seen their, attorneys And a criminal court judge suspended the prosecution of almost 140 defendants Let them out of the jail Said we'll prosecute you later And these were people charged. with felony. crimes So we all have something at stake when it breaks down like that, It's a dangerous precedent as you | new orleans was an extreme example. a few months ago was so underfunded there were hundreds of clients in jail who had never seen their attorneys. and a criminal court judge suspended the prosecution of almost 140 defendants. let them out of the jail. said we'll prosecute you later. and these were people charged with felony crimes. so, we all have something at stake when it breaks down like that. it's a dangerous precedent, as you said. |
And even in the, again, the elite Chicago system and this elite squad in the elite Chicago system, Marijane Placek, when she was defending Aloysius in this very high profile case, she had what, probably 25 other cases she was handling at the same time? | and even in the again the elite chicago system and this elite squad in the elite chicago system marijane placek. when she was defending aloysius, in this very high profile. case she, had, what probably 25 other cases she was handling. at the same. | And even in the again the, elite Chicago system and this elite squad in the elite Chicago system Marijane Placek when she was defending Aloysius in this very high profile case she had what probably. 25 other cases she was handling. at the same | and even in the, again, the elite chicago system and this elite squad in the elite chicago system, marijane placek, when she was defending aloysius in this very high profile case, she had what, probably 25 other cases she was handling at the same time? |
They juggle about 25 murder cases at a time. And you know, for, in potential capital murder cases, that's a lot. I mean - I would guess that a private criminal defense attorney doesn't handle a caseload anywhere near that. The public defenders do not have the same kinds of resources that the prosecutors have, which is investigators and experts and the entire police department behind them. | they juggle about 25 murder cases at a time and you know, for in potential capital murder cases that's a lot i mean - i would guess that a private criminal defense attorney doesn't handle a caseload anywhere near that the public defenders do, not have the same kinds of resources; that the prosecutors have which is investigators and experts and the entire police department behind | They, juggle about 25 murder cases, at a time And you know for in potential. capital murder cases that's a lot I mean - I would guess that a, private criminal defense. attorney doesn't handle a caseload anywhere; near that The public defenders do not have the same kinds of resources that the prosecutors have which is investigators and experts and the entire police; department behind | they juggle about 25 murder cases at a time. and you know, for, in potential capital murder cases, that's a lot. i mean - i would guess that a private criminal defense attorney doesn't handle a caseload anywhere near that. the public defenders do not have the same kinds of resources that the prosecutors have, which is investigators and experts and the entire police department behind them. |
So they are strained. And they don't have the budget to hire as many experts or forensics experts. So they're still, it's not an even playing field all the time. However, though, I would add that in Cook County here, the murder taskforce, I think, is unique in the country. And these are really highly skilled, experienced lawyers, because murder cases, of course here in Illinois, the death penalty still exists. The stakes are too high to allow a client to have an inadequate defense. | so they are strained and they don't have the budget to hire as many experts or forensics experts so they're still it's not an even playing field all the time however though i would add that in cook county here. the murder taskforce i think is unique in the country, and these, are really, highly skilled experienced, lawyers because murder cases of course here in illinois the death penalty still exists the stakes are too high to, allow a. client to have, an inadequate | So they are strained And they don't have the budget to hire as many experts or forensics experts So they're still it's not an even playing field all the time However though I would add that in Cook County here the murder taskforce I think is unique in the country And these are really highly skilled, experienced. lawyers because murder cases of. course here in Illinois the death. penalty still exists The stakes are too, high to allow a client to have an inadequate | so they are strained. and they don't have the budget to hire as many experts or forensics experts. so they're still, it's not an even playing field all the time. however, though, i would add that in cook county here, the murder taskforce, i think, is unique in the country. and these are really highly skilled, experienced lawyers, because murder cases, of course here in illinois, the death penalty still exists. the stakes are too high to allow a client to have an inadequate defense. |
Let's see if we can another listener on the line. And this is Mike(ph). Mike's calling us from Chicago. | let's see. if we can another listener on the line and this is mike(ph). mike's calling us from | Let's see if we can another listener on. the line And this is Mike(ph). Mike's. calling us from | let's see if we can another listener on the line. and this is mike(ph). mike's calling us from chicago. |
Howdy. | howdy. |
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Hi. | hi. |
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How are you guys doing? | how are you guys | How are you guys. | how are you guys doing? |
Okay. | okay. |
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Yeah, it's interesting. | yeah it's | Yeah it's | yeah, it's interesting. |
You know, I was calling because, you know, the stereotypes that run with the people who choose public defenders is often incorrect. I'm a president of a company here in Chicago. And I'm helping out this kid who's been - he had a really rough life, you know. Been in gangs as child, abandoned by his father, and recently was, you know, pulled over by Chicago cops and trumped up - charges were placed against him. | you know i was calling because you. know the stereotypes that run with the people who choose public defenders is often incorrect i'm a president of a company here in chicago and i'm helping out this kid who's been - he, had. a really rough life you know been in gangs as child abandoned by his, father and recently was you know pulled over by chicago cops and trumped. up - charges were placed against | You know I was calling. because you know the stereotypes that run with the people who choose public defenders is, often incorrect I'm a president. of a company here in Chicago And I'm helping out, this, kid who's been - he had a really rough; life you know Been in gangs as child abandoned by his father and recently, was you know. pulled over by Chicago cops and trumped up - charges, were placed against | you know, i was calling because, you know, the stereotypes that run with the people who choose public defenders is often incorrect. i'm a president of a company here in chicago. and i'm helping out this kid who's been - he had a really rough life, you know. been in gangs as child, abandoned by his father, and recently was, you know, pulled over by chicago cops and trumped up - charges were placed against him. |
And now, he's fighting because he doesn't have the money to hire his own attorney. He's there fighting and the perception is he's guilty when in essence, the police officers who arrested him were not the ones that testified in court to say that they witnessed what he did. And it's kind of bad because that was his word, you know, ex-gang member, had some charges as a youth. | and now he's fighting because he. doesn't have the money to hire his own attorney he's there fighting and the perception is he's guilty when in essence the police officers who arrested him were not, the ones that testified in court to say that they witnessed. what he did and it's kind of, bad because, that was his word, you know ex-gang member had, some charges as a | And now he's fighting because he doesn't have the money to hire his own attorney He's there. fighting and the perception is he's guilty when in essence the police officers who, arrested him were not the ones. that testified in court to say that they witnessed what he did And it's kind of, bad because that was his word you know ex-gang, member, had some charges as a | and now, he's fighting because he doesn't have the money to hire his own attorney. he's there fighting and the perception is he's guilty when in essence, the police officers who arrested him were not the ones that testified in court to say that they witnessed what he did. and it's kind of bad because that was his word, you know, ex-gang member, had some charges as a youth. |
I've been working with him trying to get him to turn around his life. But yet, because he had public defender, because it's his word against the police officers, you know, we really don't feel that he's going to get a fair shake in court because of the perception everyone has of him. | i've been working with him trying to get him to turn around his life but yet because he had public defender, because, it's his. word against the police officers you know we really don't feel that, he's going to get a fair shake in court because of the perception everyone has of | I've been. working with him trying to get him. to turn around his life, But yet because he had public defender because, it's his word against the police officers, you know we really, don't feel that he's going to get a fair shake in court because of the, perception everyone has of | i've been working with him trying to get him to turn around his life. but yet, because he had public defender, because it's his word against the police officers, you know, we really don't feel that he's going to get a fair shake in court because of the perception everyone has of him. |
And that's a running theme throughout your book, Kevin Davis, of public defenders saying we're going to get the judge to believe our client as opposed to police officers, please. | and that's. a running theme throughout your book kevin davis of public defenders saying we're going to get the judge to. believe our client, as opposed to police officers | And. that's a running theme throughout your book Kevin Davis of public defenders; saying we're going. to get the judge to believe our client as opposed to. police officers. | and that's a running theme throughout your book, kevin davis, of public defenders saying we're going to get the judge to believe our client as opposed to police officers, please. |
Right. | right. |
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Go ahead, Kevin. | go ahead | Go ahead | go ahead, kevin. |
You know, they face that all the time. Public defenders are perceived as bureaucrats, as hacks, there to keep the system moving. You know, public defenders aren't apologists for criminals and they don't condone crime. They're there to serve, you know, a vital function. And I do believe that they do challenge the police and do so effectively. And they can. I've seen ferocious cross-examinations of Chicago police detectives that have revealed truths that otherwise would not have come out. | you know they face that all. the time public defenders are perceived as bureaucrats as hacks there to keep the system moving you know public defenders aren't apologists for criminals and. they. don't condone crime they're there, to serve you know a vital function and i do believe that they do. challenge the police and do so, effectively and they can i've seen, ferocious, cross-examinations of chicago police detectives that have revealed truths that otherwise would not have come | You. know they face that all the time Public defenders are perceived, as bureaucrats. as hacks there to keep the system moving You know public. defenders aren't apologists for criminals and they don't condone crime; They're there to serve; you know a, vital function And. I do believe that they do challenge the police and do so effectively And they can I've seen ferocious, cross-examinations of Chicago police detectives that have revealed truths, that otherwise. would not have come | you know, they face that all the time. public defenders are perceived as bureaucrats, as hacks, there to keep the system moving. you know, public defenders aren't apologists for criminals and they don't condone crime. they're there to serve, you know, a vital function. and i do believe that they do challenge the police and do so effectively. and they can. i've seen ferocious cross-examinations of chicago police detectives that have revealed truths that otherwise would not have come out. |
Yet, we've also heard stories - and not necessarily in Chicago and certainly not in this particular squad - of public defenders found dozing at the defense table and various other, you know, declining to defend their clients vigorously, shall we say. | yet we've also heard stories - and not, necessarily in chicago and certainly not in this particular squad - of public defenders found; dozing at the defense table and various other you; know declining to defend their clients vigorously shall we | Yet we've also heard stories - and not necessarily in Chicago and certainly not in this particular squad. - of public defenders found. dozing at the defense table and various other you know declining, to defend their clients vigorously shall we | yet, we've also heard stories - and not necessarily in chicago and certainly not in this particular squad - of public defenders found dozing at the defense table and various other, you know, declining to defend their clients vigorously, shall we say. |
There have certainly been cases like that. | there have certainly, been; cases like | There have certainly been cases, like | there have certainly been cases like that. |
Yeah. | yeah. |
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And certainly - and they're not representative of a profession anymore than you or I are representative of journalism at large. Yes, there are problems. There are cops who lie. There are - but there are many more cops who are good cops. There are detectives who take shortcuts, but there are probably more detectives who do their job the right way. I think everybody goes into this with, with good intentions and tries to do the right thing. | and certainly - and they're not representative of a profession anymore than you or i. are, representative of journalism at large, yes there are, problems there are cops who lie there are - but there are many more cops who are good, cops there are detectives, who take shortcuts but there are probably more detectives who, do their job the. right way, i think everybody goes into. this with with good intentions and tries to do the right | And. certainly - and they're not representative of a profession anymore than you or I are. representative. of journalism at large Yes there are problems There, are, cops who lie There are - but there are many more cops, who are good cops There are detectives who take shortcuts but there are probably more detectives who do. their job the right way I think everybody goes into this with with good intentions and tries to do the right | and certainly - and they're not representative of a profession anymore than you or i are representative of journalism at large. yes, there are problems. there are cops who lie. there are - but there are many more cops who are good cops. there are detectives who take shortcuts, but there are probably more detectives who do their job the right way. i think everybody goes into this with, with good intentions and tries to do the right thing. |
Well, Mike, we… | well mike | Well Mike | well, mike, we… |
I'm sorry? | i'm | I'm | i'm sorry? |
Go ahead. I was just going to say we wish your friend the best of luck. | go ahead i was just. going to say we wish your friend the best of | Go ahead I was just going to say we; wish your friend the best of | go ahead. i was just going to say we wish your friend the best of luck. |
Yeah. You know, and I - you know what, having gone to every one of his court cases and seeing them, those - the PD's and their role, I have the utmost respect for them because they are, they're working very hard and they have a lot of caseloads, a lot of cases and working hard for the people they represent. I admire them greatly. I think that they're underpaid. | yeah you know, and i - you know what having gone to every one of his court cases and, seeing them those - the, pd's and their role i have the utmost respect for them because they, are they're working very hard and they have a lot of caseloads a, lot of cases and. working hard for the people they represent i admire them greatly i think that they're | Yeah You know and. I - you know what having gone to every one of his court cases. and seeing them those, - the PD's and their role I have the utmost respect for them because they are they're working very hard. and they have a lot of caseloads a lot of, cases and working hard for the people they represent I admire them greatly I think, that they're, | yeah. you know, and i - you know what, having gone to every one of his court cases and seeing them, those - the pd's and their role, i have the utmost respect for them because they are, they're working very hard and they have a lot of caseloads, a lot of cases and working hard for the people they represent. i admire them greatly. i think that they're underpaid. |
All right, Mike. Thanks very much. | all right mike thanks very | All right Mike Thanks very | all right, mike. thanks very much. |
Thank you. | thank | Thank | thank you. |
So long. Let's turn now to Leslie(ph). Leslie is with us from Charlotte, North Carolina. | so long, let's turn now to leslie(ph). leslie is with us from charlotte north | So long Let's turn now to Leslie(ph). Leslie is with us from Charlotte North | so long. let's turn now to leslie(ph). leslie is with us from charlotte, north carolina. |
Yes. Hello. | yes | Yes | yes. hello. |
Hi. | hi. |
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Hi. | hi. |
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This is something that I don't understand about law enforcement. Be it police, the DA, the FBI. They have to understand that they are equally on trial along with the suspect. That their tactics has to be thoroughly investigated, you know, as well as the tactics of the suspect. And that's necessary, you know, for the fundamental decency of this country. | this. is something that i don't understand about law enforcement, be it police, the da the fbi they have to understand that they are equally on trial along with the suspect that their tactics has to be thoroughly investigated you, know as well as, the tactics of the suspect and that's necessary you know for the fundamental decency of this | This is something that I don't understand about, law enforcement Be, it police the DA the FBI They have to understand that they, are equally on trial along with the suspect That, their. tactics has to be thoroughly. investigated you know as well as the tactics of the suspect And that's necessary you. know, for the fundamental, decency of this | this is something that i don't understand about law enforcement. be it police, the da, the fbi. they have to understand that they are equally on trial along with the suspect. that their tactics has to be thoroughly investigated, you know, as well as the tactics of the suspect. and that's necessary, you know, for the fundamental decency of this country. |
I'm a paralegal. I have, you know, dealt with a few police officers that are resentful of this. And I tried to explain to them that, you know, you absolutely have to do this if you have a constitution. And they don't seem to realize, they're not taught that in school or, you know, in training, I should I say. And why this isn't made more clear, I don't understand. | i'm a paralegal i have, you know dealt with a few. police. officers that are resentful of this and i tried to explain to them that. you know you absolutely have to do this, if you have a constitution and they don't, seem to realize they're not taught that in school, or, you know in training i should i say, and why this isn't made more clear i don't | I'm a paralegal I, have you know dealt with a few police officers that are resentful of this And I tried to explain to them that you know you absolutely have to do this if you have a constitution And. they; don't, seem, to realize they're not taught that in school or you know in training I should I say And why this. isn't made more, clear I don't | i'm a paralegal. i have, you know, dealt with a few police officers that are resentful of this. and i tried to explain to them that, you know, you absolutely have to do this if you have a constitution. and they don't seem to realize, they're not taught that in school or, you know, in training, i should i say. and why this isn't made more clear, i don't understand. |
Well, Kevin Davis, was it your perception that cops did get training in that or that this sense of, hey, we're the good guys, overwhelms them? | well kevin davis was it your perception that cops did get training in that or that this sense of. hey we're the good guys overwhelms | Well Kevin. Davis was it your perception, that cops did get training in that or that this sense of hey we're the good guys overwhelms | well, kevin davis, was it your perception that cops did get training in that or that this sense of, hey, we're the good guys, overwhelms them? |
Well, sure. Overall, that's the perception. And I think the caller's insight is right on the money. You know, both sides are representing the law. And people do tend to forget that. A public defender serves a role just as important as the prosecutor. | well. sure overall that's the perception and i think the caller's insight is right on the money you know both sides, are representing the law and people do tend to forget that a public defender serves a role just as, important as the | Well sure Overall that's the perception And, I think the caller's insight is right on the money You know both sides are. representing the law. And people do tend to forget that A, public defender serves a role just as important as the | well, sure. overall, that's the perception. and i think the caller's insight is right on the money. you know, both sides are representing the law. and people do tend to forget that. a public defender serves a role just as important as the prosecutor. |
Now, I interviewed one of officer Eric Lee's partners who survived the shooting. And I was ready for him to tell me, I don't know, how awful these public defenders are and everything. But he understood her role, Marijane's role. He didn't agree with it. He didn't like her. He found her brusque. He didn't like seeing her defending the man accused of killing his partner. But he understood it. And I just had lunch with another police officer recently. He told me the very same thing. | now i interviewed one of officer eric lee's partners who survived the, shooting and i was ready for him to tell me. i don't know how awful these public defenders are and everything, but he understood her role marijane's, role he didn't agree with it he didn't like her he found her brusque he didn't like seeing her defending the man accused of killing; his partner. but he understood it and i just had; lunch with another police officer recently; he told me the very. same | Now. I interviewed one of officer Eric Lee's, partners who survived the, shooting And I was ready for him to tell me. I don't, know how awful these public defenders are and everything But he understood her, role Marijane's role He didn't agree with it He didn't. like her He found her brusque He didn't like seeing her defending the man accused of killing his partner But he understood it. And I just had lunch with another police officer recently He told me the very same | now, i interviewed one of officer eric lee's partners who survived the shooting. and i was ready for him to tell me, i don't know, how awful these public defenders are and everything. but he understood her role, marijane's role. he didn't agree with it. he didn't like her. he found her brusque. he didn't like seeing her defending the man accused of killing his partner. but he understood it. and i just had lunch with another police officer recently. he told me the very same thing. |
He said, yeah, you know, we don't like them, but we get it. You know? So I think those who do work in the system understand it. And I think outsiders have a harder time understanding that. You know, when a public defender goes into court, they really are representing all of us. They serve this watchdog function. They are there to make sure that the prosecutor proves their case beyond a reasonable doubt. | he said yeah you know we don't like them but we get it you; know? so i think those who do work in the system, understand it and i think outsiders have a harder time understanding that you know when a public defender goes into court they really are representing all of us they serve this watchdog function they are there to make sure that the prosecutor, proves their case beyond a reasonable | He said yeah, you know we don't like them. but we get it You know? So I, think those who do work, in. the system understand it And I think outsiders have a harder, time understanding that You know when a public defender, goes. into court they, really are representing all of us They serve this watchdog function They are there to make sure that the prosecutor proves, their case beyond a reasonable, | he said, yeah, you know, we don't like them, but we get it. you know? so i think those who do work in the system understand it. and i think outsiders have a harder time understanding that. you know, when a public defender goes into court, they really are representing all of us. they serve this watchdog function. they are there to make sure that the prosecutor proves their case beyond a reasonable doubt. |
They're there to make sure that police don't take confessions from people inappropriately, that their searches and seizures are done by the book. These are the little things that people don't see that happen in court everyday. And actually, they're… | they're there to make sure that police don't take confessions from people inappropriately that their searches and seizures are done by the; book these are the little things that people don't see that happen in court everyday and actually | They're there to make sure that police, don't take confessions from people inappropriately that their searches and, seizures are done by the book These are, the little things that, people don't see that happen in court everyday And actually, | they're there to make sure that police don't take confessions from people inappropriately, that their searches and seizures are done by the book. these are the little things that people don't see that happen in court everyday. and actually, they're… |
Instead one of you public fakers(ph). | instead one of you public | Instead one. of you public | instead one of you public fakers(ph). |
Thank you. | thank | Thank | thank you. |
And they're doing it at the very cutting edge. This is - these are, if mistakes are being made, if injustices are being committed, they're being done against the poor, by definition - the people who can't afford their own lawyer, and that's where it matters most. | and they're doing. it at the very cutting edge, this is - these are if mistakes are being made if injustices are being committed they're being done against; the poor by definition - the people who can't afford their own lawyer and that's where it matters | And they're doing it at the very cutting edge This is - these are if mistakes are, being made if injustices are. being committed they're being, done against the poor. by definition - the, people who can't. afford their own, lawyer and that's where it matters | and they're doing it at the very cutting edge. this is - these are, if mistakes are being made, if injustices are being committed, they're being done against the poor, by definition - the people who can't afford their own lawyer, and that's where it matters most. |
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