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krishnamurti_discussions

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Let's move. So I've brought order in my life, daily living, waking hours, there is order and therefore the brain is absolutely quiet, incorruptible in that state. And when it wakes up, it has got vitality - that is, not yours, but what I am saying.
Now I am enquiring because I don't know - I am enquiring into meditation. Right? What does it mean?
I see first, the mind must be absolutely quiet, because if it is not quiet it cannot see clearly. Right? That's all.
(Inaudible) No, I see if I want to listen to you, I must hear what you are saying - I can't be distracted. Right sir? I want to listen to you, therefore my attention is effortless, because I'm curious, eager to find out what you want to say.
Therefore there is no effort. I see very clearly - you understand sir? - that to listen, to see, the mind must be completely quiet.
Right? That's all. And my interest is to listen to you, my interest is to see clearly, therefore the mind is quiet.
I think we're going to enter some difficulty... Oh, lots of difficulties. ...at this point because we're going to start talking in contradiction as words. In order to listen, the mind is quiet, but listening, listening to what - sound?
That sound emphasising the quiet - so once again. So you said that the mind must be quiet in order to listen, but that's a contradiction in terms - quiet for listening. No, sir.
The words are contradictory but not the actuality. That's all right, if you have understood it, then it's simple. To see clearly... ...there must be no colour in the mind.
That's all, sir. That's all, that's all. And to make the mind quiet is absurd.
Right? To force the mind to be quiet is absurd - it's not quiet. Or to follow a system which will make the mind quiet, is absolutely silly - whether it is offered by the greatest guru or the lowliest of the gurus.
So I see, in my enquiry into meditation, I see, there is an insight into the quality of a mind that is quiet. Have you? No?
You haven't, have you? Why not? If you want to see the tree, your girl, the mountain, hear what others are saying, you have to be quiet, haven't you?
What is the difficulty? Therefore your difficulty is, you don't want to listen, you don't want to see. You see for an instant and then it disappears.
Comment madame? Ah, bien, bien, bien. Why does it disappear - you see it for an instant, it disappears.
All right, let it disappear. You want to have the whole thing, don't you? You're so greedy.
Just one second of perception is enough. So I'm enquiring into meditation. I see my body must be quiet, relaxed.
Then in that state of relaxation, the blood goes much easier to the brain. You understand, sir? Therefore they advocate sitting in posture, you know, sitting cross-legged, all that game.
Or you can lie down or you can do anything, walk, it doesn't matter. So the body must be sensitive, alive, quick, supple, mustn't it? Is your body quick, supple, sensitive?
Obviously not, because you overeat, not enough exercise, smoke, drink - carry on, and yet you say, 'Now I'm carrying on my daily life, I want a quiet mind. Tell me how to work at it.' You understand?
So you want all your pleasures and get the other pleasure. Oh, come on, sir - too childish all this! Now, the problem is, can thought be still?
Mind means thought, the whole mechanism of thinking. How is thought to be still? You just said that thought is still, when you are really interested to observe.
Yes, sir, I'm examining sir - is your thought quiet? No. Therefore you're not enquiring.
That's right. There is a part of me which just sits there. Therefore you're not enquiring - I say I'm enquiring.
I say, can thought be quiet? Operate when necessary, logically, sanely, impersonally, vitally, and the rest of the time quiet - you understand? - not all the time operating.
Sir, if you are enquiring, thought is already quiet. Sir, you are saying if you're doing this thought is quiet, but you're not doing it, are you? No, therefore we are enquiring - I'm enquiring for you.
Look, all our life is spent in thinking, isn't it? Most of our life is the activity of thought. Right?
Thought is going on endlessly, consciously or unconsciously. Is that so or not? Now how do you bring this mechanism to an end for a while?
(Inaudible) Yes, sir, what do you do about it - therefore don't talk. I want to find out. I want to find out, , I want to put my blood into it to find out, if thought must all the time go on.
Or I say, 'Is there an interval between two thoughts? Or is thought one continuous movement taking different forms?' You're not enquiring, you've never done anything of this.
There's an interval between thoughts. There is an interval between two thoughts. The lady says yes, I know that interval, she says.
Now what happens in that interval? Is it an interval of tiredness - please enquire, don't say no or yes - an interval caused by tiredness, by boredom, by daydreaming, or is it a conscious interval? (Inaudible) I am asking the question for you, not for me, you understand sir?
You're not asking it for everybody? I'm asking for everybody who is here. Then you say you're asking for you, that's for you.
Are we moving together? No, we're not, for the simple reason, you have never gone into this whether the mind, which is the instrument of thought, which is - thought being memory, experience, knowledge and all that - all the time operating. And I say I am enquiring for you.
Do you find any time that this thought naturally comes to an end? Or is there an interval between two thoughts? Or if that interval is laziness, slackness, tiredness, or are you aware of this interval?
And if you are aware of this interval, then what takes place? There's energy in that interval - that's what energy is. Energy is in that interval.
To pick up again another thought? Are you guessing? Unfortunately - this is our trouble - you've not gone into this.
We recognise what solution and what you are saying at the same time. Right, I understand madam. Where are we now?
So you recognise it. As far as I'm concerned, what you are saying is, if I give my whole mind and everything I've got to enquire, then my mind is still. I didn't say that, sir.
I simply said, if you want to listen to somebody you have to be fairly quiet, haven't you? That's all. (Inaudible) No, but...
Wait, wait. And I want to listen, listen, not 'I want to' - is there a listening without a word? There may be.
I give it up. Experiment, sir, do it now, find out if you can listen without a word. Find out what is the quality of that listening, and find out whether that quality is imagined or real.
Sir, when one tries to do this, the weakness I have is that the mind gives instructions to itself. Yes, sir, that's part of thinking. You see, I wish you had never heard the word 'meditation'.
I wish you had never heard what it is to be quiet. I wish you'd never heard what may happen beyond, when the mind is quiet. If you had never heard any of these things, but only had to deal with your life as it is - you understand sir?
- as it is - that is, our conflict, our misery, our sorrow, in the resolution of that, the other thing may happen. But you haven't solved it, but you want the other. Right sir?
That's why I said, if you could start with not knowing. I don't know if there is a reality which is not touched by thought - I really don't know. I don't really know if there is a mind which is so religious - not in the orthodox sense of that word - religious, that is capable of seeing what is sacred.
Is there anything sacred in life? Go on, sir. Will you enquire into this?
Can we go together into this to find out if there is anything sacred in life? If we don't find it life becomes meaningless, doesn't it? No?
Maybe that's why it is meaningless. It is now and I don't know anything else. You people don't know, can't move.
Look, sir, I'll go on. I want to find out if there is anything sacred in life - sacred not in the image which man has created, not in an idea that there is sacredness, not in the religious books or their idols, because all that has been put together by man. Right?
Jesus, Buddha, they've all been put together by thought, by thought which is in agony, which is in despair, which is tremendously in sorrow and pain and fear, and therefore it says, 'That is sacred.' You understand? Right?
Isn't that clear? And I say that's not sacred, obviously. I used to know a friend.
As he was walking one day in the woods he saw a piece of wood which had the face of a human being. So he took it home and put it on the mantelpiece. He looked at it and said what an extraordinary thing that is, because it had vitality - rain, people walking on it, had produced this shape.
And one day he brought to it, that piece of wood, a flower, and put it beside it. And it still looked more beautiful. So every day he added a flower, and gradually within a year that became the most sacred thing in his life.
You follow all this? Therefore that is not sacred. I can make that piece of wood into the most sacred thing, like the altar put together, or, you know, the Christians, their myths, their idols are just the fantasy of the mind.
That's not sacred. I want to find out if there is anything sacred in life; that is, in living, dying, in love. Are we walking together?
Now how do I find out? Because I see that if there is no discovery of that beauty, life becomes rather shallow and empty. I can invent a lot of things, sit meditating endlessly about something, all that becomes very, very superficial and rather childish and stupid.
So I say, out. I push away all that. Then what is sacred?
Is love sacred - the love that has anxiety, fear, jealousy, that dominates, that possesses, the human relationship which is called love which is sex, pleasure, pain, anxiety, all that - is that sacred? I don't know - what do you say? Obviously not.
Obviously not, why? Because you have shown it to us. I didn't show it, sir, watch it.
You say, why. I'll show you. That piece of wood became sacred.
So thought made it sacred. Thought has made love into what it is. So thought cannot make anything sacred.
Oh, come on, sir. Whether it is the Buddha, Christ or Krishna or whatever it is, an idea - thought cannot make anything sacred. You understand the beauty of it, sir?
To discover that, to come upon that - feeling, thought can never make the tree beautiful, the mountain beautiful, your face lovely, thought cannot make it, therefore thought, which is the response of memory, thought which is measurable can never be sacred. Right? So that which is sacred is the moment when thought is not.
At that moment, thought says, 'I'll measure and I want more of it' then it becomes pleasure. And thought pursues endlessly pleasure. And so all the temples, all the churches, all the mosques are put together by thought for pleasure, therefore there is nothing sacred in it.
How can... Wait, wait, this is sit - I'm showing it to you. So can the mind be without thought, and use thought when necessary?
Which means, the mind being empty of thought can use thought, and live with thought, in harmony, not one and the other. And this is meditation. So that the mind has no illusion; and illusion arises when you want to achieve.
When you say, 'I must attain that,' and then you can invent something which you will attain and think you've got it. But always if you can remember that piece of wood on the mantelpiece - you follow? (laughs) So my mind, so the whole of my mind is sacred - you understand?
- not its content is sacred. I wonder if you're meeting all this - but that quality of mind that's completely empty. And out of that emptiness, space and silence, thought can operate.
This is all my description, you understand? - it's not yours. Now if a few of us see this together, and it is not mine or yours, but it is so, then we create a new generation.
You understand? And then you won't be bothered about changing the people, changing the heart of the people in power. They are not worth changing.
Any man who is in power is corrupt. What time is it? Have we any of us travelled together?
Up to a point. Is that good enough? (Inaudible) Let them destroy.
They are destroying. (Inaudible) They are destroying the world, all the politicians put together are destroying the world. What are we going to do - vote them out?
You and I vote against them - % of the people want that kind of thing, they want power, position, prestige. We want to change the heart of others, without changing our own hearts. Don't bother about the others, begin with yourself.
That sounds a clich'e but it isn't. I would like to clear up a point. You said, I think, that nothing is sacred.
And then you went on to say, about the pursuit of pleasure and I didn't understand how you connect that. I don't remember that, sir. I can't repeat it.
Would you... I don't know... You were talking about the enquiry into what is sacred. Then you followed on and you said that nothing is sacred.
I know - I've got it, I've got it. I understand, sir. Look, sir, when there is happiness or a great enjoyment, you learn a great deal.
It is only when the mind is happy, relaxed, enjoying, you learn a great deal. And in enquiring into what is sacred, perhaps there is a second when you see, when the mind sees itself completely without being anything. That moment is the most extraordinary moment.
And having seen that thought comes along and says, 'I must have more of it', and that is the beginning of pleasure, and not enjoyment. You understand? Joy is something beyond pleasure.
But once having smelt it, tasted it, thought says, 'I must have more of it'. Don't you know this? You have had sex and once you have had it thought says, 'Let's go on with it'.
You see a beautiful sunset, at that moment there is no thought at all. There is complete enjoyment of that beauty. Then thought comes along a few minutes later and says, 'Let's go back to that Mountain again, it was such a lovely thing.'
So thought is always avoiding pain and pursuing pleasure. This is so simple. To find out what is sacred the mind must know the total content of itself.
And its content makes consciousness. You understand, sir? Consciousness is its content.
If there is no content there is something else, isn't there? If my content of my mind is worry, resentment, wanting to fulfil, bitterness, anxiety, fear, afraid of so many things, wanting to do this and that, that is the content of my consciousness. When the content is not - you understand?
- there is something entirely different. And we try to make one of the contents into the sacred thing. You understand?
That's why one must know the total content, conscious or unconscious. And that's another problem. As this is the last discussion or dialogue, what should we talk over together this morning?
Sir, could we go on with yesterday's discussion, the understanding of order and what is order? Could we go on what we were discussing yesterday about order - what is the understanding of order. What is a religious mind and is it possible in this day and age to live such a life?
What is a religious life and is it possible in modern times to live it. How can I ask the right question when my mind is so confused? How can I ask the right question when I've got a rather confused mind.
Is that it? But we do ask questions, don't we?, though we have confused minds and rather disturbed minds, we ask questions. And the gentleman what is the right question to ask when one is confused.
Right sir? (In Italian) Avanti signor. You have affirmed that love is without object and without a continuity.
What is this statement that has been made, that love is without object and has no continuity? I heard this, we've heard this from you. Perhaps we can answer all these questions if we go into the problem of time.
Would you like to go into that? Does that interest you, because that will include how to understand order, and perhaps we can then find out for ourselves if there is such a thing as love without an object and without time. Because love without continuity means love without time.
Right? Bene? Bene.
Are you interested in this? Yes. You see, we've always been brought up in the prolongation of time, using time, which is measure, as a means of achievement, both outwardly, physiologically, as well as psychologically.
(I see two or three people who are yawning - I hope you had a nice night). (laughter) You know, it is really a very important question, this, because if we could understand it, really, deeply, then perhaps we'll solve this question of love, order, and what it means to live neither in the past nor in the future. So I think it is important to go into this question.
We use time as measure, both outwardly and inwardly. We use time as measure as going from here to there, that is, covering the distance needs time, physically. And we also think or, being educated in our culture, we think that psychologically, inwardly, inside the skin as it were, we need time to understand, we need time to conquer, we need time to break down our bondages, we need time to understand sorrow.
So we use time as a measure both outwardly and inwardly. Right? This is a dialogue, please - I'm not talking by myself, which I can do in my room.
We are discussing, trying to take the journey together. I need time to go from here to Geneva. I need time if my body is rather unwilling, the muscles are rather hard, I need time to make them supple - it will take a week.